A Three-Way Campaign Emerges

Post-Vilsack Iowa Polls
Candidate Mean SV, 4/1 (R) U of Iowa, 3/31 Zogby, 3/26 ARG, 3/22
Edwards 30.3 27 34 27 33
Clinton 26.8 19 29 25 34
Obama 19.5 20 19 23 16

Post-Elizabeth Edwards Announcement New Hampshire Polls
Candidate Mean Zogby, 4/3 CNN, 4/2
Clinton 28 29 27
Edwards 22 23 21
Obama 21.5 23 20

Gore-less national polls, 3/20-present (six poll mean)
Clinton: 36.7
Obama: 26.0
Edwards: 18.5
Other / Unsure: 18.8
(Note: two polls only included three candidates (CBS, Time); four polls included all announced candidates (Rasmussen, Zogby, Gallup, Democracy Corps). Source for polls here and here)

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a competitive primary campaign. With today's new that Obama equaled Clinton in terms of primary fundrasing and, more importantly, generated a truly remarkable 100,000+ donors to his campaign, the horserace tightens further. It now seems likely that Obama will at least equal, and possibly surpass, Clinton in terms of available cash for the primary season. We have close early sate polls, tightening national polls, and a frontrunner who does not have an advantage in terms of resources. It was not long ago that Clinton was the equal of Obama and Edwards combined. Now, no matter which metric you look at, that is clearly no longer the case.

Right now, my advice to all three campaigns would be the same: schedule two weeks of broadcast network television ads in both Iowa and New Hampshire, set to run at the beginning of May. I am not a huge believer in the value of such ads, and I would not recommend running any more ads until at least the fall, but with both early states clearly tight, shifting your numbers by five or ten points would be huge. Clinton could re-establish her lead in Iowa, and her solid lead in New Hampshire. Obama could forge a three-way tie in Iowa, and take the lead in New Hampshire. Edwards could build a big lead in Iowa, and--this would be a huge shocker that would fundamentally change the race--quite possibly the lead in New Hampshire. Any of those moves would change the national media narrative surrounding the campaign. While expensive, all three campaigns, especially Obama, clearly have a lot of money to spare. It is even the sort of buzz that could end up generating more in terms money that it costs.

Exciting times ahead. Already, we have massive rallies, over 200,000 donors, big momentum changes--the energy we will see over the next nine months will break all records.



Display:


Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (3.00 / 1)

When did Clinton have a lead in Iowa besides a couple of ARG polls?


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by clarkent on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:36:08 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

well, never really. However, she had pulled even in Zogby, led in the University of Iowa poll among only registered voters, and was getting close in Strategic Vision. All told, that did not leave many polls showing Edwards ahead anymore.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Iowa polls (3.00 / 1)

you used are registered Dems, right?

If you look at likely caucus voters, Edwards has a big lead, right?

In any case, close race: this is gonna be fun. Obama supporters are gonna get soooooo sick of me. If they aren't already.

I wish you all good luck. Let's keep it relatively clean.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Iowa polls (none / 0)

Interesting you are just singling Obama supporters out....

And we will only be sick of you if you act like an ass... in which case I have no qualms in calling you out :-P

It willbe a long fun season... at this point its anyones race...

I wonder if anyone will Drop out if Obama and Edwards exceed their 1Q numbers in Q2.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 05:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think she was ever ahead here (3.00 / 2)

If Clinton were in contention for the lead, my Democratic activist friends and I would be identifying more support for her among reliable caucus-goers. Most people are undecided and not leaning toward Clinton. Of the people who have decided, Edwards and Obama are dominating.

Some of those Iowa polls are showing a third of Democrats are "likely" to attend the caucuses, but the real turnout will be significantly lower than that. In 2004 we had relatively strong turnout for the caucuses, and it was about 120,000 Democrats in a state of 3 million people.

When I start finding real, live caucus-going Democrats who say they are for Hillary, I will start getting worried about her chances her. I still predict she will come in a distant third.


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by desmoinesdem on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think she was ever ahead here (none / 0)

Wait... so 120K democrats decided the nominee in 2004... Boy the caucus system is messed up.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

that's weird, 3 out of 4 iowa polls you have up there show him in the lead...


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

So Elizabeth Edwards announcement gave Clinton a bounce???????????????????


by del on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:15:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I was reading Sullivan's blog, he thinks Obama is the frontrunner right now, I agree when you at the polling and the fundraisng it appears Hillary's topped out, I think unless Obama falls apart, he's going to be hard to stop. One thing that goes unsaid alot is that if Obama really looks like the fronrunner what % of the african american vote in the dem primary will not support Obama when push comes to shove? 25% of dem primary voters are african-american.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:36:19 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (3.00 / 1)

Obama isn't as well positioned in the early states as one would expect from a "frontrunner" right now. I think he is in third in IA, NV, NH and SC. He has mondo money and energy, but that needs to transform into organizational prowess in the early states to win this thing.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I haven't seen a NV or SC poll in a while, but I thought both were
  1. Clinton
  2. Obama
  3. Edwards

"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:58:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (3.00 / 1)

I would be stunned if Edwards is in 3rd in SC now (taht is, the last two weeks). NV? Obama might be in second there.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Edwards may have received some bounce in SC since the last poll. I think he still has an uphill battle there.


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by robliberal on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

How come?  I would think he would have an easier time since he was born there and is from the south.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:04:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

He has been trailing in the polls there. The largest voting block in SC is the black vote and Clinton and Obama have all of it locked up except for single digits.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (3.00 / 1)

I think Obama is better off in NH than the polls of Democrats indicate. I know that state, and in the current dynamic, he'd be my clear frontrunner in the primary. But it's a long way away.

Right now, I'd put those three as nearly tied. Hillary has a slight advatage in most metrics, but seems stalled. Obama has huge financial resources and positive name ID, but isn't as strong in the early caucuses. Edwards lags behind those two in the money and national numbers, but has excellent early state strength.

I think one interesting thing will be to see if the AFL-CIO goes through with their plans on an early endorsement. I have to think that was meant as a "Hillary is inevitable" thing (I can't imagine they'd go with Edwards so early), but with Hillary clearly not inevitable, I think the AFL-CIO backs off.

Maybe they already have, and I didn't notice.


by BriVT on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I think Obama is in a whole lot better position than what is shown up there. Right now I think it is:

  1. Clinton (Name Recognition mostly)
  2. Obama (Surging to New Heights)
  3. Edwards (Mostly Elizabeth's Influence but it is waning because sympathy can take you so far)

It is a two person's race from now on....Clinton and Obama.


by mdiogu on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Except Obama isnt surging (none / 0)

at least not before the money announcement. His polls have remained steady for the most part in state and national polls I think, while Edwards has been rising.

Will that continue? We just don't know. I expect some sort of bump due to the huge money Obama got but we just don't know how it will translate. It probably means more for endorsements and building organization more than anything.


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Except Obama isnt surging (none / 0)

Go to pollster.com and look at the trend line for the Dem nomination. Obama is surging.


by upper left on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I would say he is tied for second in NH... That's a bit more accurate read of the current polling.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

2 points (3.00 / 1)

There aren't many blacks in Iowa or Nevada. (not sure about NH) But no doubt the black vote will be instrumental on super duper Tuesday.

The direction the HRC vote heads, as it begins to errode, will help determine front runner status and if this becomes a two-person or three-person race.


by aiko on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:13:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 points (none / 0)

Obama is not white or Black candidate, he is America's Candidate. That is why he will win.


by mdiogu on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:53:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 points (3.00 / 1)

Actually he is white AND black!!!


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 points (none / 0)

that's good


by aiko on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bowers... (none / 0)

why are we not seeing quality polls out of NV and SC?


BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics
by Robert P on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:39:43 PM EST

Re: Bowers... (3.00 / 2)

One reason may be is that people are not yet convinced the primary calendar is set. New Hampshire could still move before Nevada, and Florida (and then, Michigan) might hold primaries on the same day as South Carolina.

There are other factors too, but once the calendar is set, I imagine we will see more polls.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Calendar Set" (none / 0)

may not happen for a while yet.  I would not be shocked to see Iowa and NH move to December...I don't see any final decisions there for some time yet.


by rashomon on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Michigan, really? (3.00 / 3)

Great for Edwards-Bonior.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No frontrunner... (3.00 / 2)

With the slaying of the Clinton "inevitability" meme, it's official.  What was the most wide-open primary (on both sides) in modern American History is now wide-opener.

You know the really great thing about having three top-notch candidates all with a chance to win?  The eventual winner is going to have to earn it...with sharp policy, rhetoric, and nimble campaigning.

How great is that?  Whoever wins will have earned it!  It's about time...


by rashomon on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:42:51 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I think its healthy for all concerned. Now everyone is "even stevens" with the money, we can concentrate of their messages. As a Clinton supporter I think the competition is good. Let's here the  specifics of Obama's plans. I'm glad the Clinton Campaign did the right thing by congratulating the new front runner. I hope he will get the scrutiny commensurate with being the new king on the block. Let the Clinton campaign sit out of the spotlight for a while and concentrate on Iowa and New Hampshire. Especially the rural areas as Vilsack has wisely advised.


by superetendar on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:44:40 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Wow... you honestly think HRC won't still be in the spotlight?  Obama is not the front runner... there really is no front runner, just 3 probable candidates.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:10:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its still Hillary I think (none / 0)

her connections and establishment support I think have to give her an edge still.


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Any way to limit debates (none / 0)

to those polling above 5%?

That seems a reasonable cutoff.

And it is really annoying that we pick presidents based on 60-second commercials that are either "feel good" or attack ads.  Where is substantive understanding of the differences between the serious candidates supposed to emerge?


by catherineD on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:47:35 PM EST

Re: Any way to limit debates (3.00 / 1)

I'd rather not do that. I know eight candidates will make for a crowded stage, but let's not cut-off our own party that way.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Any way to limit debates (none / 0)

I mean, I would love to see a smaller debate, between, say, Clinton, Edwards, Obama and Richardson, but let's not force people out of the campaign that way.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Any way to limit debates (none / 0)

Most of the second tier is below 5% so that would leave only 3 or so in most state debates. I think the second tier deserves a chance to be heard.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I say make the tv ads, see how good you can make them, and then decide whether to run them and when.

Also, consider Edwards and Obama should consider radio ads featuring their mellifluous voices.  You can target better with radio, no?


by McFrederick on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:51:31 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (3.00 / 1)

Actually, I think radio targeting is pretty poor. you can narrow target with cable, which might be really useful in New Hampshire, but there is a big debate over its effectiveness.

But I also agree with your first statement--start cutting ads, and when you have a really good one, go with that. Don't hurry one out there that you feel isn't good, just to have one out there.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I worked in radio, briefly.  The dirty secret of radio is that ads are expensive relative to their effectiveness, when compared to TV or print.  And you can target more easily in other media, as the other response noted.


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

mellifluous?  good word!


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:12:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)


schedule two weeks of broadcast network television ads in both Iowa and New Hampshire

Actually, don't be surprised that with HRC and Obama  basically assuming an 12-14 month budget of $80-$100M, each could afford to go up on TV in both Iowa and NH now and not come down for the rest of the campaign.


by blueflorida on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:00:28 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I don't think she will start that early. She might go up in New Hampshire and Iowa just after Labor Day, and then never come down. She can then use the money she saved for national ads targeting February 5th states from January 1st forward.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dean went up on tv in Iowa around June 2003 (none / 0)

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my memory is that he went up on tv here way before Labor Day.


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by desmoinesdem on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean went up on tv in Iowa around June 2003 (none / 0)

Yes, but he didn't say up the whole time.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:16:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean went up on tv in Iowa around June 2003 (none / 0)

and the ads were shit, too.


by howieinseattle on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are all in an odd situation with respect to when to go on TV. Normally you go up early (like Romney) when you've got money but you're low in the polls to try to build some polling momentum. There's no polling incentive in IA or NH for Clinton, Obama, or Edwards to go up on TV now. So, I guess, each would only start advertising early as a defensive measure. So, unless one of opts for a pre-emptive round of negative ads or there's major movement by one of the second tier candidates (I could see Richardson or Dodd making an early move), then your scenario could definitely play out.


by blueflorida on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I think it's a bit shortsighted to try to stake out a position as the clear leader in May.  That leaves the rest of the field 8 months to take you out.  


by kilb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:01:53 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (3.00 / 2)

At least for Obama and Edwards, I'm not think about being the frontrunner so much, as showing a very, very close race in early states and a lot of mo'. It would also draw attention to how close those states are, take the focus off national polls. And that would help Edwards and Obama a lot.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:05:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I think it would be of the most benefit to Edwards to get up on the air in the early states on tv, cable and radio for a couple of weeks. He needs to keep on shaking things up so the media can't so easily ignore him in favor of the Hillary vs. Obama story they love so much.


by Quinton on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:45:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

gut feeling as of now Cris who do you think wins the nomination?

  I just don't think Hillary is going to win many new voters in the small states by personal visits, Edwards and Obama are much more likeable people, Hillary's big advantage is gone, unless somehow the gender issue (women voting for a women president because she's a women) is bigger than I realize, I think she's only going to go down over time in Iowa, new Hampshire ect.....I remember Jesse Jackson winning primarys with just black voters in some states, I know Hillary still polls ok with black voters but I agree with the theory that that's because most black voters assumed Obama couldn't win and that Hillary would be the nominee, Obama as co-frontrunner for a nomination is going to win atleast 70% of dem primary black voters, I would be on that.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:30:03 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (2.00 / 2)

At this point my gut feelings would be that Clinton still has the best shot at the nomination. Obama is still largely untested in how he will perform on the campaign trail and under pressure and has performed poorly in some recent events. Edwards is getting some movement in the polls since he has been in the news more recently and it remains to be seen if that will translately into solid support.

I would rank it this way (best shot at nomination).

1.  Clinton   (odds 50% to 80%)        

  1.  Edwards (odds 25% range)
  2.  Richardson  (odds 10% range)
  3.  Dodd   (odds 5% to 10% range)
  4.  Obama  (odds 5% to 10% range)
  5.  Biden    (odds less than 5% range)
  6.  Kucinich  (odds astronomical)
  7.  Gravel  (odds astronomical)


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by robliberal on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you crazy? (none / 0)

I don't disagree with the idea that we don't know how Obama will perform down the stretch.  But to put him in the same range as Dodd?  Are you serious?  The guy just raised 25 million dollars!  And "has performed poorly in some recent events"?  What about the events where he's broken attendance records?  One or two off nights don't kill what on the whole has been a tremendously successful campaign (unless you're Howard Dean and you're in Iowa).

Come on - even the most hardcore Clinton supporter has to concede that Obama's got a pretty good shot at winning it all.  Even if you don't want to acknowledge that he and Clinton are in all respects neck-and-neck, putting her odds at 80% and his at 10% just make you look delusional.


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you crazy? (1.00 / 1)

I think experience will become a bigger factor the closer we get to voting. Obama has far less experience at the national level than any of the other candidates and almost no experience in competitive campaigns (he lost to Congressman Bobby Rush in the only hotly contested race of his career). Some of the front page posts on MyDD and other sites in recent weeks have highlighted some of the problems he has been having.

Dean raised a tremendous amount of money and had a tremendous number of people signed up for his campaign in 2004 and he got nowhere and the race narrowed down to Kerry, Edwards, and Clark. When Dean was at his peak people were talking about him the same way they are about Obama right now. There was the same buzz, the same feel, and even many of the same netroots people behind him. I think a similar scenario is possible in 2008 which is why I think the odds are against him.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 05:06:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you crazy? (none / 0)

Actually, the 2004 senate primary was hotly contested until the very end when Hull imploded and Obama went on the air a few days before that implosion with some very effective commercials, including the Paul Simon one.  Still Obama managed to get over 50% in a very crowded field.  

For the record, Dean had more experience than Edwards did in 2004, yet Edwards still managed to finish second in Iowa and overall.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:27:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you crazy? (none / 0)

In 2004 both Gephardt and Dean imploded in Iowa which left 2 openings instead of just 1.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you crazy? (none / 0)

There's one big difference between Dean and Obama.  Both are candidates with grass/netroots support, who are running against an old guard/DLC candidate.  But in 2004, the DLC was running the party.  In 2008, Dean is running the party.

Last time around, the party panicked that Dean was too "out there" and rallied around a safe choice.  Do you really think that the Dean-led DNC, which made historic gains in 2006 by running outspoken candidates who stand for something, is going to make the same mistake?  And scuttle the outspoken candidate in favor of the play-it-safe DLC choice?

Besides that, Obama's got more charisma than Dean, is polling higher, has more financial support, and a higher number of supporters.

And, yes, Obama's race against Keyes wasn't even a race, but the primary was a far tougher fight than any race Mrs. Clinton's been in.


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Boy that must be some good stuff your smoking today Rob... These odds make no sense whatsoever.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I really don't get that either. And I think with the NH and Iowa polls and Obama's huge cash take, Hillary's chances just moved down a bit


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I think a lot of the netroots and media are looking at the 2008 race the same way they did in 2004. Dean had the majority of the netroots support and was "unstoppable" and "inevitable" before the first vote was cast. The Obama phenomenon reminds me very much of the Dean phenomenon. I think if Clinton fails the likely beneficiaries will be Edwards or Richardson rather than Obama.  


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Three differences between Dean and Obama:

1) Obama has been smart enough to craft a message that does not box him in on the left side of the Dem party. His less bitterly partisan framing will make it harder for Hillary and Edwards to tag him as "unelectable" during the primaries, and if he wins the nomination, will help him win moderates in the fall. It amazes me that so many progressives can't seem to see the wisdom of the way he and Axelrod are framing his message. Rather than naive, his "brand" is a very sophisticated piece of political positioning.

2) Obama's personality is very calm and careful. He is occasionally willing to take big risks, but he chooses his spots. Dean was more of a "shoot from the lip" style, which caused him to make too many mistakes and left him less well prepared for responding to attacks.

3) David Axelrod is not Joe Trippi. Axelrod is a much more sophisticated player. Trippi for all his innovative use of the net, blew it in Iowa.


by upper left on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Bill Clinton is a superstar and is now raising money for the Mrs. (not fair, but descriptive).  He projects a lot of things to the electorate, but if Hillary plays it smart, she reminds the people that with a Clinton in the WH, there will be competence in all federal agencies.After Bushie, that's a big chip.


by melh on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:36:50 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (3.00 / 1)

That's true of any Dem, really.

I think his campaigning for her just encourages fatigue with Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton.


by Mimikatz on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You know what's great? The networks (none / 0)

might just have to show the Conventions again( way more than the speech accorded a few during prime time) which can only be good for a new generation of progressives and those that "have checked out can check back in"

I know I'm getting ahead of the whole game when the focus is on money today, but the way delegates are chosen and who those delegates are is now a fascinating side show.

And those of us with blogs that activists are turning to locally to read should start enquiring about passes to cover the Dem Convention in Denver


by merbex on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:39:13 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

John Edwards is leading comfortably in North Carolina, being 14% ahead of Hillary Clinton, his next rival. This is a Public Policy Polling poll. Details here:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/


by kingsbridge77 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:16:26 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I owuldn't take too much stock in this poll... 94% of the respondents were White... the african American population of NC is 22% according to the census... given Obama and Billary's standing in that community, their numbers are probably a lot lower than they would be in actuality... kind of irresponsible polling on the pollsters part.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well theres no way in hell (none / 0)

Edwards loses NC unless he's not running. I just don't see it.


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well theres no way in hell (none / 0)

I'm not saying he will lose it... I'm saying he probably isn't as far ahead as that poll states... and the poll is bad as it doesn't represent the states demographic.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well theres no way in hell (none / 0)

Oops... never mind... I didn't realize they divided demos by party... My mistake... the Dems demo are much more inline.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well theres no way in hell (none / 0)

Although the numbers on the poll for 18-29 is VERY low only 5%... so that may make a difference.  I do think Edwards wins NC (like Obama will win IL and HRC will win NY) but it will be closer than this poll shows.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards and Obama fans have to love (3.00 / 1)

that SV Iowa poll.

Clinton in 3rd in Iowa? yeah, baby.


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:48:35 PM EST

Whoever finishes third in Iowa is going to look... (none / 0)

...like she bombed, big time.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoever finishes third in Iowa is going to loo (none / 0)

Sure, but the primaries are a long way from now. Campaigning inensifies in the summer and in the fall, much more than it is now. For some reason, I think Edwards has more staying power than Obama.


by bsavage on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoever finishes third in Iowa is going to loo (none / 0)

Somehow, by the end of the summer, I think that Hillary is going to be in 3rd behind Edwards and Obama as the two outraise her and gain support.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

that given the size of crowds Obama's drawn in NH, that he'd really finish third there.  I feel like, showing up to someone's event is a bigger show of support than just saying their name to a phone poller.  And the people who go to events are far more likely to vote in the primaries than someone who just picked up the phone and answered some questions.


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 05:06:40 PM EST

Re: I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

Showing up to an event does not commit you to voting for someone any more than looking at someone's website or watching a news report about a candidate does.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 05:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

That's like saying reading dkos and going to YearlyKos are the same thing.  Getting your ass off the couch and going to an event is a bigger commitment than just looking at a web site for two minutes.  And yes, people go to events to check out a candidate, but when Obama not only breaks attendance records, but outdraws the previous record two- and three-fold, I think it's safe to say he's got some appeal in New Hampshire, and I'd be shocked if that didn't have some impact on primary voting.


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

If YearlyKos were free and happening in your town, would you go just to see some of the speakers, even if you weren't an avid fan of Daily Kos? You might.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 02:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

Okay, I'll buy that argument.  But then why did Obama get 10,000 people when no one in the history of the state had ever drawn 3,000??  Plenty of other candidates have visited NH, done events for free, etc., without getting that kind of reaction.  I think that's a pretty clear sign of Obama's popularity, but if you've got another explanation, I'd be happy to hear it.


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 05:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

Look, there's no doubt that there's something going on here - but what? Huge crowds have greeted him in Iowa and New Hampshire, but he hasn't moved in the polls.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 05:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

I know - my earlier post was an attempt to speculate as to why that disparity exists.  And I think it's that political junkies - the kinds of people who go to rallies and vote in primaries - are excited about this guy.  Whereas the average person who answers a phone survey doesn't know much about Obama, which is why the polls don't reflect that same excitement.  But the average person doesn't vote in the primaries - primary turnout is much lower than that of the general election.  So if Obama's more popular among people who are paying attention to politics, I think that helps him in the primary.  But that's just my theory.


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:11:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it hard to believe... (none / 0)

Yeah, its a bit different in New Hampshire from what friends from there tell me... they often go to events for a lot of different candidates to get a gauge on who they want to support.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton Never Had a Lead in Iowa (none / 0)

Sorry but Hillary Clinton never had a lead in Iowa.  I am really tired of people in the media saying that Democratic Iowa polls have been "all over the place".  That is just simply not true.  Senator Citnon has only won 3 polls and they have all been ARG polls.  ARG Iowa 2008 Democratic polls do not use tight enough screens so too many non caucus goers take part in the polls.  

Besides the partially (or fully, depending on how you look at it) discredited ARG polls Edwards has won all 12 Iowa polls since June 2006.  He tied once with Obama in the only Iowa poll to include Al Gore and he tied once with Obama after his announcement.  Normally I wouldn't just buy into the criticism of the ARG screens but when every poll before and after all of their polls says something different, that tells you all you need to know.  ARG appears to have tightened the screen for their third poll.  Both their first and second poll gave Clinton a 20 or 21 point bump compared to the polls taken around the same time by other pollsters.

The Edwards polls have gone something like this...

Edwards wins 4 polls
First ARG poll gives Clinton 20 point boost (compared to last non ARG poll) and lead
Edwards wins 2 more polls
Second ARG poll gives Clinton a 21 point boost(compared to last non ARG poll) and lead
Edwards wins 2 more polls
Third ARG poll gives Clinton only a one point lead.  Must have tightened screen.
Edwards wins 4 more polls

In fact, without the ARG polls, here are the Iowa polls.  I got them off of TC4JE.

Strategic Vision Poll - March 30-April 1, 2007
4% margin of error
Likely Caucus Goers Only

John Edwards - 27%
Barack Obama - 20%
Hillary Clinton - 19%
Joe Biden - 4%
Bill Richardson - 4%
Wesley Clark - 1%
Chris Dodd - 1%
Dennis Kucinich - 1%
Undecided - 23%

University of Iowa Poll - April 3, 2007
4% marin of error
Likely Caucus Goers Only

Edwards - 34.2%
Clinton - 28.5%
Obama - 19.3%
Richardson - below 2%
Biden - below 2%
Dodd - below 2%
Kucinich - below 2%
Undecided - 12.5%

Who is electable? - Same Poll

Edwards - 89%
Obama - 86.6%
Clinton - 76.5%

Zogby Poll - March 26, 2007
4.5% margin of error
Likely Caucus Goers

John Edwards - 27%
Hillary Clinton - 25%
Barack Obama - 23%
Joe Biden - 3%
Bill Richardson - 3%
Dennis Kucinich - 1%
Chris Dodd - 1%
Not Sure -15%

University of Iowa Series of Polls - March 19-25, 2007

Note: These polls measured the differences in support for the candidates before and after Senator Edwards announcement that Elizabeth Edwards had a reacurrence of cancer.
Caucus Goers Only - Before the announcement

John Edwards - 30.2%
Hillary Clinton - 24.4%
Barack Obama - 22.1%

Caucus Goers Only - After the annoncement

John Edwards - 36.4%
Hillary Clinton - 33.9%
Barack Obama - 14.4%

Strategic Vision Poll - Feb. 16-18, 2007.
4% margin of error
Likely Iowa Caucus Goers

John Edwards - 24%
Hillary Clinton - 18%
Barack Obama - 18%
Tom Vilsack - 14%
Joe Biden - 5%
Bill Richardson - 3%
Wesley Clark - 2%
Chris Dodd - 1%
Dennis Kucinich -1%
Undecided - 14%

Zogby Poll - Feb 7-8, 2007.
4% margin of error

Likely Iowa Caucus Goers

John Edwards - 24%
Hillary Clinton - 24%
Barack Obama - 18%
Tom Vilsack - 9%
Joe Biden - 4%

Strategic Vision Poll - Jan. 19-21, 2007
4% margin of error

Likely Iowa Caucus Goers

John Edwards - 25%
Barack Obama - 17%
Tom Vilsack - 16%
Hillary Clinton - 15%
Joe Biden - 4%
John Kerry - 3%
Wesley Clark - 2%
Bill Richardson - 1%
Chris Dodd - 1%
Dennis Kucinich - 1%
Undecided - 15%

Zogby Poll - Jan. 15-16, 2007.
4% margin of error

Likely Iowa Caucus Goers

John Edwards - 27%
Barack Obama - 17%
Tom Vilsack - 16%
Hillary Clinton - 16%
Joe Biden - 3%
John Kerry - 3%
Dennis Kucinich - 1%
Bill Richardson - 1%
Not Sure - 13%

KCCI-TV Poll - December 22, 2006.
5% margin of error

John Edwards - 22%
Barack Obama - 22%
Tom Vilsack - 12%
Hillary Clinton - 10%
Al Gore - 7%
John Kerry - 5%
Wesley Clark - 4%
Dennis Kucinich - 4%
Joe Biden - 1%
Evan Bayh - 1%
Bill Richardson - 1%
Undecided - 11%

Note: Most Iowa Polls do not include Al Gore, as he is not likely to run. His inclusion almost certainly skewed the result. It is also worth noting that this poll also included John Kerry and Evan Bayh who are not running, and Wes Clark who likely isn't running.

Des Moines Register Poll - October 12 - 19, 2006.
4% margin of error
Likely Iowa Caucus Goers

John Edwards - 36%
Hillary Clinton - 16%
Barack Obama - 13%
Tom Vilsack - 9%
John Kerry - 6%
Joe Biden - 5%
Undecided - 8%

Des Moines Register Poll - October 12 - 19, 2006
4% margin of error
Iowa Democratic Party County Chairs and Vice Chairs only

Edwards - 40%
Vilsack -15 %
Obama - 11%
Clinton - 8 %

Des Moines Register Poll - June 2006

4% margin of error
Likely Iowa Caucu Goers

Edwards - 30%
Clinton - 26%
Kerry - 12%
Vilsack - 10%

Considering the tremendous amount of free media Clinton and Obama have gotten (the media loves the two of them because it knows it can play the black man vs. white woman card and they are both easy to sensationalize)Edwards is doing great in Iowa.

Sorry, but the whole "Hillary was ahead in Iowa" stuff is just not true.  On two separate occasions the same polling company gave her a miraculous 20 point boost, and temporarily, the lead.  Even if you want to live in la la land and include these whack job polls and separate the two ties Edwards has 8 wins, 2 losses, and 2 ties for first in Iowa.

In reality, JOHN EDWARDS HAS WON EVERY LEGITIMATE IOWA POLL (tied for first twice)


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 05:31:54 PM EST

Re: Clinton Never Had a Lead in Iowa (none / 0)

Relax - this was taken care of in the very first comments.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 05:37:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Makes the general election pretty exciting for Dems... if 80% of those 200,000 donate at the same Averages in the General and we get the passionate volunteers from the other campaigns involved, the potential for a BIG night is there...


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 05:56:09 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

I agree with ALMOST all of of your post. I believe that this seriously points to Senator Obama as the frontrunner for the nomination.

Surely it defies credulity to believe that the grassroots movement for the Obama campaign is less than that, a movement.

His supporters are not only fanatical about their support, but are using the tools of today's new reality (the internet) to compel friends and family to look to thier hopes and dare to examine Senator Obama's campaign with an open mind.


by gcee on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:00:20 PM EST

The Difference (none / 0)

I respect Chris Bowers but what he just did with Iowa polling to justify his comment about Clinton's "lead" was ridiculous.  Having the support of "Registered Democrats" will not help anyone win the Iowa caucus.  The caucuses don't come to you.  You have to locate your precinct and show up.  In order to win a candidate needs Democrats who are actually likely to go to the caucus.  That is why only likely caucus goers matter.  Most "registerd Democrats" are going to be sitting at hoem watching American Idol, not sitting in some croweded library for 3 hours arguing over presidential candidates.

There is a huge difference between...

Mrs. Registered Democrat

...who casually follows politics and answers "Hillary" when they are asked who they will support because they think that because they are a Democrat and the last Democratic president has her last name that they owe her their vote.  They are not at all likely to caucus.  

and...

Mrs. Likely Caucus Goer

...who follows politics frequently, and will be split between Edwards and Obama until the day they go to caucus.  They will not support Senator Clinton, not jsut because of her IWR vote, but because of the way she plays politics with the war, because she is hyper-political in general.

Even the best screen in the world can't keep out all of those who are unlikely to caucus.  Often times respondents will act interested and say whatever they need to say because the call has peeked their interest.

You also might want to remember the atmosphere of most Iowa caucuses.  Do you think Clinton supporters are going to be treated very kindly?  With all that is at stake, should they be?  I'm not saying call them names or anything but a look that says "What are you smoking?" is more than justified.  When it comes down to viability time Edwards,  Obama, and Clinton are going to be the only 3 who can get to 15$.  You can bet your ass that Iowa Dems will unite to stop Clinton.  I think it's safe to say that Edwards will probably ahve the lead.  If he does Obama supporters could very well push him over the top if Clinton mounts a serious challenge.  The same could be said if Obama is leading, Clinton is challenging, and Edwards does not have a chance of winning, although this scenario is not likely.  

Who do you think Richardson, Biden. Dodd, Kucinich, and the 3 Gravel supporters will align themselves with?  Probably not Hillary.  Every candidate that is not Hillary is basically running to be the anti-Hillary (except Richardson who wants to keep his veep options open so he can compete with Bayh, Vilsack, Corzine, and everyone else she has already promised the Veep slot she hasn't earned the right to dole out to).

If you think that I am filled with anti-Hillary vitrole, well I am.  I like that she gave women a sense of empowerment but when it comes to the damage she has done to our party's image and by extension, the country,how everything she does drips with political calculation, and how she has come to stand for everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party, the dark Mark Penn, Howard Wolfson, Harold Ford Jr, Al From, Bruce Reed, consultant driven spinless DLC hack bullshit side.
She has every advantage in this race and then some.  Giving her leads in states in which she never had them (especially the (arguably) most important state) is not necessary.

If Bowers mispoke then that's alright.  If he were arguing that if you don't know how to read polls and you only read certain polls, you could be convinced that there isn't much diference between Edwards and Clinton, then he would have a point.  But when he tries to justify his claim that she once had a lead there (an innocent mistake) by saying 'if you take this poll and look at it sideways and count the opinions of people who aren't going to actually have an effect on the result (I'm sure he is aware that registered voters and  average caucus goers are a lot different, and the latter is far more anti-Hillary / pro - Obama / Edwards)then I can't find how Edwards is in the lead' then that is just b.s.

I'm still a fan. But he missed the mark badly on this one.


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:10:31 PM EST

Re: The Difference (none / 0)

no matter how much you want it to be otherwise, the numbers do not back up your premise. These #,s show that Senator Obama's support is much is wider AND much more sustainable than Sen.s Cinton or Edwards combined.


by gcee on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sustainable is an open question (none / 0)

it might be or it might not be. We just don't know yet. Based on those who did give, he has more potential donors, but we have really no idea how many of those will be willing to give more, how much they can give or the ability of Edwards or Clinton to bring more people in.

Its a bit too early to make broad generalizations or predictions at this point, but he is certianly in a great position. If he can sustain the broad support into further quarters, that would tell us more.


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Difference (none / 0)

I was not talking about fundraising, I was talking about Iowa polling. Look at the numbers.  I posted them above.  If you read the numbers and you think that Obama has a wider, more sustainable base of support in Iowa then you need glasses or a math tutor.


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:03:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Difference (none / 0)

You are in La-La-Land and you are loving it, aren't you?


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Edwards/Obama 2008

The Clinton Dynasty is OVAAAAAAAAA!!!

Hillary you can tell Bill that there is no longer a need to be brokering deals overseas with the Saudis and Japs.


by Djneedle83 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:32:22 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

That is a ovaaaaaaaaa...

With Dickie V...it's OVAAAA baby!!

the rank and file and both the grassroots activists are pulling heavily for Edwards now.

Obama is doing extremely well with younger adults, and blacks, but they have a tendency NOT TO VOTE...

Edwards/Obama will be the ticket...


by Djneedle83 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:33:49 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

Obama/Edwards or Edwards/Obama makes no sense because you can't have two vision candidates on the same ticket. On the campaign trail it would look crazy.


by bsavage on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

There is only a three-way Democratic primary campaign to the anti-Clinton forces who have spewed their venom on the Clintons for decades now.

Senator Clinton is still very much in the lead in most national polls, she maintains a superior organization, and indeed also has a supreme campaign war chest.

When she shattered precedent with her $26 million raised and carry-over $10 million, there was little fanfare.  The American media can no more find it possible to praise either Clinton than can the moody bloggers, who are swept up in the anti-Clinton mania and babble their dubious reasons why.

The $25 million for Obama was no surprise to anyone in the Clinton camp.  The established media has been promulgating the as yet not truly qualified Senator Obama much as they promulgated the then totally unqualified candidate George Walker Bush in 2000.

Oprah Winfrey foolishly softened then candidate GWB's image for her wide following by permitting him to appear on her program as a sort of folksy, gentlemanly Texas good ol' boy--and of course, he was none of these things.  He was, in fact, very much an establishment insider with northeastern pedigree.

But the media then had to make certain that Clinton successor Al Gore did not make it to the White House.  Thus, Gore had no praise from the establishment press; he was depicted as wooden, vacillating, attempting to remake himself as an "alpha male."

In those days, the forerunners of Senator Obama bloggers were madly in love with the candidacy of Ralph Nader.  Nader, of course, was yet another instrument by which the anti-Clinton forces could prevent successor Al Gore from coming to power.

Now, believing that the fine presidential candidate Senator Edwards and the equally fine but not yet ready presidential candidate Senator Obama are equal in stature for the Democratic nomination with the former First Lady of the United States and now second term Senator from New York can only be borne of that longstanding anti-Clinton fervor so long ingrained into the American mindset.

It can be assumed only by cherry-picking the polls to suit the needs of Senator Clinton's rivals.

They of course, would argue that Senator Clinton is unelectable.  This was often said of candidate Bill Clinton in 1992.  What Bill Clinton made manifestly clear is that it is not necessary to win either New Hampshire or Iowa primaries and prevail.

Today, the media fuels the Senator Obama passion.  What they realize, and the myopic bloggers do not, is that Senator Obama will be the most easily redefined of the prospective candidates.

Should he become so prematurely the nominee--and I believe he will not be--in the end, I think he will be fortunate to carry the state of Illinois and little else.

The last time America got it right was when a Clinton came to power.  Not an addlepated film star named Reagan.

The nation has a choice now--to returned to what was proven successful, or risk it all on further years of anti-Clinton sentiment.

Most of the world pines for the return of those Clinton years, as do many thoughtful Americans.  In the end I believe that the Clinton nostalgia will best both the myopia of the bloggers and the leftover venom of anti-Clinton forces ingrained so long ago.

And indeed, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton will become the nation's first woman president, and will be among the finest of all United States presidents.

Just as the current President Bush 43, who disavowed all things Clinton, is surely the nation's all-time worst.


by lambros on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:52:25 PM EST

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

HA HA HA HA ROTFLMAO...

Sorry, my calendar says April 4th... I didn't realize it was wrong and it is actually April 1.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Three-Way Campaign Emerges (none / 0)

There's drinking the Kool-Aid and then there's whatever new kind of super guzzling you have invented.  


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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