National Primary Poll Averages

I am a big believer in polling averages, which over the 2004 and 2006 elections were excellent predictors of outcomes in statewide elections. However, in the Democratic primary season, the emergence of three distinct types of national primary polls are rendering polling averages more problematic. Since Obama's fundraising announcement, we have seen a) three polls that include the entire field but exclude Gore, b) three polls that include both Gore and the entire Democratic field, and c) three polls that include only Clinton, Obama and Edwards (plus another poll that might be type a or type c, but it isn't clear). Averaging polls across these three types produces questionable results, since they are all quite different from one another. Figuring out the current state of public opinion within the national Democratic primary electorate is further complicated by the lack of information on candidate standings in early states, by the different (typically inaccurate) ways polling firms define the Democratic primary electorate, and by the greatly different degrees to which these polls push undecideds. For an election watcher such as myself, this is all very frustrating. I just want to know where the campaign currently stands, and polling firms are not making that task very easy.

To try and sort this all out, here are the current averages for each of the three different types of national polls conducted entirely from April 5-15:

National Polls With the Entire Field But Without Gore
Poll Gallup, 4/15 Rasmussen, 4/12 ARG, 4/12 Mean
Clinton 37% 32% 36% 35%
Obama 29% 30% 24% 27.67%
Edwards 19% 16% 19% 18%

National Polls With the Entire Field Plus Gore
Poll Gallup, 4/15 CNN, 4/12 LA Times, 4/9 Mean
Clinton 31% 30% 33% 31.33%
Obama 26% 26% 23% 25%
Edwards 16% 12% 14% 14%

National Polls With Only Clinton, Edwards and Obama Included
Poll CBS, 4/12 LA Times, 4/9 Time, 4/9 Mean
Clinton 39% 42% 32% 37.67%
Obama 24% 32% 26% 27.33%
Edwards 21% 20% 25% 22%

There is also a CNN poll showing Clinton 36%, Obama 28%, and Edwards 15%, but it is unclear whether that poll only includes those three candidates, or whether it includes the entire field without Gore. I think it is the latter, but I don't want to include it in the polling averages until I know for certain.

These three charts produce three different margins between Clinton and Obama: 7.33%, 6.33%, and 10.33%. It would not be accurate to average these three gaps, since some polls are included in more than one of these averages. Further, I still maintain that many of these polls are pushing undecideds too hard (which probably inflates Clinton's lead), and that all of them are further inflating Clinton's advantage through the inclusion of too many low-information, unlikely primary voters. I would love it if every firm just included the entire field without Gore, did not push undecideds, and screened (at the very least) for likely general election voters. I would love it even more if there were at least a few more polls of early states, which of course also followed those methodological guidelines.

Using the data available, it is very difficult to figure out where the race stands. Clinton probably has a very slight edge nationally, but with Obama's money and donors, Edwards's strength in Iowa, and the current situations in New Hampshire and South Carolina (which are unclear and probably tied), I can't emphasize enough that any lead by Clinton is extremely slight. Anyway, we still have nearly nine months before the start of the primary / caucus season, so figuring out whether or not Clinton or Obama leads right now may not really be all that important. However, if I was doing a cattle call, I would think long and hard about putting Obama at #1. We will find out more when the next round of early state polls are released.



Display:


Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

Interesting to see that Obama will be hurt the least by a Gore entrance into the race.  


New Mexico politics from the local perspective.
by fbihop on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 01:35:39 PM EST

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

That's definitely the most striking thing about the juxtaposition of the three polling groups.  Overall Obama has the most static support. He hardly drops with Gore added, but even when the race is reduced to the top three he only moves up 2%.

It makes me wonder how seriously we should take the polls that use "second choice" questions, which Obama scores high in.  If those questions are valid I would think as the field is narrowed he would rise faster.


by MassEyesandEars on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

At the risk of repeating myself (none / 0)

Will someone please explain to me why liberal bloggers insist on portraying Hillary as a frontrunner? It's not false confidence with which I say, she's got no chance. She's both a centrist and a bad general election candidate. Obama is going to take away much of her support among African-Americans, and Edwards is going to start to trounce her among the white working class. And moderates don't like her, of course. What's her constituency? The elderly and suburban women? That a nomination does not make. To say nothing of the electability issues, like the fact that almost half the country says they won't vote for her under any circumstances. The two things that people cite as her advantages--money and national polls--don't mean much, and in any case, Obama has caught her in both!

Sorry for the rant, but there's so much poliitcal analysis here on liberal blogs, much of it excellent, and it frustrates me that it doesn't acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes. Are Bowers, Kos et al going to feign surprise when the bottom falls out of her campaign, as we all know it will? Is it caution that stops them from saying the obvious? Is it a reverse sexism? An aversion to triumphalism? A need to be a "professional" assessor of all the data?

Sorry, but I just can't believe that anybody with any sort of poltiical sense thinks she has a chance. She's toast.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 01:38:09 PM EST

Re: At the risk of repeating myself (3.00 / 2)

"Sorry, but I just can't believe that anybody with any sort of political sense thinks she has a chance. She's toast."

Well, $26 million seems to disagree. That plus, every poll ever taken for this primary. That may not mean anything to you - which I find a little confusing - but it means a lot to likely voters and campaign contributors. Last I checked, they are the ones that decides who wins and loses, not rational thought or common sense.

She may not be the best choice, and she may not win, but she is anything but "toast".


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 01:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, and No (3.00 / 1)

You may be right that the bottom of the Hillary campaign will eventually fall out, but it hasn't happened yet.  If the question is: where do the candidates' races for the nomination stand today, Hillary is either at the top or a close second, by any reasonable reading of the data.  (Edwards, whom I support, is clearly in third and may become a major beneficiary of your Hillary collapse, if it occurs.)

That, in my view, is why liberal bloggers insist on portraying Hillary as a frontrunner, because today she is.


by Arthurkc on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:01:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough (none / 0)

She is today--just. I suppose, as Rudy is on the other side--
but isn't there room for logical prognostication, which doesn't perpetuate the conventional wisdom that it's hers to lose?
by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My point is (none / 0)

Hillary uses the perception of her inevitability--or at least her probability--to win support and raise money. I don't understand why the netroots, of all places, helps her advance this meme.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My point is (none / 0)

David, Have you actually read the plethora of posts on MyDD that use the Hillary inevitability with incredible amounts of snark and also the posts that have said that the Fundraising numbers pretty much destroyed that meme?   None of the front pagers and most of the posters here think she is inevitable and have been saying that since last year.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, I guess I haven't (none / 0)

Uusally the topic bores me, but all of a sudden it interested me.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I guess I haven't (none / 0)

The maybe you should stop trolling up comments threads on this topic until your information level increases.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:27:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Uh, Chris (none / 0)

I was (I thought obviously) joking about not having read posts on this topic. And I stand by my criticism, which, whatever you may call it, is hardly "trolling."

But then I don't believe in "trolling"--a concept, as I've said, that used to shut down debate and enforce "civility."

Liberal bloggers constantly refer to Hillary as the frontrunner, which strikes me as stupid both analytically and strategically.

Right now Kos has a post up in which he says Hillary is the frontrunner.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Certainly, But That Is Another Question (none / 0)

We can all spin out what we see -- or hope to see -- in our crystal balls.  My crystal ball, informed by my predilections, tells me that Hillary has peaked and will slowly ebb all the way through February 5.  It is going to be difficult for her to find many more $2,300 contributors; her position on the continued occupation of Iraq will drain support as the surge is seen to fail and voter desire for a troop "redeployment" grows into a demand for withdrawal; her fumbling, hesitant, and condescending stump-style will become better known; and, importantly, her unwillingness to be specific, about anything but above all about health care reform, will erode whatever wonk-factor she may command.

So, I agree that my prognistication is aligned with yours, but she is still a frontrunner, and the nomination IS hers to lose, and she seems to be doing fairly well in losing it.


by Arthurkc on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Certainly, But That Is Another Question (none / 0)

I don't think it's a different question. The act of judging candidates' chance of success inherently includes analysis; otherwise, what's there to argue about? Just punch poll numbers and $$$ amounts into a computer program, and it'll tell us who's on top.

We all makes judgments based of what we think and argue are important: polls, numbers, policy, personality, temperment, etc., and I'm frequently surprised that liberal bloggers take all this into account and still regard her as the frontrunner.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At the risk of repeating myself (none / 0)

well she has a chance but understand the hyperbole, the most toxic thing to her chances is her national numbers, If I were Hillary I would focus on trying to improve my image in the counrty as a whole because if she's still a "frontrunner" in January alot is going to be made of the difinately won't vote for Hillary polls and dem caucus goers will factor that into
thier thought process.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At the risk of repeating myself (none / 0)

Did you read a different post than the rest of us?  The crux of Chris's post is that Hillary is probably not in the lead or is leading slightly and that the polls are flawed.  Seems pretty obvious to me his points.

Plus, to point out, the media really annoints the front runner.  That doesn't mean that the frontrunner has the best chance of victory, it means that at this point in time, if the election were held today, the front runner would have the best odds of winning.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What does that mean? (3.00 / 1)

"if the election were held today"?

Does that mean Iowa? Cause Edwards would win, if it were held today, and then he'd be off and running.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What does that mean? (none / 0)

But Hillary and Obama have him beat in money and polls in the big states just a few weeks later.

A win in Iowa but a second or third place in NH might be thought by some as a stumble, and with the big states right up, People might think he won't recover in time and pull out...

Don't bet all on Iowa, plenty of times the candidate that lost Iowa won the nod.

Edwards is in a good place to build upon, but right now HRC and Obama both have that place as well.

And more money for those big media markets.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

What this tells me is that there is alot of bouncing around right now and besides, all pollsters called different people.
I dont' think any solid polling will be out until mid to late summer.
I, like you, think the race is three way and close.
by vwcat on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 01:48:54 PM EST

On voter screens (none / 0)

Here's a 2004 mystery pollster article with details from many pollsters detailing how they screen for likely voters in general elections.

I can understand limiting the list of candidates as I see increased hangup rates on long questions. An activist will put up with longer questions to vote for their choice, while less motivated respondents will hang up. This creates bias inverse to the '90% of registered voters are likely voter' screens that you have commented on lately. I call voters whose voting history indicates they will vote, but even among that population, there are different degrees of enthusiasm.

Case in point, I did a poll last month for the Burnt Orange Report that tried to ask for a second choice from the full list, but that made two long questions in a row. Too many hung up to be able to use the second choice data, but I will comment that the respondents who chose one particular candidate hung up at a markedly higher rate than all the other respondents.


by IVR Polls on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 01:57:27 PM EST

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (3.00 / 1)

As I continue to watch this race closely, I have to think that Hillary is already past her sell date. Her campaign was almost Republican in its heavy-handed attempt to assume an air of inevitability, with early announcement, big money, big name, big dog, every single way to crowd everybody out of the field except for a few vanity candidates.

With Obama drawing the crowds, pulling in both big money and huge numbers of smaller donations, Hillary  will see her share of the black vote go from huge to minimal, can't draw male votes, and has that stench of waning momentum and unelectability. Obama will bring huge numbers of young voters and disaffected voters to the polls.

Primary turnout will be extraordinary, just as the early focus on the primaries and the fund-raising have been unprecedented, so I think we go back to a scenario where all of the pollsters will have trouble trying to come up with a likely voter model.

Now that Hillary has failed to achieve early dominance, the race remains open for at least Clinton, Obama, Edwards, and Richardson. Debates, appearances, and the ongoing campaign will continue to add points to everybody except Clinton.

I don't know how this turns out, but I just think that American voters are ready for a big change, and I think Senator Obama has the biggest chance to be the transformational candidate.


by Aeolus on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:00:14 PM EST

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

you nailed it IMHO


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

I predicted that Obama would be the next president in 2005, and I'm as confident in that prediction as I ever was.

I agree with your assessment of Clinton. A slow ebb, not a sudden plunge.

If the pack is roughly even by the end of the year, then Obama will win because of the debates. At one time, I thought that Edwards was a strong in debates too, but that was before I watched his dreadful performance against Cheney in 2004.


The truth about McCain
by nstrauss on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:31:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

Why does everyone keep saying that?  I thought Edwards beat Cheney.  And at the time, I wasn't the Edwards supporter I am today.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He did beat Cheney (none / 0)

And the polls agreed.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:46:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He did beat Cheney (none / 0)

My point wasn't who "won" the debate. You can win a debate and still leave people with a bad taste in their mouths. Plus, Obama and HRC will be much tougher opponents than Cheney.


The truth about McCain
by nstrauss on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

He won on likability not substance against somebody who was considered a dead weight pulling the Bush campaign down. People interpretate that as a phyrric victory. thats isn't entirely fair as Cheney, loathsome as he can be, really knows his stuff.

Edwards reputation as a super trail lawyer hurts as well. People expected more from a professional debator, at least in hindsight. It a bum deal anyway, the VP debate. It's extremely hard to get right. To good a performance and you embarrish the candidate as people wonder why your not on the top of the ticket, too bad and you embarish yourself. And nobody is swayed by it anyway.

He's not my candidate, but I wouldn't hold that thing against him.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good quotes on Edwards' substance in debate (none / 0)

Quotes

Carlos Watson (CNN): "But Wolf, I think in the first half, when they talked about terrorism, when they talked about national security issues, I think Edwards landed some real blows. I think that if you're an undecided voter, or even frankly if you're a soft voter, I think you're going to take another look on Friday at what John Kerry has to say. I think that the vice president and John Edwards both did their jobs but I think Edwards probably did a better job with persuadable voters.""

Jack Kemp: "Edwards was equally aggressive, accusing President Bush and Cheney of misleading the country about Iraq, first by suggesting that Iraq was linked to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States and then by trying to suggest that conditions there are better than they are. He repeatedly accused Cheney of distorting the facts to mislead the public."

Cathy Young (Boston Globe): "Edwards scored a strong rhetorical victory when he mentioned the no-bid contract given in Iraq to Cheney's former company, Halliburton, and listed some of Halliburton's alleged misdeeds. Cheney's attempt to respond by saying that Halliburton was being brought up as a `smokescreen' to cover for Kerry's and Edwards's mediocre record in the Senate led to another direct hit from Edwards as he pointedly attacked Cheney's voting record in Congress, portraying him as an ogre who opposed Head Start, Martin Luther King Day, and a ban on plastic weapons that can pass through metal detectors."


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:03:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good quotes on Edwards' substance in debate (none / 0)

I didn't want to imply that Edwards didn't have good substansive moments but so did Cheney. Edwards did beat him by a longshot on likabilaty.

Problem is people unrealisticly expected more (partly in hindsight) because they dislike Cheney so much.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good quotes on Edwards' substance in debate (none / 0)

I don't care what the pundits said. Yes, Edwards hammered Cheney on substance. But I thought he presented a very poor persona for someone who wants to be president someday.


The truth about McCain
by nstrauss on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

I thought Edwards came across as smug and inauthentic. Cheney was devoted to solving America's problems. Edwards seemed to only be interested in becoming VP.


The truth about McCain
by nstrauss on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Primary Poll Averages (none / 0)

Cheney seemed authentically smug.  Because he is.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 08:24:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It will be a close race for second in Iowa. (none / 0)

Both Hillary and Obama will finish far behind Edwards in Iowa, but Obama is in much better shape to survive an early stumble, whereas Hillary's poor showing will devastate her campaign. Obama will have the excuse of being new to contests on this stage, and will be given more of a pass by the media.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 02:25:03 PM EST

Re: It will be a close race for second in Iowa. (none / 0)

I doubt it. Obama's reputation is far less set in stone then hillary's. A stumble and he just as easy as sudden becomes a light weight if he doesn't sell it right.

While good spin might keep Hillary safe just as easy. Iowa tends to vote against the frontrunner as a rule. She could play it as just those Iowa radicals up to their old tricks. and then point out that succesful Presidental candidates didn't win Iowa. etc.

If she then performs better in NH and she probably will as that is an election instead of a caucus. she can make a Bill joke and proclaim herself the comeback girl. That will keep her alive untill the big states come into play where her money and experience team will count for a lot. It's easier to sell the bear then shoot it. Don't proclaim Hillary out untill you've got proof. She's a survivor.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 03:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It will be a close race for second in Iowa. (none / 0)

Another scenario is that Edwards gets a 10 pt boost  from IA and wins the NH primary and the Clinton campaign collapses.

Clinton has to beat the expectations game and it will be hard for her to spin otherwise. Also NH loves to take down front runners.


by BDM on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It will be a close race for second in Iowa. (3.00 / 1)

the expectations game is why I don't mind that Obama is comming up beside her. Makes it easier to explain away bad results.

Remember Bill didn't win NH as well. He simply improved his share of the vote and claimed to be the comeback kid.

As a election it has a lower treshhold and the non activists get into the picture as well. That would improve Hillary's figure compared to Iowa. So she could point to improvement. Thats all she need for NH, improvement to remain in the race. (A win would be extremely nice of course)

She's been planning this for years then so I doubt the campaign would collapse overnight. It's an experienced team whats she's got. And the core is extremely loyal to her. She herself said she's in for the long haul.

If she's smart (and every points to that she is) She'll make sure that she saves up a nest egg for big media buys for the big states so that even if the donations dry up after NH or Iowa, she can continue and win some of the big states.

Hopefully enough to start the donation back up to compete untill the end.

And that is a bad case scenario.

If she wins NH, and beats out Obama in Iowa, she's immediatly on the winning track.

I think Obama needs to beat both Edwards and Clinton in Iowa and have a good finish in NH to maintain his supporters and to keep his campaign in check. It's a new machine. And I don't know how well it'll hold up.

I actually think edwards is in a better position then Obama. People have lower expectations of him as he's flying below the radar right now. If he comes second in Iowa or NH and wins the other he suddenly leaps to the front as a gaint killer. And  since he didn't stop running after 2004, he's got a experienced team.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 05:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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