Wrap-Up Of Our National Democratic Poll Seminar

I live in a neighborhood in Philadelphia called University City. This past week, most of the students who live in the area have moved out, as the semester is over. After yesterday, I kind of feel like our little investigation into national Democratic nomination polling came to an end. Like a semester, it lasted around four months, and I think was quite informative. Here are the conclusions I have drawn from our studies:
  1. National Democratic nomination preference polls include too wide a net of people in their sample, typically somewhere between 35%-50% of the Voting Age Population. Typically, outside of New Hampshire, only about 10-15% of the Voting Age Population participates in Democratic Presidential primaries. However, at this early date, it would not be wise to significantly narrow the sample universe, as it is too early to know who will actually form the electorate in the Democratic primary / caucus season. That might change, come January 2008.

  2. Some early indications of voter turnout favor Clinton and Edwards, while others favor Obama. Specifically, Clinton and Edwards do well among older poll respondents and Clinton does better among self-identified Democrats than among Independents who lean Democratic. However, Obama does better among poll respondents who are paying more attention to the campaign. When averaged together, these effects might very well cancel each other out / compliment each other.

  3. Clinton does better in polls where undecided respondents are pushed to make a decision, thus emphasizing her advantage among voters who are not paying close attention to the campaign. However, Obama does better in automated IVR polls like Rasmussen that have a history of including more young voters in their samples. Once again, when combined, these skews might cancel each other out / compliment each other.

  4. Al Gore draws a significant percentage of support (roughly 10-15%) from all three "top tier" candidates) simply by being included in the question. This usefully shows, once again, that there is a significant amount of "soft" support for all candidates. However, Al Gore is also currently not running, thus making it quite difficult to justify including him in polls that are meant to be an accurate snapshot of public opinion on the current campaign. The solution here is probably for polls to ask "someone else" as an option for respondents, rather than to name specific candidates who have not announced. Overall, until polls settle on a consistent list of candidates to include in their questions, it will be necessary to collect two different polling averages, one with Gore, and one without.

  5. As demonstrated by the soft support of undecideds, the still large number of potential Gore supporters, the varying movement in the national campaign over the past couple of months, and the wide difference in results between different polls conducted at the same time, there is a lot of movement yet to be had in the Democratic primary season. However, it is probably wrong to assume that said movement is on the level of 2004, either to the degree to which early Lieberman "supporters" abandoned him before Iowa throughout 2003, or to the degree that Democrats flocked to Kerry after the 2004 Iowa caucuses. Increased star power in the field, a higher level of voter engagement, increased Democratic satisfaction with the field, and the lack of a 2004 "perfect momentum storm" are among the reasons that will probably reduce poll movement compared to the 2004 primary season.

  6. A few of side notes. First, there does not appear to be a large "anti-Hillary" vote in the Democratic electorate. Second, social pressure to say you are voting for a woman or an African-American does not appear to be artificially inflating either Clinton or Obama's poll numbers. Third, while Clinton performs slightly worse than Edwards or Obama in general election trial heats, the gap is not massive (currently between 2.8% and 6.9% depending on the matchup). While this is not currently indicative of an "electability" problem, and is more indicative of Clinton's longer exposure to the Republican Noise Machine, if these numbers hold, or even increase, through January of 2008, that could change.
In the end, this leaves us roughly where we were back in January: averaging polls. However, I think we now have a much better idea as to why national polls can be so different from each other, and yet all still be valid. It has also left me with a methodology to measure the current state of the national campaign in which I have a decent amount of confidence. Having a way to accurately measure the campaign is an important first step toward developing a means to influence it. To this end, it would be particularly useful if more national polls had larger sample sizes and released detailed crosstabs from within those sample sizes. It is in this way that live-interview polls commissioned by large media outlets, which are invariably have smaller sample sizes and are more hush-hush about their methodologies, remain our least useful measures of the national campaign. However, despite this, we do have some good info now, and as such we can move forward. From now on, my discussions of polls will probably be restricted to updates on the state of the national campaign, and not spill over into meta discussions on polling itself. I hope you got as much out of our polling seminar as I did, and are now excited to moving forward onto other, more qualitative topics.

The seminar's syllabus can be found in the extended entry.

Syllabus: Understanding 2008 Democratic National Nomination Polls

Main Texts: MyDD.com, Pollster.com, Real Clear Politics, Polling Report, Rasmussen Reports Final Projects

Display:


I'll momentarily post some useful (none / 0)

"with Gore" and "without Gore" averages.


by NuevoLiberal on Sat May 19, 2007 at 06:39:41 PM EST

Re: I'll momentarily post some useful (none / 0)

i wish pollsters would just stop polling for Gore. It makes no sense at all to keep doing so.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sat May 19, 2007 at 06:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It does. (none / 0)

Please see below


by NuevoLiberal on Sat May 19, 2007 at 07:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll momentarily post some useful (none / 0)

with 10% to 15% support it does makes sense. That's It's a prelimitary a huge part of the electorate that has a specific choice.

Instead of polling the race for president, it's polling preference for president. With so much time to go for the primaries begin, both have plusses and drawbacks.

The one tells us who we want to see in the race, the other tells us how the training for the hundered yards dash is going.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Sun May 20, 2007 at 08:45:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

With and Without Gore 2008 poll numbers (3.00 / 1)

From May Polls thus far (from RCP):

A) Polls that asked both the "with Gore" and "without Gore" questions:

1.

FNOD, 5/15-16

With Gore:

Clinton: 35%
Obama: 20
Gore: 13
Edwards: 13
Richardson: 4

Clinton-Obama Margin: 15

Without Gore (with shifts in parentheses):

Clinton: 39% (+4)
Obama: 23 (+3)
Edwards: 15 (+2)
Richardson: 4 (0)

Clinton-Obama Margin: 16

Interesting "without Clinton" results:
Obama: 34 (+14)
Gore: 23 (+10)
Edwards: 16 (+3)
Richardson: 5 (+1)
(which shows that Obama and Gore have the best capacity to pull support from Hillary)

2.

Cook/RT, 5/11-13:

With Gore:

Clinton: 32%
Obama: 24
Gore: 10
Edwards: 13
Richardson: 3

Clinton-Obama Margin: 12

Without Gore (with shifts in parentheses):

Clinton: 40% (+8)
Obama: 25 (+1)
Edwards: 13 (0)
Richardson: 2 (-1)

Clinton-Obama Margin: 15

3.

CNN/OR 5/4-6
With Gore:

Clinton: 38%
Obama: 24
Gore: 12
Edwards: 12
Richardson: 5

Clinton-Obama Margin: 14

Without Gore (with shifts in parentheses):

Clinton: 41% (+3)
Obama: 27 (+3)
Edwards: 14 (+2)
Richardson: 6 (+1)

Clinton-Obama Margin: 14

4.


USA Today

With Gore:

Clinton: 38%
Obama: 23
Gore: 14
Edwards: 12
Richardson: 2

Clinton-Obama Margin: 15

Without Gore (with shifts in parentheses):

Clinton: 45% (+7)
Obama: 27 (+4)
Edwards: 14 (+2)
Richardson: 3 (+1)

Clinton-Obama Margin: 18

Averages:

With Gore:

Clinton: 35.75%
Obama: 22.75
Gore: 12.25
Edwards: 12.5
Richardson: 3.5

Clinton-Obama Margin: 13
Also, Obama+Gore = 35%

Without Gore (with shifts in parentheses):

Clinton: 41.25% (+5.5)
Obama: 27 (+2.75)
Edwards: 14 (+1.5)
Richardson: 3 (+0.25)

Clinton-Obama Margin: 14.25


B. Polls that asked or reported only the "without Gore" question:

1.

ARG, 5/9-12

Clinton: 39%
Obama: 22
Edwards: 19
Richardson: 2

Clinton-Obama Margin: 17

2.

Rasmussen, 5/07-10

Clinton: 35%
Obama: 33
Edwards: 14
Richardson: 3

Clinton-Obama Margin: 2

Average:

Clinton: 37%
Obama: 27.5
Edwards: 16.5
Richardson: 2.5

Clinton-Obama Margin: 9.5

C. Poll that asked or reported only "with Gore" question:
Gallup, 5/10-13

With Gore:

Clinton: 35%
Obama: 26
Gore: 16
Edwards: 12
Richardson: 2

Clinton-Obama Margin: 9

I finally note that Obama's and Gore's in this last poll add up to 38, 7 points more than Clinton.


by NuevoLiberal on Sat May 19, 2007 at 07:33:31 PM EST

Correction: (3.00 / 1)

in the Gallup poll, Obama's (26) and Gore's (16) numbers add up to 42, 7 points more than Clinton's 35%.


by NuevoLiberal on Sat May 19, 2007 at 07:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please see the updated new diary: (none / 0)

May 2008 poll numbers with and without Gore


by NuevoLiberal on Sun May 20, 2007 at 07:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Error (none / 0)

In the Cook/RT polling with Gore (A2), the margin between Clinton/Obama is 8 points, not 12.


by gradysdad on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:39:31 PM EST

please (none / 0)

see the new diary. I made a few errors with the Cook/RT poll, but tried to correct them in the new version. I use a math program that is more powerful, but is not a spreadsheet and requires manual entry of numbers (where I made the mistakes). In the future, I am planning to employ some online spreadsheets so that data entry itself can be visible to the readers and so we'll get a good system going.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun May 20, 2007 at 07:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrap-Up Of Our National Democratic Poll Semina (none / 0)

I still find it hard to find interview method polling believable.  Any time you put human interaction into a poll, your bound to induce an effect.  People tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, people tell machines what they feel.


by enarjay on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:59:02 PM EST

Corporate polling vs. "Open" polling. (3.00 / 1)

The relative uselessness of polls conducted by large media outlets often reflects the proprietary inclinations of consumer markets, and furthers a consumerist culture.

The more usefull polls, by the people whose "bottom line" is knowledge -- they deal in open markets, and purvey open culture.

Just a side note, as this ties in pretty well with one of the recent main themes of the site. Good post. I like this way of cataloguing the thinking done at this site.


Progress is Personal | Connie Brennan | My opinions are mine alone
by msnook on Sun May 20, 2007 at 02:57:19 AM EST

Re: Hillary's numbers (1.00 / 1)

No matter how you poll it-and no matter how hard Hillary bashers try- She is leading-big time- Please spend your time working on the issues-not the spin -not productive and so Republican-


by Menemshasunset on Sun May 20, 2007 at 11:05:16 AM EST

Re: Hillary's numbers (3.00 / 1)

erd place in the first state is a long way from being ahead "Big time".


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun May 20, 2007 at 12:41:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"MORE ATTENTIVE"? (none / 0)

..poll respondents who are paying more attention to the campaign...

Chris:

What, exactly, is a "poll respondent who is paying more attention to the campaign"?  How are such people determined?  Is is subjectively determined, where they are self-described as "attentive"?  Is it objectively determined by, perhaps, a test concerning current events with minimum passing score?

Thanks in advance!


by ChicagoDude on Sun May 20, 2007 at 11:50:55 AM EST

Re: Dems are really fucking the country over,, (none / 0)

and what is MyDD doing about it?  

You've got Sirota on breaking blue and you aren't covering one word of his articles on how Rangel is selling us out on trade - AGAIN.


Follow the money
by dkmich on Sun May 20, 2007 at 02:08:48 PM EST

Re: Dems are really fucking the country over,, (none / 0)

Ram it. We have had several articles on the deal. Seriously, just ram it.
by Chris Bowers on Sun May 20, 2007 at 05:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrap-Up Of Our National Democratic Poll Semina (none / 0)

I hate to be the pooper, but someone really ought to state the obvious about some of Chris' conclusions. There are just too many holes in his arguments to take them very seriously.

For example (by the numbers):

RE: #1. Polling this early in the race is going to be more about name ID than anything else, so this is a silly discussion to even be having. But with that said I still have to point out that general election polls also oversample the VAP by a factor of 2 or more, relative to election day turnout, however they still somehow manage to be pretty predictive of actual election results in most cases.

RE: #2. As a predictor of actual election results, telephone polls conducted by human interviewers in accordance with accepted industry best practices remain the gold standard -- it may never sound good in theory but still works great in practice. By comparison, alternative methodologies have had very mixed results at best to date (and that's being pretty charitable in most cases).

RE: #3. This one is kind of a wash. Pushing the undecideds this early is again, likely just another measure of name ID. It's almost as silly as betting the ranch on robo-polling.

RE: #4. The "White Knight" syndrome is a pretty common phenomenon in virtually every presidential election cycle. In 2003, Hillary Clinton out-polled any actual candidate by large margins, even edging out 2002's hands-down front-runner, fellow white night Al Gore.

RE: #5. If you want to see some soft support compare the number of undecideds in this year's polling vs. May of 2003. For the record, I agree that we're probably less likely this year than in '03 to see anyone come out of to see anyone come out of nowhere. But it was still interesting to see how Clinton's numbers jumped when Obama was hypothetically removed from the slate in a recent Fox poll, whereas removing Clinton resulted in a much more even redistribution. Probably just name ID again though.

RE: #6: I would not take head-to-head numbers too seriously at this point either. For most of 2003, all actual Democratic candidates lost to Bush by large margins in polls, whereas a generic Dem was often polled close to even, or even pulled ahead occasionally. However once the nomination was sewed up Kerry's numbers immediately jumped up to equal the previously unnamed Dem and stayed there for the remainder of the race. This year, the generic Dem is polling about 10% ahead of the generic Republican. My take is, whoever lands the nomination it's our race to lose.


by CalD on Sun May 20, 2007 at 03:00:41 PM EST

Re: Wrap-Up Of Our National Democratic Poll Semina (none / 0)

1--Edwards and Obama are within 10% of Clinton in terms of name ID among Dems.

2--Not anymore. IVR polling and YouGov's internet polls are now just as accurate as telephone polls.

I'll just stop there. I really don't think you are familiar with the length and depth of this discussion, which took place in consultation with over half a dozen professional pollsters. Everything you write has already been discussed over these past four months with other professional pollsters in significant depth. Don't be so arrogant as to assume that we are just a bunch of naive amateurs here who don't understand how professional polling on presidential races works. You can't just swoop in with a bunch of polling generalizations and somehow find an easy hole to poke in these conclusions. This is a lot more solid than you assume, which you would notice if you read the 35 articles I to which I linked.
by Chris Bowers on Sun May 20, 2007 at 05:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent summary (and a small nit) (none / 0)

Thank you for putting together the end of the seminar summary. :-)

One small nit (I wouldn't even bother bringing it up except this post will likely get even more links and so for than usual)... did you mean that polling effects compliment or complement  each other?


by WVaBlue on Mon May 21, 2007 at 06:33:24 AM EST


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