The Outreach

HillaryHub is a start at having an outreach portal by a Presidential candidate. All news and information about Hillary from the web. It's nothing all that great but at least its a sign-of-life-in-outreach on their website; and a bit of strength in recognition that some of the posts they are linking out to contain criticism of Clinton in the posts and comments.

The community on Edwards blog is probably the most populated. To their credit, the bloggers on the site have their own dialogue happening with the blogosphere, as evidenced by a recent post by Darrin Barringer, the campaigns Field Director, Getting the Scoop From State Blogs, but the non-political social networking sites get a lot more presence than the political blogosphere does on their website.

There's nothing happening in the way of outreach to Democratic-leaning blogs on Barack Obama's  website that I can see. Nothing. It's a neat closed-walled website out of 2003 with fancier appliances. It says, 'we are doing this alone' at best, or 'you don't exist' to the netroots blogosphere on the left--but don't fret, you do get-have a unique number on Barack Obama's ever-expanding list.

Chris Dodd and Bill Richardson are getting there. Dodd's squad does a regular What They're Saying feature on their blog, and has well integrated getting staffers posting onto their blog. Richardson as well has a regular roundup, and seems to be the only candidate that actually has a blogroll.

That latter point is sorta striking, it's almost as if the candidate websites are afraid of associating with the netroots too closely, or in the case of Obama, at all. Perhaps they view the netroots blogosphere on the Democratic side as an entity to compete with, instead of cooperate with, for winning. Or maybe it's just that they are afraid of being associated with the partisanship and wild west of the online progressive movement. That's a sign of weakness on the behalf of our candidates, so Clinton's is a positive step in the right direction.

For the sake of comparison, I've been following the French elections a bit, and the amount of outreach being done by the Royal campaign seems impressive. Integrating google maps into their events; their vlog, and Segoland. I don't read french, but the latter looks like a blogosphere map of the supporting blogs throughout the nation, with a lot of participatory action looking like it's happening.

Among our top-tier, it's becoming impossible to imagine Obama doing anything of the sort in order to form a partisan alliance that he would need to win in 2008, but that Clinton or Edwards are at least moving in that direction.

I know there are Obama fans here who feel the need to come in defense of their candidate. That's fine. I find his non-existent online outreach strategy very pre-2003, and you are free to defend it. Just don't mimic the latest about how Obama is the new Reagan, because the latter knew how to work with his base.

Update [2007-4-27 22:2:34 by Jerome Armstrong]:Oh, wait. I take it back. Barack "web" Obama twitters!!!!



Display:


Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

My only question would be whether it's accurate to equate the netroots with the "base" of the Democratic party or even the progressive wing of the Democratic party.  

Don't get me wrong -- the netroots are important and that influence is growing, but the online communities you're referencing don't make up a majority of any base that Obama or the other candidates need in order to win in 2008.


by HSTruman on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:17:53 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 0)

Jerome is correct here.  Reagan was incredibly tied into the New Right direct mail structures that opposed the Panama Canal Treaty, and those people moved him into office and helped him govern.  The New Right organizers were not the base of the party, but they were the grasstops that represented part of the base.  

Similarly, we are not the base of the party, we are however grasstops representing part of the base.  It's foolish to overestimate our importance, but it's also foolish to assume we don't represent anyone but a few people whose hobby is internet politics.


by Matt Stoller on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

Obama is incredibly tied into the progressive meet up structures that supported Howard Dean in 2004, and those people may help move him into office and help him govern.  His website is the most community based and actually gets people involved, as evidenced by the thousands of meet ups that occurred at the end of Q1.

It is foolish to think the blogs don't represent anyone, but it's also foolish to think that the readers of those blogs need a candidate to list their favorite blog on a blogroll to support them.
 


by BobbyWallace on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

true, but many of the former Deaniacs (none / 0)

have become involved with their local One Corps chapters and are supporting Edwards.

My perception from talking to the people I know who caucused for Dean in 2004 is that they are divided between Edwards and Obama, with a lot still undecided. I don't think Obama is dominating this group.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 11:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

I agree with you -- I just didn't say it as well.  


by HSTruman on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 2)

...Bringing new voters into the party. Obama is doing that at an exceptional rate. That is far more important than preaching to the choir and kissing netroots ass...


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:21:15 PM EST

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Bringing new voters into the party

Really?  Do you have evidence on this?  I can believe it but I'm not sure why we think this is the case.  


by Matt Stoller on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 4)

The facebook/myspace numbers are proof that Obama is bringing in new supporters that might otherwise not show any interest in the Democratic primaries. Many are young enough that they have to be new, as they were not previously eligible to vote.

The real point is they have not yet voted. So Obama has not really brought in new voters - and it would appear that the supporters he is bringing into the fold are part of the demographic least likely to actually show up at the polls.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Based on some articles a few weeks ago Obama has been using Daschle's database and network for donations to reach the right DC and corporate contrbutors. Are there any figures on how many of the MySpace, Facebook, etc. groups who have actually contributed to the campaign or are active in any way as volunteers?


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:40:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

You are suggesting that Obama's wide donor base is the result of a pre-existing establishment network, and not the online social network?

I do find it hard to believe that many 18-25 year-olds are actually donating or otherwise participating. I say this as someone who has just barley grown out of that demo.
But certainly some portion of his facebook/myspace supporters do support him in tangible ways - just hard to say how many.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

"I do find it hard to believe that many 18-25 year-olds are actually donating or otherwise participating."

Why?! Maybe because you're used to 18-25 being BORED TO DEATH by conventional candidates who don't speak to them at all.


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

True enough - but they also have very little money. And a lot of debt. And many live in insulated campuses, have overly-involved social lives, are on drugs and struggling to do well in school.

Oh, wait, maybe that was just me :-D


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Hey, that's me and most of my friends too. :-) Trust me, we can find time to talk about politics and $5 to toss at a super-inspirational politician.


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:28:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

I know it's not a whole lot, but at my school with 2000 kids, we collected about $130 for Obama...and that was just through the sale of buttons--I know others have given on their own as well.  People were willing to give $5 without a problem.


by conantd on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

25% of Howard Dean's money came from people under age 25.  (Can't find the source, but I've had tht in my trainings for three years now.)


by karichisholm on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 01:11:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Corrrection: 25% Howard Dean's donors were under age 25.  People, not money.


by karichisholm on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 01:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Well, if you look at the "Barack Obama (One Million Strong for Barack)" Facebook Group http://cornell.facebook.com/group.php?gi d=2231653698 they have 324,667 members.  They also have a website at my.barackobama.com for fundraising, http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/ view/main/millionstrong, and they have only 585 people that have contributed.


by elias on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 03:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

You mentioned the number of contributors who have contributed directly through the Million Strong fundraising page.  Obviously lots of these members have donated to other pages, outside of the context of Million Strong, etc.  You also neglect to mention that the Million Strong facebook group raised over $16,000, which ain't bad for a bunch of college kids.
For examples of Obama getting new people involved in the process:
  1.  He had a hundred thousand donors in the first quarter, more than Hillary and Edwards combined.
  2.  At his rally in Atlanta, over ten thousand people registered to vote, since he made it a prerequisite for attending the rally.

One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 04:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

I would guess the corporate backers and lobbyist money (lobbyists's wives more technically) to Obama comes through Daschle's database and a lot of the small donors were probably also donors to Dean. Unless some candidate has some specific figures on MySpace, Facebook, etc. I would have doubts they are a big part of the money.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

this thing about the corporate backers of obama is so overplayed..now we are to believe there are a ton of lobbyists wifes involved too? and daschle now is evil eh!

cite some evidence or be done with this...


by serge in dc on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Obama probably has more corporate backing than Clinton. Penny Pritzker is the national finance chair for Obama (she contributed to Bush in 2004). Her family has a $15 billion fortune. Warren Buffett, George Soros, and others are also contributors.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news _theswamp/2007/01/another_billion.html

Obama has been soliciting contributions from the wives of lobbyists and getting "policy" and "campaign" support from the lobbyists themselves.

Mike Williams, the director of government relations at Credit Suisse Securities, said of the network of lobbyists supporting Obama: "I would imagine that it's as large as the Clinton list," in reference to rival presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who is an entrenched favorite of the Washington Democratic establishment.

He said that while lobbyists cannot give money to Obama, they can give "policy" and "campaign support." Indeed, K Street denizens have rare policy and national campaign expertise.

Williams is actively building support for Obama among lobbyists and the corporate clients they represent. While other Obama supporters have described him as a leading activist, Williams demurs: "I wouldn't want to put my position as a spearhead." He acknowledges that the gains Obama is making among Washington's Democratic establishment are hard to see because Obama's K Street supporters have kept a low profile. As a result, Obama's K Street network is a stealthy operation.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obam as-k-street-project-2007-03-28.html


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

this is really a smear..right here above me folks. not a right wing smear either for those of you keeping count.

we are expected to believe that because people who have a lot of money have contributed to obama that means they have contributed a lot to obama!? what a joke!

i THINK there is a limit is there not? (rhetorical question) you mention a few millionaires..how much could they have contributed together??? 2300X4=10K or so.. how much did he raise? 24 million??? whats the percentage there??

.000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00001% or so?

lets say soros- who i love by the way!- gave obama 2300 and had 10 people give him money.. his underlings lets say..not that we know that but lets think that just to humour me... 23000$

so how much is that

.00000000000000001%???

then we have a quote from someone i have no clue who saying that he gets money from k street... but its STEALTH...ooooooohhhhhhhhh

seriously, this post above me sickens me... LAME...

we KNOW obama gets far more money money from small contributors through the internet than anyone else..

THAT IS THE FACT

this meme that obama is in the pocket of lobbyists is going nowhere... its not proven by his quarterly finance campaign finance report so i kindly request you refrain from pulling stuff out of your you know what.


by serge in dc on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

It is not a right wing smear. If I recally correctly it was reported on this site and many others some weeks ago.

Clinton and Obama have most of the backing of corporate interests and lobbyists in this race. That is a reality of politics.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:14:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

it IS simply poppycock to say that because an obama contributor has a lot of money that means that contributor is giving obama a ton of money..

it is also baloney to say that obama is taking a lot of money from lobbyists or what have you without any supporting evidence... and then say "it was reported here" or what have you...

we had a debate on this issue a few weeks ago and it emerged that obama had taken less as a  percentage of donations from wall street than edwards.. he had taken something like 400K from people who reported working in wall street (which does not even mean wall street gave him the money)..it was just a baloney charge posted by one of the usual gang of edwards maniacs.. you know the ones..the are probably two or three diaries (recommended) by them right now..the tarheels the vox populis those guys.

i mean 400k out of 24 million is nothing!...

then there's the whole rubinomics charge.. so what  and i don't even know if rubin supports obama..but so what even if he did?? rubin presided over the longest lasting growth cycle of the US economy in its HISTORY..now we are going to say rubin was no good??  are we going to run away from the economic prosperity of the 90s under bill clinton??? give me a break.


by serge in dc on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:17:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Obama apointed someone with a $15 billion fortune to head fundraising for his campaign. That is about as clear of a signal as you could possibly give to the business community. There is nothing wrong with that. That is how politics works. The business community likes Clinton. They like Obama.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

Penny Pritzker doesn't have a $15 billion dollar fortune, her family does.  She, individually, will be worth $1.8 billion or so dollars once the money is divied up among family members.

Secondly, since you believe her appt. as his finance chief speaks for itself, are you also among those who think Edwards haircut is a meaningful subject for political conversation?  Or that President Clinton's supposed tarmac haircut was a fitting subject for the nightly news to cover?  This kind of back and forth is useless and stupid and only serves to give the Rethugs a shot at what they rightly should not have a chance of for a generation.


by DTB in TN on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 12:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

If you think having a finance chair who is a union-busting hotel owner and former Bush donor is as trivial as getting an expensive haircut in the grand scheme of things, I really don't know what to tell you.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 12:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

anyways no hard feelings..i'll check out your blog..later and thanks for the time.


by serge in dc on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 2)

If you can believe it, then why do you question 'why we think this is the case'?

I only have anecdotal evidence... friends and family who previously were not politically engaged... who have contributed and become excited by Obama's campaign. I'm also judging by the superior numbers (in reference to small donors)Obama had in Q1 and in April.

That's enough for me. I've never seen this kind of excitement for any politician, EVER. The netroots are not the be-all, end-all of the Democratic base.


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 2)

Matt, this is the case,Obama said it himself..More then half of the folks that attends his rallies are not registered..He's the only candidate that's bringing fresh blood into the party.

If that's true that a large numbers that attends his rallies are unregistered, then this could be a huge weapon for him because this could badly skew polls number..Polls are using old electorate and with new blood, it could be huge.


by JaeHood on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 1)

I hate to sound like a broken record - but how many of those people do you really think will vote? Hell, how many will even actually register?

I don't mean to dismiss Obama's support (I find it impressive and inspiring) but I am wary of what it will really mean come election day.

Again, I say this as someone who is young and who has seen firsthand how many well-informed, educated, motivated people simply do not show up on election day. And everyone says "Obama is different" - but I would argue GWB and his war has had a much greater impact on getting people involved politically. And that only made a small difference in 2004 and 2006 (among the youth vote).


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 2)

"but I would argue GWB and his war has had a much greater impact on getting people involved politically."

I tend to agree with that. And who are they looking to for an alternative? Obama.


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)

Is the challenge of the Obama campaign to maintain this excitement, grow its support and make sure it translates to the primaries?

Absolutely.

It's the challenge of all campaigns.


by eskimo on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 1)

Obama stated himself that his campaign were registering those folks...And in my opinion, if you are willing to go see a candidate under frigid weather and rainy days, why won't you go vote for him...Let's remember that everyone that attends Obama's rallies  are heavily tapped..What i mean by that is, they have hundreds of workers working the crowds and taking addresses, phone numbers and registering them..Also, to go to an oabama $25 campaign raally, you have to give your address and phone number...All those people are in Obama's donor list..This is why is donor list is so large and he's able to tap it not only for money, but to recruit vvolunteer etc etc...


by JaeHood on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

I am getting the impression that every Obama rally is held on the rainiest, coldest days in obscure rural enclaves.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 1)

I'm sorry, but "rallies" creep me out a bit.  I'm a communications/theatre/film major.  I studied how crowds can be moved for good or bad. I've done Shakespeare. I've done Brecht who wrote plays in Germany in the 1930's.   Hopefully, these "rallies" will lead to thoughtful and positive actions.  I hope the participants leave more excited than when they arrived about changing the world as opposed to excited about a man.  I have never put "my faith in princes".  But I have sometimes, rarely, seen someone willing to do the heavy lifting.  Someone born to do our dirty work like Atticus Finch in "To Kill a Mockingbird". Someone who will take on the  task of those who have had no voice for so many years.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:22:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

In Middle TN in 2004, we registered upwards of 50,000 new voters.  Of those new voters 75-80$% voted (depending on county).  I think you are using an old model in your predictions concerning who will and won't vote.  Those percentages, by the way, I got straight from the mouths of the county election administrators (and their post-election reports).


by DTB in TN on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 12:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

I've worked on campaigns since 1960 -- I've never met a candidate who won by get the unregistered registered. I've even run a campaign where that was our main strategy -- because we knew we were going to lose and the only thing we could "win" was hastening the process of changing the demographics of the electorate. It's great work, but it ain't about winning.


Can It Happen Here?
by janinsanfran on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:25:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (3.00 / 1)

How about approaching 150,000 donors and the ability to consistently draw 10,000 to 20,000 to rallies 10 months before a vote.  The guy drew 1,000 in Muscatine, Iowa which has a population of 23,000.  This candidacy is three months old!  Obama is building a movement that is unprecedented and dwarfs anything that Howard Dean ever did and more important, far surpasses what any other current candidate is doing or I would submit- can do.  That represents real direct democracy and people power.  You are too cheaply impressed by a candidate posting a blog on kos which I suspect is the genesis of this post.  Do you appreciate what is going on here?


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 11:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Only Assessment that Matters... (none / 0)

To refresh your memory Kerry raised around $235 million in 2004. There were about 475,000 donors under $200 in 2004 to various candidates.

How many of the 150,000 donors are Tom Daschle's network. Do I remember correctly that he gave Obama access to 80,000 donors?


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 11:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are misleading people (3.00 / 1)

Kerry had 475k in his donor list during "the primary race"????...That's B.S...Maybe he had it for the general including the amount of money you stated...or it could be long after everyone knew he would be the nominee, but there's no way in the world kerry had that much support during the start of the primary...Obama is the only candidate to get that much support so early on and he's still growing it, but not in the primary battle.

Whoever the democrats is, will probably get on board "every single democrtic donors"...Right now, they are taking side and Obama is ready to surpass the amount of donors Dean had during the '04 entire primary process and we're not even deep in Q2 period yet.


by JaeHood on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 05:54:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are misleading people (none / 0)

Kerry had very little support from small donors during the primaries and was the target of many anti-Kerry diaries. He became the nominee.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 11:29:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are misleading people (none / 0)

That's because Dean crumbled,and with "The scream" he was painted as an "out of control screaming hot liberal that's very unhinged" and a large amount of his support jumped off the wagon because the wagon was burning.

Dean would have won if it wasn't for the scream...I don't think he lost inspite of all his support...I believe the scream pretty much chased away a segment of his base.

You can't compare Obama with Dean.Obama is much more pollish then Dean and i can't picture Obama doing the scream or anything similar.Obama can't be painted as "too liberal" or "too out of control".


by JaeHood on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 12:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are misleading people (none / 0)

Exactly.  I liked Dean, but thought in the end he would not make it through.  He did turn off alot of people, but he did engage alot of people.  Obama is nothing like Dean.  He is way, more charismatic and is way more polished.  Just because someone may be in politics 20 years don't mean that how they convey themselves on television (let's keep it real we are in this medium) will not translate if people have the "likability" factor towards you.  If anything, Howard Dean, is the "Grandfather of Internet Campaigning", period.  His model is what everyone else is following now, but only enhanced it.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 02:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are misleading people (none / 0)

And keep in mind that the Dean scream never happened. The room was very noisy, people (including a friend of mine) in the second row couldn't hear him at all, and "the scream" was on a noise-canceling microphone the "reporters" helpfully equipped him with.

"The scream" was then helpfully played several zillion times in every possible media venue to portray Dean as angry or nutty without any mention of the circumstances.

Diane Sawyer later apologized, but no one else I ever heard of did.


by joyful alternative on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 08:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

B.S. (none / 0)

If you could look at a cross section of his supporters you'd see some Deaniacs mixed with some of the younger voters that Kerry did effectively energize in '08.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What are you talking about (none / 0)

I assume you mean "Kerry did effectively energize in '04"

Tell that to my 15 (college-aged)friends who went to Springfield with me to see Obama announce his candidacy. FOUR CARS FULL OF COLLEGE STUDENTS, EARLY IN THE MORNING ON A RIDICULOUSLY COLD DAY. Out of the 15, 3 (including me)of them voted in 2004 despite the fact that they were all of voting age.


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you talking about (none / 0)

3 out of 15 voting is about what can be expected. Large crowds, a gazillion people on MySpace, etc. do not win primaries. We saw that in 2004.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That doesn't make any sense (none / 0)

3 out of 15 voting can be expected amongst a group of people going to see a presidential candidate speak? I think not.

Let me be clear, these were people who didn't care about politics. These are people who are attending local and on-campus meetings to find out how they can help the Obama campaign. These are people who suddenly have become excited about what's happening in politics and government.

Do you know what they're not excited about? The rest of the Democrats... and BLOGS. As much as I've talked up the blogosphere and tried to tear down the MSM, they still don't give a shit.

I don't know what crowds you were in, but I don't recall John Kerry or any other candidate having crowds of 10 - 20k.

Maybe Clinton and Edwards shiny new blogrolls will get them some extra votes, but somehow, I doubt it.


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't make any sense (none / 0)

If I can offer an anecdote...

I attended anti-war protests religiously leading up to the War. Sometimes with groups of 3 or 4, sometimes with groups of a dozen. Looking back, it was myself and maybe one or two friends who were enthusiastic about these things. We would go no matter what. Everyone else, usually the majority of our group, were only there because we encouraged them to come. They could take it or leave it.

Those are the people that I argue make up a big chunk of Obama event attendees, and those are the people who, in the end, will not vote. To be blunt - showing up at a rally really ain't that big a deal.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't make any sense (3.00 / 2)

Would you go see kucinich speak on a freezing day because your friends is encouraging you to go??.I think you are crazy...Obama's supporters are by far the most excited out there and we all know that people that are most passionate about their candidate, will be the one showing up...Hillary and Edwards fans arent as excited about their candidacy then Obama's supporters.


by JaeHood on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:23:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't make any sense (none / 0)

Aren't you the one who said:

but I would argue GWB and his war has had a much greater impact on getting people involved politically.

You're ignoring that the general public is much more engaged than they were in 2003 and you're ignoring the fact that Obama's popularity and big crowds are beyond unprecedented.

Will all of those rally attendees vote in the primary? No, of course not. Were all of the attendees even Obama fans... probably not all of them. Will the excitement over Obama's campaign compel a whole lot of new voters to support him at the primary polls... I think so.

Dean made me a primary voter. I could have sat back and waited for the general, but I was determined to see Dean as the nominee because I was so impressed. Obama will do the same for a whole new crowd. As a side note -- these new voters don't care who comes out with their health-care plan first.


by potus2020 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:25:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't make any sense (none / 0)

"As a side note -- these new voters don't care who comes out with their health-care plan first."

That is damn true, and they probably don't care about most of our criticisms of the candidates. We are just paying way too much attention (by which I mean, just the right amount of attention).


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't make any sense (none / 0)

In 2004 there was no Facebook, MySpace, etc. The only online system that existed then was Meetup. I worked on the Clark campaign. Howard Dean had a massive number of people signed up for Meetup and many of them actually attended the local Meetup meetings. He also attracted large crowds of young people. Most of the people we had in the Clark Meetups were older and many of them had at least some level of political experience. Kerry and Edwards had far fewer people in their Meetups. I don't think the Obama crowds and number of people signed up will translate into primary victories for Obama anymore than it did for Dean in 2004 because they do not represent the demographic groups that actually vote and decide the primaries.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:36:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no myspace or facebook in the poitical world. (none / 0)

they still existed.

-C.


by neutron on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't make any sense (none / 0)

I disagree.  When people start "donating" to a campaign, they have put vested interest in that candidate and they "will" come out to vote.

You are comparing Obama's campaign to Dean's, which is strategically different.  He is making people engage by doing their own house parties, communicating through his website, etc.

When you have 5000 house parties on the last day of the quarter, and people are actually showing up?  There is something going on out there.

Finally, Dean's camp was not fiscally responsible when it came to the "real push" in Iowa.  They spent their monies recklessly, and could not anty up when they needed to.  Big difference with the Obama campaign.  Look for Obama to bring in another 18-20M quarter two, easily.  His folks are engaged.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't make any sense (none / 0)

I think the campaigns are very similar. Dean did all of those things too in his campaign. He attracted a large share of young voters as Obama is doing now.
Going back nearly 40 years ago Gene McCarthy also attracted large groups of young people in his 1968 campaign. It is not any closer today to being a formula to win primaries than it was 40 years ago because those are not the groups that vote in large numbers in Democratic primaries.  
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Difference... (none / 0)

Obama is engaging people who have not even "cared" to vote or believe in the process.  I am seeing older people who are giving "money" to his campaign that have never done that before.  No matter what happens, Obama is bringing not just young, but people who have been disenfranchised by the political process.  If Hillary gets this nod, she will need Obama, no mistakes about it.  He is fresh, young, youthful, inspring and is a walking ATM MACHINE.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kerry (3.00 / 0)

Kerry couldn't energize a light bulb.

Young (new) voters voted against Bush, not for Kerry.  And high youth turnout was due to the work of a lot of new groups operating outside of the party, not by any remarkable outreach on the part of the Kerry campaign.  


Youth to Power
by Mike Connery on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 10:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry (none / 0)

Oh, yes, it was so easy to persuade people not to vote for Bush, but getting them to vote for Kerry instead of staying home was very hard, mostly beyond my persuasive skills.


by joyful alternative on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 08:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's my metric as well (none / 0)

While Reagan had to win over conservative Democrats, our nominee must keep the independent voters (who aren't tied to interest groups) from 2006 in our column. Kerry got 50% of indies in 2004, but it was bumped up to 60% in last year's midterms. As important as turning out the base is--especially in midterms--swing voters have twice the impact, since a switch of their vote to our side is a net gain of two votes.


by eskimo on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is more to the base than this lot (none / 0)

Maybe you're making the case that our eventual nominee needs a bit of Mark Warner magic.


by mihan on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:21:31 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 4)

No blogroll = fear of people saying "fuck" in blog comments.


by MNPundit on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:26:17 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Agreed. Not an irrational fear, but an unfortunate one. What candidate wants a 70-year-old grandmother visiting their site and finding "Fuck HRC and the DLC!" posted for the world to see?


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:39:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Also re those candidate websites: I looked up all their stances on closing Guantanamo yesterday. I think I am not exagerrating when I say ONLY Edwards and Richardson include a search function. The rest of them don't want you to be able to find what they think unless they are pushing it at you. Big problem.


Can It Happen Here?
by janinsanfran on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

I suspect that candidates will get better with outreach as the campaign marches on.  When comparing to the French candidates, remember that this is the time of their general election.  We are still a year and a half away.  


by Winston Smith on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:28:54 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Did you see how they had an 84% turnout?  That's amazing.  Yet people in America still make fun of the French.  I'd venture to say that if 84% of America's voters came out to vote, Democrats would win in a walk.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

I was in Peru just after their elections.  The turn-out rate is near 100%.  I asked some friends if they voted in the election and they looked shocked.  Apparently, its a crime not to vote in Peru.

By the way, last time I was in the Peruvian Amazon, I saw an actual tree full of parrots.  Man, was that GAY!


by Winston Smith on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 10:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

"I saw an actual tree full of parrots.  Man, was that GAY!"

OMG, I laughed my ass off reading that.  Only YOU would have seen an actual real-life metaphor!  My partner wondered what the hell was so funny when I read that just now.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 02:01:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

I was wondering if you'd notice that comment.  I remember it well, and to explain why, I'll tell a story, if you'll indulge me.  (I think the thread is mostly dead anyway)

Maybe put this in the "Some Cliches Are True" file, I think there is a "gay," sort of exaggeratedly feminine, persona that is universal in human society.  I dont mean to imply that I think all gays act in a stereotypical way, but some gay men do, and I have seen it all over the world.  

It first occurred to me that it was a constant thing in human culture in college.  My roommate was really flaming, and when we were college roommates, I was had to translate Lysistrata, an ancient Greek play written like 430BC.  One of the characters was an effeminate man, (mocked in staunchly bisexual ancient Athens, not for having sex with men, but for "acting gay.")  It was hard to translate his lines, until I realized that he was written with an ancient Greek lisp, just like the lisp my roommate had, and Dana Carvey had in that SNL skit, the Effeminate Heterosexual.  

I just assumed it was mostly a western culture thing, but it definately transcends that.  And it seems to be unrelated to the actual behavior of women in society.  I mean, I have seen it in the middle east, where I never saw a woman act that "gay."  I also saw it in asia and polynesia.  I remember a Samoan boy living on a small island who constantly played with a bright silk scarf, and was totally "gay."

So in the Amazon jungle, I work with a group that develops public health infrastructure, and one time I was in an indian village way up some little tributary, to identify vaccination needs.  One boy, maybe 15 stood out, because he had the identical persona.  This was a kid who never went shopping, saw TV, or ever used an electric light bulb, and man, he was just flaming gay.  I noticed that none of the women in the village acted like he did.  

Well, being an indigenos teenager, he didn't have a lot of opportunity to show off his gayness, but as Nathan Lane said in the 'BirdCage' : "One does want a hint of color."  So he had caught and hand-reared a parrot chick, and wore it like an accessory.  It was a memorable image, a village of Amazonian indians, with very subdued and quiet men and women, totally upstaged by a "gay" teenage boy, wearing a vivid emerald green and peach parrot.  

I did actually see a "tree full of parrots," but to be honest, it didnt strike me as particularly gay.  But that kid, with a literal limp wrist, lisp, and drama queen stance in the middle of jungle, was about the gayest thing I ever saw.  

Again, I dont mean to come off sounding dismissive or to stereotype people, but when you said that you were "gay as a tree full of parrots," I could not get that image out of my mind.


by Winston Smith on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 03:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

ha, great story.  Are you sure the boy you saw was not Sanjaya?  hee hee.

The queeniness in gay culture I find kind of cute.  What's funny is that I am perhaps a "6" on Kinsey's scale.  However, queeny I am decidedly not.  

Reminds me of an episode of the Golden Girls (okay, that's queeny).  Dorothy and Blanche were inadvertantly on a local morning show at Rose's behest.  But it was, unbeknownst to them, a show on lesbians.  So they were asked out of the "couple" Blanche and Dorothy, "which one plays the man in the relationship?"  Which Blanche replied:  "I am the little homemaker, if that's what you mean."  And then Dorothy replied (with that trademark pause that makes Bea Arthur so funny):  ".....And I'm the one who takes out the garbage."  One of the funniest scenes in comedy ever.  

Let's just say that I am the one who takes out the garbage in the relationship.  (sorry this is off-topic)


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 01:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another clue that ,,, (none / 0)

HillC ROCKS.

HillC in TMF House!!

... okay I'm a little giddy today what wid my girl winnin' the debate and all


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:31:35 PM EST

Re: Another clue that ,,, (none / 0)

not accoridng to South Carolina voters.....or any other poll I saw but you have Rush Limbaugh on your side congrats...


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Spin, Spun (none / 0)

You almost done?

Whats Obama going to do when two cities git hit?  Refresh my memory.  Is he going to talk with is hands in that highfalutin' language about the audacity of hope?  Or is he going to unleash the nukes?


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:42:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Spin, Spun (none / 0)

you want to attack Obama using right wing frames go ahead but don't epect to win any converts here. Obama or Edwards for that matter aren't using well vetted lines designed to meet some "national security " meme the right wing pundits judge us by. Hillary won't even tell us when she thought the Iraq war was wrong to fight much less apoligize for her vote, Edwards screwed up but atl,east he has the guts to admit it unlike Hillary's bullshit have it both ways non-answer.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm trying to play nice (none / 0)

But the fact is that soccor moms are not going to vote for someone they view as soft, and college students are not going to vote in large enough numbers to carry the day by themselves.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right wing frames? (none / 0)

He said it, I didn't.   Obama is a big boy.  He needs to live by his words.  According to him he may do something if or cities are hit.  Or he may just "hope" we don't get hit again.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why don't we read what Obama said (3.00 / 2)

Well, the first thing we'd have to do is make sure that we've got an effective emergency response, something that this administration failed to do when we had a hurricane in New Orleans.

And I think that we have to review how we operate in the event of not only a natural disaster, but also a terrorist attack.

The second thing is to make sure that we've got good intelligence, a., to find out that we don't have other threats and attacks potentially out there, and b., to find out, do we have any intelligence on who might have carried it out so that we can take potentially some action to dismantle that network.

But what we can't do is then alienate the world community based on faulty intelligence, based on bluster and bombast. Instead, the next thing we would have to do, in addition to talking to the American people, is making sure that we are talking to the international community.

Because as already been stated, we're not going to defeat terrorists on our own. We've got to strengthen our intelligence relationships with them, and they've got to feel a stake in our security by recognizing that we have mutual security interests at stake.

Isn't that exactly how we would have wanted Bush to act after 9/11? Instead of freezing in a classroom and hiding in a bunker in Nebraska...instead of saying the air in NYC was safe...instead of misleading the country about Iraq intelligence...and instead of alienating or allies.

Tell me where you disagree!

For all the talk about Obama opponents being concerned about specifics and details, you sure don't give a damn about what he actually said, preferring to buy into the same establishment bullshit that you profess to disdain!

What a phony.


by eskimo on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:30:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right wing frames? (none / 0)

In the words of Stanley Baldwin, "The bomber will always get through. The only defense is in offense, which means that you have to kill more women and children more quickly that the enemy if you want to save yourselves." An attitude which he shares with many of our foremost warbloggers.

Call me squeamish, but I'd rather our leaders think before they create another Dresden or Coventry.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 04:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So... (3.00 / 1)

on hypothetical judgment, Hillary sounds right.  On ACTUAL judgment (i.e. before the Iraq war), Obama IS right.  Thanks for clearing that up.


by rashomon on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Facts again get in the way (none / 0)

Obama has matched Hillary vote for vote in the Senate.  He is not even as anti-war as Edwards or Richardson, let alone Kucinich or Gravel.  Even Hillary has made a stronger statement about ending the war if elected.

Obama has not said he will end the war if elected.  He dances around it with "we are one signature away", etc.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Uh... (3.00 / 2)

That's not what I said.  All I said was that on the most important foreign policy decision in recent history, Obama was right, and Hillary was wrong.

I don't have any quibbles with Hillary or Obama's current approach...unlike some other folks around here, I happen to agree with both that the audience to work on is Congressional Republicans...when they abandon Bush, that will end the war.  And we won't have to wait until 2009 for that.  The current supplemental is a red herring.


by rashomon on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:12:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Looks like he is doing "Gordon Brown's 10 percent strategy".  That is triangulating a little to the left of Clinton but he doesn't want to alienate Robert Rubin and co, who are most certainly not grassroots are grasstops, nor are they necessary to win.


Dameocrat Blog also Stray Roots Messageboard
by Dameocrat on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:35:43 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

it's becoming impossible to imagine Obama doing anything of the sort in order to form a partisan alliance that he would need to win in 2008

basically kiss our ass or he can't win hmm...


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:36:58 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Yours, not mine...


by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 10:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We can't hope for a win in '08 (3.00 / 1)

Obama's bi-partisan, new politics spiel is niave and worse, a dead end trap in the general.

Is he going to run 75% positive ads like Kerry and try to stay above the fray like Kerry?  His new brand of politics message would suggest so, and it suggests to me he will be gutted like a fish by the GOP's negative, partisan attack - just like Kerry.

We need someone sharp, focused, and good on the attack who can rally democrats and indy's in the face of the GOP attack.  We can't "hope" for a win, we have to engineer one.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:37:33 PM EST

Re: We can't hope for a win in '08 (3.00 / 1)

Quite true on the rallying of democrats and indys and that we can't just hope for a win and have to engineer one.

The problem with "your girl" is that 50% of people say they flat out won't vote for her, including a full 52% of of indys. Whereas indys are much more favorable towards both Edwards and Obama.

Edwards is the progressive populist movement candidate, just look at his proposals, look at what he's saying and how he's saying it. It's obvious. We need to engineer his win of the primary and then let him lose in the general where he already does excellently in all the head-to-heads.


by Quinton on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We can't hope for a win in '08 (none / 0)

Least likely group to vote:  Young voters

Sure, they like a party.  I remember HUGE crowds going to the "Concerts for Peace" organized for Democratic candidates.  They had a gigantic voter registration drive.  At the end of the day they were missing in large numbers from the polls.  

Most likely group to vote:  Voters over 55 years of age.

You won't see them at Obama rallies, but you will see them pull in early and often into polling places, eventually making up over 50% of the voting population in primaries, almost 60% in caucuses.  

Obama needs all the online activists he can get to make up the age deficit and known "show up" history of youth voters.   Why not have active participation in the blogosphere?  Heck, Hillary Clinton even participated in online blogging recently herself.  

I understand that Obama supporters want to defend him against any attacks, but is it not legitimate to ask why he has been shutting out blogging completely as if that form of communication does not exist?


by georgep on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We can't hope for a win in '08 (3.00 / 1)

Bi-partisan rhetoric is precisely why he's the best candidate in the general.  It's the primary that's more difficult.  

And comparing John Kerry to Barak Obama is just silly.  And Kerry's problem wasn't that he didn't attack Bush, people already hated Bush; his problem was that he didn't defend himself.  Obama han indicated thus far that he won't make the same mistake.


by BobbyWallace on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bush attacked, Kerry played defense (3.00 / 1)

He played weak defense at that.  

The last time the Democratic candidate ran a hard nosed campaign is when the Clinton's put Bob Dole away early, leaving him looking like an angry, dottering old fool who was out of the game before the debates even began.

We can do the same thing in '08, but not with a soft, inexperienced candidate, trying to stay above the fray.  The fray is where the candidate needs to be - FIGHTING.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That was BILL CLINTON... (none / 0)

I think it is going to be especially tough for Hillary to win.  She got too many negatives.  I know you think she won last night, but look at ALL the polling from South Carolina, and she did not win.

South Carolina is one of the four early states to really put the candidate on the fast track of front-loading February 5th.  To disregard SC, is a huge mistake.  SC's democratic base is almost 50% of African American, and Hillary and Obama NEED THEM TO WIN.

This thing is far from over.  Besides, Obama's donor/donation meter is ticking away.  So, apparently no momentum has been STOPPED.

www.barackobama.com


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That was BILL CLINTON... (none / 0)

Where is anyone disregarding SC?  Quite the opposite is true.

And what do you mean ALL the polling?  Only one poll has come out so far, and it was not of likely Democratic primary voters, but all registered voters, which makes it virtually worthless to our discussion.


by georgep on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, PUHLEEEAAZZZEEEE... (3.00 / 5)

Why do you think that all the Right Winged TALK PUNDITS on radio is raving that Hillary won?  Because they want her for the Democratic Nominee.  BTW, it is hard for anyone to have won anything from that structure last night.

Anyhow, who need to go down the Clinton "memory lane" if Hillary becomes the nominee.  Damn, we were already beat up with Bill's Monica antics, the bj jokes, getting the Oval Office a "good scrubbin'", Whitewater, impeachment, lying under oath, geez, do we need to rehash all that atrocious bullshit.

I like Hillary, always have and always will.  She is a strong woman, a smart woman, but girlfriend got to much baggage for me.  I stuck with she and Bill till they were out of office but I am not willing to go through it again with "them".

Since, 1988 this country has been "SUCKED" but Bush/Clinton/Bush/now another Clinton?  I mean, is elitism at its height here?  Are we not "smart enough" voters to say enough already, and "I WANT SOMEONE NEW".

I think we are.  Barack Obama is not generating buzz, raising monies, getting people in the process and engaged on osmosis.  He is challenging us, the people, that we have a choice and if we want something different and new, then we have to step up to the plate and make the decision.

At this point, love Hillary, but anyone BUT Hillary.  WORD ON THAT


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 05:59:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, PUHLEEEAAZZZEEEE... (none / 0)

There were a few problems with this particular post.   Specifically:

Why do you think that all the Right Winged TALK PUNDITS on radio is raving that Hillary won?  Because they want her for the Democratic Nominee.

Come on, that is ridiculous.  Do you actually BELIEVE that?  She surprised many people, including lots of posters here.  And, since when is Keith Olberman a RIGHT-WINGED pundit?

Anyhow, who need to go down the Clinton "memory lane" if Hillary becomes the nominee.  Damn, we were already beat up with Bill's Monica antics, the bj jokes, getting the Oval Office a "good scrubbin'", Whitewater, impeachment, lying under oath, geez, do we need to rehash all that atrocious bullshit.

Pffft.   Sorry, but that is so much BS here.  

Since, 1988 this country has been "SUCKED" but Bush/Clinton/Bush/now another Clinton?  I mean, is elitism at its height here?  Are we not "smart enough" voters to say enough already, and "I WANT SOMEONE NEW".

More of this stuff?  So she can't run because of your preconceived notions?   What is wrong with that picture?  Last time I checked ANYONE who is not a felon and is born in the US has the right to run for the highest office.  It does not matter who he or she is.  If you don't like it, lobby your Congressman or -woman or Senator to start a campaign to change the 21st amendment, for cripes sakes.

At this point, love Hillary, but anyone BUT Hillary.  WORD ON THAT

Are you going to have a bumper sticker printed?   I feel like I'm in GOP land here sometimes.   Barf.  


by georgep on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, PUHLEEEAAZZZEEEE... (3.00 / 2)

Do you think the Republicans are not going to bring out all that dirty laundry of Clinton into the fray?  Remind people about what was and what we don't want again?  If you do not think that, then you are the one living in la-la-land.  And again, I have the utmost respect for Clinton, voted for her husband twice, gave her money for both her senator runs, so I have the highest regard for her.

But for me, and many other like me, I don't want to deal with the "Clinton Chronicles" again.  And if she does not bring her negatives down/polarizing numbers she is going to have a hard time.  For all of us, democrats, with you suspect, arguing our points of view for her candidacy is relevant and should be done.  I want to know how she is going to deal with the attacks that are going to come her way.  And why should she be "annoited" to the Democratic nod?  Because her last name is Clinton?  That is not good enough for me and for many.  

Lastly, I have talked to many and they have a hard case with her.  Whether you like it or not, they do not want to be reminded of the past, but want to move forward.  

And if anyone should in the GOP land, it is YOU.

WORD ON THAT ONE...(:


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:00:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, PUHLEEEAAZZZEEEE... (none / 0)

Why would that be?  Do I bash Obama or Edwards gratuitously?   Who in the hell cares if YOU are tired of the "chronicles."   Then don't vote for her, vote for your chosen candidate.   But, DON'T tell people that they are STUPID if they don't agree with you.   It makes your point look stilted and forced.   You don't have anything substantive to bash her with, so it has to be about "Monica's BJ"?    Silly stuff.  And, yes, most of your attacks (which I highlighted above) come straight from the GOP playbook.  


by georgep on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, PUHLEEEAAZZZEEEE... (none / 0)

You are silly is as silly comes.

And no one is telling anyone who to vote for, with exception above.  And if you think that the tbings that happened in the Clinton years will not be on the table if she is the nominee, then you are a GOP'er hinding and posting on a lefty blog.  And many have issues, I for one, about her vote for the war.  If she can explain THAT ONE, it would satify many, but she refuse to do so.  So if anyone is running a GOP "playbook" in disguise, look in the mirror, it is you.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 09:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with Biden (none / 0)

Hillary is tough.  

She is a fighter.  

Fact is she can best rally the who spectrum of voters needed for Democrats to win.  Blacks, Hispanics, and most importantly, women.  The guys like me are just the icing on the cake.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:01:21 PM EST

Re: I agree with Biden (3.00 / 0)

what you're doing a good job of doing Andrew is uniting Edwards and Obama voters because Hillary's toast if they ever agree to pick one to oppose Hillary for the nomination, I personally like Hillary but I don't like you and you aren't doing her any favors, I know Hillary doesn't have much support in the online world but much better spokespeople for her exist on this blog, learn from them.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I could give a hoot (3.00 / 0)

Go ride your skateboard if you don't like my posts.

I too am very interested to see where the voters go when Obama / Edwars blink and one pulls out.

I think Edwards voters will mostly move to Clinton.  I think Obama supporters would most move to Edwards.   That is just my unscientific view.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:12:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I could give a hoot (3.00 / 1)

And a very "unscientific" one at that.

Obama is not running a "traditional campaign".  He has mass support out there and it is growing.  Again, for such a "light weight" how in the HELL did he raise over $25M in 1/2 of last quarter.  And has over 41K donors and it the month of April has not even expired?  People do not give out money for NOTHING.  There is a movement out there and it is not for the "status quo".


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:18:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I could give a hoot (1.00 / 0)

With your comments about Obama sometimes I wonder whether you really are a Hillary supporter or just a rightwing asshole pretending to be one in order to bash Obama, tell me if Obama is the nominee will you vote for him?


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice talk. Your mother should be proud. (none / 0)

I'm true BLUE.  I like Obama.  I just think he is inexperieced the media buzz around him us fueling irrational support from some supporters who are using his blank slate to protect their hope and deams upon.

I think like Harold Ford, he could run a great campaign and lost it late to the republican smear machine, which I think Obama is totally uncapable of dealing with at this point.  He ran against Alan Keyes for pete's sake.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice talk. Your mother should be proud. (none / 0)

ok then support Hillary all you want, if she does win the nomination i'll be with you, but please lay off the "god help us if Barack Obama"
becomes president talk, most people her an in the country think we currently have about the worst possable president we could imagine also I don't think Barack Obama would have any problems defending the counrty nor would Edwards or any of our "mainstream nominees" a Rudy type arguement coming from Hillary or her supporters is despicable.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are TRIPPIN' (3.00 / 1)

Obama is not capable of dealing with "smear tactics"?  What do you thing he HAS been dealing with since he announced?  I know you are fawnin' all over your girl, Hillary, but there is a movement out there for "anyone but her".

We, Democrats, do not want to rehash the "Clinton Chronicles" again.  Too, much bullshit attached.

We, many Democrats, are looking, wanting another candidate that is not in the elitist structure of BUSH/CLINTON/BUSH/now another CLINTON?

We, Americans, can think for ourselves and since 1988 with the above structure in the White House, we want and demand, SOMEONE NEW...WORD


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

elitist ? (none / 0)

I love this idea that some candidates are elites and some are not.  What is an elite?  I'd 99% of the candidates that run for President, incl. Barry Obama, are elites.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 10:19:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I could give a hoot (3.00 / 1)

nevadadem, this is getting way too personal.  Chill.  Name calling solves nothing.  It makes those who engage in it just look like hotheads.  


by georgep on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I could give a hoot (none / 0)

Obama would get Edwards voters. Not Hillary. They too realize that she's negative from the top of the ticket to the bottom of downticket races. She's gonna bring nutwingers to the polls and hurt other congressional and local races that way. Hillary's candidacy is not worth that. We have too much damage to repair.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not the Edwards voters I know (none / 0)

Iowa's going first, so I won't have this problem, but I can tell you that I would support anyone left standing against Clinton in the Democratic primaries. So would my brother in Arizona, who is also for Edwards.

Many Edwards supporters like Obama, they just like Edwards better.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 11:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)


I was on a popular progressive blog last night and the consensus on the debate was wins for Kucinich and Gravel, and that Obama made perhaps a fatal error by saying we needed to defend Israel.

Given that, I guess I could see if some candidates are still a little leery of the blogosphere.


by Bush Bites on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:01:32 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 3)

Given how strong his supporters defend and fight for him, I would say he knows how to work his base very well and there is definately outreach to those on his site... However, I will agree that 1) there could be more with those who belong to his site and 2) there should be more with those who are not yet supporters.  What Obama's site does have going for it is the integration of the social networking tools... while the campaign could be more involved, the efforts of the supporters working together is very impressive.


by yitbos96bb on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:09:06 PM EST

What about Biden? (3.00 / 1)

Armstrong's anti-Biden agenda strikes again!

Obama very well may be following the best strategy, here. I'm not sure if anyone would be shocked if he wins the primary, and the general, running with a tone of moderation and 'centrism' (in quotes, because I don't mean the word as an attack).

He's an incredibly bright guy, and I'm pretty sure he knows exactly what he's doing. Working the plan. He doesn't need the netroots at the moment, I think, in any greater number than he has us (and he has in quite impressive numbers, particularly considering his relative disinterest). If at some point he decides to reach out more effectively--which I suspect he will--look for people like myself, strong Edwards-leaners, to get all giddy and delighted. He knows this.

I don't know Reagan's history with the direct mail infrastructure (though I find that fact fascinating), but if he started with, say, a chokehold on only 25-30% of that infrastructure, as Obama has now in the netroots, this early in the cycle, I wouldn't be surprised. And if he wooed some of the rest of them strategically--and tossed others under the bus, also strategically--I also wouldn't be surprised.

I really, really, wish Obama was tacking more to the left, and the netroots/progressive left in particular. I think his numbers could be far higher than they already are. I think this could be an online Obama blowout. But I also recognize that he doesn't need a blowout at this point. I expect him to 'Sister Souljah' some parts of the netleft at some point, too--I'll be surprised if he doesn't. And I further expect that, even if he does, we'll rallly 'round eventually, if he's the nominee, precisely as he expects.

And finally, because I'm not sufficiently confused yet, I also think that we--to the extent the netleft is a monolithic 'we'--really oughtta be pushing him hard on this stuff. We want him to be indebted to us. We want him to pander to us. These things are fantastic for the progressive movement. It's our job to try to drag his ass down to our level.


by BingoL on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:12:52 PM EST

Re: What about Biden? (3.00 / 1)

Reagan had a strong link with the burgeoning infrastructure on the right dating back from the Goldwater campaign. He ran on Ford's right in 1976 and nearly took the nomination then.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But they dont have a link on their site (none / 0)

Except through a blog entry.

There should be a permanent link to Hillary Hub on their web site or else it will be a farce.


by jasmine on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 06:15:30 PM EST

Re: But they dont have a link on their site (none / 0)

They'll have a link on hillaryclinton.com to hillaryhub.com

Give them time.  The site just launched a couple of hours ago.

They announced the launch by sending out emails today.  


by samueldem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just Posted on hillaryclinton.com / amazing (none / 0)

Leading Californians Endorse Clinton
Hillary to Address California State Convention Tomorrow
Hillary Clinton received the endorsements of two dozen prominent California officials and community leaders today, on the eve of California's Democratic state convention in San Diego.

"I'm endorsing Hillary Clinton for President because I know her and admire her," said California Treasurer Bill Lockyer. "She's been my good friend and our state's great ally for more than a decade. Nobody understands Californians, the California Dream, and the vital importance of California to our nation's success better than Hillary Clinton. And Hillary Clinton is -- far and away -- the only candidate who is ready to lead the country now, without any on-the-job training."

State Assemblywoman Fiona Ma said, "Hillary is the most qualified candidate and is ready to lead this country from day one. Hillary knows the White House, Congress, and has the respect of world leaders. Most importantly, Hillary has been long-time advocate for the Asian American and Pacific Islander community, and I know that she will continue her commitment when she becomes President."

Clinton will address the convention at 10:15 a.m. tomorrow at the San Diego Convention Center.

Leading Californians Endorsing Hillary Today:
Bill Lockyer, California Treasurer
Gray Davis, Former Governor
Christine Kehoe, State Senator
Sheila Kuehl, State Senator
Fiona Ma, State Assemblywoman
Clarence Avant, Music Executive
Berry Gordy, Music Producer/Founder Motown Records
Quincy Jones, Musician
Rev. Amos Brown
Rosalind Wyman, DNC Member/CEO of 1984 DNC CONVENTION
Maria Echaveste, Democratic National Committee Member
Alice Huffman, Democratic National Committee Member
Mirian Saez, Democratic National Committee Member
Dennis Herrera, San Francisco City Attorney
Michela Alioto-Pier, San Francisco City Supervisor
Joe Nation, Former Assemblyman
Jackie Speier, Former State Senator
Otto Lee, Mayor of Sunnyvale
Henry Manayan, Former Mayor of Milpitas
Rajen Anand, Chairman/Nat'l Federation of Indian-American Associations
Alice Bulos - Chair Emeritus of the Filipino American Democratic Caucus

Charmaine Manansala, former Advisor to Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the White House Initiative on Asian American and Pacific Islanders

Dang Pham, Vietnamese Activist
Rose Ochi, Attorney
Jim Park, Businessman


by samueldem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:26:20 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 2)

it sounds like Phil Angeleidis v/s Westly again, I hope Calfornia dems rememeber what happened the last time they backed a candidate supported by every political interest group but was unliked by the majority of actual voters.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 07:54:38 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Yeah, I mean Gray Davis! Seriously. It's like an anti-endorsement.


by eskimo on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

This isn't my area of concern, so will someone please explain to me what they believe Obama SHOULD be doing with regards to Outreach? I go to his website, and I think it's interactive. I choose not to interact, but to surf it, so I'm not understanding what he's doing ' wrong'.


by rikyrah on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 10:27:09 PM EST

JRE's blogroll (none / 0)

http://blog.johnedwards.com/oac_blogroll


by dereau on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 11:31:30 PM EST

Re: JRE's blogroll (none / 0)

Yea, I could point out that the rss on that page is stuck in sept 2006.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 11:38:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

(Full disclosure--I'm fully behind Edwards)

Re: the Myspace and Facebook numbers.

MySpace and Facebook are vanity pages that show the world the cliques you want displayed.  Though large numbers of registrants may show a candidate is embracing a new form of technology and exploiting it very well, it doesn't necessarily translate into intellectual discourse.  Please note-- I am not talking about the intelligence of people associated with a particular candidate-- I am referring to capacity of a campaign to have intelligent discourse with those given structures--which are the equivalent of high school yearbooks.

Blogs on the other hand, promote discourse, controversy and frank discussion.  Edwards' blog has been a prominent part of his site and is wide open.  Everyday supporters can voice their concerns about stands or strategy and be heard.  Sometimes it's contentious and heated.  That is a fantastic thing.  It shows the egalitarian nature of the campaign.

Sure, candidate blogs aren't going to get the sheer numbers that one will get with myspace pages (unless Markos or Duncan black declare) but I say that doesn't matter.  The blogs attract the driven-- and that's where one of Edwards' advantages lie.


by Rooktoven on Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 11:56:13 PM EST

Wow did this get off-topic! (none / 0)

Got thru all the comments, and had to go back to the top to reassure myself that this was a post about campaign outreach to blogs -- not a post-debate spin room.


by karichisholm on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 01:21:00 AM EST

Re: Wow did this get off-topic! (none / 0)

You have to wonder who the hell they are spinning for besides themselves, as there's not a vote to be swayed here.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 11:38:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Explaining Edwards outreach and new found (3.00 / 1)

populism is not very hard. I am puzzled that people here are so naive when it comes to seeing through his strategy.

He is saying everything that you (netroots partisans) want to hear because he needs you to win the primaries. Like a Democratic version of Mitt Romney. The day after the primaries are over - who knows?

Look, I like Edwards campaign and his policy proposals. But I do not curse Obama for not kissing netroots ass - because he does not have to. And I am not sure that Edwards would have done it if he could have avoided it. Like he did in 2004.

And yes, that haircut reinforce the impression of a populist conversion under the sword. But of course I could be wrong.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 11:05:53 AM EST

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

Why do you guys waste your time arguing on here? Are you expecting to change the minds of other posters? I could probably count on my two hands the posters here that haven't already made up their mind.

To win you need VOTERS, not a far liberal blog that fancies 100 people on the internet. It has been explained countless times. Obama's strategy is to talk to the PEOPLE, not the blogosphere. Clearly that is not the same strategy as Edwards, and it doesn't appear to be a good one.

It has been universally agreed upon that Clinton is winning states such as SC now because of name recognition. It has also been stated, I forget the political reporters names from The State, that Obama does not have the name recognition (still) as Edwards and Clinton. What does he need to do to get that? Talk to the PEOPLE. Sorry, but the blogosphere is not where he needs to be right now.


by mattmfm on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 11:40:51 AM EST

Re: The Outreach (3.00 / 1)

I 100% gree with you and i also suspect this is the reason Obama is not catering the the blogs that much...He knows that blog users are very partisan and,most likely, made up their mind already and probably supports the candidate that sounds the most liberal or the one that's willing to kiss their ring.Obama doesn't want to do whatever a specific groups waants him to do for their supports.


by JaeHood on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 12:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Outreach is something a blog should aspire to do.  This site is becoming less and less relevant.  Stop fooling around and just change the title to MyeDDwards.


by dougdilg on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 12:55:49 PM EST

Re: The Outreach (none / 0)

Ha!


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Sat Apr 28, 2007 at 05:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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