Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Problem?

I hate the concept of "electability," but numbers like these are cropping up for Clinton in more and more places (see Marist and Rasmussen, for example). If 50% of adults of voting age say they won't vote for a candidate, that candidate will have difficulty being elected nationwide. Granted, these numbers can be moved because we are very far from the election. Further, the poll was of adults of voting age rather than registered voters, and it doesn't take into account the odious Republican she might be running against if she were to become the Democratic nominee.

However, one does have to wonder if Clinton has a serious possibility of winning against any Republican nominee except via a total squeaker. Yes, she can still win, but there does not seem to be a big margin of error for Clinton. This is frustrating, because we are in a moment of strong Democratic performance across the board. In many ways, we are still facing residual problems from our political defeats and lack of political infrastructure during the 1988-2004. Back then, Republicans were regularly able to slime any prominent Democrat to no end while simultaneously leaving themselves with several prominent, well-liked spokespeople (such as McCain and Giuliani). I know that any Democratic nominee will face this slime machine, and as a result might very well run into the problem Clinton currently faces--or worse--not far down the road. That is always one of the dangers with looking at horserace polls as a means of determining "electability," because the election is so far away that for many potential Democratic nominees the slime machine has not yet acquired him or her as a target. For example, remember when we were all told that Kerry was the most "electable," because in January and February he comfortably led Bush in polls and even Republicans wouldn't dare attack a decorated war veteran? It certainly did not work out that way, and throughout 2006 Kerry performed worse against Republicans in hypothetical trial heats than did Clinton.

I'm not going to deny that I am participating in an anti-Clinton electability narrative by putting up this post, no matter how many qualifiers I sprinkled throughout the piece. This does not alter my firm belief that every declared Democrat, with the possible exceptions of Gravel and Kucinich, can win the general election (notice that even for those two I wrote "possible exceptions"). However, I am also not going to deny the desire for a little electability tit-for-tat, since the same establishment that backs Clinton was able to take down Dean, even before the "scream," on attacks largely predicated on the concept of "electability." In the end, I justify this somewhat mild questioning of Clinton's ability to win the general election because I don't want to see the progressive movement become a bunch of pushovers in important Democratic primaries. If our candidates can get taken down based on "electability," while establishment candidates receive a pass on the concept, then we will have ceded an important strategic position. The ideal would be that concepts such as "electability" are thrown out altogether, but that is not going to happen in the next nine and a half months. While I worry that engaging the primary candidates on these terms could end any hope of removing electability from the primary equation down the road, I am also under no illusions that in the meantime numerous progressive House and Senate candidates will be crushed and dismissed when they are pinned with the dreaded "unelectable" label. In fact, Clinton's surrogates have already begun to play the electability card themselves.

Hillary Clinton has much higher negatives than Edwards or Obama. Take that for what it is worth, which might not be very much. There is an old "rule of fourteen," that some say applies to the Presidency, where if someone has been prominent in the national political scene for longer than fourteen years, it becomes virtually impossible for that person to win the Presidency due to established, negative preconceptions surrounding that person. This would apply to the current difficulty Clinton faces is overcoming long-term, and now fairly static, negative preconceptions. She can definitely still win in a general election, but because of her well-established national image she might face more difficulty than other potential Democratic nominees. That is dangerous during an election where we have the potential to solidify a pro-Democratic realignment.

So, there is that. I feel dirty. Politics will do that to you sometimes. What is that line from Wordsworth in The Prelude, about French revolutionaries becoming the tyranny against which they were fighting? Maybe in this instance, it applies to me now. Feel free to trash me in the comments.

Further caveat: It turns out that the Harris poll which started off this entire discussion was an online poll, which gives it a higher range of error than other polls:
This Harris PollŪ was conducted online within the United States between March 6 and 14, 2007, among 2,223 adults (aged 18 and over).
I think that goes a long way toward explaining why Clinton's "won't vote for" numbers are about seven or eight points higher in this poll than in other polls. It also seems impossible that the "won't vote for" numbers among those over 62 years of age are a stunning 69%. Among all other age groups, the "won't vote for" numbers are in line with other polls. Methinks there is something way, way off about the senior citizen online sample in this poll.

Even with all of the qualifiers I through in, I probably should have looked closer at the poll before blogging about it. And Matt is probably right anyway: "electability" is never actually defined by numbers, at least in the way the establishment uses the term. .



Display:


Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (3.00 / 2)

Electability is a valid concern.

You don't hate the concept, you only hate the way it has been communicated. The key is not to try and convince people to nominate losers, the key is re-frame electability away from the DLC monopoly that the term is synonymous with blow-in-the-wind-corporate-wanker.


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:32:41 PM EST

electability was misdefined in 2004 (none / 0)

kerry was the Resume candidate...

people could care less about resumes
compare Gore to Bush junior
  Or Reagan to Carter - reagan was an actor and poor governor, carter was an engineer on a nuclear sub...

it's who do people THINK will work for them


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: electability was misdefined in 2004 (3.00 / 1)

electability shouldn't be about resumes

You just proved my point. And your final line was a great one-liner for why Hillary has an electability problem.

Until electability is redefined (which is possible, see last year's Montana senate primary), we will get wanker candidates. What the word should mean isn't the problem, it is what the DC types think the word does mean.


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (3.00 / 1)

I agree with blogswarm.

I don't think the concept of electability is in itself something we shouldn't consider.  I certainly consider that when choosing someone in a primary - if I don't think someone can get elected, even if I like that person's positions on the issues more, I'm not going to supprt him/her.

The problem is in how "electability" is defined.  To the establishment types, "electability" means "moderate/DLC/able-to-appeal-to-Fox-News -types/resume".  Our job shouldn't be to eliminate the concept of electability, but rather discredit its current definition, and make it something more accurate (perhaps by citing factual data like poll numbers and such, or by citing examples where the perceived "electable" candidate lost, and the perceived "unelectable" candidate won).


Rudy Giuliani hates firefighters. And puppies.
by Fran for Dean on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's okay Chris (none / 0)

Hillary's slogan "In it to win it" is solely designed to rebut the memo that she is unelectable in a general election.

It's okay to put in writing what her pollster already knows.

Negatives for Hillary, Edwards, and Obama will all move in a general election - but move worse....for all.

Tweety has been the only one in the MSM talking about this "lurking out there deep in the ocean, that will come out against her after she's the nominee".

watch this and think of what's ahead if she's the nominee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQm Xs


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:36:47 PM EST

Re: It's okay Chris (3.00 / 1)

Edwards' numbers are pretty good considering he's already been slammed by the GOP machine as a VP candidate...


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's okay Chris (none / 0)

Actually, Hillary's "in it  to win it" sounds like a rip off of the longstanding slogan of the NY lottery, "You have to be in it, to win it."


by David Kowalski on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's okay Chris (3.00 / 0)

odds of success for Dems are about the same


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary ? (3.00 / 1)

great post Cris, democrats had better wake up soon, the big money people and politicians are trying to steamroll a nominee on us who half they country has already said they will not vote for no matter what. I don't care that we feed into an anti-Clinton narrative laid out by the gop, does anybody think that Hillary gets any voters that wouldn't already vote Democratic no matter who the nominee is? She is the most "qualified in the race" I agree, she also is the best with specific proposals to Dem leaning interest groups. That said, Phil Angelidis was great at that too, as were  most of our democratic loser nominees of the last half of the 20th century, considering how unpopular Bush is her general public numbers ARE UNBELIEVABLY BAD for the frontrunner of the opposition party, she really can lose to the party of GW Bush do to her own personal negatives, atleast when Kerry lost Bush was at about 50% which is about the % of votes he recieved, now Bush is at 33 and CLINTON  the well known leader of the opposition is losing to most GOP candidates with about half of Americans saying they would never voter her. Nominating her is the definition of political insanity and those leading the money and inevatabilty bandwagen from politicians to dem interest groups are commiting political mal-practice and suicide.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:40:53 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary ? (none / 0)

General elections are binary elections with one personality against another. There is the Democratic convention and debates. Hillary can hold her own and do the same to sway voters in the same way she did in New York. I used to think she was stiff and not inspiring until I saw her in town hall settings in Iowa and New Hampshire, at the fire fighters union gathering and at the healthcare forum in Nevada. She has it.


by meliou2 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary creates serious problems for the party. (3.00 / 3)

The MSM already has defined Hillary as a "liberal" even as she tries her best to triangulate appear "moderate." That drags the entire debate to the right, and lets the MSM paint progressives as extremists.

Hillary also motivates the far right like no one else. Voting against her might be the only reason a significant number of Republicans would show up to vote for a Giuliani or McCain. That also would obviously hurt Democrats in every other race.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:42:27 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

These types of negatives go with the territory of anyone who may become the Democratic nominee. Before the 2004 election Kerry's negatives became astronomical as high as 45% to 46% in some polls.

Obama's negatives are climbing fast and do not lack much to catch up to Clinton. In Rasmussen there are now 37% of voters who definitely will not vote for Obama in the general election. Considering that most voters do not yet know much about Obama his numbers may be as high or higher than Clinton by the first primary vote.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Politica l%20Tracking/Presidential%20Match-Ups/Ma rch%202007/McCainvs.Obama20070320.htm


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:44:39 PM EST

Opinions on Hillary will be hard to change. (none / 0)

Views of Edwards and Obama are not nearly as hardened.

Which candidate can best define himself rather than allowing the RWNM to do so? I think the Edwardses have recently demonstrated a very impressive ability to define themselves, under very difficult circumstances.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:57:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opinions on Hillary will be hard to change. (none / 0)

They will be hardened for any nominee by election day. There is not much that can be said about Clinton that has not already been said. No one has ever put Obama through the same scrutiny nor to some extent has Edwards been through that.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary's problem is that it's too late. (none / 0)

Opinions about her already are hardened in a negative way. The RWNM doesn't need anything new to trash her with (although that can't be ruled out) as they can just recycle the old, and it will reinforce general public opinion.

Edwards and Obama still can positively define how the public views them.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (3.00 / 1)

His favorables also went up Rob.... forgot to mention that.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's Electability (none / 0)

Of course she has an electability problem, but so does Obama... Obama is trailing badly in all states that matter right now... And he does worse than Hillary in national matchups against Rudy or McCain... Edwards is probably the only electable Democrat at this point.


by AustinTexas on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:52:18 PM EST

Explain this... (none / 0)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news /1805898/posts

I discount all statements of "they are the only one who can win."  Unless we are talknig about Hillary.  She is the only one who can unite the GOP base.  


McCain/Palin: Old and inexperienced
by cspanjunkie on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Electability (3.00 / 1)

obama does MUCH BETTER against all GOP candidates than Clinton..but we are still a year out..IMHO, Clinton's negatives will only go higher

http://rasmussenreports.com/Political%20 Tracking/Presidential%20Match-Ups/2008De mocraticPresidentialMatchups.htm


by dantata on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:02:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Electability (none / 0)

Which are the states that matter?  Because of the ones I feel that matter, I'd say you are nuts.  So I am curious to hear your criteria.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards' latest favorability numbers even better. (none / 0)

The latest USA Today/Gallup poll (March 23-25) has Edwards at 55% favorable vs. 25% unfavorable, up from 51% vs. 28% on March 2-4. The recent media coverage (Katie Couric notwithstanding) likely pushed these numbers in the right direction a little bit.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:54:01 PM EST

Re: Edwards' latest favorability numbers (3.00 / 1)

those are impressive even at his worst his unfavorables in Oct. 04 were not bad

.  John Edwards

     Favorable     Unfavorable     Never  heard of     No opinion

2007 Mar 23-25     55     25     8     11

2007 Mar 2-4     51     28     9     12

2007 Feb 9-11     49     31     12     8

2004 Oct 9-10     48     37     6     9

2004 Sep 3-5     56     30     3     11

2004 Aug 23-25 ^     52     28     4     16


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Wow... 59% think Dems investingating Gonzo to gain political advantage... that's disheartening.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

More than electability, these sorts of numbers touch upon another concern.  Hillary Clinton is not going to be a realigning candidate.  The chances of her either mobilizing or converting significant numbers of new Democratic voters is exceptionally unlikely given her already high negatives and her clear attachment to her husband.


by LPMandrake on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 03:54:22 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

LP - great comment.  I think that the Repugs have screwed up so badly that we'll win the presidency no matter who wins the nomination.  That said, I agree that Hillary would screw up our chance at realignment.  We need to choose the nominee that best shares our values and would move forward a Democratic and progressive realignment.  Hillary Clinton is NOT that candidate.


by econlibVA on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Clinton is already attracting young women a group that has not been politically active. Some articles have suggested as many as 10 million young women may vote in 2008.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:14:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Shouldn't Edwards and Obama do the same, outta sheer gorgeousness? Hell, Stephanie Herseth was the Queen of dKos for a few months.


by BingoL on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Stephanie is gorgeous.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Really?  She's ok compared to most politicians, but I wouldn't use the word gorgeous.  Classy and elegant sure...


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fun with numbers (none / 0)

Another way to look at this:

The anti-Hillary Clinton numbers are probably not going to get any bigger. Her running against Giuliani (please, God, make it so.) or Gingrich (please, God, make it so!) or Brownback (please, God, I beseech you, make it so!) or any of the others in the current crop of republicans will probably make those negative Hillary numbers decrease.

In the over fifteen years of assault and labeling by the "vast right wing conspiracy" Hillary Clinton has been inoculated against almost everything by the outrageousness of their claims. What more can they do to her?

I supported Howard Dean in 2003-2004. I came to admire and support John Kerry in 2004. John Kerry wasn't inoculated against the assault by the swift boat liars - hence, their outrageous claims stuck.

Whoever is the eventual nominee will have to deal with the "Mighty Wurlitzer". I'll support anyone who can and will take them on and bloody their over reaching fascist noses.

There is the added benefit of watching right wingnut heads explode all over the country if Hillary wins the nomination and/or the election. Heh. I can hear the constant pop popping even now.  


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:00:26 PM EST

I listen to winger shows (3.00 / 1)

so you don't have to.

just today a caller said he's too christian to vote for Giuliani.

The sit in host for hannity said but you can't put "that witch" in the whitehouse.

he said he'd vote 3rd party or stay home...

for other republicans "that witch" will be just enough to vote for a republican


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I listen to winger shows (none / 0)

...he said he'd vote 3rd party or stay home...

That's my favorite type of wingnut.
543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 06:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fun with numbers (none / 0)

Of course the fact Kerry didn't respond to the swifties for a month didn't have anything to do with it sticking... I seem to remember a poll saying that they didn't believe what was said, but the lack of a response made them less likely to support Kerry.

Plus we don't know if there are additional things that have happened over the last 7 years that are causes of concern.  Bill;s character will be called into question just as much as HRC's... another affair or something of the sort might hurt her even more.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Any well known Democrat will have high negatives. Those negatives are manufactured. We have to find a way around that.

Even if we go with someone like Obama, who does not presently have high negatives, by the time of the Democratic convention he will have high negatives. They will be manufactured.

All the same, let's not nominate Hilliary.


by Alice Marshall on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:02:07 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

you might have missed this upthread from MeanBone's link but Edwards favorable/unfavorables were NEVER as bad as Hillary's even in 2004

.  John Edwards

    Favorable     Unfavorable     Never  heard of     No opinion

2007 Mar 23-25     55     25     8     11

2007 Mar 2-4     51     28     9     12

2007 Feb 9-11     49     31     12     8

2004 Oct 9-10     48     37     6     9

2004 Sep 3-5     56     30     3     11

2004 Aug 23-25 ^     52     28     4     16


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Are you working for Edwards?


by bsavage on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no I just have the (none / 0)

ability to click on the link that Mean Bone provided..

although I wish I was working for Edwards


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:37:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Honesty and Narratives (none / 0)

I am no fan of Hillary Clinton, but I am reminded of Audre Lorde's famous line, "You can't dismantle the mater's house with the master's tools."

You are perpetuating the "electability narrative" with this article, and at least 50% of the participants in any narrative complain about the constructed narrative while continuing to construct it because they feel like they must respond in kind.  It's an inability to see an advantage by turning the other cheek.  It's a concession to human nature that we must have the last word.  It is natural to want the last word, and it is natural to respond in kind.  What is unnatural is to argue against a narrative while keeping it alive.  Be who you are.  Respond in kind, if you like, to any narrative you like.  But, please be honest.  Politics is about constructing narratives. It is certainly not about finding truth.  


"ex nihilo nihil fit"
by Lassallean on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:04:55 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Of course she has an electability problem.  Is this news?  People don't like her, and they never will, despite the fact that she's an incredibly nuanced and accomplished Senator.  At the bare minimum, I think we need a candidate people will like.  That is a valid concern.

The one upshot of having a primary season that's started about 27 months too soon is that it has given us all time to identify and coalesce around the Anti-Hillary.  For me, that's Obama.  But we better hurry up before the Clinton juggernaut gets out of control.


"Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat." - William Sloane Coffin, Jr.
by Nasara on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:05:52 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

you nailed it, the mintue Hillary wraps up the nomination the republicans are going to have an extremely powerful talking point, Isn't 16 years of Bush and Clinton enough? Obama very carefully needs to make some of this an issue in this race.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dems are gonna win (3.00 / 1)

The most instructive lesson from all this polling is that the republican almost NEVER gets above 48%.  That includes Rudy who hasnt had his massive amount of dirty laundry and ill-temper shown to a national audience. Im normally pessimistic, but I can't see a way we lose with any of our three.

Hillary would win but it would be just slightly bigger than Bush in 2004.  The reason everyone was. and alot still are, excited about Obama is that he has landslide potential.

check out this summary of polling to show the cap on surrent republican candidates...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/national.html


by jmotoole on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:13:02 PM EST

Re: Dems are gonna win (none / 0)

I said the same in 2000 and 2004... and that was with far less time on the clock.

2000 we got screwed, but it shouldn't have been that close.  

2004 Kerry got screwed and didn't fight back.  

Anything can happen between now and then... still need to work our asses off.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let us minimize electabilty discussions (none / 0)

As much as I dislike Hillary's candidacy, I think the only time I will approach her electability is when her fans bring that up to dismiss other candidates.

Other than that, let us see who will be the best leader. Narrow it down. The time for polls and electability should be a year down the road and we have two close candidates.


by Pravin on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:14:30 PM EST

Re: Knees going wobbly? (none / 0)

Chris, calm down. Your initial reaction to the polls is understandable but Hillary is not going to run against herself and I hope it's Rudy. Let's say it's Rudy, he's not even winning against Hillary in New York, a state where they are both well known. How much more in a general election when both will be open to attacks and counter attacks. Hillary is likely to improve her standing and Rudy to decrease.


by meliou2 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:20:51 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

It was leaked that in private conversations, Sen. Clinton was most worried about making it through the Democratic primary and thought the general would be easy compared to it.

You never know the agenda of people who leak stories like that, but I think in this instance it makes sense.  I always thought the only thing that would stop Sen. Clinton from running is if she thought she couldn't win.

I would guess there have been very careful and pretty accurate analyses within her operation to judge, state by state, of her road to victory.

National polls are so easy to throw around but they mean almost nothing, either in the primary or the general because we don't have national elections -- our nation wide elections are a collection of individual states (it's obvious, I know).

Instead of focusing on nationwide negatives, I would say, look at the map.  Where does Sen. Clinton pick up?  Where might she drop off?  She has been doing so well on the campaign trail I think there is a good argument she could pick up in the few swing states she would need to.

Now, would she build a major coalition?  Would she hurt down ballot races?  Would she polarize the country?  Would her victory embolden a centrist wing of the party whose vision has run its course, and who will lead to long term Democratic minorities?

Those are all interesting and good questions, but they ultimately don't weigh on whether she is "electable."  That is a very simple, state by state look.


by rcipw on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:26:32 PM EST

that was true against McCain (none / 0)

who looks near campaign death.

Giuliani's horrible spousal issues are nullified by Hillary's

and fred thompson is an actor and would have a reagan factor going.

Hillary's memo you're mentioning is no longer operable because it probably did not foresee McCain tanking so hard


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, Guiliani is the perp (none / 0)

Hillary is the wronged woman. Relationship issues will very much favor her if that's the match. Hillary could play a very strong "family values" card against Guiliani.


by curtadams on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No popular vote for Prez (none / 0)

That's what I was going to point out.  We don't elect Presidents by popular vote.  This polls need to be looked at by state not the entire country.  Maybe 80% of Texas hates Hillary.  That offsets other states that might be 55% in favor of Hillary.  Conversely, maybe New York and California love Hillary at 75% which means her numbers are far worse elsewhere.  Just looking at the number of people who won't vote for her under any circumstance doesn't give a complete picture.  Are those people distributed so that there are enough to keep her from getting 270 electoral votes?


by msstaley on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 07:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes. hillary has an electability problem. (3.00 / 1)

And with her as the nominee, down ballot democratic candidates will also have a problem.

And her last name in the general election will also be a liability- not because people like or dislike Bill Clinton.  I think voters will be averse to only electing presidents with the last name of Bush or Clinton.

This is, of course, just my opinion.


d
by d on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:27:44 PM EST

Re: yes. hillary has an electability problem. (none / 0)

I know I am.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

You know how in some elections you think the tide is turning and you wish that you had a few more days or a few more weeks.  Well, this election ain't gonna be like that. We have enough time to beat the 'establishment' candidate--the one everyone thinks is the sure thing, or the safe bet. As we all know the sure things and the safe bets don't always bring home the WH.

If we can't beat Hillary in a year of pre-primary politics then she deserves to be president.  But until then I think Edwards and Obama supporters should bind together and kick her ass.


by aiko on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:33:06 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

This is one of the most important things I've read here since Bowers threw down on Roemer.


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (3.00 / 1)

I think you are seeing it more on here... there are a couple of people on both sides still acting like assholes, but lately there seems to be less sniping at each other and more going after Hillary... I have been trying to do that and have seen it in several others... Vox, Tarheel, etc.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:37:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

So if Gore runs, where does that leave him.  Afterall he is a rule of 14 candidate... does that mean he would be unelectable?


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:33:50 PM EST

Re: (none / 0)

Gore has a lot of negatives in some polls.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

"I'm not going to deny that I am participating in an anti-Clinton electability narrative by putting up this post, no matter how many qualifiers I sprinkled throughout the piece."
---------------------------------------- --------
Wow, how very intellligent! I think I missed the hattip to FOXNEws and Redstate.  

by bsavage on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:39:46 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (3.00 / 1)

If you don't think it's a problem that half the country says they will never vote for her, you're in denial. She may not be getting a fair shake but her numbers are what they are and outside of established democratic circles she goes over about as well as lead paint.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Obama has 37% who will not vote for him and that is with low name recognition. As his negatives rise he will have about as many who will not vote for him as Clinton. The same would be the case with any Democrat who is the nominee.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No it would not (3.00 / 1)

Hillary has a personality problem, she comes across as cold, aloof and calculating. People do not want to have a beer with her, and so she can't win. I am serious. That's the nature of American voters, and we should adjust to it.

Heck, I find Hillary supremely unlikeable even though I am a partisan Democrat.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:08:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Likeability (none / 0)

Hey, I like Hillary's persona. She's smart and knowledgeable, and I'd like to hang out with her or at least go to dinner with her.

But I'm not going to vote for her in the primary because other candidates better reflect my priorities.


by joyful alternative on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 10:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

Experience is the new electability.


by Matt Stoller on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:44:58 PM EST

Run as an outsider (none / 0)

against the DC establishment - which Hillary is..

also,, any bad thing Bill did is Hillary's too -- it's only fair if she gets the credit.

don't ask don't tell for starters,

NAFTA and free trade to follow up


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Run as an outsider (none / 0)

Clinton met with the Human Rights Campaign and promised to change the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. Like most other Democrats, Clinton also supports fair trade. I know you hate her but some of the stuff you say is flat out inaccurate. Clinto has never said that she supports permanent bases and most Democratic plans for ending the IRaq war call for a small military force to help the Iraqis. No one is saying she is Russ Feingold, but she sure as hell ain't Joe Lieberman!!


by bsavage on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 06:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Absolutely (none / 0)

Well said, Chris.

I said something to the same effect over at the orange d***'s place a few months ago, and got shouted down by intelligent commenters, but still: Winning is more important than anything else, esp. this time around, and you've got to nominate the candidate who can do it, and have coat-tails while doing it.

As an outside observer I think it very clear that Edwards has the best chances in the general, for various reasons. Some very good reasons (support for universal health care, care for the working class and the poor, real and honest turn-around on Iraq, respect for bloggers and net-roots, early support for Lamont), and some not so good (southern, good-looking, white male in his fifties).

But, regardless of that, low-information voters, who actually decide elections, will vote on the untangibles, the perceptions. They go for the "truthiness", with their stomach. I don't see how Hillary, or Obama, can compete in that respect.


by PoliticGeek Pro on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 04:55:04 PM EST

I agree, winning is the most vital thing in '08 (none / 0)

I barely care about, or pay attention to, issue differences between our candidates. IMO it's all about electability. Get a Democrat in there and I'll take my chances.

Edwards was clearly the most electable in '04 vs. an incumbent. I never understood arguments to the contrary for more than a year leading up to that election, even when Edwards was stuck at 2%. I still think it's true in '08.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned in this thread: Doesn't ANY woman have an electability problem in a national election right now? I think so, and that's my reason for preferring someone else to get the nod, far above Hillary's poll standings or that 46% number. I know plenty of backwards white males who frequent Nevada sportsbooks daily, and they tell me they're not voting for a woman for president, period.

We just had a cycle in which many female congressional nominees disappointed in tossup races, for whatever reason. Plus I watched a female Democratic gov nominee with electability issues lose by 4 points to an absolute buffoon here in Nevada. I like to gamble with the edges on my side. Nominating a woman in 2008 doesn't seem to fit.


by Gary Kilbride on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 03:12:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is the second strongest argument against (none / 0)

Hillary except for her wrong positions on the issues.

She will absolutely KILL our chances in 2008, and I am not just talking about the presidential election.

So we must stop her - the sooner the better. I am willing to support either Obama or Edwards, depending on who is closest to beat Hillary. We should make a deal among the netroots to all get behind the candidate that is closest to beat Hillary in January next year.

Stop her, please, before she sinks our party.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:12:39 PM EST

Re: This is the second strongest argument against (none / 0)

bingo! If I thought for a second Edwards had a better chance to stop Hillary than Obama, I would support him, but Edwards simply doesn't have the star power or demographics among dem primary voters to beat Hillary. Dems simply are not going to nominate the while male in a year where the first credable woman and black candidates are running,Obama can put together a base of young energetic supporters, liberals and african Americans who would have normally went to Hillary to win the nomination, with Hillary's endorsements, money, gender and Bill Clinton's popularity only Obama can stop the train.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is the second strongest argument against (none / 0)

"young energetic supporters, liberals".

Unfortunately most young people don't come out for the primaries, and liberals still aren't the majority in the Democratic party. As for African Americans they will most likely be split between Clinton and Obama. If Obama wants to win he has to appeal to the blue collar union vote. Unless I'm wrong I believe Clinton and Edwards are fighting for that and are having more success than Obama.


by bsavage on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 06:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have (2.00 / 0)

Yes, she does.

She has to deal with Democrats like myself, who will NEVER EVER vote for her.

Period.


by rikyrah on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 06:21:45 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (2.00 / 0)

If Hillary wins the nomination I plan to stay home.  period.  I will never give her my vote.


by vwcat on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 07:41:55 PM EST

Re: When Hillary Wins (none / 0)

WHEN Hillary wins the nomination, I will Definitely vote for her.

If Obama or Edwards wins the nomination, they will also get my vote.


by Kingstongirl on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 08:47:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"low information voter" (3.00 / 1)

There is a running gag on MyDD about "low information voters", in other words people, in primary polls, who disagree with you. To anyone who seriously studies the electorate the idea that a likely primary voter is poorly informed is laughable.

But in this case, in a on-line poll of voting age people, we have actual low information voters. People who's only source of information about Hillary Clinton is decades of right-wing slander and the hostility of the elite on and off-line pudit class. The proprietors of this site, heedless of the lesson of Clinton's 2000 election in NY where she turned high negatives into an 55% blowout, are convinced that those negatives are carved in stone. They believe that Americans are fools who have been so convinced by the Republican smear machine that no amount of new information will change their minds about Hillary Clinton.

Senator Clinton has plenty of time and room to re-introduce herself to the American electorate, and she will win over many of the people who are convinced that they will never vote for her.

John Edwards and Senator Obama face the larger challenge: how to convince the Democratic electorate that their substantive positions, which are largely indistinguishable from Senator Clinton's, even on Iraq, make them the best candidate for President. Neither candidate will win unless they can articulate substantive differences that will peel off Clinton's support.

My bet is that John Edwards is in a better position to do so.


by souvarine on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 08:49:11 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

It is too bad to see you ducking and weaving to avoid annoying the Clinton Democrats. Frankly I think we have a real problem if Clinton is nominated - she might win and continue her pattern of hawkish yet splineless behavior. Or she might lose to a thug. Either way, why cannot progressive voices be loud an clear?


by pwax on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:23:12 AM EST

Um (none / 0)

Drudge was sending people to take this poll.

I think you've overestimated what it means.


by SteveWFP on Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:40:23 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Clinton Have An Electability Prob (none / 0)

I take a contrary view. Judging by polls, history and raw political talent, Clinton is our strongest candidate.  That someone as well known and, ahem, as polarizing as Hillary Clinton is running so strongly in states like Virginia and Kentucky is quite remarkable.  True Edwards and Obama on average are doing equally well or better in the early polling, but I would argue that they both have significant general election vulnerabilities which I believe Hillary does not have.  Edwards is trying to become the first clearly identified progressive -populist ever to be elected president. That's right, from the start of modern American political history in 1896 no candidate running purely to the left of center has ever won a presidential election.  Every successful Democratic presidential candidate has managed to get support  from moderate and even some conservative voters.  Of course you need to have clear progressive agenda to run on.  As FDR warned over 80 years the trouble was "in the minds of the average voter the Democratic Party has today no definite constructive aims."  (Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., The Crisis of the Old Order.  New York:  Mariner Books 1985, page 104).  But you need to persuade the average voter that you do have constructive aims.  Edwards, despite long years as a successful trial lawyer, doesn't seem to have this knack.  Stating that you'll refuse even to negotiate with health care industry interests doesn't indicate great confidence in one's persuasive abilities.  For what it's worth (and this may be very little) a recent Rasmussen poll gives some evidence of Edwards' problems with the voters.  He has the third highest percentage of voters who declare they won't vote for him (38%) just behind Hillary (43%) and Mitt Romney (44%). But he's also next to last (20%) among all candidates in the number of people who say they'll definitely vote for him. Who has the most supporters? Hillary at 33%. [http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c ontent/politics/romney_encounters_more_c ore_opposition_than_clinton]
Obama's potential weaknesses are more subtle.  He is appealing to a broad spectrum of the electorate.  But he seems to doing less on the basis of an agreed program than on his own considerable abilities as a conciliator. Now this may work; it's basically what Jimmy Carter ran on in 1976 (but of course Obama is saying more than he'll never lie us and will the make the government as good as the American people), but the approach has risks. Candidates like these can resemble mirrors; people look at them and see their thoughts and values.  If you don't establish your political identity a determined opposition campaign can shatter this image, making you appear out of the mainstream.  Obama, by temperament, may be particularly vulnerable to this strategy.  Consider this rather alarming quote from Larissa MacFarquhar's   New Yorker profile ""When I see Ann Coulter or Sean Hannity baying across the television screen, I find it hard to take them seriously.'  He tends to think of his opponents as deluded and ridiculous, rather than as demons."  [http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/ 05/07/070507fa_fact_macfarquhar?currentP age=7] Intellectually and spiritually this is a commendable sentiment, but as a political strategy it is suicidal. Shades of Dukakis and Kerry.
Hillary of course does not have this problem.  She is a polarizing candidate, but then we are an intensely polarized country and it does no one credit to ignore this. But what is little appreciated among Hillary bashers is that she has proven track record of getting people on the fence to support her.   Early in her 2000 Senate she was statistically tied first with Guiliani, then with Rick Lazio.  Given that she was under 50% with strong negative running against an unknown young Congressman many people thought then she was a certain loser.  In fact John Fund was predicting her defeat barely a week before the election.  Well, of course, she won by 12 points.  In fact HRC is the only candidate running in either party who has been elected and re-elected in a big politically diverse state. Remember Republicans, even conservative ones (Nixon, Reagan Pataki, D'Amato) have won in New York.  And who, you may ask, was the last person who ran for president with a similar record in state wide elections?  Ronald Reagan, who by the way was 20 points behind Jimmy Carter as late as February 1980.

by Reference Librarian on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 08:20:54 PM EST


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