How Much Will Iowa Matter?

Based on today's two new polls, I have revised my national poll averages. Here are the five-week trends, starting from Obama's low point on April 10th and continuing through today:

High-End Average
Date Clinton Obama Edwards Other / Unsure
May 14 38.8 27.0 15.4 18.8
May 11 38.2 27.8 15.2 18.8
May 08 37.2 27.6 15.8 19.4
May 04 34.0 28.8 17.8 19.4
Apr 30 33.5 30.3 18.0 18.2
Apr 27 35.2 29.8 18.0 17.0
Apr 24 35.7 28.4 17.6 18.3
Apr 20 35.7 28.0 17.2 19.1
Apr 16 37.0 26.3 17.0 19.7
Apr 13 37.0 24.5 17.0 21.5
Apr 10 37.8 22.8 17.3 22.1

Low-end average
Date Clinton Obama Edwards Other / Unsure
May 14 35.9 23.3 14.3 26.6
May 11 34.9 23.4 13.9 27.9
May 08 34.1 23.3 14.3 28.3
May 04 33.3 24.4 16.3 26.0
Apr 30 34.2 27.0 16.7 22.2
Apr 27 34.4 26.4 16.3 22.9
Apr 24 34.3 25.9 16.0 23.8
Apr 20 34.0 25.1 15.0 25.9
Apr 16 33.9 24.6 15.1 26.4
Apr 13 34.9 24.0 15.7 25.4
Apr 10 35.8 22.0 15.5 26.7

Now, as formidable as Clinton's lead appears, if the 2008 race develops along the same contours as the 2004 campaign, virtually no pre-Iowa lead is safe. According to a chart at Pollster.com, John Kerry turned a 20-point national deficit to Dean to a 25-point national advantage in just the week from the Iowa caucus to the New Hampshire primary:

Rapid post-Iowa movement of this level would make national, pre-Iowa polls a virtually useless indicator of the state of the campaign. However, I just don't think there will be as much movement post-Iowa in 2008 as there was in 2004. Last cycle, there were a variety of factors that came together to create a perfect storm of post-Iowa momentum for Kerry. Here is an incomplete list of those factors:

  1. High level of familiarity with the Democratic top-tier. In late September of 2003, a Newsweek poll of a hypothetical Democratic nomination showed Al Gore and Hillary Clinton polling at a combined 61%, while the ten announced candidates polled only a combined 31%. As late as December 8th, 2003, Quinnipiac showed Hillary Clinton polling 43%, the nine announced candidates polling a combined 48%. Newsweek showed nearly identical results one week earlier, and AP-Ipsos had done the same three weeks earlier (source for polls). In other words, back in 2003, between 40% and 60% of all Democrats were ready to abandon their favorite announced candidate if another, high-profile Democrat were to enter the race. That indicates extremely soft support. By way of comparison, in 2007, when potential candidates such as Al Gore and Wesley Clark are included in national polls, at most they draw a combined 20% support. The higher level of familiarity with the Democratic top tier in 2007-2008 reduces the potential movement among the field, relative to 2003-2004. This has also been reflected in numerous polls showing the Democratic electorate much more satisfied with the current slate of candidates than they have been in recent nomination campaigns.

  2. "Scream" repeat unlikely. Kerry quick rise after Iowa was additionally fueled not only by his victory, but by Howard Dean's rapid decline following intense press coverage of "the scream." That was a highly unusual event that I seriously doubt will be replicated for any candidate in 2007-2008.

  3. Major candidates unlikely to drop out after Iowa. In 2004, Kerry's rapid post-Iowa rise was also fueled by the removal of Gephardt from the field. As the candidates with the momentum at the time, Gephardt supporters moved is massively disproportionate amounts to Kerry and Edwards. Consider, for example, that on February 3rd, 2004 ("mini-Tuesday") Kerry and Edwardshad their highest combined vote total in Missouri, Gephardt's home state. However, right now it seems that the only major candidate who would drop out after a failure in Iowa would be Edwards. Thus, Edwards would not benefit from an Iowa victory to the same degree as either Clinton or Obama would. At the same time, Clinton and Obama are less likely to win Iowa than Edwards. Overall, that makes this situation somewhat unlikely to repeat itself.

  4. "Electability" is less of a factor. In 2004, "electability" was the main issue for around 35-40% of the Democratic primary electorate. Early indications are that, in 2008, it will play a smaller role in determining voter choice. A recent Gallup poll, for example, suggested that "electability" is the primary motivating factor for about 10% of Clinton and Obama supporters. Nothing convinces voters that someone is more electable than actually winning, so Kerry's post-Iowa rise was again greater than what one would normally expect.

  5. Voters paying more attention in 2008. Democratic engagement in the 2008 primary season is much higher than in other recent cycles. As the campaign progresses, this will result in more high-information voters, and in "harder" candidate support.

  6. Less Media Focus on Dems in 2008. With both the Republican and Democratic parties featuring contested nomination campaigns in 2008, Democrats will not have the post-Iowa media surge all to their own this time. That could create less positive press, and thus less momentum, for whoever wins Iowa.

  7. No guarantee the Iowa winner will be a surprise. The established media loves to report on the "expectations" game. Another factor that helped fuel Kerry's enormous post-Iowa rise was that he had been left for dead just two months earlier, and that Dean and Gephardt had long been thought to be the most likely winners in Iowa. This time around, there is simply no guarantee that the Iowa results will shift so wildly in the final two weeks before the caucus, thus creating a more "unexpected," and thus more covered, campaign narrative.
Now, with all of that said, whoever wins Iowa will still receive some sort of momentum boost. However, this far out and with many factors to consider, it is extremely difficult to estimate just how large that boost will be. Overall, my advice is this: if you are backing someone who trails in the national polls, don't count on a Kerry-esque, post-Iowa momentum tsumani to lift your candidate to victory. Four years ago, 2004 was a perfect momentum storm, and this time around the variables have changed.

I think a good rule of thumb is to, at a minimum, either lead Iowa and be within fourteen points of the national leader, or lead New Hampshire and be within eight points of the national poll leader. Anything else will require extraordinary circumstances for the national leader to lose his or her hold on the campaign. Right now, I think that makes Clinton the clear frontrunner, even if that wasn't the case just two weeks ago. Then again, if national polls can shift this quickly in April and May, maybe we should expect another post-Iowa tsunani.

It is certainly difficult to try and figure all this stuff out. Fortunately, speculation like this it is even more fun than it is difficult.

Display:


Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Fun indeed, thanks for the info/perspective.
You don't seem to be emphasizing the changing primary/caucus schedule as a factor - though that may be hard to analyze, as it is not set.
www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:40:39 PM EST

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

I think you are wrong, or at least I hope, because otherwise I must conclude the Democratic primary voters are completely out of touch with the general American voters. As I said before, that should be the biggest concern.


by bruh21 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:43:35 PM EST

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

bruh the race has not really started yet, Obama has yet to make his direct argument as to why he would be both a better candidate and president than Hillary. It's coming.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Hillary is particularly vulnerable like Dean to a collapse based on early states because not doing well would feed into the perception that is her biggest weakness. Bush was able to overcome 2000 McCain becuae J-mac was not an acceptable choice to Republicans at that time no matter what NH or Mich independants thought. Obama and Edwards are very acceptable to majority of Democrats and a poor Hillary showing with caucus goers in Iowa or independant dominated New Hampshire will put a brutal spotlight on why Hillary wasn't connecting going into Feb 5th's mega-primary. Electability and Hillary's image and appeal to non democratic voters si going to be an issue in this campaign like it or not, we can wait until some independant or republican becomes the  "change" candidate in 2008 or not, but democrats need to see what a bad choice Hillary could be as a nominee.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:47:10 PM EST

Good Review... (none / 0)

I agree, pretty much.  This cycle, I believe, will be fought for the independent voter.  Watch, NH.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:50:36 PM EST

I just noticed... (none / 0)

That both Obama and Edwards rose and fell over the last several weeks by almost the same amount (couple of points) and at almost the same rate.  They both reached a high point at the end of April and then fell back a bit.

I'm not really sure what it means, but it's interesting.  Perhaps it indicates that all we've seen in the last couple of months is a flat horserace, with a slight trough for Hillary around April 30th.  I think you'd have to conclude that she got at least SOME bump from the debate (and more likely...the press after) and that BOTH Obama and Edwards took a little hit.  So maybe that indicates the "Hillary - anti-Hillary dynamic is more important than the individual candidates at this point.


by rashomon on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:59:44 PM EST

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (3.00 / 1)

That is a good analysis.

One thing I would add is 2008 is such a different schedule than 2004. People will already be voting by early voting in some of the mega states. That will reduce the momentum effect to some extent and the compacted schedule will make it more difficult to turn a victory in Iowa into victories in dozens of other states a few days afterwards.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:59:51 PM EST

You are right... (3.00 / 1)

early voting will be crucial and these states, so far, have no-excuse early voting.  Meaning just walk in and show up to vote at the poll place.  So we are looking at 15-20 days out before the primary for early voting, so many will be voting in January for the February 5th primaries.

The following states:

AZ, AR, CA, CO, FL, GA, IL, LA, NV, NM, NC, ND, TN, TX, WV

http://www.electionline.org/Default.aspx ?tabid=474


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are right... (none / 0)

FYI, You have FL on that list, but they have jumped all the way to 1/29 (same day as South Carolina.)


by georgep on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are right... (none / 0)

but it has not been decided if this will be an election primary or beauty contest.  Personally, I would like Florida after the Feb 5th primaries.  All these primaries is coming down to be ridiculous.  I will have to quit my job, just to keep track!!


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are right... (none / 0)

An example would be AZ, where over half the electorate now votes early.  And in AZ, voting begins 33 days before the election day.  So that means they'll be voting by like January 2, 2007.

HRC will have the early voting advantage because early voters tend to be more establishment oriented AND her team ain't stupid enough to not run, or run an incompetent early voting program.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also, for this early voting... (none / 0)

Remember Harold Ford, Jr?  His polling data was all over the place, people were voting in record numbers in Tennessee and he lost by 3-4 pts.  This early voting can skew things, you don't really know how these people are voting, at all.  This is going to be very interesting, coming down the stretch.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ugh (none / 0)

Remember Harold Ford, Jr?

  I try not to.

  Is there anyone who better exemplifies the stuck-in-the-mud attitude of Democratic elitists?

  He supports Hillary. Of course.


by Master Jack on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:40:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ugh (none / 0)

Sorry to drudge up "memory lane", but just making an analogy about polling and how the numbers of his campaign were all over the place.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:44:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ugh (none / 0)


 

sorry to drudge up "memory lane"

 I love that typo.


by Master Jack on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

I'm not ure if the ocmpacted schedule lessens Iowa and NH's impact or strengthens it--if Hillary, for example, does worse than expected in both (or possibly even one of those staters), she will have virutually no time to change her message or strategy.  The press momentum from Iowa and New Hampshire will be the last thing in voters' minds as they vote in a semi-national primary.  

Perhaps it means that there won't be time to move the national numbers.  Perhaps not.

I would also add that we no longer have the same imperative to 'get bush out of office,' which might mean that primary voters won't see the same impetus to coalesce around a frontrunner that they did in 2004.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue May 15, 2007 at 01:26:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

 ...and wonder what appeal a serious Democrat could possibly see in a Hillary Clinton candidacy.

  Low-information voters I can understand. Especially when Hillary's top two challengers haven't done anything to raise public awareness of Hillary as the pro-war, pro-status-quo, pro-corporate, anti-working-family candidate she is. One wonders what they're waiting for, but that's a different post.

   Hillary Clinton is little more than a pro-choice Republican. If we want the 2008 election to be nothing more than a national referendum on abortion rights, then Clinton is the ideal candidate.

   For those of us who define what it means to be  a Democrat a little more broadly, though, Hillary has almost nothing to offer. And I have no idea what an informed Democrat could possibly see in her, particularly in light of at least two  vastly more appealing alternatives. It's not like she's up against Michael Dukakis.

   She's got her shills, to be sure. Some of them post here. But there's no defending her on policy. It's all about her being a Clinton.

   It's a mystery. But the key remains low-information voters -- who still seem to think Hillary opposes Bush on Iraq, thanks in large part to her opponents' reluctance to clarify the issue...

 


by Master Jack on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:02:55 PM EST

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

There is very little difference in policy between the top 3 candidates.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)


  Edwards opposes the war, and doesn't treat working Americans like they're embarrassing stepchildren. It's a reflection on how far the party has drifted from its values that Edwards is an exception among Democrats.

 Obama -- well, trying to be all things to all people is a policy difference, I suppose. Clinton doesn't even pretend to disguise her elitism.  


by Master Jack on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

Not sure what you mean by elitism, none of the 3 are what I would call elitist.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:13:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

 Kissing up to Rupert Murdoch -- an individual whose entire mission is to make the world safer for the established power structure -- certainly would qualify one as "elitist".

 I want my Democratic leaders to minimize his influence, not amplify it.

 Just one example.

 And Hillary's advisers -- Mark Penn, for starters -- are pretty despicable creatures. I never thought I'd see the day when one of the chief advisors to a leading Democratic presidential candidate was a union-buster.


by Master Jack on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

Obama has as much corporate support as Clinton if not actually more. His finance chair is Penny Pritzker whose family has the $15 BILLION Hyatt fortunate.

Edwards has the support of trial lawyers some of them have fortunes in hundreds of millions.

All 3 have support from the "establishment".


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's a difference... (none / 0)

 ...between enlisting corporate support in a general sense, and enlisting support from an organization whose mission it is to destroy the Democratic Party and its values.

 And trial lawyers (nice Republican framing there, by the way) are hardly "elites", for the most part.

 But if you have a documented evidence of Hillary Clinton showing concern for the American working class in her words and actions, feel free to share. Hint: Continued support of outsourcing doesn't much help her case.

 


by Master Jack on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's a difference... (none / 0)

She has a 35 year record of helping the poor, working and middle class much.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's a difference... (none / 0)

With "free" trade agreements?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue May 15, 2007 at 08:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

Penny's brother is supporting Hillary - family infighting?

Ugh this whole Mark Penn this and that crap is annoying. All three candidates have people in their campaigns that dont fit the typical mold of a democrat (much less a liberal democrat or progressive dem)


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

You know, I was disgusted by the Dean-morphing-into-Obama ad.  It was the most despicable attack on a Democrat from a Democrat I have ever witnessed.  I never fathomed that the creator (Gibbs) of the smear would find employment with a presidential campaign.  Yet, here he is, one of the important pieces of the Obama campaign puzzle.

Despicable does not even begin to describe that person.  


by georgep on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

That is your opinion. The other 2 have that type of support as well. She has a lifetime of working for those without voice in our society and around the world.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:35:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And don't think this will not be brought up... (none / 0)

and "repeatedly".  Cokie Roberts put it out there Sunday, on "This Week".  Expect her to get questions about this in these debates coming up.  And she has to answer it, because this is an issue that is stopping many from gravitating to her.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And don't think this will not be brought up... (none / 0)

What is an issue?


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And don't think this will not be brought up... (none / 0)

"elitism"

Cokie Roberts put that out there yesterday, on This Week

That there is a fatigue of BUSH/CLINTON/BUSH/now another CLINTON.  Meaning, she is not new, the new candidate is Barack Obama and he took that away from her.  That is what Roberts said.

I don't believe all this 100%, but she is not new, and she is continuing an "elistist" role with those two names that have had the WH since 1988.  And yes, there are many ppl who do feel like this.  They like Hillary, but she is not new and after Bush, people do want a change.  Many do not see this in Hillary Clinton.  Now, she may be able to change this down the stretch, but people are going to ask about this, and what she think about it.  A valid question.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And don't think this will not be brought up... (none / 0)

There is always a "new" candidate frenzy in the Democratic party every election cycle going back some 50 years. Gene McCarthy, John Lindsay, Paul Tsongas, Gary Hart, Bill Bradley, Howard Dean are just a few I can think of at the moment.

What I think the polls are showing this year is voters want experience and leadership and a known quantity to fix the massive problems caused by the Bush administration.

That is why they picked Mondale, Gore, and Kerry in past election cycles by a wide margin in the primaries because they were known quantities. That is why I think Clinton is doing well in the polls.

There is nothing "elitist" about more than one person running for office from the same family. I don't recall if the Kennedy, Bush, Udall, Ford, Clay, or various other families ever faced that question in the Democratic Party before or how they answered it but there is a long tradition of public service by families which includes more than one in a family holding political office.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And don't think this will not be brought up... (none / 0)

but back to back running..I think it will be an issue, I hear many talking about it already.  


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (3.00 / 2)

Obama has a 96% lifetime voting record from the AFL-CIO, and according to the ADA ratings, a more liberal voting record in the US Senate than Edwards, and yet Edwards supporters fell justified in saying that "Obama is trying to be all things to all people."

You are confusing style and positioning with values.  I see no indication that Obama's values are any less progressive than Edwards.  He is the one who has spent years as a community organizer, public interest/civil rights lawyer, and State Senator representing a largely poor and African American community, and yet you feel justified questioning his commitment to progressive goals. He has a different strategy and style, not different goals. I find this attitude amongst many Edwards supporters very ignorant and very annoying.


by upper left on Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

I second that.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue May 15, 2007 at 12:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

Her voting record--her 'policy', as far as that's determined by past votes--is very close to that of her rivals, so I think many of her supporters consider 'policy' more or less a wash, in a way that you (I suspect) and I do not.

And she's a survivor; tough as nails and sharp as a razor. She's appealing in person--and benefits from the fact that most expect she won't be--and she's got a great personal story, and her 'machine', her staff etc. is apparently second to none. She's got a real chance of being our first female president, and that's not nothing.

Plus, she's not anything new (other than her gender). For me, that's her major fault. She's same-old same-old. But for many, many voters, I suspect that's a huge benefit; she'll just bring things back how they were in the 90s (or how we remember they were in the 90s). She's kinda unchallenging, in that way, while being utterly revolutionary in another.


by BingoL on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

I tend to agree with you.  I think many see HRC as tough against the Republicans and that is what they want.  The rank and file Democrats don't really look at policy.  There is a desire for UHC, but I don't think people differentiate on the policies.  They don't require the specifics so there is little advantage to Edwards.  He affects the shift in dialog but as long as the others include statements they won't be challenged except possibly by Iowa voters and policy wonks.  

Obama is the fresh new face but I don't think will be able to overcome Hillary.  For Edwards he needs to break through to people's awareness.  This is a tough race to develop strategy and connection to the voters in the primaries.  And I really would like him to do that but it is a puzzle.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think he (and Obama) (none / 0)

have to do a lot of the mind-changing person to person. Which is easiest to do in states like Iowa and NH. Success in the early states for Edwards and Obama is really the only think I think that can stop Hillary.


by okamichan13 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think he (and Obama) (none / 0)

Another thing affecting perceptions is the fact that Obama and Edwards are willing to go out and do the tough interviews which Hillary does not.

Obama and Edwards face critical questions head on while Hillary avoids them at all cost.

Plus the MSM is a big influence.  Why has no one brought up her conflicting statement about timetables from 2006?  Or go to MSNBC and look under each candidates name and you will see a larger number of critical articles about Edwards and Obama than for Hillary.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue May 15, 2007 at 12:57:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

Actually, I am glad all opinions go here.  You see, I think an opinion could not be more wrong than the one you offered here.   I believe that Clinton, on balance, offers more than either of the other two candidates.   Of course, that is merely my personal opinion as well.  

Then again, each of us have one vote, as it should be.  May the best candidate win.

BTW, to state that those here (who are obviously high-info) who support her candidacy are shills is a very lame diss and putdown.  It devalues your post tremendously.  


by georgep on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

and yet she is dominating the national polls.

Serious democrats understand that there arent just far left democrats or moderate democrats, but that dems cover a wide range.

An arrogant democrat thinks all democrats see things the way they do.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just scratch my head... (none / 0)

you are totally correct.  The Democratic Party has always been a large umbrella, unlike the other side.  


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:45:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a bogus claim: (3.00 / 1)

Hillary Clinton is little more than a pro-choice Republican

It is weird for me to have to the defense of HRC, whom I oppose for the nomination on grounds that she voted for the war resolution (which Edwards co-sponsored along with a lot else he did to hawk the war), but I have no choice but to do that, in the interests of fair-mindedness, since your comment is full of hyperbolic claims and the one quoted above is a patent lie, as shown below:

Hillary has very high liberal and progressive ratings in many ratings systems:


progressive punch
15  92.11 Clinton, Hillary Rodham D NY
Nearest republican scores:
52  35.62 Specter, Arlen R PA
53  33.57< Snowe, Olympia J. R ME    
54  31.46 Collins, Susan M. R ME    
55  16.36 Coleman, Norm R MN

Also:
58  13.90 McCain, John R AZ    

And, here are ADA scores for some senators:


2006:
Clinton: 95%
Obama: 95%
Dodd: 95%
Lieberman: 75%
Biden: 100%

Nearest Republicans:
Snowe: 45%
Specter: 30%
Also:
McCain: 15%

----

2005:
Clinton: 100%
Obama: 100%
Dodd: 100%
Lieberman: 80%
Biden: 100%

----

2004:

Boxer: 95%
Feinstein: 100%
Dodd: 100%
Lieberman: 75%

Graham: 95%
Clinton: 95%
Edwards: 60% (8 absences)

----

2003:

Edwards: 65% (7 absences)
Clinton: 95%
Lieberman: 70% (6 absences)
Kerry: 85% (3 absences)

----

2002:

Clinton: 95%
Edwards: 70%
Lieberman: 85%

----

2001:

Clinton: 95%
Edwards: 95%
Lieberman: 95%

----

2000:

Lieberman: 75%
Edwards: 85%

----

1999:

Lieberman: 95%
Edwards: 90%

There should be some way to curtail the type of false commentary as contained your comment.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is a bogus claim: (none / 0)

Thanks for posting that.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (3.00 / 2)

In Chris's reasoning electability is not much of an issue, I respectfully disagree if Obama does not make the case that he can break through some of the red/blue divisions in the nation and implicitly make the case that Hillary can not he shouldn't even have bothered to run.
       Electability and ability to accomplsh something when eected is the hart of Obama's appeal, he's not going to win on the Iraq war vote or his plan for this or that. Hillary will be able to fight both of her opponents off if this is about specific issues and appeal to interest groups, Obama has to feed into  many dems perceptions that Hillary is the wrong choice even if she's the best "qualified" and New hampshire which is I think is Obama's must win state is the perfect place to pull that argument off leading other dems in the following states to conclude Obama would be the best choice.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:03:09 PM EST

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

nevadadem:
"he's not going to win on the Iraq war vote or his plan for this or that. Hillary will be able to fight both of her opponents off if this is about specific issues and appeal to interest groups, Obama has to feed into  many dems perceptions that Hillary is the wrong choice even if she's the best "qualified"

So what you appear to be saying is that Hillary is superior on the substantive issues, so Obama should just take an ad hominem (appealing to personal considerations, rather than logic or reason) approach to his candidacy.

That's may work for the general, but it seems like he's forgetting that he has to win the Democratic nomination before moving on to the presidency.  In order to win the nomination, he has to appeal to the majority of Democrats, not independent.  You state that it is still early and Obama has time to roll out his plan, but if the states keep competing to be first, then the first primary/caucus may be in Jan of 2008.  So far in front of key Democratic constituents, Obama has not delivered.

SEIU Health care in Las Vegas-didn't have a plan

IAFF-didn't really address the firefighters issues, and most recently literally phoned in his address to the same members, when they gathered in NH.

War:  Yes, he was against the war in 2002, when not in the US Senate, but he has not really presented himself as an anti-war candidate.  He did not support Feingold's bill initially, and it will be interesting to see if he supports it now that it has Dodd as a co-sponsor.  Instead he has a plan on Iraq that is similar to Hillary's and Edwards.  His vote in the Senate on funding the war is identical to Hillary.  So again he doesn't end up being a strong voice against the war.

Foreign policy speech:  I would say Bill Clintonesque.

Detroit speech: ground breaking (not so much), in line with the other top tier candidates.

Debate:  A small audience, maybe, but I would say a voting audience, and he wasn't a stand out.

I think voters make their decision on a given candidate at different points in the election process, so candidates should treat each opportunity as the only opportunity to win that person's vote.  If at anytime you create a negative impression (phoning the firefighters who had doubts about you from their 1st mtg) it's harder to reconnect with those voters.

Hillary is leading in the polls because she treats her audience with respect and comes prepared in her presentations.  Maybe Obama should try a little more of this approach, than the I have a dream of being a great president and you audience should share that dream too.  He seems to be telling people how great he thinks he will be for America, vs. what he will do to improve their lives in America.


by Kingstongirl on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

agreed-

I think part of it also, is that everyone wants something that is different than Bush, and Democrats fill that. Whether its any of the top three that wins, they are NOT Bush. Other than that, you need something more than just "high falutin language" as Edwards put it.

I think his initial surge was because of his appeal as a speaker, but then after that passed, people wanted more; and they havent gotten it. Ad hominem attacks is dangerous at this point. People dont like negative campaigns, and attacking Bill is a lose-lose situation because of his high approval rating.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pointing out that Hillary is unelectable (none / 0)

is not an ad hominem attack. I hear this confused argument from Hillary supporters all the time.

Hillary's problem is a fact not an opinion.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue May 15, 2007 at 08:32:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pointing out that Hillary is unelectable (none / 0)

So what you appear to be saying is that Hillary is superior on the substantive issues, so Obama should just take an ad hominem (appealing to personal considerations, rather than logic or reason) approach to his candidacy.

The definition I've used above indicates that Obama is seeking to appeal to voters on a personal level (ad hominem) vs. substantively.  If he then chooses to attack Hillary on a personal level, then it becomes an ad hominem attack.  IMO ad hominem in itself is not negative, it merely means someone is seeking an emotional or personal connection rather than one based on logic or reason.

Now, if as you propose, he should point out that Hillary is unelectable, which would be his opinion and NOT a fact, given that she has been elected twice to the US Senate and is leading in the polls, I think he puts himself in a lose/lose situation.  He will get attacked for his lack of substance, and he will get attacked for his ad hominem attacks.  His new kind of politics theme would be out the window, leaving him  with a kind of stain of hypocrisy.

There is this BS on this site sometimes that Hillary thinks she is inevitable and is elitist, etc.  Yet no one can point to an event where she has appeared and seemed unprepared or disengaged from the crowd.  Has she made an appearance where she wasn't informed about her audience or addressed their issues? No.  Who is really acting like the de facto nominee of the Democratic Party?  I would say actions speak louder than words and you may want to re-read my comment above to find the answer.


by Kingstongirl on Tue May 15, 2007 at 11:16:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh (none / 0)

This is exatcly what I meant. Pointing out that Hillary is unelectable is NOT attacking her on a personal level. Obama should not attack Hillary, nor anybody else. He should inform them what the American voters think about Hillary according to the polls.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue May 15, 2007 at 01:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just curious (none / 0)

what do you think Obama needs to do to have a chance? You think he has to win NH?


by okamichan13 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:58:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Very good post. Let me throw in a couple of things.

* Everything tends to drift back to the beginning. That's what benefited Kerry in '04. He was the presumed front runner for a long time, then fell significantly behind during the Dean phenomena. But it was always easier for someone who had been considered a top dog to make a big surge, than for a second or third tier also-ran to do it.

* Hillary benefits greatly from the muddled GOP field. In '04 electability was a much more obvious factor, since Bush was a known target and all the head-to-head polls involved the individual Democrats vs. Bush. Direct comparison.

This time around, with so many permutations it's unclear, and not high profile, how each Democrat would fare vs. each individual Republican. I can handicap and guess, and have, as have others. But primary voters won't be convinced minus a flurry of polls indicating Hillary fares worse vs. the known GOP nominee.

Therefore, if  you're rooting against Hillary, root for the Republican nomination to be decided very early. Doesn't look like that will happen.

Hillary already benefits since more Democrats are inclined to ignore electability to begin with, after applying it incorrectly in '04.  

 


by Gary Kilbride on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:04:03 PM EST

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

my point in the discussion is how Iowa and New Hampshire will the focus of Hillary's electability to the forefront of dem voters concerns. If Hillary after 2 years of media induced frontrunner status can't win the first 2 states she will be seen as a weak nominee, especially after Edwards and Obama make that case following thier victories.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:10:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

Iowa doesn't matter if everything plays out to what we can expect from the polling.  Kerry won big out of Iowa because he crushed everyone else (comparatively), and that wasn't predicted by the polling data.  Add to that the already shaky ground that Dean was on (considering the narrative that had already been built) which gave way after the scream.

Here, if everything goes as expected, then Clinton becomes the nominee.  Edwards won't get much bounce out of Iowa because everyone expects him to win there (as everyone expects Obama to win Illinois and Clinton to win New York).  But if something unusual happens, say in New Hampshire or South Carolina, then Clinton will get sidetracked.

So, I think the real battle is for the pre-Feb. 5 states, with Clinton wanting to keep the expectations in place, and everyone else wanting to overturn the apple cart, so to speak.  Unfortunately for us, this kind of fight occurs on the ground and is largely invisible.  We won't know how this plays out until it does.


by Jim Treglio on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:19:58 PM EST

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

bingo which is why if Hillary wins New Hampshire
she will win the nomination even if she loses Iowa. The back to back of losing both I don't think she could overcome whcih is exactly what I think will happen.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

Don't forget Florida, which is now on the same day as South Carolina.  That state's primary will overshadow all other contests, given the size and delegate count.


by georgep on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

what is going on with Florida is everyone still ighnoring it or what?


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

Only at their peril.  The biggest prize before Feb. 5, much bigger import than co-#4 South Carolina.  


by georgep on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

don't they share this date with SC?


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

Yes, they share that date with SC.  But, due to size and delegate count they will severely overshadow SC (and other early states.)  A win in Florida, and the delegate count mushrooms to 240 or so.  In one swoop the other previous states' delegate counts are dwarfed, even if one candidate put together a couple of wins (say, 2 out of 3.)    


by georgep on Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:27:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

It is un-known whether Florida will only be a beauty contest with no delegates being awarded. They would be in violation of the DSC rules and Dean will take action, because their may be more leap frogging by other states.


by BDM on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They do need to control this... (none / 0)

I liked it better when it was spread out, the voting that is.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:50:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

As if Florida would be ignored, even at 1/29.  It is not going to happen.  This state is way too important.  There are no guarantees with any of the candidates, but one thing you can take to the bank is that Florida will not be "just a beauty contest" without delegates being awarded.  Dean may talk tough to avoid more jumping, but at the end of the day Florida will have full delegate count.  


by georgep on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

I am not sure of that. If there is a bunch of leap frogging the whole process goes into shambles and it will hurt the democratic party.


by BDM on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its all about expectations. . . (none / 0)

I think that they'll only seat the florida delegation if the first ballot at the convention is a tight contest. If they're inconcequental to the procedings its easier to punish them as nobody will care.

Dean probably wil hold his fire untill it's clear what the outcome will be.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 15, 2007 at 08:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

its looking like (none / 0)

their delegate count may not matter.


by okamichan13 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Scream (none / 0)

What makes you so sure that the "scream" won't be repeated? Similar media frenzies about Democrats based on meaningless events happen all the time, and I have no doubt they'll happen many more times during this campaign. Maybe they won't be as damaging as the scream story, but maybe they will.  The frenzy about Kerry's "botched joke" was similar, and it's one reason Kerry is no longer running.


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:39:35 PM EST

Re: Scream (none / 0)

Their also could be a UTUBE incident that totally de-railed George Allen's campaign.

I personnally think the numbers are soft and can shift again moving forward We have more debates, also new things can be brought up against the candidates,ie(Carl Bernsteins book coming out in June)


by BDM on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly. The media takes glee in tearing down... (none / 0)

...the previous frontrunner as soon as they stumble. If Hillary is the frontrunner, stumbling in Iowa will give the media its chance to pounce.

Finish third or even a distant second will be damaging.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Mon May 14, 2007 at 08:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

I doubt South Carolina would agree to share this date with Florida..I think they will move up.


by JaeHood on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:01:11 PM EST

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

If that happens then NH and IA will pull the trigger and move up their contests.

We will have those contests in 2007


by BDM on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:09:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

utterly RIDICULOUS...


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:11:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Very impressed... (none / 0)

It's no fluke that when Michelle Obama, his wife, raises money in Jacksonville Wednesday, she will be hosted by Bobby Stein, a Republican investor who supported Bush in 2004 and Republican Tom Gallagher for governor last year. Or that Tampa businessman and philanthropist Frank Morsani, a lifelong Republican, recently wrote a $2, 300 check so he could see Obama in person.

If independents and Republicans break and go Obama's way, it will be tough for Hillary and Edwards.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/13/Opinio n/The_easy_case_for_Pre.shtml


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 09:41:40 PM EST

Re: Very impressed... (none / 0)

Oh yes, it's ever so wonderful when big time republican donors, wall street, lobbyists families and networks, and free traders and other big business types love a democratic candidate. That always makes me feel just fantastic.


by Quinton on Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hell, why not!! (none / 0)

If these people are willing to give and VOTE, why the hell not!!!  And all these candidates should be going for all the votes they can muster and get, because many of these states are "open voting" meaning you can ask for a democrat or republican ticket to vote for, so why the hell, NOT!!


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:39:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very impressed... (none / 0)

It should, because 99% of the time they only support democrats if they're sure that the democrats will win. It's not the issues that bring them to democrats. It's that they don't want to be left at the losers table. They'll gladly betray their issues for that and go democrat.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 15, 2007 at 08:45:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Excellent post right up until "tsunani" . . . :-)


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:34:32 PM EST

Iowa matters- It's mostly Clinton name (none / 0)

Iowa matters. And I do remember where the election was just prior to Iowa in '04. Kerry was written off. Clinton's preference in polling now is very soft in my view. Rasmussen polls are probably a better reading of primary voters, especially caucus voters. Clinton has peaked far ahead of any primary. I would say it's going to be between Obama and Edwards depending on timing and momentum.


by cmpnwtr on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:44:34 PM EST

Re: Iowa matters- It's mostly Clinton name (none / 0)

IIRC pollings shows that clinton's support compared to other candidates has a very strong core a small middle ground and a large amount of soft support.

That's shows both weakness and strenght, She might easily lose support, but she'll also be able to endure a relatively lean period.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

The problem is you cannot read Hillary's numbers as you would another candidate's. Her numbers represent the floor not the ceiling. What you are seeing is pretty much what you will see going into December. Hillary's campaign shares the upside of incumbency and minimizes the downsides. Yes her negatives are high but she is for all of that the safe choice. Bill has a lot to do with it. Whatever else she has, she has a main adviser who has shown he can do the job. The Clintons are a known commodity. The bad news is old news. Swift-boating will not be a surprise just a rehash. With the republican party breaking apart a safe choice has a certain appeal. The old interest groups and power centers within the party are comfortable with and/or owe the Clintons. Plus there is just a whiff of nastiness in the background. Just enough to allow a hint of satisfaction creep in when people think about what the Clintons may do to the other side after all the other side did to them. All of that and more adds up to at least 35-40% of the party.

Looking at the campaign from the Clinton perspective you would have to be mildly confident. The anti-hillary vote is split 2 ½ ways. Edwards is easily defined as Bill lite, Richardson is a Clinton hanger on and Obama is riding a wave of undefined good feelings. Obama is the main problem that will diminish as he is forced to lay out positions. He is bound to disappoint at least some. The problem with having a momentum candidacy is that once you lose it it is gone.

With the Republicans campaigning on War and terrorism at least in large part in their race, I just don't see significant erosion of support from Hillary's implied competence campaign (you know we can do the job because we have). So the real question should be is 35% enough to win Iowa.

Edwards has a chance in Iowa but then what? Lets say he gets a bounce which puts him second in Nevada. Has he conceded New Hampshire like last time? No because South Carolina is no longer his state So he needs a second in New Hampshire or Obama reemerges as the other option. So we have Hillary going into New Hampshire with at least a strong second in Iowa and with Edwards as having been seen as the Iowa front runner backed up with a win in Nevada and having her two main rivals forced to fight it out.


by Judeling on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:46:04 PM EST

guess we Iowans will have to work harder (3.00 / 0)

to push Hillary into third or fourth place...

You guys can scenario spin all you want. I know that when I talk to active Democrats, I hear a lot of, "I don't know, but not Hillary." I believe that Edwards and Obama will pull away from Hillary as undecideds make up their minds. I would not even rule out Richardson moving into the top two or three in Iowa.

I agree that if Edwards only barely beats Hillary in Iowa, it won't give him a huge amount of momentum. But I am going to work toward a convincing victory for Edwards here.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:57:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: guess we Iowans will have to work harder (none / 0)

I believe that Edwards and Obama will pull away from Hillary as undecideds make up their minds. I would not even rule out Richardson moving into the top two or three in Iowa.

I stated this earlier, the indies will decide.  And I hear the "anyone but Clinton" all the time, so many folks already made their mind up about her.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: guess we Iowans will have to work harder (none / 0)

Also depends where you are. As far as I recall she targetting the more rural areas over the more urban ones.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: guess we Iowans will have to work harder (none / 0)

What indies? Independents don't really participate all that much in the Iowa caucus.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue May 15, 2007 at 03:30:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The importance of Iowa is really up in the air (none / 0)

so far its importance seems mixed. Some people think it means less because other primaries are closer, have more delegates, no time for momentum or to raise money, etc. Some say an Edwards win wont matter because he's expected to win so it wont help him.

Some people think its importance goes up - gives momentum to win the early states, no time to stop that momemtum, media frenzy on the winner (and on the loser). Some say an Edwards win will put him over and be the first pin in Hillary's balloon.

Its just too far out to know. One thing we do know from experience though is that polls, national and primary, really don't mean a whole lot right now. It might stay the same all the way to election day. Or - it might flip totally upside down.


by okamichan13 on Mon May 14, 2007 at 10:56:35 PM EST

Re: The importance of Iowa is really up in the air (none / 0)

The thing is that Clinton's polls have always been strong.  When she was included in any of the polls in 2003 she dwarfed all Democratic "frontrunners" (Kerry, Dean, Gephardt, Dean, Lieberman) by about four to one.  This held true every time her name was included as a possible candidate, even late in the year.  

It is not very likely that her poll numbers will collapse and "turn upside down."  She has polled strongly for years, I don't see a reason to believe that there will be a sudden collapse.   Before the first debate we were told to "wait for the debates" to see this sudden collapse.  I think it is safe to assume that the opposite in fact happened, that debates are a good thing for her.    In a field of several realtively unknown candidates, you are correct.  Polls can turn on a dime and show different results in a hurry.   I don't think that is very likely here.   Nothing is "in the bag" for anyone, but Clinton is the clear frontrunner for a reason.    


by georgep on Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Look at the numbers another way:

Clinton      38.8 (High) 35.9 (Low)
Not-Clinton  42.4 (High) 37.6 (Low) (Obama + Edwards)
Other/Unsure 18.8 (High) 26.6 (Low)

In Iowa it's not about voting for your candidate.  It's about forming a winning coalition.  The dedicated Not-Clinton Camp comprise the majority.  So in the room either Obama or Edwards will be knocked-out and those people will tend (high likelihood) to go with the other Not-Clinton people.  Supporters of 'Other' are, again, more likely to go with Not-Clinton.  The 'Unsure' will go many different ways but I think if they are really Unsure they will not break heavily for Clinton - too much name recognition can be a handicap as well as a help.

Thus, using this data and at the moment I'll be willing to bet one genuine virtual lollipop Clinton is going to come in third in Iowa.


by ATinNM on Tue May 15, 2007 at 01:36:08 AM EST

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Except that there's no evidence to suggest Obama and Edwards voters are anti-Clinton. Many of them have her as their second choice. The blogosphere is significantly more hostile to her than the Democratic population at large.

There's also the fact that both Obama and Edwards will compete for Iowa, so Clinton will have to lose support (at least 10 points, probably more) to come in third in Iowa.

Iowa will come down to organisation, which it appears Edwards and Clinton have the advantage in. I'm not saying Clinton won't come third (my personal guess is second by a bit more than 5%, but a lot can change in the next 8 months), but you haven't explained rigorously enough why that will happen.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Tue May 15, 2007 at 06:57:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Actually the evidence points in the opposite direction. Most of the time, she is 1st for "second choice" -


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:18:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

I didn't write "anti-Clinton."  I wrote "Not-Clinton."  

Basic marketing: when a consumer reaches a brand decision they tend to stick to or reject that brand.  If their accepted brand is not available they will purchase another brand rather than one they have already rejected.  

I haven't explained rigorously because the data upon which this thread is based isn't rigorous.  The use of Polling/Statistical Analysis, valid for 72 hours, in a dynamic environment to predict an election in 8 months is called, in the varied fields of Neural Psychology, Critical Thinking, and Epistemology "Blowing It Out Your A--."    ;-)


by ATinNM on Tue May 15, 2007 at 11:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

No evidence shows Clinton much ahead of Obama IN IA.

arg poll shows 29 Obama Clinton 23 Obama 22 WITH However with independents it shows a closer race between Clinton and Edwards. hOWEVER THE POLL IS SHOWING THAT 21% of likely Caucus goer's are independents. I think this is highly un-likely.

Now having said the above, ARG doesnot have a good polling record. It was one of the worst pollsters in the 2004 race. It showed Bush AND kERRY TIED AT 49% in it's last poll. It was off by 3% POINTS.

I think the most accurate Pollster for the IA caucuses is the Desmoine Register poll. It generally comes out quarterly, but the last time I saw the poll was in June of 06.


by BDM on Tue May 15, 2007 at 11:10:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Much Will Iowa Matter? (none / 0)

Well that would work if the non-Obama segment wasn't 54.2%  And if the non-Edwards part of the electorate wasn't a staggering 65.8%!

Being Pro-Edwards, Obama or Clinton doesn't mean you're anti something else.
Let's all be for something, instead of against


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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