Most Primary Polls Inflating Clinton's Advantage

Looking through the internals of the new Los Angeles Times / Bloomberg poll, I was struck by this little nugget (emphasis mine):
The Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll contacted 1,373 adults nationwide by telephone April 5- 9. Included are 1,246 registered voters, among them 557 Democratic primary voters and 437 Republican voters.
Ummm... their Democratic primary voter pool includes 45% of registered voters nationwide (557 of 1,246)? Pardon my French, but that is just fucking absurdly high. The Democratic primary electorate will not even come close to making up 45% of registered voters in any state, much less nationwide. In New Hampshire in 2004, the state which boasts the highest presidential primary turnout of any state in the nation, where members of any party can choose to vote in any primary they like, and in a year where there was no seriously contested Republican primary, the Democratic primary electorate represented only about 25-26% of the registered voting population (220,000 of 853,000). In 2008, many states holding primaries and caucuses on February 5th or earlier will have closed primaries open only to registered partisans, every state will feature a seriously contested Republican primary, and every state will have a lower voter turnout than New Hampshire. We are talking about, at best, 15-20% turnout of the registered voting population in most states for Democratic primaries and caucuses, no where near 45%.

Absurdly high projections of Democratic primary turnout can be found in other recent national polls as well. Gallup's latest poll sampled 1,008 adults nationwide, including 491 people in their Democratic trial heat. That projects a Democratic primary turnout model of over 50% of registered voters. Time's latest poll sampled 1,264 adults nationwide, and included 511 people in their Democratic preference trial heat, for a primary turnout model of over 40% of registered voters. Pew sampled 1,503 adults in their latest survey, and included 614 people in their Democratic preference sample, thus projecting a national primary turnout model of over 40%. CNN sampled 1,027 adults nationwide, and included 447 Democrats in their presidential preference trial heat, thus projecting a national primary turnout of over 45%. None of this makes any sense. None of these news outlets and polling firms are making any attempt to actually try and poll anything resembling an accurate makeup of the Democratic primary and caucus electorate nationwide. Not only are their turnout models way, way too high (they would even be too high for general elections in presidential years), but I bet not a single one of these polls makes any attempts to adjust for the primary / caucus rules specific to the state where people are being polled. For the most part, these national polls simply cannot be considered serious attempts to determine the current state of opinion among the Democratic primary electorate.

The reason this matters is because there are important, significant differences between public opinion among people who simply self-identify as Democrats, and people who will actually participate in Democratic primaries and caucuses. Consider the following in Iowa:
Among a subsample of likely Democratic caucus-goers polled before the Edwards announcement, Edwards led with 30.2 percent, followed by Clinton at 24.4 percent and U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) at 22.1 percent. After the announcement, both Edwards and Clinton moved up, while Obama dropped. Among likely caucus-goers after the Edwards announcement, the results were: Edwards 36.4 percent, Clinton 33.9 percent and Obama 14.4 percent.

Among all registered Democrats (not just likely caucus-goers) asked who they would support for president in 2008, before the Edwards announcement the front-runners were: Clinton - 21.1 percent; Edwards - 19.7 percent; Obama - 18.8 percent; don't know - 32.9 percent. After the announcement, some change was seen for both Edwards and Clinton, with a substantial move away from "don't know" and Obama: Clinton - 29.5 percent; Edwards 23.2 percent; Obama - 11.4 percent; don't know - 28.7 percent.
Edwards does better among likely caucus-goers in Iowa, while Clinton does better among the wider net of "registered Democrats." Further, in February, Pew found striking differences in potential support between Clinton and Obama among people who were paying close attention to the campaign, and people who were not. Specifically, Clinton led Obama 56-48 among potential supporters who were following the campaign closely, but held a much larger, 42-23 lead, among people who were not paying close attention. In other words, Obama's potential support increased by more than 100% among people following the campaign, while Clinton's increased by only 33%. And then there is this little nugget from today's LA Times / Bloomberg poll:
Though Obama ran even with Clinton among college graduates, Clinton did better among less-educated voters.
Again, Clinton is weaker among high-information Democrats who are more likely to vote in Democratic primaries than she is among all self-identified Democrats. This goes a long way toward explaining the huge difference found in some primary polls, such as Zogby and Rasmussen, which poll "likely" Democratic primary voters, and all other polls which are throwing an absurdly wide net for the 2008 Democratic primaries. According to Zogby and Rasmussen, Clinton's lead is typically around 8-10% nationwide (5-12% is the wider range), whereas her lead in most other polls approaches twice that amount, 15-20% (10-24% is the wider range). Considering the differences in the types of samples these polling firms are using, I have no choice but to conclude that the Zogby and Rasmussen polls are by far better indicators of the current state of opinion among the Democratic primary electorate. Clinton's lead is almost certainly about half the size that most polls project it to be.

The fact is that most self-identified Democrats, or even most registered Democrats, will not participate in the 2008 presidential primaries. Since there is a noticeable drop within Clinton's performance among those Democrats who are most likely to participate in either primaries or caucuses, it seems that the three-way is even more competitive than we had previously surmised. Polls that project Democratic primary turnout in the 40-50% range among all registered voters, which right now is what most national primary polls are doing, inflate Clinton's perceived national advantage. These polls are conducted because they are cheaper than polls which include a decent sample of likely Democratic caucus goers, so basically what we are seeing here is a case of garbage in, garbage out. You get what you pay for in polling, and if you are not willing to pony up for a more expensive poll that is able to accurately sample the Democratic primary electorate, don't expect that your poll will end up being an accurate reflection of the Democratic primary electorate.

It is also worth pointing out that Giuliani performs far worse, and Romney performs far better, in polls that sample likely Republican primary goers, rather than all self-identified and / or registered Republicans.



Display:


Re: Clinton's Advantage (none / 0)

is that the common man/woman would vote for her while the liberal-elite votes split between Hillary, Obama and Edwards almost equally. Hillary still leads whichever voter model you choose. More importantly, she leads with women (black or white). This is important because women are more likely to vote than men.


by meliou2 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:18:55 PM EST

no, I disagree (3.00 / 2)

I've been talking to a lot of Democrats who regularly attend caucuses (not just regular general-election voters) in Des Moines and its suburbs. I think many of these people would fall into the "liberal-elite" category. The support for Clinton is just not there. A huge number are undecided, and mostly undecided between other candidates. An answer I hear a lot is, "I don't know--not Hillary, I know that."

I am finding a lot of Edwards supporters and Obama supporters, but among that liberal elite crowd even Richardson seems to generate more interest than Hillary.

The low-information voters are generally not going to show up for the Iowa caucuses.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:26:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no, I disagree (none / 0)

desmoinesdem,  Is it your opinion that Edwards is a lock for Iowa?  Or is it too early to tell?


by pamelabrown on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Advantage (3.00 / 1)

... but her lead is dwindling in NH, and does not exist in IA or SC.

And of course, among low-information, low-engagement voters, she also has a far more substantial base of "will never vote for her" developed. Any time she loses ground among primary voters, she has to know that any effort she makes to regain that ground will be instantly seized upon by the radical right wing noise machine to attempt to further entrench her unfavorables. And the higher they can pump her unfavorables, the weaker her position becomes among the "any Democrat as long as they can win" crowd.

Given a strategic inability to make up ground in the primary race when she loses it, the prospect is for a long term slide through the remainder of 2007, with the main question of interest being the rate of the slide ... 0.25% monthly? 0.5% monthly? 1% monthly?


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Advantage (none / 0)

Actually, I have seen polls with Hillary trailing among Black women, so I wouldn't count on that if I were her.  


by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 02:14:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most Primary Polls Infla (none / 0)

Great post Cris, I think most real sharp poltical handicappers at this point think that it's good chance it will be Obama v/s Thompson as a careful look at polling enthusiasm and potential comes up with this matchup. The la times poll was horrable for Hillary because Obama is doing so well in general election matchups, it's early but that isn't the first poll to show Hillary barely beating a republican others beat by almost 20 points and losing to McCain and Rudy, if it becomes conventional wisdom that's she's uneelctable compared to Obama some establishment dems will bail, also among african Americans where the race has heated
up such as South Carolina, Obama is beginning to break away from the pack, Hillary still has the lead nationally but it's not hard to beleive that when all is said and done and dem primary voters are engaged in this campaign that Obama will win a big majority of those votes, anecdotally I know a few black people, those that are interested in the race like Obama, those that aren't much into politics say Hillary
because of Bill Clinton, when I tout Obama they say they don't know much about him or he can't win, as it becomes obvious he can win Obama is going to get these votes and he will have money to organize those votes as well.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:25:26 PM EST

Re: Most Primary Polls Infla (3.00 / 1)

I agree look at the recent Time Poll released today and it proves your point. Obama BEATS GULIANI and McCain and Clinton loses to Guliani AND IS tied with McCain.


by BDM on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most Primary Polls Infla (3.00 / 1)

Polls that do wider matchups show that both Obama and Edwards outperform Clinton ... and that is on the back of greater name recognition for Clinton.

If Richardson became better known, I would not be surprised to see him join the group of those who outperform Clinton in head to head match-ups. The right wing noise machine have had more than a decade to indoctrinate even the lowest information recipient of their noise against Hillary, and that puts a hard ceiling on her upside potential in any general election contest.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

who does well. (3.00 / 0)

If you had to guess, based on past experience, who should we listen to in Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, and South Carolina.


BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics
by Robert P on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:25:50 PM EST

Re: who does well. (none / 0)

In particular, if only Rasmussen and Zogby are doing any serious polling, should we adopt the general presumption in favor of Rasmussen over Zogby?


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: who does well. (3.00 / 1)

I would... Zogby is...well....Zogby.  


by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 02:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most Primary Polls (none / 0)

How does this stack up against with what happened in the Ct Senatorial primary where because it was a hotly contested race, it seemed produce an incredibly high turn out?


by bruh21 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:28:23 PM EST

MyDD poll? (none / 0)

Okay, now correcting this might be an interesting task for a MyDD poll. We could really bring something new to the table.


by BingoL on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:29:22 PM EST

Clinton is being set up to underperform. (3.00 / 2)

With the "inevitability" theme shot, these polls that inflate her numbers do no favors for Clinton in the expectations game.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:32:50 PM EST

Re: Clinton is being set up to underperform. (none / 0)

Yeah if she is showing leading in NH, IA, NV or SC in polls and then she gets beaten bad in the primaries, she's done.  


by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 02:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For better numbers we have to get them ourselves (none / 0)

This is a really great analysis and makes an important point.  I like the idea of using an MyDD poll to get better numbers (wasn't the suggestion to poll likely caucus-goers in Nevada?).  I don't think the major polling operations are going to do anything much different from what they're doing, because their mandate is to produce results that the general public can understand.  You're right to point out that in this instance what they're doing has a (probably not deliberate) pro-Clinton bias.


by DaveMB on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 02:35:10 PM EST

Nationally, it's tough (none / 0)

To do it right, you'd have to poll two people in Rhode Island, three in Wyoming, twenty in Texas etc etc, all in keeping with the local wrinkles, and then factor in changes due to moving the primary to Feb 5 and so forth.

And after that, you would have an accurate, but meaningless, poll.


Texas Economics
by IVR Polls on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 03:06:06 PM EST

Re: Most Primary Polls (none / 0)

Pity poor Chris and all his anti-Clinton company.  

When an occasional poll indicates upward movement for either Senator Obama or former Senator Edwards, it must be accurate.  When longstanding, many would believe far more reliable polling outfits, such as America's grand-daddy pollster Gallup indicates substantial leads for Senator Clinton, such polling must be inflated.

I am ever reminded of some regional GOP activists and their skewered logic.  When President Bush 43 was enjoying high ratings in the aftermath of 9/11, that polling was said to reflect true public sentiment, and must have been accurate.

When for almost all of his second term, President Bush 43 found himself mired in middle thirtieth to high twentieth polling percentiles, such polling could not have been conducted properly.  The grand-daddy pollster Gallup proclaimed the GWB slide, and has consistently maintained those low ratings.

The unreality of bloggers is astonishing.  When Senator Obama reveals amazing fundraising prowess, he is said to be not merely formidable but prohibitive.  After all, more of his revenue could be utilized for the primaries, could it not?

When Senator Clinton raised an astonishing, indeed unprecedented sum, not much prior to Senator Obama's release of his monetary figures--her sums were regarded by both the Netrooters and by the ever anti-Clinton punditocracy with suspicion, and thus needed to be parsed as to the nature of her actual cash-on-hand.

It is inconceivable to many Netrooters that there is actual enthusiasm for her.  

It is inconceivable both to many Netrooters and established anti-Clinton forces that she could have a most substantial lead based on many citizens believing she is simply the most supremely qualified.

Why, they ask, and here of course they point to accuracy in their cherry-picked polling results, would citizens want to elect Senator Clinton when SOME polls suggest she cannot be elected?  

Of course, they disregard those polls--including recent Rasmussen polls--which prove that she certainly can be elected, whether that is against Giuliani or McCain.

Senator Clinton has been a political force and a progressive voice at least since her days as the star graduate at Wellesley in 1969.  

She has had nearly four decades in the social arena, and some three decades in the political arena, and at least two decades surviving the thrust of reactionaries which would have made politicians less steadfast have gone into hiding.

She is married to the politician many regard as the most gifted of the past half century--another true political survivor, in every sense of that phrase.

I believe that Senator Clinton will do far better than even her two-to-one advantage in the current Gallup poll might suggest.

Although for Chris and his anti-Clinton minions it is inconceivable, it just might be that against a fine orator but very green Senator Obama and a most principled but not as savvy former Senator Edwards, Senator Clinton is viewed as supremely experienced and supremely focussed.

I believe she will be the nation's first female President.  And she will leave her GOP opposition--whether Giuliani or McCain or Thompson or Romney or whomever--in the political dust.

She's for real--and so are her Gallup numbers.


by lambros on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 03:21:13 PM EST

Re: Most Primary Polls (none / 0)

Nice rant!  I only wish it had something constructive to say.


A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy. - Teddy Roosevelt
by minvis on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 03:33:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But (none / 0)

"And she will leave her GOP opposition--whether Giuliani or McCain or Thompson or Romney or whomever--in the political dust."

This is akin to belief in fairytales. Why should Hillary suddenly become embraced by those 50% who would "never consider voting" for her? Her negatives are set in stone and they are not just caused by GOP smears but her very own personality. She does not radiate warmth to say the least.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But (1.00 / 1)

Sadly, it is purely Netroot fantasy to believe that Senator Clinton is unelectable.  

With all her negatives, she now either bests or is in the margin of error of besting any GOP candidate.  

And she has been defined, repeatedly, which explains her negatives.

The neophyte Senator Obama, for all his fine oratory, will be easily redfined.  

The reality is if he were the candidate in a general election campaign, he would be fortunate to carry his home state of Illinois.

Saner minds in the Democratic primaries will prevail.  And indeed are prevailing; thus the Senator Clinton lead.

Former Senator Edwards has exceptional conviction and drive, but with Senator Kerry as the other half of the would-be Democratic presidential team in 2004, neither man could really go the distance.  And as Donald Trump presciently noted recently, against President GWB, they ought to have easily gone that distance.

Senator Clinton has the experience and is a very seasoned veteran.  She has been biding her time.  When she has her turn as the Democratic presidential candidate she will both endure and triumph.

Misters Giuliani, McCain, Thompson, and Romney are as nothing besides a decade of Ken Starr inquisition and purely political Impeachment.

The reality is that those rival camdidates will whither away before her.  She will triumph in spite of Netrooters and those who have long shared their anti-Clinton venom.

Success brings the new reality.  Senator Clinton will follow the only successful Democratic presidential candidate of the past quarter century (indeed the only twice popularly elected Democratic candidate of the past forty years)--her husband Bill--to the White House.

She will then demonstrate the reality of how one governs successfully on both a national and international stage.

We will happily turn a page backward to a far better time, rather than turning a page forward in the hopes that a neophyte like Senator Obama can learn while on the job.

The last time that happened, we found ourselves being led by President Bush 43.

And the reality of his presidency was most sobering indeed.


by lambros on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You've got to be kidding! (3.00 / 1)

"The reality is if he were the candidate in a general election campaign, he would be fortunate to carry his home state of Illinois."

I live in Illinois and I'm not even supporting Obama in the primary, but this statement is utterly ridiculous.  Gore and Kerry both won Illinois rather easily in 2000 and 2004.  Obama is still well liked in the state and he would have no problem winning it in the general election.

As to her electibility, no one is even near her negatives (with the possible exception of Gingrich).  The latest Time poll has her negatives at twice as much as any Democratic or Republican candidate.  Also, if you look at the numbers in that survey, the percentage of "probably will not vote for" (14%) and "definitely will not vote for" (36%) is already at 50%.  No one else is even close to that.

http://www.srbi.com/4105-Q15%20Registere d%20Base%20-%20Final%20Report%20-%202007 -04-10--11.45am.pdf


A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy. - Teddy Roosevelt
by minvis on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:09:09 PM EST

Re: You've got to be kidding! (none / 0)

Any Democratic nominee will have a similar or higher percentage who will not vote for them.  Obama is at 37% now who will not vote for him (before the majority of the public has even heard much about him) in some polls and Gore is at 47%. Clinton and Gore are that high because they have been on the political scene much longer than any of the others running. Negatives that high in 2000 had no effect on Gore he still won the popular vote and in actuality the electoral vote.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:38:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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