Richardson: "I Would Have No Residual Force Whatsoever"

I am currently listening to the entire MoveOn.org forum on Iraq. Right now, I am about halfway through Clinton's segment. So far, in the entire forum, no line struck me more than Bill Richardson's "I would have no residual force whatsoever" in his opening statement (which he repeated in his response to question #1). With perfect clarity, that is exactly the line I have been looking for from Democratic candidates for President. It is a profound, substantive difference than what we have heard from, for example, Hillary Clinton, when she states that if she is President there will be a "remaining military as well as political mission" in Iraq. This is, in the final analysis, a difference between ending the war in Iraq, and simply decreasing the size of the war Iraq.

What really makes me happy about this statement is that it came from Bill Richardson. This is a man who, earlier today, brokered a deal with North Korea to allow weapons inspectors back into the country, and who, three months ago, brokered cease-fire deal in Darfur. To use the favorite term of neoliberal hawks, no one alive today is more "serious' about foreign policy than Bill Richardson. And yet, here he is, running for President of the Unites States, and stating that the United States should have no residual force in Iraq whatsoever. Doesn't he know that "serious" people aren't supposed to say things like this?

This changes the debate on Iraq. For months, progressives have tried to make a big deal out of Clinton's refusal to apologize for her Iraq war vote. At the same time, many candidates, not just Clinton, have claimed they are in favor of ending the war in Iraq, while simultaneously maintaining an American military presence in the country. This has been extremely problematic, since as long as the Iraq debate in the Democratic primary is still framed about the AUMF in 2002, and as long as "ending the war" in the Democratic primary means continuing it, there is ultimately no way to articulate a meaningful difference between the Democratic candidates on the future of American involvement in Iraq. Now, however, there is a clear difference, and it is one we must press.

There are Democratic candidates who will entirely end American military involvement in the war in Iraq, like Bill Richardson, and there are Democratic candidates who simply want to reduce, but not end, American military involvement in the war in Iraq, like Hillary Clinton. That is the direction the debate over Iraq should and must take during the Democratic primary season if the party is going to make an informed choice about its next leader. There are candidates who will end the war, and there are candidates who will decrease its size but not end it. During the primary season, the only candidates who I will end up supporting when we start closing in on the primaries fall into the former camp. While I am sure that this makes me a naive, dirty fucking hippie, I guess it makes Bill Richardson one too. In fact, I am going to give $25 to his campaign for making this statement, and be on the lookout for Richardson 2008 drum circles in my neighborhood. Mind you, I'll keep voting for Edwards in straw polls for now, but this makes me take a long look a Bill Richardson.

It is essential that this become the new way Iraq is framed in the Democratic primaries, and that we determine which camp each candidate fits into. Bickering over how people voted five years ago, or even how they feel about their votes five years ago, is pretty pathetic when compared to the difference between ending the war and simply reducing it in size. I will take a one-time war supporter who wants to end it, over a long-term war opponent who simply wants to reduce it in size. Ideally, I'd like to have both, (cough, Feingold, cough), but I will take what I can get.

This is a potentially game-changing statement, as long as it means what I think it means. I hope Richardson's line is repeated ad naseum online for the foreseeable future. Which camp, the enders or the reducers, is each candidate in?



Display:


Excellent Frame - Replacement for the misleading (none / 0)

position of being for/against withdrawing 'combat' troops.  That set-up allows folks to give the appearance of being against the occupation without actually having a position.  (After all, combat troops to protect Iraqi trainers don't have to be considered combat troops if you don't want them to be...)


by PeterB on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:01:46 AM EST

Afterwards (none / 0)

Chris,
What do you think happens to Iraqis if US troops completely pull out of the region?
Is Richardson advocating complete pullout of Iraq with a large force remaining in the Middle East? Or is he advocating complete pullout of the region entirely?
by adamterando on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:02:04 AM EST

Re: Afterwards (3.00 / 2)

I have no idea, but I doubt he seeks a total withdrawal of America from the region. Right now, total withdrawal from Iraq is all I am interested in anyway. And who knows--maybe he didn't mean that, and maybe he means to just withdraw "combat" troops as other candidates have said. But this is a difference we need to push.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:09:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill Richardson's New Realism Plan for Iraq (3.00 / 2)

You can learn more about Governor Richardson's 7 Point plan for Iraq here or: http://www.richardsonforpresident.com/ir aq

Adam and Chris, I think #2, on the list, is pertinent your question:

2. No Residual Forces Left Behind: We must remove ALL of our troops. There should be no residual US forces left in Iraq. Most Iraqis, and most others in the region, believe that we are there for their oil, and this perception is exploited by both Al Qaeda and anti-American Shia groups. By announcing that we intend to remove all troops, we would deprive them of this propaganda tool.


Joaquin H. Guerra Internet Outreach Richardson for President http://richardsonforpresident.com/blog
by Joaquin H Guerra on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Richardson's New Realism Plan for Iraq (3.00 / 3)

This has been quite a week for Governor Richardson.  Reminds us all what grown-ups are capable of.  


by Winston Smith on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:26:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

John Edwards also (3.00 / 3)

moves them out of Iraq.

"End the War: Require a complete withdrawal of combat troops in Iraq in about a year without leaving behind any permanent U.S. military bases in Iraq."

He would leave some troops in the region, but not in Iraq.

"Edwards believes that sufficient forces should remain in the region, working in concert with the international community, to ensure that instability in Iraq does not spillover and create a regional war, a terrorist haven, or spark a genocide."

http://www.johnedwards.com/about/issues/ iraq/

He and Richardson may have similar views on that.


by littafi on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:34:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards also (none / 0)

Not quite the same. "All combat troops" not necessarily the same as "all troops".


by The Cunctator on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards also (none / 0)

And it seems likely if a MyDD front pager posed the question of when any residual forces would be gone, he (is there a she?) would get an answer.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:02:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Afterwards (none / 0)

Just to be clear, you're not opposed to some forces remaining in the region (but not in Iraq) then?  Intuitively it makes sense to me that we'll need to leave some combat-ready troops in the region to preclude whatever happens in Iraq from spilling over into a regional war, but I haven't spent a great deal of time thinking about how that might work.  

Anyway, interesting post.  I really need to study this more to figure out what I even think is the best policy goal.  :)


by HSTruman on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:29:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Afterwards (none / 0)

Iraqis are free to determine their own fate if US troops pull out. In the worst case scenario, do you think it will be worst than the genocide and brutality currently occurring in Darfur, the politically acceptable civil war to ignore?

As horrible as the aftermath may be, our prolonged occupation only makes the eventual aftermath worse.

America was built on a belief in freedom and self determination. Now we must have faith in that belief.


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:32:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

John Edwards: (3.00 / 1)

"complete withdrawal of combat troops in Iraq in about a year without leaving behind any permanent U.S. military bases in Iraq."

http://www.johnedwards.com/about/issues/ iraq/


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:04:01 AM EST

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 1)

That's pretty close, but does it mean extending the "training" and "counter-terrorism" missions Clinton has advocated? We need to know.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:06:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

Yeah, I just realized what you meant after I posted.  He does intend to keep forces over the horizon, so the answer is probably yes, to an extent.  But we do those things all over the world right now, with countries like Georgia.  I'm not exactly sure where the line should be drawn, either from your or my own perspective.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:10:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 3)

I could tolerate withdrawing them from Iraq and keeping them in a nearby country. And I don't think the difference is unclear. Either troops are in a given country, or they are not in a given country. That is a pretty clear line to draw.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:12:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 2)

That's not what I meant.  If we keep them in Qatar and Kuwait and other countries, and continue training the Iraqis and providing assistance, is that okay?

"Edwards also believes the United States must intensify its efforts to train the Iraqi security forces.

Edwards believes that sufficient forces should remain in the region, working in concert with the international community, to ensure that instability in Iraq does not spillover and create a regional war, a terrorist haven, or spark a genocide."

Frankly, that's alright with me, so long as he has already stated that there must be a "complete withdrawal of combat troops" and there will be no permanent bases, which he has.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:21:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

I guess I should clarify, I would like a clearer statement that the last man would be pulled out, but considering all the issues, Edwards is the closest to me, and Richardson is one of the farthest.  I'm willing to accept 80% on this from Edwards.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:57:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

(ahem)


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:21:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 1)

They are not in the region to train Iraqi troops.  The training happens in the year as we pull out.

They stay in the region to make sure there is no genocide and to prevent spill over into other countries.  


by littafi on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:39:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 1)

They stay in the region because we have had troops in the region for decades.  We do have allies in the region who allow it... I don't see the US ever leaving completely as long as we use a significant amount of Oil and give assistance to Israel.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

Chris, I posted this upthread.

John Edwards wants them in the region for these reasons.

"Edwards believes that sufficient forces should remain in the region, working in concert with the international community, to ensure that instability in Iraq does not spillover and create a regional war, a terrorist haven, or spark a genocide."

http://www.johnedwards.com/about/issues/ iraq/

Very different from Hilary Clinton's aims.


by littafi on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:37:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 1)

Like others who posted above, I am not sure whether Edwards would remove every last American soldier, as Richardson would, or just all combat soldiers.  To me, what is clear though is that both the position of both Edwards and Richardson is very different from Clinton's position, which is that she would leave combat soldiers in Iraq to fight.  I dont have the link to the NYT article on her statement on this computer, but I will add a link where she makes that clear this evening.

I will say Chris, IMHO, it is a little unfair to say that if Edwards, or anyone, only wants to leave troops there as trainers that this is only a "reduction" of the Iraq War from our point of view.  We have trainers around the world, including places where there is ongoing fighting, but that does not mean that we are fighting those wars ourselves.


Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So ask him. (none / 0)

Just ask him ... there's a phone number to leave an audio message if email is too hard.

I think that OneAmerica at gmail.com still works, but really, if a front pager from MyDD were to call the press secretary, I am sure that a direct response could be sorted out sometime in the near term future. Maybe a couple of days, but a lot quicker than trying to read tea leaves to get an answer.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Have you asked? (none / 0)

I'd suggest a subject line of:

"Iraq question from MyDD front pager"


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 1)

This really doesn't address what will remain in Iraq.  I checked the website and the transcript from tonight's MoveOn meeting.  There's just no mention of how many troops would stay, and what we'd be doing in Iraq.  No permanent bases doesn't mean we're not there.  

Just an example, if combat troops are going to stay in Iraq as force protection for trainers or counter-insurgency folks, does that mean they are not considered "combat" and not required to be withdrawn?  Conceivably, all "combat" forces could be withdrawn and we still have many tens of thousands of our military still there.  

It's really unclear what Edwards means.  I like him in a lot of respects, but all candidates, including him, need to be put on the spot about what that remaining mission in Iraq will be, the timeframe, forces required, additional financial commitment.  


by PeterB on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:14:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

Excatafuckingmundo.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:19:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 2)

Chris, I do not think you are reading the Edwards Plan correctly, although I see the ambiguities in the statement in the Plan that could lead to a contrary reading.

There is no indication that troops would stay in Iraq, even for training after redepployment.  

Some folks focus on the term "combat troops" to make that argument.  Unlike Obama or Clinton, though, Edwards has not said he would leave troops in Iraq after full redeployment.  

Chris, you have a big megaphone and some status.  Why don't you ask the Edwards camapaign?  

People here speculate as to what the Edwards Plan means.  Why not get an answer to the question?  

You likely will get an answer.  The Edwards campaign is very netroots friendly.  They have a built in incentive to talk to you.  Let's find out what it means so we can debate realities and not the spin some other candidate's supporter wants to put on the Plan.

Can you ask for all of us?


by littafi on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So, Chris, have you asked him yet? nt. (none / 0)


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (3.00 / 2)

I'm worried that Iraq's "trainers" will become the equivalent of the Vietnam "advisors". We must learn from past war time elections (in '64 - LBJ was the peace candidate, in '68 Nixon had a secret plan for peace, and in '72 peace was at hand) and make sure our candidates do not equivocate or parse on this issue. While I believe many of our candidates want to end this war, we must press them now, in the primaries, before we enter the general election and must choose the lesser of two evils.


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

Even for Richardson, I doubt that "all troops" really means "all troops".

For example, I doubt if Richardson plans on leaving the US Embassey unprotected by American troops.  

I think that Edwards statement is a sufficient indication of his intentions (end US involvement in Iraq in a year) while maintaining sufficient flexibility should circumstances warrant.  There is an underlying assumption that there will be some form of effective Iraqi military structure that may well require training and or logistical support for a while after we leave.   I don't have a problem with that as long as I'm confident that the intent of a presidential candidate is to withdrawal completely from Iraq (i.e. if the temporary presence of US logistical support will prevent the collapse of the Iraqi military -- and prevent Iraq from descending into chaos as a result -- during the transition period, I can live with it.)


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:02:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

Do we HAVE an Embassy in Iraq anymore?


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:51:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Embassy (none / 0)

There is a huge embassy in Iraq. The plan was for Iraq to be the US base of military operations in the Middle East.


by jayackroyd on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Embassy (none / 0)

Jay's right. Think Soviet Embassy in Berlin and multiply it by 4.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:53:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

Embassy would be sovereign territory of U.S.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:42:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Edwards: (none / 0)

Precisely. The marines guarding an embassy are never counted as troops on foreign soil, just as we never counted Russian soldiers guarding the Russian embassy in Washington as Russian troops on US soil.

No permanent bases means no permanent forces. Richardson is to be commended for stated it so clearly, and I hope that everyone who agrees with that position does states it that clearly, to make the strongest possible contrast with Hillary ...

... but when the question was posed, when Edwards first described his policy, whether he meant that there would be no permanent bases, he answered, no permanent bases.

Go back and listen to his argument, which is that politically, the continued presence of US forces is allowing those presently protected by those US forces to put off the hard task of reaching a political settlement. That's been his argument since last year ... there's nothing new about it, because nothing has changed in that fundamental political equation.

So just fracking ask him. Does he mean that within a definite period of time there will be no residual forces whatsoever? I don't know whether he would be able to commit to no residual forces within one year, or no residual forces in two, but it sure as heck won't be a Clintonian "aim" to accomplish "by the end of her second term".

It will definitely be with no residual forces left within some definite period of time. That's part of being clear to the Iraqi's that "we mean to go", which is Edwards central argument.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:01:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice (3.00 / 3)

I wish Richardson could get some traction.  If this were a resume contest, he'd be the next President, without question.  And his leadership on this issue is important.  Is there a way we can toss the field into a blender and poor out a candidate smoothie that combines the best of all of them (and leaves out some of the questionable bits).


by libdevil on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:07:06 AM EST

Re: Nice (none / 0)

Its early.  Bill's gotta start raising money to be a contender though.  


by Winston Smith on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice (none / 0)

He has a good war position, but his stance of trade is unacceptable to me... Richardson isn't a progressive, he is more a moderate.  I have no doubt he could be a good President... but he will never get my support in the Primaries due to his stances on Economics and Social Issues.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

richardson (none / 0)

chris, the positioin that richardson is expounding may sound great politically, but from a policy perspective, it is pretty unsound.

us democrats recognize that the war on terror is a separate war from the iraq war. yet there is little doubt the al-queda and other terrorist groups have entered the country since the 2003 invasion. 650,000 iraqis have already been killed, mostly due to sectarian violence since 2003. it's great that you care about american lives, but without even a residual force in iraq, we are leaving iraqis defenseless in the face of impending civil war. iraqis are people too, chris. we never should have gone into iraq, but now that we're there, we are obligated to leave at least some special force in iraq to bolster the iraqi government.


by eddersen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:46:46 AM EST

Not the world's police (3.00 / 1)

Al Qaeda is not a political movement or form of government, it is a terrorist group. They are given tacit cover by Iraqis because they are fighting the U.S., a common enemy.

I believe Iraqis tolerate the violence because it is toward the common cause of getting the U.S. to leave. Once the U.S. leaves, and Al Qaeda shows that they do not build anything, they simply destroy, I believe the Iraqis will see no positive role for Al Qaeda and purge the foreign forces from their country.

I also think Iraqis probably harbor deep resentment that the U.S. choose Iraqi soil, a sovereign country with no ties to Al Qaeda, to use as the battleground to fight the war on terror. If some foreign force to be put in Iraq to quell violence, it surely can not be American forces.


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:57:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: richardson (none / 0)

"the positioin that richardson is expounding may sound great politically, but from a policy perspective, it is pretty unsound"

Because, you are like, totally more informed on foreign policy than Bill Richardson, right? I mean, he has no ability to determine sound and unsound foreign policy, right?

This is a position that has been repeatedly assailed as not being serious. Well, now it is being backed by someone with more foreign policy experience than the entire US Senate combined. That makes the policy pretty damn serious.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:41:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: richardson (none / 0)

shades of realpolitik. many forget that bismarck was in a very tenuous situation which could have been solved militarily but for which the unity of germany and its existence as a modern state now depend. again chris this is one of your best ones. i am a big fan of bill and i missed this very important point - well ok. I missed the town hall (sigh)  - thats why I've been complaining about wanting to see a debate. kids! they were all over me yesterday.


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:18:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: richardson (none / 0)

it's so typical of chris bowers to respond not in substantive terms, answering the objections i cited, but to lean on someone else's credibility to shut somoene up. just because i have less foreign policy experience than richardson does not mean richardson is always right and i'm always wrong. you do us a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

you are a hypocrite, like many other anti-war liberals. if you were a real liberal (like me), you'd care about those iraqi lives on the ground, the lives on the line. you care only about american lives. i have no respect for you.


by eddersen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: richardson (none / 0)

1. The violence in Iraq is primarily sectarian in nature, and is not caused by Al Qaeda.  Al Qaeda was not welcome in Iraq prior to The Bush War, and will not be welcome when The Bush War is concluded.

2. Our primary concern with Al Qaeda is with their ability to project violence against us, not their ability to foment violence against Iraq.  Feel free to join Operation Yellow Elephant if you wish to fight Al Qaeda in Iraq.


by decon on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 05:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And the presence of US forces in Iraq ... (none / 0)

... strengthens them. A large percentage of the American people are starting to understand that basic point already ... the longer we stay, the more there are that will want to fulfill Bush's nightmare of "following us home".

And even if they are unlikely to be able to succeed, if we stay indefinitely, sooner or later they will work out a way to do it.

We have to let them get back to focusing on why they dislike each other so much, and work out ways to dislike each other without having to kill each other. Al-Qaeda will never have a safe haven in Shia-controlled Iraq, and the more that Sunni's have stable local rule within the existing constitutional arrangements to given them a stake in protecting established authority, the weaker Al-Qaeda's influence in Sunni areas will be.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:06:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Tag Misspelled (none / 0)

Bill Richardson is spelled Bill Bichardson in the tag. A minor typo, but gave me a good chuckle. I tend toward sophomoric humor when tired...

If the Governor gains any traction, I would watch out for underhanded slights from his competitors (much like how our President still calls it the Democrat Party)

Candidate: According to Gov. Bichardson--
Richardson: My name is Richardson!!
Candidate: Here we go again. Bitch, bitch, bitch...


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:46:47 AM EST

This makes no sense (3.00 / 3)

I honestly don't understand why this site continues to endorse a position that has an almost zero chance of being enacted within the next few years. Not to mention one that makes no military sense if taken literally--which is what I have no choice but to do since none of you have provided any exceptions to it--since there will clearly need to be a very LIMITED number of US troops in Iraq for a while.

Like it or not, the US is going to have some military presense in Iraq well into the next president's first term, and quite possibly beyond that, for the three reasons endorsed by just about every Democratic senator (protecting non-military US personnel, training, fighting Al Qaida)--INCLUDING Feingold, as I've pointed out by citing excerpts of his recent statements on this in recent comments (and which went curiously ignored despite your continuing to misstate his STATED position).

I also find your casting of the choice in Iraq as being between continuing the war (be it at present levels or at reduced levels) and removing literally every last troop from Iraq as a false one (not to mention that you're actually presenting three choices here). There is a wide spectrum of choices between continuing the war more or less as is and removing all troops from Iraq. None of the candidates or other Dems have, to the best of my knowledge, specifically stated how many troops they'd be willing to leave in Iraq. It could be 100,000, 50,000, 10,000, or 2000.

My own position on the war--as stated here, on DailyKos and elsewhere in countless comments and several diaries--is that this war was and is a terrible mistake, disaster and tragedy, for the US and Iraq, that it cannot be "won", that we are only making things worse by remaining there on our present mission (whatever the hell that is as I still can't make heads or tails of it), and that we need to get the hell out ASAP and let Iraqis, neighboring countries, and the international community (including, most likely, the US, but in a supportive, not leading role), sort it out.

However, even when this happens, we will still have official government facilities to protect, Iraq will still need our assistance in training their military (well, at least until the pro-Iran Shiites take over and kick us out), and there will still be Al Qaida and other non-Iraqi forces in Anbar who we'll need to fight. This will call for a limited number of troops. They should not all be US troops. Preferably, they'll be mostly non-US troops, or a mix, as in Afghanistan. But some US troops will have to be part of this. I just don't see any way around this unless we're prepared to completely abandon Iraq--which seems morally reprehensible to me, not to mention dangerous.

To endorse a position in which we leave ZERO US troops in Iraq is, to me, not just militarily naive (not to mention, taken to its logical limit, implies that we should not have troops in Afghansitan, the Korean DMZ, or anywhere else in the world), but politically naive as well, because it sets up a "purity" fight that this position not only cannot and will not win, but which will just needlessly alienate voters from those Dem candidates who are far more likely to win the nomination--i.e. the same self-righteous fools who voted for Nader in 2000 and allowed Bush to win, all in the name of "purity". That went really well, didn't it?

I honestly don't understand why you're holding the three major candidates to task for a position that not only does every Democratic senator also hold--including, like I said, Feingold, whom I highly respect and wish were running--but which is going to be US policy no matter who is the next president, and which, I think, is simply unavoidable from a military if not moral point of view.

We're going to have limited numbers of troops in Iraq for a number of years, and to pretend and insist otherwise is naive and pointless. Instead of being about keeping present or modestly reduced troop levels vs. having zero troops in Iraq, this debate should be about keeping large numbers vs. very limited numbers of troops in Iraq for these very limited missions, and only for as long as they're valid missions.

Sorry if this is rant-like. I mean no disrespect. I like this site and respect and agree with your opinions on most issues. But on this one, while I respect your opinion, I don't agree with it--or, frankly, understand it, for the reasons stated here. Ending our involvement in this civil war is honorable and necessary. But ending our military presence in Iraq ENTIRELY is--for now--simply not tenable, politically or militarily. And a certain favorite senator from Wisconsin appears to agree with me on this.

Ok, now flame away and call me a Bush sympathizer or DLC hawk. I'm not, as my blog presence shows, I believe. Nor am I talking out of both sides of my mouth. It is possible to be against this war but supportive of limited and unavoidable military missions abroad--which BushCo's disasterous war has made necessary, I believe.


by kovie on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 05:20:33 AM EST

Common Sense (3.00 / 1)

Reading this post, and posts like it,  bring home for me how entirely the conservatives and complicit media have set the definitions and frames of this debate.  

Though Kovie is making arguments that are prefectly reasonable in a neo-con context, he is proving now, as he has done before, that he is a thoughtful and insightful commenter.  At this point, it will be easier to win over low-info voters, who havent been paying much attention, and therefore have not been indoctrinated in this fashion, than it will be to convince the well meaning concern trolls that infest the blogs on our side.  

Time does not allow a line by line exogesis of all the specious claims made above.. but here are some rapid fire responses:

1. The US military maintains overseas bases in friendly nations.  A prerequisite for a successful overseas base is the inviation of a legitimate government, and a result of a net increase in regional stability.  When these criteria are met, the US can keep a military presence: UK, Germany, Poland, Japan, Korea, Kuwait.  The US can not maintain bases in areas in which preceived illigitamacy results in social unrest by local populations: Somalia, Lebanon, Iraq, Vietnam.

2. Vietnam was the great battle of the cold war.  If we lost Vietnam to the Commies, other countries would fall in a domino fashion until the whole world turned communist.   But it didnt.  Nothing in history justified what happened in Vietnam, not the thousands of military causulites on the US side, or the crimes the US committed, with noble intentions, against the people of Vietnam.  You are advocating a Kissinger compromise in Iraq, in which we stay to stabilize "our side".  That lasted less than two years before the choppers lifted off the rooftops of Siagon for the last time.  

3. Newsflash, there are no Al Qaeda operatives of any significance in Iraq, and they won't go there.  Know why?  It's too fucking dangerous.  The foreign fighters becoming embedded are Sunni from Saudi Arabia, and Shia from Iran.  And they all hate Bin Laden, considering he is still actively advocating an overthrow of the two patron states.  

4. The subtle truce between al-Maliki and Sadr is over.  The US plan went from force protection to surge neighborhood watch.  And now that hundreds of micro-bases have been set up in combat zones, our soldiers are extremely tempting targets.  We cant actually bring stability by force to even one city, and our casualty rate will start to skyrocket.  

5. The Iraqi people are overwhelmingly opposed to an American occupation, but are unable to demonstate due to widespread social unrest.  As Iraq becomes more stable, the voice of Iraqi's demanding withdrawal will grow and get violent.  

Now, in analysing Iraq, the great experts from Bush to Clinton, emphasize that the Iraqis 'better get their acts together.'  (WTF!)  What a dismissive and offensive comment.  It is like banging on the bathroom door: "Get your act together, you're gonna be late for school."  Anyway who uses this term, or its various iterations,  are unfit to have a substantative opinion and should shut the fuck up.  

What is going on in Iraq is a social run on the bank.  Banks won't become insolvent if all the people with accounts don't try to withdraw their money.  But when the panic starts, it doesnt matter if logic dictates they should back off and trust in the integrity of the system.  By the time the panic starts, its becomes a matter of survival for the depositer.  "That guy at the head of the line just pulled his money, and you are telling me that I should just go home, and trust that the bank will still have my money tomorrow?  I got a family to feed!"

The bank in this case is the government of Iraq, and the panic has been rabid for four years.  The people of Iraq must consolidate their own power, form their own alliances, protect their own families, because the government wont do it for them, and these primal drives are incompatible with the establishment of a stable nation state.  

One question I want you to think about Kovie.  What would you do if you were Nuri al-Maliki?  If you want to live, as a Shia and the current puppet of the US?  


by Winston Smith on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:46:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

3. Newsflash, there are no Al Qaeda operatives of any significance in Iraq, and they won't go there.  Know why?  It's too fucking dangerous.  The foreign fighters becoming embedded are Sunni from Saudi Arabia, and Shia from Iran.  And they all hate Bin Laden, considering he is still actively advocating an overthrow of the two patron states.  

I have to take issue with the idea that Sunni fighters from Saudi Arabia are incompatible with an al Qaeda presence.  The Saudi Royals seem to be quite happy to export their own "radical Sunni fundamentalist" problem to other countries to keep the heat off themselves.

That being said, a post-US al Qaeda presence in Iraq is incompatible with the interests of every one of Iraq's neighbors -- the question is what happens with the al Qaeda types once the US leaves.  To me, there are two options -- Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia reach a co-operative agreement to capture/kill radical Sunni fighters left in Iraq, or these fighters are given safe passage to continue their struggle against the US in Afghanistan.

Neither Saudi Arabia nor Syria cares which option is pursued, because none of them share a border with Afghanistan.  Iran, on the other hand, would much prefer the co-operative arrangement, because it does share a border with Afghanistan but would prefer accomodation with Sunni fundamentalists to a "go it alone" attack on Sunnis to prevent a region wide religious war.


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:23:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

al qaeda? (none / 0)

Is it clear to you that this use of the label is any more than branding? That these are guys who really would head out to Afghanistan?  That their presence will continue after the American occupation ends?  That there really is some kind of coordinated, international activity?


by jayackroyd on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: al qaeda? (none / 0)

i just wanted to add, being in speech, that the job of being a translator in iraq is very dangerous. many locals will be killed if they help the americans just simply communicate with other iraqis. most soldiers do not speak the language, its a huge barrier.

i think there is a broad resentment of America in Iraq.

i don't know if its the same with other countries in the region, and what they might be able to do, to help. but i do think that language plays a big role in helping because if someone walks up to you speaking pig latin and telling you , you can barely understand them, that there is a touchy diplomatic concept that you could grasp - would you listen to them?


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:50:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: al qaeda? (none / 0)

Is it clear to you that this use of the label is any more than branding?

yes.  I think its pretty obvious that there are quite a few people in Iraq that subscribe to the overall al Qaeda mindset at this point.... including some who specifically identify with Osama bin Laden's movement.

That these are guys who really would head out to Afghanistan?

absolutely.  This is especially true among the foreign fighters/terrorists in Iraq, and I also believe that there are now "home grown" Iraqis who would go to Afghanistan to continue the struggle against "the Great Satan" -- especially if they are presented with the choice of being capture/killed by the Iraqi government or leaving the country.

That their presence will continue after the American occupation ends?

yes, if they were allowed a "safe haven" in Iraq from which to operate, some of them would stick around.  I just don't think that once the US is gone, their presence will be tolerated by either the Iraqi government or the vast majority of Iraq's Sunnis who would have to provide that "safe haven"

That there really is some kind of coordinated, international activity?

centrally organized?  No.  But I do think that a network exists.


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

So, I'm making "neocon context" arguments because I'm supporting maintaining very limited forces in Iraq, as needed--and if needed--for the 3 reasons cited by the entire Democratic caucus--including Feingold? (And I'm incredibly curious as to why, despite my having brought this up WITH EXCERPTS and LINKS, no one has as of yet seen fit to address this curious little inconsistency--does Feingold somehow get a pass because he can do no wrong--how is that not a form of trollism?)

Anyway, I certainly appreciate your backhanded compliment, starting out by calling me a quasi-neocon, then qualifying this by disengenuously calling me a "thoughtful and insightful commenter" (no irony there, of course), and then concluding that I'm a "concern troll" because I happen to have a position somewhat to the right of this site's official and unchallengeable dogma (and yet, once again, curiously in sync with the ENTIRE Democratic senate caucus--hmm, who's the concern troll?).

Is that what's you're saying, that it's either agree with us nearly 100% or else you're a concern troll? Or am I misunderstanding you?

In any case, all this aside (this is not about me or this site, after all, but foreign and military policy), if you re-read my comment above, you'll see that my position (which, I repeat yet again, is the one held by EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR in one form or another, including Feingold and I'm assuming Sanders too since he voted for the resolution that spelled it out) calls for very limited US forces, as needed, and ONLY as needed, for as long as needed--and in concert with international agreement and cooperation. If Iraq and/or the international community don't want or need our troops there, or we simply don't need troops there, then fine, we need to get out. Until then, we're going to need limited numbers of specialized troops for the 3 reasons stated.

At the very least, troops to protect the US embassy--standard issue in every country in which we have one, so it's hardly controversial and almost pedantic to mention it. But I'm just trying to be literal here as to whether we have troops in Iraq (although, of course, technically, all embassy-based troops are on US soil, so perhaps this would not technically be "Iraq"). And, also of course, if Iraq severs diplomatic relations with the US and tells us to vacate our embassy, then this is moot. I don't see that happening. Nor should it, I think (although of course the deplorably expensive and enormous US embassy in Baghdad is a travesty).

I also assume that, so long as we have relations with Iraq, they will want our and other countries' expertise and help in building up and training their army. I see nothing wrong with that--so long as we're helping to build a real army, and not yet another thuggish praetorian guard for the next Iraqi dictator.

And despite your claims to the contrary, all that I've read on Iraq since our invasion indicates that there are Al Qaida bases in the Sunni-controlled Anbar province, as there were in Afghanistan under the Taliban. If so, do you actually propose leaving them there, to cause harm to Iraq, neighbouring countries, or the rest of the world--including perhaps the US? And if you do, does that mean that you're also against our presence in Afghanistan? I would prefer if military action against any such AQ forces in Iraq be carried out mostly if not entirely by Iraqi forces, but I doubt that will be possible for several years, for a number of reasons, and that the US (and hopefully other countries) will have to provide troops to do this.

You may not agree with this, which is fine, but please don't call it specious, or imply that I'm a neocon lite because I'm not for pulling ALL US troops out of a dangerous war zone. It seems to me that to resort to using labels such as this and "concern troll" to discredit someone is itself specious, and rather lame. I.e. you either agree with me, or you're on the other side. Hmm, that line sounds awfully familiar, speaking of BushCo neoconisms...


by kovie on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

kovie's posts are much more intelligent than his flamers'.

these aren't "neo-con" points. why is it that every time netroots democrats see something they don't like, they attribute it to neo-con framing? kovie brings up valid considerations. they're not liberal or conservative. they're just points to think about when dealing with iraq policy.


by eddersen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

Thanks. I'm not ideological let alone religious about any of this, but what I view as practical.

Although, truth be told, to the extent that I do have an ideological "background", it's probably closest to 70's neoliberalism, of the sort endorsed by Henry Jackson and Pat Moynihan and the New Republic.

I.e. maintain a strong military and defend our morally defensible interests and allies abroad, where and as necessary, but no global adventures, no military or economic imperialism, no lying, phony domino theories. And if we go to war, only as a last resort, and only when it makes sense and we really have no choice, and not for theoretical (or dishonest) preventive reasons let alone to establish global hegemony.

Perhaps I misunderstood what neoliberalism meant, perhaps it made sense once and no longer does, or perhaps it has been distorted to serve neocon imperialistic purposes. In any case, I'm not longer beholder to any ideology. Except, perhaps, to what I used to think neoliberalism really meant, whether or not it actually did.

I welcome the debate here, but hope that it remains free of unwarranted accusations of bad faith and hidden agendas.


by kovie on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 05:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

Thanks for your reply.  Again, I do like your comments, and I wasnt being ironic in calling you thoughtful.  In addition, it was late for me when I wrote the post (I work nights, and am usually in bed by 6 am) and if given the choice i would write it differently.  In fact, I lost track of my train of thought half-way through.  Whatever.

While you are thoughtful and articulate, your basic premise is flawed.  The occupation, as a matter of strategy, comes down to one issue: will a US occupation army lead to long-term stabilization, or not.  

You believe that it will.  You are wrong.  The very best that this occupation can accomplish is the maintainance of an unacceptable status quo.  The only difference between 200,000 troops and 20,000 troops is number of US casualties and the length of time before an active civil war.  

I am sorry if I offended you by calling you a concern troll.  You offended me by calling me naive.  And I am tired of people like you, however well-intentioned, assuming the mantle of the grown-up realist, and dismissing those of us intent on ending the occupation as naive liberal hippies.

This issue has nothing to do with progressive politics.  I could make moral arguments, but I am not.  This is cold hard strategy.  We are not at half-time, we are playing the endgame.  Keeping troops in Iraq for years, as you insist that we need, will not ultimately change the game.  

So what do you think about Nuri al-Maliki?  Do you think that he is diligently working under his constitutional authority, for a peaceful stable Iraq?  He is not.  Right now, he is doing one of two things (probably both): embezzeling as much money as possible so that he and his family can live a comfortable life in exile, or empowering Shia factions so that he will have a strong power base when the war starts.  If you think that al-Maliki or any senior Iraqi official is working toward a stable coalition government, it is you who are naive, my friend.  

So in a context of a failed military occupation, universally loathed by the local population who considers it morally acceptable to kill our soldiers, where even our puppet government is undermining our interests, explain to me why we need to maintain an occupation for years?

I understand how hard it will be to watch the 'soon to unfold' civil war in Iraq.  I suspect at this point that the Saudis and the Iranians will be able to provide enough support to their respective sides to prevent a full scale genocide.  But, the conflict is inevitable, and I have been expecting it since 2003, so I have had time to prepare myself.  

Anyway, I am interested what you think, and I hope you respond.  


by Winston Smith on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

Where did I claim to support an occupation? I did and do not. I am talking about three limited missions:

One, protecting the US embassy and perhaps certain other yet to be defined US interests, facilities and personnel. I am quite flexible as to what this might constitute.

Two, training the Iraqi army--if that's what they want us to do. If not, no training forces.

And three, a limited number of troops to carry out limited missions for a limited amount of time, as and ONLY as needed, to target actual anti-western terrorist bases and forces in Iraq--and ONLY those. I.e. a true expedionary force on a true expeditionary mission.

You can disagree with any or all of this, but my making these proposals does not make me a "concern troll", because I sincerely hold them. Trolls are disruptive and unserious and merely trying to stir discord and/or have some sick fun. I am trying to do none of this. You may believe otherwise, but I suggest you dig up my previous posts here and elsewhere and judge for yourself.

I do not claim to have all the answers or even be right. Like I wrote previously, I'm open to being convinced that I'm wrong, and that these missions are either unnecessary and/or impossible, and ultimately counterproductive. But not by being accused of being a troll. That will get you nowhere with me.

As for calling you naive, that's hardly the same thing as calling someone a troll. You can be serious and naive--or mistaken. You cannot be serious and a troll--mistaken or not.

Once again, you're missing my point. I am NOT endorsing continued occupation. I want the troops involved in the occupation out asap. What I am endorsing is limited numbers of troops for scope and time-limited missions, especially going after Al Qaida. I am endorsing a limited and targeted PRESENCE, NOT occupation.

As for Al-Maliki, I expect him and his semi-puppet government to be gone the second we're gone, so what he wants is almost irrelevant. There is a civil war going on in Iraq that we have and should have no part in, let alone be occupiers there. I'm just talking about the limitd missions that I've outlined, no different from what our original mission was in Afganistan (until BushCo botched that up).

I.e. go after those who have harmed or seek to harm us or our allies (which of course goes way beyond Iraq), wherever they are, as is suitable to the situation and location, and leave locals to sort out their problems on their own (with our support, if they want it and we can provide it).

Not sure if I'm getting through here or if you believe me, but all I can say is that this is what I endorse: limited missions, NOT occupation.


by kovie on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

I apologized for calling you a troll.  I stand by belief that your position here is like a concern troll: "I agree with you guys in general, but you got to get real and stop being naive.. blah blah blah."  That's what concern trolls do.  I am not naive about Iraq, I am a realist.

You are not endorsing a permanent occupation per se, just a strategy that requires a permanent occupation.  

The issue of embassy protection is a red herring.  Foreign governments may protect their embassies with soldiers.  This is standard operating procedure and I have no problem with it.  

In Iraq, that is simply not an option.  You think just maintaining a squad of marines to protect our embassy would work?  We couldnt get personal to or from the embassy with risking casualties.  Even our helicopters would be shot down.  In order to even keep an embassy in Iraq, we would require a permanent military occupation of both the airport, and surrounding territory, and the entire green zone.  That goes well beyond embassy protection, and in itself is contrary to the establishment of Iraq as a sovereign nation.  Imagine a foreign government requiring a military occupation of Dulles International Airport, and the greater Georgetown neighborhood in DC to maintain an embassy in the US, and I think you'll understand what I mean.

That we need to maintain an occupation to train the Iraqi army is also a red herring and a classic neocon talking point.  Does anyone still believe this?  Four years and billions of dollars later, and the Iraqi army is still untrained.  It would have been cheaper and faster to send all those soldiers to private US colleges for undergraduate degrees.  As the insurgency revs up, military advisors can't even trust Iraqi battalians.  You think that if military advisors went to train Iraqi soldiers with out an occupation army they would survive.  That is naive.  

Here's an idea:  Fucking bus fare to Kuwait.  We can train all the Iraqi soldiers we want there, on our terms, to fufill whatever missions their government requires.  

Limited missions?  I don't know what you are talking about here, but I would not be opposed to limited missions, when some criteria are met.  Iraq would need a sovereign government that can survive without the support of our occupation army, and that government would have to request help with specific missions that are well defined and doable.  

You calling me naive is a lot worse than me calling you a troll, and let me explain why.  The troll comment, which I apologized for, is rhetoric limited to this site.  But the naive club that you bat around is endemic in public debate in this country.  This attitude that people who recognize the inevitable outcome of our invasion are naive and shouldnt presume to work toward an end of occupation because we are not realists, and we dont understand the way things really work, is offensive.

It is also patently wrong.  If you think we can dramatically dial down our occupation, in the way that you describe, and not significantly increase the risks to our soldiers, then it is you who are naive.  Of course, my brother was forced to leave his job and pregnant wife because his Air National Guard unit was deployed to Iraq, so this may be more important to me than to you.  


by Winston Smith on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Sense (none / 0)

Why don't we forget about names and labels since I think that we both care enough about this situation (you for obvious personal reasons--and I sincerely wish the best for your brother and sister-in-law and their future family and hope that he stays well out of harm's way--but me also because, in addition to the obvious humanitarian concern for the troops and Iraqis that any decent person should have, I'm originally from Israel and have many relatives there, so I have a personal connection to the region) that we can write these off as heat of the moment things.

And I understand the distinction between your accusing me of being a concern troll and accusing me of acting like one. But I don't think that I did act like one ("yes, but" is NOT, in and of itself, concern trollism, which is, like all trollism, willfully misrepresenting oneself in order to achieve an ulterior goal, be it to disrupt or deceive, and which I did not do), but let's just put that behind us.

I should also add that I believe that by naive I meant politically naive, meaning that I highly doubt that the US political situation will be likely to lead to the complete withdrawal of ALL US troops from Iraq for years. Regardless of whether one believes that this should happen, I meant that it's naive to believe that it will happen, from a purely political perspective, no matter who becomes president. I just don't see any of the likely candidates doing this.

Anyway, I have to repeat that I am not calling for occupation, which is what we have now. I.e. WE lay down the law and enforce it (with, of course, very limited success) using troops with heavy military equipment going on regular patrols.

I'm calling for--as and if needed--limited troops to train Iraqi troops IF they want it and we think that there's a point (I know full well that years and billions of dollars later we have little to show for our "training"). If Iraq's government remains weak, you're probably right, and there's really no point in trying to train troops in such a politically unstable situation. But if they ask for and can benefit from it, I think we should give it to them, in a manner that protects our troops from harm. I don't care if it takes place on the outskirts of Baghdad or in Nome, Alaska, so long as it's done on our terms and properly. So I'll grant you that training, if we do it, doesn't necessarily require our military to be present in Iraq.

I'm also calling for--as and if needed--limited troops to pursue, break up and capture whatever Al Qaida fighters are in Anbar, preferably with the participation of Iraqi troops. In fact, they should take the lead on this while the US plays a supportive role, e.g. locating, targeting, some detention and interrogation (in accordance with international law), etc. But if Iraqi forces can't or won't do this, and there's good reason to believe that allowing AQ to remain and operate in Anbar will eventually hurt us, then I think that we'll have to do this on our own--as we should have done in Tora Bora.

As for embassy protection, you make valid points so let's put that aside for now. However, I'm guessing that we'll have other interests in Iraq that need military protection. NOT Halliburton & oil companies--they can get their own protection--but humanitarian aid workers and such..

So the bulk of our military presence in Iraq would be limited protection of vital interests, of a purely defensive nature, and limited anti-Al Qaida military missions, of a hopefully supportive nature, and only if they are determined to be in Iraq in significant and dangerous numbers. And maybe some training.

I am not completely convinced that any of this is absolutely necessary. I just think that it's premature to declare that none of it is or will be necessary. In today's poisoned political climate caused by BushCo, it's nearly impossible to determined what the military and intelligence experts really believe about the situation vis a vis Al Qaida's presence and any need for US military presence in Iraq beyond the next year or two. However, I am sufficiently convinced that if decent liberals such as Feingold and Sanders tacitly approve of limited military presense for these reasons, that they're doing this out of conviction, not political posturing.

I try to separate that fact that Bush went into this needless war on lies, and then proceeded to totally screw things up, from the fact that we're now in the terrible situation that he has caused and that there is no clear way out that is both morally defensible and militarily tenable. We should never have gotten into this war, but we're in it now, and getting out is not as cut and dry as we'd like.

But perhaps I'm wrong, and we can get out completely without adverse consequence to the US, region or Iraq, that our continued presence could have prevented. If what's going to happen is going to happen whether or not we stay, then we might as well get out. But I'm not convinced of that.

Like many I agonize over this constantly. Beyond drastically reducing our military presence and ending our occupation--both of which are clearly pointless, counterproductive and disasterous for our troops and Iraqis and which we clearly have to do asap--I'm not sure what we have to do. Leave completely, or leave limited troops for the missions I've described? Right now I'm inclined to believe in the latter. But like I said I could be wrong, and am open to being convinced that I am.


by kovie on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

What about the Kurds, Gov. Richardson?

If a Shiia govenrment Baghdad went after the Kurds the way tht Saddam did in the 80's would you take no action to stop it?


by Sam I Am on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 06:45:07 AM EST

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

the tables have turned sam. the kurds are much better off now. kurdistan is more secure, and stronger than many of the southern regions.

its really the turks that are the trouble. but again diplomatically the shias are having enough trouble just trying to keep their local grocery store from getting torched, arent they?


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

Part 4 of Governor Richardson's 7 Point New Realism Plan for Iraq:

Promote Iraqi Reconciliation Conference: We should promote an Iraqi Reconciliation Conference to bring the factions together to seek compromises and to begin confidence-building measures, including the end of militia violence. Our redeployment will give us more leverage than we have now, caught in the crossfire, to get the Iraqis to reconcile.

If Governor Richardson can get the North Koreans to start dismantling their nuclear program, negotiate successfully with the likes of Saddam Hussein, Fidel Castro, Omar al-Bashir, and Kim Jong Il, as President of the United States, I have no doubt about his abilities to engage rival Iraqi factions in productive, respectful discourse.

There is no substitute for experience, as George W. Bush has shown us. Edwards, Clinton, and Obama can all talk about their plans for foreign policy, but while they're doing that, Bill Richardson is out there leading (most recently at the request of the President of the United States).


by Ken Camp on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:32:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Iraq has no national defense force (3.00 / 1)

You can rip Clinton if you want, but any real policy for Iraq going forward has to deal with the fact that US is not going to leave its armor, air force and logistical capability behind.  

Richardson focuses on the need to create a political agreement within the country for the different ethnic groups and on the need to establish a security arrangement involving Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and Turkey as  a precursor to withdrawal.  This is the only real solution, but it is not in the least bit clear that is an attainable solution without, as discussed in the most recent edition of Foreign Affairs, a lengthy civil war.


by jayackroyd on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:50:22 AM EST

Re: Iraq has no national defense force (none / 0)

If there is no solution without a protracted civil war ... which certainly is possible ... then that's the situation, and the only question is whether American forces are there to keep the civil war going.

After all, any US intervention in the civil war, after it "stops fighting", will be to buttress one side against another. And that will prolong the survival of the side that is being buttressed while at the same time weakening its long term position in a post-civil-war Iraq.

The best we can do is to try to patch together a compromise on our way out. The prospects aren't good, but the prospects for any other course of action are worse.

Anyone who thinks this can be solved militarily just isn't paying attention. What could be solved militarily was solved militarily in very short order ... what we are coping with now are the problems created by the military presence.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:13:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let them have their civil war (none / 0)

This has been my view for quite some time--that they're going to have to have their civil war at some point, that US presence is, at best, delaying it and, at worst, hardening positions in such a way that it will extend the civil war's duration.

Where Richardson got it right (and everyone else did so as well, but I thought he said it best) is that there needs to be a joint security agreement with the surrounding countries.  This will be very difficult to negotiate, especially given that there is no trusted third party to serve as go-betweens.  

The guy from the UN who was killed when a hotel was mortared whose name escapes me might have been able to play such a role.  But I think Richardson's overly optimistic about the results of talks between, say, Iran and Saudi Arabia, with Iraq supine in between them.

Plan A was the US ruling through a puppet to maintain a substantial military presence in the middle east using Iraq as the main base.  There is no plan B that doesn't involve rebuilding their military, which I don't see anybody agreeing to--except, perhaps, Iran.


by jayackroyd on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:21:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let them have their civil war (none / 0)

Plan D (decentralize power) involves provincial guards with jurisdictions limited to their province except for a fraction that can be called up to national service by the central authority, and a national army that holds the 2 B's ... Baghdad and the border.

An armed peace.

Getting it to a disarmed peace is a long and difficult process, but not as difficult as trying to referee a civil war.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

Bill Richardson is either not being realistic, or he is conveniently leaving out a few details.  There is NO way all troops can be pulled out in one fell swoop and the country known as Iraq just totally abandoned.  It isn't going to happen.  There must be a transitional period.

Hillary by the way, made it clear she will not establish permanent bases in Iraq - she repeated
it twice in her comments last night.  She stressed the importance of the other countries in the region, including Turkey (keeping Turkey as an ally as she AND Howard Dean have stated, is of utmost importance) while also protecting the Kurds who "have done their part in Iraq" and must be protected from almost certain mass slaughter.

Also remember that Bill Richardson promised complete healthcare reform in one year - not by the end of his first term, but in "one year", as if such a thing could even be possible.

I think it is important to be realistic.


by marasaud on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:26:23 AM EST

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Richardson plan also rely heavily on a diplomatic solution for the region. It isn't just pull out and see you later, its also lets sit down and settle this. No offense, but a lot of candidates may propose this, but this is very central to what Richardson proposes because he may actually pull it off.


by emmettoconnell on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:22:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

you are right and richardson is a international class diplomat - i think since the iraq constitution itself actually enshrines corruption at the highest levels its really a touch and feel thing for the region to get the iraq situation sort of quiet down

10,000 iraqis demonstrated against america this week didn't they


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:09:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

OK, so now Bill Richardson, who is the former US Ambassador to the UN, and who brokers major international deals on a regular basis, isn't being "realistic," but you are?

Explain that one to me again. Tell me why Bill Richardson doesn't know what he is talking about here.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:37:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson: (none / 0)

Richardson does not say to take the troops out in one fell swoop. The year is not when the troops start withdrawing, its when the last units are done pulling out.

Certainly if several hundred thousand are doing more harm than good by their presence, that balance is not going to swing the other way if its reduced to 70,000 or 30,000. They will also do more harm than good.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:15:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Richardson (3.00 / 1)

One thing to remember about Richardson is that he has been very close to the DLC his entire political career.  He will be moderately conservative, thus not particularly friendly to working people, in domestic policy.  So look, if you only care about foreign policy I can see supporting Richardson, but if you are a progressive at all you are not going to like his positions on economic issues.


Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:36:04 AM EST

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

Exactly.  That's why I said upthread that I'm willing to accept a little less on Iraq from Edwards than Richardson.  Anyway, it's not clear to me that Richardson said what Chris thinks he said.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:23:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

If you're a certain kind of progressive you won't like his domestic positions.

I'm so sick of the ever-growing idea that people who are moderates on free trade are somehow the bane of a progressive existence.

I don't think every free trade deal is a good one, and neither does Bill Richardson.  I don't think NAFTA was an unmitigated success and neither does Bill Richardson.  I also don't believe that protectionism is a sound policy for the economic interests of American citizens and neither does Bill Richardson.

The point is not that the "progressive wing" is inherently protectionist.  Such a characterization would be just as misleading as implying that those who are less skeptical of free trade are indistinguishable from the Cato Institute.  There is room for a balanced understanding of the issues, one that admits that "free trade" often ends up helping corporations instead of people while also recognizing that it lowers the cost of some essential products which improves the quality of life of hundreds of millions of consumers.

I also find it interesting that the general tone of MyDD on Richardson is to constantly talk about his qualifications, his experience, his authority to speak on the issue of foreign policy (Chris above is only one example among many) while simultaneously screaming at him on free trade.  Well, he is just as qualified in that area.  What many posters seem to mean is that we should trust such a qualified speaker when his position aligns with their's.


by Baldrick on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

I guess I am tired of people defining "progressive" domestically only if they are pro-choice or otherwise good on social issues, regardless of how conservative they are on economic issues.  Obviously, people are going to have a different opinion of what is or isnt a progressive and that's fine.  And anyone can call himself or herself a progressive.  Heck, Lieberman sometimes refers himself as one.  To me, however, a person cant both support an anti-worker platform and still be defined as a progressive, regardless of how good or bad he or she is on other issues.  And ya, anyone who wants to can can call himself or herself a progressive and still take the Tom Friedman position that free trade's enourmous wage lowering pressure can be cured through more education spending, but no study supports that.  Again, everyone has their own definition of what a progressive is.  But Im not going to call anyone a progressive who supports the corporate agenda on free trade vs. making the world trading system work for everyone.


Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

So far as I've seen, Richardson has no regrets over NAFTA or any free trade bill.  He seems to be a neoliberal.  I'm also including his talk about improving "access to affordable health care" (rather than government-provided universal health care), and his talk about how great business is and how its wrong that Democrats criticize business, because they create jobs.  And I'm including his support for a guest worker program.  The guy fits the New Dem neoliberal perspective just about perfectly.  While plenty of jobs have been created in New Mexico, he is a pretty anti-working people guy.
In other words- if Bill Clinton frustrated you, get ready for more.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

Yes. That's my problem with Richardson. Note he pretty much ducked his last MoveOn question: how about U.S. companies' access to the Iraqi's oil. After being willing to precipitate constitutional crisis by encouraging deauthorization of the war (in addition to "no residual forces") he weaseled a good deal about corporate access to the oil.

Don't trust him on domestic issues either -- NM is no model of a healthy work environment; it is a resource extraction economy.

But then, I don't expect to like any of them. I just hope for one I can stomach.


Can It Happen Here?
by janinsanfran on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm no fan of Hillary's (none / 0)

but to be completely fair to her, she only want to keep troops in Iraq for training, counterterrorism, intelligence, logistics, force protection, and maybe border security. that is what every Democrat wants, and that happens to be the best policy. cutting off our training mission or stopping counterterrorist actions would be stupid, and keeping a force of 30,000-40,000 American troops, most of whom would be on the perimeter of Iraq and away from violence will not be problematic in terms of causalties for us. i feel like we in the netroots get too carried away with our antiwar fervor, and I have been against this war from the beginning, but we lose sight of the fact that there are legitimate concerns in Iraq, and any sensible person would understand that the costs of us having a small residual non-combat force there for certain small missions is highly beneficial and has very low costs.


by ahf8 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:57:12 AM EST

Re: I'm no fan of Hillary's (none / 0)

that is what every Democrat wants, and that happens to be the best policy.

What a completely absurd statement. There isn't a single thing that every Democrat wants, and leading off with such ridiculous assertions completely nullifies everything else you might have to say.


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:28:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm no fan of Hillary's (none / 0)

This statement is absolutely wrong.  No not all of the candidates support keeping troops in Iraq to fight "terrorists" as Clinton does.  I believe she is the only candidate who has supported that.  And she is dead wrong.  Keeping troops in Iraq to fight terrorists means we will be there forever because the terrorists will be there as long as we are.


Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Is there a transcript for the Moveon forum yet?


by yitbos96bb on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:02:01 AM EST

Bill Richardson is profoundly qualified (none / 0)

Wow chris you are right. I have always been kittenish about Richardson.

I just wish there were more debates so we could find out more about these candidates. I don't think everyone get a chance to dig into that town hall meeting. imho these debates and town hall type things are really really important and as happy as I am that guys like imus can't go off and slander people, and news media entertainers that pretend to be news reporters can't go off and pack away a democratic debate into a vault so that they can use it for sound bites,  I'm still sort of sad that there have been such a few cancelled debates.

it always seems to be something, doesn't it. when is the first big nationally televised debate?

Bill richardson is my favorite dark horse in this race. I would love to see a debate that pits a former governor and UN diplomat against three senators.  super post!! thanks again!!!!


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:02:13 AM EST

Re: Richardson: "I Would Have No Residual (none / 0)

Of all the candidates running for President in either party, Richardson has the best experience and is the most qualified to be President from serving in the House, as UN Ambassador, Energy Secretary, and a Gov.  Unfortunately, running for the Presidency is not just about qualifications, it is also a popularity contest.  The question I have about Richardson is if a slightly shlubby, not very charasmatic candidate can be elected.  I just can't tell if the guy has an appeal to national voters but I have no doubt he would be a very President if elected.


by John Mills on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:18:57 AM EST

Sorry for Richardson (none / 0)

But he's blowing smoke your ass.  

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid= -5308196622692748202


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:19:51 AM EST

Link fixed (none / 0)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid= -5308196622692748202


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:20:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry for Richardson (none / 0)

That's Brian Schweitzer, genius.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:35:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry for Richardson (none / 0)

Yep.

Stating the reason why there's going to be troops in Iraq, residual, whatever you want to call it, for a long time.  At least until we don't need Oil.

So.  When Richardson becomes president and there's still troops in Iraq, are we gonna call Richardson a liar?

Probably not.  He was just campaigning for the nomination.

What I'm interested in is hearing you say Schweitzer is full of shit.  Cause if he's not full of shit, your whole frame on the issue, your whole argument -- troops left in Iraq = Continuing Iraq war -- falls apart.

So.  When Schweitzer says there's going to be troops in Iraq whether we like it or not, is he full of shit?

You don't even have to say those words.

You can just say he's wrong.

I don't think he is.

And a politician who is willing to own up to those facts has my support.  Not the one who tells me what I want to hear.


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:00:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry for Richardson (none / 0)

On issues of foreign policy, I'm more inclined to listen to Bill Richardson than Brian Schweitzer.  Not because Schweitzer isn't smart and generally great all around, but because he has no foreign policy experience aside from working in Saudi Arabia.  Meanwhile, Bill Richardson has more foreign policy experience than the entire state of Montana combined.

Again, to underline the point that Chris has been making throughout the thread, what makes you or anyone else think that Bill Richardson isn't as smart as you about these issues?


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:34:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry for Richardson (none / 0)

Because he has made a promise (no residual troops) without answering any of the concerns:

Ok.

So you don't believe there will be any Terrorist cells in Iraq, or if you do, you believe the Iraqis will take care of them, or if they can't you believe you can take of them with troops stationed outside of Iraq?

Ok.  You believe it doesn't make sense to continue to train Iraqis?

Ok.  And this is the most important point.  You believe oil in the middle east isn't as important to us as the other candidates.  Or explain how Iraq's are going to help protect the strait of Hormuz, etc.?

These are all valid concerns.

And a promise like this:  "No Residual Troops" without any statements about these concerns just tends to ring false for me.

If Richardson can cover the three bases above, IF he has done so, I'd like to hear it.

Then I'll start believing he'll keep no "residual" troops in Iraq.

And lastly.  This isn't meant to criticize Richardson.  So my subject line does me a disservice.  I apologize for that.

The point of my post is to simply do my best to cut through unrealistic expectations.

I do believe Schweitzer is speaking the truth, and Richardson is campaigning for President.

There's nothing wrong with that.

There is something wrong with trying to convince everyone that some residual troops in Iraq is equivalent to continuing the war in Iraq.  The war in Iraq is defined as "Patrolling Civil War".

That ends.

If you define war in Iraq as, for example "Protecting an Oil supply", then you have to be a brave soul and make the same conclusion about Gov. Schweitzer that you'd make about anyone else.  He's for continuing the war in Iraq.

And I don't believe he is.

As if we're still at war with Germany cause we still have troops stationed there!


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:53:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry for Richardson (none / 0)

As opposed to the plan put forth by whom?


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:46:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great Post (3.00 / 1)

Great post Chris.

Several of the commenters have said we need to be "realistic" and leave troops in Iraq. Those folks need to read the history of the Vietnam war and see how unrealistic what they are advocating really is.

The US never had any valid reasons for sending troops into Iraq and still has no valid reason for keeping them there. Most Iraqis rightfully see American troops as occupiers, there to defend Americann oil companies and control the Middle East, not liberators or stabilizers. The US continues to insist that Iraq pass an oil bill that would allow international (ie American) oil companies to control the oil reserves in that country. Until the US stops doing that, American troops are going to be hated and shot at.

The US should definitely help negotiate a peace in Iraq (if we do it hoestly and not manipulatively). And it might make sense for there to be a United Nations military presence in Iraq. But US troops only serve to destabilize that country.

Chris, not only do we need to get the Democratic candidates to be clear about how many troops they plan to keep in Iraq, we also need to hear what they think about "American interests". Is our interest to support American oil companies or is it to help the people of Iraq? These two goals are incompatible and we need to hear which side the candidates are on.

I want a US government that supports freedom, liberty, and democracy around the world, not American oil interests and military domination of the Middle East. If we support freedom, liberty, and democracy, then most of the people in the world are on our side. If we support American oil interests and military domination, then most of the people of the world will be, rightfully, against us. The US needs to stop being a mlitary empire and get back to being a beacon of democracy in the world.

The American revolution and US support for the United Nations and human rights have demonstrated US progressive leadership in the world. But our militarist adventures to secure an American empire are not progressive and should not be supported. People who consider themselves progressive activists need to act like it and fight for freedom, liberty, and democracy, not "realistically" argue for empire.


by RandomNonviolence on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:43:54 AM EST

Question Chris. (none / 0)

Why will you still vote for Edwards in the poll if this is what you want to hear.  I am also hoping Richardson gets some traction, but he wont if so many people like what he says on all the issues but vote for Edwards or Obama because they are considered top tier.


by DocD on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:00:33 PM EST

This is a Significant Development (none / 0)

Chris, after listening to the forum last night, I actually woke up today with the thought of writing a diary on this very same subject (Richardson's statement)...only to find that you beat me to it!  I agree with you:  this is a very significant development in the race for the nomination.

One of the big headlines to come out of yesterday's forum should be:  "Richardson Fundamentally Disagrees with Clinton on Iraq."  

Hillary Clinton has made it clear that she intends to keep tens of thousands of US forces in Iraq during her presidency. In particular, in the recent Times article, she described her plan to continue occupying Iraq to accomplish six different missions:  

(1) Protecting United States and coalition personnel and infrastructure.
(2) Training and equipping Iraqi forces.
(3) Conducting targeted counter-terrorism operations.  
(4) Preventing the Kurds from gaining full independence. (Something that 90% of their people want.)
(5) Having a military force in Iraq large enough to "respond" to Iran.  (That will be a lot of troops!)
(6) Coming to the assistance of the Iraqi government if it needs help (Which...uh...is what we are doing now?)

In essence, Hillary Clinton has told Democratic voters that she will stay in Iraq indefinitely, with a sizable force, and use our bases in Iraq to intimidate Iran, control the Kurds, and battle Al Qaeda.  (I would say the estimated 75,000 troop number is probably a low number for her expressed mission.)  

Richardson, by contrast, has called for withdrawing ALL troops from the country, with no residual force whatsoever. Whoa! Night and day difference!  Richardson (yes, I know, like Kucinich) is now the polar opposite of Clinton on Iraq. They are book ends.

An additional wrinkle to note here:  as this profound disagreement gets more and more attention in the national media, it will eliminate the speculation about Richardson being a possible VP choice for Hillary Clinton.  Taking Richardson at his word on this serious issue...there is no way that can happen.


by Demo37 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:24:48 PM EST

Residual War Though? (none / 0)

I am sorry but this seems so simplistic to me.  So it's okay to keep troops in the region but not in Iraq?  If troops are in the region they are going to be engaged.  So he keeps the troops in Kuwait and Qatar, so it's okay to build permanent bases there, but not Iraq?  What do you think the troops are going to have to do to prevent that genocide or spill over from happening, that's right get involved in Iraq.  I have no doubts about Richardson diplomatic skills, but this move the troops to safety and Iraq goes away proposition is not realistic. I see this big parade of troops leaving in the light of day, only to be back in the dark of night.  The only difference is that the media spotlight will be gone, much like it is right now in Afghanistan, but the fighting, killing and dying goes on. I'll wait for the fine print on the this one.


by Kingstongirl on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:29:47 PM EST


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