Why do we fight?

by Obama08, Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 10:31:51 AM EST

I understand partisan bickering and I even understand the infighting within our party.  As you all know, I've engaged in it from time to time.  I'm not trying to echo Obama on the smallness of our politics, but we all need to think for a second about what the most consuming topics here have been recently.  We do get some real discussion going, on assault weapons, health care, and troop funding - but so much of our discussion is whether it is OK to raise money from lobbyists wifes or whether $400 is too much to pay for a hair cut.

Yesterday, someone killed 32 people before turning the gun on themselves and taking their own life.  Today, 33 miners were trapped in a coal mine in central China following an explosion.  Yesterday, dozens of Iraqis and more than a dozen Iraqi police were killed including 3 fatalities which were the result of U.S. friendly fire.  Yesterday, 5 members of the U.S. Armed Forces were killed in Iraq.  In the past few days a storm that ripped across the country from Texas to Maine killed 15 people.

I'm not indicting those people who want to discuss breaking news about haircuts.  I'm not saying don't talk about the horserace.  In addition to all those things, we need to talk about our vision for this country.  We need to show all of our politicians in Washington that we do care about the bigger issues.  We need to be the catalysts for change.  We need to be making the phone calls and sending the letters.  On Iraq, on gun control, on foreign relations, on the need for a competent FEMA, on healthcare, on Social Security, on all of the issues of the day.

Pray for all of those who lost their lives yesterday.  Pray for their friends.  Pray for their families.  Remember every single time you hear the death toll in Iraq, it is 100 times as large as the death toll at Virginia Tech.  The soldiers in Iraq are the same age as those at Virginia Tech.  Remember the Hokies, but don't just remember them, let their deaths bring our nation together.

There are bigger issues ahead and today is the day.




Tags: VA Tech, 2008 (all tags)

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Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

well said.  thank you.


by vwcat on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:53:37 AM EST

Re: Why do we fight? (3.00 / 1)

Thankyou for addressing this issue.  Most of the fights seem based on trivialities, my candidate was first and an unwillingness to step back, see the big picture.  It is way too early to be so polarized.  We are all on the same side.

I'd appreciate daily diaries on the recommend list, eviscerating repub candidates' positions.  I prefer our venom be directed at them, with concommitant e-mail campaigns to decimate whomever may be their nominee.

IMO, we have bigger fish to fry: let's not lose our focus.  P.S.  Recommend because I'd  like to see many Mydd posters contribute their observations.


by pamelabrown on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 01:56:01 PM EST

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

I would prefer a scientific sounding answer to why we fight.

My own guess is that the amount of fighting is related to the amount someone likes their candidate and dislikes the other.

If they are supporting edwards because they dislike Obama it is only natural for them to primarily attack obama rather than praise edwards.  

And some is self perpetuating I am sure.  Someone posts something untrue and bad and you get other people willing to believe the worst who repeat that first step.


by sterra on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

I apologize you are looking for a measurable answer to question, this post largely serves as a rhetorical question.

I honestly don't understand why all of us, who are truly united, are so divided.  We pretty much agree on all substantive policy issues, but we disagree on process and trivia.  That seems enough for a lot of people to develop a very personal distaste for other people here.  Why?


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

Because some consider process and trivia more important than substantive policy issues.

There is a reason for that as it feeds into your overall perspective on a candidate.  Which is important.

The problem is that it can be heavily influenced by your previous perspective.  So one person sees and Obama attack and goes "Look more crap being spewed" and another goes "See Obama really is the devil".


by sterra on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 06:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

Especially in a time where we so badly need to be united.


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

I like them both.  Its the instigating comments that really ruin it.  Going into a diary and saying OBAMA SUCKS or EDWARDS SUCK or EDWARDS IS AN EMPTY SMILE or OBAMA IS AN EMPTY SUIT or EDWARDS IS A PRETTY BOY AND GOT A $400 HAIRCUT or HOW DARE OBAMA SPEAK ABOUT THE VA TECH SHOOTINGS AT A FUNDRAISER does NOTHING to propel debate, but just serves to get people pissed off.  What I am not sure is if those doing it are actually that big of assholes and purposely do it, or if they don't realize just how incendiary their comments are and how non constructively critical they are.


by yitbos96bb on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

The fighting is especially funny because Obama is among my top 3. When I'm "fighting", I'm just raising my concerns, or voicing the reasons Obama isn't my guy. I think the same goes for a lot of Edwards supporters regarding Obama, and vice versa.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:49:00 PM EST

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

What I'm saying, is that it isn't funny.  Sometimes after you raise a concern and someone just isn't getting it, leave it be.  There is no reason to pursue an argument where no progress can be made.  All that does is further divide us.

A good example is the positive campaign Obama has promised to run.  He hasn't said he will not say anything about his opponents, if that was the case the debates coming up would be very boring.  You won't hear him suggesting that Richardson likes the ladies too much, you won't hear him suggesting that Clinton can't control her husband, and you won't hear him suggesting that $400 is too much to pay for a hair cut - you may hear him disagree on policy or even the inside baseball.

We aren't the opponents, I would even argue that the Republicans aren't are opponents, our opponents are more elusive.  We are fighting gun violence.  We are fighting hunger and a lack of health care.  Our fight isn't one of left and right, it is one of right and wrong.  We fight because there is no moral alternative.


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 03:02:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

Right now we ARE opponents.  And Obama's "positive" campaign has already attacked Hillary Clinton for the Lincoln Bedroom fundraising, and who knows what's more to come?

Obama is a standard, typical politician just like the rest of the field.  If he wasn't, he wouldn't rely on ultimate insider Tom Daschle to be the man behind the curtain.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (3.00 / 1)

Saying he "attacked" her is going a bit overboard. Remember, it was Geffen who's personally known Hillary for years, who attacked her and Hillary responded by whining about the fact that Obama didn't take it upon himself to jump in and defend her. Obama responded to that with one single comment about how she didn't seem to mind Geffen when he was raising money for her husband and staying in the Lincoln bedroom.

He never claimed to be a saint, only that his goal is to raise the level of discourse, and he has done that.


by Mystylplx on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (3.00 / 0)

He never claimed to be a saint, only that his goal is to raise the level of discourse, and he has done that.

How?


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (3.00 / 1)

A supporter who is not paid by or working for the campaign did this.  Not Obama.


by yitbos96bb on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

I didn't realize his communications director, Mr. Robert Gibbs, was an unpaid supporter.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

OK.  And what about that adds to the topic at hand?


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

This relates to the topic and hand because it involves a fight between the Obama and Clinton campaigns.  You ask us why we fight, and I point out we fight because our campaigns fight.  We are opponents until our nominee is decided.  It isn't that tough.

Many Obama supporters see him as some kind of savior-type, a different kind of politician who doesn't fight.  I just pointed out otherwise.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

I urge you to look again at what you wrote.  If you had said, "we fight because our campaigns fight," before just now you could have used a fight between Obama and Clinton as an example.  You would have been creating a new line of discussion relevant to conversation.  Instead you said,

"Obama's 'positive' campaign has already attacked Hillary Clinton for the Lincoln Bedroom fundraising, and who knows what's more to come?

Obama is a standard, typical politician just like the rest of the field.  If he wasn't, he wouldn't rely on ultimate insider Tom Daschle to be the man behind the curtain."

That created unnecessary strife not at all related to the topic at hand.  Now on your basic premise of us being opponents until we have a nominee, I ask why?  You want to advance the progressive agenda, so do I.  You want to win the White House in a year and a half, so do I.  We want so many of the same things that it makes no sense for us to be opponents, instead aren't we allies with different strategies?  We are allied in what goals we wish to accomplish, we differ in how best to accomplish those goals.

It does therefore make sense for us to have an intelligent discussion of how to best accomplish our mutual goals, accusations regarding $400 haircuts don't further that neither does belittling Obama's supporters.


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (3.00 / 1)

We aren't allies with different strategies.  We are opponents with different strategies.  I do not want your candidate to be OUR candidate.  I don't think your candidate advances the progressive agenda in the way I want it advanced.

Your candidate sets up left-wing strawmen to attack, which damages those more liberal or progressive than he.  Think of Samantha Powers and her 'The Left isn't proud of America,' or the "playing chicken with the troops" meme that includes Democrats AND Republicans.

I want someone who is a fighter for our party, for our ideals, not someone who strives for the politics of compromise and mediocrity.  And that's who Obama is to me.  And that's why I "fight" his supporters.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

You made no substantive argument here, and your comment doesn't relate to the subject of this diary.  Furthermore, your comments are incendiary and, as has been pointed out in the various discussions of those specific incidents, not entirely true.

For those looking for a good specific example of a post which hijacks a discussion, taking it from a discussion of ideas to an argument about nothing, this is it.  Vox Populi, though others might not agree with me, you do make fair points on a regular basis - if you want people to notice them stop surrounding them with unhelpful incendiary remarks.

Debates about topics like these do hurt the Democratic party.  Debates like these hurt America.  This reminds me of a debate I've seen before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpD ZE


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:27:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

I didn't mean "ha-ha" funny. Peculiar, interesting, or noteworthy might be better words.

I really don't see these arguments as dividing us. As a Dean supporter, I argued with Kerry, Clark, and Gephardt supporters to no end in 2003-04. I still worked hard for Kerry in the general election. I don't think this time will be any different.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (3.00 / 1)

Yeah, but compare your comments to some of the other Edwards supporters or Obama Supporters instigate with Edwards.  You might say I think his stance on this is bad because....  Others will say... Obama is an empty suited sellout because he said this.  Both addressing the same topic, but you cna surely see the difference and why the second one would offend some people.  And yes, there are obama people who do it too... I thought the Article on Edward's haircut was in this fashion and wrong... and I said so in the diary.


by yitbos96bb on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

You respond with negative infuiating comments (as compared to constructive critical comments that invoke debate) in the positive diaries of candidates ALL THE TIME.  You did it this morning and were blasted for it... THAT IS JUST AS BAD!!!


by yitbos96bb on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:58:06 PM EST

Peace (none / 0)


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:28:20 PM EST

Re: Why do we fight? (3.00 / 1)

I like tough primaries and I like debate. I have learned more about Edwards and Obama and Hillary by their critics and supporters than by the MSM. It would serve no purpose for me to read blogs if it was all Democrats=Good Republicans=Bad, mkay?


by alarabi7 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:42:57 PM EST

Re: Why do we fight? (none / 0)

I agree.  I just don't want the trivial and over-personal to divide us.  Note the particular recent arguments I use.  I think that even discussing whether Obama's fundraising tactics are right is fair game.  It is the destructive arguments which accomplish nothing that I oppose.


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why do we fight? (3.00 / 1)

we fight because we simply disagree on things. On approach, on issues, on the importance of substance, on style, on any number of things. Edwards and Obama are similar on many things but also different in other respects and their supporters are going to reflect this and point out those differences.

Thats what primaries are about. A healthy debate should be happening. Its not a lovefest and thank god it isn't. Beyond strictly personal/ ad hominem attacks, seems like anything goes.

This is about arguably the most important job in the world. And this election, probably one of the more important elections the US has had. lets not trivilize it with thin skins and pretend that America or the party is hurt by having a real debate.


by okamichan13 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 07:23:00 PM EST


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