Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary'

Ok, now that the fundraising silliness is over, let's go back to discussing the race.  What is behind the Edwards boomlet?  I'm not sure, but I'm not chalking it up to his wife's cancer.  That seems to be a good reason to look at Edwards again as he was featured in the media, but it's not a reason to choose Edwards over Obama.  So what exactly is going on?  I can't definitely say, but my guess is that some of what's going on has to do with Obama's internal contradictions.  This is Mr. New Politics.

And yet, remember this?

"We need to recognize, because Judge Alito will be confirmed, that, if we're going to oppose a nominee, that we've got to persuade the American people that, in fact, their values are at stake," Mr. Obama said.

"There is an over-reliance on the part of Democrats for procedural maneuvers," he told ABC's This Week.

What about this?

"I don't think in ideological terms. I never have," Obama said, continuing on the healthcare theme. "Everybody who supports single-payer healthcare says, `Look at all this money we would be saving from insurance and paperwork.' That represents 1 million, 2 million, 3 million jobs of people who are working at Blue Cross Blue Shield or Kaiser or other places. What are we doing with them? Where are we employing them?"

Or this?

If President Bush vetoes an Iraq war spending bill as promised, Congress quickly will provide the money without the withdrawal timeline the White House objects to because no lawmaker "wants to play chicken with our troops," Sen. Barack Obama said Sunday.

Obama has a compelling message centering on change and a new way of doing politics.  It's very very powerful because what he says touches on the notion of what many Americans think, that politics is broken.  This resonance works on the right, in the center, and on the left as well.  Lieberman's whole message in Connecticut in the general - and it worked - was about change.  He represented himself as the person who could get beyond partisanship and fix the problems in DC by bringing a new political attitude.  This worked with Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.  It was a real message, expressing the dissatisfaction that Connecticut voters felt with the status quo, but delivered safely, by a messenger they knew and trusted.

The only candidate on the Democratic side who is a comfortable messenger is Hillary Clinton.  She's got a very strong organization, she's trusted by the Democratic base, and she is seen as capable of beating back the right.  Now I don't support Clinton, and I believe that Senator Clinton's position on Iraq is flawed and dishonest.  But the point is that if anyone is going to successfully pursue a strategy of 'new politics' rhetoric without challenging any real power structures, it's going to be Clinton. The others can't use that channel, since they are newer.  

This means that strategically, there are other avenues open to them.  Obama and Edwards must challenge the political system by taking on specific obstacles and fighting against them, and if necessary, losing.  'This is what would have happened if I were in charge' is a message that works for someone who is new.  The worst of all worlds for a neophyte is to put forth rhetoric promising change, yet to adhere to the status quo.  This is why Clinton's awful Iraq positioning isn't really hurting her, since it isn't being exploited.  Obama in particular is refusing to lead on Iraq, preferring to argue that his one moment of judgment years ago is a good enough reason to trust him now.  I do believe that Obama's decision years ago was incredibly brave, but it's not enough anymore.  Either Edwards or Obama must use the JFK strategy, of America as a can-do country that should put a new generation in charge.  That's what Edwards is sort of moving towards, and it's starting to work even without media attention.

Still, the Democratic base does not trust Obama or Edwards to change this country's direction.  And while I'm warming up to Edwards because he is willing to take on entrenched power in the form of Fox News, I have to say, I don't trust either of them yet.  Obama in particular is just not there in any respect.  He has a habit of doing nothing and whining about it, as he did repeatedly throughout his Senate term when asked why he had done nothing in the Senate.  'I'm just a freshman' he would argue.  And then at the recent Presidential health care forum, his excuse was something along the lines of 'My campaign is eight weeks old'.  I spoke to some union officials who were there, and they were insulted by this.  On Alito, he was downright awful.  On Fox News, he has been nowhere.  And on Iraq funding, he has been counterproductive.  In other words, he talks about how Washington is broken, about the small-mindedness of DC thinking, about the need for freshness, and then at every point when it counts, he sides with the DC establishment.  

I'm not of course talking about his voting record or his time in the Illinois legislature, which were fairly liberal and where he usefully made change at the margins.  I'm talking meat and potatoes, let's change the system put up or shut up time.  And he's just never there.  This has opened up room for Edwards, who, while not as skilled as Obama, is willing to actively advocate for political change.  Does he mean it?  I don't know, as I was shocked by his stance on Iran.  But it's working, and the polls are keeping him stubbornly in the race, as is his impressive for the web traffic fundraising.

Senator Clinton is very strong, and she's proven that she can win a bar fight with the right.  She's moving to a good place on trade and health care, both of which were her weak points among progressives.  She's knowledgeable and impressive in person, and has a very competent team around her.  She's planning on perpetual war, but apparently progressive elites have decided that keeping troops Iraq forever is not worth criticism or debate, since no one is really any different on this.  This machine is what progressive activists, and Edwards and Obama are up against.  It's very powerful.  And so far, the Obama strategy of not challenging power structures is working to collect lots of money and push him up in the polls.  But when that first negative ad hits, when he's smacked for caving to special interests or trying to have it both ways on Iraq, will he have the credibility to say that this is just the old way of doing politics?  I don't know.  But so far, the Democratic base is saying 'Why should I trust this guy?'.  And he hasn't given us a good answer.

He could.  He could drop out of the Fox News CBCi debate.  He could lead on Iraq.  He could call for a return to the public of the public airwaves, and criticize Kevin Martin's FCC and media consolidation.  He could embrace Al Gore's idea of replacing the payroll tax with a carbon tax.  He could call for an end to the war on terror and/or the war on drugs.  He could ask a million young people to register to vote to push the old interests out of the way, and put up a counter on his website.  He could call for punitive measures on CEOs of companies that damage the environment.  There are many transformational 'bar fight' moments he could embrace.  It's incumbent upon all Obama supporters to push him to do any of these things, so that he has a chance to become President and change the country.  This country is crying out for change, and it's up to us to push our candidates to deliver it.

We didn't do that in 2000 and 2004, and look where it got us.

UPDATE AT 1:46: Well looks like we'll see what he's made of. Here's the first RNC attack sheet blasting him for lies. Of course they are mostly nonsense. I think he should swat this effectively away, but they are laying down markers to use later. Obama can make his move at any point.



Display:


Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

What about Sen. Obama standing up to Saint McCain over the speed of lobbying reform? Though McCain was anointed the "winner", time has shown that Sen. Obama was correct to push back against the establishment, even teaming up with Sen. Coburn to provide transparency in government bills?

I think the post has broached an excellent topic. Personally, I think we will see Sen. Obama's true colors soon when the negative ads do hit. I believe the events noted (including that horrible AP "quote") are not commendable, but hardly come close to John Edwards "bar fighting capabilities". Now that he is out of the Senate he preaches on what the Dem. Senators should do, but when he served he capitulated fully to the Bush doctrine, and when debating Dick Cheney, he played "nice guy" got whooped.

We know Clinton is a fighter, we know Edwards claims to be, we'll see soon about Obama.  


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:33:49 PM EST

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

Ah, yes, when Obama apologized to McCain because McCain insulted him for no reason.

"The fact that you have now questioned my sincerity and my desire to put aside politics for the public interest is regrettable but does not in any way diminish my deep respect for you nor my willingness to find a bipartisan solution to this problem."


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Touche. (Damn Google and people with memories...)

My point was Obama stood up to McCain on one of his pet issues, and I believe time has proved him to be correct on the matter, and is great fodder for a Obama/McCain head to head, illustrating McCain being hypocritical and angry... but since McCain seems to be imploding, it appears it will remain an unnecessary, reflexive apology...


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Exactly.  This is when I completely lost any faith I might have had in Obama, as he proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he just isn't strong enough to stand up to the bullies on the right.  We don't need another 98-pound weakling standing as the Democratic nominee.  We do need someone who is ready, willing and able to hit back, and hard.  Obama is going to get massacred if he's the nominee, because he can't or won't.


by Perry Oikos on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (2.00 / 0)

Absolutely!  Obama wins the 08 empty suit award.


by dkmich on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

Excellent analysis.

Issue by issue and checkpoint by checkpoint, Obama's silence isn't a major deal. But now that you've lined up a bunch of checkpoints up and shown that there's no Obama step-up anywhere, it's a bothersome pattern revealed.


Within weeks they'll be re-opening the shipyards And notifying the next of kin --Elvis Costello
by ShagBark on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:35:31 PM EST

The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 2)

Hillary is Teddy.  An establishment candidate because of those who came before her.  A strong voiced liberal who will be a lion in the Senate after losing a presidential bid.

Obama is John.  A charismatic once in a lifetime politician who appealed to the hope of a new generation, but (I'm not a history major, so I may be off) had very few legislative accomplishments.

John is Bobby.  A one-time war supporter (once again, if I misrepresent Bobby's record, I apologize.), who ran for president advocating for the less fortunate in our society.

I will be pleased with any of the three, but prefer Edwards.


by demiowa on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:38:18 PM EST

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 1)

Hillary is NO Teddy.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (1.00 / 1)

AND OBAMA IS NOT JFK. PLEASE.

OBAMA IS WEAK. AND IF HE WINS THE NOMINATION HE WON'T WIN THE PRESIDENCY.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 1)

Funny you said that.  Elizabeth agreed with me once when I said it and inspired this video.

John Edwards - Touching America's Heart Strings  Click here.  Sorry I don't know how to embed it here since the embed code doesn't work.


by Carolina Voice on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (none / 0)

Nobody is Bobby Kennedy, except him.

He was shaped far different things than JRE.


by danIA on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 2)

Stop comparing recent candidates to the Kennedys.

Obama is not the "next JFK," he's Barack Obama.
Edwards is not the "next RFK," he's John Edwards.

Let the candidates create their own legends not take on other ones.


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (none / 0)

Actually, according to Elizabeth, there are so many similarities that even I don't notice.  But, he is like Bobby reincarnated.  Elizabeth said he Bobby was his hero and was probably the single most influencing factor on his life.

From what I remember of Bobby and I followed him regularly as he was a hero of mine too, John and Bobby are from the same mold.  Certainly there is only one John and only one Bobby, but no one can deny that they are quite similar and both were/are great men.  


by Carolina Voice on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He did a little something on Fox (3.00 / 2)

When he "froze out" Fox News, that was good, but he has not followed it up with further Fox action.

When it comes to Iraq, it stuns me that none of the top tier are advocating for more withdrawal. That is a real opening for all of them. As soon as someone says it is time to pull all of the troops out, then at least we can have a discussion about it. Right now, there is none, and our top tier isn't helping that.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:40:38 PM EST

since last fall (3.00 / 2)

Edwards has called for 40-50,000 immediate withdrawl and the rest to get out in ~ a year.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:47:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: since fall of 2005! (none / 0)

In his op-ed of November 13, 2005, Edwards called for 40,000-50,000 troops out then, mostly National Guard and then he called out Halliburton .  He's the only one talking about the contractors and how they are a symbol of "American imperialism".  That's why the media ignores him.  This is dangerous territory and he's been calling out Halliburton and Dick Cheney for years. He's better than a bar room brawler. He's stealthy.  When he was a trial lawyer, his adversaries said, "You didn't see him coming until it was too late."  Let Clinton brawl away. Edwards is 007.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He did a little something on Fox (3.00 / 2)

Why can't the Dem's pass a bill, NO TROOP LEFT BEHIND, that would ensure funds and strategy for withdrawal when either a) the President orders it, or b) war funds run out? (Maybe also include funds for parades and other stuff for soldiers arrival home.) This seems like it would eliminate the "playing chicken with troops on the ground" meme.

Also, When talk about defunding the war, why don't Dems ever talk about defunding Bush or defunding Halliburton? Instead it seems the right's frame of defunding the troops gets inserted.

Does it seems that, now that he is a legitimate candidate, Sen. Obama might be looking at general election strategy, i.e. triangulation?


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Defunding Halliburton (none / 0)

yes, I really don't understand the unwillingness to do this.  It is really an obvious opening


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards has accepted (none / 0)

funding caps in his plan.  Obama and Clinton  voted for the Gregg bill that said Congress will not cut funding.

John Edwards is not Russ Feingold, but he has the best position of the top three on Iraq.

40 to 50,000 out now.
All troops out of Iraq in a year or so.
No permanent bases.

Edwards also supported the Murtha bill.


by littafi on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards only objection (3.00 / 1)

to Reid-Feingold is that it doesn't go far enough.


by david mizner on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 1)

...to stop treating Fox News as a legitimate news source due to the Madrassa story?


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:41:11 PM EST

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 0)

Yes, that was good.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (none / 0)

But then he failed to lead.  John Edwards led on the Nevada debate with FoxNews and on the CNC debate.  Obama was silent.

He may make a good Senate Majority Leader someday, but he does not lead enough to be President.  Obama has a legislative, and not an executive, mentality.  It shows.


by littafi on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:04:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 4)

He doesn't have to get on a Soap Box each and every time. This is so a non issue in running for President.

People keep expecting him to do things the conventional way and on their timing. He has his own timing and he knows what he's doing. Just because some people don't get the strategy doesn't mean it's not effective. John Edwards is throwing EVERYTHING on the table right now.

People have shorter memories than you would assume. Towards the end of the race , before the Primaries, who will look like they have the newer and more fresh vision? Mr. "Vote for me because I was the first?"

I'd take the best over the first any day.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama still has not (none / 0)

said if he will go to the CBC debate.  It's not a "soapbox."  It's leadership and he has not done it.  He simply does not lead.

It's not just this issue.  Obama talks an "unconventional" game, but he votes and supports totally conventional policies.  

Matt Stoller is right.


by littafi on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 1)

But this is HIS issue.  Obama's been the one for several years pounding his fist on the lecturn saying we have to change the way we talk about politics, and that the big failure of the Democratic party is that it isn't effectively communicating to people what it stands for.  Thus, Fox News is presumably right in his wheelhouse, and he watches the pitch go by.  There's a debate that needs to leap bigtime out of the blogs over how the Democratic Party is branded and sold in this country, and it's something that's connected to all the rhetoric of change and bipartisanism that drives the Obama campaign.

In and of itself, maybe this is minor.  But the opportunity to lead was there, and to use this as a jumping off point for bigger discussions of the underlying problems.  But he didn't want it.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 1)

When do we get to see the end product of his grand machinations?  "He has a plan, but he's not going to let us see it" was exactly what the right said during the Iraq war build up.

Turned out that there was no plan there.  When Obama shows me his plan, then, and only then, will I support him.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

"Now I don't support Clinton, and I believe that Senator Clinton's position on Iraq is flawed and dishonest."

Oh Really Matt?

Dishonest? I don't think so. Clinton has said she will leave 75,000 troops in Iraq. How honest is that Matt? Obama and Edwards has said they will end the war if they are elected. In what dream world are they living?  Obama and Edwards won't have the guts to end the war. AIPAC will own the next President and believe me; we are in Iraq to stay.  Obama and Edwards are being dishonest not Clinton. What is Obama's and Edwards's plan to get us out of Iraq? Oh, I know, they don't have one.  Give me a break Matt.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:42:14 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

"If I am elected President, I will end the war."

"I will bring our troops home."


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Or something to that effect.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Matt,

Clinton corrected that statement by indicating she will leave 75,000 troops in Iraq. Did she not say that? What's flawed about that? What's dishonest about that? She's not waddling, she's being realistic Matt. I believe Hillary re-evaluated her initial thoughts on the situation, as well as her comments and determined that we have got to leave troops in Iraq; we have no choice. Don't blame the messager; blame President Bush. I agree with her assessment. That's honestly Matt.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Hold the phone. On this, I wholeheartedly agree with Matt.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Boy do I agree with you.  Senator Clinton is getting the raw end of the progressive stick- She is clearly the most experienced of the top tier-she has worked hard and put her time in.

BTW-don't we still have troops in Germany? Korea?  etc. All the major military leaders believe that we must leave some troops -even though all of us would like it be different-We will have to deal with reality once again under a Clinton Presidency.

Edwards is a wonderful man-Since he hasn't had a full time job for the last two years he has been able to put in a great deal of time trying to become President and his two Americas is  a worthy theme but until he sells his 28,000 square foot house-it's not believeable.  It takes lots of energy-no matter what type of bulbs you use-to run a building(s) that size.  

Obama has been packaging himself for the Presidency most of his life-Surprised (but not shocked) that there has not been  much made of the NYTimes piece last Sunday in the magazine about his Svengali-David Axelrod-In "Obama's Narrator" You get to see what has gone into the making of this candidate-Smoke and mirrors?  You decide-  "For four years Axelrod has had camera crews tracking virtually everything Obama has done in public -- chatting up World War II vets in southern Illinois, visiting his father's ancestral village in western Kenya -- and there were days when the camera crews have outnumbered the civilians.. ..."If we run a conventional campaign and look like a conventional candidacy, we lose," Axelrod says.. ..For him, running campaigns hitched to personality rather than ideology is a way of reclaiming fleeting authenticity. ...... In the 15 years since, Axelrod has worked through Obama's life story again and again, scouring it for usable political material, and he believes that some basic themes come through: that he is "not wedded to any ideological frame or dogma," that he is "an outsider rather than someone who's spent years in the dens of Georgetown," that he is an "agent for change" and has the optimism and dynamism of a fresh, young face. "  Some kind of "authenticity" huh?  

This said-all of our candidates are honorable and worthy Americans- It is just frustrating to see the left demonize the one candidate who could do it all- She may be a good bar fighter (although I think it's been exaggerated)   More importantly, she is a great woman- It's been nearly impossible to get the press and especially the blogs to report anything positive about her.

This is from the same NYTimes piece:

"David and Susan Axelrod have three children in their late teens and early 20s. Their eldest, Lauren, has developmental disabilities associated with chronic epileptic seizures and now lives in a group home in Chicago. But for years her illness required enough of her parents' time that it kept Susan Axelrod out of the work force and kept David from moving to Little Rock during the 1992 presidential campaign. Susan and two other mothers of children with epilepsy started a foundation, Citizens United for Research in Epilepsy (CURE), which Susan runs, to promote research and raise funds for a cure. ... It was January 1999, President Clinton's impeachment trial was just beginning in the Senate and Hillary Clinton was scheduled to speak at the foundation's fund-raiser in Chicago. Despite all the fuss back in Washington, Clinton kept the appointment. She spent hours that day in the epilepsy ward at Rush Presbyterian hospital, visiting children hooked up to machines by electrodes so that doctors might diagram their seizure activity and decide which portion of the brain to remove. At the hospital, a local reporter pressed her about the trial in Washington, asked her about that woman. At the organization's reception at the Drake Hotel that evening, Clinton stood backstage looking over her remarks, figuring out where to insert anecdotes about the kids. "She couldn't stop talking about what she had seen," Susan Axelrod recalled. Later, at Hillary Clinton's behest, the National Institutes of Health convened a conference on finding a cure for epilepsy. Susan Axelrod told me it was "one of the most important things anyone has done for epilepsy." And this is how politics works: David Axelrod is now dedicated to derailing this woman's career."

How many positive stories are out there about Hillary that ever get published?  She is truly an extraordinary woman and deserves the respect and support of her party even if she is not your first choice.


by Menemshasunset on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

If you're going to be spreading Republican themes about the hypocrisy and fakeness of Edwards and Obama, at least don't exercise your own hypocrisy and fakeness by calling them wonderful and honorable and worthy.


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Dont we still have troops in Vietnam too?  Oh wait, we dont.  Why not?  Because in Germany and Korea, the US occupation provided a strong stabilizing presence and was not generally seen by local populations to be an illegitimate aggressive foreign occupation.  

Hillary is getting the short end of the progressive stick because she is a major war apologist, and only came to the anti-war party late, dragged by overwhelming poll numbers.

I am really tired of the Hillary operatives pretending that opposition to her is motivated by irrational reasons.  In politics, you are what you do.  She wanted to be a hero for the left base and grassroots, than she had to count on more than her married name.  

I am more offended by the Democratic party capitulation to Bush when it mattered than I am by the Republican party support of the Bush agenda, and for years, Clinton played a greedy and ambitious game of triangulation for the sake of political convenience.  She doesnt deserve our support and wont get it.


by Winston Smith on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Even further, Germany and Japan are not occupied at all, any more than the UK is.  


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

First of all, I'm not a Hillary "Operative". I'm an average 34 year African-American voter that happens to supports Hillary. I am looking at the issues.  You don't have to agree me.  That's America.  Don't vote for Hillary.  But I am entitled to my opinions and I will state them on this blog and any other for that matter. I believe in Hillary and her leadership abilities. I like Hillary's approach to Iraq.  Troops will have to be left in Iraq. Regarding UHC-Hillary knows the subject very well and will produce a realistic plan. Hillary is pragmatic and is willing to work across party lines. Her husband did that to pass the Welfare Reform bill. I could go on and on to state why I support Hillary.  Supporting Hillary does not make me an "Operative", dumb ass.  


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Troops will have to be left in Iraq.

I know what you and Hillary and Bush have decided about this.  Do you think the Iraqi people should get a say?  Or do you just think..  Fuck them, we conquered their country, we can do whatever the fuck we want with it?


by Winston Smith on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Unfortunately, the Iraqis don't have a `say so' in their country. Why? George W. Bush. America has destroyed that country. We have destroyed its infrastructure, economy and the will of its people.  By destroying the country we have created more enemies and terrorists. If we don't stay in Iraq, we are putting America in danger.  We don't have a choice. We've got to leave at least 75,000 troops in Iraq. Those troops will be our eyes and ears. It's just a matter of time before we build permanent bases. I'm being realistic and it's about time other progressive start thinking realistically.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 09:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

Shorter Stoller:

Obama doesn't pander enough.


"Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat." - William Sloane Coffin, Jr.
by Nasara on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:07 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

No, he does pander.  To insiders.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

he doesn't pander to the netroots, and he doesn't pander to insiders.

his whole campaign is based on the idea that we need to stop playing politics, whether it be to the dem base or to washington insiders.

Obama fights, he just fights in a way we're not use to. he fights for our goals, but fights to get people against him on his side and not to alienate them. on iraq, his goal is to get us out of iraq. his bill makes this explicit. but he realizes that repubs must join dems to get this done, as such his rhetoric is about ending the war together.

there is nothing insider about him, as his donor numbers show, his refsual to take pac and lobby money shows, etc.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

"we need to stop playing politics,"

Can you explain what playing politics means to you?


by adamterando on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

politics to me means looking at iraq as a political game, not as a war that is costing us american lives. Edwards, to his credit, also sees iraq not as a game but as a life or death reality.

when he sasy politcis is not a game he's taking a dig at clinton and the washington establishment, who believe in politics over principles.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Please read above post- Get real- HE IS A POLITICIAN-NOT A SUPER HERO


by Menemshasunset on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:04:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

"there is nothing insider about him"

huh?

1. A sitting Washington Senator

  1. gave the keynote address at the national convention in 2004
  2. His campaign is a centralized, top-down operation run completely by veteran D.C. insiders.
  3. He follows the establishment in things controversial (Feingols censure, Lamont)
  4. His message is framed in very conventional, poll-tested rhetoric

How is he an outsider?
 


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

if you consider the dnc speech insider, than edards is an insider too.

his campaign in not top down- see his fund raising. saying he is running a top down campaign goes against the facts.

he does not follow the establishment on controversail things, he doesn't follow those things because he doesn't thing they're helpful. moreover, he backed lieberman before lamont even entered the race.

you have no evidence that his message is poll tested. his message is about moving past partisanship to accomplish progressive goals. if he was trying to garner votes in the dem primary he would be using populist rhetoric like edwards.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:53:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

> his whole campaign is based on the idea
> that we need to stop playing politics,
> whether it be to the dem base or to
> washington insiders.

Assuming he is elected, Obama will face (1) a Supreme Court stacked with Roberts, Scalia, and Alito (2) an executive branch filled with "loyal Bushies" in civil service positions who can't be fired.

Help me understand how exactly Obama will use his new type of politics to deal with this.  Also touch on what type of Supreme Court Justice he will nominate.

And the Supreme Court perfectly brings up the point:  if Republican presidents nominates Alitos, and Democratic Presidents nominate conciliators...

sPh


by sphealey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Obama recently caused the entire beltway press core to drop their jaws when his netrrots based fundraising strategy beat the mighty Clinton fundraising machine.

Call him an insider, call him an outsider, call him what you will but Obama has made the first serious breach in the levy of the DC establishment that kos and Matt have been railing against.


by Sam I Am on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

> bama recently caused the entire beltway press
> core to drop their jaws when his netrrots based
> fundraising strategy beat the mighty Clinton
> fundraising machine.

True.  What does that tell me about what type of Supreme Court Justice he will pick?  What if he selects Lieberman as Secretary of State and McCain as Secretary of Defense in order to be "bipartisan"?

sPh


by sphealey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

again look at his record. he's progressive and would not pick these people.

he's no bi-partisan in the sense he picks people who do not follow his principles; he's post-partisan in that his rhetoric is meant to unite people not divide people.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:50:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

> he's no bi-partisan in the sense he picks people
> who do not follow his principles; he's
> post-partisan in that his rhetoric is meant to
> unite people not divide people.

I am sorry, but those words have no meaning.  How exactly is Obama going to "unite" people who seeded Roberts and Alito onto the Federalist Society and the federal bench 20 years ago on the prospect of appointing them to the Court when the time was right?  How is he going to unite the 30-percenters?  Does he think the Swift Boat people will just leave him alone after election because he wrote a book?

sPh


by sphealey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

HE FIGHTS? WHAT DOES HE FIGHT FOR? WHAT IS HIS CAUSE? I don't mean that badly but I don't know what his cause is. His calling.

Not playing politics ins't a cause. You would have a solid position on your couses, and perhaps have to develop one for other issues.

I haven't listened intently to him but I still don't have a sense of what stirs him.

He make a GREAT speech. And that will get him far.


by del on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Where does Stoller even suggest that?  Actually, Stoller is suggesting the very opposite.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

I don't want him to pander.  I want him to lead.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me, too. (none / 0)

I think that's crystal clear in your diary.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

No one cares about white sheets and policy papers this far out from an election except for special interests - and yes that includes us!  People want Obama to do what Dean did - have a throwaway line for each interest group in his stump speech (Environmentalist? Check.  Unions? Check.  Women's Rights?  Check.  Health care?  Check.)  It seems like that's what Stoller is asking for as well.  Can Obama be more specific?  Sure, and hopefully he will be.  But 20 months before an election?  No reason to make judgments yet because he won't go for the cheap applause lines.  I appreciate the fact that he's campaigning under his own style.


"Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat." - William Sloane Coffin, Jr.
by Nasara on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (3.00 / 3)

Dean was not giving throwaway lines.  He was the only major candidate challenging the war early on--i.e. in a race where it actually was politically risky to do so.  He made the corporate takeover of the government part of his stump speech and platform.  His campaign was a decentered, truly grassroots effort about changing politics and citizen involvement (Dean Corps, Rapid Response, etc.)

If you read the post, Matt clearly isn't asking for thowaway lines--that's all Obama is offering now.  He's also not asking for white papers on policy either.  Take another look at what Matt actually wrote.  


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

This is one thing that always bothered me about dean people.  it wasn't risky at all for him to oppose the war.  Opposing the war was what made him relevant.  Without that, no one would have supported the former governor of Vermont for president.  There was nothing to risk and everything to gain for dean to take that position.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Then why didn't they all take that position?


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:37:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Because the others had something to lose.  Dean had nothing to lose.  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

What did they have that they were in danger of losing?


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

(And I would add that Sen. Bob Graham (from a swing state) and Kucinich were also against the war, yet their campaigns didn't take off.  Why?)


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:52:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

In 2002, people were already talking about Lieberman, Kerry, and Edwards like they were mainstream, legitimate candidates.  They voted for the war knowing that it was politically risky to oppose it.  They were already on the map for the Presidency.  Dean was not.  Dean was not a credible presidential candidate until he opposed the war.  

Graham was indirect and wordy about why he opposed the war.  He was not communicative about his opposition, and paid the price.

Kucinich was rabidly pro-life until the minute he decided to run for President, and is not telegenic, and spent more time complaining about the attention Dean was getting than he did actually making the case for why people should be voting for him.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

The assumption you're making is that they had the nomination to lose, which means they already owned the nomination, which is clearly illogical.

Because the things that disqualified other candidates who were against the war proves that Dean had other qualities than being against the war that attracted people.  And I can say that in my own case, it was that his campaign (with trippi's vision) legitimately was an effort to change American politics.  (Which is why other candidates' opposition to the war did not or would not have inspired at least me in the way that Dean's campiagn did.)


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Come on.  If Dean ran the exact same campaign, but took Kerry's position on the war, how much support do you think he would have garnered?  He would not have been on the map.  His position on the war was the reason that people began to look at him.  He would not have been relevant without opposing the war.  The other candidates were already establishment candidates with extensive press attention.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

I think that's clearly true.  I'm not arguing against that.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Then how was Dean's position courageous?  The act that made him relevant was a precondition of him going anywhere.  That's what I mean by saying that he had everything to gain and nothing to lose by opposing the war.  Because he might lose either way, but there was only one way that he could possibly win.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

JSure, for most people being against the war is what caught people's attention about Dean, but just turn it around.  He lost the establishment and the media because he was the anti-war candidate.

And again, in the context of my earlier post, being an anti-war candidate alone is clearly not what propelled Dean's candidacy.  There were other minor and major candidates who were aginst the war but whose campaigns went nowhere.

How did Dean have any more or less to lose than the other candidates?


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:38:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He never had the establishment or the media (none / 0)

once again, he was the former governor of Vermont.  

Being against the war was the sine qua non of his candidacy.  That is my whole point.  Opposing the war was not courageous for him.  It was shrewd, intelligent, correct, just, and a ton of other things, but it was not courageous.  It was an obvious opening that he saw, took, and rode a long way.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Dean had an election to lose.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

And who would support the former governor of Vermont without something major to get peoples' attention?  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (3.00 / 1)

Uh, what do white papers and policy positions have to do with what Stoller is talking about? He's asking Obama to lead something other than the fight against cynicism.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

If these groups are in any way connected to a PAC, Barack Obama is prohibited from dealing with them.

Period!


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

But what if what you suggest is leading, Obama sees as pander?


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Talking about 'the politics of change' without suggesting what that change is, other than a vague sense of bipartisianship, is the epitome of pandering.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

As an Obama supporter, I too want him to take on the status quo on an issue.  However, it seems that Obama panders to no one and does his own thing on his timetable.  I disagree with most here that pulling out of a Fox sponsored debate is brave leadership.  There are plenty of folks outside the netroots who will view this as cowardly.  It is our job to maintain pressure on the organizations that strike these deals with Fox and not place our candidates in untenable positions that could hurt him/her in the general.

I missed the explanation as to why you distrust Edwards?  Does anyone wonder whether his perfectly calibrated positions are pandering to Kos/Mydd.  At any rate, it seems to be working.  Don't get me wrong Edwards supporters, I like him {he was my 2nd choice after Wes Clark}.  I would prefer a more evenly balanced analysis, before we convert this site and Kos to "Edwards Central".


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Unfortunately, after posting the notion that he needs to drop out of the CBC/Fox debate on the Obama Blog, the amount of people who supported the idea was small and the number who said he should stay in was huge.  I disagree with them, and really don't think they understand the damage Fox does to the country, but then many are still low info voters, who are probably getting involved for the first time in their life and don't look at the party as whole, just at Obama.  Its frustrating, but while I think No Dem should EVER set foot on fox, I am not sure what the vast majority of America thinks.  


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:33:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Edwards has done at least 4 things that have earned my respect:

  • repudiating his Iraq war vote
  • presenting a responsible and economically credible health care plan
  • cancelling his appearance at the Fox / Nevada debate (and calling Fox the partisan outlet that it is)
  • rejecting criticism of the decision to run despite Elizabeth Edwards' cancer diagnosis; their response was essentially that during the death of their son they proved their ability to act under extreme emotional and practical pressure, and that these are qualities required of a president

Most important, Edwards appears to be consistent in his positions (pace Iran).


by Eqbal00 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:49 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

This diary lays it out clearly.  When push comes to shove--Feingold censure, Lamont--Obama toes the establishment line.  And yet he uses a very conventional anti-establishment rhetoric that always works in politics.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:56 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

I'm not sure I agree with your premise.

This is a narrow segment of the Democratic base - and Obama's actually doing quite well here.

Clinton could never say "we have to change politics" because she's been so involved with the old way of doing things for so long. It'd be disingenuous - and it'd play right into Obama's message.

I think you equate early polls with a level of trust - that's counterproductive. I'm fairly certain that the Democratic base trusts all three candidates to change direction. What the direction is, how far it goes, is another question.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:45:38 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

That's a good point.  All Democrats trust that these candidates will take the country in a different direction, because they will.  But none of them are making the case for fundamentally different power arrangements.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

That's right.  Unlike Dean in 2004, there is no (major) outsider candidate in this race.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

I think you fundamentally have the core answer here: there is no outsider candidate this time. And Obama, I believe and/or hope, is trying to evoke change in a different way. He understands that an outsider candidate will have no hope of winning the primary. The Establishment is too powerful. I agree with PamelaBrown, as her comment implies, that Obama is trying to do something different. He needs the support of the establishment to be able to win the nomination. He can't be a complete outside and still win. I suspect that he'll surprise many and start giving more red meat later in the cycle. He is definitely trying hard not to pander to any constituency. Though I think that "pander" might be the wrong word here. The netroots is seen as fairly strident. I'm not touting that position. But the netroots is seen more for its fighting than for its accomplishments and ability to build coalitions. Again, that's the perception. And I think that Obama is trying to develop a narrative of himself that is about post-partisanship, but in a different way than, say, Liberman did it.

Thanks, Matt, for a diary that I can fully support. I may not agree with all that you've said here. But this feels to me like a conversational piece as opposed to other diaries about Obama that I simply felt did not take into account the reality of the situation. You laid out your case clearly and offered not only criticism but changes that could be made. Thanks. And I hope that we can do that with all of the candidates. I feel like we need to be more supportive, in general, of the candidates we have. Hold their feet to the fire but offer solutions.


by blackmahn on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll be interested in seeing (3.00 / 1)

the April 15th contributors.

I suspect Obama will have a lot of former Clinton donors with a large representation of financial services from NY and Chicago.

I find trial attorneys less threatening to democracy and the blue collar worker than Citigroup and JP morgan.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

I know that both Obama and Edwards have sworn off taking contributions from lobbyists or PACs.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

Yes but I heard that Obama fundraisers WERE calling lobbyist spouses! ! !

Don't know on the Edwards camp.


by del on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:29:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

Yeah, but was that at the direction of the campaign?

I have a feeling that the fundraiser calls were done not at Obama's direction, much like I think the fundraising letters sent to those who wished Elizabeth well, were NOT sent at the behest of the Edwardses... that instead, some staffer took it upon himself.  Both are unfortunate, but I will give them both the benefit of the doubt on this.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

Emphasis on "I suspect"

Opinion. That's all I'm seeing here for the basis of Obamas criticism.

Opinion.

Wow. Some people must love being surprised when they find out they are wrong.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

I appreciate this commentary matt.  I think it's spot on.  

I'm kind of an Obama supporter, but I use "kind of" because I'm waiting for a moment you are calling for.  

He has the opportunity.  He has the support.  He just needs to get some steal veins.  

I think he'll eventually step.  He knows he's caught in the middle now.  But will his "call for action" be too late?  


by Ian Campbell on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:48:38 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

I hope not, but I haven't seen any evidence that he is willing to lead.  It's frustrating.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (2.00 / 1)

Matt,

Please, please, please be patient with Obama. You know that he is not well known in this nation right? Well, what if , just hear me out, but what if, this first wave of campaigning is simply to introduce himself to the American people? I mean, he has the money to go back. Maybe , he's just getting the people to a point where they are used to seeing him. Maybe, his first trips are to get them out of the "Culture shock" and you know what I'm talking about. Now, he can go back and talk to them about serious issues and they won't be distracted by the "Mystique". Do you know what I mean or no?


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

How long do we have to wait before we can actually expect him to behave like a President?


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:49:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Till Mid May or early June.

Please. Just wait. Please.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but was it not Obama that started things early?

As for waiting, I'm waiting anyway since we're still 18 months from the actual election. But all the "just wait, he'll be good" stuff isn't gonna last forever.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

I actually would agree that is valid criticism... I take the same line as OE2008 on this, because this is how his Senate Primary was... If it comes to October or November and still nothing, then I will be the first to say how disappointed I am in him.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

I'm not saying that I'm unwilling to wait. Like I said, I'm waiting on all of them.  But so far, Obama only has potential.  He's got to deliver on it to be taken seriously, and he doesn't have too much longer given that the cycle has moved up.  It's not about convincing me, it's about demonstrating that he's made this thing real.  Right now, perhaps fairly, being President is almost entirely abstract to him from what I read and hear.  As he gears up for the stretch run into the primary season, he will need to internalize in a meaningful way just how much he's trying to take on and start acting like it.

(this is also true of other candidates of both parties, but this is a thread about Obama)


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Everyone has to 'just wait.'  But that doesn't mean that anyone has to or should be excited about him just now.  If Obama were to turn around tomorrow and start acting like Russ Feingold, then I'm sure that he would engender massive enthusiasm from near everyone on the left.  But I refuse to just get excited because he might start acting like an actual progressive in the future.  

That's insanity.  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 0)

I agree.

Obama is not going throw together some slapdash potpourri and call it his position paper on health care and other subjects. He's thinking it out and asking for suggestions from voters.

For those who want likety split, less than 30 minutes or less policies on the spot, this is politics not the drive thru window at Taco Bell. Patience is a virtue.


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

I agree that that is a valid point.  But you also can't blame those who are going to follow someone who has been a bit more vocal in their stances such as Edwards.  

The only issue I have are with those who seem to have completely shut the door on Obama, such as Big Tent Democrat, Kos, Sirota and several others.  I can understand supporting others, but to say he is worthless and will always be that way is sickening and just wrong to me.  I respect Matt's article immensley because he doesn't shut the door... he points out his criticism but leaves it open for Obama to change and fix those criticism... that is excellent objective writing and I give Matt full kudos for it.  


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:46:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

beware of Axelrod (3.00 / 5)

who ran Edwards' campaign in 04 and is running Obama's today.

He was too timid in 04 against Kerry - particularly on trade issues.

He also runs candidates based more on personal narratives and biographies instead of issues.

I think come november/December people will no longer care about freshness and biographies.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beware of Axelrod (none / 0)

Yeah he makes me nervous.  I think if Obama was coming out the same way Edwards is right now, he would be ahead by 5-7%, given his charm and Charisma... too bad we can't meld them into one candidate... Ultimate Dem 2008!


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

Let me know if I am absolutely wrong here, but when did Obama ever lead on an issue that was critically important ever since he gave the key note speech that made him a superstar overnight?

Everyone knows he is an excellent speaker, but I had people like him in my highschool class. They package up everything nicely, it sounds good, but when it is time for action they chicken out and are nowhere found.

To be honest I have not been following Obama all that much, but it really is my feeling that he talks the talk, but hardly ever walks the walk (and this is regarding crucial issues like Alito confirmation, I can really care less if he leads on something where 80% of us agree).

Furthermore all this bipartisanship is just another thing that drives me crazy about Obama. Everything the Republicans do is based on partisanship. So why would you even go that far and make concessions all in the spirit of bipartisanship when the other side never and I repeat never makes concessions.


by Spongebob76 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:51:08 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

he voted against alito.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Obama voted for cloture.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Actually, he didn't.  He expressed discomfort with the fact that Democrats had to filibuster a nominee like Alito, but he did vote to uphold the filibuster.  


by HSTruman on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Fair enough - you're right.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Which Democrats didn't ? (none / 0)


by Cyt on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

I don't think you got my point. The point is not that he voted against Alito, the point is that he should have been a leader in fighting the Alito nomination.


by Spongebob76 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

It's not just about the votes--it never is.  For example, Lieberman voted against the Bankruptcy Bill, after doing everything he could too ensure its passage.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gonzales nomination (none / 0)

Despite his newness to the Senate, Obama was very outspoken as a member of the Judiciary Committee during the confirmation of Gonzales as attorney general.


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

He voted against the Bankruptcy Bill and Pushed some of the Ethics reform legislation.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Matt, I think you're making a good point here, but I feel you're stretching a bit to make your case and, in doing so, feeding into some dubious narratives.  This passage in particular I found to be pretty unfair to Obama:

Obama in particular is just not there in any respect.  He has a habit of doing nothing and whining about it, as he did repeatedly throughout his Senate term when asked why he had done nothing in the Senate.  'I'm just a freshman' he would argue.

I actually think Obama's record in the Senate is pretty impressive for someone who has been there for such a short period of time.  The best take on Obama's Senate record that I've seen is this post by Hilzoy.  I highly recommend it.  


by Anonymous Liberal on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:53:44 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

I know. It's  a little annoying because I really like this dude. I think he's brilliant but his bias just irks me sometimes. However, I have come to respect that this is his website and he has the microphone. That doesn't mean he's right. It just means he's got the microphone and I admit, I like his zeal and I look forward to enjoying his posts after the Primaries because I know that when Obama wins, he will be just as aggressive on behalf of the Democratic candidate as he is now and will serve as a powerful tool. That's why I still like him even though we are pushing for two different candidates. He's got great potential and he's a powerful machine against the Republicans and I will be looking to him to help combat their right wing rhetoric.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

How do you know this?  Do you just have a feeling?  What evidence to you have to indicate that 'he has a plan?'


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

But do you really think that he's spent the past two years taking full or even significant advantage of his stardom?  There are very few politicians in this country with the sort of potential to start and lead debate in the wake of 2004's election, and he didn't take it.  You can give all sorts of perfectly reasonable explanations as to why he didn't, and that's fine.  But the fact is, he could have gotten any slot on any news program anywhere over the past two years to talk about anything at all, and he didn't do it.  He may not have been able to push things through the Senate by talking about them, but he could have made sure that people were paying attention and that issues were buzzing.  And he didn't.  Maybe he's just not someone who's going to do that and I have to live with the disappointment of such an opportunity being given to someone who wasn't ever interested in using it, but for him to suddenly wake up now and decide that since he's got that sort of access and popularity, he should be able to submit that inandof itself as justification to be President...I'm not buying it.  If and when he figures out how to weild this opportunity for greatness, I'm interested.  Until then, I'm not wild about someone who's more comfortable going 80% of the way.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:43:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

I think he lowered his spotlight some because had he done a lot of that, many party leaders would have slapped him down immediately for his bravado.  Hillary and JRE were not outspoken their first two years... granted, JRE was not known, but Hillary was very much so...


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 0)

Yes, and to varying degrees I apply the same criticism to both of them, and to many other Democrats.  I don't think that fear and deference are excuses at a time when the Democratic Party needs major change but has allowed Biden and Lieberman and Carville et al to be the public image of the party on Sunday mornings and beyond.

I understand that he was trying to work the room, and I understand that there's great value in that.  But seriously, he couldn't have started discussions?  He couldn't even have done it in Illinois?  Like I said, it wouldn't have had to come with legislative bravado, but why not, if nothing else, present himself to the party as a pretty kickass mouthpiece for their agenda?  People WANT to listen to Obama.  They want to get amped up and go do something for him.  That he's had that ability on the national stage for 2+ years now and not really mobilized people to do anything but contribute to the DSCC and work towards his own advancement is disappointing.

And again, just because I'm talking about Obama now doesn't mean that it isn't legitimate criticism of others as well, but we're talking about Obama.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

All in all I think we have lost sight of the campaigning and what they plot out.  Some of this is due of course to Edwards.  I'm  not faulting but, he has not had a regular job and has had time to write up positions and do an image thing.  This has thrown off the usual campaigning mode.
Usually the first part is the candidates introducing themselves and talking in general terms of why they are running, blah blah.
Then, the middle part, around summer, they get into specifics, issues and stands.
Because of the advantage of Edwards having two years to hone this, people are now upset with the other candidates and collectively stomping their foot and demanding the same thing.
They lose sight of the fact that the others have day jobs that are quite demanding and have already plotted out their campaign route of rolling out positions in the middle part.  Now everyone demands it right away.
I think people need to realize that for the most part most candidates are going to have similar ideas and proposals, that if they are serious candidates, do people really think they are not going to put out policy????  And that at the moment we are wrapping up the 'getting to know your candidate' portion of the program.
People have got to take a breath, quit being so hyper critical of the candidates and realize that all of them are intellegent and well meaning and will be putting things out.
Besides, how many really read these things from cover to cover, word for word????
Afterall, no one is screaming at the repubicans about white papers and rushing for policy wonky stuff right now.  Because they know that will come in time.
let's all take a deep breath and quit complaining about stupid stuff and let them do their thing and put the stuff out as time allows.
Deep breathing.
by vwcat on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:57:14 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

Um, Obama is in the freaking United States Senate. It's not like he's pulling two shifts at the factory and he doesn't have time to think about policy and specific proposals. That IS his job.


by adamterando on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:04:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 5)

I was shocked at Obama's recent health care forum in Iowa. He rejected single payer out of hand and mentioned only the most generic policies to deal with the health care crisis.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:57:49 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

ObamaEdwards (if that is your real name...) why the 1 rating?


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Good question.  Or this one, too:

by Spongebob76 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:51:08 PM EST


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (1.00 / 6)

Because I disagree. Obama did not reject any idea. He is still gathering input from all who will be effected by his plan. Obama takes UHC very seriously and wants a plan that is passable, not just a plan for the sake of saying he has one. The American people , employers and the industry are all important aspects of that plan. That's why. He has not outright rejected anything.

Besides, this rating system is tantamount to the English House of Commons. At least , that's how I see it. Have you ever watched them in action? It's hilarious but lively.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 6)

It's exceptionally classless and petty to "1" rate every comment that you disagree with (which you seem to be doing). The ratings aren't meant to indicate whether you like what someone said, but rather whether it was a legitimate contribution to the discussion.  That sort of behavior just makes you appear vindictive and bitter.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (2.00 / 0)

Aaaaaaand thanks for confirming my point.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (1.00 / 1)

I'm just messing with you. LOL

Can I not disagree?

C'Mon. We're in the same family here people. Lighten up. I'm not your enemy. The Republicans are your enemy and I would defend you till the end against them. You know this.

Lighten up people!

Pleaseeeeeeeeee!


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

C'Mon. We're in the same family here people. Lighten up. I'm not your enemy. The Republicans are your enemy and I would defend you till the end against them. You know this.

You sure have a funny way of showing it.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Sure, Obama supports universal health care and he says so. That doesn't mean that he supports single payer - in fact, he rejects it out of hand. See Ezra Klein's post in TAPPED.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

You can't just rate people with a '1' because you disagree with them.  That's ridiculous.  If that was the standard, MYDD would be nothing but a series of flame wars.    


by HSTruman on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (1.00 / 1)

Fine. Okay, Whatever. You're too uptight.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why the "1" rating to this: (none / 0)

"Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (2.00 / 2)

Edwards has done at least 4 things that have earned my respect:

repudiating his Iraq war vote

presenting a responsible and economically credible health care plan

cancelling his appearance at the Fox / Nevada debate (and calling Fox the partisan outlet that it is)

rejecting criticism of the decision to run despite Elizabeth Edwards' cancer diagnosis; their response was essentially that during the death of their son they proved their ability to act under extreme emotional and practical pressure, and that these are qualities required of a president

Most important, Edwards appears to be consistent in his positions (pace Iran)."

What is wrong with that?  Perhpas you should change your name to Obama/Obama.


by littafi on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:46:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why the "1" rating to this: (3.00 / 1)

The last line would be the only questionable one I can see.  But the rest seems fine, even it is is wron... I mean, I disagree with you ;-)


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why the "1" rating to this: (none / 0)

I did not write the comment I quoted, just could not understand why it was rated that way.  Seemed like overkill.  I think we agree.  :-)


by littafi on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:21:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

I don't think he rejected it out of hand at all, but you're certainly right that he's not married to single payer.  Obviously it's fair to criticize him for that, but personally I don't view that as anything other than a policy disagreement.  If he actually gets universal coverage done, in any form, I think he'll deserve credit.

FYI, folks should give your some '3's to make up for the ridiculous '1' you got.  I think your criticism is overly heated, but it certainly doesn't deserve a '1.'  


by HSTruman on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

I agree that it will be an accomplishment for whoever gets universal health care passed, but it does matter how you get there. Single payer is a reasonably good idea. A solution where everyone is mandated to buy into private insurance with minimal subsidies for the poorest Americans is a terrible idea.

I'm still curious to see what Obama comes up with, and if it's a good solution, he'll get my praise. I remain unimpressed.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:29:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

DO you have a link to this?  I remember his NH one leaving this as an open option.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

edwards boomlet? (3.00 / 1)

Can you make one without breaking eggs?

Perhaps instead of the answer, we should focus on what is the question?  Matt seems to be asking us to question - is Obama losing a bar fight primary?

I think kid oakland asks the best question..

Senator Obama, what does leadership mean?  Do you get out in front and lead the way with a clear message, or do you follow and equivocate?  Why does your message seem to be "wait and see" and not "lead the way?"  You may think you have more time to form a leadership style. Many of us, however, are hoping to see real strategic leadership from you right now.  That means getting in front of issues.  Will you do that?

-=-

"I think that the reason I got into politics was simply because I saw the law as being inadequate to the task."-- Obama's reply at Charlie Rose when asked for his intentions in seeking public office

I think Obama has a tendency to take a direct and consistent approach on things that fall onto his radar screen and right now he's just raising cash, all smiles - not too sure whats really going on there behind the scenes. Edwards has taken some early positions...


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:05:30 PM EST

Re: edwards boomlet? (none / 0)

Didn't you also have early posts saying Edwards was weak and Obama was great... you seem to be flip flopping as much as Bush does.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iran (3.00 / 2)

Matt can you explain the substantive difference between John Edwards and Obama's stance towards Iran?

It seems that one event really turned you off to Edwards, but you fail to mention Obama's similar rhetoric when he spoke of it.


by adamterando on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:05:39 PM EST

Re: Iran (none / 0)

It was Edwards AIPAC speech that set Matt off.  


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iran (none / 0)

Right, I know. But he went all crazy over it and then Obama said the same thing and not a peep. I don't particularly care. I don't Matt is "pro-Obama" or "anti-Edwards". I'd just like to know why the one event pissed him off so much and the other didn't.

Maybe because he was really close to supporting Edwards whole-heartedly and then when he said that it broke his heart.


by adamterando on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Youtube footage of Obama's defeatist comments (3.00 / 1)

Here is surprise youtube footage of Obama backing the wrong side  - he stands up for the other team.. I am just so saddened to see this, but you edwards fans out there can probably use this against him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WJsuM19- 8c


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:14:15 PM EST

Re: Youtube footage of Obama's defeatist comments (none / 0)

Typical pablum


by citizen53 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton on Iraq (none / 0)

Now I don't support Clinton, and I believe that Senator Clinton's position on Iraq is flawed and dishonest

Flawed, I buy. But I think she has been a great deal more honest than Edwards or Obama who essentially have the same policy prescription--indefinite occupation by "non-combat" troops.

This is a very difficult issue.  The plan for withdrawal has to leave the Iraqis with a national defense force, or one of their neighbors will provide it for them, after a lengthy period of bloodshed.

Nobody is talking about this. In an otherwise very candid and clear chat on FDL yesterday, Jerry Nadler did not answer the question of how a withdrawal could be managed, and what will happen to those permanent bases.

And I'm supporting the nominee, whoever it is. My primary vote doesn't matter. All the serious candidates are good.


by jayackroyd on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:22:49 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

I think that as we get to know Obama and his campaign we will find that he does not intend to govern or campaign from polarized positions.  He is not going to be that lightening rod that some people crave; and his leadership style will tend to be inclusive, which may drive some people crazy.

I thought his comments on health care were a breath of fresh air.  He isn't certain, he leans toward the Canadian system but isn't sure it is tenable in the U.S.  How rare is it for a politician to speak so honestly like that rather then seek to position himself in the best light?  


by aiko on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:33:49 PM EST

The candidate I hope for (3.00 / 2)

The voting public talks so much about how the nature of politics has to change because it's all that they hear. It's all that they are conditioned to ask for.

If a leader is worth his or her weight in democracy, progress, and social justice, he or she would frame their message to the people (in a way that the MSM could not avoid) to condition the voting public to start demanding change on the issues as those issues relate to their lives (including the Iraq War, for which the public has never been made to feel particularly involved in any way) - instead of a meaningless change in the nature of the politics.

We have to ask ourselves - are the individual Democratic candidates appealing to the voting public for solid progressive change - or more of a change in the nature of the horserace?

I want the candidate who best turns around the voters' thinking about why they vote for the one they vote for  - despite a brainwashing media (whether the brainwashing's intentional or not) that poses a barrier to a message about anything other than wedge issues and "the horserace".


by iddybud on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:34:57 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

I'm talking meat and potatoes, let's change the system put up or shut up time.  And he's just never there.

I could kiss you for this. :-)


by KimPossible on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:35:16 PM EST

The problem with Obama in a nutshell (3.00 / 1)

He hired Robert Gibbs (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2 /22/134458/142) as his Campaign Spokesman to deliver the message that Barack wants to "Change the tone" in Washington. The divide between what Obama says he wants to do and what he actually does is startling.

http://www.draftgore.com


"We are building a political movement - not one that wields the power of lobbyists and corporate interests, but the power of millions... who seek change." -Dean
by Jim in Chicago on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:37:49 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (2.66 / 3)

There are facts that agree with this interpretation of Obama, and there are facts that don't agree with this interpretation of Obama, in my view.  

This is the problem with analysis, when you have a personal stake in the outcome.  Certain things loom large, while counter-indications are dismissed or not seen.

So, on a point by point basis, regarding Obama's internal contradictions -

Regarding the quotes, and other interpretations -

a. Alito - I think this is the most unforgivable, in my opinion.  Roberts has a pedigree, and truly, despite not being my choice, is a valid choice for Supreme Court.  Not so Alito.  And "procedural moves" are really all democrats had to work with.  There still might have been a case that Obama was calling for a line in the sand - say WHY Alito was not good, clearly, firmly, etc - rather than procedural maneuvers - but I think both were important.

b. Healthcare theme.  One, Obama HAS in other quotes, come out in favor of universal healthcare. Two, one way to CONVINCE people of your point of view, is to forthrightly air their objections, as a way to mollify/neutralize them.  Obama is VERY good at this - the basis of his success at both Harvard, at as an organizer.  So beware of one quote generalizations.  On the other hand, of course, his healthcare policy is still undeveloped.  But given his skills, I would say he would sign off on a good plan, given the opportunity.

c. The Iraq comment.  Again, I think this comes about with the organizer's view of fully validating an objection, in order to neutralize it.  Here of course, he is saying that the "troops will get what they need", so you don't have to worry about that.  (Now does he need to give the game away?  You are correct, he doesn't.)

The salient point here, is to RECOGNIZE the validation strategy of the objection, in order to defuse the objection.  

If our current political framework wasn't so screwed up - republican dishonest war against liberals, with faux objections - this would actually be a GOOD thing.

So Obama's strategy, with GOOD objections, or even with bad ACTUAL concerns, however wrongly arrived at by an american citizen or a Republican, is a good thing.

With completely dishonest FAUX objections, known to be false, even when uttering them, then Obama's approach is not a good thing, unless you happen to be very very good at verbal, strategic, and framing judo.

As far as the whole bar fight analogy, I actually think that his team has been pretty good at hitting back strongly, with a good frame, when politically struck.  (In that sense, having an "attack dog" in terms of hardball politics on his side is a good thing, as long as the weapon (person) is aimed correctly).

So I don't think it is accurate to say he can't handle a political bar fight, at least, not at this point.

And Iraq - a couple of weeks ago, I saw Brian Schweitzer - Kos's guy - on the Charlie Rose show.  He said himself, there would be probably 100K troops in the greater Middle East area, for the foreseeable future, because he need to keep the energy flowing, as long as we can.  He said something like 20k to 30K troops would most likely be in Iraq, although he did offer that perhaps these troops would be on the periphery.

(There's a whole post to be written there, about what, exactly, is the space between the progressive netroots troop strategy for the ME region, and the foreign policy experts troop strategy for the ME region, but the subject of another post.)

Not to mention, as far as voting goes, you can't claim Obama's votes are "worse" than Clinton's or Edwards.  

It's a strange balancing act, for Obama, as you say - unifying messages, combined with honoring an objection by validating it, before moving to neutralize that objection, and how his ability to unify works, in this era of dishonest smearing partisanship.  


by jc on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:41:57 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

HE IS A POLITICIAN-No different from others- pure and simple-
You can analyze all you want but he will now do whatever it takes to reach his lifetime goal-

Obama has been packaging himself for the Presidency most of his life-Surprised (but not shocked) that there has not been  much made of the NYTimes piece last Sunday in the magazine about his Svengali-David Axelrod-In "Obama's Narrator" You get to see what has gone into the making of this candidate-Smoke and mirrors?  You decide-  "For four years Axelrod has had camera crews tracking virtually everything Obama has done in public -- chatting up World War II vets in southern Illinois, visiting his father's ancestral village in western Kenya -- and there were days when the camera crews have outnumbered the civilians.. ..."If we run a conventional campaign and look like a conventional candidacy, we lose," Axelrod says.. ..For him, running campaigns hitched to personality rather than ideology is a way of reclaiming fleeting authenticity. ...... In the 15 years since, Axelrod has worked through Obama's life story again and again, scouring it for usable political material, and he believes that some basic themes come through: that he is "not wedded to any ideological frame or dogma," that he is "an outsider rather than someone who's spent years in the dens of Georgetown," that he is an "agent for change" and has the optimism and dynamism of a fresh, young face. "  Some kind of "authenticity" huh?  


by Menemshasunset on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Your "analysis" is just plain wrong and ridiculous...

This was for his Senate campaign and re-election campaigns... not for President.  They had the footage though and obviously used it.  Many politicians in this day and age do the same thing, SINCE WE LIVE IN A MEDIA CENTRIC SOCIETY.

I would bet every bit of money I have that Edwards or Hillary have the same kind of footage and have done the same thing.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 5)

A few points

Obama in particular is just not there in any respect.  He has a habit of doing nothing and whining about it, as he did repeatedly throughout his Senate term when asked why he had done nothing in the Senate.  'I'm just a freshman' he would argue.

I think you leave out a few things. He's becoming the top Dem in the Senate on nonproliferation issues. It hasn't gotten much coverage in the media, but it's more discussed by D.C. (wonks). Actually, the first time I heard of it was from a hard-core Republican of all people. Obama also had that earmark database legislation pass (cosponsored w/ Coburn), which given the earmark bonanza in the last decade or so, is "challenging the power structure."

If anything, Edwards hasn't done much to challenge the 'power structure' until recently. Edwards was on Fox in January and has probably made far more appearances on Fox than HRC (not a difficult feat given that HRC doesn't do much TV period). Obama has appeared on Fox a handful of times, but not since the fake madrassa story. I know Obama and Roger Ailes had a phone conversation after the madrassa story got debunked, but no apology has been offered yet.  Obama's frozen Fox out, but the status of this isn't clear.

And so far, the Obama strategy of not challenging power structures is working to collect lots of money and push him up in the polls.

Obama, Edwards and Clinton have all been collecting money from traditional power structures. Edwards has been doing more frequent but smaller fundraisers (esp. in Hollywood), and his time as an advisor to a hedge fund is going to come in handy when it comes to donations from Wall Street and the financial sector. Obama has long time supporters from Chicago and is developing a larger national fundraising network... Clinton, obviously, has the Clinton machine.

I think part of why Obama is losing the 'bar fight primary' is the information that is out there, which might point to the problems that a "on the fly" Obama campaign is having. They hadn't been doing some of the structural campaign building that Edwards and Clinton have been doing, until very recently. Obama could win more fights in the "bar fight primary" if his people pushed more of what he did while in the IL State Senate and more of what he has been doing in the US Senate.  And if you're going to criticize Obama for whining and then not leading, then, what about Edwards when he was in the Senate?  He has an anti-poverty agenda now, but what about some of his votes in the Senate that make life more difficult to poor and working class families?  

If we're just talking about Edwards and Obama, then, there are 3 major differences that explain the bar fight primary results as of now.

  1. Different stages of the campaign. Edwards did the biographical intro thing 2 years ago. Obama is doing that now. Timing is an issue here.
  2. The information circulating in the blogosphere and what isn't circulating. (points for Edwards' campaign ppl. demerits for Obama's campaign ppl)
  3. Edwards has an edgier style this time around. Obama's style is the same he's had for a long time now (he speaks the same now as he did when he wrote his first book). Obama just simply isn't a firebrand, and given his childhood and young adulthood, I don't think he ever will be. Obama is a progressive pragmatist.  Edwards (after 2003) is a populist crusader. If you wanted to score the two, they'd probably both come out even, but you might root for Edwards a little more because he tugs at activist heartstrings better.


by Newsie8200 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:55:25 PM EST

Pushing Candidates is Good (3.00 / 2)

I don't agree with all the criticisms in this post, but I appreciate the fact that Matt is trying to push candidates to lead on progressive issues.  Ultimately, irrespective of the details, that is a good thing.  However, I'm not sure that all of the statements cherry picked above provide an accurate picture of what Obama stands for.

Truth be told, I think each quote cited above is a relatively accurate assessment (by an observer) of the problems democrats are facing.  Now, clearly Obama needs to stop thinking about the current problems in the abstract and start providing solutions.  But none of the statements reflects a betrayal of progressive values.  

We shouldn't have to rely on filibusters to stop the Alito's of the world.  And FYI, he voted against cloture anyway.  There are significant costs associated with a single payer system, both political and economic.  That's not a reason to reject such a plan -- and he hasn't -- but I don't fault him for considering other options as well.  Ultimately, I want everyone covered and the "how" is less important.  Finally, on Iraq he said something stupid.  But if anyone is entitled to some rope on that issue, it's him and not Edwards or Hillary.  

Anyway, just my random assortment of thoughts.  Regardless of the specifics, I certainly share Matt's hope that Obama becomes a more effective leader as time goes on.  And, just to diffuse any anger by Edwards supporters, I would be quite happy with an Edwards administration starting in 2009.  

Either Edwards or Obama would likely be the most progressive politician to occupy the White House since FDR and Truman.


by HSTruman on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:58:28 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

You're wrong.

She and Bill were frolicking at fashion designer Oscar de la Renta's estate on the Dominican Republic.

Right country, wrong person.


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:24:33 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

Well the question presumes Obama is a bar fighter at heart.  If he is I have not seen any evidence of it. His languid, laid back demeanor appears to be that of a listener and problem solver. He is great at taking apart problems and putting all the pieces back together again provided he can have peace and quiet while he is doing it. He is a man of reason not confrontation.

If your house were about to be siezed and you had the option of hiring Obama, Edwards or Hillary to represent you who would you pick? Well Edwards has a well-honed instinct for advocacy and a hard scrabble up bringing that places his sympathy with the underdog. Hillary is not afraid of a fight, she might annoyingly cross all the i's and dot t's, and she might believe in going through all the tediously correct legal procedures, it might take years, but you get the sense she has an instinct for fighting and in the end you'd get your house back.  Obama? I just don't know. He might suggest a settlement and get me half my house.

What I'm trying to say is that I just don't see that killer instinct in Obama that president's need. I think at heart he is a writer and thinker who is incredibly gifted with words. We've seen Obama's lovely velvet glove, but where is the steel fist?


by superetendar on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:27:24 PM EST

I know it's a cliche... (3.00 / 2)

... but nobody here should really pontificate about what Obama thinks or how he "leads" without reading the Audacity of Hope. I know most who don't like him won't read that book. But, you really should. I think you'd find it very revealing and would explain a lot about him. I doubt you'll agree with him, but at least you'll know where he's coming from.

In the first 20 pages, he pretty much addresses and responds to every single (and there are actually very few when it comes right down to it) criticism brought up against him.

This argument will never be settled. Because, as others have mentioned upthread, Obama will never play the part that some in the progressive community wish him to play.

Leadership on withdrawal?

The only candidate to actually propose legislation to do so...

The Iraq De-Escalation Act of 1997, which calls for the troops to start coming home almost immediately and for "no permanent bases" in Iraq.

So, he leads, but his definition of leadership is simply a different one than that of partisan war horse.

It appeals to some and not to others. Only the polls in the primaries will show which candidate's approach is the most popular with Democratic voters. Until then, this circular argument will continue. And, frankly, there really is nothing gained from continuing it.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:31:48 PM EST

Re: I know it's a cliche... (1.00 / 1)

Obama is a placater, a peace-maker, a wimp.  He doesn't like conflict so much that he avoids it.  He wants to be loved by all - kumbayaaaaaaaaaa!  Bet HRC could literally kick his ass.  Regardless of gender, I need a little more strength and a little more meat in my ELOs, thank you very much.


by dkmich on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good luck with that... (none / 0)

I'm guessing you've never read the Audacity of Hope, eh?

Name a single bar fighter who's won presidency in your lifetime...

Name one who didn't preach a message of national unity (except Bush in '04).


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good luck with that... (none / 0)

Bar fighter?  I'm not looking for mud wrestling skills.  Howard Dean comes to my mind.  He said what he meant, meant what he said, and was right.  He was willing to stand up, win or lose.  Yes, this is exactly what I mean.  


by dkmich on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 04:03:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

By the way, Matt, the RNC link is wrong. You linked to the Dean quote that you posted on BB - although it's pretty funny in the context of your post.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:32:14 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 0)

You cannot invoke King's name ever without talking about poverty.  Read this article on the new war on poverty. "A New Poor People's Campaign."  That it takes the White Guy to be the champion of the poor is ironic.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/04 /09/a_new_poor_peoples_campaign.php


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:04:29 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Vermonter I must agree with you wholeheartedly. Where has the democratic party gone? I am a passionate liberal, but this conversation has crossed the line. You fault Obama for wanting to compromise? That is what this country was founded on! Partisan politics has gotten us no where, and will put us two steps back (again) if it continues.

But, on to another topic. It hurts me to think HRC could win the primary. Has anyone looked at polling?! 1/2 the country will NOT vote for her, plain and simple. She has no chance of winning a general election...wake up folks!


by mattmfm on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:23:40 PM EST

Clinton, the flip flopper (none / 0)

To fault Obama for his Iraq comments while Hillary has flipped her position completely...ehh, bias?

This winter she stated she was not going to vote for a cutoff of funding. Now a few days ago she stated she was backing the house bill to cut off funding.

She also stated she was opposed to a deadline. Now she claims she supposed a deadline.

In the New York Times interview, Clinton said that she would keep troops in Iraq for intelligence, training, and logistical support, air support, interdiction of Iranian infiltration, and pursuit of al Qaeda but the House will only supports intelligence, training, and air support.

FLIP FLOP


by mattmfm on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:29:35 PM EST

Why Do You Lie? (none / 0)

So Obama is not calling Americans to action?  Liar.

From Obama

We meet here at a challenging time for labor and a challenging time for America. All across the country, from nurses in Chicago to correctional officers in Atlanta to sanitation workers in L.A., Americans have been looking to the future with more anxiety than hope. As transformations in technology and communication have ushered in a global economy with new rules and new risks, they've watched their government do its best to try and shift those risks onto the backs of the American worker. And they wonder how they will ever keep up.

In coffee shops and town meetings, in VFW halls and right here in this room, the questions are all the same. Will I be able to leave my children a better world than I was given? Will I be able to save enough to send them to college or plan for a secure retirement? Will my job even be there tomorrow? Who will stand up for me in this new world?

In this time of change and uncertainty, these questions are expected - but I want you to know today they are by no means unique. Throughout our history, they have been asked and then answered by Americans who have stood in your shoes and shared your concerns.

In the middle of the last century, on the restless streets of Memphis, it was a group of AFSCME sanitation workers who took up this charge. For years they had served their city without complaint, picking up other people's trash for little pay and even less respect. Passers-by would call them "walking buzzards," and in the segregated South, most were forced to use separate drinking fountains and bathrooms.

But as the civil rights movement gained steam and they watched the marches and saw the boycotts and heard about the passage of voting rights, the workers in Memphis decided that they'd had enough, and in 1968, over 1,000 went on strike.

Their demands were simple. Recognition of their union. The right to bargain. A few cents more an hour.

But the opposition was fierce. Their vigils were met with handcuffs. Their protests turned back with mace. One march was interrupted by police gunfire and tear gas, and when the smoke cleared, 280 had been arrested, 60 were wounded, and one 16-year old boy lay dead.

And still, the city would not give in.

Now, the workers could have gone home, or they could've gone back to work, or they could've waited for someone else to help them, but they didn't. They kept marching. They drew ministers and high school students and civil rights activists to their cause, and at the beginning of the third straight month, Dr. King himself came down to Memphis.

At this point, the story of the sanitation workers merges with the larger saga of the Civil Rights Movement. On April 3rd, we know that King gave his "I've Been to the Mountaintop" sermon. On April 4th, he was shot and killed by James Earl Ray as he stood on the balcony of the Lorraine hotel. And on April 8th, a day before he was buried, his wife Coretta led the sanitation workers on one final march through the city of Memphis - a march that would culminate in the union contract that the workers had sought for so long.

This is the legacy you inherit today. It's a legacy of courage, a legacy of action, a legacy of achieving the greatest triumphs amidst the greatest odds. It's a story as American as any - that at the edge of despair, in the shadow of hopelessness, ordinary people make the extraordinary decision that if we stand together, we rise together.

What those workers made real in Memphis - and what we have to make real today - is the idea that in this country, we value the labor of every American. That we're willing to respect that labor and reward it with a few basic guarantees - wages that can raise a family, health care if we get sick, a retirement that's dignified, working conditions that are safe.

The struggle to secure these guarantees has always been at the heart of the labor movement - and the opposition has always been powerful. But today, we're facing a challenge like none we've seen before.

At the very moment that globalization is changing the rules of the game on the American worker - making it harder to compete with cheaper, highly-skilled workers all over the world - the people running Washington are responding with a philosophy that says government has no role in solving these problems; that the services you all provide every day are better left to the whims of the private sector.

They're telling us we're better off if we dismantle government - if we divvy it up into individual tax breaks, hand 'em out, and encourage everyone to go buy your own health care, your own retirement security, your own child care, their own schools, your own private security force, your own roads, their own levees...

It's called the Ownership Society in Washington. But in our past there has been another term for it - Social Darwinism - every man or women for him or herself.

It allows us to say to those whose health care or tuition may rise faster than they can afford - life isn't fair. It allows us to say to the child who didn't have the foresight to choose the right parents or be born in the right suburb - pick yourself up by your bootstraps. It lets us say to the guy who worked twenty or thirty years in the factory and then watched his plant move out to Mexico or China - we're sorry, but you're on your own.

It's a bracing idea. It's a tempting idea. And it's the easiest thing in the world.

But there's just one problem. It doesn't work. It ignores our history. It ignores the fact that it has been government research and investment that made the railways and the internet possible. It has been the creation of a massive middle class, through decent wages and benefits and public schools - that has allowed all of us to prosper. And it has been the ability of working men and women to join together in unions that has allowed our rising tide to lift every boat.

Yes, our greatness as a nation has depended on individual initiative, on a belief in the free market. But it has also depended on our sense of mutual regard for each other, of mutual responsibility. The idea that everybody has a stake in the country, that we're all in it together and everybody's got a shot at opportunity.

Americans know this. We know that government can't solve all our problems - and we don't want it to.

But we also know that there are some things we can't do on our own. We know that there are some things we do better together.

We know that we've been called in churches and mosques, synagogues and Sunday schools to love our neighbors as ourselves; to be our brother's keeper; to be our sister's keeper. That we have individual responsibility, but we also have collective responsibility to each other.

That's what America is. That's what those workers in Memphis fought for. And that's what we fight for today.

Some of what we need to do is clear. When you have a Republican Congress that says "no" to organizing rights, "no" to overtime pay, "no" to a higher minimum wage, "no" to Social Security, and "no" to Medicaid, it's time to say "no" to that Congress and put Democrats in charge come November.

But if we really want to lead - if we really hope to convince the country that our vision of government is better than theirs - we're gonna need more than just "no." We're gonna need to tell the country what our plan is for the 21st century worker - what we'll do to give every American the chance to get ahead and raise their family.

I won't stand up here and say that coming up with this strategy will be easy, or pretend to know all the answers.

But there's a few places we can start.

We can start by fixing our schools to make sure every child in America has the education and the skills they need to compete. We can start by making sure that college is affordable for every American who wants to go. And by giving unions a real role in creating a real system of lifelong learning so that workers who lose a job really can retrain for other high-wage jobs.

In this new economy, we can start giving our workers a chance by making sure that no matter where you work or how many times you switch jobs, you will have health care and a pension you can take with you always.

We'll never rise together if we allow medical bills to swallow family budgets or let people retire penniless after a lifetime of hard work, and so we can start by demanding that when it comes to commitments made to working men and women on health care and pensions, a promise made is a promise kept.

And in a world where two-income households are trying to juggle work and family, we can start giving workers a chance with policies that give families a chance. When a parent takes parental leave, we shouldn't act like caring for a newborn baby is a three-month break - we should let them keep their salary. When parents are working and their children need care, we should make sure that care is affordable, and that our kids can go to school earlier and longer so they have a safe place to learn while their parents are at work. And when a mom or a dad has to leave work to care for a sick child, we should make sure it doesn't result in a pink slip.

Our vision of America is not one where a big government runs our lives; it's one that gives every American the opportunity to make the most of their lives. It's not one that tells us we're on our own, it's one that realizes that we rise or fall together as one people.

And yet, we also know that, in the end, neither policy nor politics can replace heart and courage in the struggle you now face. Because in the brief history of the American experiment, it has been the ability of ordinary Americans to act on both that has allowed our nation to achieve extraordinary things.

Nearly forty years ago, the strike in Memphis came to an end.

But today, the march goes on.

Every year, on April 4th, the sanitation workers of Local 1733 gather again to march the route that led them to justice so long ago. Sometimes they walk the whole way, other years a bus comes to carry them the last few miles.

They march to remember, but they also march because they know our journey isn't complete - they know we have fights left to win; that we have dreams still unfulfilled.

A few years back, one of these workers, a man named Malcolm Pryor, told a reporter, "You have to remind people: We are not free yet. As long as I march, Dr. King's soul is still rejoicing that people are still trying."

And so today I ask you to keep marching.

As long as there are those who are jobless, I ask you to keep marching for jobs.

As long as there are those who struggle to raise a family on low wages and few benefits, I ask you to keep marching for opportunity.

As long as there are those who can't organize or unionize or bargain for a better life, I ask you to keep marching for solidarity.

And as long as there are those who try to privatize our government and decimate our social programs and peddle a philosophy of trickle-down and on-your-own, I ask you to keep marching for a vision of America where we rise or fall as one nation under God.

My friends, it's time again to march for freedom. Time again to march for hope. Time again to march towards the tomorrow that so many have reached for so many times in our past. I know we can get there, and I can't wait to try. Thank you, and good luck.


by rapallos on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:55:26 PM EST

Edwards Vs. Obama (3.00 / 1)

And now you trust Edwards, WHY?  Then after this BS from Edwards, please read the Obama thoughts before the war.  Hurry up and cash your Edwards check.  We don't need another flip flopper.

And don't give me he had fake intelligence.  Everyone knew Bush was lying. You know it, but you are too brainwashed by Edwards to admit it.

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. President, I am here to speak in support of the resolution before us, which I cosponsored. I believe we must vote for this resolution not because we want war, but because the national security of our country requires action. The prospect of using force to protect our security is the most difficult decision a Nation must ever make.

We all agree that this is not an easy decision. It carries many risks. If force proves necessary, it will also carry costs, certainly in resources, and perhaps in lives. After careful consideration, I believe that the risks of inaction are far greater than the risks of action.

Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal.

Edwards in his own words 9/12/2002

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. President, as a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I firmly believe that the issue of Iraq is not about politics. It's about national security. We know that for at least 20 years, Saddam Hussein has aggressively and obsessively sought weapons of mass destruction through every means available. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons today. He has used them in the past, and he is doing everything he can to build more. Each day he inches closer to his longtime goal of nuclear capability--a capability that could be less than a year away.
I believe that Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime represents a clear threat to the United States, to our allies, to our interests around the world, and to the values of freedom and democracy we hold dear.

Saddam has proven his willingness to act irrationally and brutally against his neighbors and against his own people. Iraqi's destructive capacity has the potential to throw the entire Middle East into chaos, and poses a mortal threat to our vital ally, Israel.

What's more, the terrorist threat against America is all too clear. Thousands of terrorist operatives around the world would pay anything to get their hands on Saddam's arsenal, and there is every possibility that he could turn his weapons over to these terrorists. No one can doubt that if the terrorists of September 11 had had weapons of mass destruction, they would have used them. On September 12, 2002, we can hardly ignore the terrorist threat, and the serious danger that Saddam would allow his arsenal to be used in aid of terror.

From Obama

What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics. Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the middle east, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the President today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings. You want a fight, President Bush?

Let's fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe. You want a fight, President Bush?

Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil. Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not -- we will not -- travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.


by rapallos on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:00:44 PM EST

Re: Edwards Vs. Obama (3.00 / 1)

Good comment, but if I were you, I would edit more judiciously.


by Winston Smith on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no proof that is Obama had (none / 0)

been in the Senate that day, that he woundn't have voted at the last minute for the war.

If you want to win 2008 you should take John Edwards more seriously, rather than your distorted view.

from April 9
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Politica l%20Tracking/Presidential%20Match-Ups/Ap ril%202007/Edwardsvs.ThompsonGiuliani200 70409.htm


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no proof that is Obama had (none / 0)

Yeah, well there is proof that Edwards would vote for the war.  And did.  

I would take Edwards more seriously if he was actually able to keep his Senate seat after one unspectatular, war-endorsing term, and was part of the current political process, like Obama.

Ah, you make an electability argument.  At this point, I wouldn't take Edwards more seriously if Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Brigham Young, Gandhi, Gene Roddenberry and Buddha all descended from their respective heavens and publicly endorsed Edwards at a mini-golf photo-op.


by Winston Smith on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Call You On Another Lie (none / 0)

So Obama doesn't fight.  Doesn't ask Americans to fight back.  Obama will kindly explain why you are lying.

My friends, we meet here today at a time where we find ourselves at a crossroads in America's history.

It's a time where you can go to any town hall or street corner or coffee shop and hear people express the same anxiety about the future; hear them convey the same uncertainty about the direction we're headed as a country. Whether it's the war or Katrina or their health care or their jobs, you hear people say that we've finally arrived at a moment where something must change.

These are Americans who still believe in an America where anything's possible - they just don't think their leaders do. These are Americans who still dream big dreams -they just sense their leaders have forgotten how.

I remember when I first ran for the state Senate - my very first race. A seat had opened up, and some friends asked me if I'd be interested in running. Well, I thought about it, and then I did what every wise man does when faced with a difficult decision: I prayed, and I asked my wife.

And after consulting with these higher powers, I threw my hat in the ring and I did what every person on a campaign does - I talked to anyone who'd listen.

I went to bake sales and barber shops and if there were two guys standing on the corner I'd pull up and hand them literature. And everywhere I went I'd get two questions:

First, they'd ask, "Where'd you get that funny name, Barack Obama?" Because people just couldn't pronounce it. They'd call me "Alabama," or they'd call me "Yo Mama." And I'd have to explain that I got the name from my father, who was from Kenya.

And the second thing people would ask me was, "You seem like a nice young man.

You teach law school, you're a civil rights attorney, you organize voter registration, you're a family man - why would you wanna go into something dirty and nasty like politics?"

And I understood the question because it revealed the cynicism people feel about public life today. That even though we may get involved out of civic obligation every few years, we don't always have confidence that government can make a difference in our lives.

So I understand the cynicism. But whenever I get in that mood, I think about something that happened to me on the eve of my election to the United States Senate.

We had held a large rally the night before in the Southside of Chicago, which is where I live. And in the midst of this rally, someone comes up to me and says that there's a woman who'd like to come meet you, and she's traveled a long way and she wants to take a picture and shake your hand.

And so I said fine, and I met her, and we talked.

And all of this would have been unremarkable except for the fact that this woman, Marguerite Lewis, was born in 1899 and was 105 years old.

And ever since I met this frail, one-hundred-and-five-year-old African-American woman who had found the strength to leave her house and come to a rally because she believed that her voice mattered, I've thought about all she's seen in her life.

I've thought about the fact that when she was born, there weren't cars on the road, and no airplanes in the sky. That she was born under the cloud of Jim Crow, free in theory but still enslaved in so many ways. That she was born at a time for black folks when lynchings were not uncommon, but voting was.

I've thought about how she lived to see a world war and a Great Depression and a second world war, and how she saw her brothers and uncles and nephews and cousins coming home from those wars and still have to sit at the back of a bus.

And I thought about how she saw women finally win the right to vote. And how she watched FDR lift this nation out of fear and send millions to college on the GI Bill and lift millions out of poverty with Social Security. How she saw unions rise up and a middle-class prosper, and watched immigrants leave distant shores in search of an idea known as America.

She believed in this idea with all her heart and she saw this progress around her and she had faith that someday it would be her turn. And when she finally she saw hope breaking through the horizon in the Civil Rights Movement, she thought, "Maybe it's my turn."

And in that movement, she saw women who were willing to walk instead of ride the bus after a day of doing somebody else's laundry and looking after somebody else's children because they walked for freedom. And she saw young people of every race and every creed take a bus down to Mississippi and Alabama to register voters because they believed. She saw four little girls die in a Sunday school and catalyze a nation.

And at last - at last - she saw the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

And she saw people lining up to vote for the first time - and she got in that line - and she never forgot it. She kept on voting in each and every election because she believed. She believed that over a span of three centuries, she had seen enough to know that there is no challenge too great, no injustice too crippling, no destiny too far out of reach for America.

She believed that we don't have to settle for equality for some or opportunity for the lucky or freedom for the few.

And she knew that during those moments in history where it looked like we might give up hope or settle for less, there have always been Americans who refused. Who said we're going to keep on dreaming, and we're going to keep on building, and we're going to keep on marching, and we're going to keep on working because that's who we are. Because we've always fought to bring all of our people under the blanket of the American Dream.

And I think that we face one of those moments today.

In a century just six years old, our faith has been shaken by war and terror, disaster and despair, threats to the middle-class dream, and scandal and corruption in our government.

The sweeping changes brought by revolutions in technology have torn down walls between business and government and people and places all over the globe. And with this new world comes new risks and new dangers.

No longer can we assume that a high-school education is enough to compete for a job that could easily go to a college-educated student in Bangalore or Beijing. No more can we count on employers to provide health care and pensions and job training when their bottom-lines know no borders. Never again can we expect the oceans that surround America to keep us safe from attacks on our own soil.

The world has changed. And as a result, we've seen families work harder for less and our jobs go overseas. We've seen the cost of health care and child care and gasoline skyrocket. We've seen our children leave for Iraq and terrorists threaten to finish the job they started on 9/11.

But while the world has changed around us, too often our government has stood still. Our faith has been shaken, but the people running Washington aren't willing to make us believe again.

It's the timidity - the smallness - of our politics that's holding us back right now. The idea that some problems are just too big to handle, and if you just ignore them, sooner or later, they'll go away.

That if you give a speech where you rattle off statistics about the stock market being up and orders for durable goods being on the rise, no one will notice the single mom whose two jobs won't pay the bills or the student who can't afford his college dreams.

That if you say the words "plan for victory" and point to the number of schools painted and roads paved and cell phones used in Iraq, no one will notice the nearly 2,500 flag-draped coffins that have arrived at Dover Air Force base.

Well it's time we finally said we notice, and we care, and we're not gonna settle anymore.

You know, you probably never thought you'd hear this at a Take Back America conference, but Newt Gingrich made a great point a few weeks ago. He was talking about what an awful job his own party has done governing this country, and he said that with all the mistakes and misjudgments the Republicans have made over the last six years, the slogan for the Democrats should come down to just two words:

Had enough?

I don't know about you, but I think old Newt is onto something here. Because I think we've all had enough. Enough of the broken promises. Enough of the failed leadership. Enough of the can't-do, won't-do, won't-even-try style of governance.

Four years after 9/11, I've had enough of being told that we can find the money to give Paris Hilton more tax cuts, but we can't find enough to protect our ports or our railroads or our chemical plants or our borders.

I've had enough of the closed-door deals that give billions to the HMOs when we're told that we can't do a thing for the 45 million uninsured or the millions more who can't pay their medical bills.

I've had enough of being told that we can't afford body armor for our troops and health care for our veterans and benefits for the wounded heroes who've risked their lives for this country. I've had enough of that.

I've had enough of giving billions away to the oil companies when we're told that we can't invest in the renewable energy that will create jobs and lower gas prices and finally free us from our dependence on the oil wells of Saudi Arabia.

I've had enough of our kids going to schools where the rats outnumber the computers. I've had enough of Katrina survivors living out of their cars and begging FEMA for trailers. And I've had enough of being told that all we can do about this is sit and wait and hope that the good fortune of a few trickles on down to everyone else in this country.

You know, we all remember that George Bush said in 2000 campaign that he was against nation-building. We just didn't know he was talking about this one.

Now, let me say this - I don't think that George Bush is a bad man. I think he loves his country. I don't think this administration is full of stupid people - I think there are a lot of smart folks in there. The problem isn't that their philosophy isn't working the way it's supposed to - it's that it is. It's that it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

The reason they don't believe government has a role in solving national problems is because they think government is the problem. That we're better off if we dismantle it - if we divvy it up into individual tax breaks, hand 'em out, and encourage everyone to go buy your own health care, your own retirement security, your own child care, their own schools, your own private security force, your own roads, their own levees...

It's called the Ownership Society in Washington. But in our past there has been another term for it - Social Darwinism - every man or women for him or herself.

It allows us to say to those whose health care or tuition may rise faster than they can afford - life isn't fair. It allows us to say to the child who didn't have the foresight to choose the right parents or be born in the right suburb - pick yourself up by your bootstraps. It lets us say to the guy who worked twenty or thirty years in the factory and then watched his plant move out to Mexico or China - we're sorry, but you're on your own.

It's a bracing idea. It's a tempting idea. And it's the easiest thing in the world.

But there's just one problem. It doesn't work. It ignores our history. Yes, our greatness as a nation has depended on individual initiative, on a belief in the free market. But it has also depended on our sense of mutual regard for each other, of mutual responsibility. The idea that everybody has a stake in the country, that we're all in it together and everybody's got a shot at opportunity.

Americans know this. We know that government can't solve all our problems - and we don't want it to.

But we also know that there are some things we can't do on our own. We know that there are some things we do better together.

We know that we've been called in churches and mosques, synagogues and Sunday schools to love our neighbors as ourselves; to be our brother's keeper; to be our sister's keeper. That we have individual responsibility, but we also have collective responsibility to each other.

That's what America is.

And so I am eager to have this argument not just with the President, but the entire Republican Party over what this country is about.

Because I think that this is our moment to lead.

The time for our party's identity crisis is over. Don't let anyone tell you we don't know what we stand for and don't doubt it yourselves. We know who we are. And in the end, we know that it isn't enough to just say that you've had enough.

So let it be said that we are the party of opportunity. That in a global economy that's more connected and more competitive - we are the party that will guarantee every American an affordable, world-class, top-notch, life-long education - from early childhood to high school, from college to on-the-job training.

Let it be said that we are the party of affordable, accessible health care for all Americans. The party that won't make Americans choose between a health care plan that bankrupts the government and one that bankrupts families. The party that won't just throw a few tax breaks at families who can't afford their insurance, but modernizes our health care system and gives every family a chance to buy insurance at a price they can afford.

Let it be said that we are the party of an energy independent America. The party that's not bought and paid for by the oil companies. The party that will harness homegrown, alternative fuels and spur the production of fuel-efficient, hybrid cars to break our dependence on the world's most dangerous regimes.

Let it be said that we will conduct a smart foreign policy that battles the forces of terrorism and fundamentalism wherever they may exist by matching the might of our military with the power of our diplomacy and the strength of our alliances. And when we do go to war, let us always be honest with the American people about why we are there and how we will win.

And let it be said that we are the party of open, honest government that doesn't peddle the agenda of whichever lobbyist or special interest can write the biggest check. The party who believes that in this democracy, influence and access should begin and end with the power of the ballot.

If we do all this, if we can be trusted to lead, this will not be a Democratic Agenda, it will be an American agenda. Because in the end, we may be proud Democrats, but we are prouder Americans. We're tired of being divided, tired of running into ideological walls and partisan roadblocks, tired of appeals to our worst instincts and greatest fears.

Americans everywhere are desperate for leadership. They are longing for direction. And they want to believe again.
A while ago, I was reading through Jonathan Kozol's new book, Shame of a Nation, which tells of his travels to underprivileged schools across America.

At one point, Kozol tells about his trip to Fremont High School in Los Angeles, where he met a girl who tells him that she'd taken hairdressing twice, because there were actually two different levels offered by the high school. The first was in hairstyling; the other in braiding.

Another girl, Mireya, listened as her friend told this story. And she began to cry. When asked what was wrong, she said, "I don't want to take hairdressing. I did not need sewing either. I knew how to sew. My mother is a seamstress in a factory. I'm trying to go to college. I don't need to sew to go to college. My mother sews. I hoped for something else."

I hoped for something else.

I've often thought about Mireya and her simple dream and all those before her who've shared that dream too.

And I've wondered - if she is lucky enough to live as long as 105-year-old Marguerite Lewis, if she someday has the chance to look back across the twenty-first century, what will she see? Will she see a country that is freer and kinder, more tolerant and more just than the one she grew up in? Will she see greater opportunities for every citizen of this country? Will all her childhood hopes be fulfilled?

We are here tonight because we believe that in this country, we have it within our power to say "yes" to those questions - to forge our own destiny - to begin the world anew.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is our time.

Our time to make a mark on history.

Our time to write a new chapter in the American story.

Our time to leave our children a country that is freer and kinder, more prosperous and more just than the place we grew up.

And then someday, someday, if our kids get the chance to stand where we are and look back at the beginning of the 21st century, they can say that this was the time when America renewed its purpose.

They can say that this was the time when America found its way.

They can say that this was the time when America learned to dream again.

Thank you.


by rapallos on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:05:12 PM EST

Stop the troll rating (3.00 / 0)

I am vaguely worried that MyDD is subtly moving into the Edwards camp.  I am unethusiastic about all the top-tier candidates at this point, but if my choice comes down to Obama or Edwards, then for me it's a no-brainer choice for Obama.  

I dont think that the front-pagers are necessarily overly biased at this point.  They are analysts, and I think its fair to critically report on the candidates.  However, a fair observation on the part of a frontpager invariable leads to an orgy of Edwards love and condemnation of all that is not Edwards on the part of the community, which appears to give a huge MyDD bias to a little tilt.  The front-pagers have not provided as many opportunities to the Obama crowd to trash Edwards.  

Well, I missed the Dean-Clark wars back in 2003, so I guess now I get to look forward to another year long blogflict.  

There has been quite a bit of abuse of the 0 rating.  Lets all remember that trusted users can hide comments, but should use that ability is cases of spam, and "offensive comments that are personal attacks."


by Winston Smith on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:33:30 PM EST


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