National Polls, Fox Polls, and Obama's "Electability"

I have been relegating single national polls to Breaking Blue, but so many have come out in the last two days that it seems to justify a front-page post. For example, both CBS and Time have conducted national trial heats that only include Clinton, Obama and Edwards in the questioning:

Three-way national polling
Poll, Date CBS, 3/27 Time, 3/28 Time, 3/12
Clinton 36% 38% 42%
Obama 28% 30% 31%
Edwards 18% 26% 17%
National polls are sketchy to begin with, but these two polls commit the third of the three types of classic national trial heat blunders:
  • Pushing undecideds too hard;
  • Including candidates who are not running;
  • Not including candidates who are running (check).
Still, even with this flaw, the polls do show something of a pro-Edwards trend, where he has moved out of the low teens and probably into the high teens when all candidates are included. Clearly, this is as a result of the announcement that Elizabeth has cancer. The big question for Edwards is whether this bounce represents a more or less permanent lift into the high teens or low twenties, or if this is a temporary sympathy bounce. Others have noted that Obama has leveled off, but I'll wait another at least two weeks before agreeing with those assessments. Even if he has leveled off, it could easily be spun as solidifying his large February and March gains, which is hardly a negative considering how long we have left. As far as Clinton is concerned, she seems quite stable in the mid to high thirties range, as long as undecideds are not pushed (at which point so goes over 40%).

Opinion Dynamics also has a new poll out today. While it does have second place choices, it has not yet released results without Gore (they clearly have them, since they conducted second place choices, so I don't understand the hold-up). I would report on the poll more, but it occurs to me that the way Fox News uses a legitimate polling outfit such as Opinion Dynamics is almost precisely the same way they are using the CBC. A reputable pollster usually conducts polls for Fox in a professional manner, but occasionally Fox will stick in a ridiculously loaded question as a means of furthering their agenda. Thus, Fox is first seen as a legitimate news outlet for conducting solid, scientific polls, and then later on is able to use that perceived legitimacy as a means of giving more weight to their propaganda. In short, because of this, do not expect me to report much on Fox News polls in the future.

Apart from primary trial heats, another interesting development is how Obama continues to gain on Giuliani in head-to-head general election trial heats. He has been within the margin of error for some time, but the only two polls taken in late March (Time and Fox) show him down by an average of only one point. If Obama starts to pull ahead of Giuliani in trial heats, then look out. He already performs better, though only slightly, against the entire Republican field than any other Democrat. It really is too bad that, as The Politico, Nedra Pickler, James Carville and other center-right establishment types tell us, Obama's "inexperience" and "fluff" make him unelectable. Off-hand, and I write this as someone who donated $50 to John Edwards today (and $50 to Michael Nutter, and $10 a month for 18 months to the Progressive Patriots Fund--I did my Q1 donations today), I would have thought that the candidate who does best against Republicans, who has the highest favorable / unfavorable ratio of all Democrats, and who has the most people-powered activism behind him, is the most "electable." Oh yeah, and he has spent more time in elected office than either Edwards or Clinton, too. Unfortunately, the establishment has spoken, and "electability" will once again have nothing to do with actual facts until, over the next few months, the fact-less "electability" narrative ends up bending public opinion to its will.



Display:


Re: National Polls, Fox Polls, and (none / 0)

Polling doesn't determine electability, you know that: pundits do.

And I'm deeply disappointed in you, Chris, for donating $50 to Edwards today. You will never again write anything mildly critical of Obama without hearing about those fifty pieces of silver.

(And speaking of donating, if Obama is the first to refuse to participate in the FOX/CBC debate, he'll get a chuck of my change, and a big heap of my respect. And I'll stop wondering about his willingness to lead from the front, too.)


by BingoL on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 10:50:08 PM EST

Re: National Polls, Fox Polls, and (none / 0)

Well, more power to him to donate this early in the cycle. I won't bother until later on, when my opinion of who I'm backing is much more solid.


by PsiFighter37 on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:05:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls, Fox Polls, and (3.00 / 2)

I know some people will snipe at me for that, but I really don't care. If people don't get at this point that I like Obama, but right now I like Edwards more, that is their problem. If people don't get that when I criticize Democrats, it is meant to help them and never reifies Republican frames, that is their problem. And even if I was an Obama supporter, and donating to his campaign, people would still get mad when I criticize him. Just as people would criticize me if I called out Edwards, which I admit I haven't done much this cycle.

But that's the rub, isn't it? I haven't felt any real reason to call out Edwards. And that is why I support him right now. But it doesn't mean I don't like the other candidates, too.
by Chris Bowers on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls, Fox Polls, and (none / 0)

I am happy that a poll guru like yourself sees so many positives for Obama.  He not only has everyone's attention but is building a decent base of support that may suggest electability.  Cool.


by aiko on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls, Fox Polls, and (3.00 / 1)

I saw a poll where Obama slammed Thompson in head to head and Hillary lost to thompson.  hmmm.


by vwcat on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:24:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thompson (none / 0)

has 50% never heard of in the above poll.

they probably didn't tell voters he's the law and order guy


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:26:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls, Fox Polls, and (none / 0)

Well said, Chris.  I found Edwards to be right on the isuses I cared about.  And it is true, we do have good candidates.   Even Clinton.  She is too hawkish and corporatist for me, but better than a Republican.  


by littafi on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do Carville and other (none / 0)

Clinton supporters really want to make this primary about electability? Didn't think so.


by david mizner on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:38:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls (1.00 / 3)

Poor, poor, Chris.  You never do cease to promulgate the hatred of all things Clinton, all things seemingly "establishment."

So Senator Obama has spent more time in elective office?   This twisted reasoning, in which purely a local and state operative is somehow more qualified to be the next United States President, could only come from desperation.

It is painfully reminiscent of apologists for then Texas Governor George W. Bush in 2000.  He's more "likeable," proclaimed most of the pundits.

And heck, what if he hadn't been on the national scene very long (aside from the fact that he was a former President's son)?  So, said they--he's experienced.  Hasn't he had lots of business experiences (however unsuccessful)?  Hasn't he had lots of experiences with a baseball team?  He's got lots of local, hands-on experience!  Why, sure-as-shootin', they may call him Shrub, but he's got what it takes!

Six years later, the United States itself is dying, slowly, and most painfully.  His on-the-job training has meant the end of our fiscal solvency and the termination of long-held international alliance.

Yes, Chris, NATIONAL EXPERIENCE, most certainly does matter; it trumps any series of local and state wide elective offices.  You should know better.

We are asked to believe that this regional collective experience from Senator Obama somehow bests the international experiences of the former First Lady of the United States, and a supremely successful United States Senator from New York, which is a microcosm for the very world itself.

We are asked to believe that this experience somehow bests one of the finest of all trial lawyers, who overcome conservative tradition in his own Senate victory.  And who more importantly overcame the death of a son, and is even now overcoming the ongoing grave condition of his wife in combatting cancer.

I dearly love your candidate, Senator Obama--he is brilliant and a fine orator.

But he is not yet ready for prime time.

Skewering national polling, cherry-picking results that try to push him to the 30% figure when in fact in virtually every poll he is far below that, will not create for him any real inroads.

Senator Obama is a fine man.  But he has some growing up to do.

And so, dear Chris, do you, and many of your sympathetic fellow bloggers.


by lambros on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:01:45 PM EST

Successful. (none / 0)

    Clinton has been really tough on video game violence lately.  She hasn't been the prime mover behind any decent legislation at all.  She's past her prime.  Troll-rating for annoying condescension.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Successful. (none / 0)

You are probably not a parent. Most New York state parents know Hillary was instrumental in writing and getting the children's healthcare program (CHIP) passed. Just one example.


by meliou2 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:49:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls (none / 0)

What exactly has HRC done to make her any more experienced than Smirk?  What legislation has she introduced besides a new ratings system for video games?  She is playing off Bill like Smirk played off daddy.  What exactly has she done to promote progressive ideas?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Experience (if she had any) wouldn't help (none / 0)

unlikeable Hillary. Half of the electorate can't stand her, and that is before any Republican attack ads.

Obama is clearly more electable than Hillary, and so is Edwards. In every sense of the word.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 04:52:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience (if she had any) wouldn't help (none / 0)

If you read the Mystery Pollster's (Pollster.com) analysis of the Harris poll you would note that the 'never vote' question is not definitive. In one poll where all the front-running canditates were subject to this question Hillary got 44% and Edwards 45% - go figure. Furthermore, the Harris poll was an interactive poll, meaning voters were internet users only. Need I say more?


by meliou2 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:06:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience (if she had any) wouldn't help (none / 0)

Additional polls have found similar numbers of people (50%) who say that they would never vote for HRC.  see pollster.com


by aiko on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience (if she had any) wouldn't help (none / 0)

These were polls that did not include other candidates also. That was mystery Pollster's point.


by meliou2 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls (none / 0)

lambros,

Senator Obama has more "national experience" than four of our last five Presidents, including Hillary's husband. And anyway, you can't hold up her six years in the Senate as being so much more impressive than his two--the fact is they are both relatively inexperienced in national politics. The Republican frontrunner is even more inexperienced.

And no... she doesn't get any credit for having slept in the White House for eight years. Remember Bill Clintons first campaign? Remember how she was going to be the most active First Lady in history? Virtually a part of her husbands administration? Then she royaly screwed up the first (and only) job he gave her (health care) and that was it as far as her being anything in his administration other than First Lady. Experience at being 'decorater -n- chief' is not the same as experience being Commander -n- Chief.

Hillary is where she is today because she's riding her husbands coat-tails. Do you really think she would have had a chance at that NY Senate seat if her name wasn't Mrs. William Jefferson Clinton? But her husbands coat-tails will not stretch far enough to get her into the White House. She's going to have to do that on her own... and she's proving herself to be a very weak candidate. Ten months out and her lead (the last gasp of Bills coat-tails) is shrinking away. The air of inevitability, which is so crucial for her to win, is now gone.

I doubt she'll do even well enough to come in third. I support Obama, but I'll be happy with Edwards as a second choice.


by Mystylplx on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 01:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama appeals better to non-Democrats (3.00 / 2)

because he makes a strong push for bipartisanship and because he can preach to the religious Christians better than any other Dem (and maybe Repub) candidate. Edwards appeals better to Democratic activists because he's upfront and forthright about the traditional Democratic goals (Obama says similar things, but less often, and qualifies them with more uncertainty). Hence Obama polls better for the general, but you contribute to Edwards.  All's right with the world.


by curtadams on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:28:53 PM EST

Agree (3.00 / 1)

I like Edwards but I find Obama more convincing as a general election candidate. I know that Obama is 100% progressive - from reading his books and following his past - so I don't need red meat. And I'm not sure whether Edwards move to the right is fully genuine or a strategy to find a fraction that hasn't already chosen Hillary or Obama.

Obama is probably the most progressive in the field when it comes to actual convictions, but he may not use heated rhetoric. Indeed, sometimes he can be too cautious, I agree with his critics about that.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 04:56:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agree (none / 0)

"Edwards move to the left"... I meant to say


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 04:58:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National Polls (none / 0)

Good analysis, Chris.  The interesting thing to watch with Edwards is whether the increase is sympathy, in which case it may not last, or is because people are looking at him more with the added media coverage due to Eliabeth Edwards' health problems.  For a long time, the media narrative was Obama v. Clinton.  Now, there is coverage of three.

I also am happy you decided to give the Edwards camapaign a donation amd that you were open about it here.  The first, because I also have donated to Edwards and support him.  The second, because I like your honesty.  People can read what you write and evaluate in light of the knowledge of who you support and why.  It's fair.


by littafi on Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 11:50:44 PM EST

Defending 3- (or 4-) choice polls (none / 0)

By super-duper Tuesday, only people who've done really well in one of the early states will be able to even think about the nomination. Aside from the top three, only Richardson poses a threat to even qualify as a "top-tier" vote-winner in an early state, and even Gore has a better chance at that.

Before I thought of this, I agreed with your take on these polls wholeheartedly, but I think there's some value to a fair amount of polling along the following model: poll the early primary states including non-runners, and poll the nation providing response choices for any candidate (and only those candidates) who stand to do well in the early states.

If state-by-state polls should show that Al Gore (or Wes Clark, for that matter) has 2nd-place support waiting for him in Iowa and 1st-place support waiting in NH, while competitive in the rest, it's at least within the realm of possibilities that Al Gore will be competitive on Super Tuesday, while nothing in the world will make Chris Dodd viable.

Because of the changes in the primary schedule, we don't just have to poll the first two and guess blindly from there. We can instead poll the handfull of early states, and consolidate that information as a predictor of what will essentially be a national primary limited to the few major candidates. It's definitely shooting for a different kind of information, but as far as I can tell, it's the "who is poised to win, and how much" kind.


Progress is Personal | PCCC
by msnook on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:30:54 AM EST

Obama's "Electability" (none / 0)

Looks like several polls, and Edward's continued ability to raise cash via ActBlue, confirm my suspician of a "surge" from two days ago.

He has risen from the low teens to the upper teens, possibly the low twenties.  This actually is a surge.  Add to that the addition of Jim Oberstar to his endorsement roster, as well as a number of other progressives in Minnesota, and Edwards is having some hearty political times.

That said, I am still terribly nervous about the Q1 results.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:49:48 AM EST

Re: Obama's "Electability" (none / 0)

I hesitate to say it's been a good week for Edwards, because it seems in such poor taste given Elizabeth's health...but I agree, it's a clear surge.  Low teens in the national polls is just fine for him right now.  Don't sweat the Q1 numbers too much...Edwards will probably have a number around $12-15M, which is plenty to compete.  His strategy is all Iowa, which it should be.

Speaking as a Obama supporter, I'm glad to see a bit of the bloom off the rose.  It's a long campaign and Barack needs to be knocked around a bit so we can see if he's the real deal.  Besides, the rapid trajectory was getting scary...nobody's that perfect.


by rashomon on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 01:01:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's "Electability" (none / 0)

"Besides, the rapid trajectory was getting scary..."

So true.


by aiko on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:13:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, it's funny (none / 0)

all those commenters on My DD who as recently as three days ago were talking about Edwards's decline: where are they now?

That meme is dead; let's see what else they can come up with.


by david mizner on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:46:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

electability is an issue (none / 0)

the mainstream media should be talking about. Hillary Clinton is not even beating Fred Thompson in a general election matchup right now,this is good thing that the "frontrunner" the msm and dem establishment has annointed can't beat a republican half the counrty's never heard of, where's the articles about that,or that about half the country says they won't even consider voting for her. She has a serious electability problem and while issued are important, the most important thing or job that a nominee has to do is win the general election, democratic primary voters sometimes think they need to have the qualified person for the job instead of the best candidate for the job, that mentality is going to cost us the 2008 cycle if it doesn't change soon.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 02:10:37 AM EST

Exactly (none / 0)

Hillary is probably the least electable candidate in the field after Kucinich. I'd say Obama, Edwards and Richardson would all win in a general election. Hillary will lose badly. When will her supporters wake up to this fact?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 05:01:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

her supporters (none / 0)

on the net are informed.. but I'd venture that many of her voters outside the blogosophere are low information voters OR associate all the good things her husband did as her "experience" with none of the bad..

e.g. NAFTA, don't ask don't tell etc...


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: her supporters (none / 0)

Don't get carried away with self-congratulations of being so informed. According to Fox/OD recent poll only 4% of democrats read DialyKos (I suspect the same percentage or there about for MyDD).

This echo chamber has a limited following to date. Most others get their information from radio, TV, newspapers and weekly magazines.


by meliou2 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:21:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree on what Hillary's numbers mean (none / 0)

Between the two Time polls, there was really nothing that should have made Hillary's number's drop. But when Edwards gets a sympathy boost (and some more legitimate support from sympathy attention) half his gains (a significant jump!) come from Hillary's loss.

This does not show that Hillary has solid high-30s support. All it took was a little recognition and some positive personal emotional connection with another candidate and Hillary was a sitting duck -- name reco and the facade of an emotional connection are the only things Clinton has going for her (see: appeals to 9-11, Clinton-era nostalgia), and I see no evidence so far that there is a floor to how low her support will go (15%?) when other candidates start to develop that sort of relationship with the electorate.


Progress is Personal | PCCC
by msnook on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 07:52:55 AM EST

Chris Bowers Please! (none / 0)

I seem to awaken each day to yet another absurd, if not startling commentary about our Dem candidates.  Chris Bowers actually states that Senator Obama has spent more time in elective office than Hillary Clinton.  At the state level - yes; but let's actually observe what "all of Obama's experience" has provided him with.  

1.  After skipping the Carson City, Nevada forum, he did finally attend the Health Forum in Las Vegas the weekend before last. How did he do?  He sucked.  And everyone knows it.

2.  He did speak at the Firefighters Union Conference.  How did he do?  Lukewarm performance at best.

3. He did just speak at the union gathering in Washington this week.  How did he do?  Not great.

How did Hillary make out at all three events?  She brought the house down.  Why?  Because she understands policy; has worked on many of the legislative measures that are important to union members, across the board.  Because she has a kickass track record, that seems to be acknowledged by everyone but the progressive bloggers.  

Chris Bowers discards Hillary's senate record; and I don't mean from just her first term.  I mean her current term.  She is running for President AND doing impressive work in the Senate.  Should I list all of her accomplishments just for the month of March 2007.  On medical issues alone, there isn't another candidate who can compare.

And yet there are folks right here in this discussion who seem to believe that the only thing Clinton has done is related to video games. What a pathetic display of ignorance. There are many flavors of koolaid.  Chris Bowers is pushing one of them.


by marasaud on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 08:13:22 AM EST

Re: Chris Bowers Please! (3.00 / 1)

Exactly my thoughts here.


by meliou2 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chris Bowers Please! (none / 0)

Hillary's supporters don't drink her brand of Kool-Aid?

Goodness me! I'm already dreading 2008 and it hasn't even started yet.


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 10:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Cheney has higher approval than Bush (none / 0)

I wonder why they poll approval for Moveon.org and for Sandy Berger.


by mihan on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 09:43:38 AM EST

Re: Cheney has higher approval than Bush (none / 0)

Fox News and the right-winger radio talk shows are trying to provide back-up for their upcoming smears of moveon.org and past Clinton man Sandy Berger. Did you notice in the poll question the word 'left-wing' embedded. It was a pathetically leading question. So obvious!


by meliou2 on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Media narratives are in final analysis a racket (none / 0)

I know I'm just stating the obvious, but the ultimate purpose of the media's trying to bend public perception to a narrative is self-serving - it's to perpetuate the talking heads' own influence and life style. I wonder whether there's anything we the netroots can do to force or foster an evolution of current journalism  - anything we aren't doing already.


Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!
by brainwave on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 10:10:51 AM EST

Edwards Electability (none / 0)

Edwards is too inexperienced to be electable. He looks good on TV but he is just all fluff and no substance.

Dean is just not electable. He is just too angry, and he is just too outspoken.

Kerry is just not electable. He is just too much of a flip-flopper.

Hillary Clinton is just not electable. She is just too disenguous and everyone's already made up their mind about her.

Bill Richardson is just not electable. He just doesn't have enough money.

Barack Obama is just not electable...
[fill in the black]

-=-

Meanwhile on the right... thank heavens for such strong national security ...


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:12:51 PM EST


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