Right Now, General Election Polls Are Useless Indicators Of Electability

Over the past couple of months, I have seen a lot of people on MyDD trumpeting the general election performance of Barack Obama or John Edwards in recent polls compared to that of Hillary Clinton as a rationale to support Edwards or Obama during the nomination campaign. I am not a Clinton supporter, but to be blunt I think that line of reasoning is a load of crap. Simply put, the relative performance of our top-tier candidates in general election polls against Republicans in early 2007 is not even close to a reliable indicator of their relative performance in such polls in eight, twelve or sixteen months. If you don't believe me, just consider the relative performance of John Kerry and Hillary Clinton against Republican opponents in early 2004 and mid-2006:

FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. Jan. 21-22, 2004. N=900 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
Bush 49%--42% Kerry
Bush 52%--39% Clinton

I hate having to use a Fox poll to demonstrate this point, but only Republican propaganda outlets are obsessed with Clinton enough to still have been polling her vs. Bush in the 2004 election cycle even after the Iowa caucuses has taken place. Still, my point is that at the start of the 2004 primary / caucus season, Kerry performed several points better against Bush than any other Democrat, including Hillary Clinton. Now, let's see how they performed relative to McCain two and a half years later:

Time Poll conducted by Schulman, Ronca & Bucuvalas (SRBI) Public Affairs. July 13-17, 2006. N=902 registered voters nationwide.
McCain 49%--47% Clinton
McCain 52%-42% Kerry

Gee, that changed, didn't it? Kerry started by performing six points better in a general election than Clinton, and finished by performing eight points worse.

The cause of this shift is obvious. At the start of the 2004 primary / caucus season, Kerry had a very favorable national image, but also one that was generally undefined and highly mutable. Over the next several months, Republican attacks against him severely lowered his favorables, and helped create an increasingly negative--and static--image of the man. Thus, while at first it seemed that Kerry was more "electable" than Clinton, by the end of the campaign he was probably less electable than her. Certainly, he was less "electable" by the time 2006 rolled around.

General election trial heats are not static over any great length of time because the national images of the candidates imvolved--including Clinton--are not static over any great length of time. To argue that Democratic candidate x is more electable than Democratic candidate y because the former scores a few points better than the latter on general election polls taken nineteen months from Election Day is the height of sophistry and folly when it comes to polling analysis. There is simply no reason to believe that, especially when Democratic candidate x has a far less static national image than Democratic candidate y (as is the case with both Edwards and Obama), and when Democratic candidate x has not dealt with anywhere near the level of attacks s/he will face in a general election setting (as is the case with both Edwards and Obama). To rephrase Gertrude Stein, there simply is no there there. Polling data on the relative Democratic candidate performance in the general election means absolutely nothing right now in terms of actual candidate performance in the general election. To think otherwise is simply delusional.



Display:


Critical to define yourself... (none / 0)

...rather than let the other side define you.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:21:59 PM EST

So, if, say, (3.00 / 3)

Edwards is beating Guliani and McCain and Fred Thompson by ten points, and Clinton is tied with them, does it mean Nothing? I'm not being snide, I'd really like to know if, in your opinion, info like this should be completely dismissed, and when we should stop dismissing it?

Also, while I agree that Edwards's image is less static than Clinton's, which is set in very unflattering puke green stone, people seem to forget that he's been on a national ticket and has, to some degree, been exposed to the rightwing smear machine.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:22:15 PM EST

Re: So, if, say, (none / 0)

All polls measure is a point in time. Who knows what will happen once the dynamics of the campaign gets under way.

I think Chris's comparison is a little dis-ingerious.

1. Final vote tlly: Bush 50.8- Kerry 48.3 2.5 margin.

2. Many people were very dis-appointed in the Kerry campaign and did not want him to be the Democratic nominee in 2008. I believe it was this factor rather than the Republican defining Kerry.

3. Do you really think Clinton could have defeated Bush in 2004? If she thought she could, she would have jumped into the race.


by BDM on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, if, say, (none / 0)

Then she had to prepare in 2002, She might have thought 2 years in the senate was too soon. Certainly after 8 years of another clinton.

And she made a promise to the people of New York that she would serve out her full term. Perhaps she wanted to honor her word. Politicians aren't always as two dimensial as they're made out to be. It might just be possible that Hillary isn't as opportunistic as people believe her to be.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, if, say, (none / 0)

I find that hard to believe. Her whole goal was to be in a position to run for president. She did not want to run against an incumbent president

She lead all of the polls and had a network of fund raisers.

Bobby Kennedy also promised to finish out his term during the 1964 race, but jumped into the presidential race in March of 1968, That too was a war just like 2004.


by BDM on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:53:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nixon won. (none / 0)

And Kerry did way better then Humphrey.

If HRC just wanted to be president she could easily stepped late in the race to try and take away the nomination from the Democratic frontrunner  as soon as the incumbent showed that he was weak. Just like Bobby did with McCarthy.

Bobby was a visionary and the last true liberal hero but also a right bastard and opportunist at times.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 05:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, if, say, (none / 0)

She pledged not to run in 2004 and kept her pledge. If she had run I think she would have defeated Bush as would any other Democratic nominee. If Kerry had been more aggressive he could have defeated Bush.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, if, say, (none / 0)

I don't think so. She has never been in a tough race. The Bush campaign would really get their base out even greater than against Kerry.

She had no way of distinguishing herself against Bush on the war. Remember Bush had a 50 % approval rating and that was pretty close to his final vote.


by BDM on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:28:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, if, say, (none / 0)

Also likeability was an important factor and Kerry wasnot very likeable just as Hillary is not likeable. Bush was seen as likeable.

Today is a different story has his support has collapsed.


by BDM on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, if, say, (none / 0)

Some but not anywhere near the levels of Clinton. The smearing of Edwards right now seems more vitrollic now then it was then. Back then it didn't rise above, he's a lawyer! hurr hurr.

Compair that with the Ann Coulter remarks this time around. And Hillary has gotten that sort of smears for close to 15 years now. And still she polls even against unsmeared candidates.

But At the moment I do think though that Edwards will be more resiliant then Obama against the Gop smear machine. Partly because he's had reasonable cross-over appeal for six years now. While Obama has been unkown for longer and less time to build up a lasting reputation


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Looks like a typo (none / 0)

I think you wrote "Bush--Kerry" when you meant "Bush--Clinton" on that first Fox poll cited.


by Jay R on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:29:16 PM EST

Re: Looks like a typo (none / 0)

fixed
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cris I disagree (3.00 / 1)

 I live in Nevada and anecdotally I see what the polls show, that a large % of people will never vote for Hillary, end of story. If you think it's not a big deal that in a time of unprecedented democratic edges in polling that our "presumptive nominee" has half the country both not "liking her" and pledeging to vote against her than I think your the delusional one.

  The 2000 and 2004 election cycles were basically fought at a time of parity beteen the two parties, Bush's favorables were about 50% so either Kerry was going to win or lose a very close race no matter what and he wasn't the most"likeable" guy in the world either, I don't accept the premise that in 2008 we start with 48% against us or that it is inevitable that either Obama or even Edwards can be made as unpopular as Hillary is with the nation as a whole and that is A MAJOR ISSUE in the nominating process.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:49:12 PM EST

Re: Cris I disagree (none / 0)

in georgia this is the case, sometimes.


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cris I disagree (none / 0)

Anecdotally Howard Dean was supposed to be the Democratic nominee and defeated George Bush in 2004. In reality it did not happen because his campaign imploded.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tasty idea (none / 0)

It might be very easy to pull back the veil and find that there is a statistical trend towards these polls being poor indicators. what a wonderful idea it would be to do a spreadsheet on past poll performance

now as I think of it, what about error? Which pollster has the greatest error? Is there a bias in the error?

i can't remember now, but wasn't it a yale economics prof. that did a formula which indicated who will win a general election given the state of the economy and some other factors?

hmm..


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:21:23 PM EST

Polls are snapshots, but significant (3.00 / 1)

Especially with someone as well known as Hillary Clinton,  her unfavorables should be terrifying to Democrats still considering her as a nominee.

If she were an incumbent, with negatives at 52 (in the latest Gallup) and 50 percent vowing to vote against her no matter who the opponent she'd be considered vulnerable.

I agree that with Edwards and Obama their general election prospects may change up or down depending on how they define themselves (and let themselves be defined) in the next 9 months.   But Hillary at her very best will need luck (and a weak opponent) to be able to win a narrow general election victory.

That is something worth considering.


by AlanR on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 05:15:53 PM EST

You are wrong, I think (none / 0)

Hillary is unelectable because of her persona, and 48% of Americans have stated that they will not vote for her under any circumstances. That is a totally different thing than your general elections polls.

People don't like Hillary because she has no charisma, no charm, no humour and no warmth (I base this on my own impression as well as on people I have talked to). All the ads in the world cannot change that fact. It's a personality issue.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 06:05:00 PM EST

Re: You are wrong, I think (none / 0)

Bush has a lot of Charisma--to people in middle america. Red America wants to have a beer with him. I think a lot of people are upset at how the country is run and are not going to look for someone with just charisma this time. It might be a year for competance.


by maxstar on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 07:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton's qualities? (none / 0)

Clinton is...smart, tough, street-wise, calculated, wonkish, worldly, ambitious, triangulating?   All admirable qualities in my opinion!

In fact, Love it!  LOVE IT!  Thank you, I'll have another!


by JoeCHI on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 12:37:24 PM EST

Its not all about Senator Clinton (none / 0)

Take these to the bank -

- "I live in Nevada and anecdotally I see what the polls show, that a large % of people will never vote for Hillary, end of story."

Same in Ohio. AM radio has stolen too many minds to ever go back.

- Especially with someone as well known as Hillary Clinton,  her unfavorables should be terrifying to Democrats still considering her as a nominee.

Should be, but they aren't yet. Too many consultants still busy cashing checks.

Right Now, General Election Polls Are Useless Indicators Of Electability

Thanks, Sherlock. Now how about a winning lottery number?

-GFO


by GuyFromOhio on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 12:44:40 AM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.