President Pelosi?

No, not really.  But what Josh Marshall is saying is largely correct.

Pelosi's trip is an embarrassment for the president because it shows an American actually involving herself in realities on the world stage rather than stuck in denial and fantasy. That may sound a bit starry-eyed. But think about it and I'll think you'll see that that's a lot of what this is about.

Pelosi is acting as a real Secretary of State or President would in foreign affairs.  She is negotiating and representing an America that offers itself as a trusted partner for peace and collective security.

Much of what America did in international affairs prior to the Bush Presidency was to act as sort of buoy, or a neutral third party in negotiations, a bulwark that other nations could broadly trust.  America didn't always keep its word, and it wasn't always a perfectly done role, but there really was no alternative.  And I think what the Iraq war has shown is that the alternative really is total chaos, and that means that America can reclaim a leading role in global affairs if we begin to rebuild our credibility.  Because of Iran's recent bad behavior, nations around the world want to see us reclaim that role, though with more checks on our range of action.

Bush, aside from the ability to start new wars, is largely irrelevant to that goal.  Most Presidents find their influence waning in the final two years, but with Bush, it seems like that decline will be larger than usual.  Bush lies almost constantly, except when he doesn't know what he's talking about and says something nonsensical.  Domestically and internationally, that means it's useful to try to ignore him as much as possible and do business with the people that will be in charge when he's gone.  Pelosi, in going to Syria, and in telling Bush to calm down, is looking much more like a President than Bush is.  Bush is even having his role as commander-in-chief challenged, by both his own ineptitude and the public's willingness to strip him of power.  By default, that power is slowly bleeding over to Pelosi, Reid, and whichever member of Congress is leading that day and filling the massive void Bush has left.  This is not an ideal scenario, but it's the one that Bush set himself up for when he refused to acknowledge the results of the 2006 elections and what that meant for his method of governance.

He may hold the constitutional office, but he is less and less the President every day.  He can still do a lot of damage, but we are increasingly going to see leaders like Pelosi in positions of authority.  Power abhors a vacuum, which is why Pelosi looks like a President today.



Display:


Re: President Pelosi? (3.00 / 2)

I think Matt's on the right track here.  Bush is a renegade president who is not functioning in any way to represent the American people.  As a result, Pelosi is trying to provide the legitimate kind of democratic government that Bush is refusing to engage in.  I've argued in my own diary that Pelosi  also is acting as a kind of "shadow president" in relation to the Iraq funding debate.  


by Ric Caric on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:32:42 PM EST

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

What will be interesting is when the Republican "realists" make this connection and toss Bush aside.


by surfk9 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:43:32 PM EST

If Only They Actually Existed! (3.00 / 2)

They like to believe they are realists.  But if they really were realists, they would have never let things fall apart like they have.  (You can't be an international realist and a domestic surrealist.  It's like a forbidden quantum state.)

It's rather like the idea of Republican grownups--a quaint notion that time and trial have revealed to be an oxymoron.


by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 02:45:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (3.00 / 3)

I agree.  In fact, I would prefer her in the White House than any of the announced candidates for the office.


by Stuart Shaffer on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:47:07 PM EST

Re: President Pelosi? (3.00 / 2)

It not only embarasses Bush and his failures but, also Condi.  and notice how much better received she is?  Wait till she hits Saudi Arabia


by vwcat on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:49:43 PM EST

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

Well between the two, plus Cheney, whom would you rather meet with?  Its like meeting with the person who will kick you ass instead of the two that will kill you.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've never been a big Pelosi fan (3.00 / 1)

but I have to say she's been doing a great job since January.

And obviously, this is humiliating for Condi.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:53:37 PM EST

Re: President Pelosi? (3.00 / 2)

Nancy Pelosi is gaining strength by the day. She seems to be very smart, tough and an effective organizer. I am impressed. Her trip to the Middle East was shrewd because it reminds the world that the US used to practice diplomacy. Of course that is why the Noise Machine if fully amped up.
by anothergreenbus on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:06:25 PM EST

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

Bush still has influence?  I thought he was a lame duck the moment this session of COngress was sworn in.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:36:01 PM EST

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

Bush is just a walking veto.  Rather, a stumbling veto.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (3.00 / 3)

"Much of what America did in international affairs prior to the Bush Presidency was to act as sort of buoy, or a neutral third party in negotiations, a bulwark that other nations could broadly trust."

First post.  Love the tight focus on political mechanics and absence of fluff on this site.  Prompted to engage however by the above claim.  With all due respect, the foregoing is simply not true.  The US has been an on balance massively destabilizing international force for nearly the entire past century, if not before.  Consider the CIA alone and its innumerable interventions around the world, US arms sales, military interventions.  Central America in the 1980s.  2-3 million dead on the Indochina penninsula.  Suharto, East Timor, the Saudi fascists, and on and on.

Liberal Democrats often want to believe this "stabilizing global force" narrative, but it is just that, a narrative and not an objective historical description.  In fact the opposite is far closer to the truth.  Bush is easily the worst of the lot but not the first and not off the charts unusual relative to other Presidents.  Sad, but true.

"Neutral third party in negotiations"?  Um, no.  That is myth not history.

"America didn't always keep its word, and it wasn't always a perfectly done role, but there really was no alternative."

Perhaps not behaving like an empire?  Not ratlining Nazis to Latin America?  Mr. Stoller is attempting to sound "credible" to the politicos who refuse to disabuse themselves of the "shining city on the hill" notion or (less plausibly) is ignorant or our nation's actual history around the world.

I know the standard frame is more comforting but we do - and should - pride ourselves on appreciating reality.  Now I do not mean to offer some hyperbolic anti-America rant; other nations have a bad record as well, and were another to enjoy the dominance the US enjoyed after rest of the world was shattered following WWII, they would likely have behaved the same way.  And the US has played a positive role in many respects, but I believe net negative is far closer to the truth and this "neutral" arbiter stuff is, frankly, silly.

All that said, the point of the post stands: negotiation not confrontation is the way forward and Pelosi is to be applauded for engaging Syria in an effort to work toward solutions to the various problems we have created and that we face in the Middle East.  We need problem solvers not fire starters.

Transforming the United States into a postive global force requires we apprehend the actual role of the US state in world affairs, today, which I believe Mr. Stoller accurately recognizes, but also historically, so that we do not recycle the tropes and assumptions that have invariably justified and shaped unjust and unwise US policy in the past.  Only then we can devise a sensible diplomatic and defense policy, much as the former Rep. Dellums proposed before Clintonistas insisted on not realizing the peace dividend and squandered the very real opportunity from 1991-1993 to make a truly New World Order, not just one in which, as Bush Sr put it "what we say goes".

"Soft on defense" is an inevitable charge no matter what we do, but if we wish to remake our role in the world, actually remake our role and not merely shift our rhetoric, in order to actually increase the chances of global peace and security, we must confront, in a clear-eyed way, the roots of American foreign policy.

I wish Bush was irrelevant.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:15:30 AM EST

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

My first reaction was to post a comment much like yours, but you beat me to it and said it with more thought than I would have (so thanks!)

But if I can add something - as a newcomer to the lefty blogosphere I am sometimes a little concerned with the (usually) narrow foreign policy perspective. Sure, Iraq and Afghanistan are topics of constant discussion, but the US role in world affairs goes far, far beyond those entanglements, and can never be overestimated.

Yes, we need to pressure progressive Democrats on a wide range of domestic issues, but we cannot forget that they will make our foreign policy, too. And, for better or worse, matters of international relations are rarely as clear cut as the liberal vs. conservative framework that defines American politics.

I have very little faith that Obama or Edwards or HRC (or Pelosi for that matter) would alter the US role in world affairs in a manner that I could wholeheartedly support. Like all of us, I will be glad to see the neocons banned from the upper echelons of power - but I do not cherish the idea of trading them in for another Bill Clinton. And, as far as foreign policy is concerned, I believe that is excatly what we are going to get, regardless of who wins in '08.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 01:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

The US has been an on balance massively destabilizing international force for nearly the entire past century, if not before.  Consider the CIA alone and its innumerable interventions around the world, US arms sales, military interventions.  Central America in the 1980s.  2-3 million dead on the Indochina penninsula.  Suharto, East Timor, the Saudi fascists, and on and on.

Liberal Democrats often want to believe this "stabilizing global force" narrative, but it is just that, a narrative and not an objective historical description.  In fact the opposite is far closer to the truth.  Bush is easily the worst of the lot but not the first and not off the charts unusual relative to other Presidents.  Sad, but true.

It's somewhere in between American exceptionalism and America is awful-ism.  There's a reason Clinton was loved in South America and Bush is despised. America flits between poles.


by Matt Stoller on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 01:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

I don't think there is much evidence of Latin America's love for Clinton.  Most of the neoliberal governments he ushered in were voted out and replaced by leftest like Kirchner of Argentina, Lula of Brazil, Morales of Bolivia and Chavez in Venezuela.  The truth is most of the rebellion we are seeing in Latin America began under neoliberal regimes supported by Clinton.  Bush just experience blast wave of this effect.   Bush is responsible for the bad feeling Arabs have for us, but his policies are not distinguished from Clinton's with regard to Latin America, and Clinton's were in no way distinguished from previous republicans in there policies there.


Dameocrat Blog also Stray Roots Messageboard
by Dameocrat on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 08:10:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

That has, to my mind, much more to do with the political culture of the times than with their actual actions.

[Note: the discussion below concerns South America only, as I'm not terribly confident with my knowledge of Central America.]

Latin America in the early 1990s was emerging from dictatorship, but this was generally a peaceful process, so the murderous old bastards in the general staffs were going off into a cosy retirement and there was a risk that any large swing to the left might bring them back to 'disappear' another few thousands leftists, journalists and trade unionists.

Combine that with a weak Soviet Union and an increasingly extreme and unsupported far left and you naturally get either extreme right military puppets or liberals of the economic-only variety.

But as time went on, the influence of the old generals faded as they died, emigrated, retreated entirely from politics or found their past misdeeds catching up with them. Whilst nobody got justice for Pinochet's atrocities, it did significant damage to his power.

Meanwhile, a decade of following World Bank dictates, coupled with an increasingly large and urbanised population and a few economic downturns opened the way for a populist leftist movement across the continent.

The extent of that has varied from place to place and time to time. Bachelet in Chile and Lula in Brazil have been more moderate, Morales in Bolivia and Chavez in Venezuela have been more aggressive (although it's worth remembering that Chavez was originally elected as a social democrat verging on a Blairite). Even in the areas where they were defeated, electoral chicanery was often required to accomplish this (exceptions can be made for Colombia, which has its own problems and tendencies towards conservatism going back to before Bolivar but particularly tied up to the murder of all FARC's aspiring political leaders when it tried to ditch violence back in the 1970s, and for Paraguay, which always seems to lag behind in such matters.)

Whereas the politicians of the 1990s were in love with America and American-style capitalism, these new leaders are much less enthusiastic, for reasons of history, politics and economics. Bush certainly antagonised them, which helps to improve Clinton's reputation, but such a clash would have happened to some degree anyway.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 11:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

I think you are overlooking the all-important economic componenet of US-Latin American relations. The 1990's saw the rapid expansion of trade and economic 'reforms' throughout Latin America, coupled with the rapid worsening of the wealth gap (which was already among the worst in the world before the 1990's).

This is why many Latin American peoples and governments dislike the US and our foriegn/economic polcies (well, that and a nearly endless string of interventions). And that is the reason for the dramatic leftward shift in Latin American poltics.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 01:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It depends a lot on the time period (none / 0)

If we look at America's role in the world, the further back we go, the worse we look.

Take, for instance, the period between the world wars when the Marines were tracking down Sandino so he wouldn't cause trouble for the United Fruit Co.  Or for most of the Cold War, when we were propping up tinhorn dictators everywhere, as long as they were anti-communist.

But we did start changing, first with Carter's raising the issue of human rights, then with the Reaganistas' gradual weaning away from the tinpots - first, realizing ca. 1983 that D'Aubisson was every bit the thug that the lefties had said he was, then reluctantly being chivvied into nudging Marcos out the door, and so forth.  Yeah, the Reagan record was mostly bad, but it went from awful in 1982 to passable in 1988.  And this allowed Clinton, freed of the Cold War, to enable America to be a (mostly) positive force in the world.

My point is that oldies like me remember a lot of the bad days, but someone who is in their mid to late 30s or younger would remember a much more positive U.S. track record pre-Chimp.


by RT on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 03:30:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Both/And (none / 0)

What you say about America's role in the world is certainly true--and important, because it is so reflexively denied in the mainstream discourse.  (As a shorthand for my politics--my whole life, I never lived in Dellums' district, but I always felt he was my representative in Congress.)

Nonetheless, what Matt said is also true.  

Howso?  Simple.

We have destabilized numerous individual regimes to maintain our own prefered order, which we have simiultaneously worked to stabilize and buffer.  While it is a far from perfect order, and one that I think needs to be fundamentally criticized, it is nonetheless one that is far superior to the "creative destruction" without the creative part that is the BushCo alternative.

The one good thing about BushCo is that their fixation on the Middle East has opened up breathing space for an unprecedented degree of Latin American autonomy.  Unchallenged US hegemony is simply not good for the world, even in its most historically benign form.  So there is a chance that a restabilized American foreign policy will, of necessity, be more beneficial, and less pernicious.  But it will still be up to us, as American citizens, to fight like hell to make it into something we can actually be proud of.

And you thought ending slavery was hard!


by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 03:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both/And (none / 0)

Your statement re. Latin America is particularly interesting given Matt's statement re. the same. He says there's a reason Clinton's loved in South America, and Bush is reviled; you say the one good thing about Bush is that he opened breathing space in Latin American autonomy.


by BingoL on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 08:05:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah--He Was Distracted From Overthrowing Chavez (none / 0)

and the rest of the left-leaning leaders who have emerged.

It's not like Bush planned it.

Inadvertant benign neglect.

The inverse of New Orleans and Katrina.


by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 09:49:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Distracted From Overthrowing Chavez (none / 0)

The Bush administration tried to overthrow Chavez, but the initial efforts didn't work, and since then they been too distracted.


by joyful alternative on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 10:50:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Even The Initial Attempt Was Half-Assed (none / 0)

because they were already distracted.

They really were caught by surprise with how crudely authoritarian their guy turned out to be.  They thought they were dealing with slick operators, who didn't need a lot of hand-holding.  They were too distracted to do their due diligence.  And they were really cught off guard by the hostility of the rest of Latin America.  On every front, they did a heckuva job, Brownie.

Thank goodness.


by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

I would say to anyone looking for a change in outlook rather than tone from Pelosi, you will "probably" be sorely disappointed.  She has already joined the "Hugo Chavez is a thug!" hallelujah chorus which means she prioritizes oil interests over social justice, and is willing to actually lie for them.  Having said that she isn't stupid like Bush or most his people so that will be an improvement.

I hope I am wrong.  I hope she is just playing to the establishment until she gets power, but I know better than to get my hopes up.


Dameocrat Blog also Stray Roots Messageboard
by Dameocrat on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 08:01:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

More Sec of State Pelosi.  Condi Rice is just not trusted around the world.  Of course, that is mostly because Bush isn't trusted.  So, who dealt with Darfur and is going to N. Korea?  Not Condi, it is Gov. Bill Richardson.  Pelosi's trip to Syria is just another embarrassment to this embarrassing administration.  Bush and Co. are trying and trying to create their own reality but reality has pushed back hard and they have no idea what to do now.


by msstaley on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 01:30:30 AM EST

US in the World (none / 0)

I mostly agree with Trond (that the US has been more destabilizing than stabilizing), but I'd limit the really bad effects to the post-Kennedy era - Vietnam and forward, although the post WWII anti-communism binge laid the foundation for Vietnam and beyond.  

But LandStander goes way to far in mistrusting the Dems.  Bill Clinton was not a neo-imperialist, and respect for the US was probably at its highest around the world during his Presidency.  His biggest mistake was allowing his Secy of State to push the 'America is the essential force' theme.

I'm not an isolationist, but an internationalist of the kind that thinks friends and enemies alike need to be dealt with honestly, but firmly.  Grape leaves in our hands, with the martial arrows well in the background.  We don't need to be and shouldn't pursue becoming the New Rome.  We don't need 200 military bases with US forces around the world.  Intelligence should concentrate on intelligence and not undermining governments and playing dirty tricks.  Terrorism shoudl be undermined and attacked with surgical skill and lots of cooperation with others - not pretending that this is some war of civilizations.  Alliances count, but they shouldn't be the only diplomatic routes we pursue.  Trade and globalization needs to be more than just a zero sum game for huge international conglomerates. The health of the planet and its peoples should be a major pillar of our policies.

With the perspective sketched above, ANY of the major Dem. candidates (including Pelosi or Gore) would move us in the right direction, as they and progressives largely support these principles.    


"Pay any price, bear any burden"
by JimPortlandOR on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 02:35:23 AM EST

President Pelosi--My Thought Exactly (3.00 / 8)

I was too wiped out when I came home and read that, but I seriously considered writing a diary with that title--and no question mark.

What struck me, first of all, is how this reminds us much the world needs America, and thus, how much power America has just by doing the most understated things--the way a great and powerful actor can convey so much with only the slightest facial expression.  This is the "soft power" America has in such abundance that Bush is absolutely incapable of recognizing--like a deaf man and a Beethoven string quartet.  And Pelosi, of course, is the most adept wielder of soft power on the American scene today.

Second, I was struck by sheer impotence of Bush's lashing out at Pelosi.  Did he actually think it would do anything?  Even with the M$M echo chamber backing him up like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, he is just so transparently lame.  This is not someone like John DiIulio, Paul O'Neil, Anthony Zinni or Richard Clarke--all folks whose criticism BushCo has tried to crush by personalizing (or threatening to personalize, in DiIulio's case) things at a schoolyard level.

For all their admirable qualities, none of these figures had the instutional position that Pelosi has.  Although they towered over Bush morally and intellectually, they had no capacity to maintain sufficient visibility in the media to maintain their narrative as opposed to BushCos.

But, of course, Pelosi has precisely that.  What's more, she has the diplomatic smarts to know that less is more in this game. That quitely building up her acheivements, brick by brick will stand her in much better stead than reflecting something similar to BushCo's histrionics of power.  Much as I yearn for her to be much more assertive in direct opposition to Bush, I know that this simply cannot be the way of things, at least not at this time.  Her diginified, restrained, less-is-more approach has the effect of draining the energy that BushCo normally generates by dragging policy differences down into the gutter of schoolyard personal attacks.

Of course, Constitutionally she is not the President.  But psychically, spiritually, morally, she is quietly assuming that role--doing, in a low-key way, precisely what Newt Gingrich so loudly and narcissistically claimed to be doing back 1995, but so totally failed to do.  And, of course, there are multiple reasons for this, but first and foremost are the twin facts that (1) we really don't have a functioning President, and haven't had one since Clinton left office, and (2) Pelosi is a kind of tested congressional leader of the sort we probably haven't seen since Lyndon Johnson lead the Senate Democrats back from temporary minority status back in the 1950s.

I could always be wrong, naturally.  So much of politics depends on factors no one can control.  But I sense a very real potential that we are only seeing the beginning of this phenomena.  Reid's sudden strengthening of his will against Bush on the supplemental strikes me as quite significant in this regard.  We know from experience that Reid is quite capable of this sort of steely resolve--and we also know that he can simply take a walk when we least expect it.  What we may be seeing the beginnings of (knock on wood!) is a steadying of Reid's focus, grounded by Pelosi.

I think things are going to get very interesting very quickly in the next few months, and perhaps even one or two members of the M$M might actually start to notice not only that Nancy Pelosi doesn't spook when Karl Rove shouts "Boo!" but that Pelosi is the one who's driving BushCo nuts, because she has the power that they have so ignominously squandered.


by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 02:40:39 AM EST

I viewed her trip as comforting (none / 0)

because Rice and Bush can not be trusted to report the purpose or nature of discussions that may take place.  It is a check on whatever is being discussed privately with Bush's representatives.


by realtime on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 03:02:12 AM EST

After the End (3.00 / 1)

By doing this, Pelosi may also start to accustom the nation to her being in charge and doing stuff. This means that even after the election, even if it's HRC (who I have no doubt can firmly hold all things in her own hand) the president will have less power simply because we have become used to Pelosi wielding it and it will seem natural for her to do so.

This means a future president will have to actually work WITH the Speaker, not simply dictate.


by MNPundit on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 09:15:34 AM EST

Holy Constitution, Batman! (none / 0)

Separation of powers?  Who'da thunk it???


by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 09:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President Pelosi? (none / 0)

On the political front, how has this played out?  The right-wing blogs flogged it for all it was worth (Bush criticisms of Pelosi), even though republicans had been going to Syria.  

Was there an official pushback on this?  I saw some of the liberal blogosphere push back, but it seemed to get drowned out, on CNN.  More of that fake "Beltway wisdom".

I think every month or so, there will be these type of ludicrous flare-ups of idiocy, that will overwhelm the blogosphere's ability to effectively get the counter-message out there.  The benefit is to muddy the waters between Pelosi and Bush.

And yet, we are the only one's who, in a messaging context, "have Pelosi's back".  

I think there might have to be started, some "monthly Pelosi action item", to get some coordination messaging across liberal formats interested in the truth, that bombard the various network and paper opinion analysts, with the facts of a faux controversy Bush and Co. gin up.

I didn't see any action items for this particular smear, just making fun of the obvious idiocy of Bush's smear.  But that's not enough.


by jc on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:19:18 PM EST


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