Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq Disconnect

Ten days ago, Matt wrote the following:
Now, let's put aside the merits of this plan. I'm just really confused. How is it possible for a major party Democratic candidate to continually promise donors an end our involvement in Iraq while simultaneously proposing a plan that will keep us in Iraq?

All of the candidates to a greater or lesser extent are doing this same dance, so this isn't meant to pick on Clinton so much as it is to point out that there is a large, weird, and dishonest chasm between elites making policy and activists supporting political leaders. I don't get it.
Matt is absolutely correct about this disconnect. Democratic candidates are saying they will end the war, despite pretty much all releasing policy papers saying they will keep troops in Iraq. How are they able to get away with this seeming contradiction? Simple: it is because right now the public really does not seem to notice the difference, and progressive activists are complicit with maintaining this disinformation campaign. First, look at a recent poll that asks if people want "most" troops removed:
CBS News Poll. March 26-27, 2006. N=831 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4 (for all adults).

"Do you think the United States should or should not set a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq that would have MOST troops out by September 2008?"

Should 59%--37% Should Not
Now, look at another poll conducted during the same week that asks the public if they want "all" troops removed (emphasis mine):
USA Today/Gallup Poll. March 23-25, 2007. N=1,007 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Would you favor or oppose Congress taking each of the following actions in regards to the war in Iraq? How about...setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq no later than the fall of 2008"

Support 60%--38% Oppose
Public support for removing "most" troops and removing "all" troops is identical. Apparently, ending the war entirely and reducing it in size means exactly the same thing to the American public. It certainly seems to mean the same thing for many Democratic candidates.

The problem here is that the Overton Window on troop removal from Iraq is in a completely different location for the American public than it is for progressive policy elites. For the American public, it has long moved passed being unthinkable or radical, and also long moved past being merely sensible or acceptable. Right now, removing all troops from Iraq in the next eighteen months is extremely popular, as evidenced by the Gallup poll quoted above. By way of contrast, for progressive policy elites, the idea of removing all troops from Iraq remains staunchly entrenched in the "unthinkable" or, at best, "radical" phase of the Overton Window. Just witness the number of progressives who, in the comments to my post on last night, quickly labeled Bill Richardson naïve and / or "unserious" about Iraq and foreign policy. Of course, just yesterday, Richardson brokered a weapons inspections deal breakthrough with North Korea, and back in January he brokered a cease-fire in Darfur, and oh yeah--he was our ambassador to the United Nations. But now, since he is advocating total withdrawal from Iraq, suddenly Bill freaking Richardson is naïve and unserious about foreign policy. That people would react that way to a man with more foreign policy accomplishments than the entire US Senate combined tells just how abhorrent the idea of removing all troops is to many progressive policy types.

In this environment, Democratic candidates are faced with opposing forces pulling them in two different directions. On the one hand, ending the war in Iraq and removing all troops over the next year or so is quite popular nationwide, not to mention among the Democratic base. Thus, they all say they are going to end the war in Iraq when talking to the general public. However, this idea is still unthinkable to the progressive policy elites staffing think tanks, congress, and presidential campaigns, and so they release policy proposals that merely reduce the scope of US military involvement in Iraq, not end it. This situation in not going to change, and ending the war will always simply mean reducing the war, unless grassroots, progressive activists stop allowing their favorite candidates to get away with this contradiction, and unless at least one leading Democrat takes up that cause and starts calling out their colleagues on this contradiction.

In this situation, we, and by "we" I mean the progressive blogosphere, are part of the problem. Because we like Edwards or Obama, we have no problem letting them slide on this contradiction, which makes it impossible for us to credibly call out candidates like Hillary Clinton on the contradiction. Further, because no one is credibly calling out our candidates on this contradiction, to the public withdrawing most troops and withdrawing all troops remains identical. Thus, we are left in a situation where basically no one is articulating an actual end to the end in Iraq, even though most people believe quite a few candidates are doing so. And yes, we are allowing this to happen. We can't end this contradiction if we are complicit with it. That has to change.

P.S. As a final note, I know that even the Feingold-Reid bill calls for a residual American military presence in Iraq. However, Feingold has also made it clear on a number of occasions that he thinks even his bill does not go as far as he would like. Back when we were in the minority, Senator Feingold was extremely useful as pushing the Overton Window for many progressive ideas that were long though unthinkable by Democrats in Washington: opposing the Patriot Act, advocating for a timeline, censuring Bush, etc. However, we are not in the minority anymore, and Senator Feingold's place is no longer to push the Overton Window--it is to pass policy that succeeds in dealing with our immediate problem of drawing down the Iraq war despite Bush still being in office. By way of contrast, when it comes to our next choosing President, the debate in Democratic circles should not rest on war funding, stopping escalation, instituting timelines, maintaining troop readiness, or any of the issues surrounding Iraq that current Senators and members of Congress must deal with in the immediate future. By the time a Democratic President takes office, under a Democratic trifecta the issue is going to be over whether or not we maintain a residual American military presence in Iraq. Ofc ourse a Democratic trifecta will at least somewhat drawn down the war--but how far are we willing to go? It is on that issue where we need leading Democratic figures who can push our policy experts--and eventually all of our presidential candidates--to the same point in the Overton Window that the public arrived at a long time ago. And we need to support those figures when they step up on this cause. Lacking that, we will ultimately fail when it comes to ending the war in Iraq, even if we elect a Democratic President in 2008 and expand our majorities in Congress.

It cannot possible get anymore serious than this. A failure to end the war in Iraq under a Democratic trifecta will, by 2012, result in the greatest political disaster to befall the Democratic Party since 1968. Count on it. As a party, we can't run against the extremely unpopular Iraq war for three years, fail to end it when we are in complete control of the government, and not expect massive backlash.

Display:


Re: The Disconnect (3.00 / 1)

Bill Richardson has by far the most impressive resume of the candidates, Democrat and Republican.


by justinh on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:36:33 PM EST

Re: The Disconnect (none / 0)

No doubt about.  He is by far the most qualified person running based on his background and experience.  I think he is a sleeper candidate to watch.  The question I have about him is whether or not he has the candidate skills/charisma to win the election.  I have no doubt he would be a very good President.


by John Mills on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Disconnect (3.00 / 1)

"The question I have about him is whether or not he has the candidate skills/charisma"

Me, too.  I think his political skills are restricted to behind-the-scenes dealmaking and coalition-building, rather than being in front of of a camera or on the stump.


by justinh on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Disconnect (none / 0)

My gut is he will be our next Secretary of State, not President, but I could be wrong.


by John Mills on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He would also be a great VP choice... (3.00 / 1)

for any of the top three.


by rashomon on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He would also be a great VP choice... (none / 0)

Agreed.  I can't remember the last time the Dems had this many good candidates for President to choose from.  Amazing.


by John Mills on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Disconnect (none / 0)

Not a doubt that Richardson's resume is impressive -- and he said the magic words: "no residual force" in the MoveOn event.

However, he along with the rest of them, seems to believe the ultimate underlying folly that peace folks have to point out: that the U.S. is going to control what happens in the mess we've made of the Middle East. Ain't so, and any pol who hangs his future on the notion that the U.S. will control events is going to be in trouble.


Can It Happen Here?
by janinsanfran on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:31:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Disconnect Between Progressive Activists a (none / 0)

I disagree about the backlash part.  I suspect that if the war stuck around it would not hurt democrats that much.  While political operatives tend to care about this stuff the average person would probably care more about other things.

I agree with getting all the troops out, but wasnt the polling suggesting that democrats were voted in based on corruption issues?


by sterra on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:48:07 PM EST

Re: The Disconnect Between Progressive Activists a (none / 0)

Spot on, though I believe the debates will help push the top candidates, since there is a passionate and accomplished "second tier" of candidates who will have to create their niche to gain traction. Richardson, Dodd, and Biden all have foreign policy experience, and I'm sure they are more than a little frustrated at the media attention to the front 3.

I believe Obama or Edwards will soon realize the energy and determination of the base on the issue, and will pick up the mantle of representing "the Democratic wing of the Democratic party." I believe the one to do it will propel himself into the nomination.


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:55:23 PM EST

Interesting point... (none / 0)

because we had that dynamic last time...and it didn't work for Dean.  What's changed?


by rashomon on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting point... (none / 0)

None of the candidates is running against the party or media establishment.


by justinh on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting point... (none / 0)

What's changed is that we saw what happens when progressives sacrifice principle for electability... they are left with neither.

Maybe it didn't work for Dean because he didn't win the election, but I think Dean's ascendancy after the election shows that the Democratic party has drastically changed since 2004.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying that we had this dynamic last time... The top tier now seems much more progressive and impressive this time.

But maybe you mean that this strategy won't work for someone in the second tier to jump up, which I agree is unlikely, but I think Richardson hammering Obama, Edwards, and Clinton on Iraq will help move the top 3 in the right direction, much like Dean's campaign, which I believe, moved the party from favoring a Lieberman type candidate (we agree with Bush on the war, but we are better on other issues) to a Kerry type candidate (had anti war cred, but still a SERIOUS person)


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The overton window is overrated (none / 0)

sometimes reality is just reality.

I'll just keep posting this link.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid= -5308196622692748202

You folks keep worrying about the overton window.


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:08:09 PM EST

Dammit (none / 0)

And I'll just keep fixing the link.

LOL.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid= -5308196622692748202


by Stewieeeee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:09:23 PM EST

SInce Richardson has (none / 0)

pushed the Overton window to zero, the only way we can help him is by pushing the Overton troop levels negative. That means not only must all US forces be out but some Iraqi forces need to be based here.


Jeff Wegerson - PrairieStateBlue
by wegerje on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dammit (none / 0)

Thanks for that link.  


by LionelEHutz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dammit (none / 0)

Alternative energy is the only way out of the middle east without knocking our economy into a death spiral.


by fernacular on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Disconnect Between Progressive Activists (none / 0)

Let me take a shot at this topic.  Activists tend to see the world in a largely yes-no prism.  Policy wonks tend to see lots of maybes and have tendency to weigh (sometimes overweigh) pros and cons of decisions.  This is not necessarily a bad thing since we have a President who does absolutely no fact checking or introspection and look where that has gotten us.  However, it is one of the reasons activists tend to clash a lot with policy wonks.  

They both serve important purposes in the political process as activists can push the agenda but policy wonks can serve as a brake from extremes or unworkable solutions.  

I don't think the Richardson Iraq position is extreme or unworkable but I was trying to explain their differing roles as I see them and the conflict that arises.


by John Mills on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:13:14 PM EST

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit (3.00 / 1)

I would prefer that we disagree than that we march in lock goose-step like Republicans.

What bothers me more is that we barely work together even when we agree.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com


by Caro on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:17:38 PM EST

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq Discon (none / 0)

I think when all is said and done, when it comes to withdrawing the troops and ending the war, no one can really say what they will do.
we forget in our passion that we do not have a crystal ball.  we do not know what it will be like in a year or 18 months down the road.
We can demand this or that.  We can debate what should be done.  But, in reality it will take awhile to withdraw as there are things that happen before the first guys even begin to come home.
And by the time the whole thing is happening we have no idea what is going to take place in the middle east or the world.
All we should ask,is given the conditions now, how would they end this thing.
by vwcat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:18:13 PM EST

Re: The Disconnect (none / 0)

* We're in a f---ing stupid situation.

* Those new military bases in Iraq reflect deep-rooted geopolitical thinking from a military perspective.

* Iraq-ian, Iranian, Saudi Ariabian, Kuwat-ian, and UAE-ian oil flow issues have far deeper implications than most people realize (see theoildrum.com).

* The potential implosion that could follow complete American withdrawal with Syria, Iran, and Turkey moving in to fill the vacuum probably scares the sh-t out of them.


by Akonitum on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:18:21 PM EST

Re: The Disconnect (3.00 / 0)

The war is the biggest issue obviously, but there's a more fundamental change that needs to happen.  For the most part, I don't get the impression that candidates are being judged on what they would do with a supportive House and Senate.  More to the point, it's a matter not of navigating the politics of the entire country, it's about weilding the trifecta.

At the risk of straining a metaphor, it's similar to Bush after 9/11.  He had the entire country and the entire world ready to rally around him and do fantastic things.  He completely squandered it in every possible way.  Well, most likely, if we get a Democrat into the White House, it will be with the ability to do fantastic things in this country.  Who's going to have both the vision and the balls to do it?


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:18:42 PM EST

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq Discon (3.00 / 1)

I've been leaning Edwards so far, but since Richardson has said that he would not leave a residual force in Iraq, I'm going to have to look at him a lot more closely.  Sen. Clinton isn't getting a look from me and Sen. Obama, well I'll just say that he shows promise, but his constant use of the word 'bi-partisanship' in a beltway context bothers me a lot.  Also, the Obamatons, who take offense at any criticism of their candidate are not helping.  


by LionelEHutz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:23:59 PM EST

Is there any good (none / 0)

reason to leave non-combat troops in Iraq? Any reason that's acceptable to progressives?

I'm pretty sure that some progressives would says 'yes', and others 'no.'

I think Chris, though, is equating 'ending the war' with 'withdrawing all US troops, combat and support'. That's fine, that's his goal; it's not necessarily the goal of every other progressive, and saying that they're contradicting themselves because they have a different goal doesn't make much sense.

Perhaps the difference is this: Chris has internalized the lessons of the last few years better than others, who still have some level of reflexive trust in a US foreign policy (at least if led by intelligent Democrats). So if President Obama or Edwards or Dodd or Clinton decides that, after the complete withdrawal of combat troops, we need to keep a certain number of non-combat troops for whatever reason, these progressives are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think some of this either is, or is felt to be, a nod to pragmatism. We don't feel we know everything there is to know about withdrawing from Iraq, and we just think we've gotta trust someone else, with more access and information, at some point. So we say, 'close enough', and hope our trust isn't misplaced.

Oh, and what's Richardson's policy on non-military US gov't employees remaining in Iraq to complete certain missions? How acceptable is that?


by BingoL on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:24:03 PM EST

Re: Is there any good (none / 0)

The only troops that should be in Iraq are Marines guarding the US Embassy, as they do with our other embassies around the world.

I would consider that "completely withdrawing" if our only remaining military presence was at the embassy.


by libdevil on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq (none / 0)

I voted for Richardson in the MoveOn post-town hall poll.


by McFrederick on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:32:10 PM EST

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq (none / 0)

So did I.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the unreflective general public may be wise (none / 0)

in a sense we are not recognizing. Folks want the U.S. out of Iraq -- completely, I think. They want, as far as possible to forget there is an Iraq.

The pols can't forget there is an Iraq; they deal in policy, including energy, and in public pressures. So they think there are intermediate strategies that will let the U.S. lose a war and win it too.

The U.S. majority has accepted that we have to cut our losses, including even their dead relatives. When reality shows U.S. power in the Middle East collapsing, they won't be all that surprised. Reps will blame Dems; Dems will blame Bush. No policy will trump reality. I think the U.S. population at large has an inarticulate sense of this.


Can It Happen Here?
by janinsanfran on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:41:23 PM EST

Re: the unreflective general public may be wise (none / 0)

they can also be manipulated.

The simple fact is that the answer to the question about Iraq is dependent upon how that question is phrased -- and Democrats won't have control over all the questions that are asked.

We need to separate the policy from the politics here --- and we're far better off acknowledging that while we'd like all of our troops out of Iraq in a year, the policy has to be "all of our troops out of Iraq", and "in a year" has to be a goal that remains somewhat flexible based on the conditions in Iraq.


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris (none / 0)

With all the good that Richardson has said and done, why do you say you will again vote for edwards in the straw poll?  How is Richardson going to gain traction if everyone that likes him, still votes for Edwards or Obama?  I'm like you in wanting someone who will completely pull our troops out.


by DocD on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:44:46 PM EST

Iraq Disconnect (3.00 / 1)

rather than seeing the "backlash" as a problem of the progressive blogosphere, it might be better to recognize it for what it signifies --- the political untenability of an absolutist "no residual forces after one year" position.

I'm perfectly willing to entertain arguments advancing that position.   The problem is that if the very large chunks of the progressive movement that has opposed this war from the beginning questions whether its a realistic proposal suggests that its going to be extremely difficult to convince the overall electorate that the absolutist position is advisable.

No one knows what will happen in Iraq, and to say unequivocally AT THIS POINT that we would not provide some American troops for training and logistics for a SECOND year if we thought that it would result in a stable Iraqi government --- and that chaos would likely result absent that aid -- well, its just not smart politically.

As a goal, "no residual forces" is admirable.  As a political platform, its ill-advised at best, and possibly suicidal given the current political climate.


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:50:44 PM EST

Re: Iraq Disconnect (3.00 / 1)

Too late. The Gallup poll I quoted already showed 60% of the country in favor of it, before we even had this argument here. They are ahead of us on this one.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iraq Disconnect (none / 0)

Context, Chris, context.

The poll results you cite are a referendum on Bush's conduct of the war, and a reflection of the fact that most Americans don't trust Bush when it comes to Iraq.

it would be foolhardy to think that the electorate is not going to separate the 2008 GOP candidate from Bush  -- one indication of that is the huge difference between the "generic" presidential ballot, where the Dems hold a massive lead, and "head to head" polling numbers where Republicans-who-aren't-named-Bush are close to, if not ahead of, the named Democratic President.

And, assuming we're still in Iraq in 2008, the question is going to be "how do we best get our troops out of Iraq".... and the answer that most people will want to hear will be "as soon as possible while maintaining our national security" -- something vague and reassuring that cannot be criticized.  

And if the Democratic candidate is saying "We're out in one year regardless of the consequences" and the GOP candidate is saying "all combat troops out in one year, but we might need to maintain some troops for another year or two for training and logistics support to prevent chaos in Iraq" who is gonna sound better to the American people?


by plukasiak on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq... (none / 0)

I believe the progressive think tanks keep reminding our reps and senators about the reputation Democrats got after the Vietnam War. The public wanted out immediately and then the Democratic Congress cut funding and our army left. Then we lived with the "cut and run" tag for decades.


by joliepoint on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:51:22 PM EST

Excellent Post! (3.00 / 1)

This is one reason I haven't decided to endorse anyone.  I think Edwards' class-based oppositional approach is a much more realistic response to the political dynamics of the past 5-30 years than either of the other frontrunners.  But he's still at least partially stuck inside the Washington bubble with them when it comes to some issues, and this is the top of the list.

If nothing changes in the next several months, I may revert to supporting Kucinich, regardless of how "realistic" this may be.  Enabling confusion, bamboozlement, and Washingtonitis is not a perscription for the longterm health of our party.  Moral health precedes political health.

Richardson is to be commended on this.  I generally see him as too much of an insider--he could be a great Secretary of State, but I'd hate to see him calling the shots as President, because I think it would be a wasted opportunity for truly fundamental change.  But right here, right now, he gets it.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:06:34 PM EST

A Post Worthy of the So-Called MSM (3.00 / 1)

I have great respect for Chris as an activist and blogger, this post reminds me of the kind of thing I would read by some insider press "guru" of the so-called MSM.  Why do I say that.

First and foremost is the lazy "I'll try to be fair to everyone by equating everyone's position."  Ths fact is that the three front-runners DO NOT have the same position on Iraq and it is deceptive to imply they do.  Clinton advocates keeping US troops IN IRAQ to "fight al-queida," while Edwards does not.  I agree Edwards has not been clear whether he would immediately withdraw every american soldier or leave some for training, but what is absolutely clear is that he would end all Iraqi based combat activities.  PERIOD.

There is a HUGE difference between Edwards' position and Clinton's.  Clinton's advocating keeping US troops in Iraq to fight terrorists means that we will, literally, NEVER LEAVE because our very presence there attracts the terrorists to Iraq.  This is continuing our involvement as it stands right now, though perhaps at a lower level of troops.  Edwards position would, under the worst reading of his policy, only leave Americans to train Iraqis.  We do this type of work all around the world, including in countries that have on-going violence, in the Phillipines for example, and I have never heard anyone say that this type of work is somehow tantamount to us conducting a war in these countries.

Again, not to be personal to Chris because I really value what he has done, but this post-which lumps all the candidates together and does not take the time to, you know, actually accurately reflect what the various candidates' positions on Iraq really are, is just the type of work for which we criticize the MSM.  


Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:09:50 PM EST

Re: A Post Worthy of the So-Called MSM (none / 0)

I'm having a hard time seeing how Chris deduces that by "no residual force" Richardson means more than combat troops, but when Edwards says a full pullout of combat troops and no permanent bases, Edwards means we will stay in Iraq.  I think he's reading too much into the specific words they are saying.  It isn't clear to me what the meaning actually is.  I think Chris should ask for interviews to get some clarity from the candidates.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:19:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Post Worthy of the So-Called MSM (none / 0)

I agree.  And I just dont like his equating Clinton's position with Edwards.


Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:30:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Post Worthy of the So-Called MSM (none / 0)

I didn't say they all had the same plan--I said that they were the same in that they all advocated at least some level of residual military presence. In that respect, they are the same. I know that different levels of residual forces are being advocated, but it isn't my responsibility to detail the differences between everyone's plan in every post I make on Iraq.

And of course I am going to follow this up with reports from the different campaigns on the levels of residual troops in the country. But it is not like I am so all-powerful that I can get several presidential campaigns to report to me instantaneously. I'm working on it.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Post Worthy of the So-Called MSM (none / 0)

You Say: I know that different levels of residual forces are being advocated, but it isn't my responsibility to detail the differences between everyone's plan in every post I make on Iraq.  Rather then write a long post defending my original criticism, which I am tempted to do, I will just say that I think your later post gave a more fair and thorough analysis.


Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 05:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq Discon (none / 0)

I wrote a comment on this a bit ago, about how Kos's guy Schweitzer was saying the same thing - and he lived in Saudi Arabia for over 7 years.

Namely, that the "foreign policy establishment", progressive or not, except for the neocon hawks, are pretty united in saying that we need to stay in the region, maybe 10K to 30K troops in Iraq, or just right outside.

But, a good point, Richardson,the most accomplished foreign policy POLITICIAN, thinks we can take ALL troops out.

The real questions is, of course, WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO??

If we are a reality-based community, do we simply ASSERT taking all the troops out is the best thing to do?  Do we defer to the experts, who in this case, are the foreign policy progressive elites?

We defer to our SCIENCE elites, right?  Those who tell us global warming is real?  Why not the same on this??

I, for one, am not comfortable asserting a "faith-based" policy of 100% withdrawal, if the experts say "no"??

I mean, that's what I want, is a full 100% withdrawal.  

But what if that is not really what is RIGHT?


by jc on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:50:43 PM EST

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq Discon (none / 0)


Reading the comments here I have a feeling that many do not have a clear picture for how hopeless our position is in Iraq.  Right now we have only one of two choices: complete withdrawal (including our embassy) or a continuing US presence that will mean continuing war.  The passions our so high that any US target remaining in Iraq will attract insurgents.

It is not realistic in the slightest to think that we could retreat back into our fortified bases and take up defensive positions.  What self-respecting military commander would accept such an assignment.  Think about it. Passive defense without taking the action to your attackers.  Giving up the highways so that these bases would have to be resupplied by air.  Each base would just have to sit there and take incoming mortar and rocket fire.  What is the point?

I have no idea what will happen when we pullout completely.  There are many possible scenarios and I think that the worst case ones are quite possible.  This is just a measure for how hopeless our position is: we no longer have any control over what will happen when we leave.  The only decision we control is when we withdraw.


by syvanen on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:04:13 PM EST

Re: Progressive Activists Complicit in Iraq Discon (none / 0)

In this situation, we, and by "we" I mean the progressive blogosphere, are part of the problem. Because we like Edwards or Obama, we have no problem letting them slide on this contradiction, which makes it impossible for us to credibly call out candidates like Hillary Clinton on the contradiction.

"Does it hurt?"
"Only when I do this."
"Then don't do that."


by Silent sound on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:30:43 PM EST


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