Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll Theory

Last week, my focus was on residual forces in Iraq. This week, it has been on what I have termed "the inflated poll theory" for Hillary Clinton in national primary preference polls (see here, here, here and here for the best examples). The theory is simple: Hillary Clinton is weaker stronger among all self-identified Democrats than she is among the Democrats who will actually make up the primary / caucus electorate. For all of the ink that has been spilled, and all of the papers that have been chased trying to prove or disprove this theory, the fact is that this theory can only be demonstrated with one type of test that is not currently available. In order to test this theory, in the same survey of voters, multiple polling organizations would need to include national primary preference results both for all registered voters who are self-identifying / leaning Democrats, and for all likely Democratic primary voters. If there is no noticeable difference between the two samples of voters across these polls, then my theory is wrong. If there is a noticeable difference, but it does not negatively impact Clinton's standing, then my theory is wrong. However, if there is a noticeable difference, and it does negatively impact Clinton's standing, then my theory is correct. And if my theory is correct, then pretty much every standing electoral assumption and media narrative about the current Democratic presidential nomination campaign is wrong. If Clinton's lead is accurately demonstrated to be either very slim or entirely non-existent, then this campaign would change dramatically.

To date, there has only been one poll conducted that serves as a meaningful test of my theory: the University of Iowa poll taken from March 19-31. One of the reasons I remain confident in my theory is that this poll does in fact demonstrate my central thesis: Clinton does worse among likely Democratic caucus goers in Iowa than she does among all self-identifying Democrats in Iowa. From the poll:
Clinton led among self-identified Democratic registered voters with 29.6 percent, followed by Edwards with 26.3 percent and Obama with 20.9 percent...

Results show that Edwards remains the leader among likely Democratic caucus goers, competing primarily with Clinton for caucus support. Edwards led by a substantial margin with 34.2 percent. Clinton followed with 28.5 percent, and Obama with 19.3 percent. No other candidate reached 2 percent. Twelve and a half percent of Democratic caucus goers were undecided.
In this poll, Clinton leads by 3.3% among all self-identified Democratic registered voters (the type of sample which virtually all national primary preference polls are currently using), but she trails by 5.7% among likely Democratic primary / caucus participants (the sample I am arguing that provides a more accurate view of the campaign for the nomination). Simply put, this first data point demonstrates my thesis: Clinton does 9% better among all self-identifying Democrats than she does among the likely Democratic primary and caucus electorate. Thus, the data to date indicates that national primary polls are inflating her advantage. Considering both a 9% shift, and that Clinton's current national polling advantage is 9.7% according to Real Clear Politics, it should not be hard to see why this is so important.

Now, there are several caveats. First, this is a poll of Iowa, rather than a national poll. It is entirely possible that likely Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa are more engaged in the campaign relative to all self-identified Democrats than they are nationwide. Second, Obama does not perform better in this poll among likely caucus goers than he does among all self-identified Democrats. Third, Edwards has long shown strength in Iowa, and this poll might be picking up on that. Fourth, it is only one data point, and thus not demonstrative of anything definitive.

Right now, this is still just a theory. However, it is an important theory to test, because accurate reports on who is currently ahead in the race for the Democratic nomination, and how much that person is ahead by, are crucial to developing an informed Democratic primary and caucus electorate. Whether or not we like it, and whether or not we think it should, information of this sort has an impact on the nomination campaign. As such, it would be a disservice to the Democratic primary and caucus electorate if we did not work to make certain they had accurate information on who is winning, and by how much that person is winning. I imagine there are quite a few Republicans out there who feel the same way about their party. Preliminary evidence indicates that this is a very legitimate area of inquiry into the accuracy of most national primary polls. It needs to be tested. Hopefully, someone will step up to bat and do just that.

Update: Another professional pollster, one which recently found Clinton in 3rd place in North Carolina (PDF), chimes in to agree with my theory. Read here for details.



Display:


Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

"It needs to be tested. Hopefully, someone will step up to bat and do just that."

Call me crazy, but what about 'us'?

What kind of resources would it take for MyDD (or a group including MyDD) to finance our own poll?

This would be a project that, if realistic, I would financial support (to the degree that I can). Do others feel the same way?


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:06:15 PM EST

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

It would be intetesting.  If it is indeed true that the base is more likely to vote in the primaries(for either party), then I just don't see Clinton being a favorite among the base.  She might be a favorite of voters at large, but those aren't the people that vote in the primaries.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

Exactly, Chris' theory is compelling and, if proven correct, could have serious ramifications for the media's narrative on this election.  If we could commission a legitimate polling organization, and the poll proves the theory correct, wouldn't all the papers carry it? Wouldn't the media talk about it? And wouldn't it raise the profile of this issue, MyDD and the blogosphere in general? Not to mention potentially reshaping the field.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

Honestly, I think it would be far more effectively if several known polling entities tested the theory. the last thing we need when testing this theory is for the test to be dismissed because of who conducted the poll. We would unavoidably face that hurdle if we did it ourselves.

Maybe as a last resort we can conduct our own, but not yet.
by Chris Bowers on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

Point taken. I assumed that credibility could be bought by paying a big-name polling firm to do if for us. Then again, I have no doubt that the results would be constantly qualified by saying that it was paid for by a lefty blog.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:51:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only One Way To Test The (none / 0)

Yeah exactly, i thought mydd was going to do a poll?  I was in favor of the NV poll.  If you want it done right, do it yourself.


by m g on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:12:33 PM EST

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated (none / 0)

"The theory is simple: Hillary Clinton is weaker among all self-identified Democrats than she is among the Democrats who will actually make up the primary / caucus electorate."

Am I going crosseyed, or did you get this backwards, Chris?

Other than that, fascinating post.


by BingoL on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:18:17 PM EST

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated (none / 0)

fixed.
by Chris Bowers on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

possible error in post (none / 0)

"The theory is simple: Hillary Clinton is weaker among all self-identified Democrats than she is among the Democrats who will actually make up the primary / caucus electorate."

Isn't your theory actually the reverse of this?


by arbitropia on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:19:23 PM EST

Re: possible error in post (none / 0)

yes, and I fixed it.
by Chris Bowers on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have worked the Iowa caucuses (none / 0)

"It is entirely possible that likely Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa are more engaged in the campaign relative to all self-identified Democrats than they are nationwide."

This absolutely correct.  I worked in Iowa for the 2004 campaign. My daughter was organizing county caucuses for John Kerry so I went out to help numerous times.

They are far more committed and engaged in the political process than primary voters.  It's an enormous time commitment between the caucus itself as well as attending the various candidate events. They take it very seriously.

John Kerry came up fast on Howard Dean and Edwards was coming up fast on John Kerry.  He has very grounded support there.

I can not reiterate it more, but disciplined organization is the key to Iowa for anyone.  


by debcoop on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:42:01 PM EST

hard to prove but worth while (none / 0)

Chris - You make a very good point about the squishiness of primary polling results. There are some very good comments about this on the website Pollster.com.  Basically they point out that there isn't a very good way to screen for the most likely primary voters, and it's ten times more difficult in caucus states like Iowa. So the poll results are pretty useless right now.

However, if we could find a polling company who has a solid method for identifying the most likely primary voters, we should do a poll in one or more of the first states, which will have an inordinate impact on candidate fortunes going into the big kahuna of Feb 5th.


by dwightmc on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:44:25 PM EST

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

I just read an article on Solid Politics.  It said that Bill and Carvelle are hyping a Gore run because when Gore is in the polling, Hillary's numbers are higher so she looks inevitiable.
When Gore is removed, Obama closes in on her quit abit.  
They think with Gore in the polling the vote is being split between Obama and Edwards.  This makes Hillary look strong.
Just something you may want to think about with your  polling theory.
by vwcat on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 02:44:45 PM EST

At first blush, however, this is orthogonal to ... (none / 0)

... the theory.

That is, if the theory is correct, there would be a similar swing between likely primary voters and all self-identified Democrats whether Gore is in or out ... the difference is that with Gore out, there is no clear front runner, with Gore in, Clinton has a moderate lead that the inclusion of unlikely-primary-voters would inflate to a big lead.

But if part of the push to get Gore in is an effort to help Hillary, that would seem to reduce the prospect of Gore entering.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 03:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

The cost of doing a poll like this is at least in the $10,000 range, probably including buying the sample.  Of course, if you created one from the ground up with 100 MyDD people volunteering to each get 5-6 responses off of the sample list, it could be possible. . . .

How do you screen for likely voters?  You ask them:  "As you may know, there will be a presidential primary in your state on ( ).  Since this is a primary, most people will not vote.  How about you?  Would you say you are very likely to vote, somewhat likely to vote, chance 50-50 you'll vote, or are you not likely to vote?"
Then you only take the likely voters and tell the rest thank you for your time.

A couple other ways to screen for likelihood of voting is to ask people if they can identify where their polling place is (this is how Gallup does it, but this early out that just isn't decided yet), or get their previous track record if they've voted in past primaries (this is problematic because turnout will likely be larger this time around because of the extra interest created by the candidates and the very competitive field).

The problem you run into this early asking about likelihood of voting is it's WAY too far in advance.  Another problem is cost.  Assuming Chris is right (I think he is), you would have to screen out that extra 5-10% of your sample who are only marginally likely to vote and find even more responses.  This costs both time and money, something most media polls simply don't want to do.  

And considering the average journalist reads most polls about as well as I do a schematic to build a nuclear reactor, you get garbage in, garbage out.   Less effective poll + Less informed analyst = "HRC and Giuliani may as well be anointed the nominees right now"

Most media polls start to screen for likely voters come October of an election year, so I doubt we'll get any good public information for another 6 months at least that tests this theory.


With tongue planted firmly in cheek,
by whillice on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 03:23:14 PM EST

Re: The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

Thanks a lot for the info. The only number I was able to find was $15,000.00. Ouch.

Out of curiosity, would a 'volunteer' poll be considered legitimate? Somehow I doubt it, but it could still be a lot of fun!


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

I doubt it would be considered "legitimate" but neither are blogs seen as legitimate journalism nor would the proposed myspace/facebook primary vote be legitimate: but people might pay attention.  Personally, I think it would be wasteful to do this to prove that Hillary's numbers are inflated by 5 points.  Response from pollsters? "That's called your margin of error."


With tongue planted firmly in cheek,
by whillice on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:50:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

Yeah, without a series of polls we would have pretty weak legs to stand on. Anyone want to dish out $100,000 for the cause? :)


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

From Public Policy Polling, a regional IVR polling company in North Carolina...

"At Public Policy Polling we go about primary polling completely differently. We don't use subsets of a general electorate poll, but conduct completely separate primary polls. We sample only households that have a history of voting in party primaries. That way we know we are only reaching those likely to vote in a primary.

Therefore, I suggest that the best primary polling would be those conducted using a sample based on voter history. Unfortunately, that type of sampling is unavailable nationally-- only about 3/4ths of states have that information available."

http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/ 2007/04/do-national-polls-inflate-hillar y.html


by KickinIt on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 03:24:00 PM EST

Demographics? (none / 0)

It seems obvious that Caucus states select for the most engaged and politically-interested people. Also, older people, and the party-faithful, i.e. people who vote every time. Finally, non-presidential election years select even more towards the core. Chrs's stats show Obama's support droping off as the data is restricted to caucus goers, which may be a result of Obama receiving higher support from younger voters.

Colorado has both a caucus AND a primary. This gives you a pretty good way to measure these effect (from past election cycles). This history shows that the Party Establishment (elected officials, donors and Party officials) are more moderate, the Party faithful are very Liberal, maybe even California-esque, and the Primary voters are closer to the general public.

An Insurgent, even highly-liberal candidate can get a lot of support in the caucus, enough to get first listing on the Primary slate. But then the more moderate candidate shows better in the runoff, i.e. the Primary. You also see this effect in the Party Platform.

Republicans

The Republicans have this same problem with their extreme right-wing. McCain is clearly talking to this base. All his nut-case comments make sense if we realize he is trying to lock-in the die-hard 30% who still believe in Bush. That 30% is probably over 50% of the Republican Party base at the Primary level, and 66% in the caucus situation.


There's more of us than there is of them.
by MetaData on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 03:55:38 PM EST

Re: Demographics? (none / 0)

Your McCain comment makes a lot of sense - and if we follow through on Chris' theory, I would assume McCain would improve in numbers, while Giuliani would drop. That's under the assumption that the party faithful find Giuliani laughable, and his support is coming from a lot of 'not-really-so-likely-to-vote' voters, who are (in theory) more influenced by celebrity than ideology.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:30:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah but this year Obama (none / 0)

supporters are the most energized about a candidate as exemplified by crowds and donors, sure young voters generally don't show up but it's usually because they don't connect with any of the candidates, not because they are lazy ect...they did show for Kerry in 2004 and look at Jesse Ventura in Minnesota's governers race, Obama should actually do better in caucuses because the most likely voter is someone who care enough to donate, volunteer and attend a rally. I wouldn't bet against all these "Obama voters" not showing up becuase in addition to the support the Obama people also have the money now to organize thier voters as I saw firsthand last night.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:29:02 PM EST

Re: yeah but this year Obama (none / 0)

I think that not voting has a lot to do with having never voted. We make take it for granted, but to those who have never voted it can seem like a harrowing ordeal.
How do I approach my boss for time off? Where exactly is my polling place (usually some school you have never been to)? What do I do when I get there? Do I need to bring anything? What if I have an misdemeanor on my record?  Is there a dress code? Do I need a No. 2 pencil? And what the hell is Prop 99 about anyway?

And all of this is AFTER you've just registered for the first time and tried desperately to understand that dense voting guide that came in the mail.

I think it is this attitude that ultimately keeps many people from the polls. Which is why I strongly believe we should vote more often (annually) and Election Day should be a national holiday (or at least on a weekend).

Anyway, I hope you are right, and this election marks a turning point in voter turnout. I'm just not getting my hopes up.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 04:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only One Way To Test The Inflated Clinton Poll (none / 0)

Actually I think your caveats are quite important for the support of your theory in these numbers.

self-identified Democratic
Clinton 29.6%  
Edwards 26.3%
Obama   20.9%
Other   23.2%

Likely Democratic caucus goers
Clinton 28.5%
Edwards 34.2%
Obama   19.3%
Other   18.0%

Difference
Clinton -0.9%
Edwards +7.9%
Obama   -1.6%
Other   -5.2%

Obama suffers a slightly larger drop then Clinton. But only Edwards has any significant movement mainly coming from other sources.

If it was Clintons data that was polluted then all other candidates should improve their numbers or you'd expect a significant drop with her support. But all candidates except Edwards stay stable, the minor candidates as well. (Each under 2%) This points to Edwards as under represented in polls of self-identified Democratic not Clinton being over represented.

I still find your theory quite persuasive but this poll points to quite another and interesting anomaly


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 05:28:12 PM EST


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