Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the Long Campaign

Now that we are fully four months into the 2008 presidential election season, armchair goo-goos (good government types) have managed to develop a national narrative about the structure of the process that centers on three major complaints:
  1. There is too much money in the process. In order to compete, candidates must now raise far more money than in the past, and they must also refuse to participate in the old, partial public financing system. This also unnaturally narrows the field to a handful of candidates early in the process.

  2. Frontloading is dangerous to democracy. With so many states lining up to hold primaries on February 5th, both the Republican and Democratic nominations will be decided too quickly. Most primary voters will not have much time to evaluate the candidates before Super Tuesday, and the well financed candidates who can afford a nationwide campaign will have a decided advantage.

  3. The campaign starts too early, and takes too long. Everyone complains about this, at least in public. We are regularly told it is way too early to see this much focus on the 2008 presidential election. Even Bill Clinton complained about this recently.
All three of these complaints were recently summarized in a New Yorker article by Hendrik Hertzberg:
This development has two aspects, both of which have been widely deplored. One is the bunching of primaries, which magnifies the need to raise very big money very early, pretty much guarantees that dark horses will stay dark, and makes it harder for someone to enter the race late. The other is the time gap between de-facto nomination in February and de-jure election in November--as lengthy as a full-term pregnancy, and offering similar opportunities for fatigue, boredom, irritability, and nausea (in addition, of course, to ample chances for joy, kicks, and that certain glow).(...)

The purity of that motive, however, does not obviate the fact that a schedule that (a) locks up both parties' nominations in one fell swoop and (b) requires the country to devote two out of every four years to Presidential politicking is completely insane.
Frankly, I have had enough of these complaints, and I am writing this post to call bullshit on all of them (except for the part about the need for public financing). The truth is, all of these supposed "good government" (goo-goo) complaints are based in a deep cynicism about the American populace and on the worthiness of political activism. Not to mention that there is an obvious contradiction at play. It really is just a bunch of whining, cynical bullshit. My complete rebuttal against these complaints can be found in the extended entry.

For starters, here are a few broad points:
  1. The campaign can't be both too long and too frontloaded. How can people complain about both frontloading and the campaign taking too long? Doesn't anyone wee the obvious contradiction in that complaint? If there has been intensive activist and media focus on the presidential election for a full year before Super Tuesday, then I think people have had plenty of time to make up their minds before entering the voting booth. In 2008, people will have more time than ever before to evaluate the candidates competing for the two major nominations. Then, because of frontloading, more people will have a say in determining the nominees than ever before. How is giving people more time to make up their minds, and then having more people meaningfully participate, bad for democracy in any way?

  2. Political activism and public engagement in the political process are both good things. Another aspect of these goo-goo complaints that really irritates me is that they all imply that political activism and public engagement in the political process are bad things. If you are arguing that the campaign is starting too early, you are also arguing that increased media attention on the political process, greatly increased political rally attendance, greatly increased small donor participation, greatly increased political volunteerism, and greatly increased public attention to political campaigns are somehow net negatives for American society. . Increased attention on the 2008 presidential campaign is not being driven by paid media, since virtually no candidates have run any paid media to this point. The fact is that the increased attention to the 2008 campaign is being generated primarily from the people-powered world of voluntary progressive activism and the renaissance of independent media that is the political blogosphere. That grassroots efforts are resulting in more available campaign information, and greater engagement in the political process, are both very good things for democracy, not bad things. I have a very, very hard time seeing the difference between complaining about the early start to the campaign and the increased, grassroots participation in the political process that we have encountered these past few years. Seriously--what is the difference between those two complaints right now? I can't figure it out. The reason the campaign is starting earlier is because more people are engaged in the campaign, period. Even if the increased attention to the campaign is being driven top-down by the media and political establishment, explain to me why it would be a negative that the media and political establishment are finally paying more attention to the political process instead of, say Anna Nichole Smith?

  3. The emergence of "darkhorse" candidates and late entries to the presidential race are not good things, in and of themselves. It is not necessarily good, not inherently a sign of a healthy democracy, that longshot candidates can come from the back of the pack to challenge the frontrunners late in the came. Signs of a healthy democracy include high voter participation, high voter knowledge, and a process that is fair to all participants. None of those require that darkhorse candidates come from behind and pull upsets that shock the world. While that might be a sign of an exciting NCAA tournament, or a nice plot for a political novel, there is nothing inherently good or democratic about those events. It is an aesthetic and emotional desire, not a requirement for a healthy democracy. A democracy can be just as healthy if the top two or three candidates slug it out from wire to wire. Just because a candidate is not among the leaders does not mean that the system is unfairly stacked against that candidate. It could also mean that candidate simply isn't very popular, or a very good campaigner.

    Yes, there are problems with money and politics, but keep in mind that the candidates who have the most large donors also have the most small donors. Obama, Edwards and Clinton would still be the top three candidates in terms of money even if donations were capped at $250. In fact, both the money rankings and the polls on the Democratic side would be virtually identical even without the large donations. Besides, a longer campaign actually gives darkhorses more opportunities to emerge than would a short campaign. If the campaign season had not started until September, every single second tier candidate would already be finished and have no chance at the nomination whatsoever. However, now they all still have nine more months to make up the deficit they face.

  4. The American electorate is not a bunch of dupes for paid media. Another assumption at the core of these complaints is that the American electorate are a bunch of dupes who are easily swayed by the paid media campaigns of well-heeled candidates. Hogwash. In 2004, Bush and Kerry spent a combined $660M on the presidential campaign, and only 4.7% of the electorate changed their minds during the campaign. If money still really played such a decisive role in voting patterns, don't you think that maybe the $660,000,000, plus about twice that from outside groups, would have resulted in more than 4.7% of the voters changing their minds? Or maybe that instead of being roundly crushed, Howard Dean and Bill Bradley would have won the 2004 and 2000 Democratic nominations, since they each raised the most amount of money during their respective primary seasons? The fact is that voter behavior is determined less by campaign money now than it was in recent decades, and that is a good thing.
Now, I agree that there should be public financing of elections in a way that reduces the power of large donors over the political process. However, as I already noted, I don't think that would change the horserace complexion of the 2008 presidential race at all--it would just change the complexion of who has access to, and influence over, our candidates. Also, generally speaking, most media outlets neither adequately focus on the policy differences of candidates, nor upon cutting through campaign spin. However, most people don't vote based on policy minutia, and they never have. Yet further, while we do have a problem in America where too few of our citizens take an active role in the political process. However, if anything frontloading and the long campaign are helping alleviate that problem, not worsen it.

In summary, whatever problems there are in our democracy, I fail to see how frontloading or a long campaign exacerbates them in any way. If anything, frontloading and the long campaign are actually good things for our democracy. Grassroots political activism and increased public engagement in the political process are both good things. Giving the public more information on the candidates vying to hold our most important elected office, and more information on those candidates, are also good things for any democracy. Allowing more people to play a meaningful role in the political process is a good thing. It is pathetic and revealing to see supposed good government types complaining about these developments.

Finally, even after all of that is taken into account, inexpensive, early states are still just as available to every underfunded, longshot candidates as they ever were. If you have a full year and several million dollars, your inability to break through to 35% of the small caucus and primary electorates in Iowa, where only 50,000 caucus goers would be enough to win, or New Hampshire, where 100,000 primary voters would be enough to win, is not the fault of a corrupted political system. In 2004, even Dennis Kucinich raised $13,000,000, which would be enough to spend over $85 on each of the voters needed to win both states. Don't come cryin' to mama about frontloading, a long campaign, or too much money in the process if you can't win in Iowa or New Hampshire. Quite frankly, in that circumstance, the problems with your campaign in particular, or with our democracy in general, are to be found elsewhere.

Display:


Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (2.00 / 2)

If you're going to frontload, just hold every primary on the same damn day. My issue is that they're spaced too closely together such that what ends up happening is the domino effect that occurred in 2004 - Kerry won Iowa, Edwards came in a close second, and that set the narrative for the rest of the primary. The polls showed that Kerry basically bounced up everywhere almost solely as a result of winning in Iowa. Imagine that happening now, where someone wins Iowa. Then you hit NV, NH, SC, and the 20+ states the following week. Momentum is going to be a huge factor, I think, and that's the problem with frontloading - it doesn't allow anyone to screw up at the beginning.


by PsiFighter37 on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 05:18:18 PM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (none / 0)

Well, it CAN be frontloaded and too long, because the primary election cycle is a subset of the presidential cycle.  The two are linked, but not interchangeable.

But none of those reasons really bother me about it at this point.  It's the idea that somehow it's better to extend the period of time leading up to the November election in which the two parties are sniping at each other and further removing the "who's a better Democrat, let's only talk about issues of the Democratic party" process from the minds of voters when they head to the ballot box.  Particularly since you can't ever go back really.  The toothpaste is out of the tube, and there's only one direction this can trend.  I don't find my sense of democracy threatened or offended, but neither does it seem particularly wise to do it this way.


by Lucas O'Connor on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 05:21:04 PM EST

Analysis versus Knee jerk (none / 0)

I'd view these debates as just that...most people are going to have some degree of knee jerk reaction to anything that is new and different. In the blogs we each get a forum to voice our opinions, and a lot of times what you'll see is purely unfiltered reactions that aren't necessarily well thought out. The first reactions you see can appear imbecilic, but really are just the first thoughts of those who haven't spent much or even any time considering the issue.

Chris on the other hand has obviously spent a bit of time on this and I appreciate him giving it his take, because I may not have the time or the expertise to consider these things myself.


by mihan on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 05:42:38 PM EST

I Disagree (3.00 / 2)

I don't think I've ever been as seriously at odds with you over anything before, Chris.  I think the current shift is a bad deal. I think it's obvious that frontloading prolongs the campaign--it starts the primaries much earlier, pumps up the importance of early money from big donors, shrinks the period of time when large numbers of voters are paying attention to intra-party debates focused on our issues, and probably sours the flavor in my mango juice, as well!

No, seriously.  I agree with you that long campaigns can be good things, if actually do involve people in politics.  But I see serious problems with  the current setup doing that.

Fortunately, I think that this is probably a transitional state.  I'm not sure where things are headed, but I think the frontloading shift comes from a disatisfaction that will continue to be felt, and lead to further changes.

Public financing should definitely be one of these changes, and will certainly be the most important, as far as I'm concerned.  Arguing about the rest sort of seems pointless to me right now.  We have what we have, for this time.  And we will probably have something different thereafter.

Oh, yeah, depoliticizing the election administration process would also be high on my list.  No more GOP Secreataries of State stealing elections, thank you.  And the only way to ensure that is to do away with the current system.  Other countries have done this long ago.  Why can't we?


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 05:50:53 PM EST

Of course frontloading prolong sthe campaign (none / 0)

But this is the part that doesn't make any sense:
frontloading... shrinks the period of time when large numbers of voters are paying attention to intra-party debates focused on our issues
No, it really doesn't. You can't have a longer campaign and a shorter period of time to debate issues. That just doesn't make any sense.

And the length of the campaign actually makes your total number of donors more important. In a campaign this long, you need repeat donors to keep coming back. the gap between large donors and small donors will shrink as the campaign goes forward, and the role of small donors has increased in recent years as the campaign has gotten longer.

I am with you on public financing, but to complain that the longer campaign somehow reduces the amount of time spent focusing in issues doesn't make any sense. do you think that, in our current media environment, a shorter campaign would somehow be more issue based? Not likely.
by Chris Bowers on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 06:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course frontloading prolong sthe campaign (3.00 / 4)

I think the "large numbers of voters" is the key phrase there, though. In comparison with the number of people who will vote in primaries or the general election, even the number of people who have donated or come to rallies so far is relatively small. The people who won't start tuning in until closer to Iowa, or to their own primary, are the ones who are going to be hit by frontloading. If they start paying attention in January, and the nomination is settled by February, then they'll have missed the Democratic debate, and all that will be left for them to focus on is the general election matchup - which they'll probably tune out for several months because it's so damned far away.

I'm also a little concerned that the long campaign does wind up being somewhat less issue based even for those of us who are paying attention to the campaign at this point. 2007 has now been somewhat lost as a year for actually working on issues, because everything is being viewed through the prism of the campaign. It has activists dividing up into camps and debates over legislation at least somewhat overshadowed by talking about campaign themes, fundraising appeals, and so on. A shorter campaign might give activists and public officials more time to actually do something on the issues to build a record, which we could then discuss during the campaign.


by Dave Thomer on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 06:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course frontloading prolong sthe campaign (none / 0)

That's assuming that the frontloading will shorten the primary race.

It could lengthen the primary race. Most early primaries are important for their headline value, rather than their delegate count, so the focus is on who wins and (sometimes) who comes second.

But that can quite easily end up with 35:25:20:10 percent of delegates among the top four, with another 10% scattered around the rest of the field. The actual magnitude of delegates won does not matter in the early primaries, as much as the impact on the media narrative.

If half the delegates are awarded on one day, and the big winner on the day ends up with 35% of the delegates awarded that day, does that shorten the primary season, or lengthen it?


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 06:57:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course frontloading prolongs the campaign (3.00 / 1)

If we didn't have Iowa and NH up first, and we were starting off with a quasi-national Mega Tuesday, I could see the possibility of a 3 or 4 way split of the 2/5 states' delegates that would keep the contest going longer. But my concern is that Iowa/Nevada/NH/SC will create a bandwagon effect and tactical voting decisions in the 2/5 states, leading to one or two candidates anointed out of the early primaries winning the lion's share of delegates.

It's possible I'm drawing too much on 2004 as the example there, I admit.

I'm thinking right now that either a huge batch of primaries all at once should lead off, so there is a reduced bandwagon effect; or the individual contests should be stretched out allowing time for the losing candidates to try and reshift the narrative.

I'm not 100% sure that a prolonged campaign results in a greater focus on issues - I think it might result in exhaustion and tuning out. Or lousy horse-race coverage. I think a short, intense, issue-driven debating period between lots of candidates before the votes are cast would be nice. But if there's nine months between that debate and the general election, I think much of the momentum from that debate gets sapped.

Maybe I'm part of the cynicism Chris initially described, because I don't think that many of the voters get involved in an issue-driven process one way or the other right. There's too much polling data, over too long a time, that indicates many American voters can not clearly identify issue positions and do not use those positions to make their voting decisions. This is something about America that I would like to see changed, and I think it's going to require a cultural overhaul that has government and politics as one dimension. And the amount of time that activists stay focused on the presidential election can actually distract from that effort.

Heck, I'm guilty as charged. I'm probably spending as much time thinking about the 2008 election as I am about Philadelphia's mayoral/council election, and that election's primary is coming up in about three weeks.


by Dave Thomer on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 09:21:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, there's that possibility ... (none / 0)

... but then again, there will be multiple storylines from those early events.

But my concern is that Iowa/Nevada/NH/SC will create a bandwagon effect and tactical voting decisions in the 2/5 states, leading to one or two candidates anointed out of the early primaries winning the lion's share of delegates.

... and those storylines will play differently in different states. What if Richardson can finish 3rd in Iowa, then 2nd in NV ... does it create the buzz for him that he can take into California? What if Hillary finishes in the top two nowhere ... she certainly will not be finished financially by 2/5, and will be putting all her chips on some big wins to recharge her candidacy.

Unless there is a genuine candidate level gaffe, as opposed to these Drudge Report mozzie bites, I can very easily see a 35:25:20 breakdown at the end of Tsunami Tuesday ... especially if part of the slingshot effect is to slingshot someone not in the current front tier in a way that further fractures the California result.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 09:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, there's that possibility ... (3.00 / 1)

I think many individuals underestimate the significance of the national media and the homogenization of political perspectives.  

Having a mega Tuesday first would likely yield the same results in all states with the noticeable exceptions of homestate candidates or strong regional preferences.

Regional preferences should probably be read as only relating to the south, and maybe the upper midwest.  On the Democratic side, Dems on the west coast will more likely than not vote the same way as Dems in the Northeast.
This doesn't mean that the activists will necessarily support the same candidates, but lower information voters will use the same news sources throughout the country since the media has become so homogenized.  However, even the activists may support the same candidates in the various parts.  For example, at Dkos, we all became big Tester, Webb, Lamont supporters... regardless of where we lived because they spoke to us and appealled to us on issues relevant to us.  Thus, regional differences are being minimized everywhere.

*however, there are still differences.  But the only way those differences will be brough out is if there are fewer states holding elections at the same time--> more candidate to voter interaction+response.

-Zen Blade


by Zen Blade on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 10:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Different storylines (none / 0)

Again, I'm drawing from the 2004 example - the different storylines didn't really stop Kerry from coming darned close to running the table. My biggest concern is that campaigns are going to need to seem viable to keep their media profiles and especially their bank accounts high enough. There's some self-fulfilling prophecy here - if candidates pour everything they have into scoring victories in the first four, and then they don't beat expectations/score wins/whatever, can they convince people to give them the money to try to recover?

Maybe with all the money flowing in right now, campaigns won't have any choice but to build up a war chest for the post-Iowa, pre-2/5 period. But I admit that this would surprise me.


by Dave Thomer on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 11:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, yes,, but that's my point. (none / 0)

Its easier to "be in the mix" for a larger proportion of the delegates on offer when so many are on offer on Feb 5.

I simply do not believe that the top tier are going to empty their warchests in the first four, precisely because of the strategic advantage of being able to go on the air before Feb 5 if the other candidates in the top tier empty their warchests.

And I would not be surprised to see the race winnowed down to three or four by Feb 5.

But think about the impact of "the Scream" on the delegate count in 2008 instead of 2004. All those states where Dean is out of the race in 2004, because of the broader pacing, he is still on the race and picks up some delegates.

And all those easy delegates that Kerry picked up on the self-fulfilling prophecy that you shouldn't donate to someone else when the likely winner is clear because nobody else is going to donate to them ... he does not have a month to build toward Super Tuesday in March.

And Michigan, Washington, Maine, Tennessee, Washington, D.C., Nevada, Wisconsin, Utah, Hawaii, and Idaho haven't happened yet, before Feb 5, so fewer delegates are won in the Feb 5 Super Tuesday states.

I think it adds up to fewer delegates from those states in Kerry's tally, and more in the tally of two or three others.

And there are just too many states for the headline out of Feb. 5 to be how won which states ... it will be the delegate count. And that will make the race look winnable for two, and maybe three, candidates. And if it looks winnable for multiple candidates, then multiple candidates can fund raise.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:21:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, yes,, but that's my point. (none / 0)

But think about the impact of "the Scream" on the delegate count in 2008 instead of 2004. All those states where Dean is out of the race in 2004, because of the broader pacing, he is still on the race and picks up some delegates.

And all those easy delegates that Kerry picked up on the self-fulfilling prophecy that you shouldn't donate to someone else when the likely winner is clear because nobody else is going to donate to them ... he does not have a month to build toward Super Tuesday in March.

We may be thinking of different things here. I'm thinking of how Iowa/NH gave Kerry such momentum that he won 7 out of 9 of the primaries the first week in February 2004, despite storylines about Edwards' rise, Dean's fall, or Clark's third place NH finish. After that point, it was down to Kerry and Edwards, but even before then, Kerry had such momentum that it didn't really seem like a contest anymore.

And if one candidate manages to win a bunch of the big 2/5 primaries this time around, the disproportionate delegate count that goes to the winner would work against the split you're suggesting.

I see your point about the strategic advantage, but if someone loses in the early 4, all the ad dollars in the world might not help reverse that momentum. I mean, how many people were shocked when Dean burned through that huge war chest of his by the time NH was done?


by Dave Thomer on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:14:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, yes,, but that's my point. (none / 0)

I am thinking about it too ... but the immediate impact was built on by the succession of victories, so that by the time of the March Super Tuesday, the question was, "is Kerry good enough to be the nominee or not?".

Take away three weeks of that momentum building process, and the final result is still Kerry taking a lot of delegates ... but not as many as he did in the 2004 schedule.

Plus with the focus on the delegate count rather than the headline of each successive primary won, the second, and possibly third, place candidate automatically looks better. Comparing numbers helps number 2 and number 3 ... "X won and Y came second" converts sometimes narrow victories into a light switch ... X won, everyone else lost.

I'm not saying it makes a long campaign certain ... I'm saying it increases its likelihood. Of course, the last time there was a long primary campaign was the last time there was a black candidate with this kind of support, in 1988 with Jesse Jackson.

I'm thinking the scenario where it is most likely is if Edwards, Richardson and Obama each have positive headlines in January and Clinton is almost squeezed out and is fading ... because I don't think that she actually can fade completely out of contention in two weeks, especially with NY and NJ on Feb 5. That would seem to almost guarantee a four way division of delegates on Feb5.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, yes,, but that's my point. (none / 0)

OK, I think I see the disconnect now. You're suggesting that without the added momentum from the 7-of-9 on February 3, and the three weeks of momentum building up from that, Kerry would not have done as well in the later, delegate-rich contests in March.

My concern is that someone comes out of the early states the same way Kerry came out of Iowa and NH and has something proportionate to a 7-for-9 performance on February 5. I think the one-at-a-time nature of the first four contests could lead to such a snowball effect.


by Dave Thomer on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 01:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We may be grabbing different parts of ... (none / 0)

... the same elephant, if you are comparing it to a national primary all on the same day, and I am comparing it to a schedule like 2004 ... there is more of a slingshot effect than with an actual national primary, and less of a slingshot effect than with a schedule like 2004.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 01:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We may be grabbing different parts of ... (none / 0)

One thing I'm doing is thinking about a hypothetical national primary, yes.

But I'm also thinking that beefing up the number of primaries the first week of February could actually compress things even more than the 2004 schedule. If someone rides Kerry-like momentum to a 7-out-of-9-esque performance, then on top of the momentum from the number of wins would be even more momentum from the sheer number of delegates won that day.

If the 2/5 voters are really able to tune out the first four states, that won't happen. And I do hope that that's the result. But I'm wary.


by Dave Thomer on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 02:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's About The Sort of Campaign, Who It Reaches (3.00 / 1)

Dave is completely right:

I think the "large numbers of voters" is the key phrase there, though.
Obviously it's not about the length of time people are campaigning. If it were, your point would hold and that would be the end of it.  But it's not.

It's about the length of time that a significant nuimber of people are paying attention. For a substantial number of voters, they really don't get engaged until the last few weeks before the New Hamshire primaries, or even the weeks after that, when they see the candidates respond to adversity or success.  While it's certainly possible that this could change over time, I think it's highly unlikely to change overnight.

This isn't rocket science.  It takes time and repetition for large masses of people to alter their expectations and habits of paying attention.  Even a change that I might regard as ideal in the abstract would have to contend with this fact.  And I see the strucuture we have in front of us as far from ideal--not that I'm defending the old system, which was clearly not representative of the core Democratic constituencies.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 08:34:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit Complaints (none / 0)

Excellent post! I read your rebuttal and I agree with everything you said.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 06:01:50 PM EST

Depends on the Outcome (none / 0)

If we end up electing a decent progressive Democrat as President the system works and it's just great.  If we lose it sucks and we gotta have major changes.

Some things are just facts.  As long as states govern the process instead of parties or the feds it's going to be a loooooooooong campaign.  


by howardpark on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 06:15:33 PM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (none / 0)

Ya know....folks talk about baseball all year long, football...the same...

So why shouldn't the citizenry be engaged and into politics all the time?

I think we all know why so called 'goo-goo types' don't want that. If the electorate are mostly low-information RWAs then the propagandists and liars, not to put to polite a point on it, are just what is wanted by big money, big noise campaigns.

Let's talk politics all the time like people who take their responsibilities as citizens seriously.

As Epicetus famously said: 'Only the educated are free.'
.


by Pericles on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 06:40:22 PM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (3.00 / 2)

This is going to be a long reply because there is a lot to talk about here. I would like to offer a couple of counter arguments to Chris's post though and I will do so in the same order that he posted them.

1. Chris contends that the campaign can't be too front-loaded and too long. I disagree with his assessment. The fact that we are already four months in to the campaign process and almost a year away from the first primary tells me that the process is too long. It is too long because it is taking attention away from things that deserve our attention particularly local elections which occur this year. I also believe it is too long because the average spectator is going to be tired of it by this time next year, in other words it is going to make people more disillusioned and more cynical in regards to the electoral process. At the same time I can see the argument that it is too front loaded because the people who are getting more time to make up their minds (those that vote in later primaries) are going to have less of an impact on the process if they have any real impact at all.

2. I don't really disagree with what Chris is saying here although I would contend that believing that these problems exist does not automatically believe you view political activism as a bad thing.

3. The emergence of darkhorse candidates may not be an inherently good thing, however it is also not an inherently bad thing. I would have to give some serious thought as to which "system" is more favorable for darkhorse candidates. As in theory a long campaign should give them more time, however it also gives established candidates more time to build a lead and shut the door. One thing I am certain of however is that the system that allows for the most voices to be really heard is what I would prefer.

4. This is another argument that I find myself going back and forth on as Chris's arguments regarding the '04 election and regarding Dean and Bradley are somewhat compelling. However, I know from personal experience that paid media is completely capable of deciding non-presidential elections regardless of effective field campaigns. I wonder if the fact that this is not true on the presidential level is more a symptom of polarization (a bad thing) and/or increased media  attention (a good thing) than some ephemeral belief that the American public is not swayed by paid media.

I would also like to reply to one of the comments. Howardpark posted "If we end up electing a decent progressive Democrat as President the system works and it's just great.  If we lose it sucks and we gotta have major changes."

This is a completely absurd statement, I am sorry but there is no other way to reply to this other than to point out its absurdity. What you really just said is the system should be skewed in our favor because we are right. You are arguing for a  coorupt system which is exactly what we ought to be fighting against.

What we need is a system that is fair to democrats and republicans and more than that is fair to all credible candidates and to all voters. I am not sure that the system currently in place meets these standards and that is why I have a hard time agreeing with Chris, which is unusual for me.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 06:43:20 PM EST

respectfully disagree (none / 0)

1. You say the political cycle is too long, but how do you know? By what do you measure "too long"? Do you have evidence to show that the elongated cycle will result in increased voter apathy? More importantly, is there any evidence to suggest that the new primary schedule will still result in a 2-year presidential season in future cycles?

What made the season start so early this time was Bush, the election that saw the country turn so strongly against him, and the intense desire to replace him (combined with, on the Republican side, the "who the fuck can follow that act?"). So if the election cycle is only so long because people are so interested, doesn't that fly in the face of the claim that it will result in a disinterested electorate?

3. I support the notion that "more voices" is generally better than "fewer voices", but only because we currently have too few voices. You seem to be claiming that there is no such thing as too many voices, period. I'm not going to suggest consorship or government-sponsored favoritism for the handful of the most popular candidates, but seriously, would you want fringe candidates who represent 1% of the electorate to have anything close to the level of attention as the front-runners?

The question here is whether elections are for deciding who controls the level of power, or for getting your message out. The green party and the french Front National think they're about getting your message out; I think it's a bit of both. I think the current MyDD/netroots zeitgeist has decided that, though the message is important, control is trump, so I don't have a problem with the focus on the handful of candidates who actually have a chance, as long as opportunities exist to for interested parties to hear alternative voices.


Progress is Personal | PCCC
by msnook on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 01:08:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (3.00 / 1)

The only thing I would add on the topic of darkhorse candidates is that they are a good thing for society insofar as they give rise to the belief that anyone could grow up to be president. You don't need to be the establishment candidate, you don't need to have the most credentials, you don't need to have an enormous personal fortune to tap into. This doesn't mean that atypical candidates are never in the top tier, but the frontrunners certainly tend to have obscene amounts of personal wealth, furthering the belief that it is a prerequisite to becoming president. The fewer prerequisites that are apparent to those becoming acquainted with American civics, the more idealism we'll have in this country, for better or worse (I'd argue better).


by malkori on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 07:06:23 PM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (none / 0)

Frankly, I have had enough of these complaints, and I am writing this post to call bullshit on all of them (except for the part about the need for public financing).


Ah, you had a chance to call bullshit on the biggest load of all of them. Public financing for a presidential election is a waste of taxpayer money, ensures that there is a battleground mentality that focuses on 10 or so states, rewards a campaign no matter how incompetent their ideas are (i.e., I as a taxpayer have to fund a Republican campaign), and it locks out the supporters of the camp from participating in funding a 50-state campaign.

by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 07:08:59 PM EST

That's Ludicrous! (none / 0)

(1) Special interests generally get an ROI of anywhere from 100-1 to 1000-1 for their investments bribes in federal campaigns.  Cutting them out saves taxpayers enormous amounts of money.

(2) The battleground mentality is a product of the Electoral College--all we have to do is pass the compact that gives electoral votes to the popular vote winner, and that problem is solved.  All general election campaigns will be 50-state campaigns.

(3) Campaigns are already rewarded no matter how incompetent their ideas are.  But with special interests sidelined, their will be less intentional rewarding of actively malicious ideas.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 08:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If electoral votes are distributed ... (none / 0)

... proportionally, then almost every state becomes a battleground for an electoral vote.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:24:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's Ludicrous! (none / 0)

Just a WAG, but I think Jerome's post was facetious.


by RT on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 08:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's Ludicrous! (none / 0)

No, not at all.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 10:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's Ludicrous! (none / 0)

It's amazing when one challenges a sacred cow of liberals that think regulation answers everything, how hypothetical they all of a sudden become.

Rather than dealing with a solution that could effect the reality of the day-- people-powered & funded campaigns; you offer a solution that demands some totally other problem becomes fixed before your scenario of financing campaigns would even work to ensure a 50 state campaign-- death of the EV-- wow, that's some solution to the problem that federal financing of presidential campaigns creates!


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 10:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You Can Do Better Than That, Jerome (none / 0)

I can just smell the desperation when someone as smart as you reaches for the straw man.

It's ludicrous to assert that liberals "think regulation answers everythingm," first, because the only liberals who think that live in Rush Limbaugh's head, and second because public-funded elections are only secondarily concerned with regulation.

But the deeper problem is that you really don't understand the clean election concept--which uses a broad show of support (gathering small donations from a large number of supporters) to trigger public financing.  This dovetails quite nicely with the idea of "people-powered & funded campaigns," rather than being opposed to it.

Furthermore, my solution doesn't require fixing the Electoral College.  I was pointing out that you were conflating two different problems, and that the way to make every state a battleground has nothing to do with campaign financing.

Instead, it has to do with changing the rules, so that everyone's vote has the same weight in electing the President.  (One person, one vote!  Talk about a wild-eyed liberal idea!)


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 08:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You Can Do Better Than That, Jerome (none / 0)

the way to make every state a battleground has nothing to do with campaign financing.


Yes, and a campaign can magically wave a wand and bodies and infrastructure appear without being financed.


I'll stick with being progressive and believing people are the solution.

by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 04:22:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Kind of weak post (3.00 / 1)

I would agree that there is an incompatibility among the three, but I take it that is not your main point as you want to call 'bullshit on all three.'  As far as I can tell, you just attacked several straw men.

I personally, more or less, accept worries 1 and 2 and don't accept 3.

So in order.  Your first two points depend on the contradiction between 3 and 1 and so don't bother me.  But if I were to defend three I would talk about things you don't even mention, like the problem of having sitting senators and governors spending two years of their lives away from work and attempting to raise money.  I'm not saying one can't respond to that, but it seems to be the best argument for 3.  Something you don't even consider.  I doubt anyone is saying it's bad for Americans to think about this choice too much.

Your third point is irrelevant as far as I can tell or is a straw man.  Who would disagree that sometimes a front runner will be the best candidate?  But we might want to worry about our democracy if people are winning elections merely because of their name recognition 16 months before the election!  Maybe that's not happening, but the worries about money and front-loading are largely about a system rigged for the establishment.

Your fourth point is really silly, I mean, astoundingly silly coming from someone as smart as you.  It's like saying the Giants beat the Steelers 3 to nothing, therefore it was a waste of time to practice.  I mean there was only three points difference between the game at the start and the end!  

Let's see, how many votes would have flipped if Kerry had gone off air entirely?  Or had only half of Bush's money?  If you want to argue it wouldn't have made a difference go ahead, but the burden of proof, I think everyone would agree, is on you.  No one who is saying there is too much money in the process is saying the money is the sole determiner of the outcome; heck the first worry could stand even if they didn't think it was the biggest determiner of outcome. It could still have too much of an effect. You refuted another straw man.


by responsible on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 08:01:30 PM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading (3.00 / 1)

"Settled in February"?

The old scheme meant that candidates who did poorly in early primaries sometimes faded in money and votes in later primaries.  The new scheme means that the frotnrunners if evenly divided can lock up large numbers of votes each before the voters converge on a winner, leading to a primary season in which late primaries matter.  (Potentially, the convention itself matters.) (The Republicans have their convention really really late in the year, making life interesting for them if they need their convention to resolve who wins.)


by phillies on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 08:05:05 PM EST

Strong Claims, Slim Argument (3.00 / 2)

Chris,

I don't think you've done enough to support a really strong contention.  Namely:

The truth is, all of these supposed "good government" (goo-goo) complaints are based in a deep cynicism about the American populace and on the worthiness of political activism. Not to mention that there is an obvious contradiction at play. It really is just a bunch of whining, cynical bullshit.

In essence you're not only disputing their contentions, you're ascribing motivations and psychological states to a huge swath of very different people (with no evidence).  I think this is, at the very least, sloppy.

Furthermore, you do nothing to show that this is anything more than a case where reasonable can disagree.

I'm going to use your first point of an example of what I mean because I do not have the time to dissect all of your points and because I think it's sufficient to demonstrate the problems I see with this post.

Your wrote:

The campaign can't be both too long and too frontloaded. How can people complain about both frontloading and the campaign taking too long? Doesn't anyone wee the obvious contradiction in that complaint? If there has been intensive activist and media focus on the presidential election for a full year before Super Tuesday, then I think people have had plenty of time to make up their minds before entering the voting booth. In 2008, people will have more time than ever before to evaluate the candidates competing for the two major nominations. Then, because of frontloading, more people will have a say in determining the nominees than ever before. How is giving people more time to make up their minds, and then having more people meaningfully participate, bad for democracy in any way?

Let's dissect this.

1) The campaign can't be both too long and too frontloaded. How can people complain about both frontloading and the campaign taking too long? Doesn't anyone wee [sic] the obvious contradiction in that complaint?

There is no obvious contradiction in this.  In fact, I think both ideas are consistent with the observation that we will increasingly know more about the state of the affairs in November 2008 as we get closer to the date.  

Contrary to your assertion, talking about the 2008 general now does not in any substantive way give people more time to make up their minds. In fact, moving up the primary season gives people less time to make up their minds (with respect to their primary votes).  

You may be thinking that starting the campaigns early will generate a more robust discourse about Presidential politics, and that this more robust discourse might be more beneficial to the voters than a delayed primary season that has a less robust discourse. But you might also be incorrect.  

On a more concrete level, imagine that the CA-11 primary had all been held in 2/06.  I don't believe that Jerry McNerney would have won at that point.  The advantages Filson had over McNerney (which tapered off over time) would have been much greater had the primary been decided that early.  Furthermore, the grassroots energy McNerney generated would not have had sufficient time to snowball into the movement-like nature that carried him to victory.  And had McNerney lost the primary, I think it's likely that Pombo would still be in office.  

Granted, I could be wrong on all counts.  But the same types of considerations that lend themselves to my analysis about CA-11 could plausibly be applied to the Presidential race.  And even if I am wrong on all counts, it does not follow that I am wrong due to some latent cynicism.              

2) If there has been intensive activist and media focus on the presidential election for a full year before Super Tuesday, then I think people have had plenty of time to make up their minds before entering the voting booth.

The problem with this is two-fold.  

First of all, even if people may have plenty of time to evaluate the candidates, they're doing so against a state of affairs that is dynamic and subject to change over time.  Thus voters are making their decisions in an information-poor environment relative to a primary that is closer to the general.  

To be clear, my point is not one about electability.  However, if things people care about change in a way that is important to them, it's likely to affect their political choices.  This means that a certain subset of voters will make decisions in February that they would not have made had they been allowed to wait until (for example) June to cast their ballot.  Even if the political advantage accrued to my preferred candidate, I still think that the voters themselves would have been ill-served by the early primary.  

Secondly, you patently are not considering the possibility that it might be beneficial for voters and activists to be given time off.  There is serious burnout among my grassroots friends.  This is a huge problem from my perspective.  And voters may simply tune out as the political discourse becomes banal to them.   I think this especially problematic when candidates with large war chests are able to take advantage of the "first mover" phenomenon to define themselves now, before voters become inured.  

I think there is at least plausible reason to suspect that the marginal cost of reaching voters is higher for latecomers than the folks who right now look like front-runners (and who are given a huge amount of free media due to that fact).  Also, I think it's plausible that allowing the contest to shape up so early allows the perceived front-runners to collectively define the terms of the discourse.  Voters are not necessarily served by the debate being between Obama, Clinton, and Edwards.  More to the point, due to considerations mentioned in my response to the first part of your point #1, voters are not necessarily served by the debate being between these candidates circa April 2007 rather than say November 2007.        

3) How is giving people more time to make up their minds, and then having more people meaningfully participate, bad for democracy in any way?

First of all, I think you're simply begging the question here.  The question is whether more people really can meaningfully participate given the situation we now have.

Second of all, I wonder how it can possibly be the case that making the primary election earlier gives people more time to make up their minds?  Making a primary election earlier of necessity means people have less time to make up their minds because they have to vote at a time that is nearer than would otherwise be the case.  I know I'll have to vote in 2/07 instead of 6/07, and though it might be to my benefit, I certainly am not gaining time by being forced to vote four months earlier.    

In any event, I'm not necessarily arguing that you're wrong.  But I do think you've done precious little to actually argue for the claims you make about people with whom you disagree. And your "rebuttal" lacks the type of rigor I think it requires to license you're ability to claim that you're calling bullshit.  Even if you disagree with them, what makes you think it's unreasonable to for them to disagree with you?


Visit my blog Say No to Pombo
by Matt Lockshin on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 08:27:18 PM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (3.00 / 1)

As a "goo goo" myself, I find that my arguments have been badly mischaracterized or outright ignored in the above post.  

The "3 major complaints":
--Too much money in the process:  True
--Frontloading is dangerous to Democracy:  True
--The campaign starts too early, and takes too long:    I don't know any real "goo goo"'s who think this.  I think many of us believe that a long campaign is a good thing.

Regarding the initial "3 major complaints" and the legitimacy of each, the first two are legitimate concerns:
*Too much money discourages candidates who are not capable of catching the media's attention.  Too much money discourages voters (some of whom are not activits) who can only give small amounts of money.  The money problem noticeably contributes to the cynicism about politics in America.

*Frontloading or a national primary is (in my opinion) a huge problem.  The problem again deals with the media's attention and the ability to determine who can compete, and who cannot.  The second part of this problem is the money issue.  If a candidate can not be in 10 or 50 states at once, then he needs surrogates or media market buys to make up for her absence.  The money indicator only tells us which candidate is attracting the most big money support... the wealthy and the PAC.  A system in which the wealthiest and most powerful voters have "more speech" than poor voters is neither a fair system nor a good system.

*The campaign is starting earlier than normal.  To many people this is a shock, but a longer campaign is not on its own a bad thing.  I think the election process should take several months... we are trying to find a President after all...  The main concern is that the nomination process may start too soon (first debate next week) and the nominee will be all but selected by the media and the money before the first votes are cast.

---Again, the problem is that the current system [or at least the direction that the current system is continuing to evolve in] too heavily favors one or two individuals before any real policies are presented, any debates are had, or any votes are cast.
-If the election was held today, the winner would be Obama (few to no real policy stances) or Hillary (the $80 million-lb gorilla) because the media ignores virtually every other candidate.  In states where the candidates don't visit this is the MAIN/ONLY(?) source of information for many voters.

The "FOUR BROAD POINTS":

1.  "The campaign can't be both too long and too frontloaded"
--Well, yes and no.  There does appear to be a contradiction, but if we accept the premise that a long campaign should be measured by a long voting process (in other words, the first elections should be held this July, and then continue until February or March) then any shorter window of primary elections would be "too frontloaded".  If the election dates were pushed backed, but the campaign start date remained early, then the perception of "too long and too frontloaded" can and would exist.  

--Personally, I don't think the campaign is too long, but I do think it is horribly frontloaded/backloaded, and I am against a national primary day.  I think the first states (choose your favorite state) should hold their elections sooner and the campaign should be spread out.  This is our chance to hear from the candidates and we should demand that they speak to us and listen to us.  This would make the process fairer for both the candidates and the voters.

2.  "Political activism and public engagement in the political process are both good things"

Defintely good things.  I think the media is irresponsible.  The media has narrowed the candidates down to no more than 3 on each side.  This focus negatively affects the process.  Smaller candidates get no face time, and are often ignored.  While I agree that having 10 candidates in a debate is annoying, candidates need to be given a chance to present their case.  With the whole process experiencing an explosion of focus and growth, we are seeing the media FILTER out which candidates should be presented to the voters.
Who likes the media elite again?

3.  "The emergence of "darkhorse" candidates and late entries to the presidential race are not good things, in and of themselves"

Although I agree with this concept, I think this point was not particularly pertinent.  Part of the argument focuses against the "campaign is too long" meme, which I do not believe, and I do not know many "goo goo's" who do.

4.  "The American electorate is not a bunch of dupes for paid media"

No... the current problem is not paid media.  The problem is "free media" for select candidates.  This includes the hacks and the pundits who tell us how we should think and whom we should think about.  In 2008 the problem may become paid media...
But that isn't the real problem.  The real problem is that too many individuals will follow this free and paid media instead of going out and hearing the candidates or watching the debates.

If my state (connecticut) were to feature candidates doing forums or townhalls or debates, I know more of my friends would head out and participate.  But, that isn't happening, and instead they rely upon me or others (the media) to provide them with information... unfortunately, this information has gone through one or more filters.  And unfortunately, the media tells them that only Hillary or Obama can win... and that is what these voters talk about.

---Having a frontloaded schedule, too much money, or too much media decreases our ability to directly interact with candidates.

This in essence is what the good government argument comes down to:  The ability of voters to be properly informed.  The ability of voters to get candidates to interact with them and respond to their concerns.  And ultimately, to elect candidates who will genuinely govern on behalf of the voters.

Stop falling for the notion that a national primary day will somehow empower voters.  A staggered primary season with random states, or I prefer a rotating regional primary, would be far superior.

-Zen Blade


by Zen Blade on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 08:39:15 PM EST

Another dissenter from Chris' diatribe (3.00 / 1)

Chris, the points you raise are interesting, but to those of us who may disagree, I would have expected a more open, throwing out  your point of view for a debate, rather than calling the views of us who may disagree, a bunch of whining, cynical  bullshit.

But I do want to take your view seriously and I hope you take the rebuttals of myself and others more openly.

1. The campaign can't be both too long and too frontloaded.  I agree with Mark Lockshin above that they are not inherently contradictory.  The too long part refers to the time after the last election it takes for candidates to get into full campaign mode.  The frontloading part refers to how spread out the primaries are, whether the process begins next February, March, May or whatever.  The problems with each are different.

My problem with the too long campaign has less to do with campaigns themselves than with governance.  Canidates, especially ones who hold current elected office, really are not giving their full attention to either their constituents or the problems of the country.  Just view how much more productive an off-year Congress is compared to one that takes place during an election year.  I have worked in Congress and see the difference in behavior of politicians and the consequences to governance when a candidate is more focused on campaigning than legislating.  Having the process begin even a few months later I think would produce at least better thought in Congress and other representative bodies.

As for frontloading -- my problem is not merely about the darkhorse issue, but rather about giving candidates more experience in the rough and tumble world of a Presidential campaign.  More time to react to voting results in order to respond to the next primary, I believe, gives candidates more experience so that they are better when it comes to the national campaign.  Plus, if the story of the nomination lasts longer, more people, and the MSM, pay attention to the candidates, and hopefullythe issues, for a longer period of time.  So, it has nothing to do with activism and more about engagement and campaigning experience, at least for me.

2. Political activism and public engagement in the political process are both good things. I feel like this is a straw-man argument, especially on here.  People who believe the campaign is too long are not arguing against activism -- activism and engagement will happen with certain groups anyway -- and I don't think having an election system that has candidates focused on raising tens of millions of dollars in Q1 a year before the primaries gets the mass populous engaged -- it just gives more fees to fundraisers, means that campaign staffs will be beefed up earlier, requiring even more funds for when the media blitz occurs, and sucks out of the air intricacies of debate as candidates focus on sound bites rather than the complexities of policy.  I love activism and engagement, but after a year of trying to help candidates get elected to take over Congress, I would rather that we were focusing on the details of an intelligent withdrawal from Iraq, rarther than debating whether or not Hillary Clinton should apoligize for her vote -- or examine what would be a good framework for urban development would be rather than debate which candidate deserves or will get the black vote.  Activism and engagement have many forms -- not only electoral aspects.

3. The emergence of "darkhorse" candidates and late entries to the presidential race are not good things, in and of themselves.   Who says they are?  I agree with you on this point, which is why I prefer a longer primary season where someone who comes out of the blue in Iowa and New Hampshire would then really be tested under the light of media scrutiny and public attention.  If someone can survive that after coming out of nowhere, fine -- but I think it is this system, where people may get tired of seeing these candidates for a year and thus a late, late starter with personal cash can come in and, say, win Iowa and/or New Hampshire and then ride a very short honeymoon period to the nomination.  I think it is MORE likely that such a darkhorse could win with the longer campaign season and a front-loaded primary system.

4. The American electorate is not a bunch of dupes for paid media.  But the difference between the 4.7% the candidates were fighting over in the general, and those who participate in primaries is huge.  Most who vote in the primaries will support their party's candidate in November, so it is during the primary season that there is true choice for them.  John Kerry's campaign had to in the last weeks before Iowa use Teresa's money -- and my guess is that last infusion of cash did help him win in Iowa.  So while I agree with you about the general, money does have a large role to play in primaries.   It isn't about being duped, it is about organization, especially in Iowa. Of course, you also have to be a good candidate.

So, Chris, I hope you don' find this whiny and cynical -- I just happen to disagree with you.  I think the country and the party are better served with a shorter campaign season and drawn out primaries.  And if you disagree, I don't think it is because you are presenting bullshit or are whining -- it is just an honest difference of opinion.


by Ian in DC on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 09:10:53 PM EST

Another dissenter (none / 0)

After reading Chris's post I was set to write a point by point dissent, but this has amply been accomplished by those above.  Good on you all.

Let me instead provide a perspective.  A Pres campaign that starts 2 years before election day, as this one has, is too long and it will severely erode the amount of work that gets accomplished as the atmosphere in Congress becomes more and more entrenched in acrimony.  If, in one year, we find this not to be the case and that we have actually moved forward and completed legislation and avoided governmental gridlock (which includes getting bills signed or vetoes overridden), then the next time I am in Philly, I'll take Chris to Phil's game and I'll forsake my Cubs blue for Phil's red for the day.

Here in Puerto Rico, we have the most acrimonious and party driven politics that I (dare I say anyone?) have ever witnessed.  It is truly an "Animal Farm" situation within each of the parties.  As such, almost nothing gets accomplished in the legislature.  There is no compromise and there are no ideas that can be conceded as even "promising" if they come from another party (we have 3).  Nothing gets done, despite obvious needs (govt shut down last year when $ ran out, horrid education system, etc.).  If we were to campaign longer, even less would get accomplished.  So the longer and frontloaded campaign would be a disaster.  Even less would get done as everyone would be out on the trail, and labeling any non-candidate plan DOA, even within the party.  Cynicism would grow exponentially, etc. etc.

Also, I have worked as a volunteer on campaigns before, but I only have a limited amount of time and there is no way a campaign would get my grassroots time for more than a few months each year.  Someone else made the point that volunteers need time off. Damn right.


How is John McCain different than John Edwards?
by The lurking ecologist on Sun Apr 22, 2007 at 11:27:52 PM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (none / 0)

...the candidates who have the most large donors also have the most small donors.

It is also possible that those candidates with large donors are able to, because of their preëxisting financial advantage, attract more small donors. Just speculation.


by nvalvo on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 03:58:32 AM EST

Another "No Contradiction" Vote (none / 0)

What we have, in the current cycle, is an entire year where the media almost completely drive the narrative of the campaign, deciding all by themselves who gets coverage and of what sort.

(How many op-ed columns have been written about John Edwards' health care plan?  How many about his haircuts?)

While people aren't really paying that much attention, the media narratives will still manage to color each candidate in the minds of the voters.

Then they'll tune in more closely in January for whatever debates take place then (you can bet that the debates this year will receive cursory, superficial coverage), but by the time anyone gets to think about what they're hearing from the candidates themselves, it'll be February 6, game over.

That's been my story for awhile (it's driven my contention that the Iowa caucuses ought to be moved up to this June, with NH in September, and NV and SC later in the fall), and I'm sticking to it until I see a convincing rebuttal.  

I don't see a rebuttal of any sort in your post, Chris.


by RT on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 09:04:20 AM EST

Re: Bullshit Complaints About Frontloading and the (none / 0)

why don't we just start the nomination process the day after a new president is inaugurated and select the presidential nominee a year after the new president is inaugurated? this would give him or her 3 years to campaign. forget previous timetables and schedules. we don't need them Iraq, why should we need them for presidential campaigns?


by tomanderson13 on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 02:17:22 PM EST

Please help clarify new Dem proceedures (none / 0)

Please help to clarify this:

I have heard that, in 2008, there will be a major change in the Democratic Party's convention proceedures regarding presidential nominations, namely, that each state's delegates will be apportioned according to the percentage of the votes won by each candidate in the various state's primaries, and NOT (as before) on a "winner-takes-all" basis.

Can anyone tell me if this is true?

If it is, then it seems to me it's possible we could see the demise of the latter day "coronation" conventions, and a return to the old fashioned way of selecting a nominee.  If at least three candidates remain viable after "Super-Dooper Tuesday", and no candidate has accumulated more than 50% of the delegates, then the states which have not pushed their primaries up (e.g. Washington & Oregon) would suddenly become important.  

And, if the date of the convention arrived with no candidate having 50%, then it would almost certainly follow that there would have to be more than one ballot.  And then things would get interesting again, n'cest pas?


by jhseattle on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 02:43:20 AM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.