State Polling Insights

So, because many Clinton supporters have been pointing to them lately, supposedly as a sign that Clinton's lead is both large and stable, I was flipping through state polls on the Democratic primary. Here are some quick insights:
  1. Clinton has a northeast base. There are nine states were multiple polls have shown Clinton ahead by an average of more than double digit margins since the start of February: California, Connecticut, Florida, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Six of these states are in the northeast, and one of them, Florida, has a large northeast émigré population. Clearly, Clinton's strength is to be found in the northeast.

  2. Home states There are four states with multiple polls since the beginning of February where Clinton is trailing: Illinois (to Obama), Iowa (to Edwards), New Mexico (to Richardson) and North Carolina (to Edwards). All but one, Iowa, is a homestate for one of Clinton's main competitors. It is actually quite telling that Clinton leads comfortably in Delaware and Connecticut, against Biden and Dodd respectively. While Richardson is able to hold his home turf, just as Edwards and Obama unsurprisingly hold theirs, Biden and Dodd can't even hold their homestate supporters. Keep in mind that Edwards, Obama and Richardson were only elected statewide a combined four times, while Biden and Dodd were elected at least that many times each. It is interesting to note that the state sporting the largest Clinton lead, 33%, is Arkansas. I guess they still consider her one of their own down there.

  3. Early States. The other area where Clinton is somewhat weaker is generally found in early states. In addition to the four states where she trails, multiple polls have shown a single-digit race in five states: Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. It is interesting to not that of the seven northeast states with multiple polls since February, famously early New Hampshire is the only one where Clinton does not currently hold a sizable, double-digit lead. Overall, Clinton's lead is noticeably smaller, or even non-existent in the pre-February 5th, and potentially pre-February 5th, early states of Iowa, New Hampshire, Michigan and South Carolina. Keep in mind that Arizona also has a long history of early primaries. The lone exception to the home-state / early state rule for Clinton weakness seems to be Georgia, where Obama's strength probably comes from African-Americans making up the largest percentage of the Democratic primary electorate of any state in the country.

  4. State polls not so out of line with national polls. Considering the eighteen states with multiple polls since the start of February, I see no real disconnect or other incompatibility between state polls and national polls. The key is to filter out those states with very few data points. Take California, for instance. In the five California polls since the beginning of March (see also Pollster.com here for one poll wikipedia left out), Clinton's average lead was 14.6%, and her median advantage was 13%. During the time period when those five polls were taken, March 2nd through April 12th, Clinton's average lead in national polls, according to my estimate, was 11.5%. That is only a 3% gap in the mean, and a 1.5% gap in the median. What difference there is can hardly be considered surprising, since California is not the home state of any Democratic candidate, is not a pre-February 5th state, and does not have a large African-American population in the primary electorate. And there is always margin of error, too. Whatever difference there is between California polls to date and national polls taken at the same time period is extremely minimal, and not demonstrative of anything in particular.

    This actually leads to an instructive point. Instead of looking at individual state polls or individual national polls, it is always best to look at averages across polls. Right now, there simply are not many states where there are multiple polls to average. In the eighteen states where there is at least a rudimentary average, there is no real disconnect between national polls and state polls that cannot be chalked up to the early state / home state / high African-American concentration exceptions. Further, recent movement to Obama measured in national poll averages over the last two weeks cannot be captured in state polls, simply because there are so few statewide polls in that time period. Of course Clinton is going to do better in older polls, in non-early states, in non-home states, in states with low African-American populations, and non-Rasmussen polls (Keep in mind that Rasmussen lowers the national poll averages by a couple of points, and is not going to conduct any state primary polls in 2008). And of course she will do a little worse in most newer polls, most early state polls, most home state polls, most Rasmussen polls, and most polls with large African-American samples. The key to remember is that national polling averages are made up of universes sampled in all these kinds of polls, (except older polls). Thus, national polling averages will always produce results slightly less favorable to Clinton than will polls of February 5th states like California, Ohio and New Jersey, which tend to be the most favorable to Clinton. This doesn't mean that either national polls or state polls are flawed--it just means that it is important to take the entire polling picture into account when drawing conclusions about the campaign, rather than picking and choosing the polls you like best. Don't use isolated, individual polls as a means to develop an anecdotal, circumstantial and context-free picture that favors your candidate.
Overall, I am struck by the homogeneity in state primary polls. There simply no longer appears to be any regional blocks to speak of in the Democratic Party. Sure, there are slight differences, but we are only talking about 5-10% at most. Even among demographic groups in the party, with few exceptions Pew's recent poll showed the difference among those groups was under 10%. The entire list of "very few" exceptions includes: regular blog readers (pro-Edwards and Obama), conservative Democrats (pro-Clinton), African-Americans (anti-Edwards), Dems under thirty (pro-Obama), those who never attended college (pro-Clinton), those with incomes over $100,000 (pro-Obama), those with incomes under $30,000 (pro-Clinton), and seculars (pro-Obama, anti-Clinton). Obviously, as repeated demographic surveys of the blogosphere have shown, there is a lot of cross-over between regular blog readers, those with high incomes, and seculars.

All in all, this probably means that any candidate who is ahead by 6% or more in national polls going into February 5th will virtually sweep every state that night. There just is no longer enough regionalism and demographic skews in the Democratic Party to prevent this. In order to produce a lengthy campaign, the national picture will need to be very, very close heading into February 5th. Even if the leading candidate is ahead by only 8% nationwide on February 4th, which is the current amount I estimate Clinton to be ahead of Obama nationwide, the campaign will probably be over on February 6th.



Display:


Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

I do agree that the primary is going to be over by February 6th. That being said, who knows where the poll numbers are going to be.

It's going to be see how the Iowa dynamic plays out. I used to think that the winner there would steamroll, but now I'm not so sure. The only person I think who could run the table after winning Iowa is Obama. Edwards will get a push from winning the state, but I think that New Hampshire (if it moves ahead of NV) could still be difficult. As for Nevada, I haven't a damn clue what will happen, given that the caucuses there have never been given much attention. As for Clinton, if she wins Iowa, it may knock out Edwards, but probably not Obama.

In truth, I still have an awfully hard time envisioning Clinton winning, despite the poll numbers...especially in Iowa.


by PsiFighter37 on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:34:13 AM EST

Edwards is done with an Iowa defeat (3.00 / 0)

Matterfact, i'll take it one step further and say, Edwards has to win Iowa convincingly and winning it by a few points won't give him enough cocktail to steamroll through NH and SC.

The reason why Edwards won't steamroll after an Iowa win is because Obama and Hillary's supporters will probably must likely tighten up behind them and vote religiously for their candidate...If Edwards wins Iowa, he will have to convince the black community that they should vote in mass number for him and not Hillary and i just don't see it...If Edwards can't make the pitch to black voters and explain to them why they should give up on their own to support him, not hillary...Very hard sell considering that Hillary is mus likely the black vote second choice by a large margin.

Hillary has the women vote behind him and they are also die-hard supporters and won't drop hillary even with an Iowa defeat..Edwards is the only candidate that doesn't have a firm base when i look at it.


by JaeHood on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 04:34:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Over on 2/6? (3.00 / 0)

Democrats have three strong candidates that are each going to get a lot of votes.  This means that the States that are not winner take all will split their delegates so that the winner might only get 35%.  Even if HRC (or whoever) wins a majority of States on 2/5, the combination of Obama and Edwards delegates would easily exceed the HRC delegates.  The bottom line is that there is a good probability that it will not be over on 2/6.  A true three way contest is much more complicated to project than a two way contest.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:34:31 AM EST

Re: Over on 2/6? (none / 0)

I totally agree that it won't be over on 2/6.

We have months and months to go from now until then, and the ability of the candidates to differentiate and rally a core base up to then is pretty huge. The winner on 2/6 will have a large advantage, but teh analysis above leads me to believe it won't be overwhelming unless that lead is ratified with further wins through the rest of Feb.


by Paradox13 on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:31:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Don't know much about the Northeast Chris, but Califonia is just about as far away as you can get. Furthermore, as a native Californian I've never found early political polls instructive here, what's more instructive is the general buzz and it's very anti-Hillary, even in Hollywood. Honestly, I would be more surprised by a Clinton victory than a Dodd one here, despite what early polls may say. My honest best guess right now is a toss up for between Richardson and Obama (before people pile on for pushing Richardson recognize their is a huge LEGAL latina population in California that does get out and vote even in primaries).

They are also the only two I would vote for (except Gravel if I'm feeling grumpy).


by BeekerDynasty on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:35:19 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

If Richardson doesn't gain any traction in the coming months, I'm not sure if he'll still be a viable candidate by then.

Frankly, his performance at the SC debate was awful. He had a chance to distinguish himself somewhat, and he dropped the ball.


by PsiFighter37 on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:37:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

I can't see Richardson winning Cali. I think it will be Clinton or Obama.


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by robliberal on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:45:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

I would throw Edwards in there too.  General consensus coming out of the CDP convention where everybody spoke was that he was the only contender to exceed expectations.  Obama did great and was very dynamic.  Hillary humanized herself and got a good response (at least for her at that crowd) but Edwards really impressed both for fire and substance.  They all did very well and it was a great event.


by juls on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:53:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Only if he wins a string of other states before the 5th.  Iowa, NH, SC, and Michigan.  Then he could do it.  Maybe.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

It's true, there is a very big Latino community of eligible voters in California, but the political structure there hasn't been in existence particularly long, and is largely untested, at least election-wise.

This is changing pretty fast though- witness 2006 immigration mobilization, etc (still I can't see Richardson taking CA though).


TheDailyBackground.com
by remove on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Errr, by political structure, I mean Latino political structure. Hit the "post" button too soon.


TheDailyBackground.com
by remove on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Fabian Nunez -- speaker of the CA Assembly -- endorsed Clinton, so it's not obvious Richardson even has the Latino's leaders in CA.


by lawsonb on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 04:34:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Don't assume Richardson has the Latina vote. In my Texas polling of primary voters, that was Clinton's strongest group.


by IVR Polls on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 09:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Latina vote?


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:06:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Hispanic women - as used in the post above "huge LEGAL latina population"


by IVR Polls on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (3.00 / 1)

OK, just making sure.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 03:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So, fix the wikipedia entry, Chris! (none / 0)

Hey Chris, this is a minor and somewhat off-topic point... but if Wikipedia left out one of the polls, then you should add it in.

After all, that's the whole point of Wikipedia - many eyes make quality text.

It annoys me to no end whenever I hear a mainstream-media a-hole say something like, "Wikipedia inaccurately reported XXXXX."  Well, dammit, if you found an error, do the responsible thing and fix it!

OK, done ranting.  Back on topic now.


by karichisholm on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:38:46 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

the big question is what happens if clinton doesn't win Iowa and independants help give New Hampshire too Obama, and he wins SCar based on that and does in  the end win most blcak voters, is Clinton able to regroup of Feb 5th , I don't think so because instead of "inevatibilty" she'll have the aura of "unelectability" but i'm not sure, all I do know is if Independants decide to play in the dems primary in New Hampshire she will not win the state.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:06:12 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

I think New Hampshire may be the best indicator of who takes Feb 5th. If Obama beats HRC by a significant margin then I think it would difficult for her to win on Feb 5th. It is possible that the Florida primary could act as a catalyst for HRC to gain momentum going into Feb 5th if it is held in jan. At present the exact dates of some of the primaries and caucuses are uncertain.


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:39:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

simpler point....If Clinton doesn't win Iowa or New Hampshire does a national "8 point" lead going into two states she's probably going to have the hardest time winning have any chance of holding up following losses there.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:09:38 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Depend whats the expectation is. The importance thing of the early states is not winning them, but doing better then expected.

Say that in 8 months hence Dodd will be expected to win with 70% of the vote and leave Biden and Gravel with 25% and 5% each.

And say that the actual results are 45% Dodd, 37.5% Biden and 17.5% Gravel, Dodd will have won but still be virtually out of the race. Leaving Biden and Gravel to slug it out.

Iowa and New Hampshire are about winning the expectations game, and not about winning their delegates.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 10:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Every poll out of Iowa has shown Edwards leading so it is hardly going to be much of a shock if he wins. New Hampshire is rather different.

I would say that it is vital for all the main contenders to get a win somewhere in Jan.


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (3.00 / 1)

Here we go again with the Clinton campaign is dead or is soon going to sink. It's either that or her base of supporters is low information voters, they are stupid and they are morons.
If I had to guess from all the polls, its very likely that there will already be a winner before the primaries even start. Either Clinton, Obama, or Edwards will have the nomination wrapped up based on all the debates, coverage and intensity on our side.  
by bsavage on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:22:38 AM EST

Hillary didn't do so bad the other evening (none / 0)

Dynasties and all, I'd actually vote for the woman in a general election.

AIPAC notwithsanding.


by SecondComing on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:27:20 AM EST

If it makes you feel better. (3.00 / 1)

A dynasty is a family where the family members use their inherited money, contacts and name recognition to gain power.

Think the Bush family, the Kennedy's, The Tafts, The Rockefellers, and The Roosevelt's. There are a lot of dynasties in American politics. Some of them actually did produce some very good politicians some of them produce some very bad ones.

The trouble of dynasties are that the inherited money, contacts and name recognition makes that incompetence failures aren't weeded out through natural selection until it is too late.

Hillary doesn't have that problem as although she has the same last name as Bill, She didn't inherent his power, she helped create it as part of the "two for one" partnership she and Bill always had.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Whichever of the top three finishes last in Iowa will be in very bad shape.  The fight isn't going to be for first, it will be for second.

The story might not be that Edwards wins Iowa, but that Hillary or Obama LOSEs Iowa.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:29:55 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

a third place finish and the on to NH with independants would pose problems for Hillary as for the pro-Hillary poster, simply make your case, I agree if Hillary wins Iowa and NH with any type of marigns it's over, but a national lead that doesn't correlate to those states is a set up for a huge fall, see Dean, Howard of 2004.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 03:14:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Since there are a lot of anti-Clinton people (none / 0)

among Edwards supporters I would not be surprised if a few of them jump ship and vote for Obama if it looks like he is the only one who can beat her early next year.

And the other way around of course, providing that Edwards climbs in the polls. I would surely vote for Edwards if I thought that he was the one best positioned to beat Hillary.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 05:04:56 AM EST

Re: Since there are a lot of anti-Clinton people (none / 0)

I think you might be right.


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:48:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (1.00 / 1)

CLinton supporters ARE low information voters and they NOT LIKELY TO ACTUALLY VOTE.  The clinton camp knows this, trust me.  why do you think that they were peeing themselves with fear at the prospect of Edwards dropping out (when it was still up in the air regarding his wife)because they know that their only chance to win is to split the more progressive / anti-war vote.  Clinton's camp has already admitted that things are not going as planned.  that is why they stopped attacking Obama,started the whole Hillary self-depreciating thing (notice how all of her aides won't shut up about how she knows that she has to "earn" the nomination when it before the subtext to everything they said was "you owe her your vote").  It's also why they are dusting of the "two for the price of one" theme.

Face it.  She is as unelectable as it gets and Dems break toward electability at the end.  If John Edwards is not the presumptive Democratic nominee after Feb. 5th it will be for one reason and one reason only...The MSM have largely ignored him because they know that Hillary and Obama are both easier to sensationalize.  Hillary has a cheating husband and they can't shut up about Obama's middle name.  Never mind the fact that both Obama and Clitnon take lobbyist money (Obama says that he doesn't take money from "registered" lobbyists but his finance team is contacting the spouses of lobbyists and having them give to the campaign, as a proxy for the lobbyist themself) and both are big hits on Wall Street.  

Back to the electability - Clinton's approval has dropped around 10 points recently and she already had NO room for error.  The funniest line of the debate (even funnier than Gravel) was when she said that the GOP was looking forward to facing her because she stands up for what she believes in.  Yeah right, the only thing that she believes is her own ambition, and that flag burning should be a crime, of course. Joe Biden only says that the GOP shouldn't wish for her to kiss up to women voters.  Hillary has nothing to run on except her gender, her husband (notice how she pulled out her secret weapon, making Bill ambassador to the world, most Americans opposed the idea), and her applause line attacks on President Bush.  She is running as her husband agaisnt Bush and everyone can see through it.  I'm as anti Bush as it gets but come on Hillary, you can do better than that.

Any Hillary supporter who says that she has momentum must be paying attention to Mark Penn, her pollster, and the slimiest piece of establishment s**t to ever call themself a Clitonista (and that includes Howard Wolfson, who is pretty slimy).  Penn got fired from the Gore campaign for using push polls to back his "centrist" views.  Penn is a mushy centrist, in more ways than one, and the fact that Clinton surrounds herself with these people says all you need to know.

If the media gives Edwards decent coverage (it took MSNBC an hour and 45 minutes to mention him after the debate even though The Hotline reported 20 minutes after the debate that the press's consensus was that Edwards and Clinton did the best, although there was no real winner)he'll be the nominee.  Everytime he gets more coverage his favorability goes up and he has consistently done the best against Republicans in general election polling.  As substance and electability take the spotlight he'll do even better.  He may still be trailing in the national polling that makes no attempt to eliminate non-caucus voters but if he gets even half the covergage the other 2 do he'll be able to win Iowa, use labor support and momentim to win Nevada, win or place second in New Hampshire, and win South Carolina.  From there he'll be able to win all of the states except for IL, NY, NJ, some northeastern states (although he recently recieved an 11 point bump in that region) and maybe California (although the most recent poll shows him only a point or two behind Obama and he just picked up endorsements there).  He'll still get enough delegates from CA to finish the job on 2/5/08, unless of course the media keeps the Hillary / Barack show on constant re-run.

If Hillary wins the nomination it will be for all the wrong reasons.  It will be because the low information voters (and yes you are "stupid") think"Bill Democratic President...Me Democrat...Hillary Bill's Wife...Me vote for Hillary" and the media is too afraid of potentially losing their "acess" that they are too afraid to admit that Hillary Clinton just can't win.  

For those who think she can, let's say that she wins the nomination.  Bill has already admitted to lying about affairs with Lewinsky and Flowers.  As stupid as it is to focus on these things we all know that the GOP will create a false accuser (they probably won't have to as Clinton admitted as early as 1988 to numerous affairs) and no one will trust Bill when he says "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."  Hillary will go from "wronged woman" to the power hungry woman who was willing to stay in a marriage for political convenience.  She's already set us up for the inevtiable by saying that her and Bill "began a conversation a long time ago and haven't stopped talking since."  We all know that when he talks about a "conversatiion" she is full of it.  She is preparing the country for seeing her and Bill as being more close friends than husband and wife.  Does any of this crap really matter?  No.  But it matters who wins the next election and any small chance she had of winning will go out the door when this happens.

Do you Clinton supporters really think that the GOP won't do this?  Have you forgot about the "Arkansas Project"?  Do you realize that the one thing that can unite a fractured GOP is us nominating Hillary?    


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 05:15:01 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Latest Rasmussen Poll today shows for the first time that Clinton is not in the lead:

Obama  32
Clinton 30
Edwards 17

This is a very competative race with all three candidates


by BDM on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 08:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Or as Clinton supporters call it: "In the margin of error."


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 10:19:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Or, Rasmussen is using screens that are off.  Chris Bowers estimates the national race is at 8% at this point, which means Rasmussen would be off by a full 10%.   Makes it almost as much of an outlier as the "Insider Advantage" poll (also touted by BDM) from South Carolina which showed Obama ahead by a whopping 14% when every other poll shows Clinton with an actual lead there.  


by georgep on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 10:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Let's not be too hasty. Averages move. Sure, Rasmussen has tended to be Obama-friendly, which probably gives him a few points, but you can't declare it to be an outlier rather than indicative of any change until after there have been a few more polls. It could be, for example, that it's movement from the debate (although I'm not sure how - maybe voters who previously didn't have a clue and hence weren't working on expectations?)


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

No it isn't. Obama leads HRC by 2 with Edwards a distant third. The distance between Edwards and Richardson is practically the same as the distance between 2nd place HRC and 3rd place Edwards; is anyone seriously calling this a 4 horse race? Of course not.


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:52:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

They polled in advance of the debate according to the text on their website. I would say that if Rasmussen's likely voter model is correct then Obama is in a very strong position.


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Ranting about another candidate won't get your candidate elected.  Only showing the positives that candidate has to offer.  If you can't do that, he is going to be doomed.  


by georgep on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 10:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

GEORGEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (1.00 / 1)

Oh god, boygeorgP guzzled the Kool Aid again.

Georgie!

This rant was largely about your candidate. WAKE UP!  Her approval ratings are going DOWN!!  Her lead in the primary polling that is LARGELY INGISGNIFACNT at this point anyway is by most metrics shrinking.  She has no backbone.  She stands for nothing.  Her top adviser is Mark Fucking Penn.  You really are dillusional aren't you.

Imagine Hillary saying this (courtesy of the Stephanie Miller show)

"If I had all the facts when we attacked Iraq I woudn't have backed it"

Talk about Shrill.  Which one is she?  Is she "from the middle of America" or is she back to the "southern twang".  Which one is it?  I know a couple words to describe it...ANNOYING AS HELL!

Have you read about Carl Bernstein (of Watergate fame) and his book on Mrs. "Fast and Lose with the Truth".  Someone has been telling a lot of fibs and her name is HILLARY!!!

You want positives about John Edwards -

- He can win the general election.  It's kind of important when you want to be president.  You can cherry pick like your buddy Mark Penn but the bulk of polling makes one thing clear - Edwards is the most electable Democrat.  That's why Karl Rove, Ben Ginsburg, Matt Blunt, and many other Republicans have admitted that they are plain scared of him.  

- He is running a substantive campaign.  First with a health care plan, he has an energy and global warming plan, a detailed Iraq plan, a rural recovery plan, a plan to combat poverty and a plan for Darfur.  ALL of which have been praised by everyone from Krugman, to Mike Allen, to Friedman, to Crowley, to Tumulty, to Mario Cuomo and on and on.  

- He shows leadership.  If I named all the times he was the first time to do something I'd be her all day.  Here's a few.

- Saying no to FOX twice

  • Firing Karl Rove
  • Booting Gonalazes
  • He's the only candidate ready for prime time enough to say yes to do the Meet the Press Meet the Candidate series.  Obama backed out and Clinton has flat denied.  Same with a recent edition of the Hardball College Tour.  
  • Backing Jim Webb's Iran legislation
  • supporting Kerry - Feingold (Obama and Hillary didn't)
  • calling for cutting off funds for the surge (obama and hillary stopped short.
  • Accepting SEIU's offer to work a union job for a day
  • Responding to DFA's call for a CLEAR PLAN TO END THE WAR

- Edwards is running a campaign based on taking action to bring about transformational change in the world.  Hillary is running a campaign about herself.  It is  a guilt trip to remind Dems that she is Bill's wife.  She is running as Bill against the Bush Administration.  Obama is running a fluffy "personality driven" campaign.

- Edwards has made "reclaim the Democratic Party his rallying cry.  He talks about NOT triangulating.  He talks about how the American people should know exactly what he stands for and exactly what he will do as president.  Clinton tries to muddy the waters.  Edwards talks about conviction and backbone and standing up for our convictions.

Hillary throws the party under a bus to try to look like a hawk.  She says "Some in my party are running to tell you that the war on terror isn;t a threat, but that's not me." (paraphrased.  Obama does it on trade policy.  Richardson does it on taxes.  Edwards does it on...oh yeah...that's right...he DOESN"T DO IT.

- Then of course there's the other part of the electability factor.  Edwards beat an incumbent Senator by 4% in a six -year itch election in a state so conservative that his opponent bragged about being more conservative than Jesse Helms (the other fmr NC Senator.  Polls showed that even after Edwards had one of the most progressive Senate records in 03' he would have beat any GOP challenger for his Senate seat in NC by at least 6%.  Hillary of course picked the state of her choice and coasted to victory.

Now let's get to the dirt. What do they have on Edwards.

He was an advocay lawyer.  They tried using this against him in NC and in 04' and it didn't do anything.

One time a new volunteer tried to play hero and get his kida a PS3 from Wal-Mart (who he didn't know Edwards had rallied against) for free.  Ooohhh, such a big deal, I'm so scared.

He bought a secluded house in NC (reportedly his family was threatened) with his own money.  Oh no, it's not like FDR and JFK were rich too.

And then the most recent one.  His campaign flew out a hairstylist who cut Edwards' hair (it was a busy day for Edwards) and then flew the stylist back.  They stylist billed the campaign instead of the Edwards' and the campaign paid the bill.  When Edwards found out he reimbursed the campaign.

WOW!! How devastating.  Have I mentioned that his favorability ranking was untouched by the hair thing?  Edwards has been vetted for VP twice (Gore nearly picked him in 2000).  There is nothing on him.  

Then there's Hillary.

Like I said, don't we all know what the GOP will do if she wins the nomination?

Tell me georgep, is her campaign's claim that it is Bill's "personal business" going to stop them?  Do you have any idea of how much these people hate her (for all the wrong reasons.  What happens when Bernstein's book comes out.  What about Dick Morris' movie (he is the turdiest of turds but it could be big news).  The sad thing is that because she has been untruthful and so damn power hungry it makes the GOP idiots look like they have her number.  They mostly hate her because she is an intelligent woman, which is a stupid reason, but she is seriously "ethically challenged".

If you where to hear that tomorrow one of Bill's ex's was going to come forward.  Would you still be on her acting like she can win the general?  Honestly?  Face it, it is going to happen.  It sucks, it's stupid, but it's reality.  Her real problems are that she stands for nothing and she is willing to seriously damage the party or validate GOP frames to do it.  Democratic primary voters might not see that, and she might win the nomination.  But if she does it will be because she was able to use her establishment connections and the media's fear of losing their access to confuse enough low information Dems.

She is not even half the candidate John Edwards is.  She lectures while he is plain spoken.  She is driven by a pollster (Penn) who polls everything she does to death.  Edwards was the only major Dem to do NO POLLING so far.  He also has NO support on K street or Wall Street but Hillary is loved by them.

And what's up with Bush "Pioneers"backing Hillary and Obama.  I can understand a few being turned off by Dubya, but this many?  You should see the list of those giving to Hillary.  You are even more dillusional than you appear if you think she hasn't already sold out whatever sheread of values she had.  She is adopting populist rhetoric (especially at the debate)but she is not populist.

The progressive populist in the race is John Edwards.  Like I said, if he is not the Democratic nominee on February 5th it will be for one reason.  The media knows that Hillary vs. Barack = ratings.  

If you could magically press a button that would make the media evenly split it's coverage you wouldn't do it, because Hillary would lose.

You can talk about being "positive" all you want.  The Case for John Edwards is way stronger than the case for Hillary.  On values based grounds he is miles ahead of her.  And then there's that pesky issue of actually being able to win the election.

But if you're supporting Hillary you obviously aren't worrid about that.  Now go run along to Mark Penn so he can cherry pick polls for you.

Inside georgep's head..."Bill Democrat and President...Hillary Bill's Wife...Me Democrat...Me support Hillary"

One thing you might want to tell yourself georgie, you are a Clintonista, not a Democrat, and there is a big difference.


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

A bit over the top, but I'll excuse it for now.  Edwards supporters have a lot to be angry and frustrated about, which makes a childish rant almost understandable.      


by georgep on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Please don't wind him up. Sure, starting him off again makes Edwards look bad by association, but every word of his rants we accidentally read before we skip on makes all of us stupider by osmosis.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 03:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards Supporters United wrote: (3.00 / 1)

"Hillary has nothing to run on except her gender, her husband (notice how she pulled out her secret weapon, making Bill ambassador to the world, most Americans opposed the idea), and her applause line attacks on President Bush.  She is running as her husband agaisnt Bush and everyone can see through it.  I'm as anti Bush as it gets but come on Hillary, you can do better than that."
_________

Based on what you wrote, above, you have plunked yourself into the small margin of Democrats that exists within an already small subset of the whole. It is your choice to staunchly hold onto this view of Hillary. After all, it gives you a boilerplate response to throw back at anyone who supports or defends her.  And you, and the few others who share this view can be comforted by it -- because it guarantees, in your minds, the high probability that Hillary will fail.

Interestingly, you and I both seem to be Democrats.  I know I am and I presume you are.  And your posting name makes it evident that you support John Edwards.  

Did you know that within the Democratic Party there are a number of people who believe that John Edwards is running a shallow campaign that stigmitizes and exploits the poor, and that he makes far more ambitious use of his wife Elizabeth than Hillary makes of Bill?  In fact, if it weren't for Elizabeth (some people say), John Edwards would be polling in single digits rather than in low double digits?  

Which of these two analyses is more true?  Yours about Hillary?  Or the one I presented about Edwards?  If I went around posting the above comments about Edwards on various blogs, would you feel compelled to either correct me, or to tell me there is a great deal I am overlooking? And that some of the things I am saying are just not true?

You have to do a little more research.  Your  description of Hillary works for you because you have carefully chosen what you believe can be construed as negative and by saying it over and over again, you hope you will influence others to turn against her as well.  But you only influence the minority within an already small subset of Democrats - on blogs similar to this one - a very small universe.

My grandmother always told me to enlarge the place of my tent, even if it meant opening the pages of a book I never wanted to read. Study the people you oppose the most.  Nobody can afford to misinterpret them. The rant you just posted about Hillary is a losing strategy.  And for whatever reason, I find it repeated most often by Democrats who support John Edwards.  

You will obviously never like Hillary Clinton, but that is not relevant to this discussion, because I am not trying to convert you.  What is relevant is that you shortchange yourself by keeping your mind (your knowledge bank) locked.  And boy is it locked.


by samueldem on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 08:43:57 AM EST

Re: Edwards Supporters United wrote: (none / 0)

..and he is shortchanging his candidate.   It is a proven fact that "going negative" also tends to bring up the negatives of the candidate you are pushing for.  A constant drumbeat of negativity makes undecided folks wonder what makes it necessary.  Usually it is because you can't make a positive case for your own candidate, so you decided (desperately) to go negative against the candidate ahead.  


by georgep on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 10:35:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Supporters United wrote: (none / 0)

I'm not talking to undecided "folks" I'm calling you two idiots out on your shit.  If going negative is so bad then why did Howard Wolfson (he works for Clinton) go negative by accusing Edwards of attacking Clinton when he didn't?  Why did he lie about David Geffen's role in the Obama campaign.  I already listed enough positives about Edwards.  But there is nothing but negatives when it comes to the Clinton apologists.  You values nothing that has anything to do with the progressive movement or the long term well being of the party.  All you values is your sorry obsession with the first Democrat you heard of.

Maybe you two should get a life, instead of peddling Hillary talking points to people who (for the most part) don't buy it.  i'm done dealing with people who haven't (and cannot) respond to what I originally asked you.  Just like Hillary when you're asked a tough question you change the answer.  You might want to actually read what I wrote instead of effortlessly transforming into B.S. mode.

In the words of Ice Cube - Later....Fooo


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Supporters United wrote: (none / 0)

Sorry, but you give all Edwards supporters a bad name.  If that is what you are trying to do:  Congratulations!    :-)


by georgep on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Supporters United wrote: (none / 0)

Why because I actually deal with people like you and your baseless B.S.  There are numerous people on here that will put up with your crap.  I am simply not one of them.  Do I insult people sometimes? Yes.  But a lot of that is after they already insult my intelligence by thinking that they can say totally unfounded garbage (you are the worst offender when it comes to this) and not get challenged.  I challenge you on the facts, then you try to be all slick, then I get mean.  

One more time, imagine Hillary saying...
"If I knew all the facts before we attacked Iraq I wouldn't have backed it."

And there goes the general election!!!

Should her shrill voice matter? No. But should she be recieving an ungodly amount of free media because so many people hate her and have a strong reaction to her?  No.

You are not exactly the model Clinton supporter either.  I mean, she tries to get away with a lot but you take the art of b.s. that she has perfected and take it to a whole new level.

I just realized that you never answered the questions I asked you earlier.  I think it's because you know that your candidate is not doing as well as you thought she would.  You say that Edwards guys have a reason to be mad but he's the guy going up in the polls while she goes down.  He's the one beating all Republicans while Hillary only beats Sam Brownback by like 4 points.  That is terrible.  And then there's always those 4 pesky letters for you clinton people...I-O-W-A.

You can't have a "conversation" with me about the merits of each candidate so even after I list numerous reasons why I support Edwards you just revert to fantasy land.  Should I revert to calling you names.  No.  But clearly both of us have our habits.  

If she does win the nomination I hope that you enjoy your moment of bliss.  I'm sure you'll be happy.  I know what it's like to beleive that a candidate can do a lot of good for a lot of people.  I hope that's why you back Hillary.  I'm serious about you doing the dance of joy.  Have a par-tay.  I just don't think that the dance will last very long.  

I don't think that 4 years of giuliani,  mccain, romney, or thompson will be nothing to party about.

But if that does happen we know what georgep will do.  He'll be all over every blog, typing as fast as he can... Hillary 2012!


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 05:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Supporters United wrote: (none / 0)

Get off of it.  a big tent is one thing but there comes a point when you need to boot out those who are trying to burn it down.  my mind is not "locked", I have done my homweork, I don't have a childlike attatchment to the Clintons just because they are Democrats.  You can excuse your bblind allegiance anyway you want to.  Every values (and after all, isn't that what we are supposed to be about) argument favors Edwards, not Clinton.  If you knew what you were talking about you might be worth listening to.  Instead you sound like Dr. Phil mixed with Paul Begala.  Except you are drunk (on kool Aid), like Phil and irrelevant like (Begala).  

And if you think that the "subset" of Democrats who are sick oh Hillary's self-obsessed crap is
"small" then you are even more clueless than you makes yourslef out to be.

You Clintonistas just hate being called out on your baseless shit don't you?

You are as pathetic as georgep.  Why don;t you two idiots put on matching pantuits, clap along to "Don't stop thinking about tomorrow" and cackle with glee that you support the ongoing efforts to castrate the party.

There is truth to the big tent theory whentalking about inclusiveness but far too often spineless turds like yourself use it as an excuse to support the defenseless and self obsessed actions of a power hungry few.

How pathetic.


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

What's the story there?  Is it a case of bad outreach, or is he just getting squeezed out, between the black community's obvious reasons to like both Hillary and Obama?

Either way, even though I'm an Edwards supporter, I'm reluctant to contribute any more money until I know that they're aware of the problem and have some sort of plan to reach out to black voters.  Because 6% of the black vote won't win you the Democratic nomination.


by RT on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 09:49:24 AM EST

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

Perhaps equally disturbing is his weakness amongst voters making less than $30k. There's a lot of cross-over here with African-Americans, but if he can't reach either group with a candidacy tied to combatting poverty, he's got problems.

Any suggestions as to why this might be? Is this group harder to energise due to less time to spend on politics? Does his union base not extent to non-union workers? Is there an ethnic divide amongst unions hurting him with black voters?


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:22:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

He's a rich white guy. That's the problem. Sure he cares about the poor but there's always that doubt in the back of the mind of voters about whether the rich guy is simply using them.

Edwards is the rich guy, Obama is the elite black guy and HRC is a woman.

If Edwards had a long history of supporting the poor then perhaps he would be viewed differently but the change in strategy came quite recently and is connected to a presidential campaign so I think there is good reason for some scepticism.

Personally I like Edwards but if I was a low income voter I doubt I would trust him with my vote. At an emotional level the rich white lawyer is a vote loser in this instance, amongst this group of voters.


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

If Edwards had a long history of supporting the poor then perhaps he would be viewed differently but the change in strategy came quite recently and is connected to a presidential campaign so I think there is good reason for some scepticism.

Huh? The whole premise of his 2004 run was the Two Americas.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:16:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

I'll add that he ran a very populist campaign for Senate and had a record of supporting the homeless and underprivileged in NC before he ever ran for office.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

And still he has very limited support amongst low income voters and within the black community which rather proves my point. Edwards' identity, as viewed by these communities, is as a rich white lawyer. Now that may not be a particularly accurate reflection of him as a man or of him as a presidential candidate but it is the current state of play.


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:54:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

Sure, but it's nine months before the Iowa caucus.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

OT: Why did you troll rate my comment about Obama and Joe Anthony in another thread? It contained no personal attacks and nothing inflammatory other than a minority opinion. I think that's very weak of you.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Sun May 06, 2007 at 07:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

The vast majority of those making under $30K are low information voters or non-voters. I've talked with quite a few of us (I'm one myself) over the last few months in the course of organizing for Edwards, and most of them had no clue who was running for president. A couple of weeks ago, an African American woman actually told me that she was still hoping that Obama would jump into the race.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:15:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

You're missing his strengths.  Yes his current problem with blacks is troubling but with Clyburn's nephew and Sharpton dropping hints don't worry.  Even if he gets no endorsements he'll ahve momentum.  When blacks get to see him as often as they've seen HRC and Obama then things will change.  A lot of blacks backed him in CA after one speech.


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 05:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

What strengths? He's got a campaign which ought to appeal to the poor (conventional wisdom that the American working class is less supportive of government intervention than other working classes aside). That he's polling poorly amongst a significant segment of that demographic is a definite weakness, which alleged hints (can you provide links? - I must have missed them) from Sharpton (only really an opinion leader amongst New York's black population) and Clyburn's nephew (doesn't sound like a particularly notable figure from where I'm sitting) aren't yet dealing with.

Moreover those who backed him at the CDP are probably fairly politically involved, which is a segment of the population where Edwards does well. He's got to reach the only slightly politically involved too.

Your optimism may be laudable, but there's not much of an argument here beyond hope.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 08:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

1st in Iowa
Labor support in Nevada + momentum
3nd in polls in NH
already has one clyburn on board in and while blacks make up 55% of the vote they will move towards him some as the debate becomes more about electability and substance
The black vote will largely be split between Clintona nd Obama and with the other Clyburn a possibility and Sharpton saying Edwards has run the best campaign to say that the only arguement is hope shows that you put WAY too much faith in national polling that is made up of mostly casual Dems.  Yes he needs to do well among low-information voters but every time he gets media exposure his numbers rise with everybody.  Unlike Hillary whose fav ratings are dropping.

To say that all Edwards supporters have is hope shows that you assume that early national polls with loose screens are the end all and be all of primary politics.  And who was on top this time in 03?  A few polls said a little guy named Joe Lieberman.  Clinton is falling, both with Dems and against GOPers and with her fav ratings.  Obama is doing very well but he is scared to appear on MTP and the Hardball college tout, and regardless of what 405 SC college students told Survey USA the pundtits that are actually worth listening to though Obama tanked.  He no showed his appearance on Meet the Canddiate and he is STILL waiting for a health care plan to fall in his lap.  This won't effect low-information voters but all of the "WHere's the Beef" stories will.

His ties to K Street, his ties to Wall Street, he has pitfalls.

It's anybody's race, but if you are arguing that national polling that makes no effort to exclude non primary voters is reason to conclude that the Iowa frontrunner only has "hope", well someone might have put something in your tea and crumpets back in England.

Sorry me laddy but what you said is bullocks


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 09:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

Meant 2nd in New Hampshire


by Edwards Supporters United on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 09:28:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and blacks (none / 0)

I think the candidate and the message are a poor fit. It doesn't resonate. Sometimes a rich white person can connect with the poor to the extent that they believe him to be their candidate, while other times it just seems false, as though the politician is using them to win office.

Bobby Kennedy managed it but at the moment it doesn't seem as though John Edwards is being viewed by low income groups as "one of us".


by kundalini on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Chris, Mark Blumenthal of Pollster.com makes the case that Clinton's true poll numbers may actually be underreported, and that the tighter the likely voter screen is, the better she polls (at least in California, but I noticed that trend in other state polls as well.)  It has also been shown that those who are already paying VERY close attention to election coverage are the most likely group to give Clinton the nod.  

It is obvious that an exact assessment is hard to achieve, but would it not make sense to weigh for likelyhood of voting?   If you do that you not only look at how solid a candidate's support is -most polls show Edwards' and Clinton's stated support as somewhat more sold, more "hardened," than Obama's - but also historical primary voting patterns.   For instance, young voters never show up in huge numbers, those 55 and over make up by far the biggest voting block.  How do Hispanics vote in primaries, minorities?  What is the likelyhood of "Indepenedents" to show up in primaries?      I believe that if you start weighing by those factors (using historical patterns) you will find that Clinton's current support is higher than polled, because the groups where she does not do as well as in other groups are less likely to make it to the polls in the first place (young voters, Independents) or are not even allowed to vote in party primaries (Independents in many states)  while she does very well with those groups who also show up in droves (i.e. older voters.)    

It is unrealistic to assume that all of those who state that they are "likely" to vote in the primaries will actually show up.  While intentions are good, reality usually differs on primary day.   So, you adjust for "historical likelyhood patterns."  


by georgep on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:16:32 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

There is another important(?) demographic that Chris Bowers' should factor into Obama's polling numbers and that is Republicans. I have been reading a lengthy article in New Yorker Magazine about Obama today and the article includes a link to this website:

Republicans for Obama.  

http://www.republicansforobama.org/?q=ag gregator

I clicked through the site and it's valid and going strong.  It's been up since 2006.  


by samueldem on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:17:47 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

This is a very depressing post.  If HRC is the democratic nominee, I will definitely take advantage of the fact that my vote as a New Yorker makes no difference in the general presidential election and not vote for her.  


by LY of Brooklyn on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:21:25 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Madame President!


by ChicagoDude on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 11:35:43 AM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

First of all, population-wise, the majority of Clinton's base outside of New York is in Florida and California, neither of which is anywhere near the Northeast.

Secondly, when was New Jersey ever part of the Northeast? While you could make the argument that NY could be part of the Northeast, NJ is really pushing it. From the perspective of someone who grew up in the Northeast, the term refers primarily to New England. Hillary polls very well in the Mid Atlantic region, which includes NY.  
It's no surprise that Hillary polls well in CT, because it's an extension of New York, and in MA, because it's run (into the ground) by an establishment Dem supermajority. You yourself say that Clinton doesn't poll well in NH, which actually is part of the Northeast. Like NH, VT and ME don't care for HRC. VT especially hates her for "triangulating" with NY's big industry, i.e. agitating to let the International Paper plant in Ticonderoga, NY burn tires, when the wind very often blows into VT's otherwise clean air. VT, NH, and ME are also largely rural, and HRC can't win rural, period.

Rather than using the phrase "Northeast Base", I'd make the argument that Hillary only polls well in predominantly urban states with a significant Democratic establishment/rich donor/major corporate presence, while she generally does poorly in predominantly rural states with few large corporations and/or states that pride themselves on their individuality, hence her inability to win Northern New England or pretty much anywhere in the West outside of California/Nevada. It certainly goes without saying that most of HRC's base comes from New York or extensions of New York (CT, FL, etc.). Even a lot of the HRC supporters in CA, NV, MA, etc. are going to be either from NY originally or representing NY companies elsewhere.

That said, the states that I would've expected HRC to be ahead in that aren't included in this poll are rather obvious in their exclusion - RI and DE in particular are states that I would expect HRC to carry in her sleep, Biden notwithstanding. Both are predominantly urban, with a strong establishment base. DE in particular should be Hillary's, assuming that the Delaware Fortune 500s controlling Biden decide (as they will) that Biden  can't win and can do more favors for them where he is. I'd expect MD, PA, and DC to be other places where Hillary does very well. She might even be surprisingly competitive in VA thanks to NoVa. Where the establishment's power lines end, however, is where Hillary's power ends.

What makes HRC's alleged "dominance" even shakier is that Obama's niche in the race overlaps half of her demographics, and Obama will do well in a lot of the states that she currently claims as her "base". I could see Obama coming within striking distance in at least MA, CA, and FL, to name three. I think he'll actually win MA. HRC also has to deal with Dodd in CT and Biden in DE - even though she'll likely win both states in the end, the hometown candidate is going to leech some of her delegates. Add this to the fact that there's no way she wins outside of the aforementioned major urban states and has already lost one of her best urban strongholds (Chicago) to Obama thanks to the dynamics of the race, and she's in a world of trouble.

Contrary to what other posters on this thread have asserted re: Edwards not having a base, I see Edwards as being the candidate most likely to appeal to the rural vote, which shouldn't be underestimated. There are way more rural voters in this country than there are black voters, and they're probably more likely to vote in the primaries. With the black vote split between HRC and Obama and a more or less unified rural vote behind Edwards with halfway decent turnout, Edwards could be more competitive than people seem to realize.


by gesundheit on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:02:11 PM EST

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

Not according to the vast majority of national and state polls.  If this undercurrent of support were there, it would show up in the polls somehow.   Even the current discussion of how to read all the polls is only "nibbling at the edges."  In other words, the question is whether Clinton's lead is "really" about 8% or whether Obama or Clinton are about even.  Edwards is very far behind.  20+ percent deficits are not explained by some uncounted rural voters.


by georgep on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

My view is that the national race has tightened.

Rasmussen, Gallup and WSJ all show a tightened race of 5 pts or less.

I expected that this would happen as more and more people pay attention to the campaign.

I expect movement between Clinton and Obama as the race progresses.

Their will be un-expected events that all of the candidates will have to respond to on the national scene as this year moves forward.


by BDM on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State Polling Insights (none / 0)

I think the odds for the general scenario that Chris outlined (over by Feb. 6, national poll leader wins) at about 75%.  However, I believe the campaigns need to plan for a longer fight.


by howardpark on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 04:05:44 PM EST


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