The John Edwards Trust Issue

To really buy into the idea that John Edwards can be a transformational candidate, you have to buy into the idea that he himself has transformed.  And while he has certainly shown signs of rethinking his approach to politics, and in particular dropping the centrism that once characterized his persona, he's not there.  On January 23, he gave what can only be characterized as a militant and aggressive speech on Iran.  After seeing the fallout, he walked back his rhetoric, but I've been talking to friends in the national security community and they have brought up some worrisome points.

Yglesias points them out here.

I do know, however, that between then and now Edwards hired Michael Signer to be his national security policy guy for campaign purposes and that Signer falls in the same ideological neighborhood as the aforementioned crew. Except for Beinart, these names aren't well known in the progressive blogosphere, but the others aren't folks with netroots-friendly views, either. O'Hanlon, in particualr, is well to the right of the New Model Beinart and I wouldn't at all be enthusiastic about the prospect of an administration in which he was given a high-level position.

Michael O'Hanlon is particularly awful.  A year ago, O'Hanlon was denying the reality of a civil war in Iraq while paradoxically encouraging American troops to involve themselves in one to quell violence.  This is why Edwards and his recent statement that he would consider troop deployment in Iraq for humanitarian missions is so problematic.  As recently as a few days ago, O'Hanlon was on the Hugh Hewitt show, Hugh Hewitt, to discuss a recent piece he authored on Iraq in which he argued as follows.

However, even if Mr. Bush began this war, America as a nation is now fighting it. And Americans, along with our allies and with the overwhelming majority of Iraqis who want a peaceful life, will be the ones to lose it to a collection of thugs and ruthless killers if we withdraw. National pride should not of course keep us in a war we have indeed lost. But we should give the surge a chance, and consider a number of "Plan Bs" if it fails, before giving up this important fight to this heinous foe in this crucial part of the world.

O'Hanlon's interview on Hewitt's show is nauseating for its unrealistic tone and deference to neoconservatives.  He lauds Fred Kagan's strategic sense, Kagan being the architect of the surge, and repeatedly expresses respect for McCain and his ilk. O'Hanlon is very influential among the more hawkish members of the party, the Joe Biden-types, and that he is a complete careerist who will blow with the wind.  His judgment is certainly defective, as is his willingness to dismiss the antiwar movement and his tendency to swallow military propaganda wholesale.  It's people like O'Hanlon that are encouraging Democrats to compromise with Bush on the supplemental, because they want to retain their perceived influence within neoconservative circles or are genuinely hawkish themselves.

In other words, I'm not sold on John Edwards's transformation.  Yglesias is right to question his judgment when he has such people around him.  I question it as well.  Edwards might have apologized for his vote, and he may have tentatively denied the war on terror.  But I get the sense that he's still reaching for his movement voice, that he's a bit off-key, that he doesn't believe that he was actually wrong for the same reasons we think he's wrong.  He doesn't feel genuinely betrayed, because if he did, he wouldn't listen to people like O'Hanlon.  

Anyway, I want to see him jettison his foreign policy advisors, and perhaps reach out to Anatol Lieven, or Steve Clemons, or other and more responsible foreign policy people who have credibility.  I just don't see him as well-served by his hawkish advisors.  They can't credibly represent him to the Democratic primary base as an antiwar candidate because they aren't particularly antiwar themselves.  And it shows.  He's willing to talk about a new direction, he's even willing to deny the Global War on Terror.  But not loudly, not coherently, and while pandering to extremist groups like AIPAC.  So what, exactly, is his transformation about?

I'd like to know more, since he's taken steps in both directions at once.  And thankfully, we have a whole political campaign to help us see where he takes us.

Update: In general, I provide links so you can find more evidence if you want it. Edwards is on record talking about O'Hanlon influencing his thinking, and there's more at the Yglesias post I link to about his advisors. Some of you people need to grow up and stop the reflexive dismissive tones at any discussion of your candidate. And frankly, this isn't really anything more than a 'here's why Edwards hasn't convinced me yet but he could' blog post. You do your candidate a disservice by claiming that I am trashing him and by not taking the simplest of steps to verify information before calling me wrong. It's really quite irritating.



Display:


Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (2.50 / 4)

I agree, and the same should be said of the other prominent candidates.  None of them are in a good, or solid place right now.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:08:27 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

that's because they all need their feet held to the fire rather than being surrounded by yes people.


by bruh21 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:10:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Or because (none / 0)

they are mainstream Democrats while some people here are far left.

Nothing wrong with being "far left", of course. It is not meant as an accusation, but a description.

I am not sure that a candidate with far left views could win a national election in a center-right nation.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:37:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Or because (3.00 / 0)

This country may vote for Republicans pretty often, but it's hardly conservative or center-right.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's only be using parochial definitions. (none / 0)

You have to use a definition of left that is further right than the rest of the industrial world to have a US that is not center-right.

But the US is also a country that has become accustomed to the President "accomplishing" something, and every once in a while, that can be leveraged to getting some substantial reforms put into place.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:47:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's only be using parochial definitions. (none / 0)

In some ways other countries are further to the right than us, in some ways we are than them.  If you consider liberals to be part of the right, then yes, we are further to the right.  But we have liberals and somewhat socialistic people on our left, and liberals and somewhat conservative people on the right, and even that is a simplistic description.  Left-Right is too vague.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's only be using parochial definitions. (3.00 / 1)

I lived for a decade in Australia, so I have no idea when someone says "liberals" whether they mean quasi-19th century pro-business neoliberal, middle of the 20th century American civil rights liberals, last quarter of the 20th century American "cold war" liberals, or last quarter of the 20th century American "anti-war" liberals.

But among high income industrial nations, the US has its natural center of gravity furthest to the right in any of a wide variety of meaningful left-right continua.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:51:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 0)

Sheesh, Matt. Stop showing your true colors as a Barack Obama supporter. :)


by PsiFighter37 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:10:59 PM EST

The problem with this response is that ... (3.00 / 2)

... when Matt was blowing the whistle on Obama after his big Foreign Policy speech, that makes him a closet Edwards or Hillary supporter.

If you are coming in from a hard day of fighting against the self-appointed online Obama campaigners, where the basis of every argument is looking for an edge, arguing for everything Obama, arguing against everything Edwards ... it may be hard for you to recognize this as an entirely fair question.

However, bear in mind that with Hillary a C, Obama as O, Edwards as E, and Matt as S, then in a foreign policy perspective they are probably:

...----S--------------E--OC---...

Now, the radical right wing movement has constructed an artificial center for the debate that is something like:

...----S--------------E--OC-|--...

And if we can get Edwards into the bully pulpit, we have a chance of getting that artificial center shifted, like:

...----S--------------E-|-OC---...

Now, if someone wants to give the impression that Edwards is in a position like:

...----S--[E]---------E--OC-|--...

... well, they are just trying to sell a bill of goods. If Matt is asking whether he can trust that the [E] position is Edwards actual position, I don't think you will find Edwards stating anything to indicate that he is there.

Edward's view of foreign policy has matured since he started going outside the US media bubble and seeing the outside world for himself, including the way the "other half" lives when they live on $2 a day or less. But if anyone is claiming that Edwards has transformed himself into an anti-imperial left foreign policy candidate, its just not so.

The appeal of Edwards to the foreign policy left is not that he represents us, but rather that he represents:

  • someone who stands to the left of the current grossly distorted conventional wisdom,
  • and who is both willing and able to shift the terms of the debate in his direction,
  • and who is at the same time willing to push the country in the direction of Energy Independence, which is a material pre-requisite for standing the Empire down.

At this point in time, its the best play we have, but the fact that it is the best play we have is a rather sad commentary on how far we have allowed the radical right wing movement to shift the artificial center of the public policy debate.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Wait,

This is MyDD? I thought this was Huffington Post.

I'm confused. Who's supporting who?

LOL.

;p

BTW: Great Post, Matt.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:00:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

This is gonna piss of some people.  


by yitbos96bb on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:11:24 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

off


by yitbos96bb on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Good, its about time.


by pia on Mon May 07, 2007 at 05:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What about David Bonior? (3.00 / 3)

If we're going to judge a candidate by his advisors, why not judge him by his most important advisor, someone who was so opposed to the war in Iraq he took a much-derided trip to Baghdad before the war, someone who is one of AIPAC's least favorite pols of all time.

I agree that Signer is bad; Yglesias linked to a piece he wrote, and it sounded a lot like the speech Obama gave last week.

I wonder which advisor urged Edwards to reject the concept of a Global War on Terror?


by david mizner on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:21:22 PM EST

What about Derek Chollet? (none / 0)

Am I wrong in understanding that Chollet is Edwards's primary foreign policy advisor?


by BingoL on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You couldn't refrain from attacking Obama (none / 0)

How surprising. Not.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:40:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

I don't understand why a man who was the first to apologize for his stance on Iraq and the first to deny the existence of the War on Terror gets the arched eyebrow.  Meanwhile, the one candidate who has steadfastly refused to apologize for her vote, the one candidate who is virtually certain to continue neoliberal economic policies gets an article from you praising her guts and her intelligence:

http://mydd.com/story/2007/4/30/184719/8 13

Edwards's recent transformation seems a lot more palatable to me as a progressive than Hillary, who is an unapologetic advocate of things that I as a progressive oppose: free trade, American militarism, and unconditional support for Israel.  You better believe she is AIPAC's horse in this race.

I'm not expecting you to endorse a candidate, but continually sowing the seeds of doubt about the candidate who is the most apparently progressive while writing apologies for the most right-wing candidate seems a little strange to me.

 


"ex nihilo nihil fit"
by Lassallean on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:21:38 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

Oooooooo. How awful to admit that Hillary in intelligent, gutsy, and poised. To praise her for having fought back and having told it like it is abouth the "right wing conspiracy" and "smear machine." She was the first prominent person to name it for what it was and was its daily victim seemingly forever.

Caveat: I am far from a Hillary supporter in this primary. I just oppose unfair and snide attacks on our own bloggers. I am also far from a Stoller cultist. Just call it as I see it.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

To me edwards seems like he understands that the positions that he is staking out are good, but only on an intellectual level rather than an emotional one.  

I think that his conversion is genuine, but it is only halfway.


by sterra on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:22:58 PM EST

His economic populism (3.00 / 2)

runs deep; on foreign policy he's a work in progress. But he's making progress.


by david mizner on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: His economic populism (none / 0)

I disagree.  I think that all of it is intellectual (my opinion about the populist part comes from the response defending the 400 haircut)

This doesn't mean that he wont be a populist I think.  It just means that he wont necessarily fight for it in my opinion when it is easier to go another way.


by sterra on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:04:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: His economic populism (3.00 / 1)

The only candidate that actually calls out the fact that it's wrong for 1% of the population to control 90% of the wealth would "go another way"? Are you serious?

The only candidate that says we may need even higher taxes on incomes over 200 million a year?

The only candidate who says we may need an excess oil profits tax?

Do you follow the things he says or do you only follow things he says when they're negative press?

And he didn't defend the haircut.


by adamterando on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:09:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

I get the opposite impression ... I get the impression that its his gut reaction to the way that people live in the half of the world that lives on $2/day or less that opened his ears when he was travelling in Europe, Africa, South Asia and East Asia to those telling him that America can only lead in important positive ways if it rehabilitates and then continues to nurture its soft power.

"If America doesn't lead, no one else will" is certainly not a position I would agree with, but an America trying to regain the mantle of actual world leader, working to gain agreement to what it wants, as opposed to world strongman, is certainly a better deal for the world than any other credible candidate has put on the table.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (2.50 / 2)

I'm leaning strongly towards Edwards at the moment, and couldn't agree more.

I think it's interesting that campaining appears to actually spark a genuine transformation in come candidates. Howard Dean springs to mind. And I think that Edwards is showing the most potential to be transformed.

However, this is largely an issue of trust. So is revealing a 'transformation' actually reflective of a genuine change? Who knows? Not me. But I do know that if a candidate isn't even pretending to be transformed, then there's no change whatsoever ...


by BingoL on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:25:08 PM EST

Um, I can't find a link establishing (none / 0)

that O'Hanlon's currently working on the Edwards campaign.

A little help?


by BingoL on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Apparenly O'Hanlon -isn't- working (none / 0)

on the Edwards campaign. Edwards merely cited his book as helping shape his opinions.

His chief foreign policy advisor is Derek Chollet.

What does Chollet advise? I've no idea. Seems worth looking into, though.


by BingoL on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Apparenly O'Hanlon -isn't- working (3.00 / 1)

Woh, if O'Hanlon isn't working for the Edwards campaign, doesn't that take a lot of steam out of this post?


by JewishJake on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Apparenly O'Hanlon -isn't- working (none / 0)

I wondered that myself since Matt didn't actually say what O'Hanlon does in the Edwards campaign. Reading a book doesn't exactly mean you're "surrounding" yourself with the person.


by adamterando on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

According to Edwards website (3.00 / 2)

Michael Signer is the person doing the foreign policy stuff.

Read him rip Bush a new one:
http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2005/05/ compassionate_c.html

Time to write a new diary Matt


by okamichan13 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 3)

Maybe he stopped listening to people like Hanlon a while ago?

Since Edwards has been a very strong voice for withdrawal and has been the only candidate for not only defunding the surge, but the war as well. I would bet he's listening a lot more to Elizabeth and Bonior than any of those guys.

about the GWOT, Edwards actually came back to it by himself later in the debate after not raising his hand. So not exactly quiet on that - he brought it up in an unrelated question.

You ask what is his transformation about. He's talked about it quite extensively. You can see it in his Iraq plan, in his global warming plan, in his Darfur plan, in his plan on international poverty and education (even creating a cabinet position on global poverty). Id provide links, but its easy enough to find. Check his website out, there's a lot there, just maybe not in a nice neat 5 point plan - much more than that. If you are going to critque him on transformation, you should at least be familiar with what they are.

If he does get elected, that is what he will get elected for. Its a bit too ambitious to be faking it and too easily to be held accountable. He's running on creating a mandate for real change, not just to beat the Repubs.

and a video to top it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVvll0n0e pA


by okamichan13 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:26:09 PM EST

correction (none / 0)

not the only candidate for defunding, but the only top tier candidate for it.

He's going out on a limb on a lot of these issues when its not politically "smart". And he spent $0 on polling 1st quarter and One Corps has been putting his ideas into action around the country all over the country.

Is it genuine? I think so. He's the real deal.


by okamichan13 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't see how anyone can watch (3.00 / 1)

this video and not believe his sincerity.  

Edwards is the first presidential candidate I have trusted.  That doesn't mean I expect him to be a paragon on progressive issues 100% of the time.  I trust him to be compassionate, to use his great intelligence, to work harder than anyone else I have ever seen, to put the good of the country above his own ego and to be honest.  So far, I agree with him on almost every issue.  His depth of knowledge and feeling on those issues leads me to trust that his positions are genuine.

I don't know or particularly care who his advisors are.  I don't expect him to surround himself with people who agree with me.  I especially don't expect him to surround himself with only advisors who only agree with him.  It is a sign of maturity to at least attempt to understand (though not always agree with) opposing viewpoints.

As he said in the debate, what he learned from his terrible mistake on his Iraq vote was to trust his own intuition.

My intuition is telling me that this candidate is the one the country and world desperately needs: a true Bush antidote.


by ashlarah on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:09:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have We Ever Been Mellow? (none / 0)

Good points, A.  Candidates sometimes have folks on board that are counterpoints for debates.

I've read more than once that Eleanor Roosevelt (ER as she was known) was FDR's best debate partner.  Often he would float ideas by her first (they had a basket in which they sent notes or talked by phone), especially those that were less progressive, to get her reaction as she was his conscience, then turnaround to have counterpoints for his cabinet or advisors on policies to reshape.

It's my view that like ER, Stoller is an idealist. We'll see if he changes over time. ER was always an idealist, but in her biographies, she did see how she had to be practical, and was, in the way she ran the domestic operations of the WH.  I remember being like Stoller that when I was in college.   Not a bad thing.  I seem to recall watching on C-SPAN a program in which one advisor for the Kaine campaign said to some young Dems this past Winter that it was important for a candidate to have ideals, but be pragmatic as well.  That's why I prefer Edwards as my candidate.


by benny06 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:50:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have We Ever Been Mellow? (none / 0)

I should not write in the middle of the night, but it's when I have more free time yet I am still sloppy in my posts.:-)

I was like Stoller when I was in college.  And to this day, I still hold some ideals.  Not a bad thing.


by benny06 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am sorry you have no trust. (none / 0)

The trust issue to me says that you like his policies and issues, but you don't trust him as a person.

That is your choice.

I think he will be the most progressive president since FDR.  I trust him.  


by littafi on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:26:46 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

So we're busy trashing the only candidate who has actually admitted he was wrong on his Iraq vote?  And the only candidate with a clearly-articulated stance on medical insurance for all Americans?  It would seem to be a tad early to be forming the circular firing squad that Democrats seem to specialize in.  


by Marion in Savannah on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:29:20 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

FYI - There are at least 3 candidates who opposed the war from the get go.


by John Mills on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Matt, have you ever reached out (3.00 / 1)

to the Edwards campaign and asked them about your conerns?

Why not try to talk with them or get an interview?  They seem to be very responsive. Tell them your concerns.

I think they hired an internet person now after Marcotte left.  Why not ask that person about these issues?

Make the answers into a post here. Start a dialogue.


by littafi on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:38:45 PM EST

I remembered her name. (none / 0)

Tracy Russo is the one who runs the blog on johnedwards.com and who is internet laison or whatever title they have.  Why not interview her or contact her about your concerns over the advsiors and trust issues?  See what they say.

Maybe you even could talk with one of the  advisors?  

My feeling is that you cannot "win" if you don't try.  We need folks like you and Chris and Jerome to act like our voices and ask the campaigns things.  The worst they could do is say no. Haven't lost anything by asking.


by littafi on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

Good piece although it (and my comments) will undoubtedly create a flame war.  I have never been comfortable with Edwards conversion because it is pretty dramatic and doesn't match his largely centrist record in the Senate.  I understand people change their minds but there is generally a common thread when that happens.  This seems like a lurch in a different direction and that makes me nervous.

This guy O'Hanlon is horrible.  He wrote an op-ed piece in The Washington Post in January supporting the surge.  YIKES!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/01/12/AR2007011201950. html


by John Mills on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:48:27 PM EST

Which was the same time (3.00 / 1)

Edwards was calling for an end to the surge and cutting funding for it, even putting up a petition and publishing it in Roll Call.

Sorry, Hanlon does not speak for Edwards. It makes zero sense. Matt's argument is flawed.


by okamichan13 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which was the same time (none / 0)

Here's the problem - Edwards doesn't have huge credibility on Iraq b/c he voted for the war, a position he and others regret.  Matt says O'Hanlon is advising and this guy supports the surge.  Advisors don't speak for candidates but I think it is a little odd that Edwards would be taking advice from a guy who has a position diametrically opposed to his.  It is not as though Iraq is some minor matter - it is THE foreign policy issue of the campaign.

I have not chosen a candidate but I'll admit I am not high Edwards.  I didn't think he was a good VP candidate in 2004 and I am not sold on his conversion.


by John Mills on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which was the same time (none / 0)

Uh huh. And can you point me to the evidence that says that O'Hanlon is advising Edwards?

Matt didn't. Can you?


by adamterando on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which was the same time (none / 0)

From the New York Observer, 12/28/06:

Edwards, whose limited foreign policy expertise was a weakness when he ran for president in 2004, has engaged in what amounts to a multi-year cram session in preparation for this year's campaign.

His chief foreign policy guru continues to be his longtime advisor Derek Chollet, at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington. Edwards also said that his views have also been shaped more recently by a reading list that includes Hard Power: The New Politics of National Security by Kurt Campbell of CSIS and Michael O'Hanlon of Brookings, and and The Good Fight: Why Liberals---and Only Liberals---Can Win the War on Terror and Make America Great Again by Peter Beinart.

Not that those books will have provided him with any easy answers.

Edwards continues to call, for example, for an immediate withdrawal of as many as 50,000 troops from Iraq, a stance that seems at odds with something O'Hanlon recently told me.

"There is only way in which rapid withdrawal can be responsible," he said, "and that is if you have already concluded that we have already lost."

Maybe Edwards believes what O'Hanlon is preaching, maybe he doesn't. Maybe Edwards' rhetoric today on Iraq is pure policy, maybe it's pure politics. That's why we have campaigns - to sort these things out.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thats funny (none / 0)

the article seems to say very clearly that Edwards and Hanlon disagree.

I'm still not sure where the idea of Hanlon advising Edwards comes from, which is basically what Matt is saying.


by okamichan13 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought we were discussing Hanlon (none / 0)

and the surge?


by okamichan13 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought we were discussing Hanlon (none / 0)

Crickets from John Mills and Matt Stoller.

Very nice.


by adamterando on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought we were discussing Hanlon (none / 0)

Went to bed after the post.  I think Matt's update says it all.


by John Mills on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (2.33 / 3)

The thing about Edwards is that he really does have a solid track record that screams "anti-populist centrism", while he is now touring every soapbox in the land promoting just about the most "pro-populist progressive" stance ever announced since Paul Wellstone. We would love to have faith in this wonderful 'conversion', but that cannot come easy.

Moreover, having to parse the vast web of his possible motivations and intentions is just plain exhausting, and people get downright furious when faced with the sheer amount of intellectual effort all this demands. And this anger has to get projected onto his candidacy.

It must be yet another of history's annoying little conundrums.


by blues on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:50:42 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 2)

That's ridiculous.  Edwards' economic record in the senate was pretty good, and he has always had a populist streak.  From his work on trade, to the Patients' Bill of Rights, he demonstrated that he was working for regular folks.

Ezra Klein tried to dissuade the doubters:

Some of this goes back to tone, words, and accent. The emergence, in 2002, of a handsome, articulate, drawling southerner brought to mind another handsome, articulate, drawling southerner who actually was a centrist. But John Edwards was, and is, no Bill Clinton. Despite a widespread perception to the contrary, Edwards never joined the Democratic Leadership Council, though the organization courted him heavily. "That was not the route he wanted to go," says Elizabeth. Indeed, all the way back in 2002, The New Yorker noted that "Edwards has chosen to present himself as a rollicking, full-throated, us-against-them populist."

...but apparently nothing will convince the haters.  Not his actual record, not that he has always made economic issues and health care his focus, nothing.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is hear say and irresonsible. (none / 0)

The very least you could do is contact John Edwards yourself, invite him to come to Mydd and answer these questions.

Why when on many occasions you qualify something that you are writing with - "I have contacted so and so and will update when I get an answer", that on something so serious as the Iraq war issue and trying to portray someone as Hawkish on hear say that you haven't done the same?

Why do you not ask John Edwards directly about this, he is easy enough to reach!


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:53:18 PM EST

Re: This is hear say and irresonsible. (none / 0)

I doubt it's that simple to reach John Edwards and ask directly.


by PsiFighter37 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Took me 5 minutes (none / 0)

at the Edwards website and on Google to know Matt is wrong here.

Due dilligence would be nice. If we expect it from the MSM, we certianly should expect it here.


by okamichan13 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

spelling correction: Anatol Lieven (3.00 / 2)

If anyone wants to read more about the guy Stoller would like to see Edwards consult with, see his wikipedia entry here and his page at the New American Foundation here.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:59:34 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 2)

John Edwards is genuine. Why trash the only candidate who isn't afraid to be Progressive. It is self-defeating.


by RDemocrat on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:04:30 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 2)

This post constitutes "trashing?" Yeesh, if you use a word like that to describe a pretty reasonable, mild-toned critique, then it loses all meaning. It's not "trashing" to criticize someone's choice of advisors and hope that they makes changes on that front.


by DavidNYC on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is trashing (none / 0)

I don't expect the front page to be pro-Edwards, and it was a mild-toned critique.  But it was a critique about the core of who John Edwards is.  Even the suggestion that Edwards might be a phony at heart is a powerful message, and not something that should be taken lightly.


by KickinIt on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:25:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm - Michael Signer etc (3.00 / 1)

The more research I do, the more conviced I am that Matt is just plain outright wrong.

Link to Edwards staff:
http://johnedwards.com/news/headlines/co mmunications-staff/

About Signer:

Neoconservatism has failed. Realism compromises our identity. Why exemplarism is the right choice for a post-Bush foreign policy.

http://americaabroad.tpmcafe.com/free_ta gs/michael_signer

http://www.democracyjournal.org/article. php?ID=6470&PHPSESSID=cb6918c5210c04 89456aaecc9dc26401

http://www.securitypeace.org/index.asp?t ypeid=6&pgid=185 (short resume - nutter? hardly)

http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2005/05/ compassionate_c.html

hmmm, and he is the Deputy Policy Director for Foreign Affairs and National Security


by okamichan13 on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:16:25 PM EST

O'Hanlon? Oh hell no. (none / 0)

Michael O'Hanlon shouldn't be allowed near a Stratego board, let alone the levers of power in the Democratic Party.

Here's O'Hanlon getting his swerve Friedman on while bashing Harry Reid, 4/24/07:

"I think it's probably poor judgment" to say now that the war is lost, O'Hanlon said. "In the next six months we should learn a lot more about whether the surge has a chance, and whether any Plan B is worth contemplating." (WaPo)

Another Freidman unit, eh? I wonder what he'll say in six months. Six more for kicks?

Here's O'Hanlon the innumerate on the JH/Lancet Iraq mortality study 10/20/06:

"Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution, which tracks statistics in its Iraq Index, said: "I do not believe the new numbers. I think they're way off." The Brooking Index, relying on the UN (which gets figures from the Iraqi health ministry [ed. - the same Iraqi health ministry the UN just accused of fudging numbers) and the Iraq Body Count (IBC), estimates the civilian death toll at about 62,000." (BBC)

I'm supposed to credit a website that largely uses English language media reports in Iraq as much more reliable than a peer-reviewed study by the Johns Hopkins School of Public health. The science advisor to the UK Minister of Defense vouched for the methodology. The DC establishment, who wouldn't put freaking gas in their cars when the DC sniper was out and about, thinks it's so easy to just walk around and report in Iraq. There have been 237 Iraqi journalists killed since the Iraq War began - does that screw with the IBC methodology JUST A TAD? Nevermind that the English isn't the native language of Iraq. But hey, the President uses IBC, it's good enough for O'Hanlon.

O'Hanlon is a dangerous SOB, every bit as dangerous as Wolfowitz or Perle. O'Hanlon is 'the best and the brightest' in the true, worst sense of the phrase coined by the late great David Halberstam.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:17:44 PM EST

Re: O'Hanlon? Oh hell no. (none / 0)

Good thing then that he has no part in the Edwards campaign.

It's time for a correction/update/deletion Matt.


by adamterando on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O'Hanlon? Oh hell no. (none / 0)

I went out of my way not to mention John Edwards in my post. I said 'the levers of power in the Democratic Party' - not Edwards campaign. I have no way of knowing who John Edwards listens to and who he doesn't listen to in his policy debates. He might keep O'Hanlon around to give the view of the Bush administration just to game out how things will play out, not because he agrees with O'Hanlon.

My point is O'Hanlon shouldn't be somebody in charge of anything because he's wrong...a lot. That isn't the same as saying he can't offer his view, as Dan Gerstein offers a view, as Marshall Wittman offers a view. I'm for free speech. I'm just saying don't let these clowns near the levers of power.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O'Hanlon? Oh hell no. (none / 0)

I really want to know what these lunatics think a "plan B" in Iraq would look like. What fucking un-tried alternatives could POSSIBLY exist at this so-late-it's-over stage of the game?


by DavidNYC on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:28:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Time for a mea culpa Matt.  This O'Hanlon character does sound horrible, but more digging from others above seem to show it's simply not correct.

C'mon, we need to be BETTER than the right-wing on this.  We're the "reality-based community", right?  We're not the Baghdad-is-like-Indiana crowd that makes shit up.


by BruinKid on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:43:30 PM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

This is really obnoxious.  Follow the links.


by Matt Stoller on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

They don't seem to read well, do they?

heh...


by TxKat on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

I followed yours, feel free to follow mine. Obnoxious is that you seem to regurgitate everything Iglesias says without seeming to do your own investigation on who is actually advising Edwards. Which pretty much sinks the majority of your post.


by okamichan13 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Matt, don't be so defensive.  This was an incredibly sloppy post. You criticized Edwards for implying O'Hanlon is an Edwards' advisor.  You don't like O'Hanlon - fair enough.  It is not unfair to ask to see the evidence before impugning Edwards, or any other candidate for that matter. How about providing some links establishing a closer relationship between Edwards and O'Hanlon, instead of providing a single specious link which only establishes a Edwards' reading list that included a book of O'Hanlon's.  Your post would have at least had a modicum of credibility if you had taken the simplest of steps to support your argument with actual facts.


by AutoWorld on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:22:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

How about Edwards's own words?  And let's not forget about Beinart either.  This cult thing needs to stop.


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 2)

I've read some Marx, and it influenced me, but I'm hardly a Marxist.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 2)

And I've read some Ricardo, and it influenced me, but I'm not all that liberal.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

And I've read Thomas Sowell analyzing Marx. Does that make me a Sowellian Marxist?


by adamterando on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

I followed the links, and the links at the links, and all I got is that John Edwards read a book co-authored by O'Hanlon. And this warrants three paragraphs about how terrible O'Hanlon is and why Edwards' connection, a connection that doesn't appear to exist, to O'Hanlon lends to a "trust issue" you have with him?

Interpret the Israel speech however you want to, that's fair game. But this bogus O'Hanlon connection is thin, and doesn't serve your case at all.


by da0802 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

I trust John Edwards. I have no qualms with him. He's not my candidate, but I trust him. I think all of the top 3 candidates need to stop being AIPAC lapdogs, but I'm not feeling this Edwards hit piece.


by rikyrah on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:06:39 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Edwards' stance on Iran bothers me, too, but Matt, you've trashed Obama, too.  Unless you have a candidate in mind, you're coming awfully close to Nader/Wallace territory.

Why not come out and say you're for Hillary?  I'm sure a principled case can be made that she should be our nominee, especially by someone as smart as you.  But just constantly trashing everyone else is not cool, especially since it seems that O'Hanlon is not working on Edwards' campaign, as you imply in your post.  


by rayspace on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:24:58 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 4)

Which candidate am I secretly for?  Nader?  Or Hillary?

Make up your mind.


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

i think you're leaning edwards but unlike his touchy supporters you don't think he's perfect in every way...and also you hope to somewhat influence edwards to go in your direction

which seems perfectly fine to me..

not sure why everyone's getting their  panties in a bunch...

we know "trust" is an issue with edwards..

i happen not to trust him and will not be supporting him...but to each his own..

my friend knows o'hanlon somewhat..i'll try to see what i can find out if anything...


by serge in dc on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:49:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

I think you're for Ron Paul or Tom Tancredo ;)


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Where is your support for this? (none / 0)

"he wouldn't listen to people like O'Hanlon."

You all but say Hanlon is on the Edwards payroll. Where is your support for this?

Hanlon was for the surge, against defunding, against withdrawal. Edwards is the opposite on all 3 of those.

your argument that Edwards isn't genuine because he is listening to the wrong advisors seems to be just plain wrong.  


by okamichan13 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:26:47 AM EST

Wow - I've been warned for disagreeing (none / 0)

pretty amazing. apparently discussion is one-way here.

"Quit the obnoxious attacks on people who criticize your candidate."

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind


by okamichan13 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:47:47 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

I think the critique is fair because "trust" is such a subjective issue.  Trust is not generally something a person could gain by following a few links, it's a "gut" feeling.  And if someone doesn't have it they don't have it.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:54:37 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 3)

To really buy into the idea that John Edwards can be a transformational candidate, you have to buy into the idea that he himself has transformed.  And while he has certainly shown signs of rethinking his approach to politics, and in particular dropping the centrism that once characterized his persona, he's not there.

"Transformational" is such a popular word now, I get the feeling it may mean different things to different people.  What is a "transformational candidate"?

For example, was Howard Dean a transformational candidate?  

His actual record was that of a centrist. He often offended the Left in Vermont, as well as the Right.  Following the Baker decision, the battle in Vermont was not for civil unions (I'm not sure the term had even been coined yet) - the battle was for full marriage equality.  As I recall, his voice was largely absent from that battle.  He was on the sidelines. He wanted the Legislature to find a compromise.  Those of us advocating equal marriage rights lost that battle. I think that in his heart, he is anti-death-penalty, but nonetheless, as a presidential candidate, he embraced this barbarism.

He was the "anti-war" candidate, but I suspect this was as much based on a deep mistrust of the competence and truthfulness of the Bush Administration, as it was on any deeply formed "Dean view" of foreign policy.

As I recall, many of his most avid supporters in '04 really liked the fact that he was, in many respects, a raging moderate.

Can a raging moderate be a "transformational candidate"?  

And if not, does that mean a candidate who is a raging moderate, like Dean, would not be up to snuff, in Matt's view?  Would not be worthy of Matt's "trust"?

Edwards promotes the idea of eradicating poverty in America and making the fight against poverty worldwide one of the foundations of his foreign policy - and he discusses actual, reasonable policies to accomplish and to measure the progress of his goals.

Call me naive, but when I hear a Democratic candidate for president talking like this, it gives me joy in my heart. Not a feeling of mistrust.    


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:58:45 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 4)

I don't have the link, but Joe Trippi wrote about this here at MyDD.  Trippi now works for Edwards, after saying he wanted to work for a "transformational candidate."  

Ergo, it's reasonable to conclude that Edwards sees himself and wants to be seen as such a candidate.  He has some credentials to make the case with fervor on domestic issues, but does not quite seem to be all the way there on foreign policy.  His GWOT refusal at the debate was a very good sign, though.

There's an inside conversational process to attempt to influence candidates, and there's an outside process, which includes writing blog posts.  I'm certain, without verifying it, that Tracy Russo and Joe Trippi read this post, and they understand what's going on.  

I have not discussed this post or the thinking behind it with Matt, but it may very well be that he's signaling to the Edwards campaign that they are close but have work to do to close the sale on foreign policy.

If Edwards does that, it could make him a clear netroots favorite, something I would think the Edwards supporters here would want.  Lighten up, Edwards bots.

You will notice that Matt uses his writing to pressure each major candidate to become something closer to a real netroots progressive favorite.  That's how an outside movement works, folks.


by Pachacutec on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:04:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 2)

Exactly.  He and Chris are trying to push them into a better place.  Edwards has been the most responsive so far, it seems.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:08:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 3)

I happen to support Edwards, but i agree it's a little silly to think any of these candidates walk on water. We've been down the road of annointing candidates- perhaps it's time to actually keep their feet to the fire before we nominate them.


by bruh21 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:02:15 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

I don't trust him. And Democrats didn't want him in 04, so why would they want him now?


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:02:41 AM EST

That is a straw man. (3.00 / 1)

Edwards was virtually unknown in 2004, yet he came very close to winning the nomination. He is much more known now, and thus has more of a chance. You are repeating a simplistic right wing talking point.


by sirius on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:51:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is a straw man. (none / 0)

Everybody knew about JE in 04 and he won one primary -- his home state. If you or anyone else can find an example of a politician ever winning the nomination after failing on the first try, please post it. It just doesn't happen.

As for right wing talking points, that's the straw argument here. They go after JE's hair and would LOVE for him to be the nominee so they could rant about it 24/7. You thought "I invented the internet," and "Kerry was a coward," were bad?


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu May 03, 2007 at 03:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

If you follow the links provided, you arrive at important flash points that bring Matt Stoller's case into a logical context:

From Yglesias piece:

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/a rchives/2007/05/my_john_edwards_problem_ and_at.php

On the broader question of national security policy, however, Edwards has, to a remarkable extent, stayed right in the same wing he was in back in the day even though his political persona has transformed from "fresh-faced moderate" to "awesome liberal."

It's important to recall where Edwards was back in 2003-2004, namely left of Joe Lieberman on Iraq but right of John Kerry or Hillary Clinton and running a campaign full of wonky centrist policy proposals including the creation of a domestic intelligence service. No non-Lieberman Democrat still supports the war these days, but Edwards has cast his regret of his support narrowly in terms of bad intelligence rather than broadly in terms of changing his doctrinal view about unilateral preventive war.

That is followed by this section in this article from Jason Horowitz:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:0MK4 hft12d0J:thepoliticker.observer.com/2006 12/edwards-on-the-iraq-burden.html+obse rver+edwards+o%27hanlon+beinart&hl=e n&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Edwards, whose limited foreign policy expertise was a weakness when he ran for president in 2004, has engaged in what amounts to a multi-year cram session in preparation for this year's campaign.

His chief foreign policy guru continues to be his longtime advisor Derek Chollet, at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington. Edwards also said that his views have also been shaped more recently by a reading list that includes Hard Power: The New Politics of National Security by Kurt Campbell of CSIS and Michael O'Hanlon of Brookings, and and The Good Fight: Why Liberals---and Only Liberals---Can Win the War on Terror and Make America Great Again by Peter Beinart.

Back to Yglesias:

That article's from a while back and I'm open to the possibility that things have changed. I do know, however, that between then and now Edwards hired Michael Signer to be his national security policy guy for campaign purposes and that Signer falls in the same ideological neighborhood as the aforementioned crew. Except for Beinart, these names aren't well known in the progressive blogosphere, but the others aren't folks with netroots-friendly views, either. O'Hanlon, in particualr, is well to the right of the New Model Beinart and I wouldn't at all be enthusiastic about the prospect of an administration in which he was given a high-level position.

In a nutshell, you have Yglesias expressing doubts about Edwards transformation from centrist to progressive (when it comes to foreign politics) based on his hires of Chollet and Signer, along with Edwards supposed statement that his "views have been shaped" by a reading list that includes O'Hanlon, Beinart and Campbell books.

   In that context it may be interesting to read what Anatol Lieven had to say about Michael Signer's book "A city on a hill" here:

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/a rticles/2006/reality_check


Reality Check
By Anatol Lieven, New America Foundation
Democracy: A Journal of Ideas | Fall 2006

The delusions of idealist foreign policymakers.

A response to Michael Signer's exemplarism.

Michael Signer's essay ["A City on a Hill", Issue 1] is yet another in an all-too-numerous list of recent works by center-left intellectuals arguing that America can recover from its present international difficulties by changing the style of its approach to the world without significantly changing its policies. He denounces the "vulgar exceptionalism" of the neoconservatives and the Bush Administration but does not realize that we are well past the days when a tonier, more agreeably phrased American exceptionalism could command real support from most of the rest of the world.    Signer's argument reflects the fact that, in the end, by far the greater part of the Republican and Democratic establishments share the same basic myths of American nationalism concerning the righteousness of American power, the same commitment to U.S. supremacy in the world, and a common adherence to the same set of basic imperial strategies. And until progressive foreign policy thinkers confront these myths, they only will offer up alternative slogans or tactics but nothing resembling a foreign policy vision.
......
But the liberal hawks who praise diplomacy in principle also appear to misunderstand its true nature. When they speak of engaging other countries diplomatically, what they usually mean is talking at them more loudly and sweetly, but with the same ends in mind. True, this has always been a key feature of diplomacy. But real diplomacy also means a recognition of other states' vital interests and a willingness to reach compromises accordingly. This, by contrast, is too often called -- by Democrats as well as Republicans -- "accommodation" or even "appeasement."

The weakness of Signer's approach is exemplified by his treatment of the Iraq war. As with so many of his Democratic colleagues, he wriggles out of saying whether the war itself was a good or bad thing. Instead, he suggests that if only the Bush Administration had diplomatically enlisted European help, what happened in Iraq would have been very different. This is arrant nonsense. The Europeans were never going to be able to give serious help to the United States in Iraq. They have no effective military help to give, and their readiness to make financial sacrifices was always going to be severely limited by the -- entirely correct -- opinion of European policymakers and electorates that the whole U.S. strategy was fundamentally misguided.
......
Signer does make a very powerful case against Michael Ledeen and the other extreme neoconservatives, with their hatred of even the appearance of diplomacy and their brutish talk of preferring fear over love. But he does not seem to realize that when he speaks of "placing the United States in a community, but as its leader," he himself is proposing a strategy of world dictatorship, albeit of a more civilized kind. Communities get to choose and change their leaders and to shape the way in which they are led. Signer is so convinced of the obvious goodness of America's "essential national character" that he cannot imagine how any country could legitimately or intelligently desire not to have the United States as its leader. In the end, as a true product of the American nationalist tradition, he too believes in U.S. world domination by right of America's unique virtue. Such a program is far beyond both the material and the moral resources of any nation -- even one so genuinely good and great in many ways as the United States.

Also, the CSIS, which appears to have rather important influence on Edwards foreign policy, is close to the Brookings Institute in philosophy, a moderate, centrist, bi-partisan organization, not exactly a bastion of progressive ideas or ideals:

http://www.geeksagainstbush.com/resource s.php

Center for Strategic and International Studies [http://www.csis.org/]
Like the Brookings Institute, CSIS offers moderate solutions to problems. A good place to go to find detailed research on international issues the United States faces today.

Finally, Edwards' "foreign policy guru" Derek Chollet, a CSIS fellow, made some interesting comments that don't appear progressive in nature, rather centrist/moderate:

http://www.csis.org/component/option,com _csis_press/task,view/id,2325

Derek Chollet, an analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said, "These are folks who've known each other for a very long time, who have worked together in extremely stressful situations, who were close collaborators and friends." Chollet has worked with the former secretary of state James Baker, who is heading an Iraq study group that includes Gates.

Referring to Gates, Scowcroft, Baker and George H.W. Bush, Chollet said: "Dispositionally, they all have the same kind of centrist, non-ideological worldview. All four have shown they've excelled at it."

"Putting someone like Gates at the Defense Department sends the signal that the time for ideological crusades is over, the time for solving problems has begun," Chollet said. "And Iraq is the biggest problem we can imagine."

and

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/feature s/2005/0501.chollet.html

But, as tough as all this seems, the country that should cause the most hand-wringing about our long-term security interests is Iran. The world's leading state sponsor of terrorism, Iran is a sworn enemy of the United States, and is committed to the annihilation of Israel. Iran's own Islamic revolution 26 years ago has served as a model and inspiration for Islamic extremists worldwide. This theocracy sits atop of one of the world's largest supplies of oil. It has an abysmal human rights record. It aspires to play a greater regional role, especially in Iraq. It desperately wants an independent nuclear capability--which few doubt it intends to use for weapons--and has moved closer to doing so during the past four years. And to make matters worse, Iran presents a problem that defies easy solutions--for many years, it has been for Americans one of those challenges where a policy of drift looks better than any alternative.

Chollet and Signer are both brilliant minds, it is just that they are decidedly centrist/moderate, from what I am reading to the right of Clinton (yglesias touched on the positioning of Edwards' foreign policy to the right of Clinton in 2003, which he claims has not changed in any appreciable way.)    I personally don't have a big problem with their points of views, and how they shape the Edwards foreign policy, but I can see where a decidedly progressive blogger has major problems with that approach.    

Closer to home, Matthew Yglesias and Derek Chollet butted cyber-heads once on the issue of "withdrawal timetable from Iraq" here:

http://yglesias.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/6 /28/175045/179

The Myth of the Partisan Attack Shield
By Matthew Yglesias | bio
I appreciate what Derek Chollet is getting at with his warning that advocacy of a nuanced timetablish withdrawal from Iraq could turn into a political fiasco for the Democrats. Still, the general form of argument he's making here is something I think liberals need to learn to leave aside. Of course if Democrats advocate the sort of Iraq policy I'd like to see they'll be portrayed by the White House as cowardly appeasers. But then again, there isn't some alternative policy that will cause the White House to respond, "well, that's a serious-minded and patriotic alternative vision that contrasts sharply with our slap-dash and maniacal efforts to run the country."

Trying to devise the attack-proof political line is a fool's errand. Over the long term, you're bound to slip up at some point. Maybe say "global test" or something like that. And even if you don't slip up, it's always possible to just pretend that, say, you claimed you invented the Internet even when you never claimed any such thing. You need to anticipate attacks and prepare to block and counterpunch, but there's nothing that will prevent them.

The article he was responding to, here:

http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2005/06/ a_big_speech_fo.html


by georgep on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:23:14 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Derek Chollet appears as far as I can tell from his own commentsto be a former adviser (2002-2004), not a current advisor.

Regardless, the majority of Matt's article is about Hanlon, who has no connection to Edwards beyond being the author of a book he once read.


by okamichan13 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:16:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As far as I see all the quote and links are still (none / 0)

just one persons opinion based on another opinion based on another opinion.

As far as using a book as basis for opinion by Edwards - maybe whatever Hanlon may have written was taken the opposite.

In other words if you read someone and have taken anything away from what you have written can be the opposite from their position.

If I read a book by a smoker saying how they loved it and they describe all they are going through because now they have cancer - the book won't make me want to smoke, instead it would do the opposite and make me not want to smoke.

Using a book to crucify someone because they have the courage at least to even admit they read it - isn't making me think Edwards took all the negative that Hanlon may be away from reading his co-authored book.

I still think all this could be cleard up by talking to the Person directly and he does have a campaign office with a full staff, and Tracy J can be reached very esaily and that I am sure of.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Thank you. Now that would have been a thoughtful post on concerns about Edwards foreign policy.

Matt's post was sloppy. That's all. I don't think he has a hidden bias. I don't think it was an "attack" on Edwards. I think he'd have thought the same thing for any other candidate. But it was sloppy and it insinuated things that could not be back upped with evidence.

I probably got too touchy about it. But so did Matt in his response.

Just a sloppy post. No harm done.


by adamterando on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't trust any politican (none / 0)

I don't trust any politican.

That said the above comments have shown O'Hanlon isn't an advisor of Edwards, Edwards just liked a book he co-authored. Same goes with Beinart. Obviously that may be troubling to some of the raging lefties here, but not me really, and Edwards of course wants to win and so adjusts his policy views accordingly. I'm fine with Derek Chollet's foreign policy positions as well.


by Korha on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:23:21 AM EST

Re: I don't trust any politican (none / 0)

And the links didn't even go so far as to say edwards "liked" O'Hanlon's book. Just that it was one of many books on his reading list.


by adamterando on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:45:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A higher bar for Edwards (3.00 / 1)

No, Matt, this isn't a comment to criticize you for trying to sway us against Edwards, or to say you're unwittingly unfair for setting a higher bar for Edwards even though he clears the bars set for all the other candidates -- I have a higher bar for Edwards, and I think it's the right thing to do.

Edwards has set himself up as transformational, which means not just tweaking a few ideas, but changing the very fabric of how our ideas come together, changing the underlying structure. When 4/5 pieces look like a whole new structure, but the 5th is solidly in the old structure, the man just isn't transformed.

I'm conflicted because I like Edwards the most, but I'd still vote for someone else (Obama) if I thought he was just trying to talk me into the voting booth. I understand that concessions need to be made to get elected, but they had better be concessions that fit into the new structure, not wholesale relics of a foreign-policy-era gone by, whose only possible motivation could be that he still believes that militarism is the only way to win in America -- another relic of a foreign policy and political era long past.

So Matt, don't listen to the trolls. This was a good piece, a good criticism, totally fair, and still striking. Edwards is good, but he could be great and I'm glad you're pushing him to be.


Progress is Personal | PCCC
by msnook on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:06:39 AM EST

But is it JRE that you are listening to ... (none / 0)

... or people projecting where they would wish their candidate to be onto John Edwards.

The substantial difference between Edwards big foreign policy speech and Obama's big foreign policy speech is that Edwards called for a massive increase in classroom funding through the Middle East, Africa and Latin America as his big increase in foreign policy spending, and Obama called for a bigger military as his big increase in foreign policy spending.

Obama today seems very much like where Edwards was in 2003, someone with hopes for domestic policy progress who falls into the "responsible" foreign policy conventional wisdom box in order to protect his domestic ambitions from a weak on foreign policy attack from the radical right.

In my view, though, the realization that America needs to nurture its sources of soft power if it wishes to exercise soft power, which is exactly where the realpolitik falls down in terms of being genuinely realistic, that's it.

A project to eliminate poverty in thirty years, universal health care, a New Energy economy, accepting rather than denying our leading role in fighting the global warming that we have taken a leading role in creating ... those are transformational policies even compared to where we could have been without the success of the radical right wing.

But as I argue above, the appeal of Edwards for the foreign policy left is not that he is in the foreign policy left, but that he is ready, willing and able to shift the terms of the debate in a positive direction, and nobody else in a postion to possibly gain the nomination gives any sign of being ready, willing and able to do likewise.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I trust him. (3.00 / 1)

I'm honestly not familiar with the advisors or influences you mention, so I'm not going to try to argue with that. Matt, you have your reasons to be worried about those people, and I do think, as someone else said, that you should try to ask the Edwards campaign about it.

I trust John Edwards because I have been paying attention to him since late in 2003 and I have seen a consistency in his approach to things and it seems to me that what he says, he follows up on. He changed his mind on the war. So have a lot of people in America. This is the one place where he's been inconsistent, and given the reality of the situation, are we expecting him to NOT have changed his mind? Changing his mind was the right thing to do.

On his foreign policy, I know that John has said he's learned to trust his own judgement more. To me, that means that whatever advisors he has, he's listening to them only to get input, but then he's making his own decisions. I also want to echo dk2's point above about reading a book. Intellectuals read all kinds of books by people they don't necessarily agree with, to give them a broader range of knowledge. I'm told Edwards has a massive library.

I'm listening to what he's saying about foreign policy, and it sounds pretty darned progressive to me. He's talking about reaching out to people all over the country and forming partnerships with them, creating an international partnership to educate children in the third world, and giving people good reasons to want to follow America. He gets that we need to repair some of the damage we've done in the world and that we'll be more secure if people like us. I don't believe for a moment that this is just talk, because in my experience, John Edwards follows up on his rhetoric.

My examples of this are domestic, but he's been talking a lot about unions and poverty for years. During the past two years, he went out and helps workers organize, he founded a poverty center at UNC, he created a college for everyone program in a poor area in NC, and he worked to help raise the minimum wage in several states. He acts on his words.

I believe I have reason to trust him, because I believe he has earned my trust. Whether you trust him is, of course, up to you.


by sirius on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:18:35 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Matt, I agree with you on the notion that we need to question Edwards over choices of advisors such as this, to try to see where he really stands.

OTOH, how does he stack up against Clinton and Obama here?  We know where Clinton stands - she's as hawkish as a Dem can be, and not be named Lieberman.  Obama's a lot less clear.

There ain't no pony here: in the end, one of these three will almost surely be the Dem nominee.  We're going to have to choose a candidate with very real flaws.  But we need to do what we can to suss out what they actually stand for, and to try to move them in our direction.  Seems that this underlies what you're saying, and if so, I concur.


by RT on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:29:00 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (none / 0)

Ben Evans notes that Edwards  has raised more considerably money in the deep south in the first quarter of 2007 than any other candidate:

"Counting only Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina, Edwards raised $2,723,000. That's more than six times Clinton's take of $440,471 and nearly four times the $705,650 raised by Obama, according to numbers compiled by PoliticalMoneyLine.org, an online repository of campaign finance data."

Among Republicans, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney led the way with $1,127,484, compared with $603,723 for Arizona Sen. John McCain and $384,500 for Giuliani.

Although we are very early in the Silly Season, this kind of thing bodes well for Edwards' ability to either win some of the southern states that the GOP has had a lock on for the last ten years, or at least to force the Republicans to devote more resources to defending their majorities there.

Evans suggests that the reason Edwards is raising so much southern dough is because he is a son of the south himself.  Sure, that helps--but there another possible (and more disturbing) reason may be found in this passage by Matt Stoller:

"To really buy into the idea that John Edwards can be a transformational candidate, you have to buy into the idea that he himself has transformed.  And while he has certainly shown signs of rethinking his approach to politics, and in particular dropping the centrism that once characterized his persona, he's not there.  On January 23, he gave what can only be characterized as a militant and aggressive speech on Iran.  After seeing the fallout, he walked back his rhetoric, but I've been talking to friends in the national security community and they have brought up some worrisome points."

Since the south is generally more disposed toward hawkish foreign policy, it's reasonable to wonder whether Edwards' fundraising success there is predicated on his saber-rattling.  This in turn leads to the question of whether Edwards is running two campaigns: one designed to appeal to anti-war activists and the other designed to appeal to the bomb-bomb-bomb, bomb-bomb Iran crowd.

[Adapted from Framed.]


by jftrumm on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:44:58 AM EST

Re: The John Edwards Trust Issue (3.00 / 1)

Its an interesting argument but doesnt seem to hold much water.

Your argument might be more valid if you could actually show a substanstitive difference between what Edwards says in say Tennessee and what he said in San Diego recently.

Feel free to look it up. Transcripts and videos of his speeches are easy to find. Besides more focus on domestic issues related to rural America, what he is saying about Iraq and foreign policy is exactly the same.


by okamichan13 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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