Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest ...

Cross-Posted

Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

WARNING: If you cannot take a critical view of Senator Obama, you'd best move along.

The Washington Post's story today, Obama Taps Two Worlds To Fill 2008 War Chest paints a picture of politics-as-usual from a politician holding himself out to be something quite the opposite.

The campaign received $50,566 from 49 lobbyists, but aides flagged the checks during initial screening and said they will return the money. Still, for hosting events and otherwise raising money, the Obama fundraising team is relying on partners in lobbying firms who are not registered for specific clients, former lobbyists who recently dropped clients and spouses of lobbyists. The strategy allows Obama's team to reach the wealthy clients of lobbying firms while technically complying with his pledge.
This isn't the first time I've come across a story that tells us that Obama is doing a reach around to abide by his stated policy to refuse any more of the PAC or lobbyist money he collected for his senate runs, yet finding a way to access the donations of the wealthy, and give them access too.  It seems that actively soliciting the spouses of lobbyists fits within his rules.


Howard Mortman
makes a good point.  "I guess if you make up your own rules you can also make up your ways around them."

There is an argument to be made that he is simply a brilliantly appealing politician who is crossing the great divide between the Washington elite and the common folk, between the haves and the nots.  

As the first-quarter finance report his campaign will file today is expected to document, Obama has managed to successfully bridge two very different political worlds. Along with thousands of first-time donors who sent $50 or $100 from their home computers, the report is to list scores of longtime political insiders who funneled stacks of $2,300 checks to Obama's accounts.
But something of this stinks.  I'm reminded of a chief executive who signs a piece of legislation with great fanfair, but once behind closed doors, files a signing statement full of enough loopholes to make the new law meaningless.

Look, I don't care who Obama gets his money from as long as he is a man of integrity.  I never assaulted Hillary Clinton, John Kerry or even Al Gore for tapping those sources of funds.  But when a candidate makes a show of refunding fifty grand in donations, as if it were somehow dirty money, I'd like to think that I wasn't watching some slick magician with suspiciously bulging sleeves.  But low and behold, we find out that that he "shared secret plans for a series of soon-to-be-released policy statements" with these elite mogels, all of whom expected to bundle upwards of a quarter of a million dollars each, and are urged to call the Senator up personally to discuss his talking points.

Among those big time money men (and presumably, women) who now have Obama's private cell phone number on speed dial are a Hyatt hotel heiress, a New York hedge fund manager, a Hollywood movie mogul and a Chicago billionaire. Now it doesn't matter that Obama or any candidate receives a check from someone who happens to be wealthy.  Much more interesting, and possibly concerning, is which industries and ideologies are represented by that money.

Some are Clinton family's former loyalists, including James Rubin, son of Clinton's former treasury secretary, Robert, who framed Republican talking points around Democratic economic policy.   That triangulation is what gave us "solutions" like "welfare reform," "tax relief," and "free trade."  In fact, Bob Rubin's Hamilton Group has completely infiltrated both Hillary and Barack's camps.  As Sirota said, "What a shock," that the owners of one of the world's largest military contractors, General Dynamics, are among Obama's biggest doners when you hear nothing from him about reducing our military budget and hedging on our involvement in Iraq.

If you were around in 1968, anytime a presidential candidate talks about secret plans while the country is in the middle of an unpopular war, red lights start flashing in your brain.  Matt Stoller's discussion with Matt Yglasias touches on the idea that it's about time that cadidates, at least ones deserving of our support, be honest with us.  Say what you mean and do what you say, period.  For years they've been selling us the idea that good things will trickle down from these millionaires, but in reality, they're just peeing on our leg.

Our political discourse is pretty broken, and words choice and meaning can only return if we demand our leaders be straight with us.
Will the impressive crowds attending Obama's rallies notice that this rock star staking out the anti-Hillary mantle is as well supported by the interconnected beltway establishment as Mrs. Clinton?  Obama gets the big money from the big money folks because he seems like he can appeal to the unwashed masses, us little folks in the grass/net-roots.  He appeals to us because we don't see him as someone who is an establishment suck-up.

Turns out, we may have been had.

I'll give Obama this.  His tactics are non-divisive.   He doesn't seem to pit the Two Americas against each other, or pick sides between the two.   It also explains his frustrating ability to talk about the issues that matter most to us, and to the prosperity of the nation as a whole -- while remaining aloof on details.  And it's not even the usual details, like: "How are you going to pay for this?"  The questions are, "What are you going to do about this."

People go to rock concerts because they like the music.   They may admire Pearl Jam for bypassing the corporate controlled media, or Metallica for their prinicpled stands even though their fight against Napster stopped much of the freebees we were all enjoying.   But if the music is just more elevator muzack, the crowds won't be there.   Trust me, if the Who or Rolling Stones were sponsored by Halliburton, they'd still fill up stadiums.

But once the show is over, you have a different kind of choice than you do after attending a political rally.  Voting for a candidate is not the same as buying their CD.  Reading more about them, examining their position on the issues, listening to the debates and their speeches -- that's more like buying their music so you can listen to them again and again.  Voting for them is an explicit endorsement of their agenda, and their sponsors.

Look at it this way.  If your kid bought a Brittany Spears CD a few years back, that didn't mean they had to change from Coke to Pepsi because she did commercials for them.

So just who is Obama going to represent?  To whom will he be beholden?  It would appear that he has equal financial support from the small doner internet base as he does from traditional fundraisers, "some of the biggest names in Democratic politics."   So who will he eventually sell out?  Will he follow the agenda of the fat cats who've already maxed out their donation allotment, and probably hedged their bets by giving to Hillary too -- or us, the people who fill those crowds and knock on doors and send twenty bucks when we can?

Sooner or later I would think he's going to have to make a choice.  I hope he does do before he doesn't need us any longer.  He's already fooled a lot of folks into thinking that he's a populist of some sort by forswearing lobbyist money, yet finding a way into the pockets of those lobbyist's clients, and their spouses.

How does that saying go?  Fool me once......



Display:


Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 1)

Barack Obama walks on water.  And didn't you know?  He bakes cookies too.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:23:32 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 0)

I hope his cookie recipe is better than Hillary's.  Her's was aweful.  Now she'd probably add flax seed for the omega-3.  

Yech


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards' appearance at Bilderberg begs similar (3.00 / 2)

questions as those you've raised, only far more disconcerting.

U.S. Sen. John Edwards at Bilderberg
Bilderberg on the wiki:

Bilderberg Group or Bilderberg conference is an unofficial annual invitation-only conference of around 130 guests, most of whom are persons of influence in the fields of business, media, and politics.

Due to discussions by public officials and powerful business leaders (and others) being off the record, these annual meetings are the subject of much criticism (for circumventing the democratic process of discussing issues openly and publicly) and numerous conspiracy theories.

The elite group meets annually at exclusive, four or five-star resorts throughout the world, normally in Europe, once every four years in the United States or Canada. It has an office in Leiden, South Holland, Netherlands.


Bilderberg attendees list wikipage

So just who is Edwards going to represent?  To whom will he be beholden?  So who will he eventually sell out?


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hello, Newman (none / 0)

I'm not sure if everything on wikipedia is accurate, but I've never heard of this conference before


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hello, Edwards Cultist/Jingoist (none / 0)

here is apparently a NY Times citation on his appearance:


July 7, 2004 New York Times article

   Several people pointed to the secretive and exclusive Bilderberg conference of some 120 people that this year drew the likes of Henry A. Kissinger, Melinda Gates and Richard A. Perle to Stresa, Italy, in early June, as helping win Mr. Kerry's heart. Mr. Edwards spoke so well in a debate on American politics with the Republican Ralph Reed that participants broke Bilderberg rules to clap before the end of the session. Beforehand, Mr. Edwards traveled to Brussels to meet with NATO officials, brandishing his foreign-policy credentials.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

anything new (3.00 / 1)

got anything in the last year or two?  or just 2004 and expensive hair cuts


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did Edwards drink some magic potion in the last (3.00 / 1)

year ort two, before masquerading as a critic of the war, as Russ Feingold puts it.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not a direct quote from feingold (3.00 / 1)

this appears to be a blogger conference call in which the only direct quote of feingold on edwards, acuses "even him of playing it safe"

the writer of the Huff Post piece uses "masquerading" not feingold from what I can tell.

He says defunding the escalation is not enough, if we apply your logic of feingold to Obama the conclusion would be even worse..
if Edwards doesn't go far enough, what would feingold say about Obama...

(not from 2006, but in 2007)


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The blogger put in quotes: (none / 0)

The presumption when someone does that (and doesn't he/she is paraphrasing) is that the quoted person, Feingold in this case, used this word.
Feingold was also critical of John Edwards who, he says, has been "masquerading" as a critic of the war, but whose proposal so far only call for refusing to fund the proposed Bush troop escalation in Iraq. Even he, Feingold said, fails in his rhetoric to call for withdraw and a full defunding of the current debacle.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brad-fried man/feingold-excoriates-fello_b_40521.ht ml

Brad Friedman of the "Brad Blog" is a respected blogger, and I'd trust his quoting to be accurate.
by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:43:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not one sentence in full quotes (3.00 / 1)

not a single sentence in full quotes in the whole article.

regardless if you want to believe some bloggers attribution on a conference call that has not been repeated anywhere else or by a second source.   logic would dictate that Obama's stance is even worse than Edwards as the whole point of the blog post is that democrats -even those who call for gradual defunding are too soft.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so? (none / 0)

"not a single sentence in full quotes in the whole article."

There is no reason to think that the word "masquerading" was not a direct quote.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:58:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Losing two... (none / 0)

elections wasn't bad enough? How many tries are we going to give Edwards? Maybe in 2012 he can change his positions again and give it another go 'round...


by potus2020 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hello, Newman (3.00 / 1)

This is accurate, Edwards did attend the Bliderberg conference, however I would point to the wider context in which this occurs.  Following the linked article in neuvoliberal's post, you'll see that this happened in 2004.  

I would like to point out that during this period, Sen. Edwards was welcomed as a special emmisary to numerous events with European leaders including a trip ot the European Parliament in Brussells.

Anyone spending even a brief time around the EU realizes Bush is not popular. However, few MEPs indicate their sentiments explicitly -- they may, after all, have to work with him for another four years. But pro-Kerry sentiment inside the EU is palpable. During my visit, I learned that in early June the EU welcomed a special emissary sent by Senator Kerry -- John Edwards. Kerry sent Edwards to "get a reading" on the EU's major concerns, according to Fraser Cameron, a former EU representative to Washington, now Director of Studies of a Brussels think-tank, the European Policy Center. Top on the EU list were U.S. policies toward Israel, and the U.S. refusal to sign the Kyoto accord -- both areas in which there has been a wide gulf between the United States and Europe in political circles and popular opinion. At the EU, the mere act of listening to what they had to say was considered a welcome development.

All this proves is that Senator Edwards is the only top tier candidate with high level diplomatic experience. (Gov. Richardson has an impressived diplomatic record, however at this time I don't consider him a top tier candidate.)

European leaders are quite enamored of John Edwards, because he has embraced many of the social democratic ideals that the European left feels are under attack.  

Sen. Obama on the other hand has been largely supportive of the economic status quo, serving as the keynote speaker for the Hamilton Project, a group funded by Robert Rubin to press for free trade, deregulation, and other neo-liberal policies.  Presumably, Obama's support for and from this group explains his "special relationship" with both Wall Street and K Street.  He's a Trojan Horse candidate in case Clinton fails in order to make sure their investments and interests are not injured by the resurgence of populism within the Democratic party.


by ManfromMiddletown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'High level diplomatic experience' as seen (3.00 / 1)

in his statement 3 months later?


MTP, October 10, 2004

MR. RUSSERT:  If you knew today--and you do know there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq...

SEN. EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

MR. RUSSERT:  ...would you still vote to go to war with Iraq?

SEN. EDWARDS:  I would have voted for the resolution knowing what I know today, because it was the right thing to do to give the president the authority to confront Saddam Hussein.


That's quite some diplomacy at work.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'High level diplomatic experience' as seen (none / 0)

No sense crying over spilt milk, but I see no sense in the resistance of Obama to withdrawing our troops to end the bloodshed in Iraq.

We can't change the past, but the future is our choice.


by ManfromMiddletown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama wants to pull out (none / 0)

He voted for the appropriations bill which calls for a timeline (non-binding), is working to build veto-proof majority behind it, he has his own Iraq de-escalation bill, and he is considering Feingold-Reid legislation. Therefore, your claim "see no sense in the resistance of Obama to withdrawing our troops to end the bloodshed in Iraq" is a gross misrepresenatation and a falsity.

Readers may wish to explore these Obama pages in Iraq:


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:08:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'on iraq', of course (none / 0)


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama wants to pull out (none / 0)

I don't see the troops coming home when I turn on the news.  What I do see is young men and women dying doing their duty, while Congress refuses to act.  


by ManfromMiddletown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:58:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dems have a thread bare majority (none / 0)

where some of them are fighting tough legislative battles. If you have a magic formula for forcing legislation given the mix that'd pull out the troops as desired right away, tell us about it and go ahead and pursue it to make it happen.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dems have a thread bare majority (none / 0)

I have a magic formula, its called a roll call vote.

Voting against the war is hardly a profile on courage at this point with a solid majority of the public vehemently opposed to it.

If Senators really want to defend their vote for the war back home, let them.


by ManfromMiddletown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:27:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For which bill and which ones can you (none / 0)

guarantee veto-proof majority?

FYI, the appropriations bill did pass with a roll call vote.

Of course I would like to see the war end, but unless you have a way to find veto-proof majority, you're merely preaching to the choir.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:53:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then you obviously dont have a clue... (3.00 / 1)

...how Congress works.

There's only one Barack Obama. We need 536.

Or, at least 218 in the House, 51 in the Senate, and one President Baracka Obama.

Then we never would have started the war, and the troops would all be home in a year.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Youll be glad to know (none / 0)

Senator Obama was the one leading for the 3-31-08 withdrawal date, and dropped the "Iraq De-escalation Bill" several weeks ago.

Senator Obama is glad to have your support, now that you are fully informed.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

2004 (3.00 / 2)

Got any actual news, NL? You know, anything about the campaigns the candidates are running?

As I and a hundred others have discussed, he's grown a lot since his last campaign, when he made some of the mistakes that Obama is making now.


by david mizner on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's less than 3 years ago (none / 0)

and what they (Edwards, among the worst among Democrats) did back then led to the mess that we're in today. It's important to know where Edwards's been just 2-3 years ago.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Like building a phenomenal grassroots movement (none / 0)

and raising twice as much small donor money as any other candidate?...Or introducing bills to end the Iraq War within a year?

I missed Edwards doing those things last time.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards' appearance at Bilderberg begs similar (none / 0)

In all fairness every nominee historically in both parties has appeared before groups of the powerful and elite such as the Bilderberg meeting. Edwards attended.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The irony of mizner's attacks on Obama (none / 0)

with twisted association with "elites" compels examining Edwards' own associations.

Bilderberg does have famous neocons such as Rumsfeld and Pearle frequenting the place.

And, why the secrecy? Why can't Bilderberg be an open forum like Davos, if their intentions are good? That secrecy brings the distrust.


by NuevoLiberal on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:06:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 0)

He's a fuzzy widdle bunny.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:29:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Now if somebody wanted to adopt or marry him, that would be high praise indeed.  However, he is running for President, not King of the Snow Flake HS dance.


by dkmich on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

... And he is as innocent as a virgin (3.00 / 0)


by dpANDREWS on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Damn it, Nonpartisan.

I want water from wine.

Talk about a friggin party trick.


by ManfromMiddletown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:22:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

hey, ya need money to run.  he is also a chicago guy.  I never harbored illusions that politicians are - gasp! - politicians.  Nor do I expect them to be saints.  If I was running I'd take the money the best way I could.  
anyone who expects a politician, Edwards included, to be pure is living in a dream world.
They are all people of their profession.  They may want to shape things and make things better, but in the end, it takes money and connections to get you to the place where you can do something about it.
Don't think for a minute that Obama came out of the Senate race with wings.  But, I tend to be a realist.  You don't survive chicago politics being a saintly person.  You gotta play.
Just because we believe in Obama and his message, because we feel he is authentic and real, because we feel he is the one to save this country from the abyss, does not mean we are niave and think him perfect or godly.  Please.  Grow up.
by vwcat on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:33:29 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 1)

"we feel he is authentic and real"
Make yourself coherent.  Is he authentic and real, or is he just another politician?
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Grow up? Really (3.00 / 6)

I didn't try to imply that any candidate doesn't need to collect vast sums of cash.

Obama is the one who made the pledge, and can't stick to it (or at least it's spirit).  I think he's the one who needs a dose of reality.

That or at least be honest.

As for his message being authentic and real, I saw a lot of GOPer-bots who really liked GWB, but couldn't articulate where he stood on a single position the last two elections.  Hell, that was the Reagan and Bush the Elder's method too.

We need no more of that kind of feel-good, "he's a nice guy so I can trust him," politics.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:40:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What Pledge? (3.00 / 0)

A pledge not to take money from lobbyists.

Not...a pledge not to take money from lobbyists or anyone around them.

Next lame Obama hit piece...


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Spirit vs Letter (none / 0)

So as long as Barack meets the letter of his condition it doesn't matter that what he is doing goes completely against the spirit of what he SAYS he's doing (and getting credit for doing). That, and your justification of it are positively... what's the word?... Clintonesque!


"We are building a political movement - not one that wields the power of lobbyists and corporate interests, but the power of millions... who seek change." -Dean
by Jim in Chicago on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Spirit vs Letter (none / 0)

So let me get this straight--he kept his promise but didn't keep what you consider to be the "spirit" of his promise?

That's funny.


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thems fightin words (none / 0)

I'd rather be Obama-esque in that I keep my promises (such as not taking money from lobbyists) and that I had a larger grassroots donor base last quarter (over 100,000) than both of my two opponents combined.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:53:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama supporters want it both ways (3.00 / 5)

They gush on and on how different he is, and how he is changing politics, etc.  and then when he is exposed as just another pol they let him off the hook with a "what do you expect, he is a pol" type excuse.

Talk about wanting it both ways.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:21:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards supporters want it both ways (none / 0)

They want him to not take money from lobbyists, and when he pledges not to, then DOESNT, they accuse him of taking money from lobbyists clients (aka...1000s of people in Washington) and anyone in their bloodline. There is absolutely nothing wrong, nor contradictory, in that.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:48:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards supporters want it both ways (none / 0)

Yes, there is. See below.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:01:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards supporters want it both ways (none / 0)

See below?

Typical argument from an Edwards supporter--I have no argument, and I apologize for my lack of an argument.


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards supporters want it both ways (none / 0)

I was just pointing you to a part of the thread where this was being discussed.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lol (3.00 / 1)


this is really funny. i couldn't help laughing after following the treads here.

damn, obama promises, delivers, then edward's opposition team combs, keep combing. and when they find nothing, they make sure they report.

this is so IMMATURE. guys, obama broke no rule; he's free and we should be DAMN proud. barack will make liberals proud, i know this 'cos he was my state representative in springfield and he delivered; in the process he even turned republican precincts blue. go to springfield and ask: obama is in no one's pocket and he'll do dems proud as president.


by pmb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporters want it both ways (none / 0)

To my knowledge, Obama and McCain are the only 2 who have pledged to take the government funding route if both sides agree.


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:03:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow, a couple of "mavericks" there. (none / 0)

Both are raising every dime they can raise because they both know nobody is going to go the public route.   Its all empty talk.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow, a couple of "mavericks" there. (none / 0)

Interestingly enough if they both made the general then the election would be publicly financed.  It is amazing how that works isn't it?


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would bet a lot of money that it wouldn't be (none / 0)

No way.   There is too much money out there.  No candidate with the means to raise it .... and both parties will raise it ... is going to accept the public money.

You are dreaming.  


by dpANDREWS on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would bet a lot of money that it wouldn't be (none / 0)

Which one of them is going to break their promise and make everyone think that they are a liar?


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would bet a lot of money that it wouldn't be (none / 0)

  1. McCain won't be the nominee, so it won't matter.
  2. It's stupid to tie your hands by accepting public dollars.

"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain may be '08's John Kerry (none / 0)

The establishment guy at the front who fades out only to have the primaries voters come back to him after looking over the other candidates and deeming them unelectable (or unacceptable would be more like it in the Republican primaries).

Wingnuts keep talking about finding someone like Reagan.  No other candidate on that side comes closer to Reagan's views than McCain in my opinion.  

After a serious looking over, I have a real hard time imagining Rudy or Mitt being acceptable to the far right.  I also don't believe that Thompson or Gingrich are going to come in late and win it.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:41:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is a co-sponsor (1.00 / 0)

of a bill to allow greater public financing of presidential elections. Im glad that since this is an issue you care about, Senator Obama and I can count on your vote.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a co-sponsor (none / 0)

Uh, Edwards has actually pledged to put the entire system onto a basis of public finance. Way to know what you're talking about, there.


Stop blaming the media. The FACTS have a liberal bias.
by McSnatherson on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:39:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Was Edwards a co-sponsor? (1.00 / 0)

A simple search for public finance, or public financing on his website doesnt reveal a damn thing, because Edwards isn't relying on public finance. So hows that?

And I hadn't seen any updates since Edwards missed the public finance pledge last month...thanks for the non-existant update. Be sure to keep me informed with the next round of Edwards supporters lies with your mad wicked expertise.


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:15:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Was Edwards a co-sponsor? (none / 0)

http://www.ontheissues.org/John_Edwards. htm

Supports public financing of elections. (Mar 2004)


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"In principle" - in 2004 (none / 0)

And this time around he is skipping public money for the primary and potentially the general.

You could say that thats hypocritical, but I like Edwards, and Im not interested in slandering him. I understand that he would probably change the system if elected president, as would Barack Obama, who i obviously prefer.


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:37:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Was Edwards a co-sponsor? (none / 0)

Let me introduce you to what can be turned up through the magic of this thing called "Google": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhuhWxFSR Cw

I'll be happy to receive your apology for calling me a liar any time now, since that video makes it perfectly clear that Edwards unequivocally supports a system of public financing (which is what I was actually talking about, your dishonest dodge notwithstanding).


Stop blaming the media. The FACTS have a liberal bias.
by McSnatherson on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 03:03:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Silly (none / 0)

This is kinda a silly argument altogether isn't it?  Faithful has a point that he hasn't promised to use public financing in the general if he gets the nomination, but he does support public funding of elections.

This isn't dissimilar from the argument over Obama and lobbyist money.  He isn't taking lobbyist money but he is soliciting their networks and their families.

Lets stop splitting hairs.


by Obama08 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 03:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly (none / 0)

How is it a "point" that Edwards isn't planning on using public financing in the general election? First, it's completely irrelevant to the original discussion, and second, there's nothing virtuous about damaging your and your party's chances of winning by committing yourself to a broken system.

And without reopening that particular can of worms, suffice to say that I disagree strongly that it's not a big deal for a candidate to disavow only the most visible members of an unpopular and anti-progressive interest group, while actively encouraging them to funnel money and support to him through less obvious, embarrassing means.

Though FYI, I'm not opposed to Obama as a candidate. I think he's not the best (and his false holier-than-thou persona really rubs me the wrong way), not that he's bad. If he gets serious about furthering the progressive cause instead of just tinkering around the margins while wringing his hands about how rude politics is these days and comes back in a few years, I can easily see him being my #1 pick.


Stop blaming the media. The FACTS have a liberal bias.
by McSnatherson on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 05:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Was Edwards a co-sponsor? (none / 0)

First... dont trollrate someone just because you disagree with them.  

Second...I acknowledged that Edwards, like Obama, suppports revamping the public financing system. Sorry you missed that. Obama is even co-sponsoring a bill in the Senate. AND has said he'll publically finance in the general if his opponent agrees to do the same. Edwards has failed to do so.

You also need to acknowledge that Edwards is opting out of public financing. He attacked Howard Dean when Dean made the same choice 4 years ago. So, why are there so many inconsistencies in Edwards' rhetoric and his actions? Thats a question that I think its fair to ask.


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Was Edwards a co-sponsor? (none / 0)

First, learn what "trollrating" means. A "0" is a trollrating. A "1" (what I gave you), is just a friendly way of letting you know that I don't really find intellectual dishonesty and using ad hominem attacks against me by calling me a liar to be really valuable contributions to the debate here. Frankly, a "1" is a generous rating for a comment like that.

Second, speaking of intellectual dishonesty... the original issue was "greater public financing of presidential elections", which you insinuated was something only Obama was in favor of. I pointed out that this was factually incorrect. You responded with a complete non sequitur by pointing out that Edwards isn't planning to use public financing in the general, which you seemed to imagine somehow proved that he was somehow being hypocritical (which makes zero sense, btw - how is it hypocritical to not want to use a broken system until after you've fixed it?). This is when you called me a liar.

Third and last, you claim that I "need to acknowledge that Edwards is opting out of public financing". To which my only reply is, why on Earth do I need to "acknowledge" something I've never denied, and that's completely irrelevant to the actual debate?


Stop blaming the media. The FACTS have a liberal bias.
by McSnatherson on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if going public and pledging to do it (none / 0)

is empty talk then i'd love more empty talk from Edwards and Clinton and Co.


by pmb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 07:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 2)

It's not a matter of political expediency, that's a given.

It's that Obama's message essentially is that he doesn't play that game.  Which he does.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:26:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The sad irony is (3.00 / 2)

that Obama doesn't need to kiss up to Daschle and the other K-Street corporate crowd; he doesn't need their $$$. He didn't have to decide to shake down lobbyists' wives. He didn't need to do everything he could to render his anti-lobbyist pledge ridiculous.

He could've chose to really be the people-power candidate he pretends to be. He could've made enough $$$ without the corporate crowd.

But he wasn't so inclinded. Maybe he lacked the balls. Maybe his ideology, whatever that turns out to be, jibes well enough with that of corporate interests.

In any case, the corporate influence is already showing up in his policy positions, making any further claim to being the people's candidate more ridiculous.

The Audacity of Cynicism.


by david mizner on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The sad irony is (none / 0)

the evidence?

which policies are from corporate notebooks?

Obama is popular among elites(financial, legal, academic) b'cos of his academic creds. damn, but he's always know these elites; he attended law school with them, got job offers from them and ALWAYS turned them down.

If they think they can pocket him, they're screwed. He'll do what is right IN THEIR FACE!

Obama has a very thick head; he talks condoms in the face of evangelicals; he talks Greed in the face of bankers.

Worry not, HIS RECORD FLIES IN THE FACE OF THESE ACCUSATIONS and DISTORTIONS.

how is he the most liberal candidate after all the access he's had to elites since 2004?

answer: he DOES what is right, EVERY TIME.


by pmb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bullshit. (none / 0)

Edwards has a higher percentage of his $ (77%) taken from large donors than Obama did.

And Obama raised almost 3 times as much small donor (<$200 contribs) money as Edwards with double the contributors.

And "Shake down lobbyists wives"?! "lacked the balls"? Even if you had a valid point and hadn't made up a bunch of generic bullshit slander,  yall are getting rediculous.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit. (3.00 / 1)

Speaking of "ridiculous" (see, spellcheckers are your friends) claims, what do you call trying to make a big deal out of Edwards having more $1000+ donations than Obama (77% to 68%) even though Obama has far more maxed-out $2300 donations than Edwards (46% to 38%)? Seems like a rather convenient recollection of the facts on your part to me.


Stop blaming the media. The FACTS have a liberal bias.
by McSnatherson on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:43:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit. (none / 0)

Thats because you aren't paying attention, and because Edwards is in third place (where people are less likely to max out.)

Obama raised 22% of his money (which was quite a lot) from small dollar donations.
Edwards only raised 15% (of much less money) from small dollar donations.

Obama is clearly the candidate with the larger grassroots organization...so I can see why Edwards supporters on this site have started making shit up about him.

Not to mention...

Obama raised $5.7 million in small donations.
Edwards raised less than John Mccain in small dollar donations. Just $2 million.

I like Edwards, but your stupid attacks on Obama are based on complete mis-information. He is building a grassroots organization and donor base unparalleled in the history of the universe. He is returning power to the people, and to us shall he be beholden.


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What the fuck are you on? (none / 0)

Obama had more maxed-out donors because I wasn't paying attention? What the fuck does that mean? And what, if anything, are you basing your assertion that donors are less likely to max out to a candidate at third place in largely worthless (as we don't have a national primary) national polls on? And what "attacks" have I been making on Obama (I kinda thought I was defending Edwards against your attacks)? And how on Earth is the total amount of grassroots/big donor money raised - rather than its percentage of the total - in any way relevant here?

You need to disengage from your hero-worship of St. Obama for a second, and recognize that your paranoia of Edwards and his supporters is making you act ridiculously.


Stop blaming the media. The FACTS have a liberal bias.
by McSnatherson on Wed Apr 18, 2007 at 04:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

No, you accept corrupt politicians as a given.  Most of us are pretty sick of it and trying to change the system.  You know, take our party back so we can take our country back?  Obama is 08s empty suit.  Like charging people to come in to listen to his "motivational and inspirational" rallies, or Elmer Gantry if you will.


by dkmich on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 05:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 2)

Two nitpicks:

James Rubin, son of Clinton's former treasury secretary, Robert, who framed Republican talking points around Democratic economic policy

Robert Rubin framed right wing Republican talking points around moderate Republican economic policy, sold as the new Democratic economic policy.

Reich was the member of the Clinton team pushing Democratic economic policy.

And with:

He doesn't seem to pit One America against the other
... linking to JohnEdwards.com ... the "One America" of the OneAmericaCommittee is not one or the other of the Two Americas, it is an argument that we need to pursue economic policies to get back to the time when the divide was not an unbridgeable divide.

So I would prefer that be phrased, "He doesn't seem to put the Two Americas against each other ..."

And then on the argument as a whole:
This may well be too harsh. While I very confident that Clinton is seeking votes from one of the Two Americas in order to pursue policies in the interest of the other, I still need to see the substance of Obama's policy proposals to see whether he steps back from the small steps in the right direction in Audacity ... and, make no mistake about it, sticking to the Wall Street / Rubins line will in many cases require refraining from even small steps in the right direction ... or whether he decides to aim higher.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:35:55 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 0)

Where did I mention Bob Reich, who could never be confused with Rubin.  One's 6'3", the other's 4'11" for pity's sake.  But Okay, I skipped a step.  ;-)

But I will change the One to Two.  It does read better that way.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:49:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 0)

I was reacting to ... "who framed Republican talking points around Democratic economic policy"

Rubin wouldn't know Democratic economic policy unless it kicked him in the shins. The member of the team that understood Democratic economic policy was Reich, and he was marginalized early on.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 0)

no argument.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:15:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 2)

For what it's worth, Robert Reich is awesome.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

You can be a politician and be real at the same time.  I've known a few in my life.  Most are really down to earth and real.  
You cannot say you aren't real but, are a salesman and have make a living.  Or have to sometimes not be an angel but, does that not mean you are not authentic or real???
Besides, like the title of this diary, we who support Obama see those who support Edwards as seeing him in that light.  Oh, walks on water.
So, We see the other as thinking that way.  
by vwcat on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:41:35 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 2)

He voted against some CFR, he voted for some trade deals, made a speech in front of the DLC, voted for the war under questionable circumstances, I can think of quite a few things I'm not that happy about Edwards with.  But he's made up for some of that with me.  He's for publicly financed elections, he voted against every trade deal after like early 2003 or something, has gone against just about everything the DLC stands for, has said he was wrong about his war vote, etc.
John is simply the best of the lot as far as what I'm looking for.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:01:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think the issue is whether he's selling .. (3.00 / 3)

... but rather the quality of the product. Does the engine run smooth because of the quality of the care under the previous owner, or is it some used car salesman's gimmick that will stop working next week. Its not leaking oil, but is that because the seals are working, or because of sawdust mixed with the last quart of oil?

We very much need a successful pitchman (or pitchwoman), but we also need them to be selling the genuine article.

I am confident that Hillary is pitching lemons. I am confident that Edwards is selling the real article. Obama, like I said, I don't know either way. Over the next six months, the policies he puts out, or else refusal to go beyond the unambitious incrementalism of Audacity, will tell the tale of the tape.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:20:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think the issue is (3.00 / 1)

Incrementalism, but also Obama is obsessed with the process, not so much the results.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a good point ... setting clear ... (3.00 / 0)

... goals about policy outcomes is more an outside-the-beltway concern. Getting good process is more an inside-the-beltway concern.

Indeed, process improvements are important to the extent that they help pave the way for good policy outcomes.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:41:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So how the hell... (none / 0)

...do some of you sit there talk about "the outcomes" rather than the process, say you support a candidate that took us to war and was a conservative Democratic Senator (Edwards), and at the same time attack Barack Obama who is in the process of legislating us out of this war, who doesn't take lobbyist money, and who is a proven progressive movement builder and legislator?


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:57:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

GFO (none / 0)

It's subjective to say he was conservative.  remember, the National Journal ranked him as the 4th most liberal senator for one year, and he was consistently one of the most progressive in the SOuth, perhaps second only to Bob Graham, and often he wasn't behind Graham.
The war isn't my big issue.  The economy is.  John is leading on that by talking to union folks and has union folks as his top staffers, Barack is talking to neoliberals and lobbyists.  John won't take money from lobbyists or PACs, but Barack's campaign is asking lobbyists' wives for money, and asking for access to their networks.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GFO (none / 0)

"Barack Obama is talking to neoliberals and lobbyists"

Senator Obama just returned all his lobbyist money. And I thought that networks were important things to build. Just because someone lobbies (as I do as a citizen lobbyist, and I hope others do), and because they have networks, doesn't make them bad people.

For candidates who take lobbyist money, what eventually comes about is a potential conlflict of interests. When 100,000 people can come to you and say hey, i donated to your campaign in the first quarter...thats something to be proud of.

And if John Edwards had kept his Senate seat, he'd be doing the same.


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:16:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GFO (none / 0)

You are being intellectually dishonest in this thread.  Why would Barack "refuse" to take lobbyists money and why would it be good of him to return what he had gotten, if there is nothing wrong with doing business with lobbyists?


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:29:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're being Sean Hannity (none / 0)

Intellectually dishonest. Should be fun...

Taking lobbyists money, who professionally ask you to do things, creates a conflict of interests.

Thats why Obama agreed not to take lobbyist money.

Taking money from 100,000 people on the other hand, and raising more than twice as much in small dollar donations than the other Democrats, shows an acting desire for broder representation of America in the government, and indicates a broader show of support for a candidate than just lobbyists or big money intersts (of which Edwards took a larger percentage than Obama last quarter.)


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 03:54:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're being Sean Hannity (none / 0)

I have no idea what you're talking about, and now you're avoiding the issue at hand.
1st- John doesn't take money from PACs or lobbyists.
2nd- Barack pledged to not take money from lobbyists, but then his campaign solicits their spouses and asks for their networks.  I acknowledge that he has raised unprecedented levels of cash, and in fact he is my second choice, I merely intruded into this conversation because you are being dishonest.
Make yourself coherent:
Is it alright to associate with lobbyists, and Barack's pledge is merely symbolic, or is it not alright, and he is doing something bad?
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're being Sean Hannity (none / 0)

Intellectually dishonest. Should be fun...

Taking lobbyists money, who professionally ask you to do things, creates a conflict of interests.

Thats why Obama agreed not to take lobbyist money.

Taking money from 100,000 civilians on the other hand, and raising more than twice as much in small dollar donations than the other Democrats, shows an acting desire for broder representation of America in the government, and indicates a broader show of support for a candidate than just lobbyists or big money intersts (of which Edwards took a larger percentage than Obama last quarter.)

Lobbyists wives and brothers and uncles and even networks are civilians. Can he not accept money from anyone who has a vested interest in anything?


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:39:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're being Sean Hannity (none / 0)

Sure, lobbyists' wives (and husbands, for that matter) are citizens with their own points of view, and I don't believe it's necessarily right to refuse donations from them. Same goes for the clients of lobbyists.

But when Obama's campaign actively seeks the support of lobbyists in the form of shaking down their client networks, and in addition, cashing a check from the lobbyist's bank account as long the spouse signs the check, you can see how that violates the spirit of Obama's pledge to steer clear of lobbyist contributions.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well...no (none / 0)

He said he would not take lobbyists money.

He didn't say that lobbyists should keep their wives and uncles and brothers and mothers from contributing.


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 11:56:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Take off your blinders!!! (none / 0)

I don't know how to make this any clearer.

1)If you say you don't take money from lobbyists, but you tell lobbyists that you would welcome a contribution from their spouse, you're still soliciting contributions from lobbyists.

2)If you tell lobbyists that you can't take their money, but you would really like them to work their client list for campaign contributions, you're still soliciting contributions from lobbyists.

3)If either 1) or 2) is true, and you've also received far more small-donor contributions than everyone else, or the biggest crowds at your speeches, you're still soliciting contributions from lobbyists.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 01:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong. (none / 0)

Because a lobbyists' family is not that lobbyist.

And asking about their friends isn't taking money from them.

Barack Obama doesn't take lobbyists contributions. And just returned $50,000 to them. His fundraising operation is a grassroots one, based more on small donations than any other candidate. What is your problem with that?


by faithfull on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 01:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong. (none / 0)

faithfull, the point of Obama not taking lobbyist contributions is because lobbyists, working on behalf of special interests, have way too much influence in Washington. We know that's the point because Obama gave us that very reason. But a lobbyist's influence isn't just in the cash he or she can give to your campaign - it's really derived from the connections he or she has throughout Washington. I don't see why Obama deserves the slightest bit of credit for not accepting lobbyist contributions if he will turn around and ask them for help in raising money through their client networks (not their friends, as you put it.)


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're being Sean Hannity (none / 0)

What a non-answer.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:13:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really good point (none / 0)

Obsessed with process might come from being an organizer and a professor.  Obama keeps striking me as someone I would enjoy sparring with in a classroom.  But we need a trial lawyer more than a constitutional lawyer right now.  And we need someone who will win rather than settle out of court.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:44:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We need a trial lawyer (none / 0)

instead of a constitutional lawyer.  This strikes me as a strange comment inasmuch Bush et al have SHREDDED our constitution.


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

That's right little cat, there is a difference between populism as a rhetorical device and populism as a philosophy.  Being real and down to earth has served politicians on the left and the right from Honest Abe to Huey Long to Truman to George Wallace to Ronald Reagan to Bill Clinton to Brian Schweitzer  and Jon Tester here in Montana.  Where the rubber meets the road is where they stand on the basics of supply side or demand side economics. Are they willing to forsake empire to save democracy?  Are they willing to stand with labor and increase the working society's voice in government?  

I'm looking for someone to pick up the banner of the Democrats who once had "a fighting faith".  We cannot rise above the fray.  There is too much at stake.  I can't just "feel" that someone will keep us from the abyss.  I want the details.  I want the cold hard facts because that's what it will take to get us out of this mess.
Americans are tired of the flim flam.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:47:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Read his policies.
Read his speeches.
Read the bill he's introduced to bring the troops home by next year.

There's plenty there, and there will be plenty more to come.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's funny (2.33 / 3)

for all the loose talk about Edwards's fans drnking the Kool Aid and such, it's Edwards's fans who are often willing to crticize Edwards. I do it all the time, on the death penalty, on gay marriage, on any number of issues.

By contrast, I've never once seen an Obama supporter criticize himn--for anything. They're unbothered that he shakes down lobbyists's wives. They're unbothered that he uses right-wing frames on Iraq and religion. They're unbothered that he headlined the launched to the anti-fair trade Hamilton Group.

You folks would have a lot more credibility if you could just once, say, yeah, he blew it. I still like him, I still trust him. but he screwed up.

Or can he do no wrong?


by david mizner on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:58:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's funny (3.00 / 0)

That's just bullshit.  I have been critical of him in some of my posts.  I have said when I thought he was doing the wrong thing, and you have posted on the same comment page... so eithe ryou aren't reading all the comments or you are making a broad generalization with little basis in fact.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:13:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I stand corrected, then (none / 0)

For what did you criticize him?


by david mizner on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:15:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You have criticized him (none / 0)

and Edwards, pretty fairly. But look around you.

There a lot of people praising Obama's positions for their courage and progressiveness and when things come to light that don't match this, instead of being critical and pushing back on their candidates, they are defending him for reneging on the very things they praised him for before. and throw fits when they get called on it.


by okamichan13 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong. (none / 0)

We're defending him when Edwards supporters make up bullshit smears, as some having been doing with increasing frequency. Such as that Obama "takes money from lobbyists bloodlines," even after keeping his pledge to return lobbyists money. Or when they splice a quote and take it out of context to imply that Obama says that Democrat hate the troops.

Obama didn't "reneg" on shit.

He is still the only major candidate who's been right on the war since day 1.
He still hasn't taken any lobbyists money.
He is still leading the charge to bring our troops home by next year.

Some Edwards supporters, to the detrement of a respectable man, just make shit up about Obama. And thats what we are forced to defend.


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's funny (none / 0)

I wish he hadn't framed the Iraq War issue in the way he had and was taking a stronger stand.  I'm against revoking funding, but for funding only with the timeline in the bill.

I also wish he had taken a stand against the netroots and stayed in the Fox debate.  I think it is an opportunity to reach out to the "news" network with the largest viewership.  I understand that it is an incredibly skewed news source, but it would bring the debate to an entirely new set of viewers who may change their mind once they are actually exposed to what Democrats have to say.

I am glad however that he is taking his time to think out his proposals.  It means that some might actually come to pass.  I want a President who when I look at their entire package - all their proposals - I find that it reduces the deficit.


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:13:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's funny (3.00 / 0)

Here's one (sort of) from an Obama supporter:  if he fails to come up with good, specific plans,  I will shift my support to Edwards.  That said, he's juggling a lot at once: both as a newbie introducing himself  {remember Edwards-son of a millworker-introducing himself to America?) while building a national organization from scratch.

Aren't you slightly impressed with what he has accomplished in such a short time?


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's funny (3.00 / 1)

yeah, absolutely. The size of his crowds, and his donor base, is impressive, no question. Which goes to a point I made upthread: given the reponses from the masses, he need not play the insider game he's playing.


by david mizner on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The raising lots of small donor money game? (none / 0)


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Impressed (none / 0)

but also suspicious.

Unfortunately I learned about politics during the LBJ/Nixon era.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Impressed +Suspicious (3.00 / 1)

Of course you are.  It appears you're filtering everything through Edwards coke- bottled glasses.  Compare Edwards's record with what he says Now:  he is accountable to no one; yet appears to pander to us, the netroots.  Scrutinize your candidate then get back to me on the hypercritical hypocrisy memes  

P.S.  Sorry to sound so strident;  I believe this over the top scrutiny masquerading as concern, as blind a spot as those who {hypocritically?) want Obama to be able to mount a defensse against Hillary on super-Tuesday.

I realize there are conflicting principles because life ain't black and white.


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's funny (none / 0)

What a ridiculous assertion.


by Korha on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Korha (none / 0)

Are you talking to me?!  (Taxi Driver).  Please elaborate, elucidate and just damn tell me what's on your mind!


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Korha (none / 0)

Oh, sorry. I was trying to reply to david mizner.


by Korha on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:05:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Korha (none / 0)

To which assertion are you referring, Korha? I need to know which one in order to prove you wrong.


by david mizner on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:57:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

See.. (none / 0)

coal-to-liquids.

Troll rated for the repeating that Senator Obama, who has a much larger grassroots base than Edwards, and who takes a lower percentage of his money from large donors, "Shakes down lobbyists wives."


by faithfull on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:00:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's funny (none / 0)

This diary suggests Obama is comparable to George Bush and Richard Nixon. It is dripping with adolescent innuendo and cheap antagonistic sarcasm. It's not worthy of validation.


by fisheye on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:05:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Reaction... (3.00 / 1)

Obama gets the big money from the big money folks because he seems like he can appeal to the unwashed masses, us little folks in the grass/net-roots.  He appeals to us because we don't see him as someone who is an establishment suck-up.

The idea that he might get big money in the cynical belief that he may garner support of the masses, then carry water for big money after being elected, well that's just depressing.

The idea that the masses may support him and not see or realize that he is a stealth candidate, well that's chilling.

So why do I have an uneasy feeling about all this?  Perhaps it has happened all too often in the land of equal opportunity for those who have means.


by citizen53 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:06:22 AM EST

will anyone call out this (3.00 / 2)

Obama also has no prohibition against using state lobbyists to raise money, even when they represent companies with business before the federal government.

this seems like a loophole


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:19:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ya Think? (none / 0)


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:59:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Chilling" and "uneasy" (3.00 / 1)

When vwcat talks about how he/she feels about Obama, my gut/ my intuitive nature, says the opposite.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels a chill and something in the pit of my stomach when I read from Obama's book that he could understand the appeal of Reagan:

   It was the same appeal that the military bases back in Hawaii had always held for me as a young boy, with their tidy streets and well-oiled machinery, the crisp uniforms and crisper salutes.

He has a disdain for anything messy and is often calling people who want big changes "zealots".  He does not like chaos or the messiness of the masses from what I've read.  Basically he's a business moderate who, because the whacko fringe right took over the Eisenhower Republican party has no where to go. He's a decent man, but he's in the wrong party. This quote shows again how divisive he really is. It's kinda passive aggressive and I'm pretty fed up with that too.

It's easyto get most liberals riled up about government encroachments on freedom of the press or a woman's reproductive freedoms. But if you have a conversation with these same liberals about the potential costs of regulation to a small-business owner, you will often draw a blank stare.

That may be true.  I fight that battle here in Montana constantly, but it's not that the special interests are bad interests.  But one of Obama's chief contributors is the head of a military contracting company General Dynamics.  His finance chairman is the Hyatt heiress whose hotels are not union friendly.  Come on.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  I've been fooled before.  I won't again.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Chilling" and "uneasy" (none / 0)

A Rockefeller Democrat perhaps?


by adamterando on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:18:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Chilling" and "uneasy" (none / 0)

You may be right.  An Eisenhower Republican is preferred over a Rockefeller Democrat.  It's funny Thom Hartmann keeps saying that Eisenhower was the best Democratic president we've had in 50 years and Clinton was the best Republican we've had.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:50:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Chilling" and "uneasy" (none / 0)

Obama states in "The Audacity Of Hope" that he is a democrat because we believe we are all in this together, while the republican's perspective is that you are in this alone.

Your comments are over the top, imo.


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:20:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BruceMcF wrote: (3.00 / 1)

"I am confident that Hillary is pitching lemons. I am confident that Edwards is selling the real article. Obama, like I said, I don't know either way. Over the next six months, the policies he puts out, or else refusal to go beyond the unambitious incrementalism of Audacity, will tell the tale of the tape."
_________

I have a couple of questions for you BruceMcF:

First, when you say you are confident that Hillary is pitching lemons, what is the source of your confidence based on what you are seeing and hearing from her in this campaign.  What has she put forth that you don't believe she is sincere about, might be a better way to ask the question.

Secondly, when you say that Edwards is selling the real article, what is the real article?  I have practically memorized his healthcare reform plan (I have the DVD); and it has some flaws, in my view.  What I mean is, if Hillary or Obama present plans that do not have those flaws, why would I choose Edwards' plan over theirs?  It seems Edwards was anxious to be the first candidate to present a completed healthcare plan, but when something is that well defined and carved in stone, what about the voters who might want to make suggestions to Edwards?  I feel he has presented his plan as take it or leave it.  Do you think this was wise?

I have a feeling, based on the plan Hillary is working on, that she is taking a more fiscally wise approach to healthcare.  She seems to really know where the wastes are in the current system and how to prioritize them in terms of changing them to save money; or getting rid of them altogether. And she is fiercely going to pursue the insurance companies for discrimination; for overcharging; for excessive co-pays, etc.  So while her plan isn't completed from A to Z, as Edwards' plan is, I feel she has a broader, overall understanding of how to ease us into healthcare reform, more by being wise and efficient, than radical.  I hope this makes sense.  I have a problem keeping my commments brief but I'm working on it. :)

I would bring Obama into this healthcare discussion more than I have, but I am still trying to find out what he has in mind.  Hillary laid out a lot of good concepts and intentions at the Presidential Forum in Las Vegas, and so did John Edwards by the way, but Obama left me wondering why he even showed up.   I guess I will have more to say about Obama and healthcare when I see him verbalize more about it and hopefully become more specific.

So ya, I guess my trigger in your post was your saying you are convinced of so many things.  I'm not, obviously -- but I am really paying attention and even though I didn't have a favorite candidate one month ago, and even though I never hated Hillary Clinton, she was the last candidate I ever expected to support - she is definitely earning my faith and my trust.  I think part of this has to do with the mess this country is in due to Bush and I am thinking we would be better electing someone who has an understanding of Presidential politics at a deeper level and someone who is world-reknowned and able to deal with every country - friend or foe - without having to spend too much time getting to know world leaders and earning their trust.

Lastly, and like I said, I am sorry for being such a rambler ... I have read all the books written by our Dem candidates, including "It Takes a Village" and the updated version of it; including both of Barack Obama's books; including John Edwards' book and including Elizabeth Edwards' book.  My favorite was "Saving Graces" and I ended up buying four copies to give as gifts.  If John Edwards doesn't go all the way in this election, I hope Elizabeth will write another book.  As First Lady, she would be too busy, but if she has the time at some point in the future, for whatever reason, she should keep writing.  I don't think there is an emotion inside of me that didn't get fired up while reading her book.  


by samueldem on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:52:46 AM EST

Samuel, your post reminded me... (3.00 / 1)

I would like to know what the Dem candidates would have to say (and what they'd do) about the situation in Bangladesh right now. It seems that the government's been turned on its head for all of the political changes (and challenges) brought about by forward-thinking people such as Dr. Mohammed Yunus, who has empowered millions of women (many of them farmers) through microfinancing. What if troubling signs that Bangladesh's new authoritarian order might work out as something more than just temporary? What will happen to these female entrepreneurs that have worked so hard to gain economic power and democratic voice? Their current Army chief has declared outright in a recent speech, "We do not want to go back to an elective democracy." It's time for America to lead, because democracy is sliding backward so fast in Bangladesh. (As it's sliding under the Putin government in Russia).

These are the ideas we should be requiring of our potential leaders. The loss of Bangladesh as a healthy democracy would be diastrous for this world, in my opinion. The media likes to make a popularity contest out of the elections and seldom requires any of us to ask the meaningful questions nor do they provide the public with food for thought about those meaningful issues. Is it any wonder we got a Bush in the White House? What's amazing to me is that the media hasn't changed a bit. It's still just a horserace to them.


by iddybud on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:04:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BruceMcF wrote: (3.00 / 0)

I wasn't restricting it to Universal Health Care, but that is a good case in point. We don't know what any Hillary Universal Health Care coverage would look like ... except that it won't be arriving "in her first term", so we can't do an Apples and Apples comparison to say whether it would be more or less fiscally responsible than Edwards ...

... but in my view, $90b to $120b to close the gaps in a 6% pay or play mandate system and bring it up to Universal Health Care is clearly fiscally responsible. If that is the price of preventing the present runaway health care service price inflation from spiralling further out of control, its a bargain at the price.

Yes, I agree that Hillary knows the ins and outs of Health Care, and knows how to "make Health Care More Affordable" and "make Health Care More Assessible" and all the other weasel words for explaining why the United States cannot have a universal health care system, uniquely among all high income industrial economies, and to the substantial detriment of its international economic competitiveness. But even if it is a well-tutored pig in a poke, its still a pig in a poke.

I supported John Edwards early in 2004, because Gore wasn't running and I was looking around for someone to support, but at the time I kind of liked him in what I found to be a very dissappointing field. It was when I checked up on what he had been up to sometime in the middle of 2005 that I started to think he was more than an attractive politician who was against bogus "free-trade" agreements at any cost and had a few good policies within the artificially imposed constraints of balanced budgets. Its hard to remember where the national conversation has come from, but back then, pre-Katrina, talking about domestic poverty wasn't considered "cool" in the CW and poverty internationally was simply off the radar screen entirely. A Poverty center to learn more about the problem and how to make progress on the problem was a useful contribution in the here-and-now, entirely independent of issues of political ambitions. And I saw a lot of unsolicited advice from the punditocracy about how nobody was interested in the issue, and it was "nice" but a guaranteed vote loser among "the middle class".

And so I was watching him through the 2006 political season, and a lot of what he did was like that ... whether or not it advanced his political cause, it did good in the here and now. Indeed, simply having a Universal Health Care plan, and stating where the funding is going to come from, has lifted the level of the debate. The debate could easily have been mired at exactly the level of windbaggary with weasel-words where we will find Senator Clinton's policies ... clearly that is where she was hoping and expecting it would remain mired ... and instead we may well have two or maybe three genuine universal health care plans on offer going into the primaries.

I've got to get to work now, but I'll maybe have a shot at Sustainable Energy Independence policy and the difference between begging utilities to pretty please use this cover-story "clean coal" technology in return for a subsidy, and calling their bluff and insisting that any new coal plants that wish to be built must incorporate it.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:52:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Echoing Bruce (3.00 / 1)

Edwards did a huge service to all Americans by coming up with a detailed plan whether it was absolutely perfect or not.  We would never be even having this discussion right now if all the candidates were "promising to work on affordable heathcare."  Garrison Keillor pointed in "Homegrown Democrat" that we all stand around in backyards drinking bad Chardonnay listening to politicians talking about "affordable heathcare".  

Edwards has pushed back against the advice of consultants to talk about values not issues.  "Issues divide and values unite."  That's pablum.  Our nation is too sick for pablum. We need the beef. There is a sea change and Edwards feels it and has jumped on board.  
People out here in red country tell me that want single payer health care NOW! and they are willing to pay.  
I don't think Edwards is rigid at all, not from watching him grow and grow before my  eyes turning from a hawk to almost but not quite a dove.  His core beliefs have never changed though.   Like Lincoln, "Whatever is calculated to advance the condition of the honest, struggling laboring man, I am for that thing."


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

however.... (3.00 / 0)

Rich and poor, people like Obama.

From your Post article:

"It is the single easiest fundraising phone call that I have ever made, ever," said Jeffrey Katzenberg, the Hollywood producer, who set out to raise half a million dollars for Obama and raised more than $1.7 million. "In 25 years. Literally. For charity, politics, anything. It kind of blew me away; if I made 100 phone calls, 90 of them were successes."

And Mark I gotta point out that the Hill article is more than two weeks old and the most over-linked article of this campaign.  It's a dead horse.


by aiko on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:13:16 AM EST

Re: however.... (3.00 / 0)

Could it be though that rich people like Obama because of his non-specifity? Meaning, that they like him because he is inspiring but non-threatening to their power and social order?


by adamterando on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: however.... (3.00 / 1)

Could it be that rich people like Obama because they know that what's he's peddling isn't a fundmental shift back to the ideals of the New Deal, but instead incremental shifts in order to sustain the current system that creates a wealthy few while leaving the least among us less well off with each passing year?


by ManfromMiddletown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:15:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: however.... (3.00 / 2)

Many of the rich know exactly who Obama is.  He will be a caretaker for the status quo with a little more "feeling".  Like Bill Clinton, the party of FDR will further fade away.

As far as Hollywood is concerned, I work in Hollywood.  It's similar to Washington. Often when an actor finally makes it after years of struggle, they remember all the people that got them there.  Then there are those who don't. They begin to believe their own PR. They get something called "acquired narcissim" because everybody looks at you as you enter a room.  Katzenberg can call on the actors and get the "feel good" money.  He can call other mogels and get the establishment money that wants to sell more movies and TV in Korea and China and India and wants those countries tariffs and bans on Hollywood product lifted.  
Jefferson said we have to be vigilant.  I wasn't during the 1990's. But I'm paying attention now.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: however.... (none / 0)

'peddling'. How cheap. The incredulity of the unsubstantiated accusatory question can't be overstated. Obama must have left Harvard to work a voter registration drive and represent community non profits in Chicago just to infiltrate the "dirty masses" in order to ultimately subvert their interests in a nefarious master plan of elitist domination. What a joke.  


by fisheye on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If they like him for his nonspecifity (3.00 / 1)

they are in for a rude awakening.  Look at his legislative recor at both the state and national levels:  he does what he think is right.  His record and philosophy mesh well.

I agree with the criticism that he is an incrementalist...butI also believe he has a progressive end goal in mind.  He tries to build consensus at each level that mandates translating a plan into something tangible.

Probably not good for those of us that are TIRED of delaying gratification.  However, I'm also skeptical of promises proffered in order to get elected.  Intelligent cases can be made either way.  As you may surmise from my post, I understand Obama's approach: I am both idealistic and pragmatic;  so is Obama.


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is where I point out Globalization dissident (3.00 / 0)

Rubinomics may have looked great during the Bill Clinton era, but the cracks are showing and it will take a big business type with Wall street "cred" to convince the mainstream that globalization has taken us to a place where we did not imagine we would be when we began the experiment. Corporations that are born to eat anything that gets in their way have no patriotic streak that could overcome their chartered promise to survive.  

The establishment is rethinking globalization, and I'm not sure where Obama will stand on this. William Greider writes in the Nation about Ralph Gomory, author of Global Trade and Conflicting National Interests. Mr. Gomory is emerging as an unlikely dissident who is proposing a new way to understand, and reform, the world economy.

CEOs of American corporations won't be particularly happy with the plan, but then again, was our government meant to pledge allegiance to the kind of business that runs strictly against the overall national interest?

Read it HERE. I think it makes many points that are relevant to the topic Mark is discussing.  


by iddybud on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:29:43 AM EST

In a nutshell, samueldem (3.00 / 2)

Allow me to respond to that.

1. Too long.  The Clinton's had 8 years to get health care reform.  I voted for them a second time because I still held out hope they'd get it done.  Yet, they didn't even try.  Now she wants another 8 years.  

She promises it will be there by the end of her second term?  2012?  When they started in 1992? Unacceptable.  By my count, that's 20 years too late.  Edwards at least will have things started in 4 years.  Who knows what Obama's doing.

If putting it in place quickly equals "radical" in your book, I understand. I think that every incremental step, every delay, is merely another opportunity for big pharma and the AMA and insurance companies to sit on the status quo and not budge another inch for another generation.

We're dying here, and much like the stem cell debate, delays equal lives.  Radical?  Wars are radical, letting our own children live in squallor and poverty without access even to the most basie of preventive care is immoral.  Only one candidate, so far, is treating this as a moral imperitive.  The only people who will be effected in a radical way are on Wall Street.  They, unlike the working poor, poverty stricken and even the middle class, can and will bounce back from this.  And that's the point.

2. The negatives.  You and I may not hate Hillary, but way too many people do.  Her negatives are about as high as her positives nation-wide -- and those undecided on her is amazingly small.  Even if she were to hurdle that fact and get into the Oval Office, the chances of her being as effective a president without the constant hounding we're all sick of is nil.  No other candidate carries such baggage.  No other candidate unites the opposition as effectively.  That's probably one of the reason she thinks it will take so long to implement any serious health care change.  Likewise, Obama will carry baggage, but of a more subtle and synister kind, the most ungly kind.

3. DLC/triangulation/third-way politics and economics are not what we need today.  The "left" today represents 60% of the country.  The center and the left are indistinquishable in many areas.  Clinton and Obama's play between the right and left to get to a compromised center may have made sense in the early 90's, but today we end up in a "middle" that is still too slanted towards the right than necessary, than representative of the nation's true desires, or acceptable to me.

4. Weirdly, the war is less concerning to me than the other points.  I'm confident that any Democratic president will reject the simply stupid foreign policies of the Bushies, much to the reliefe of the entire world.  The details will be entirely dependent on what they are facing at the time they take office.  

I'm delighted that Obama is taking a serious look at how to avoid genocide when we stand down.  I take Hillary at her word that she will end the occupation the day she takes office.  But I believe that the President and the Iraqis need to have pressure on them right now to end this thing, and I believe Edwards' call to defund the surge and cut troop levels right now is exactly what all our congress critters should be rallying around right now.  They should be screaming that Murtha's plan be enacted, and yes, play chicken.  Bush and Cheney are bullies and will blink.  Give them no choice and say it every day.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:53:57 AM EST

Re: In a nutshell, samueldem (none / 0)

"Likewise, Obama will carry baggage, but of a more subtle and synister kind, the most ungly kind."

Could you try to expand on this point for me?


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In a nutshell, samueldem (none / 0)

I'd rather not, but as much as some expect Obama to carry the African-American vote, the inbred bigots vote in droves too.  I never bought into the idea that the black community voted as a monolythic bloc, even less so today than a decade or two ago.  The racists will at the least stay home (where they belong on any given day) or vote against him.

I hate it.  It sucks.  It's wrong. It goest against everything I believe and have lived my life to oppose -- but even though we've come light years from the days of Jackie Robinson (60 years, today), politics may seem like "inside baseball," but it hasn't come as far as real baseball in destroying the "color barrier."


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In a nutshell, samueldem (none / 0)

The new CNN poll, shows Obama (28%) 8 points behind HRC(36%) (w/out Gore).  (With Gore there is only a 4 point spread between the two.)

Anyway the point I want to make is that according to this poll, HRC's support is 53% black and Obama's is 36% black.

Obama doesn't need a monolithic bloc of black voters--he just needs a majority of American blacks to support him in order to drive HRC's numbers into the ground.

When (or if) blacks start to move to Obama he will move into first place in the polls.  And as a previous diarist suggested he is in no hurry to take over first place.  But I don't have any doubt that a majority of blacks will eventually move toward Obama.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/04/16 /pres.poll.4.16.07.pdf


by aiko on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 6)

What's interesting about the straddle, is that the campaign staff spokespersons have now acknowledged that the whole lobbyist charade is merely a "symbolic" gesture. It's realpolitik in the campaign world; but what I think you are pointing toward is that it's not a far distance from looking at this practice to having cynicism about Obama's candidacy.

What it also shows is a lack of understanding of the current campaign climate where things that are shallow, but put forth as real, that might not have been un-earthed a decade ago, are now made transparent. And so then the move has to be made by the campaign to retreat to a claim of symbolism.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 08:54:20 AM EST

Amazing how far we've come... (none / 0)

Jerome, Your post reminds me of just how far the netroots has progressed in a decade.

Imagine it another ten years on...

Technology (and those who've learned to use it) has certainly warped the parameters of the "some" in the old saying about how you can fool some of the people some of the time.


by iddybud on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:14:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed (none / 0)

We never would have known about this before the intertoobz.  But then again, would a candidate ever have thought it necessary to distance him/herself from lobbyists a couple of decades ago?


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:26:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

They have been acknowledging the symbolism for quite a while.  Though I think it is still a rather large gesture.  He returned 50,000 dollars from the first three months - how many hundreds of thousands did they also not take.  It is quite possible that this symbolic gesture is one that cost him outright beating Clinton in the first quarter.  She only raised 112,000 dollars more than he did.

Quite a symbol.


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:35:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Sorry, that 112,000 number is contributions from individuals.  He was outraised by 545,000.


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:45:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

If a bar has a bad reputation for sinister characters lurking around, and you declare loudly at the front door that you will not drink at the bar, then walk around to the back door to be led up to the VIP room, you're still drinking at the bar.

Edwards doesn't take PAC money or lobbyist money. That's symbolism backed up with real action.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:09:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Since I own a bar (none / 0)

I'd either call the cops on the loudmouth running off my business, or offer him a free drink to talk it over and see if there's a common ground.

Both of us would probably give a little.  

If that's Obama's stategy, reform them while staying friends, I hope it works.

It still stinks to everyone thinking of coming inside the front door when they see this.  Until he can announce some results, he still looks two-faced.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since I own a bar (none / 0)

I was speaking of the fiction that rests only on a technical difference between "the bar" in general and "the VIP room".

Turning down money from lobbyists is admirable and has real costs for your campaign. But if you're foregoing the lobbyist dollars, yet you get the lobbyists to activate their client networks for the pursuit of campaign cash, you might as well accept the lobbyist money, too. Both in symbolism and in real dollars, lobbyist donations are chump change compared to their connections.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

I haven't seen any stories written about Edwards' refusal so I'm wondering if you know...

Does he refuse to take money from lobbyists' spouses?
-I see no reason why you would refuse to take money from people around lobbyists, where would it end?  You can't take money from a lobbyist, their spouse, any direct family of the lobbyist or their spouse, any close friends of the lobbyist, their spouse, or the direct family thereof...

Does he refuse to take money from lobbyists' clients?
-I see no reason why you would refuse money from the clients of the lobbyist.  Having a lobbyist doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to donate.

Does he refuse to meet with lobbyists?
-This seems to be the only place where a line might be drawn.  If Edwards does this I would be quite impressed.  This is where it goes from symbolic to more meaningful.


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

I'm not sure if Edwards refuses to take money from family members of lobbyists. I haven't, however, seen any stories about Edwards actively looking for lobbyists' wives to donate, as Obama does. Edwards does not have one of the biggest lobbyists, Broderick Johnson, president of Bryan Cave LLP, as a close advisor, as Obama does. He doesn't have lobbyists trying to talk to other lobbyists abut raising money from their client networks, as Obama does. So there is a difference - a big one.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:59:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Yes there's a difference--The difference is that Obama is a much more effective fundraiser than Edwards is.

What's wrong with having a lobbyist as an adviser? He's got lots of advisers.
What's wrong with soliciting donations from anyone, even lobbyists clients? He never promised not to do that.


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing wrong if he wasn't running (none / 0)

as some kind of refomer.

E.M.P.T.Y.  S.U.I.T.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is the press looking? (none / 0)


"I haven't, however, seen any stories about Edwards actively looking for lobbyists' wives to donate, as Obama does."

We haven't seen those stories, but is the media digging through Edwards fundraising with a fine-tooth comb yet?  It's pretty clear that they've been looking for the "Obama isn't the real deal" stories for some time now.

Edwards is most certainly doing plenty of $2300 events, but mostly off the radar screen.  It's not like he's turning down David Geffen's money.


by rashomon on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the press looking? (none / 0)

Is David Geffen a lobbyist?


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is David Geffen a lobbyist? (none / 0)

No, but he plays one in the movies.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

That's a bad analogy. Here's a better one--

A bar has a bad reputation for sinister characters lurking around, and Obama declares loudly at the front door that he will not drink at that bar, then he walks around the corner to a different bar and has a drink there. Next thing you know Edwards supporters are calling him a hypocrit for drinking in a bar on the same block as the bar he promised not to drink in.

Sheesh! Grow up will ya!


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

No, that's not analogous to the lobbyist situation at all.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Your right, but it's a better analogy than the previous one. He made a promise and he kept that promise. Now Edwards supporters are trying to make hay over the fact that he failed to keep a promise which he never made.

Gosh! How unegalitarian of him! How dare he distinguish between promises he actually made and ones he never made? Obviously he's unfit to be President if he's so prejudiced against promises he didn't make?


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 1)

I'm not accusing Obama of breaking a promise on accepting donations from lobbyists. What Edwards supporters (and others) have noted is that he made a pledge not to take donations from federal lobbyists and PACs because, in his own words, "[he is] concerned about the role of lobbyists and campaign donations generally in our politics." But if you solicit money from the spouses of lobbyists and target their client network, you don't "seem too concerned about the role of lobbyists and campaign donations generally in our politics."


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that doesn't follow... (none / 0)

He could be "concerned about the role of lobbyists and campaign donations generally in our politics." and still take donations from them, but he has chosen not to.

Anyway, he didn't say, "I'm concerned about the role of lobbyists wives and clients..."


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:58:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you're not too good at logic (none / 0)

Obama has said that he chooses not to take donations from lobbyists BECAUSE he is worried about the influence of lobbyists in Washington. If donation = influence, surely agreeing to go through your list of clients to hit them up for cash on behalf of a candidate = influence, too.

Again, the accusation is that Obama is actively seeking out the contributions of lobbyists in the form of shaking down their client networks. He just won't accept lobbyists' individual contributions (unless their spouse signs the check), because he is worried about their influence. If you don't see that as hypocritical, I really can't help you.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:16:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're not too good at logic (none / 0)

I think you're the one who's not to good at logic.

Obama pledged to not take lobbyists contributions and he didn't take lobbyists contributions. That is a good thing which decreases the influence of the lobbyists even if it doesn't eliminate it.

You seem to be saying that, because he didn't take it even further than he pledged, this in some way negates the positive step he took.

He's never claimed to be an angel--he just claims to be heading in the right diection.


by Mystylplx on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

I do detect the sickly smell of the Axelrod in this campaign.


by adamterando on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:57:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He may be warm, but what's his policy on warming? (none / 0)

I have a diary up on Daily Kos about John Edwards' global warming policy. Has Obama gotten so specific? I think not, but I'm willing to be corrected.


by sirius on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:58:06 AM EST

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 0)

Barack is just like the rest of them.  Remember he is linked to Lieberman.


by orion1 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:36:59 AM EST

More silliness from the Edwards camp (3.00 / 1)

This whole thing is silly. Obama pledged not to take money from lobbyists and he doesn't. He never pledged to not take money from ex-lobbyists, lobbyists relatives, neighbors, or anyone who may have sat next to a lobbyist on the bus.


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:25:54 PM EST

More willful blindness from the Obama camp (none / 0)

I hear he can heal lepers too.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More willful blindness from the Obama camp (none / 0)

Really? I knew that he could walk on water, but I had not heard about the healing lepers thing.

Thanks for the info.


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 01:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 2)

Look, I'm sure Obama has some supporters who think he's the second coming of Christ or whatever. As for the rest of us, we just happen to like him better than all the other candidates. So why don't you make serious arguments against Obama instead of trying to insinuate that Obama supporters are naive, or ignorant, or blind.

About the topic at hand, I don't care that Obama has advisors who are connected to lobbyists. Truly, I don't. This isn't blindness, it's a recognition that THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with such an arrangement. In fact nobody has yet able to point out anything wrong it, besides the argument from hypocrisy, that it's hypocritical to run on a different kind of politics but still play the game at the same time...

But this is a misunderstanding of the Obama campaign is about. Obama's campaign is trying to be different, yes, but it's also being serious. Obama has never pretended to be ignorant about the realities of politics as it is practiced, nor for that matter have his supporters. Ironically, it's mostly his critics that have tried to paint him that way.  

Barack Obama brings a message of hope and unity, but it is not a naive hope, or a naive unity. He needs money, he needs endorsements, he needs power brokers and power players. He's been totally up-front about him. Here's a good quote:

"Look, I came up through politics in Chicago," he says. "When I arrived in Chicago in 1985, I didn't know a single person. Seventeen years later, I was the United States senator and in a position to run for president. So I must know a little something about politics."


by Korha on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:58:36 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 1)

This is a key phrase to remember

"Look, I came up through politics in Chicago," he says. "When I arrived in Chicago in 1985, I didn't know a single person. Seventeen years later, I was the United States senator and in a position to run for president. So I must know a little something about politics."

Obama came to Chicago to get into politics.  He is a politician first.

Edwards entered politics from a re-examination of what is important in life after a tragedy made him sit up and notice.  This is not the typical politician.  

I don't dismiss professional politician.  They do good work.  But Obama's strategy is calculated not a result of inexperience.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Obama didn't come to Chicago to get into politics.  He went to Chicago as a community organizer.  It was 10 years before he got involved in politics.  Community organizer to law school to civil rights lawyer and constitutional law professor to state senate.


by Obama08 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

I was quoting him.  And yes he did go to Chicago to get into politics.  That is how you do it.  That is why people go to Harvard Law School, to make connections.  It is not a bad thing, by the way.  It is just something to be aware of when you try to discern his motives.  He is the one saying that after 17 years he is running for president, not me.  


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Look, I came up through politics in Chicago," he says. "When I arrived in Chicago in 1985, I didn't know a single person. Seventeen years later, I was the United States senator and in a position to run for president. So I must know a little something about politics

Obama CAME UP THROUGH; he didn't go to chicago to PLAY politics. He went there originally as a community organiser. Can you imagine yourself, a Hawaiian, moving into the poorest neighborhood in Chicago at 24yrs old guy?

Obama IS A PUBLIC SERVANT FIRST; he loves to SERVE.

Thank God he's not NAIVE about Politics.

this whole topic is boring. SO obama didn't get crushed by Hillary Inc. so what?


by pmb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Then why is Edwards's record so at odds with his current positions?  Maybe, his original sin is not an indoctrination by chicago politics, but the possiibilty he is {successfully, may I add) pandering to a quick, vocal source of $ + support?

Not sayin' I'm right;  microscopes work both ways.


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

It isn't.  Look at his record.  Not that much has changed.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 02:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 1)

Not clear who you are referring to with

he is {successfully, may I add) pandering to a quick, vocal source of $ + support?

Edwards has always been a champion of the little guy and a liberal from a red state.  Amazingly he was the fourth most liberal senator as described in a WaPo editorial - Edwards's Record as A Freshman Senator  


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

Hit post accidently

Editorial link - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/art icles/A15414-2004Feb28.html

don't know what Edwards is doing that can be described as pandering.

If you are saying that about Obama, still not sure what you mean.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:18:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (3.00 / 1)

If you read Obama's 1995 memoir DREAMS FROM MY FATHER, there's an interesting section where his half-sister comes to visit him in Chicago. This is when he's still doing community oganizing, and she doesn't really understand what its all about. Obama tries to explain, but she keeps on wondering whether the work is just a stepping stone to something larger, a more important career. Obama confesses that he's thinking of going to law school, then maybe after that into politics.

"Are you doing this for them, Barack?" she asked, turning back to me. "This organizing business, I mean?"

I shrugged. "For them. For me."

That same expression of puzzlement, and fear, returned to Auma's face. "I don't like politics much," she said.

"Why's that?"

"I don't know. People always end up disappointed."

No, I don't believe that Obama is a politican first. I don't believe that he wants to be President more than anything else. There is a tension there, to be sure--the "chronic restlessness," as he calls it--but all that means is that he is not perfect. More importantly, he knows he is not perfect... I think Barack Obama embodies the best of both worlds. He is dreamer and a pragmatist at the same time.


by Korha on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)


Obama's greatest ambition, I believe, was to be mayor of Chicago. THis presidency was a DRAFT; and ordinary Americans will decide his fate. Those ordinary americans are grateful that he's not taking lobbyists money. it makes him free of their influence, and it doesn't take a tutorial session to realise that.

Obama; the only drafted president (oops, to be)


by pmb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:29:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest (none / 0)

You might want to read a little about G. Washington when considering a "drafted" POTUS.

There might be a few between him and Truman that never really wanted the job too.

Drafted?  Gerry Ford was frickin' drafted man!


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think Obama (3.00 / 3)

suporters are naive, ignorant, or blind. How's that? No more so than supporters of other candidates.

But I do wonder, are Obama supporters unbothered by Obama's Rubinomic leanings or do they share his views? That is to say, are Edwards supporters more progressive or are Obama supporters just as progressive but choose to accept Obama's neoliberalism? Or do they reject the evidence of his neoliberalism because it's generally presented by Edwards supporters like me?

You see, if I were an Obama supporter and heard that Wall Street powerhouses were helping to "refine" his position on Trade, I'd be concerned.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/con tent/07_14/b4028047.htm?chan=search

And this bit in particular would make my stomach lurch:

"Robert Wolf, CEO of UBS Americas (UBS ) and a supporter of Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.), says his candidate understands commerce and is promoting trade agreements that benefit the U.S. "both as a consumer and a provider of goods and services."

But I'm just at Edwards supporter, so maybe you can just just dismiss this bit of info, or you can justify your support for Obama by saying well, he opposed the war in Iraq at the outset, or maybe you really have no problem with the Free Trade Regime. Maybe you're not really a progressive or maybe you have a different definition of progressive.

I wonder which it is.


by david mizner on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think Obama (none / 0)

crickets.


by adamterando on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 09:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think Obama (3.00 / 1)

I direct you to the title of this diary, which insinuates just that.

I don't think anyone denies Edwards is somewhat more populist than Obama and somewhat to Obama's left on issues like free trade. Obviously, it makes sense to support candidates that are the closest to your political views. For some progressives, that may be a candidate like Edwards, and for others it may be Obama or Richardson even Clinton.

See, this is my problem with you. Apparently anyone to the right of you is "not really a progressive," never mind that they have one of the most progressive voting records in Congress, or have a list of progressive accomplishments, or have what are self-evidently progressive policy positions.

Again, nobody denies that Barack Obama recognizes the reality of globalization, and thinks that globalization can be a good thing. If this is a make or break issue for you, then don't support him. Fine. But don't go around pretending Obama hasn't staked out a position which is objectively quite left. Obama is not a "neoliberal" no matter how you try to willfully distort the meaning of that word.  

And stop trying to suggest that Obama's supporters are by association also "neoliberal" or "not really a progressive." What incredibly reductionist logic, as if all his supporters were the same. In fact one of the great things to my mind about Obama's appeal is that it is so diverse. I'm sure there are diehard free traders and fair traders alike who support him in spite of his stance on that issue, whether it be because of his foreign policy judgement, his positions on other issues, his biography, his message, etc.

I would probably agree that Edwards supporters are generally more progressive than Obama supporters. This is hardly a surprise... the man is running very hard to court the netroot and activist wings of the party, and it's where most of his base lies. Obama meanwhile has, as I said before, very diverse support, which I consider a good thing. I don't think this distinction is particularly important, though. Once elected President both will have the exact same consituency, the American people, and no matter how you slice there just ain't much daylight between Obama and Edward's professed policy positions.

P.S. You asserted above that you have never, ever seen an Obama supporter criticize Obama. This is self-evidently false, and propoganda in most gross kind. Be partisan, David Mizner, but don't be ridiculous.


by Korha on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where's the beef? (3.00 / 2)

It IS pretty funny to watch the desperation with which Obama bashers try to manufacture controversies out of thin air. The good news is that THIS is about the best they can come up with, and that being the case Barack Obama has got nothing to worry about.

Obama promised not to take money from lobbyists and he hasn't. He did NOT promise not to talk to lobbyists or take advice from them. He did NOT promise not to accept donations from their friends, relatives, clients, spouses or gradeschool classmates. That would be silly for him to do such a thing.

He also did NOT say that lobbyists are bad people who should be shunned, nor has he claimed that other politicians who do take donations from lobbyists are dirty or corrupt or anything of the sort.

This entire post is a perfect example of what Obama means when he talks about "the smallness of politics." This is a petty and superficial attempt to create a scandal where there's no scandal to be created.

But it's like I said, if this is the best Obama bashers can do then he's got nothing to worry about.


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 03:07:27 PM EST

Oh Bull #$%# (3.00 / 1)

We've got a criminal mob running our government and Obama holds himself out to be the antidote, something new, different, and someone who can be trusted to clean up the mess because he's supposedly untainted.

And he's full of crap.

But the best the Edwards bashers can do is to STILL make fun of the guy's hair.  Go to today's Politico.  I won't link it for you.  But if you want to talk about "smallness," the Edwards bashers are the lamest.


Mark Adams, Dispassionate Liberal
by Mark Adams on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:07:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Bull #$%# (none / 0)

I'm not an Edwards basher and I don't see anything wrong with his hair...

But you've gotta admit the sheer number of NONtroversies that have come out since Obama announced is stunning. Is he a muslim? Did he go to a Madrassas? Unpaid parking tickets from the eighties, oh and Gosh! he bought a few feet of property line from a neighbor! And he owns stock!

But the mans got mojo. None of them stick.

And you can say he's full of crap if that's your opinion. This is a country where we have free-speech. But if you think he's "full of crap" because he took campaign contributions from lobbyists clients then you're an idiot.


by Mystylplx on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 04:15:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

both bashers are lamest (none / 0)

both candidates are imperfect at best, and charlatans at worst.  


mydd straw poll vote: 1. other (gore) 2. unsure 3. dodd 4. edwards 5. obama
by colorless green ideas on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:55:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Charlatans? (none / 0)

no thanks, different from each other and imperfect yes, but charlatans, maybe you are thinking of that other party that starts with R?


by okamichan13 on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 12:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Bull #$%# (none / 0)

Hmm. I don't think I've seen a single Edwards bashing diary. And, I've never seen anyone bring up his hair before you just did.

Most of what I hear in criticisms of Edwards is his pisspoor judgement in sponsoring the AUMF for George Bush.


by fisheye on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 01:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bull #$%# (none / 0)

http://mydd.com/story/2007/4/16/191632/9 80


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 01:12:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bull #$%# (none / 0)

A six line diary on Edwards $400 haircut. Thanks for the laugh. What to make of it? Not much, that's just weird.


by fisheye on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:37:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bull #$%# (none / 0)

I assume there has been some Edwards bashing, but nowhere near as much as Obama bashing.

Why is it that so many Edwards supporters want to act like self-appointed Kenneth Starr's floundering around in a desperate attempt to find something to swiftboat Obama with?

Obama is not John Kerry and he will not be swiftboated so easily.

The whole argument here is silly. Obama made a pledge and kept it, and now you self-appointed Ken Starr's are trying to argue that the fact he didn't take it EVEN FURTHER, that he didn't go above and beyond what he pledged, this somehow negates the good thing he did by keeping his pledge.

The smallness of politics on display here at MyDD.


by Mystylplx on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 03:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's the beef? (none / 0)

You're being intellectually dishonest.  I'll leave it at that.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's the beef? (none / 0)

You'll leave it at that because you can't think of a rational rebuttal. That's why you stoop to baseless accusations of dishonesty. If you really thought I was being intellectually dishonest you should have no difficulty pointing out what you think that dishonesty is...


by Mystylplx on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 02:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's the beef? (none / 0)

Here's something you said:

Obama pledged to not take lobbyists contributions and he didn't take lobbyists contributions. That is a good thing which decreases the influence of the lobbyists even if it doesn't eliminate it.

You seem to be saying that, because he didn't take it even further than he pledged, this in some way negates the positive step he took.

He's never claimed to be an angel--he just claims to be heading in the right diection.

Here's something clarkent said:

1)If you say you don't take money from lobbyists, but you tell lobbyists that you would welcome a contribution from their spouse, you're still soliciting contributions from lobbyists.

2)If you tell lobbyists that you can't take their money, but you would really like them to work their client list for campaign contributions, you're still soliciting contributions from lobbyists.

3)If either 1) or 2) is true, and you've also received far more small-donor contributions than everyone else, or the biggest crowds at your speeches, you're still soliciting contributions from lobbyists.


Now it isn't exactly the same as taking money from lobbyists, but it is dishonest still, and acting like there is nothing wrong with doing this, though there is something wrong with soliciting lobbyists, is intellectually dishonest.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue Apr 17, 2007 at 04:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's the beef? (none / 0)

agree...

these obama bashers are desperate... they will even make stuff up.. they'll post stuff by racists and say "see this is obama!".. they'll say "he was on foxnews" when he wasn't.

i don't think obama is jesus but obama bashers seem dissapointed he is not.


by serge in dc on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the sad truth is that (none / 0)


barack's record flies in the face of these attacks.

people are cozying up to the "where's the beef" narrative.

obama has a thick progressive RECORD, not so much John Edwards.

obama will make liberals proud; that i know.


by pmb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 07:13:30 PM EST


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