A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Death By Meta

Last June, I was lucky enough to participate in both the "blog theory" and "metakos" panels at Yearly Kos. At the time, I thought the two were topics were closely related, and even to this day I have often tagged my posts on either of those subjects as both "blogosphere" and "meta." However, in recent weeks, I have come to notice that the two topics have greatly diverged from one another, to the point where I no longer feel comfortable writing about "meta" (at least in the way the term has come to be used and the type of blogging to which it refers). While I am fond of writing about the role of the progressive, political blogosphere within the broader political ecosytem, which used to be incorporated under the "meta" label, I now refer to that as "blog theory." By way of contrast, "meta" in the way it is now most commonly used, has come to refer to something much more specific: discussions centering on the internal dynamics of a small number of prominent personalities within the Dailykos-centric community and blogosphere. While I will probably write about "blog theory" as long as I am writing online, I will not directly participate in the new style of "meta" discussion, despite the new cottage industry which has sprung up around it. "Meta" discussions have become utterly destructive to the broader goal of coalition building, as they increasing become based on cults of personality, divisive factionalization, violations of privacy, accusations of conspiracy, charges of prejudice, and petty name-calling.

Political infrastructure is one of the main focuses of MyDD and, as such, "God's eye" commentary on the impact of the political blogosphere within the broader political ecosystem has always been one of our trademarks. One of my very first posts on MyDD was Theory of the Blogosphere As Avant-Garde, where I applied some elements of critical theory that I had originally intended to use in my dissertation on post-WWII, American, avant-garde poetry collectives to the progressive, political blogosphere. Since then, I have had a number of well-linked posts that engage in rather theoretical treatment of the blogosphere, including Top Down Right Wing Blogosphere Growing Powerful, Diversity and the Two Lefty Spheres, Aristocrat Right-Wing Blogosphere Stagnating, The Emergence of the Progressive Blogosphere (co-written with Matt), The One Way Flow Of Progressive Movement Money, and dozens of other posts on this topic. In my opinion, many of my better posts on this subject were compiled at the start of two fairly recent posts, Declaring Victory, Continuing to Grow, wherein the linked posts discuss the netroots contribution to the 2006 election victories, and On Preaching to the Choir, wherein the linked posts discuss what I term "the activist class war" between insiders and outsiders, establishment and grassroots. I love writing about this stuff and, as many of my off-line friends often note with irritation, I could talk about it forever. It also strikes me as important work. Given the enormous explosion of political blogging since 2002, and the tremendous impact it both has had, and continues to have, on the American political scene, figuring out the mechanisms through which blogging has made an impact, the dynamics of its interaction of other sources of American political power, and the potential / limitations of the blogosphere in the future are all key to sustaining a viable progressive movement.

. However, that just is not what "meta" means anymore. Now, it means flame wars, rather than theory. It means accusations of conspiracy, prejudice and "selling out," rather than discussion. It means holding up personalities on a pedestal and factionalizing into groups around those pedestals, rather than building coalitions. It also means that some people just can't get over problems the have on Dailykos. Make no mistake--the progressive, political blogosphere as a whole is not plagued by the recent wave of meta discussions. Instead, these discussions are specific to a single hub within the progressive, political blogosphere: the Dailykos hub. and yes, there are other major hubs in the progressive political blogosphere that have little or nothing to do with Dailykos). These new "meta" discussions are not blogosphere-wide, and are instead specific to the group of blogs that largely arose out of the Dailykos community: MyDD, Steve Gillard, Billmon, BooMan Tribune, My Left Wing, Kid Oakland, The Next Hurrah, Liberal Street Fight, Street Prophets, etc. Literally dozens of prominent blogs and bloggers have arisen out of the Dailykos community, and as such these blogs and bloggers still have a tendency to share links, readers and commenters with one another. In a real way, it is just a new transformation of the community Considering how much they share, it should also come as no surprise that these blogs also have a tendency to share arguments with one another, and the physical space represented by the many different blogs allows those arguments to create factions, and increasingly entropy, much more so than any other time in the past.

I do not know for certain how this happened, but I do (as usual) have a theory. First, many of the blogs that spawned out of the Dailykos community failed to follow the first rule that I laid out my "meta" post from last Sunday night:
1. MyDD is not Dailykos. If you have a problem with something that happened at Dailykos, if you were banned from Dailykos, or if you just don't like Dailykos, don't bring it to MyDD. We are a different website, with a different focus (albeit, only slightly different). We have different writers, different commenters, and a different community. We are not the Dailykos garbage can, or a forum where flame wars on that site can be revisited and continued.
I am not sure at all why so many bloggers are obsessed with their stature within the Dailykos community, and the level of personal respect they receive from Markos. Dailykos obsession actually does not even make sense to me as a way to grow your blog, since if you treat your blog as an extension of Dailykos, it will never truly come into its own. Apart from being stuck on Dailykos, I also wonder if it has something to do with having a close-knit, socializing community on a blog that tends to function at its best (that is, have its most political impact) when it operates in a more work-oriented, professional manner. I have always viewed MyDD as a professional operation, and as such I have been wary of the dangers of the blog becoming a social site instead. As I wrote in my first stab at MyDD meta last summer:
As far as I can tell, the reason there is no such thing as Meta-MyDD is because there is no MyDD community, as such. Sure, we have frequent commenters and diarists, but what really separates MyDD from sites like Dailykos, BooMan Tribune, Fire Dog Lake and My Left Wing is that while they build a family-like community, we instead act as though we are political professionals.

Without a family, without a community, there is no need to reflect back on our history. Simply (and sadly) put, there is no one to care. Every single person who has ever been a significant front pager for MyDD has also been a political professional at one time or another. As such, we tend to be much more focused on elections and political infrastructure than upon ourselves. When someone leaves MyDD, they do not post a GBCW diary. Instead, they simply announce that they are leaving to become a full-time staffer or consultant for some organization, official, or campaign. This also explains why we get both a disproportionate amount of traffic to our front-page, and why we get a disproportionate amount of establishment media and political attention relative to our traffic
For me, MyDD is work, not play. Obsessive work that I love, and socializing that I miss, but work none the less. When, at the metakos panel, I was asked if I thought progressives should work to recreate the social organization of blogs in offline environments, I quickly answered "no." While there are some admirable aspects of blogosphere communication--honesty, authenticity and something approaching meritocracy--overall, I shudder to think at how awful offline social situations would be if they mimicked online communication. Since it is so impersonal, it is much easier to be disrespectful of the intelligence, knowledge and feelings of others than it is in person. It is much easier to be aggressive and, for lack of a better word, an asshole online than it is offline. It is easy to accuse people you don't know of bias and participation in some dark conspiracy. After all, a comment thread is an extremely limited means of communicating with another person--a very narrow band through which to express personal feeling. With limited comments serving as the dominant form of communication, the blogosphere is a realm where it is easy to feel suspicious, isolated, excluded, and disrespected, and where it is easy to make others felt that way as well.

I agree very much with a comment written by skeptic06 in a comment to the Meta-MyDD post (emphasis in original):
I wonder whether it's just that community aspect of some of the sites Chris mentions that leads to the flame wars, troll patrols and other signs of online intolerance.

I like the way it's not high school clique-y round here - as Chris says, whoever thinks about his MyDD UID? - and the level of sycophancy to FP-ers is kept well in check, that I've noticed!
Tight, online communities can add an important personal touch to a political blog, but I also worry if they lead to stagnation in terms of the ideas--and people--that are viewed as acceptable on a blog. I have to wonder if all of these "meta" posts and flamewars come from people at first feeling as though they were welcome members of an online community, and then later on feeling as though they have been dissed, excluded, or otherwise not made to feel welcome anymore. On MyDD, I have instead taken the approach that the blog is to be viewed as a professional enterprise rather than as social one. And I don't even mean the work comes first, and the socializing second--I mean the work comes always, and the socializing comes almost never. If the site was never personal in the first place, it is less likely you will feel pushed out of the community at some point. This may not make people feel very comfortable here, and the lack of socializing and other fun activities on MyDD might keep our traffic down compared to other prominent political blogs, but it does allow us to stay focused on the task at hand, maintain a high level of influence on the broader political scene, and typically stay on the sidelines during these ultimately destructive meta wars.

There are benefits to communities, but there are dangers too. The "meta" fights we have seen recently are clearly one of the dangers. How to approach the balance between the serious, political work of a blog and the social, informal, pleasurable work of meeting people online is clearly one of the main dilemmas of anyone with a large blog. On MyDD, we tack hard toward the professional side of things, perhaps to the determent of our community. Historically, on sites like Dailykos, the social side of the equation has been foregrounded to a greater extent, which for most people probably makes the site more fun to participate in than MyDD. However, given the nature of online communication and the difficulty of coherence within large groups, depressing, mean-spirited, fractious "meta" wars are perhaps an inevitable side-effect. Part of the community will always be in turmoil, and for some prominent members of the community, death by meta will eventually result.

Some bloggers often ask me why MyDD doesn't have much of a social scene, or a family-like community of commenters. Now that more and more sites are being dragged into an ever expanding flame war, I think the question could easily be turned around: why do other sites, that ostensibly are created to impact politics, so heavily foreground a family-like community of commenters? I am not arguing that one is better than the other, because in the end all types of political blogs are necessary to appeal to a broad progressive audience with divergent tastes. If every progressive political blog had a large, close-knit community, then we would all probably be face the constant scourge of flame wars. By way of contrast, if every site as "professional" as MyDD, then the political blogosphere would have far fewer participants, and it would also lack an important element of humanity. We need both, but I am going to stick on the "professional" side of things, avoid meta, and stick to "blog theory." Considering the number of conspiracies, idiocies, and prejudices I have been accused of anyway, I can only imagine how bad it would become if MyDD were to suddenly split into factions of some sort after previously all feeling like one big, happy family. We do not all need to be sociable in progressive politics, and there are clear dangers (and benefits, of course) to being so. I believe the progressive, political blogosphere is the most important political infrastructure development of the past five years, and it would be a great tragedy if it were to die off because we all suffered death by meta. If we are really going to change the country, sometimes we just have to get down to work, and forget about the personalities of the people involved.

Display:


Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (none / 0)

I don't really read Daily Kos so I don't think I'm doing any of the bad things here.


by vwcat on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 09:49:13 PM EST

Paradigm shift (3.00 / 1)

Chris--In a few short years you and the Kosnicks have already become the old generation--you might as well be talking about brown acid and bra burning to me.
I've entered the political blogosphere post-Kos and I have little experience of all this drama. Who am I to say that? I self-define myself as a member of the netroots, and occassionally use the royal "we" in reference to said roots. I fall on the activist end of the spectrum rather than the political professional side.
I've wandered into the fertile provincial backwater of MYDD (or powerful, smoke-filled back room as I'm sure you would prefer) and am very happy with it. To whatever extent your context and experience has led you to manage this site in a way that has suppressed the dynamic you describe, then I'm happy for it and thank you. But for those of us (the royal "those") who entered the community post-Kos and for whom it is not a touchstone, you are boxing with shadows.
by johnalive on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (3.00 / 1)

I think that mainly flame wars are a result of the moderators not stopping them.  If the mods stop them they don't happen.


by sterra on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 10:21:45 PM EST

90-10-1 (3.00 / 2)

I'm curious to what extent the DKos community fits the 90-10-1 rule.  If it does fit, it stands to reason that the fighting and stupid drama is pretty much all happening in the 10% group -- my interest is then what the impact is on the 90% group (which, incidentally, I am in).  I can't imagine it's attractive to them (I know it's not to me), but does it actually turn people off?  I don't know.  I skim the DKos front page via RSS, and the biggest reason that I don't really read the whole thing anymore is that it's too much content that too often doesn't interest me.  But other than the wider variety of content, I don't think my attitude about the site or the community has really changed much in the last four years or so.


by aaronetc on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 10:33:05 PM EST

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (3.00 / 2)

This is a problem that you are increasingly going to see.  The netroots have been brought together primarily on an anti-war, anti-Bush agenda.  I'm not sure it's going to last when those two are no longer the issue.  Populist movements tend to run out of steam, fizzle, and mostly die at some point.

Meta fights will become proxys for other differences as those differences between blogosphere factions become more salient.

I also have to wonder how many DailyKos drama queens are angling for front-pager status.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 10:41:42 PM EST

Interesting meta, Chris (3.00 / 3)

Um, I mean theory.

Street Prophets is almost the opposite of MyDD in regards to community - we have lots and lots of it - but not very much "work" gets done. I keep trying to steer things back to the other side, but they don't listen to me.

The interesting thing is that we haven't had nearly as many meta explosions as you might think. There's been some churn, but only once or twice where we've had to hash things out directly just to keep things going. Partly, that because of our size. And partly, it's because so many of us are dKos refugees. We've had it with the fighting and the fighting and the crazy-making, and we don't want it on our site.


by pastordan on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 10:43:50 PM EST

Re: Interesting meta, Chris (none / 0)

That's why I like to read them both! I rarely comment here, even though I read MYDD vociferously, but I comment all the time at SP.

It's good to have both.


by Sadie Baker on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:37:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities (3.00 / 1)

your thoughts on the problems of meta in-fighting in the blogosphere are almost meta-phoric of the problem with politics in general... that in-fighting in any political context impedes real work/change. This brought to mind Gore's congressional testimony.

If you're talking blog theory, I'm interested to know more about the blogging strategies, tactics, theory that successfully drive political change when MyDD and other blogs are working optimally.


by rbrbrbr on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 10:50:02 PM EST

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities (3.00 / 1)

I agree with everything you said, Chris, but I think there's more to it.

It's generally accepted in the business world that the person at the top sets the tone for the company.  In my opinion this is true for online communities as well, when the person (or small group of persons) at the top have a strong presence and identiy.  In fact, due to the less structured form of online communities the person doesn't even have to be a leader;  all they really need to do is have a forceful personality and writing style.  Pretty soon the entire group starts to sound like them, whether that is a positive change or not.

In the case of DailyKos, Markos has a strong, opinionated style that is sometimes a bit on the intemperate and inflammatory side.  Because the other participants look up to him, and because his "voice" is so unmistakeable, they tend to emulate his style, but not always with his substance.  Pretty soon the mud is slinging in all directions, as we see here.

As a concrete example of what I mean:  Markos feels very strongly that Iowa and New Hampshire no longer deserve their "first primary/caucus" status (if they ever did) because in his opinion they have made poor choices that don't represent the rest of the country and don't sufficiently take electability into account.  One can agree or disagree with his opinion on this, and that's as it should be.  Where he goes off the rails, in my opnion, is when he personalizes the issue by using words like greedy and whiny to describe the state parties, and basically calls anyone who disagrees with him on this an idiot.  That's absolutely not helpful to making his point or convincing anyone to listen to him.  When you have the guy whose name is on the "masthead" saying things like that, how can one possibly expect the rest of the discourse on the site to remain civil?  It's just not going to happen.

I guess, to tie this in to your premise, the problem with sites like DailyKos is not so much that they are family-style, but that they are dysfunctional family-style. :)

Just so no-one suspects me of ulterior motives, I've only commented a handful of times over there, and they were all favorably received.  So I have no axe to grind.  I just have found myself a bit dismayed by some of the things I've read which I feel hurt the site's credibility, and this post reminded me of my thoughts on that.


by janiner on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:02:43 PM EST

It's also not helpful (3.00 / 1)

when people put words in your mouth.

"Electability"? When have I ever used that word in relationship to Iowa or NH? Shit, I don't even use that word period, other than to trash it.

And I've called people idiots for disagreeing with them on IA and NH? Show me where!

To Chris' point, I think when your traffic is at the half a million mark, this site will be hit with the same dynamics. I think it's a matter of size. Witness the K5s, Slashdots, MetaFilters, and so on. They all have to deal with this sort of thing.

Daily Kos was a lot different when it was less trafficked.


by kos on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's also not helpful (none / 0)

Yes, exactly. At a lower, less analytical level, the damn thing has gotten too big. For new entries to the progressive blogosphere, Daily Kos is becoming less likely to be the primary gateway--which I might add takes nothing away from DK.
To expand on Chris's concept of an "ecosystem"--as an ecosystem evolves, it becomes more complex and more diverse, and therefore more robust and more flexible when challenged or attacked.
Chris ends his post talking of the risk of a "great tragedy" and potential "dying off" of the progressive blogosphere. I think his concerns are backwards and upside down--the glass isn't just half-full it's overflowing.
by johnalive on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's also not helpful (none / 0)

The particular comment I was thinking of was in the comments on a diary, and I doubt very much I could find it.  Apologies if I misstated the exact words used;  I probably shouldn't have given the example without a link.  I stand by my primary point, however.  It's a tone thing, and the tone of DailyKos is very different than the tone at MyDD.  Different doesn't necessarily mean worse, but IMHO it does lead to the issues Chris was writing about.


by janiner on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here (none / 0)

This isn't the piece I was thinking of, but it's good enough to illustrate my point even though the specific words I mentioned don't appear.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/24/ 152914/317


by janiner on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:22:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That piece (3.00 / 0)

has none of the words or even sentiments you claimed I said.

Electability? Idiots? The reality is much different, though it's not the first time (and won't be the last) that people put words into my mouth and assign things to me without any evidence.

And if that tone is supposedly the cause, then this site would be suffering, because Stoller, Bowers, and Jerome aren't wilting flowers. They can attack like the best of them, certainly to the level of the post you link above.

This site clearly fills a niche, and it's a more professional one. That definitely has something to do with the dynamics Bowers described. But, I doubt the same feel would exist if traffic hit 500k.

And when MyDD grows to that level, you will see those dynamics change. In this world, size definitely matters.


by kos on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:46:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That piece (3.00 / 1)

Oh yeah, size definitely matters. But we also don't have things like Cheer and Jeers, which is pretty much all socializing. And when we bring on new writers, we bring on people from outside the blog, rather than inside (usually).

One of the reasons we will never reach 500K a day, and why we have been stuck at around 30K a day for 15 months except during election times, is because we are so niche. This is also because I have practiced something of an elitist branding style that intentionally deflects away the casual reader in favor of the uber-obsessive.

But, perhaps even beyond any of that, the real reason is that we had time to think about it. After about a year of blogging, when I knew we weren't going to get Dailykos or Atrios big, I decided to just focus on what we did well, and develop a niche market. I doubt that you fully anticipated the rapid growth you experienced during 2002-2004, and the time to sit back and plan during a plateau might not have been available. Rapid growth invariably creates more entropy, and renders the idea of focused, niche targeting basically useless.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:22:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That piece (none / 0)

If you wanna cater more to the uber obsessive Chris, then why not do us lurkers a favor and throw up an RSS feed of some kind! ;)


by beedee on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:30:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That piece (3.00 / 2)

Pretty sure that's what should happen to Breaking Blue. To be honest, though, I'm a little disappointed in what BB seems to have become, which is a way for other bloggers to advertise themselves more than anything else.


by PsiFighter37 on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:49:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That piece (none / 0)

There is an RSS Feed.  I read this site by RSS every day.  Maybe it's your readers.  I use Bloglines and don't have any trouble.


Youth to Power
by Mike Connery on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That piece (none / 0)

I use an Ajax based site called http://protopage.com which has a good RSS newsreader that can be configured with multiple pages of feeds, Gmail access, sticky notes, photos, etc.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That piece (none / 0)

And when we bring on new writers, we bring on people from outside the blog, rather than inside (usually).

I think this is a key point. There's a strong competitive feel to dKos often, with the "meritocracy" angle devolving into a mad scramble for attention. Which I actually don't have a problem  with; it's not strictly meritocratic (the best don't always rise), but it's close enough to be interesting.

However, when you have a really strong benefit to rising in the meritocracy (getting read by hundreds of thousands in the case of a front-page piece or whatever percentage click on "rec diaries" in the lower-level case), feelings can run really high. There's a lot of benefit to "succeeding" at Daily Kos, so the differences between community members is pretty large, larger than really fits with a progressive feel. That "winners and losers" feel can create a lot of resentment and anger.

Combine that with a pretty strong lean toward blunt, strong, sometimes profane verbiage that runs throughout the blogosphere and is reinforced on dKos by Markos's strong writing style, and you'll get flame wars and resentment fairly often.


by BriVT on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:01:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And don't (3.00 / 1)

forget the various diary series like Top Comments (and pastordan's diaries), the explicit purpose of which is socialization.

But even if MyDD had those type of regular diaries or front page stories, that doesn't necessarily mean there would be a bunch of meta flame wars.

It seems to me that the most important ingredient in a meta flame war is (for lack of a better term) a "strong" personality that diaries and comments prominetly and regularly.

If you look at the various flamewars going on in the DKos-related blogosphere lately, they all stem from a few people who I have a feeling would end up causing problems no matter where they decide to blog.


by taylormattd on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

taylormattd (3.00 / 1)

I think the explicit purpose of Top Comments is to help draw attention to the excellent comments in diaries that might not get as much attention, thereby not letting good comments go unnoticed. The social aspect is an outgrowth of it, but I don't recall any flame wars resulting from Top Comments -- with the exception of one  kossack who left the site in a bizarre GBCW diary appearing to hate everything about Daily Kos.


by Carnacki on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 03:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh no (3.00 / 1)

I didn't mean TC contributes to any flame wars, quite the contrary. It is a very safe place, and I love top comments. I was just using the TC diaries as an example of the social aspect of DKos.

In fact, the point I was trying to make was that IMO, it is not really the "social" aspect of DKos that causes flame wars. Rather, it is almost always the result of a "strong" personality who would end up causing trouble of one kind or another no matter where s/he posts.


by taylormattd on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 04:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris (3.00 / 0)

In defense of Cheers and Jeers, political humor might be the most effective tool of the left. Bill's diary is political humor at a very high level and while the comment thread is all about community, the diary itself really isn't.


by Carnacki on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 03:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's also not helpful (none / 0)

Now that is a neat trick Kos. Remind me to have my facts straight before I criticize you....gotta be ready to respond on the instant!

And I agree with you dKos reminds me of what happened to the Haight Ashbury community, and it was a community, post 'Summer of Love'. Lotta folks showed up from all over who had no idea of what we were trying to do there and then. Place disintegrated under the impact. But that was a physical environment. Less amenable to ideas and requiring agreement for it's existence.

At dKos it's not really necessary that all agree. It can and does function with a whole lot of dissension. And the  worst that happens, to a diarist or commenter, is they get their feelings hurt.

I think dKos is still the place to go to see the big picture.

And...

I think we all need to try and keep it healthy and alive.

YearlyKos 2007 should help with that.


by Pericles on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's also not helpful (none / 0)

I no longer read your site but I love to read your diaries.


by aiko on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Daily Kos was a lot different" (3.00 / 1)

No it wasn't!

I agree with you that size matters, but only up to a point. When I came to dKos, you had the Clark/Dean wars, Armando, a gilas girl, galiel, and marisacat all over the place.

Yeah, things have gotten nastier over time, but let's face it: there have always been assholes a dKos.


by pastordan on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 10:01:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Truer words (none / 0)

have never been written.  

There is no golden age to look back on....


by fladem on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 11:48:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's also not helpful (none / 0)

I agree.  I have found myself reading DKOS less since it is much more trafficed.  So much happens so quickly there that you can find the tide rushing over you faster than you can swim if you don't keep up.


Mark
by Mark J. Bowers on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 10:01:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's also not helpful (none / 0)

oh c'mon. How about here as one example of at least financial electability in support of the de facto national primary: "but if a candidate can't raise money, do we really want him or her as our nominee against the GOP money juggernaut? I consider the primary season an opportunity to probe each candidate for chinks in the armor, and failure to raise money is a huge red flag."

I think "electability" is a buzzword that distracts from the point here, and just because the word doesn't appear doesn't mean that isn't what's being talked about.  That being said, I'm not objecting to any of it.  It's a cop out to blame it all on your example, because as you say, communities change when they get too big no matter what.  I've seen it happen with a number of communities, where once it grows big enough to have have sub-communities it inevitably becomes divisive, or at least disjointed.

Life goes on, and either those who aren't interested in such crap move to a new place or figure a way to filter out the chaff and carry on.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 10:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's also not helpful (none / 0)

And I've called people idiots for disagreeing with them on IA and NH? Show me where!

Not in so many words, but ask and you shall receive:

You are wrong (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
    Terri, theran, Pennsylvanian

Only Iowa and New Hampshire have real people.

The rest of the states have robots. Or something.

by kos on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:21:20 PM EDT

Link

Your tone and professionalism when talking about some of your pet issues has an impact on the site.  Or, what do you think some of us New Hampshire Kossacks thought when you asserted that our whole state was having a 'hissy fit' and that we must think the rest of the country is filled with 'robots.  Or something'.

And trust me.  We all read that thread.


Blue Hampshire, a progressive online community for the Granite State.
by nhcollegedem on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

kos (none / 0)

I blame Bush. Six years of his administration has turned a lot of people into angry ranters and that  spills over into the blog posts.

I ignore most of it, particularly criticism from those who claim I "sold out" for taking BlogPAC money (apparently if one is not rich enough to afford a web site hosting fees and software licensing one shouldn't be setting up online communities like West Virginia Blue -- a rather elitist attitude from one of the 'holier than thou-ers') because I'm focusing on grassroots blogging and defeating Shelley Moore Capito in WV-02.


by Carnacki on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 03:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

something to do with critical mass (none / 0)

It could have something to do with how DailyKos grew and how MyDD grew.  You've mentioned that your exit poll post is where MyDD first got any big attention.

Then you had some other notable campaigns, like the google-bomb and use-it-or-lose-it - anyway, these bring lots of eyeballs, but they are people coming to read you or Jerome or Matt.  

I don't come here to read the diaries.  Whereas on DailyKos, the growth was organic.  Kos never really did anything particularly notable as a blogger that I know of, other than setting up DK.  His own posts aren't obscenely brilliant on the level of Digby or Glenn Greenwald to attract an audience on their own, Kos just fostered this community.

So the people who go there are going there to read the diaries, not the front pagers - who, Kos has wisely chosen to pull from the ranks of the diarists (though that has problems too, as another commenter above alluded).

So my theory is MyDD grew from the strength of its front pagers, and the diary functions are just a bit of icing.  DK grew out of the relatively novel approach of a community blog dedicated to progressive politics.  


by scientician on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:06:25 PM EST

WTF!??! (none / 0)

Chris, this article you linked too is full of spam comments.  Might want to take care of 'em (one is in chinese?!)


by delmoi on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:11:19 PM EST

Re: WTF!??! (none / 0)

I cleaned it up. that was a mess.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:32:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (3.00 / 1)

This is a really interesting and important diary. I've always wondered why so much energy has been spent on "meta" issues and conflicts, and my reasons have to do with the kind of blog reader and participant I am.

I am a liberal blog addict who rarely posts, in part because I don't have time, and in part because of the negative vibe I've sometimes gotten from this experience. But I would say that I'm really importatnt to this community just as a reader of this media; I contribute to the total number of pages accessed, the growing number of the people who use sites like mydd and dailykos and a dozen others for information primarily and avenues for political action as well.

What I love most about the blogosphere is how smart people like Chris and Matt provide such great information, whether it's on demographic trends and their relation to political outcomes, or, this past election, the absolutely awesome studies of congressional elections. I love how there is a medium that holds the TV media accountable everyday for their foibles and failures.

I don't really pay much attention to the meta-wars, though as a regular dailykos reader, I can't help but be aware of them. As much as they are probably inevitable, human nature and "love of fame" being what they are, they are not the reason  why the blogosphere is becoming an important factor in political discourse today. In fact, they may be a detriment. I said I rarely post, and one reason is that in places like Dailykos (not to totally criticize it because I visit it everyday), there is sometimes a vibe (perhaps based on their complex ratings system) of being watched and judged for what you say. I once got so thoroughly lambasted for a glib comment I made that I actually thought to myself, how is a progressive movement supposed to grow if someone like me, who is already on board, is being attacked?

Anyway, if blogs are going to be a major new alternative media, and ultimately compete against TV as a major source of information related to politics, it will be because more people like me regularly visit pages. We are interested in community not in the sense of cliques and personalities, but in the sense of recognizing in the act of reading, and occasionally posting, that there are a lot of progressives like us out there in the ether.


by colinmpls on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:16:30 PM EST

Why does meta happen? (none / 0)

I think the absence of meta here on MyDD is in part because the information presented by Chris, Matt, Jerome, Nancy Scola, etc. is always factual and well thought out.

On Daily Kos many posters aren't as narrowly politically focused and may post more 'thoughts on a topic' that get hashed about in the comments. The 'hashing about' is a very valuable process that can bubble up new information to the surface and bring attention to issues that would otherwise escape scrutiny. It also allows people who are not experts to be comfortable offering input and new views and data.  But I think the 'hashing out' process has byproducts - one of which is 'meta'.

Slag is a byproduct of heating ore. The pure metal that is left is valuable, the slag not so much. On Daily Kos the slag is highly visible. On MyDD there is less slag because you start with a higher quality ore and people like Chris and Matt don't need to hash out their ideas in comment threads - they already know what they think and self-edit.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: : Death By Meta (none / 0)

This was only to be expected, once MySpace and YouTube further personalized and "socialized" the internet.

I was BFK after one of the what you call "troll police" took exception to my interpretation of Senate Bill 359  ("Student Debt Relief Act"), which is a cheap imitation of the same Democratic initiative put forth just last year.

The general nastiness is common to community boards set up by newspaper chains like Advance Publications (www.nj.com) etc.

I read someone comment on one that they attract "frenemies"---which I understand to be people who are not friends but like to get together and attack each other and/or undermine their social standing.

It was inevitable, that once Kos became a social networking site, that is driven by hits and eyeball numbers to make a lot of money, that this "frenemies" effect would get a life of its own.   Like a People Magazine or a tmz.com for the geeky blogging community.  

I guess people either follow Paris Hilton's antics for their vicarious frenemies fix, or they set themselves up on Kos and go to town.

If I understand the history, Kos left here and went there, not the other way around.


by Hoofin on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:17:37 PM EST

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities (none / 0)

I think the blogosphere is like an electronic  magazine or music, different things appeal to different people. That said though, whenever you have a successful formula, in this case Daily Kos, people tend to copy with the hope of duplicating the success.  Think of the many versions of American Idol that has come to pass.  You and others at MyDD understood early on that there was already a Daily Kos and the people (customers) who liked Daily Kos and wanted to read Daily Kos would not come to MyDD, so you had to offer something different. I have been reading the blogs for over two years, but I read Eschaton, MyDD, Daily Kos, and others for different reasons.  


by Kingstongirl on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:35:59 PM EST

One of my favorite T Shirts (none / 0)

One of my favorite T Shirts when I was an undergraduate , hanging out with the Society for Creative Anachronism - was a black T Shirt with the words "T S Kuhn" and a drawing of two dimes on the front.

:-)


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 11:38:05 PM EST

DKos dosn't feel like a community to me. (3.00 / 1)

DKos is more like a sprawling metropolis then a community. There are far too many comments, too many people to ever feel a sense of place. What initially drew me to MyDD was it's smallness, relative to DKos, as well as it's focus on essays and analysis rather then straight-up advocacy.


by delmoi on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:16:34 AM EST

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (none / 0)

I think your comment that "we instead act as though we are political professionals" is an important point. Communities can grow too large, unfocused, and out of control and that has happened with a lot of sites.

What I like about MyDD is how well it is focused and that it attracts many people who can discuss things seriously and are not just interested in flaming out anyone who does not agree with them. Since 2004 there has been a lot of change in the netroots. There are now many, many more local, state, national, and niche sites.

What concerns me the most about the netroots for 2008 is how many anti-Clinton, anti-Obama, anti-Edwards posts there are from supporters of the candidates. Perhaps it is just because there is so much interest this early in the season but in the long run it concerns me it will do damage to whoever the nominee is and the netroots as well.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:22:43 AM EST

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (3.00 / 0)

chris...does this mean we're not allowed to be friends?
www.adamconner7.com
by Adam Conner on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:29:28 AM EST

back to blogging (3.00 / 1)

Hey! Who said you could leave the assembly line? Back to work you slacker. I want you making community, but I also want you blogging.


by clockwerks on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (none / 0)


When, at the metakos panel, I was asked if I thought progressives should work to recreate the social organization of blogs in offline environments, I quickly answered "no." While there are some admirable aspects of blogosphere communication--honesty, authenticity and something approaching meritocracy--overall, I shudder to think at how awful offline social situations would be if they mimicked online communication. Since it is so impersonal, it is much easier to be disrespectful of the intelligence, knowledge and feelings of others than it is in person. It is much easier to be aggressive and, for lack of a better word, an asshole online than it is offline. It is easy to accuse people you don't know of bias and participation in some dark conspiracy. After all, a comment thread is an extremely limited means of communicating with another person--a very narrow band through which to express personal feeling. With limited comments serving as the dominant form of communication, the blogosphere is a realm where it is easy to feel suspicious, isolated, excluded, and disrespected, and where it is easy to make others felt that way as well.

This is why it's very difficult for me to fathom how one can necessarily make so many friends from an online community - oftentimes, the personalities that come to the forefront on the Internet are much, much different than those of the people in the flesh.


by PsiFighter37 on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:51:51 AM EST

No Meta Gates to Crash ... Yet (none / 0)

That is the danger that would indicate a terminal illness. As long as there are enough links open to prevent communities becoming clans I think we will be OK.

BTW
Have you ever discussed some of these issues with any of the old MUD (online text games) from the BBS and early Net eras? Somebody like Alan Leeton at IbGames who has a game running like 20 years has probably dealt with some of these issues.


by Judeling on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 01:35:39 AM EST

Re: A Danger Of Online Political Communities: Deat (none / 0)

Damned interesting discussion going on here.  This piece has cleared up several questions I've had for quite some time. Thank you.


by Nick Stump on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 02:11:05 AM EST

Chris, did you ever see this? (none / 0)

My photoshop essay:

"What did you learn in the war, DinStL?" (meta)


by Disgusted in St Louis on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 03:06:52 AM EST

Death By Meta (none / 0)

Talk about death by meta, this whole damn diary is meta done to death.  DailyKos is huge and capable of mustering quite a heave ho when it wants/needs to.  When its bored, well it is bored.  The part of DailyKos I miss the most (and I'm there every day) is Kos himself.  Since he got involved in his new stuff, he isn't around like he use to be.   While I drop by MyDD to read the information posted, there is a self-congratulatory and insider tone to this site that I find meta and off putting.  So before we start taking each other apart, I think we ought to celebrate the differences.


Follow the money
by dkmich on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 07:02:36 AM EST

Re: Death By Meta (none / 0)

Shades of matt stoller.. he is passionate but I too wish he would sort of grow up.  My favorite here is Jon Singer but I guess because my pet causes are usually the judiciary.


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 07:20:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Stoller (none / 0)

Stoller makes mistakes, but he never makes the same mistake twice.

Recently he has been on fire with great writing.


by Alice Marshall on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Be what you want to become (3.00 / 1)

I hate this meta stuff. Of course, that doesn't ever stop me from commenting on it.

A long time ago in a very obscure place I learned a few lessons.

The best way to direct the culture of a site is to be what you want to become.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:46:39 AM EST

One or two points... (none / 0)

The first thing is that, so far as I'm aware (and I've looked!), this site is unique in the quality and quantity of pieces on political process, and their clean presentation.

And, as Chris said, this comes from the (I think) common perception among participants of the place as somewhere to work, rather than socialize.

Such that the folks here are friendly (most of the time!) without ever pretending that they're friends.

Let's face it, the subjects of the pieces here are complex enough without worrying about additional dimensions of am I saying the right thing? or will this make me less popular? or is this going to please the FP-ers?

My view is, this is the most exciting time for observers of political process (certainly legislative process, my area of interest) in a good long while.

And here one can exchange views and ideas day by day as Congress does its work.

As for DKos, it clearly satisfies a need - but it's not my need, so I'm happy to leave it alone.

My only thought on MyDD is perhaps readers (some commenters here and in earlier similar pieces have said as much) are somewhat daunted, and reluctant to comment on the stuff they read here.

Which is a great pity, and something we might think of addressing.

I think it may follow from the very fact that we are basically a place for work, and the tone is not of the sort of casual party-style conversation that one can drift into.

Personally, I feel I need to be challenged: the last thing I want to do is carry on in ignorance of a key fact!

Plus, if something's not clear in what I write, that could either be just poor expression or (quite often) the substance has been poorly thought out. In both cases, it's something I want to address.

As a latecomer, I'm not really sure how things got how they are; but I'm glad that they are.

(And I've been very impressed by the hiring of Nancy Scola, who brings a distinctive voice and different interests, but enriches the blend without changing its basic qualities.)

You might say I like it here...


by skeptic06 on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:48:03 AM EST

The social part (none / 0)

of DKos is in some measure an attempt to overcome the lack of liberal social institutions.

This has two dimensions:

  1.  The political junkie dimension - let's face it, to be a political junkie outside of DC is to be a bit of an oddball
  2.  The liberal left dimension - many liberals feel very isolated - DKos helped address that isolation.


by fladem on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 11:54:12 AM EST

fladem (none / 0)

If you talk to some of the old time Democratic pols in places like Baltimore and elsewhere, one of the things they tell you they miss the most is the old time Democratic social halls that they had in neighborhoods and communities. Political activism and social events occurred in the same hall routinely -- throughout much of the 20th century. It was really with the advent of television in every home that people began to stay at home more and not going to their local hall.

So while Chris writes that the two don't really mix, he's ignoring part of Democratic Party history.

That said, I think the sites like Daily Kos fill that void. However, as Chris points out, people are willing to be much more insulting -- and much more willing to see slights where none were intended -- when it is online.


by Carnacki on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 04:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

building blogosphere (3.00 / 1)

What saddens me is that bloggers still have not worked out the power of RSS to build audience. There are thousands and thousands of small blogs doing great work. We need RSS readers to give them a collective audience they can never achieve individually. Lefty Blogs was the first to realize this, giving local bloggers a statewide audience and offering an easy way to promote one another with the Lefty Blog Wire.

I am sorry that RSS readers have not been used to group together issue oriented blogs, such as economic blogs, or labor blogs, or enviromental blogs, and so forth and so forth.

In the future we could have links to our favorite RSS readers instead of blogrolls, thus greatly increasing the reach of individual bloggers.


by Alice Marshall on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 12:13:43 PM EST

I was the one that asked the question at ykos (none / 0)

"can online communities be used as models for offline communities"

the answer was obviously no.

JUST AS OBVIOUS... kos called himself mayor (non-democratic) of dkos just MOMENTS LATER.

we use the frame, to suit us, but ignore the responsibilities.

that can never work for a host of known reasons.


by pyrrho on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 08:52:37 PM EST


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