Trying To Tie This All Together...

When I put up the Richardson post last night, I knew it would eventually spiral into some sort of huge fight online. I usually know what posts will start fights, but even when those fight happen, I am usually surprised at their severity.

Thee fights need to happen sometimes, but they also need resolution. My intention in this post is to tie everything back together. In the interests of clarity, here is my position:
  1. I don't want any American troops in Iraq, except a few hundred to protect the embassy. That is it, and that is what I consider "total withdrawal."
  2. I don't want candidates who support a continued American military mission in Iraq, beyond simply protecting the embassy, to claim they are advocating for the withdrawal of all troops, or even all combat troops. That strikes me as a dishonest contradiction. Just say you are going to withdraw almost all troops, while detailing how many you want to leave in Iraq, and what you want those remaining troops to do.
Bill Richardson appears to be the first major candidate to articulate my personal stance on Iraq. It was sweet for a candidate to not only state that he was for full withdrawal, but to also, you know, actually propose total withdrawal in policy terms. I was excited about this, because I have regularly seen my position dismissed as naïve, not serious, and a bunch of other patronizing terms. However, with Bill Richardson making the argument, this position can't be brushed off as "not serious" or "naïve" anymore without belying obvious intellectual dishonesty on the part of the person making the dismissal.

The simple fact is, that beyond embassy protection, all of the other tasks that every other candidate has suggested our "non-combat" troops will be conducting in Iraq post-withdrawal require a significant military presence in the country. Protecting American civilians engaged in humanitarian work, training Iraqi troops, conducting counter-terrorism operations, and preventing genocide could require 10,000, 30,000 or even 75,000 American troops to remain in Iraq itself, not just in neighboring countries. These other tasks go far beyond a few hundred requisite troops residing on American soil in an embassy compound. Further, these other tasks will all inevitably require continued "combat," no matter how that term is defined. The simple fact is that the civil war will continue in Iraq even after we leave, and having American soldiers in the midst of a civil war will inevitably result in combat for those soldiers.

I believe that those who wish to lead the Democratic Party are obligated to be truthful with our activists about how large they expect the continued American military presence in Iraq to be if they were to become President. Will their residual forces require 10,000, 30,000 or 75,000 troops? What will those troops be doing, and how long will they be doing it? It is equally an obligation of progressive activists to find out the details of these plans, and be truthful with each other when discussing what each candidate actually means by withdrawal and ending the war in Iraq. At this point, it seems indisputable to me that all claims of ending the war and all plans of total withdrawal are not the same. It would be to our own detriment if we continued to take them as such.

For example, at least from the perspective of my stated goals, it now seems to me that Edwards has a better plan than Clinton, but not as good a plan as Richardson, when it comes to withdrawal. And yes, there is a lot of daylight between those three plans. From what I can tell, Richardson only wants embassy troops (maybe not even that), Edwards wants that plus humanitarian protection, and Clinton wants all that plus more in-country training and counter-terrorism. The differences in American troops required for those plans will number in at least the thousands, and probably in the tens of thousands. Considering that we just fought tooth and nail over a 30,000-40,000 troop escalation, how can we possibly consider these small differences? I don't see any way we can do so.

Fortunately, if what I have already said isn't enough, there are ways we can agree to disagree. As I wrote earlier today:
If candidates want to say they will almost entirely pull out of Iraq, and leave a residual force behind, that would be fine, because it isn't a contradiction. If you think leaving a residual force behind is a good idea, that is at least something concrete, even though I disagree with you. If you would like to see all troops removed, and the candidate you support comes close enough to sharing that opinion for you, that is also a separate issue.
That would all be acceptable, and we could move on with our lives and our activism. What is not acceptable is for a candidate to claim s/he will end the war and completely withdraw from Iraq--something which so many Americans and progressive activists desire--while at the same time stating that s/he will keep either thousands or tens of thousands of American military personnel in Iraq. That is just bullshit spin. With every single Democratic candidate, save Gravel, making ending the war the centerpiece of his or her campaign, it is not overly parsing or demanding to ask for details, coherency and honesty on Iraq. When it comes to an issue of such geopolitical, electoral, humanitarian, and emotional importance, that is never too much to ask. Further, Democratic candidates and activists need to be honest, coherent, and detailed with each other about everything, because if we act otherwise, we will all begin to fail.

Update: I just want to add that MoveOn.org did us all a great service by hosting this forum last night. They should be applauded, because they were the ones who got us talking about the differences and similarities in our future plans for Iraq than we have as Democrats for a long time. This is even better than the House debate over the Iraq Accountability Act.



Display:


Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

I'm curious what everyone here wants. Troops for humanitarian missions? For training the Iraqi Army or police forces? And more importantly, why or why not?


by CT student on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:56:51 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Yeah, I think we would all be well served to talk about this subject without mentioning candidates, but what we find to be the best path forward. I think this invasion and occupation has left us in a position where no American diplomat, humanitarian, or trainer could operate without a high likelihood of being attacked, and thus, unlikely they would be able to achieve their goals, and so I think we should remove all troops in a gesture recognizing Iraqi sovereignty, and if the Iraqi's ask us back to help train or for humanitarian purposes, reengage the cause on that footing.  


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

As far as I'm concerned troops in Iraq would be fine as long as they aren't getting killed on a regular basis or as long as they are part of an international UN-sanctioned peace keeping force, though I'd prefer no US troops beyond the ones necessary for the types of basic functions performed by troops of most countries on foreign soil (guarding embassies, etc.).


by End game on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My wife is Congolese, and the UN Forces ... (3.00 / 1)

... in MONUC were critical to the establishment of the first democratically elected government since the day of Prime Minister Lumumba.

So I would be opposed to entirely ruling out forces supporting a UN mission. In that case, the combat troops certainly ought to be from countries in the region, but the mission could well be crippled without US logistics support.

I would also be opposed to entirely ruling out troops protecting workers on a humanitarian mission, as long as the humanitarian mission itself was agreed to by nations in the region and  the region was definite, rather than open-ended.

So I can wholeheartedly endorse Richardson and Edwards position of complete withdrawal of the current occupying force.

After all, obviously, neither of those entail using residual troops, "combat" or otherwise, from the present force, because withdrawal of the entirety of the present force would be a pre-requisite for establishing a multi-national force under an international agreement or to obtaining international agreement for any specific humanitarian mission.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:34:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My wife is Congolese, and the UN Forces ... (none / 0)

Nice to see that the commenters are being more realistic than the front posters on this one.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My wife is Congolese, and the UN Forces ... (none / 0)

I don't actually expect to get an answer from the front pagers on MyDD ... after all, I'm just "that train guy" from the Daily Kos ...

... but it sure would be nice to know that they understand how easy it is for a Kucinich to entirely rule out some hypothetical, no matter how irresponsible it would be, when candidates like Edwards and Richardson are obviously actually running to be President, and have to be more responsible in what they say.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:15:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

The way I see it, a lack of American soldiers means an acceleration of the civil war and casualties, as a) American soldiers are better than Iraqi militias at avoiding casualties due to better training, medical facilities etc and b) without the Americans to kick around or to bully the different factions to get along any longer, the fight for dominance will become more open and violent.

On the other hand, the amount of American soldiers required for reducing the violence to an acceptably low level, as the surge shows, is both impractical in terms of reserves of troops and severely unhealthy for the American economy in the long-term.

Personally, I don't think there's a right answer, but the least worst is probably an over-the-horizon presence. American military might cannot create a nation, but it can destroy one. If all sides in the conflict are aware that trying to create their own Srebenicas or launching a coup will get them hit by a wodge of cruise missiles, the civil war will be as civilised as these things ever are. Since being the friends of the factions is never going to work, we may as well play the role of the stern uncle, stopping them doing anything too awful. It won't make the West popular, but I think we may have burnt that bridge in the Middle East anyway.

Oh, and embassy troops are necessary. The embassy staff will need protecting, as they're hardly going to be popular.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:27:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

There are several stands on Iraq.  Right now I don't think anyone is right or wrong with ending it however is possible.  If Richardson's is the idea you like it should be your right to support it.
We all want it to end.  But, there are differing views on it and no one is absolutely right or wrong.  No one's stand is absolute.
by vwcat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:01:52 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Sorry, but I think that focussing on what should NOT be an issue in the 2008 election is just dead wrong.  Instead, we should be doing what Matt suggested earlier today --- pressuring the candidates to provide leadership in support of the Democratic Congress' efforts to end our Iraq involvement BEFORE November 2008.

With such leadership -- if all our candidates get together, and do something like help fund an advertising campaign aimed at pressuring GOP congresscritters to override a Bush veto -- the Iraq issue could be moot.  And even if the effort fails, there is no way TODAY to know what the situation in Iraq will be in the Fall of 2008, and demanding that candidates take unequivocal positions about a highly volatile situation in Iraq today is foolhardy.


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:02:42 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

There are near term fights, like the battle in congress, and there are long term fights, like what sort of residual force we keep in Iraq under a Democratic trifecta. I see no reason we can't discuss both.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Chris, my point is that the situation in Iraq is so volatile that trying to tie down candidates to specific positions on Iraq today is a waste of time and effort.

Its fine to ask about general principles, but no one knows what Iraq will look like when this debate will really be occurring -- and we should at least wait until were much closer to the primaries before demanding the kind of specifics you are --- nor (IMHO) should the progressive movement be putting its energies into arguing over whose hypothetical is superior.


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

You might be right, but I think the difference between residual forces and no residual forces is a pretty good point of principle to debate over.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

I agree.  We are not talking about scaling back our troop numbers in Germany.  There is no such thing as residual forces in an active combat zone.  


by Winston Smith on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

But, you have made the assumption that protecting American civilians means "residual" US troops in Iraq (and not ala Murtha, "over the horizon" in neighboring countries).  Given that the Edwards campaign email mentions those bases in Kuwait and the UAE and given that Edwards supports Murtha, that is a far more logical reading than your assumption that such a policy (which is SOP for the US, and thank goodness, I depend on it when I've been in hotspots like Ukraine and Georgia) means anything other than a willingness to go back in with limited troops to protect and evacuate American citizens.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Richardson and Edwards have called for complete withdrawal. Clinton has called for an indefinite occupation. Obama, as far as I can understand it, has called for Vietnam in reverse ... US forces scaling back from an occupying army to being "advisers".


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:37:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Obama has more or less the same position as Edwards: out with all combat troops in March 2008.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

The question is what comes after. I don't follow Obama so closely at the moment, waiting for him to come out with more policies. So he calling for all combat troops out by March 2008, followed by complete withdrawal of all forces?


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:09:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

It's very difficult for me to say that if a humanitarian worker gets attacked by insurgents, we should be so indifferent about it and just say "On your own, pal." Also, while Richardson has given a great position, it seems little different from Edwards' to me, and I am suprised that the humanitarian worker thing being left out was just the right amount for it to be your perfect position. But, as is life, not all things are perfect.

Either way, I must say that through this whole thing, I am starting to think more and more that Edwards is the rising netroots candidate. His straw poll numbers seem to be on the rise, and the intense support seen for him in the comments today is more intense and solidified than that of any candidate I have seen so far, especially against the views of the site owners. Also, on a personal level I am very impressed on how quick he has been on leading on issues (Iraq, Healthcare, Fox), and the fact that he immediately responded to criticisms against him in the netroots means he is listening to us and taking us seriously to a level seemingly unmatched by any other candidate, which gets a lot of respect from me. We shall see what happens in these next few months, but right now it is looking like we are solidifying around Edwards.


by JewishJake on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:03:13 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

It's very difficult for me to say that if a humanitarian worker gets attacked by insurgents, we should be so indifferent about it and just say "On your own, pal."

Why?  Unless a humanitarian project is government-sanctioned, why does it deserve protection from military forces?  It's not clear to me that we just protect Americans doing good work around the world.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Yes, but they are American citizens. When American citizens are kidnapped by foreign agencies, it tends to be one of our priorities to help them, or it least it has been as long as I have been reading history and things such as the Iran hostage crisis or the Cuban plane hijacking. Not to say it necessarily HAS to be the military, but this is not unjustified or unheard of.


by JewishJake on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

This also adds another possible category: military protection for US government-sanctioned humanitarian work.

Would Richardson support or oppose this use of the US military in Iraq?

I don't know, and while I do want to be honest and coherent, I'm not sure that level of detail is helpful at this point. I think plukasiak's comment, above, goes to the heart of this:

"Its fine to ask about general principles, but no one knows what Iraq will look like when this debate will really be occurring -- and we should at least wait until were much closer to the primaries before demanding the kind of specifics you are --- nor (IMHO) should the progressive movement be putting its energies into arguing over whose hypothetical is superior."


by BingoL on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Matt, add this to the list of things you're asking Richardson.

"If insurgents occupy a humanitarian compound and take US citizens hostage is he completely against sending in US troops to secure the lives of those US citizens?"

Because, I assume that his answer would be, "Hell yes I'm going to protect Americans."  And then all the "daylight" between Richardson and Edwards will end up being an illusion.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:29:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Good point.


by KickinIt on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Yep, military protection in the sense of accompanying a convoy is just asking for IEDs on your path and creating suspicions amongst the people the humanitarian missions are trying to help.

Protection in the sense of rescuing/negotiating the release of the kidnapped (through the Iraqis if they're capable and trustworthy, unilaterally if absolutely necessary) and taking out the kidnappers is really a no-brainer. I don't see a world of difference here.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:32:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

How many Americans affiliated with NGOs are there in Iraq now.... and how are they being protected?

I guess my point is that Iraq is a dangerous place for all Americans --- and I doubt that there is a large number of Americans doing "humanitarian" work whose efforts are not being protected by US troops right now.  I think its fair to operate under the assumption that when US troops leave Iraq, Iraq will still be a dangerous place for Americans -- and we have to decide whether we are going to commit to protect aid workers or tell them that the US will not guarantee their safety -- that they go at their own risk, and that the government strongly advises against it.


by plukasiak on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:14:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no conflict between Richardson's ... (none / 0)

... position and having forces protect a humanitarian mission at some future date. It simply places restrictions on what that could consist of.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:40:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

It's not clear to me that Richardson believes there should be a US embassy in Iraq.  Portugal closed its embassy due to security concerns: http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2007 -03-16-portugal_N.htm

I have an email in to the Richardson campaign about this.  Regardless I think it's a trivial issue, and the only reason it's even being discussed is because Edwards is using it to keep open the possibility of troops in Iraq.  I am very suspicious of language justifying the retention of troops in Iraq, as once you let the camel in the tent...

If they want wiggle room, these candidates need to earn it.  Based on their track record the only one who deserves wiggle room is Obama.  Clinton deserves more suspicion, and Edwards is in between.  


by Matt Stoller on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:04:47 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Not that I am saying he doesn't, but why does Obama deserve wiggle room, and Edwards and Clinton don't?


by JewishJake on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

I think Matt's saying because Obama was against the war back in 2003, he has more license now.

I don't agree.  Just because someone was anti-war doesn't mean they are more of a foreign-policy expert than someone who supported the war.


by KickinIt on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Rmember, our dear Obama was against the war from the get go, and Clinton and Edwards voted to give he president the power to invade.  Awww, isn't this guy from Illinois great!  He has towed the progressive's line from the get go.


by jets ya on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually (none / 0)

...it's because our dear Obama was right in being against the war.


TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

I'm curious to see if Richardson will really state for the record that there should be zero US personnel in Iraq.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But the only reason that there ... (none / 0)

... is a presumption that

... Edwards is using it to keep open the possibility of troops in Iraq.
is because of a decision to interpret it in that way. That motive is assumed, and then the interpretation of the remarks under that motive is the evidence that the motive exists.

And there is only an internal contradiction in the remarks if you decide to impute that motive in the first place.

The policy of complete withdrawal certainly constrains this hypothetical deployment of forces to protect a humanitarian mission. However, with my wife living in a country that is recently beginning to recover from an extended civil war, I would have been terribly disappointed if the MONUC mission had been a failure because of some politically imposed constraint due to sloppy promises made during a political campaign in some wealthy country somewhere.

It would, in other words, be grossly irresponsible to rule out in advance, prior to negotiation, prior to even determination of what humanitarian mission is being performed, what the make-up of any security forces would be.

We do know, however, that if the Richardson/Edwards position is adopted, the current forces will not be available for any such mission, because they will have been completely withdrawn.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bowers (none / 0)

Again i want to try and get an answer from you.  After saying all this, why do you still say you will vote for Edwards in the next straw poll?  How is Richardson going to gain momentum if we still are picking from Obama, Edwards and Clinton.  


by DocD on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:09:42 PM EST

Re: Bowers (none / 0)

I donated to Richardson today, and voted for Richardson in the MoveOn poll on last night's forum.

Edwards has done a number of good things lately, and I don't want to forget that. Also, details of all of these plans are always in flux. There are many factors to consider when supporting someone, and that is in flux, too.

At worst, Richardson is up to #2 on my list right now, and rising.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bowers (3.00 / 1)

His healthcare plan is godawful and smacks of the policies of Democrats in retreat circa 1997.


by adamterando on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bowers (3.00 / 1)

Richardson and Edwards positions on Iraq are pretty close to me. However, as I can't support Richardson, though I like him well enough. I'm not supporting any candidate who favors mandatory minimums laws. Richardson does. And so does Clinton, according to her issues page. That's a deal breaker for me. No way, no how is that that a progressive position on crime/punishment.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bowers (none / 0)

Thank you, Chris.  A premature 2 or 3 way race does us all a disservice.


Senator Al Franken. Have I died and gone to heaven? Not yet. We're still in Purgatory.
by NM Ward Chair on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:56:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Has Richardson confirmed that 'no residual troops' really does mean 'nobody outside the embassy?'  I never assumed that he meant that, but if he does, then there is a little light between his position and that of Edwards.

Personally, I think we owe it to the Iraqis to try to help put the pieces back together with humanitarian aid.  A truly international force to protect aid workers would be great. If we try that and it becomes clear that our presence is doing more harm than good, we need to get out, embassy and all.  But I would be happier if we at least tried to help before abandoning that country. Keeping US bases in Iraq is way beyond my comfort zone.

As of now, either the Richardson or Edwards position satisfies me, while Hillary would keep us way too involved and keep way too many American soldiers in harm's way.


Blogging for Alabama at LeftInAlabama
by Mooncat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:12:19 PM EST

If all you're asking for (none / 0)

is candidates not to make contradictory statements, well, ok.

It might not be clear to you, but it's clear to me that when any candidates says "I will end the war" that means they will discontinue our participation in the Civil War currently being fought by Iraqis in Iraq.

It never occured to me that those kind of statements would be contradictory because it always made sense to me that some troops would stay in Iraq to fulfill OTHER -- quite different -- objectives.

To me it's easy to make a distinction between these objectives.

Here's try to stop Civil War over here. (Something that obviously can't be done, we should not even try).

And there's things like counterterrorism over there.  (Something I think it would be wrong to agandon!)

I still think it's bad policy and bad politics to confuse these issues.

And I also still think Richardson is blowing smoke up the anti-war left's ass on this issue.

Things will get cleared up when there's a debate in front of a national audience (not moveon.org) and Richardson re-calibrates his message to a more sound policy.


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:23:58 PM EST

Re: If all you're asking for (none / 0)

As arranged by MoveOn in advance of this event, it is being broadcast on 34 Air America Radio stations this week, many of them airing it multiple times.  

I doubt that the candidates were unaware their responses would be broadcast to the national AAR audience.


Vote No to the Spending Cap in California (Prop 1A) - Don't Make the Budget Madness Worse
by PeterB on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:49:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Air America audiences (none / 0)

Ok.  Makes sense.

If Richardson sticks to his "not one troop left in Iraq" plan during a nationally televised debate aired during prime time, that'd be great.

The netroots will just go crazy for him.

It's.  Still.  Not.  Going.  To.  Happen.

It's bad policy.

It's bad politics.

here ya' go:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid= -5308196622692748202


by Stewieeeee on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:03:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Protecting American civilians engaged in humanitarian work, training Iraqi troops, conducting counter-terrorism operations, and preventing genocide could require 10,000, 30,000 or even 75,000 American troops to remain in Iraq itself, not just in neighboring countries.

Are you nuts. We, as a nation, entered Iraq and bear some duty to protect those toiling t put it back together. That is more than a feww hundred to protect an embassy, sir.  Yhe continued training of Iraqi soldiers and policeman demands our presence. It is our duty, sir, as an invader and occupier. If we are not wanted, then so be it. Also, the protection of aid workers demands our presence in numbers greater than a few hundred. Hell, we have more than that in Kosovo, Germany, Korea and Japan.  We helped wreck this country, we must be there in some force to help and assist in it's renewal.  Why this complete abandonment, when we have NEVER done such a thing before? I repeat, are you  nuts?  Or, probably closer to the truth are you so bent on further demeaning the Bush administration than total withdrawal satisfies your selfish nature.  I, too, am for a major reduction in force in Iraq, but completely turning our back on this country is gutless, sir, and so are you and yor ilk.  


by jets ya on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:29:45 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Of course we have a moral obligation to put Iraq back together. But US troops are not the way to do that. Even US reconstruction workers are probably not the solution:

1. The people of Iraq are perfectly capable of putting their own country back together and they could really use the jobs. Having Halliburton contractors get paid massive amounts of money and at the same time put young, male Iraqis out of work is crazy. It almost guarantees that there will be an insurgency.

2. The people of Iraq do not want US troops in their country. Polls say they want US troops to leave. We also have an obligation to do what the Iraqis want.

3. We have an obligation to pay for reconstruction, but that is different than occupying the country with US military troops.

4. Continuing to lurch around the china shop smashing things up is not a good solution. The situation in Iraq continues to deteriorate not get better, so it is not clear that the presence of US troops does anyone any good. Abu Graib and US efforts to privatize the economy were clearly destructive of Iraq. It is not clear that other efforts have been or currently are useful.

Also, if you haven't noticed, there is a very active war going on in Iraq -- unlike Kosovo, Germany, Korea, and Japan. The situation is completely unlike those other countries so don't try to equate them.


by RandomNonviolence on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:11:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

"The people of Iraq are perfectly capable of putting their own country back together and they could really use the jobs."

This sounds awfully right wing to me. Pull yourself up by the boot straps after we have screwed you.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:29:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

They sure aren't capable of doing it whilst we're there, because they're fighting to kick us out. It won't all be smiles and ice cream when the US and Britain leave, but there's at least a chance that some progress could actually be made without it becoming an insurgent target.

Besides, saying the Iraqis should do the reconstruction but we should fund it is not rightwing. You're strawmanning.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:35:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The belief (none / 0)

...is that having American troops in Iraq only makes the situation worse, not better. So if our presence there is only causing further harm to the Iraqis, and your concern is the Iraqi people, the only option you then have is total withdrawl.

Sir.


TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:28:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The belief (none / 0)

That belief can certainly be debated. Personally I find it as convincing as saying that global warming will solve itself without government regulations.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:30:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 2)

While we clearly disagree on what the US should be doing in Iraq, I do agree that the candidates owe it to us to be fully honest about what their proposals on Iraq.

If they say that they're for total withdrawal (aside from embassy protection, which being on US soil is not a military presence), then they should really be for this, and not for unstated expections.

If they're for ending the occupation but keeping limited numbers of troops for training and/or counterterrorism, then they should say so.

And if they're for continued occupation and bases, then they should say so too.

They are free to hold and endorse any and all positions, but they owe it to us to be fully open and honest about what they are. And if they're not, then they should be held suspect by us.

I think we're all having two debates here. One, about what US policy should actually be in Iraq, which it's clear we don't all completely agree on. And two, on the need for candidates to be open and honest about their positions on Iraq.

And, actually, the latter is really a pseudo debate, since I think we all pretty much agree that they should all be open and honest about this.

And I'm still unclear as to why non-candidates like Feingold are getting a pass on this since they clearly support a non-zero US military presense in Iraq post-occupation. Perhaps this is yet a third point of debate, then, although I seem to be the only one making it.


by kovie on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:41:50 PM EST

Having Thought about this (none / 0)

for now more than a day, and rereading this last post above, I think that's perfectly Ok.

But I think it's also fair to say that other people will have different definitions of "End the War."

my definition of end the war appears different than others.

but if obama or hillary or edwards wants to say they will end the war, then i'll understand what they mean by that.

and of course it's fair of others who define "ending the war" differently to point out how they don't go far enough in their opinion, but i don't think it would be right to take that definition and start trying to tell the world that obama and edwards and hillary are for continuing the war.

that would be stupid.  and bad for the democratic party.


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Good final post Chris, on this subject.  

I'm tagging kovie's post, because it is pretty close to my own summation, and written well to boot.

Because "end the war" means different things to different people (and that's okay - no one "owns" the definition of "end the war"), I'm glad you are focusing on the level of troops, and the troop MISSIONS in Iraq, post-occupation.

Because candidate can, and should be asked the questions about the missions in Iraq they support..  Then people can support (on Iraq), in principle, who they agree with.

Like Lukasiak, I DO think this is a lesser question.  My own view is that the overriding concern is applying pressure NOW, to reduce the footprint mightily, to a non-occupation level.  Especially since regional engagement is one of the most important things, and we won't have this with the Bush administration anyway.

On the question of what missions should our troops support in Iraq, post-occupation, I don't believe right now that full withdrawal except for the embassy is the way to go.  Incursions by other military powers - Syria, Iran, Turkey - need to be discouraged, which requires some more troop power.  I'm back and forth on missions to take out forthright Al-Queda-related cells (of course only there NOW because we went into Iraq).  

This may all become moot though, as events progress.  On principle troops to discourage other countries, and troops for the embassy.  (Of course, the embassy is HUGE.  A few hundred doesn't cover it for that alone, IF we keep the complete embassy.)


by jc on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Like I said I'm glad we're all having this debate. It's healthy and necessary and vastly more relevant than the nonsense talking points being thrown back and forth in the MSM and talking head shows.

Everyone in this country who cares about the war needs to be engaged in debates on what we should do about our presence there. E.g. maintain the occupation, increase it, diminish it, end it--end if we end it, do we still keep a presence there, and if so, for what ends and to what extent? And so on. It's less important to be "right" or "wrong" than to simply talk about it and hash it out. It's how democracy works.

At the same time, elected and would-be elected politicians have to not only engage in such debates themselves--hopefully with honest experts--but be honest with us about what they believe needs to be done, and what they intend to do if elected or reelected. I don't expect such candor from most politicians, but I still demand it--as should we all. And the degree to which they are honest should be as if not more important than what positions they actually hold on the war (although I suspect that the most honest ones will also be the ones whose positions we most agree with, but I might well be wrong).


by kovie on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:02:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Chris, FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

Richardson was very impressive. Listening to him, vs. the other candidates in the MoveOn townhall completely changed my views of who's the best on Iraq.


by Coral on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:47:21 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Yeah, me too. MoveOn.org did us all great service by holding that forum. Richardson is on my radar now, whereas beforehand only Edwards and Obama were.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Most of the talking heads on TV argue against a total pullout from Iraq, using the argument that chaos will ensue.  Why do we listen to these people?  They have been wrong about this war from the very beginning.  All of their predictions have been totally wrong for over four years.  What do they know that is better than what all of us know deep in our hearts.  We could stay there for 50 years and then pull our our troops and chaos would break out immediately.  These people hate each other and they are going to fight it out as soon as we leave.  So we can leave now and save our military and our government or we can stay and end up on the ash heap of history.  Personally, if George Bush says it would be a mistake to leave, I am inclined to believe that the oppposite is the real truth.


by bonaparte on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:52:06 PM EST

Well, I don't want a total pullout either. (none / 0)

Why even keep that giant embassy (larger then the Vatican city) in the first place?

But anyway, I don't particularly care what happens beyond reducing our troop level to 10,000-20,000 troops who are not engaged in day-to-day police action. Simply being there would give the US an incredible amount of leverage. (Maybe people would argue that's a bad thing, but I'd hate to see Iran take control of the country)

Our current situation is totally untenable, but that doesn't mean we have to pick all or nothing.


by delmoi on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:24:30 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Bill Richardson appears to be the first major candidate to articulate my personal stance on Iraq. It was sweet for a candidate to not only state that he was for full withdrawal, but to also, you know, actually propose total withdrawal in policy terms.

I agree.  I voted for Richardson in MoveOn's poll.


by tex UnFairWitness on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:51:44 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

What about his views on domestic issues? Are you satisfied with them?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:33:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

They're OK.  He's good on medical marijuana and the drug war.

I actually ranked him about 4, I think, on the MyDD straw poll.  He moved way up after this MoveOn debate.

It's early.  Let's see what happens.


by tex UnFairWitness on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for this Post (none / 0)

I'm more open to a small contingent of residual forces remaining in Iraq than Chris is, provided that they're mission really is as limited as Edwards describes, but I certainly respect the "real" full withdrawal position.  Really, my only problem with this whole debate is that I have a sense -- perhaps unfounded -- that some who support "full withdrawal" of the sort articulated by Chris somehow view anything else as "pro-war."  To the extent that that's true, I think that characterization is unfair.

At any rate, i second the idea that this is a debate worth having.  For an issue this important, the progressive movement really needs to havea  a firm idea of what we want to happen.  Unsurprisingly, a little feistiness will be required to arrive at that conclusion.


by HSTruman on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:16:26 PM EST

One thing that seems to get forgotten (none / 0)

is that an end goal, ie withdrawing all troops, most, or somewhere in between, is not a plan. Its an end goal resulting from a plan. And there are a lot of different ways to get to that end goal.

In that regard, and to be totally honest about this Iraq debate, I don't see how Richardson is "ahead" in the debate. Its a lot easier to enunciate a goal than to put forth (and implement) a plan to reach that goal.

So we know what Richardson's goal is. But is his plan to reach that goal the best? I don't think he's articulated that enough to really know.


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:28:57 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

Have people forgotten what happened with the bases in Saudi Arabia, and how they were hated?  Weren't 14(?) of the hijackers on 9/11 from Saudi Arabia?

Also, how many troops will we need to secure the embassy - the size of a small city?  Will the troops be protecting just the buildings themselves with only a skeleton staff, or will it be protecting a fully functional trade and western oil HQ with a possible headcount of over 5,000 personnel?  Then, if we do have a fully operational embassy will our influence really only be contained within the embassy?  What about the mandate and operations of those 4 large bases and the other ~16 smaller ones?

Usually a country will abandon it's embassy if it's fired upon, so what will we do?  Stand and fight, not only inside the walls, but outside?  Sounds like the war will continue to me unless we show meaningful signs of leaving.

Shouldn't we at least be trying to show we are prepared to hand back sovereignty to the Iraqis?  Otherwise, we are no different than the republicans wanting to protect corporate interests instead of our military, continue to be occupiers, grab the oil with our military &/or mercenaries, and all the while be sitting targets for the Islamic world, as well as being the regional poster boy for fundamentalist terrorist recruitment drives.

What happened with the idea of training the Iraqi outside of Iraq?

Also, there's another problem == Iran.  Hillary has said she wants troops there to stop Iran coming in.  Well, how is she going to do that?  How many 'combat' troops is that going to take.  Iran at some point is going to want to have relations with its neighbors, so how long are we going to hang around to stop any chance of an alliance?


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:35:33 PM EST

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

I think it's simplistic to just tie it to the bases. They were crucial, but there's also Wahhabism, the global prominence of the US, the Saudi government's repressive attitude to its own people and obeisance to Washington and arguably the tendency of a small minority of middle-class students in almost every nation and time-period to be attracted to an extremist group - in the 1970s, they might have become Maoist terrorists instead.

Plus there's the question of whether it's reasonable (or even possible) top prevent the emergence of new terrorists. There's an argument that there will always be a certain proportion of unreachables, who you stop with things like decent airport security.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:41:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

US out of iraq (none / 0)

put me down for no residual troops, no embassy, total withdrawal


by arbitropia on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:04:25 PM EST

The Candidate's Positions on Iraq (3.00 / 1)

Matt, I agree with much of what you say here about getting the candidates to be as truthful about their Iraq plans as possible. That is a worthy mission, and I am glad you are on top of it.

Of the top three candidates at the moment, Clinton, Obama and Edwards, my sense is that Edwards has committed to having the fewest number of troops left in Iraq.  Edwards has mentioned two missions (embassy protection and humanitarian mission protection).  Clinton, by contrast, has described six rather serious missions to conduct in Iraq if she is president.  If you want to end the war and minimize US troops in Iraq, Edwards is the better candidate.      

That brings me to Richardson.  What he told MoveOn last night was significant.  As I see it, at a minimum, he made it crystal clear that he is opposed to Clinton's Iraq policy with its six serious, lingering missions.  He is the polar opposite of Clinton. That is big news.  (He will not be Clinton's VP.)  

However, I would be careful not to over-indulge in what Richardson "suggested" last night.  He needs to clarify if he was absolutely ruling out the relatively benign missions of embassy protection and humanitarian worker protection.  I do not think so, but Matt, you can always dream.  I think Edwards and Richardson will end up having the same position. If so, I assuredly welcome Richardson to where Edwards has been for some time.

Furthermore, if you plan on over-indulging in Richardson's comment, you ought to first acknowledge that Richardson's bombshell statement was actually a hypothetical musing that is not, and cannot ever be true.  He said:

If I were President today, I would withdraw American troops by the end of this calendar year. I would have no residual force whatsoever.

Well, Richardson is NOT President today.  At best, he will be President starting in January of 2009.  So technically speaking, Richardson has committed to NOTHING, bupkis, as far as January 2009.  Yes, the commitment is implied, but it is not explicit.  Ask him Matt.  

For what it is worth, it is also interesting to consider Kucinich's position on Iraq.  In particular, Kucinich believes that after a US withdrawal, UN forces will be needed to preserve order in Iraq.  Here is what Kucinich said last night:  

Stop the funding and the occupation, withdraw the troops as you close the bases, create a parallel process which involves the United Nations, which is the only international organization to go to mobilize the (inaudible) to authorize peace-keeping troops, move those troops in, as our troops leave, that we have to prepare to also have the simultaneous return of all US contractors, and as this is happening, you've got the UN moving in their peace-keeping and security force.

We should be providing funding for that United Nations mission, at least 50% of the troops should come from Muslim nations, and should remain there until the Iraq government is capable of having its own security.

Does Richardson rule out UN forces in Iraq after the US withdraws?  I doubt it.  Does he rule out any US forces as part of a UN peacekeeping force?  I would like to hear that.  In fact, what are Obama's, Edwards' and Clinton's position on involving the UN when we withdraw?

As I see it, Richardson has given us a glaring disagreement with Clinton.  That is news.  And he evidently teased you Matt with something that "looks" like your particularized position on Iraq.  But we still need the details.  


by Demo37 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:08:30 PM EST

Re: The Candidate's Positions on Iraq (none / 0)

I don't want to sandbag anyone, but Edwards has never mentioned "protecting humanitarian Americans," it was mentioned by Tracy Russo (who has been with the campaign all of a few days and may have been free-lancing a bit).


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:21:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Issue of Protecting Humanitarian Workers (none / 0)

I think you are correct.  

As for the "humanitarian worker protection" stance coming from a campaign worker, if that is true, then fair enough.  


by Demo37 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:09:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Candidate's Positions on Iraq (none / 0)

Chris wrote the post, not me.


by Matt Stoller on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 02:09:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, My Mistake, But... (none / 0)

Yes, my mistake.  I meant Chris.

But...surveying all the comments (wreckage) today, it does kind of seem like you and Chris are on the same page today on this particular issue.  Chris, Matt, Chris, Matt...  

In this particular post, do you agree with Chris' perspective?  

So...I would offer both of you praise for digging hard into the issue of the candidates' plans for Iraq.  I would also agree with both of you that the Richardson's comments are significant.  But, in order to understand just HOW significant, we need to get the details from Richardson.


by Demo37 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 03:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (3.00 / 1)

Richardson's plan appears to go even further than Kucinich. As much as I want us out of Iraq I also do not want us to create a situation that is military and economic chaos.

Clinton, Obama, Kucinich and others appear to have plans that are close to what Democrats in Congress have proposed which were apparently developed with input from military experts and that seems reasonable. It is my understanding that we have already constructed 14 permanent bases in Iraq that are for military purposes in that country as well as for maintaining stability in the region.

As bad as things already are we do not want to make Iraq the next Darfur nor do we want to make it easy for Iran to take over the entire country.

 


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:43:41 PM EST

Exactly (2.00 / 2)

This new isolationism that suddenly has the front posters in its grip is morally wrong, naive and dangerous. (Yes, the Iraq war was wrong. That is not the issue here.)

I long for the day when our debate on national security is less black and white.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

It's clear now that the problem with your analysis is that you assume that "protecting American civilians doing humanitarian work" means having troops in country.  A far more likely reading is that we would be willing to send emergency troops back into Iraq if US citizens are threatened, which is really standard operating procedure for the US and hardly a "lot of daylight."

I also request that you see my comments on the last thread and ask Richardson the kinds of specific questions you're asking the Edwards campaign.  That seems to be basic fairness.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:19:59 AM EST

Getting the Top 4 All Wrong (none / 0)

I hijacked my room mates laptop and now it's time to let the ballsy Democrat in the pad do the talking.

I've read this blog and it is right on most of the time.  However, the recent posts about the Top 4 Democrats and their positions on Iraq have got the Top 4 all wrong.  John McCain may be certifiably drunk on Iraq spin but someone needs to provide the "straight talk."  When discussing Iraq I think it's crucial to look past the issue itself and look at how the candidates are presenting themselves.  It says a lot about what they might do in hypothetical developments in Iraq.

There is a HUGE difference between Edwards' position and Clinton's position and their motives.  Clinton want's to look like a "hawk" while still winning the nomination.  That's it.  Edwards wants to END THE WAR AND SAVE LIVES!  I'm a Gore hold out (he's losing weight you know)and I disagree with my roomie on Edwards but I'll back him up on this one.  Edwards and Richardson (I'm willing to bet) are probably identical when it comes to the embassy thing.  Richardson will support some kind military at the embassy otherwise there can't be an embassy.  It's kind of silly, scratch that, it's very silly to oppose soldiers at an embassy.  As far as humanitarian aide goes, come on.  Edwards supports military to guard those who are helping people, people who will (and already do) need help.  How is that out of line with progressive values.  And if you are about to say because it puts the troops in harms way, well there are ways it can be done that can make it more acceptable.  Of course, if American soldiers began being frequently killed while guarding aide workers I bet Edwards would modify his position.  Richardson has also recently mentioned Afghanistan a lot.  If he is going to send troops to Afghanistan how can you knock Edwards for backing aide workers and a force to stop Genocide.  Come on, get off of it.  I don't think this happens very often but I think that this is simply a case of a couple big names at major blogs getting positions confused and going off on a tangent.  These things need to be debated but I think we can all agree that Edwards, Obama, and Richardson all want to save Iraqi lives without endangering American soldiers.  Clinton, honestly, is only concerned with looking like a "hawk".  That is the type of woman Bill thinks can be elected, that is the type of woman she will be.  

Also, if Edwards wants to cap the troops at 100,000 and then withdraw 40-50,000 immediately, with all of them being out in a calendar year then you can bet that he will not allow any number close to 75,000 to be there.  If these missions require anywhere near that much he would scale them back.  I think that saying that doing the things Edwards mentioned would require 50 - 75,000 troops is a little off base.  

Don't forget, Edwards has led the Iraq debate post 05. He was the only one of the major candidates to back the Kerry-Feingold amendments in 2006 (Obama and Clinton both voted no).  He also was the only one of the big 3 to call for cutting off funding for the surge.  From "McCain doctrine" to his idea of sending back the same clean bill to the President over and over and force him to take the blame (which has already been picked up by Clinton) Edwards is also the best candidate when it comes to communicating the progressive position on the war.  Did I already mention that it should also count that he told Dems to ignore Lieberman and he jabbed at Obama for his stupid "chicken" comment?  Because it should.  Did I mention that he's the most electable Democrat in the race? Because he is.  One last thing to make my roomie proud.

ANYBODY WHO SAYS THAT EDWARDS ONLY HAS COURAGE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A SEAT TO PROTECT IS SMOKING CRACK!  OBAMA AND HILLARY HAVE 2 OF THE SAFEST SEATS IN CONGRESS.  BOTH ARE HUGE NAMES IN SOLIDLY BLUE STATES.  HOPEFULLY BY 2012 A MIRACLE WILL HAPPEN AND WE'LL BE ABLE TO TAKE OUT HILLARY IN A PRIMARY BUT THAT'S THE ONLY WAY EITHER OF THEM IS GOING TO LOSE THEIR SEATS.  As for Richardson I'm pretty sure he is term limited and he doesn't really have anywhere to go but up.

Also, remember that Richardson is probably not perfect on Iraq.  Like Warner (pathetic position - moderately for the war, then claimed that it didn't matter whether the invasion was right or wrong but he would see if his position could last the primaries, then for withdrawal without a timeline, then God knows what) Vilsack(moderately for it and not going after those who voted for it until he ran when he did a total 180), Rendell(for the war at through at least 05'), Sebelius (was for it, now ?), Napolitano (who is pro-surge even)and Bayh(for it until recently) and all the other DLC / Third Way governors/ former governors he was most likely moderately for the war, until he decided to run, when he was honest about how he really felt (which knowing his foreign policy background was against the war).  Until before he announced he was being very careful about how he would talk about the war.  He always talked about it in terms of "strategy" or "policy", never mentioning the moral aspect of it.  Of course his background is in strategy and it was a huge strategical mistake but this guy knows what he is doing.  He did the same thing on the war that he did on trade.

He did not vote for the war because he could not have but because of his credentials in foreign policy he should have been vocal against the war.  He was not.  Edwards made a huge mistake by believing the Clinton Administration officials that Bob Shrum told him to listen to regarding WMD and Iraq.  It was a huge mistake and he has paid for it in spades.  If he would have voted against it the candidacy of Barack Obama not have it's strongest point.  Richardson should aslso be up front about his inital position on the war.  I doubt he was ever a raging supporter but I remember an reading an article that talked about Richardson, Vilsack, and Bayh all warning fellow Dems not to "be too hard" on those who were still supporting the war.  Richardson did pull for Lamont early though so he deserves credit for that.

The bigger issues with Richardson is how he views confrontation with Republicans.  Like Obama and Clinton he has thrown fellow Democrats under the bus with a straw man argument when he is faced with GOP spin.  Obama has actually done it a lot. The Kos "sistah souljah" moment,the recent "chicken" episode, numerous exceprts from his book we're he hyper-generalizes about the worst traits of some Democrats so he can look like Mr."Consensus", and the "some in my party don't want to trade" BS in the Chicago Tribune op-ed that was a wink-wink nod-nod to K street.  You know the one where, as David Sirota pointed out, he let all the right people know that he wished he could have voted for CAFTA.  Sorry Barack, I have three words for you "Where's the Beef?"  Why don't you take your "personality based", fluffy, ultra risk - averse Axelrodian campaign, flush it down the toilet, and return yourself to regular form.  I'm talking about the Barack Obama who gave the amazing speeches in 2002 (the one where he pretty much prophecies what will happen in Iraq) and 2004 (the DNC classic), not the one who foolishly challenged, and lost to, a progressive congressman for no reason other than ambition.  He endorses you now but for the love of god, why did you challenge Bobby Rush?  I'm afraid that we are seeing the audacity of Barack Obama, not the audacity of hope.  

Hillary Clinton's candidacy is one giant attempt to throw the party under a bud.  The worst example is when she said that some in her party where running to tell people that the war on terror was not that serious but that is not her.  She is desperate to shed her 1994 image it's hilarous.  Everytime she said "When I'm president at the MoveOn.org town hall I almost vomitted. Enough of the Queen of the DLC.  Next.

Edwards is the only Dem(except for Gore) who hasn't done this "throw the party under a bus thing" at least in the recent past  at least to my knowledge.

That brings us to governor Richardson.  Notice how he lists "bipartisanship" as an "issue" on his website.  Bipartisanship is a good thing when it is about bringing those in both parties together to do what is best for the american people on isssues like minimum wage, stem cells, global warming, etc.  But as we all know, far too often Third Wayers like Richardson use "bipartisanship" as cover to look out for their self interests only while screwing the future interests of the progressive movement, the party, and the country.  Richardson does this far too often on the issue of taxes.  At the AFSCME forum he even said (paraphrasing)"I won't eliminate the Bush tax cuts for the rich even though they are fiscally irresponsible because then other Americans are going to think "Am I next" and we might be called "tax and spend Democrats" by the GOP".  When are we going to learn that running never works and that we have to engage the Republicans on every issue, especially issues like taxes, reproductive rights, and national security, where if we just correctly and forcefully articulate our position the American people agree with us.  George Lakoff nails how Democrats should talk about taxes.  It would help if we cut wasteful defense spending and NASA BS as well as ridiculous earmarks but Clintonian defecit obsessed economic policies just hurt the party's identity and re-enforce the GOP spin on taxes.  Richardson even went so far as to say at house parties, "I'M NOT A TYPICAL DEMOCRAT.  I DON'T THINK THAT RAISING TAXES IS THE ANSWER TO EVERYTHING." If that doesn't wake you up I don't know what will.  This is not just about taxes, this is about how he would govern.  Of course he's going to be all gung-ho on leaving Iraq right now (if you think that he won't guard the embassy with any form of miliary then you need to lay off the Kool Aid) but if he wins he his past has indicated that he will staff the White House with DLC / Third Way elites who will tell him that he never needs the base again.  

One last thing about Richardson.  He has great qualifications and he's an engaging speaker (sometimes) but he has not handled the allegations against him very well.  He issued a non-denial denial.  He said that he had made personal mistakes or something to that effect.  Of course non of us freaking care but another scandal would devastate the party on those damn "values" issues.  I'm not saying he has done anything wrong.  I am saying that by responding in the way he did he made the DC media elite think that he was paving the way for an apology in case something concrete came out in the future.  Maybe he just meant to say that he was not perfect, none of us are, but he should not have addressed the whole thing without being clear.  And he knows this, which is why this just enforces the opinion that there is something to the allegtions.  We all hate what the GOP did to President Clinton, and we all think that this stuff shouldn't matter half as much as it does.  Richardson talks about "The New Realism".  He sells himself as a pragmatist.  Well here's some realism for you.  His position on Iraq is important for the sake of the debate but his candidacy is virtually moot.  Why you ask?  Between his own Lieutenant Governors charges of what the media will call "groping" and his B.S about being a professional baseball player and the atheletes / celebrities who told every newspaper in New Mexico that Richardson promised to get them out of trouble if they ever got in any, to the Los Alamos scandal that happened during his tenure as Energy Secretary that he will get hammered for the guy cannot win.  i know it sucks, it's not fair but it is reality.  He has far too much baggage.  And I don't mean a big house or a middle name that some people will trip out about, I mean real, or at least percieved to be real baggage.  In politics perception is reality and the media's perception of Richardson is that he is a well-qualified but brash womanizer.  Even if he had an affair it doesn;t make him a womanizer but it is too much to overcome.  The baseball, Los Alamos, all of it. He says he was vetted for VP and he was but he never says why he wasn't chosen. Maybe that's why he runs from GOp spin, because he mistakes policy issues for personal issues.  On policy issues progressives can fight the GOP but on personal issues Richardson is best of running.      


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:30:03 AM EST

Re: Getting the Top 4 All Wrong (none / 0)

Wow dude, that was diary worthy. Interesting critique of Richardson I haven't heard before. I didn't even realize that he used third way talking points like that.


by JewishJake on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 02:14:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson & American Values (none / 0)

Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) is showing himself to be the only candidate able to get things done that are consistent with American values.

Gov. Richardson has signed into law a bill that legalizes medical marijuana.

Asked by the Associated Press about the political risk involved, Richardson replied "So what if it's risky? It's the right thing to do...This is for medicinal purpose, for ... people that are suffering. My God, let's be reasonable."
http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/s trategist/2007/04/medical_marijuana_refo rms_gain.php

The Democratic Strategist also reported:

It's not likely that Richardson's presidential campaign will suffer as a result. Opinion polls taken in the 21st century indicate that between 70 and 80 percent of the public supports protecting medical marijuana users from arrest.

Richardson is the candidate advocating getting US troops out of Iraq by 2007.
http://therichardsonsolution.typepad.com /

The news is out that Richardson has negotiated a deal with the North Koreans to dismantle the reactor and "to allow nuclear inspectors into the country." http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.ht m??g=e42bcb7d-a47c-45f3-831b-aa3b6e4f01f 3&f=00&fg=copy

Richardson, as a presidential candidate, has already accomplished more than what the Bush administration and the Congress have accomplished that are consistent with American values as expressed by Thomas Jefferson:

The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, are the first and only legitimate object of good government.


by Hempy on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 03:48:18 AM EST

Questions for Chris: (none / 0)

Do you or don't you think that we have a responsibility to prevent genocide in a country that we unlawfully invaded? If not, do you think that America generally should try to prevent genocides from happening in the world? If not, was Clinton wrong to send troops to former Yugoslavia? And why are American lives more worth than foreigners lives?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 04:14:55 AM EST

The truth about Richardson (none / 0)

After doing little more than 3 minutes research on Richardson I found out that I was right.  He supported the war from the get go.  There is a transcript of an interview that he did with Paula Zahn on CNN where he uses the very same foreign policy experience that everyone likes him for to give Bush cover to invade Irag.  If there is any doubt, when HE GAVE THE KEYNOTE ADDRESS TO THE 2003 DLC Convention he was introduced as a proud SUPPORTER OF THE WAR IN IRAQ AND NAFTA (the one two punch favored by all the triangulating hacks trying to castrate the party) by the king of right wing "Democrats" Will Marshall.  

Richardson goes on to brag about being the FIRST DLC GOVERNOR (and by the way if you say that Edwards was in the DLC you are spreading a myth, he never joined the DLC although he was courted heavily, Ezra Klein reports on this in his article titled Raising the Bar that can be found on The American Prospect Online),  

Because I would never advise anybody to go to the DLC website you can go to Irregular Times and "The Dark Side of Bill Richardson".  How did I find this?  I typed "Bill Richardson Paula Zahn" (looking for a clip of his pro-war days) into a Google search.  This is going to come out sooner or later and he is going to lose any credibility.  If you haven't heard him him say as recently as a month ago "I'm not like every other Democrat, I don't think that raising taxes is the answer to everything." then you have an excuse but the point is that from...

- IRAQ (before he decided to run for president(

  • NAFTA / TRADE
  • ECONOMIC ISSUES / TAXES (his entire speech to the DLC is, of course, a big wet kiss to big business, he even margianalizes the restoration of collective bargaining that he brags about now)
  • HEATH CARE (he wasn't for Universal Health Care until after the Nevada forum when he got nailed for basically saying "I'm a new candidate" over and over.  I thought "experience" was his strong suit.  The guy was in congress for a long time.  The truth is that he had to come up for a way that he could pretend to be for universal health care (he is still iffy on the issue) without pissing off his big business buddies
  • BIPARTISANSHIP (AKA one of the "issues" that he lists on his website that is just cover for his eventual selling out.

Richardson is a DLCer in progressive clothing.  In fact, during his speech he repeatedly says "progressive values" and then lists those values as DLC policies.

The Hotline recently mentioned that Richardson's financial strategy is based in part on hitting up Clinton donors.  Yes, the same Clinton donors who are in love with the DLC.  You heard it here folks, zebras don't change their stripes and neither does Bill Richardson.  There is even a quote from Richardson where he descrbes talking to Clinton donors and says "I know you're supporting Senator Clinton but I can be your second choice."

Part of my point is that Edwards has paid a heavy political price for his support of the war and his more moderate days (at least he was always an economic populist and always against NAFTA).  Not to mention that Edwards has apologized MANY times.  SUPPORTING THE WAR IS SUPPORTING THE WAR! At least Edwards had to be half way tricked into it by former Clinton Administration officials who said Saddam had WMD (I wonder if Richardson was one of them?) though Edwards still should have voted no.  Richardson was Mr. Foreign Policy and he didn't even half to be budged to back the war.  IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE YOUR HOMEWORK ON RICHARDSON STOP ACTING LIKE HE IS THE SAVIOR OF THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT.  When you read thespeech you will see that Richardson thinks that progressie = DLC, literally.

Honestly, this is almost as bad as Jerome Armstrong and Markos Moulitsas backing Mark Warner when he had a laughable position on Iraq (until he realized that he had to change it) and he repeatedly railed against the very economic populism that is at the heart of our party and helped us win in 2006.  What is the deal with falling in love with DLC governors?  Does the netroots want to be co-opted?  I hope not.


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 06:19:12 AM EST

This is not correct (none / 0)

No, this is not correct. First, Richardson was a governor and diplomat.  This is in fact a valid parallel between the highly capable Mark Warner, who was a very good governor of Virginia and would have been a sound candidate.  Executive experience goes well with white house- in fact, of the last 5 presidents,  Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43/44 - 100% of them have been culled from the rank and file of the governorship. Historically, Governors are 12% more likely to  succeed to the presidency outnumbering those whose political occupation is the senate in any given election year.  However, recently history indicates that the current American electorate - at lest for the last 28 years, has voted against nearly every senate candidate, and for the governor. In fact, the movement we are a part of was more or less founded by a governor, was it not?

Introductions and those that others say about him, don't count towards his position stance and official record. Introducing them here to buttress your argument against Richardson is suspect.

I have done my homework on Richardson and have found him to be extremely capable. His position on NAFTA is no mistake, he lives in the southwest.


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:05:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not correct (none / 0)

You clearly have not done your homework.  He may be capable but that doesn't mean that he is the best person for the job.  

You say, "no this is not correct" but name one thing I said that is factually inacurrate. Ifim  you are talking about Warner's position on Iraq then look up the transcript of him on ABC's This Week.  He clearly says that he does not want to talk about whether the invasion was right or ( wrong.  When Stephanopolopolapalapalapaplatapus
asks him if he is going to keep that position through the primaries he says something like "We'll see if we can".  Other than that I can't think of anything I didn't say that isn't verifiable by going to the link that I told you to follow.  Find any story about Warner's fundraisers for big business donors and you'll read about him rail against the dreaded "populism".

I've had the misfortune of reading your posts before and even before this you were considered by all 5 of the voices inside my head as the biggest varmint (that ones for Willard Romney) in the blogoshphere.  

If you are trying to say that everyone in the southwest loves NAFTA you are on an unprecedented amount of crack.  Richardson changed his position on the issue because even the DLC admits that globalization isn't the feel good movie of the summer that they all said it would be.  Now Richardson is for the very labor and environmental standards that are the trademarks of the very "fair trade" that Richardson and the DLC used to rail against as not being pro-growth.  NAFTA hurts working people all over the world.  It's not like it's a regional issue.

By the way Richardson is capable when it comes to understanding foreign policy.  Executing it is a different matter.  His history says that he will do whatever he feels is politically advantageous.  He thought it was smart to back the war in 2002.  Now he knows if he is to rise above 4 percent he must become THE anti-war candidate.  But if he were to be elected his understanding of the issues won;t stop him from doing whatever he thinks he needs to do to be re-elected.  How do I know this, because he is EXTREMELY SCARED OF BEING CRITICISED.  How do I know this?

Look at what he said at the AFSCME forum about Bush's tax cuts for the rich.  He knows that they are fiscally irresponsible, he says so, buthe is afraid of how he would look if he wanted to repeal them.  So even Mr. DLC style defecit obsession won't do what is needed to balance the budget if he thinks that he could get hit for it.  Absolutely spinelss for unmerous different reasons.  It's not just this it's what he says in his DLC SPEECH.  He says...

"In New Mexico they can't say that we are anti-business, because we're not!"

That is the stupidest logic I have ever heard in my life.  That's like saying,

"They can't say that we're not for victory in Iraq because we back the surge 100 percent!

Only when Richardson absolutely must for political gain (like with Iraq) is he willing to get over his massive fear of what Republicans might say.

What kind of name is "HeyAnita" anyway.  It's like you want everyone to think that it's an inside joke so that maybe we will think thatif you someoen making inside jokes must have friends.  But if you have friends then they are just like you a freaking NAFTA loving varmint.

I don't know why I even refut your crap.  You will just say "Nu-uh, not true" or "I know you are but what am I?"  You know what HeyAnita, I know what you are.  It starts with a "V" and ends in an "armint".  Your're a mother freaking "HeyWillardMittRomney" Varmint.


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:35:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not correct (none / 0)

Please don't call fellow MyDDers "varmints". It's possible to disagree with people without resorting to name-calling.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 09:43:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Regarding "Varmints" (none / 0)

In case you have been under a rock recently I repeatedly linked my use of the word "varmint" to Mitt Romney (Willard Mitt Romney is his full name) who was all over the news because he tried to act like tough guy hunter when he later admitted that he had only shot rabitts and other "varmints".  I thought it was a hilarious episode, which is why I overdid the whole "varmint" thing.  Honestly, if I was going) to call HeyAnita a name (and trutst me I want to) it would be something a million times worse than "varmint"


She just can't win.
by Progressive Populist 4 Edwards on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:21:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Regarding "Varmints" (none / 0)

Yes, name calling is sooooo mature.  If you can't win a debate, just call your opponent names.


Senator Al Franken. Have I died and gone to heaven? Not yet. We're still in Purgatory.
by NM Ward Chair on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:49:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not correct (none / 0)

Actually, Richardson was a Congressman first, a very progressive Congressman.  He represented a very progressive district, NM03.  Now that he is Governor of the whole state, including the quite conservative south, he has a wider variety of people to please, and he's done it quite well.  He has a knack for giving a wide variety of people what they really want without totally alienating the others.  You can see that as a sign of ideological impurity if you want.  I think it points to the fact that Richardson is a pragmatic incrementalist.  He recognizes that nobody can get everything s/he wants, and he's willing to give some ground to take what he can.  Sometimes I get pissed off at him, but he's a political genius.


Senator Al Franken. Have I died and gone to heaven? Not yet. We're still in Purgatory.
by NM Ward Chair on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trying To Tie This All Together... (none / 0)

The current Army of Ocupation cannot protect the Green Zone from being attacked.  400 embassy guards will only be 400 designated targets.  An embassy will be nearly indefensible. The best you can do is park it out in the desert, recalling that the range of a Katyusha or Grad rocket is fairly impressive, and if you defend a perimeter that puts the embassy out of range of the perimeter, the people who do not like you get to shoot at the perimeter defenses.  By the way, this is a very large perimeter.

It may well not be possible to manage our diplomatic relations via feet on the ground in Iraq.

We should leave, completely, promptly.

George Phillies
   http://www.phillies2008.com


by phillies on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 10:53:38 AM EST

Democrats are enjoying an advantage (none / 0)

that some of them want to piss away:

Iraq is a Republican war that has been repudiated by the voters. If some Dem keeps troops in Iraq for whatever seemingly laudable purpose, Iraq will gradually become a bipartisan war and people will simply become further disconnected from a government that refuses to do what they consider the obvious.

Do the people elaborating policy epicycles really want that?


Can It Happen Here?
by janinsanfran on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:47:52 AM EST


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