On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons

Back in 2004, Rush Limbaugh argued that the Clintons were giving money to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, only that it had been laundered three or four ways so it was impossible for anyone to ever find the proof. There is nothing unusual about a claim such as this, since the Clintons have been accused of some of the weirdest conspiracy shit you will ever see. In fact, these accusations have been going on so long, that assigning strategic motives that are beyond even Gary Kasparov's grasp to even the simplest statement made by either a Clinton or one of her advisors, has become utterly mainstream.

I bring this up because some people have pointed out that I may have misread the Hotline piece cited in my article on the strategic flaws of the "anti-Hillary" earlier today. Fair enough. It is entirely possible that I did misread the article. However, I actually came up with the idea to write about how a two candidate race would greatly favor Hillary Clinton over the past few days when looking at polling data on second place choices, not because of the Hotline article. Had the Hotline piece never been published, or if I had never seen it, I would have written something extremely similar anyway. My basic point about what I see as a deeply flawed concept or strategy or the "anti-Hillary" stands. In every single state, both Edwards and Obama are closer to Clinton than either would be if only one of the two of them were in the race. Her worst case scenario is if both of them get stronger, or if third strong challenger emerges. She would be much better off in a two-person race.

But I want to address something else about the Hotline piece, specifically how it posits the Clintons as being about the most devious people who ever existed. Based on a single statement James Carville made on a radio program, Marc Ambinder divines the following insane scenario:
[T]he more Dems pay attention to Al Gore, the less they'll pay attention to Sen. Barack Obama.

The more there's talk of a Gore run, the more impetus there is for a Draft Gore movement, the more pressure Gore feels compelled to run, the more excited some Democrats become, about a Gore run, etc, the more they compare Gore and his resume to the rest of the field...

Do Sen. Clinton's strategists believe that Gore will actually run? Probably not -- he'd be hard to beat, as they'll acknowledge. But the more the Democratic activist base thinks about Gore, the more they'll compare the ideal -- Mr. Gore -- with the hope -- Mr. Obama, and presumably, they'll find Obama lacking in substance.
What what what? This is batshit crazy. Why on earth is the amount of attention non-Clinton candidates receive a zero sum game? And how deep inside the heads of not only the Clinton camp, but also inside the heads of netroots activsts, does Ambinder think he is? Let's sum up what Ambinder it proposing here: he thinks that Clinton's camp thinks that they reduce activist support for Barack Obama by raising Gore's profile because activists will think that Obama looks unattractive compared to Gore if James Carville says on Don Imus that Gore is likely to run. Next, I suppose, we will be hearing from Hotline on Call that Hillary Clinton herself killed Vince Foster.

Perhaps, even though I can't think of one, there are ways in which the Clinton camp would benefit from circulating rumors about Gore running, even though they are convinced he won't run. The most common idea people have floated is that it could reduce activist support for the other candidates, especially Obama, as activists are tied down into drafting Gore. I really don't buy that one. If, ten and a half months out, a candidate is bringing in some of the largest crowds we have seen in a Democratic primary ever, then I think the Clinton camp needs to find a new way to reduce Obama's activist support.

So, I may have misread the Hotline piece, but I still think it is a bit of insane contortionism that tries to assign motives and strategies where none exist. It certainly wouldn't be the first time pundits have assigned bizarre, reality-bending motives to the Clintons. How about a more straightforward explanation? The fact is that there are droves of Democratic activists who still think Gore is going to run. Personally, I think they are deluding themselves, but I still know a bunch of them. Given that there are lots of people who still think that Gore is going to run, instead of accusing the Clinton camp of bizarre behind the scenes posturing, isn't it far--hell, galacticly--more likely that James Carville is one of those activists? Of course, if insiders were not assigning three extra layers of deviousness to the Clintons, then they wouldn't be doing their jobs.



Display:


In early 2004 (none / 0)

there was rampant PURE speculation from some on the right and some on the left that the Clinton's didn't want Kerry to win so Hillary would have an open seat.

seemed nuts but it was out there


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:37:38 PM EST

Re: In early 2004 (none / 0)

Well let's put this way, she didn't want Dean to win...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I would rank the neo-cons as the most devious people who have existed in modern times.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:40:11 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

And there are some in the Democratic party too...

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/comm entary/la-op-heilbrunn28may28,0,6411415. story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:48:51 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

The Clintons want you to say that.


by BriVT on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:42:24 PM EST

Disclaimer (3.00 / 1)

OK ... I realized after I tossed off that one-liner that the level of crazy-ass Clinton thinking might lead someone to think I was actually serious there.

I wasn't. Just joking. I think. Unless the Clinton's got to me after I wrote that ...


by BriVT on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:45:10 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Sadly, you have to allow for the possibility that the most obvious sarcasm resonates in the soul, or whatever passes for one, in the heart of some conspiracy theorist these days. Sigh.  Kinda' takes the fun out of political satire; like the faux ridiculousness one sees daily on Fox taken seriously by it's own creators.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:58:26 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I do hope you are not talking about my sarcasm... ?  Frankly, sarcasm keeps me sane when the I learn the depths our politicans are prepared to go.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 01:14:06 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I think we all need the relief of the lighter side of cynicism, sometimes, especially these days.  There should be a special award for Jon Stewart besides the Emmy for keeping us all on life support through these dark times.

Hey, incidentally have you seen Seymour Hersh's latest piece in the New Yorker?  It is a penetrating and labyrinthine read.  The upshot of it is the US government, through various proxies, is financing Sunni insurgents in various countries in the Middle East to counter the Shi'ite threat.  Yes, al-Qaeda allies, among others.  Interesting is an understatement.  Hersh actually got an interview with Nasrallah, the Hezbollah head, for the article.  Hmmm.  I know you have an interest in this stuff so thought I would take the opportunity to pass it on.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 01:33:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Thanks... Yes... wow there's a lot to get my head around...

Also, been going back over his April piece...
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact /070305fa_fact_hersh

Do you anything about Patrick Clawson (WINEP)?  He's going to be speaking at the AIPAC conference... Seems to have quite a reputation around the Iran & Nukes think tank circuit as a hardliner.

Do you know if there is any connection with him and the DLC or even Hillary campaign by chance?


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 08:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

sorry "Do you 'know' anything about"


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 08:01:56 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Interestingly, this connection you are asking about not only gives links back to the Clinton administration and Brookings but illustrates the tenuous links via policy-makers of the Clinton and both Bush administrations.  Martin Indyk, founder of the WINEP in 1985, started his career as Research Director with the pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC in 1982.  He was special assistant to Clinton, and in a senior position in the Clinton NSC as well as two stints as Ambassador to Israel.  He is also a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

The WINEP is a rogue's gallery of former dimplomats and neo-conservative theorists.  Several current and former members of WINEP have served in senior positions in the administrations of Presidents George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.  From Wikipedia members of its Board of Advisors include Warren Christopher, Lawrence S. Eagleburger, Alexander Haig, Max Kampelman, Samuel W. Lewis, Edward Luttwak, Michael Mandelbaum, Robert McFarlane, Martin Peretz, Richard Perle, James Roche, George P. Shultz, R. James Woolsey, and Mortimer Zuckerman although these are largely figureheads.  

There is another Hersh article quoting Clawson which describes him as having close links back to the Bush administration but from what we see here I am not sure that would exclude current Clinton connections.  That exhausts my knowledge and I would like to know more.  Kinda' makes you wonder who is really running the country sometimes, doesn't it?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 02:13:40 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I'll give you more that doesn't smell right (to me anyways)...  I have a feeling you know all this :) -- but if you can argue me down, please do... because I'm also getting to the point -- wondering "who (or what) is really running the country".

Via the Code Pink video (Mar 7, 2003) it has Hillary saying she has "studied the situation for over a decade" in Iraq...  Again the question comes up, where was she getting her information, and advice?  Certainly not from Scott Ritter...  From the time of the PNAC letter to Bill and the Iraqi Liberation Act makes you wonder who she was listening to.  Was she more hawish than Bill?

Before Bob Woodward's book came out, and before the use of force vote, CBS had an 'Exclusive' -- that after 9/11 Iraq invasion plans were underway. If CBS got the leak beginning of Sept, when did the 'leak'? start circulating around Congress?

Sept 4, 2002

Plans For Iraq Attack Began On 9/11 -- Exclusive: Rumsfeld Sought Plan For Iraq Strike Hours After 9/11 Attack

(CBS) CBS News has learned that barely five hours after American Airlines Flight 77 plowed into the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq -- even though there was no evidence linking Saddam Hussein to the attacks..."

Remember the UK journalist Neil MacKay...

Oct 6, 2002:

Sunday Herald (Neil MacKay): "Five months before September 11, the US advocated using force against Iraq ... to secure control of its oil. Neil Mackay on the document which casts doubt on the hawks

It is a document that fundamentally questions the motives behind the Bush administration's desire to take out Saddam Hussein and go to war with Iraq.

Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century describes how America is facing the biggest energy crisis in its history. It targets Saddam as a threat to American interests because of his control of Iraqi oilfields and recommends the use of 'military intervention' as a means to fix the US energy crisis...

Patrick Clawson crops up here too: "Strategic Energy Policy Challenges for the 21st Century."

He's been v. busy recently...

Debating a Nuclear Iran: Patrick Clawson of The Washington Institute for Near East Policy says it would be "doable" to destroy key nodes in Iran's nuclear program.

* Transcripts *

and here:

Deterring and Containing Iran: A Near-Inevitable Task: On June 8, 2006, Patrick Clawson testified before the House Armed Services Committee's hearing on U.S. policy options toward Iran.

Remembering that Hillary has been up till now seemingly 'right' of Bush on Iran.  Clawson seems to have been in with AIPAC, possibly with the PNAC'ers?? E.g. military action in the region to 'stablize' the oil flow?

So, where is she... AND the rest of the DLC...?

Were the DLC and Hillary duped about the intelligence as they try to tell us? OR, did they think the regime change was going to be a cakewalk?  OR, did they think - screw it! we are the Military Industry Complex, the PNAC'ers and Netanyahu are right and it IS possible, it IS necessary to grab the oil and business from the Chinese and Russians?


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 04:15:57 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Holy Cow... from your New Yorker article:

Flynt Leverett, a former C.I.A. analyst who until last year served on the National Security Council and is now a fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy,

This is the same guy who recently leaked about the 2003 Iranian letter, the guy Steve Clemons (thewashingtonnote) was speaking to.  Didn't know he is now with Saban. Saban and the Clintons are tied at the hip...

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archive s/001829.php

Yikes...

Thanks for giving me that article...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 04:23:55 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

First, former Bush administration National Security Council and CIA official Flynt Leverett and former State Department Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson will be sharing "more" on the question about the provenance of the March/April 2003 alleged Iranian negotiations proposal that was presented to the United States via Swiss diplomatic channels.
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archive s/001935.php

On video... haven't watched it yet...
http://www.newamerica.net/events/2007/u_ s_iran_relations


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 04:48:27 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I think some people here need a drink, I'll pour you some Internet Vodka. I know people want political gossip but let's not go crazy and analyze everything about Clinton and Obama. BTW, Obama is the anti-Hillary candidate, he has mainstream appeal and he has fundraising money as well.

*Just Say NO To Obama***


by bsavage on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:54:32 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Whereas, you, on the other hand, are being serious.  Can you think of any way in which Obama's campaign detracts from Hillary's if in fact they are applying different strategies.  Isn't the fact they are both running, and Edwards too, a benefit to the party as a whole.  Whose side are you on?  Besides Hillary's, obviously.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:01:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (3.00 / 1)

I am glad all of our candidates are running.  I have my problems with Obama (already discussed) and Edwards (already discussed,) but would support either wholeheartedly, should the rank-and-file Democrat choose one of them.  Unfortunately, too many haters here state that they would never vote for a Clinton, they would actively work against her, try to sabotage her, let the GOP win.   That is the attitude we are dealing with here from more than just a few.   Pretty sad, actually.  

The only candidate I have major problems with right now is Biden.  All others are, in the end, a plus for a revitalized party.  


by georgep on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:28:43 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

George many of us have deep ideological differences with Clinton. Some of us remember the damage the Clinton's did to the party in the 90's, when they allowed the entire infrastructure to go to shit in and decided that bashing their supporters was a fun way to govern.

To put it bluntly George, we remember that they can't be trusted. They will tell us what we want to hear in the primary and throw us under the bus in the general. That's something none of you have really challenged. We have a choice between a large number of candidates who would be good Democratic presidents, and a candidate that will govern Center-Right. What has she done to earn our support? Why do her supporters keep demanding that we simply give it to her?


by SoulTim on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 02:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (3.00 / 1)

I beg to differ.  I just came from Dem Underground where someone was asking that very question.  If you are an Obama supporter and Gore got in, would you switch.  That was the second I saw.  The first was a poll of who you support: Gore or Obama.
So, I don't think it is that off the wall.  People on the netroots are actually thinking this way.   And there are plenty who will not chose anyone because they are waiting for Al and go bats at any little sign they imagine he makes.
So, yes, I can see the clintons and Carvelle thinking of doing stuff like that.  They read the blogs enough to know how some people are and it's more than a couple thinking that way.
by vwcat on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 06:57:06 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

You are too intent on seeing trees thru the forest.  If you insist on parsing the polls, which I understand is one of the joys of your life, then please compare and contrast HRC's negatives to her prez support. The anti-Hillary sustains itself because her negatives are so high. At this early early stage isn't it trends we are looking for not absolutes?


by aiko on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:02:25 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Look at her numbers amongst democrats. Her negatives are amongst republicans who, I assume, won't actually be voting in the democratic primary.


by kundalini on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:08:46 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Exactly.  This whole "negatives" talk is nothing but hogwash.  The opposite is true amongst Democrats.  She has the lowest negatives of all 3 candidates amongst Democrats.  Poll after poll confirms that.  Should that not be the discussion, then?


by georgep on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:30:59 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

As I said a day or two ago, I talked to people who work at a union, and they said their members are saying a Hillary endorsement will mean trouble.  A lot of their usually reliable people say that they cannot vote for her.
Its unfortunate.  She's not actually that bad on the issues.  She's generally pretty good.  Or, I should say, her record in the senate is not that bad, and actually pretty good.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:41:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (3.00 / 1)

Well, I'm looking at the Diageo/Hotline poll linked on the MyDD page a couple days ago right now. It's the only applicable poll I know of off the bat.

Looking at it, it is true that Hillary Clinton has high positive ratings among Democrats.

But only among Democrats. I mean, it's not terribly surprising that she's positive among Democrats and negative among Republicans, of course, so let's just ignore that for now. The interesting number to me here is her ratings among independents, and there she has 50% negative  unfavorability and 43% positive. This is by FAR the highest unfavorability among independents of the three Democratic presidential candidates mentioned--  John Edwards had 42% favorable to 17% unfavorable, Obama had 49% favorable to 17% unfavorable. In terms of just the election, it probably doesn't matter how much a candidate is liked by Republicans. But Independent votes do matter.

Meanwhile, you say that Hillary Clinton has "the lowest negatives of all 3 candidates" among Democrats. At least according to this poll, Clinton has 14% negative from Democrats, Edwards has 15% negative from Democrats, and Obama has 7% negative from Democrats. Of course, Obama and Edwards also had fewer positives than Clinton, but if we just throw out the people who haven't formed or didn't give an opinion and look at only people who responded one way or the other, 17% of responding Democrats had a negative impression of John Edwards, 15% of responding Democrats had a negative impression of Clinton, and 10% of responding Democrats have a negative impression of Obama.

These aren't particularly intense numbers, and of course support is pretty soft at this stage. But just from the first poll I checked the numbers definitely reject the idea Hillary "has the lowest negatives" among Democratic candidates by ANY way of measuring-- in fact, they indicate Edwards and Clinton have about the same unfavorability among people with an opinion, and Obama's similar number is slightly less. Meanwhile, you haven't given us any information to indicate that your assertion she has the lowest negatives are true.

Either way, leaving data for a moment, my personal view of the situation is this: She's got a small, but vocal group within the Democratic base who don't approve of her, and from everything I've seen personally this group seems to be concentrated among people whose objections are ideological-- i.e. she's too DLC, not lefty or netrootsy enough or something. Meanwhile as soon as you leave the confines of the Democratic base she has no particular traction and is in fact is viewed fairly negatively. It looks to me so far like Hillary's core of support is going to be, basically, among the Democratic party faithful-- the people who are Democrats for the sake of being Democrats, but maybe not so much because they strongly believe in anything. This may be enough to win an election assuming the Republicans really flub with their candidate, but if nothing else, is this what the Democrats need right now? The Democrats are in a state where they really need to engage in party building-- the national pendulum is starting to swing the other way, and the more people that can be coaxed out of that Independent column into the Democratic one the better. Picking a candidate who appeals to Democrats and pretty much just Democrats (or most of the Democrats, at least) doesn't help that; nor does picking a candidate who is (as Hillary Clinton is, in my opinion) more about politics as usual and more of the same than about standing for anything or inspiring anyone. The Democrats need to be trying to figure out how to move forward into the next Decade, not trying to recapture the 90s...


by mcc on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:23:51 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Look, it is pretty simple. HRC wins by bringing new voters to the polls. If she can't do that then she loses. Edwards has to swing independents and the odd republican because he is, in relative terms, a dull candidate (i.e. few new voters will turnout). Obama is perhaps a mixture. He is likely to bring some additional young voters to the polls (would be more if young people actually voted) and could swing independents. The chances of him winning republican votes are minimal.

Quinnipiac's thermometer rankings (from Nov) are 77-12 for HRC amongst democrats, Edwards 56-13, Obama 51-7.

I don't buy your party building notion. If HRC brings the most new voters to the polls that helps democrats long term. Single women will come out in big numbers for HRC. The problem with independents is that they are exactly that. They decide that Bush is more their sort of guy rather than Gore and the nation is doomed.

Get as many people as possible to win and the left wins more times than not. Try to persuade independents and our record to date has not been good.


by kundalini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 06:16:08 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

The link for Quinnipiac is:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?Rele aseID=990&What=&strArea=;&st rTime=0

It was discussed at MyDD here:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/11/27/101 918/89


by kundalini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 06:17:29 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

The last sentance should have read "Get as many people as possible to vote"


by kundalini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 06:18:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

spot on thinking!


by timlhowe on Fri Mar 02, 2007 at 10:56:05 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Of course there is some statistical noise.  But at least three other polls show the unfav./fav. ratings differently.   Amongst Democrats Edwards has 31% and 24%, respectively, while Clinton and Obama are somewhere at 15% and 17%.  Also, look at the last ABC/WaPo poll, which shows Edwards unfavorables going up dramatically, to 39% (with 46% favorables) a 17% swing towards the unfavorable position from the last ABC/WaPo poll.

Today's TIME poll shows:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/ 0,8599,1594847,00.html

In a general election, the poll showed that a Clinton versus McCain contest would be a virtual dead heat, while she would lose to Giuliani by 3%. Obama, according to the poll, would beat McCain by 4 points; but would trail Giuliani by 5.

No mention of Edwards (they have not published the data sheet yet,) but right now she is very competetive with the top Republican running, Giuliani, basically a statistical tie.  That bodes well for the general election, she obviously has broad support that goes beyond just the Democratic base.

 Another factor that many Democrats will come to adopt over time IMHO:  Giuliani will be a formidable candidate and we should not underestimate him.  Sure, his negatives will go up when some of his stories are dusted up and displayed on the bookcase again, but he will have a strong presence.  I can't see a candidate other than Clinton hold onto New Jersey, perhaps even New York for the Democrats.   It will be a dogfight.  I believe Clinton is the best candidate for us against Giuliani.  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 08:58:28 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

George, my fear is McCain. Truly, honestly, deeply. Guliani got suckered into this with high numbers, but his team is weak and McCain's is experienced, effective and mean.

Plus, the Chris Matthews, Imus, Russert cabal will pimp him without quarter.


by timlhowe on Fri Mar 02, 2007 at 11:01:14 AM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

It looks to me so far like Hillary's core of support is going to be, basically, among the Democratic party faithful-- the people who are Democrats for the sake of being Democrats, but maybe not so much because they strongly believe in anything.

This is the most ridiculous statement I've seen yet.  Who are these Democrats that you speak so disparagingly about.  Are they the uneducated, uninformed, masses who apparently support her.  I have no problem with name calling and strong advocacy for a given candidate, but to imply that an entire group of people  with a different viewpoint is lacking in strong beliefs is presumptive, insulting and elitist.


by Kingstongirl on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 07:29:50 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

My ex-gf is an economist.  She works on ag/environmental policy and she's been really interested in farm practices.  This morning, she was telling me that during Bill's time as governor, Hillary was aligned (through her law firm, investments, board memberships, etc.) with virtually every Arkansas eco-bad guy out there.  This came up in the course of a discussion on the recent Harpers article on Walmart (which noted that Hillary sat on the Walmart board for a decade or so).  Now, knowing all this, my ex-gf (from California) said that she'll still vote for Hillary before any other candidate.  She'll vote for Hillary before even Gore, who she considers to be an American hero with no contemporary equivalent (like Nadar before 2000).

Now why is she so pro-Hillary?

Because HRC is just a total American icon.  It's like Schwarzenegger for Republicans or Michael Jordan for folks in their late 30s.  She represents something a lot bigger than herself.  Plus she's a woman.

I'd love it if Obama could somehow take her out and then somehow win the presidency, I think I'd probably weep joy on election night.  But damn, it's not going to happen.

I concur with Chris - HRC doesn't even need to bother with stoking the Gore rumors.  She's going to roll to this thing because there are a lot more Democrats like my ex-gf than there are like me.


by island empire on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:17:49 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (3.00 / 1)

The arc of history bends toward justice.  Have faith.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:31:02 PM EST
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Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I love that arc that bends.  


by vwcat on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:44:44 PM EST
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Me too, but we gotta' reach up and pull on it together, don't we?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:51:02 PM EST
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Thanks, I have the faith.  Having the Clintons back in the White House, rolling back all the crap that the blasted Bush administration messed up, will make it almost feel like the last 8 years were just a horrible nightmare.   Except that Chelsea is all grown-up.

An Arc of history, indeed.  :-)


by georgep on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:39:35 PM EST
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Well, good on ya' George.  Sometimes it is more important to believe in something then the the something you believe.  I am delighted to hear you at least allowing for the possibility of framing the discussion in terms of faith once in awhile and am content to know that if Hillary wins you, at least, will be glad of it.  She would be happy to have such a loyal supporter, I reckon, and rightly so.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:45:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

COuld you point me to some examples of Barack talking about faith or religion, or essentially what you've been referring to for a while?


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

The classic piece is the Call to Renewal keynote address last year.  Caused quite a stir at the time, not least of which here at myDD, some of our front-pagers nearly burst a blood vessel over it.  George and I had a fracas over it a few weeks ago.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Thanks, Shaun.
I'm personally without religion, but really had few qualms with it.  Most of it makes me appreciate him more.  I wish he always talked like this.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 10:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

No worries.  Progressives got very defensive and testy about it, I didn't see any harm in it much at all.  Seems refreshing to have a Democrat that is fluent and confident in that area.  

But please, for pity's sake, don't get George started on it again.  We ended up arguing about for two days in a stale diary like a coupla' old geezers in a bar after closing time.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 10:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

criticism of Obama's speech (none / 0)

Progressives got very defensive and testy about it

An unfair generalization.  There was also a lot of thoughtful blogging on Obama's speech.  One of my favorites was a blogger who made the effort to write one article critical of, and another article in defense of, various parts of Obama's speech.  Well worth reading.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 11:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: criticism of Obama's speech (none / 0)

Cool, thanks, I didn't mean to generalise quite so thoughtlessly and enjoyed both of those links.  I had a bit of trouble with the pledge of allegiance comment in the original speech, otherwise didn't get to ruffled by any of it.  Both of those critiques were thoughtful and made sense to me.  

It's an interesting topic and makes sense for progressives to take ownership of these issues.  Cheers.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:14:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: criticism of Obama's speech (none / 0)

I wouldn't call myself non-religious (both of my kids are baptized in the Catholic Church and are going through the confirmation/communion process,) I just prefer religion to not be made a focus in the political arena, that's all.   Obama chided other Democrats for that choice, which made me go "Who is he to tell others how to incorporate their personal religion into their public lives."  It also makes me skeptical how he would apply this disagreement I have with him as president.   But, there are many things I agree on with Obama, just a few that make him currently my third choice (behind Clinton and Richardson.)   Note that after reflecting on the situation and various commentary I have come around to elevating Obama ahead of Edwards in my personal check list.  :-)  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 09:22:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: criticism of Obama's speech (none / 0)

No worries, George.  I was just kidding, really, and I found our discussion on the subject fruitful and rewarding.

I am certainly not suggesting you are irreligious, far from it.  I believe that ones religious beliefs are a sacred and private matter between themselves and whatever they believe in, a right guaranteed by our Constitution but otherwise uninformed by the state.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 03:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I concur with Chris - HRC doesn't even need to bother with stoking the Gore rumors.  She's going to roll to this thing because there are a lot more Democrats like my ex-gf than there are like me.

Not sure I agree that Hillary is inevitable.  Keep in mind that all of these polls showing HRC with a huge lead are national polls.  In other words, they are basically meaningless.  The only thing that matters is what happens in Iowa.  As was the case in 2004, whoever wins in Iowa will receive the equivalent of about $150 million in free media overnight.  His or her face will be on the cover of every single newspaper the next morning.  And, for the most part, the primary voters in other states will vote for whoever Iowa tells them to vote for.  

I don't know what's going to happen in the future obviously, but at this stage Iowa is hardly a lock for Hillary.  Edwards and Obama are going to campaign like hell there.  And if Edwards wins, it should be noted that the next caucus is in Nevada--friendly territory for him.  If HRC loses Iowa and Nevada, after months and months of hype and expectations, her financial backers will start throwing their support behind a "winner" and she will be on the downslide.

Like I said, I have no damn idea what's going to happen a year from now, but it's not hard to envision a scenario where someone besides HRC wins the nomination.


by Will Graham on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 07:42:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

The current picture of a "strong lead" is a mix of national AND state polls.  If you put all state polls conducted side by side you get a very strong Clinton lead, overall.   The national polls give a broad preference picture, the state polls go into the state-to-state business, and in both cases the overall lead is there.   The only candidate who has some traction overall is Obama, who draws even or gets close in a few states.  However, Edwards has done well in Iowa so far, which keeps his head above water somewhat.  A win there is good for a bounce of about 10%.  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 09:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Yes, Ambinder's post is clearly insane.  People have this tendency to want to read deeper and deeper into every campaigns motives for everything.  We saw a fair amount of that in Iowa, with all sorts of people suggesting that Vilsack had ulterior motives for running and then again that he had other reasons than his stated one (money) for dropping out.  It's ridiculous.


Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:29:54 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Managed "care", Nafta, the WTO, Walmart.  No wonder Scaife & Murdoch have no problem with Hillary.


by Garret on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 07:47:37 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I can't keep track of the arguments any more.  We shouldn't nominate Hillary because the Right will smear her like there's no tomorrow, but we also shouldn't nominate Hillary because the Right sees her as one of them and has no problem with her.  Okay.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 08:13:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

In your own bizarre way, you've nailed it.

It's kind of like how Rupert Murdoch sells you the Simpsons and Family Guy on his regular broadcasting channel and then uses his news channel to sell you on the war on christians and family values.

Murdoch will be perfectly find with Hillary even as his news outfit treats her as a moral outrage.  

Nothing contradictory here at all.  


Booman Tribune.
by BooMan on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (3.00 / 1)

Brilliant.  It's like they spend all this money trying to beat her, for no real reason.

Whereas if we nominate someone like Obama or Edwards who would truly be a threat to their agenda, they won't throw nearly as much slime at them.

Truly fascinating.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:18:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

LMAO.  Tis true.  An amazing line of argumentation.  Forget logic, suspend logic.  Just have fun with it.  Then, and only then, can you call yourself a true "progressive."  

Blech.


by georgep on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Still living in the Clinton years are we../!

Get with the program, she's been making 'friends' with the republicans over the last six years...?

You've been duped my friend...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Did you read the original comment?  She is supposedly highly disliked by Republicans while at the same time she supposedly is the most liked by Republicans.   You guys need to get your attacks straightened out a little bit.  From here it looks like an illogical mess.  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 09:29:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Yes, I did read the original argument.

She liked by the republican elites, hated by the republican drones.  Dick Morris plain hates her, and Rupert Murdoch thinks out of all the corporates running at the moment she'll have to do.

...and Fox News is there to put on the show.

Even funnier, in a sick way IMO, Fox News calls her a liberal, (which she is far from), and this is actually helping her in the polls with the democrat drones who assume she IS a liberal and don't bother looking into what she really stands for.

So I agree with what appears an illogical mess from our ant colony position, but Rupert Murdoch knows exactly what he's doing.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 11:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I looked very intently into the records and speeches, and I believe you could not be more wrong.  She is clearly a [b]liberal,[/b] to what extent and intensity is open to discussion.  I happen to believe she is the more progressive candidate when compared to Edwards, on par with Obama.  And, yes, I dissected voting records as the most telling criteria, then current rhetoric.  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Give me a break!  Just read the copious amount of republican-lite crap on her DLC site!

She is a member you know, also in a leadership role.

She's pro-choice I'll give her that.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 05:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

So, the scoring sites just have it all wrong?  Her liberal record is rated at 97%, the exact same as Obama (with triple the length of service, at 6 yrs. vs. 2 yrs.) while Edwards' liberal record is lower, at 85%, I believe.   Do voting records mean anything to you?


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 06:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I can't be bothered to cut and paste my other post to you, explaining why HER votes (all cast while she was in the minority) doesn't prove her supposed "liberal" credentials.

Her activities within the DLC also need to be taken into account. The DLC is not Liberal!

Obama and Edwards are not members of the DLC.

I don't think Obama and Edwards are liberal either.  In fact, I don't describe myself as liberal, but they are certainly more trustworthy than Hillary is.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 06:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

it all depends on who you are talking about.

For many GOP activists the most important things are what kind of judges get appointed.  They'll oppose any Democrat will relatively equal fervor.

Hillary is acceptable, however, to a narrower group of people that are more concerned with free trade, an expansive military and forward leaning basing posture, the continued privatization of government work, and a basically pro-business deregulatory Democratic Party.  Murdoch fits in this group.  Hillary is perfectly fine with him.  


Booman Tribune.
by BooMan on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

It's true that Hillary would not upset the apple cart.  However, John Kerry would not have upset the apple cart either, nor would Al Gore.  Bill Clinton governed as a centrist, and he was the spawn of Satan to them.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 10:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

again, you have to ask yourself whom it was that saw Clinton as the spawn of Satan.  In the end, they tamed him quite nicely.  Just follow the money.  The DLC has filled the ranks of this Presidential race.  The game is already up.  Despite Bush there will be no populist backlash.  But the RW will gnash their teeth about socialism and secularism nonetheless.  It sells books and ads.  


Booman Tribune.
by BooMan on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:00:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

You sound v. dark... but yes there are things that I'm sure go well beyond our heads!

Tip of the iceberg I'm sure:

'Having Dinner with the Right People': Bill Clinton, Jack Kemp, and How Money Is Clouding the Ports Deal Debate
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-hu ffington/having-dinner-with-the-r_b_1689 7.html


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Money which is tip-jar change... Look how much they threw down the toilet to get Fox News up and running... Oh yeah!

Money you couldn't even dream of they would waste just to get exactly who will play their tune in the WH...!

Whhyy... $whore$ and military lover Hillary is 3/4 the way there...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

"Whhyy... $whore$ and military lover Hillary is 3/4 the way there..."

Yep, that really makes your argument look cogent and logical.  It is irrational hate like that which makes discussion with some here a waste of time.  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 09:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I guess you haven't visited opensecrets, or the FEC then?  You haven't seen how much she's been whoring for money?  Do you think they give her millions because they 'like' her, because she's strong woman?

gp. you never seem to get the nuances of posts, do you ever research Hillary's background?

I know you're not the only one, but I'm puzzled why some people on this board insist on protecting her as if she's some kind of hollywood celebrity, where you and others only mantra is that she has to, or she's the only one that can win the nomination.  You and others actually seem to believe she's a Democrat, I don't know maybe it's just because she has a (D) after her name?  I mean ok, this might be fan club love, but it's also blind love.

She's a corporate whore, she's not interested in you or the middle class little people, she's a war mongering opportunist... Her speeches don't even mention the rest of the world (accept Israel!) who believe me have just as much concern and interest over the ME.  I don't trust her with her scripted AIPAC sponsored saber rattling crap, and I'm sure the rest of the world won't either.  After 8 years of Bush and Cheney, I don't want a slightly less hostile version of them.

She's not the Hillary of the '90's, -- sorry to tell you this but it's true.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 11:36:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I apologize in advance, but you calling her "not a Democrat" pretty much disqualifies you from logical, interesting discussion, simply because it is ridiculous reasoning.  

Let go of the hate.  Don't support her, who cares if you do or not?  But don't hate indiscriminately, with such flimsy reasoning.  Look at the voting record, look at the statements she makes today.   The record and the rhetoric prove you wrong.  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

No, she's not a democrat, she panders, she struts, and what 'trangulating' statements are you referring to?

When you call Hillary a Democrat it's like when people try to convince me Lieberman's a liberal just by using HIS voting record?

Look, I'm not saying she's a 'crazy' republican, that's why she jumped ship with her corporate dollars and buddies into the Democratic party, but she's definitely got the republican-neoliberal-neocon-lite touch...  Military spending, outsourcing (don't want to upset the corporate lobbyists) coming way way over any social programs.  She also doesn't seem to like voting for any checks and balances on Bush either...

Her 'minority' voting record means v. little, especially with all the games and horsetrading that goes on in the Senate plays (e.g. the Alito closure vote, & Military Commissions Act).  Also, you have to remember the pact her buddies in the DLC made with the republicans to never to filibuster a bill, so really she never had to worry about whether her vote would upset the republicans or corporates.

Why do you keep going on about hate, I don't hate her, I just don't a republican/republican-lite representing the democratic ticket...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 05:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Boy, that was some ridiculous post.  

Well, ok, here is where I depart from this particular "discussion."  


by georgep on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 06:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

I guess you think Molly Ivins was ridiculous too?


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 06:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

What so wrong with Al Gore throwing his hat in the ring? Isn't his time due? This way Obama can gain more maturity within the Senate itself? We can all agree that the election in 2000 was stolen from Mr. Gore. I just believe a good healthy competition is why we have our system!


by democratsox33 on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (1.00 / 1)

Can someone explain to me how, in California, Ahnoooooode's private jet can spew out 90,000 lbs. of Carbon Dioxide, in one (1) round-trip to Washington D.C., while I spew out 50,000 lbs. of Carbon Dioxide in one (1) YEAR, and he continues to lecture me about cutting back because of Global Warming? What hypocrisy!!


by DfD on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:20:09 PM EST

Mutually exclusive! (none / 0)

If your can't reconcile those two beliefs, it is only because you are using your brain.  If you can just put logic entirely aside for a moment, then both of those beliefs can make perfect sense together.  


by francislholland on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:20:21 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

You're right! What the heck was I thinking?


by DfD on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:24:10 PM EST

Chris, Carville can't be one of the activists (none / 0)

because he works for the Clinton campaign.  Two doozies in a row today.  


by Yoshimi on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:26:01 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)


by Yoshimi on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:26:07 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

Why on earth is the amount of attention non-Clinton candidates receive a zero sum game?

Because the amount of media attention out there for the Democratic primary, if not totally fixed, doesn't expand proportionately to the number of candidates.  That's just how these things work.  

For an intense Edwards supporter like myself, the week after the Iowa primaries in 2004 was maddening.  My guy had finished second in Iowa, and all the media wanted to cover was Kerry vs. Dean.  Kerry and Dean had sucked all the oxygen out of the room, and Edwards couldn't get any attention until it was too late.  

That's generally how these things go.  There's only so much media attention available, and every column inch devoted to a possible Gore run is one that doesn't go to Edwards or Obama.  


by Neil the Ethical Werewolf on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 09:45:19 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early for this campaigning anyway!


by DfD on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 10:03:51 PM EST

Okay... (none / 0)

The point about the zero-sum game and Edwards and Obama not going to benefit from a consolidation of the anti-Hillary support is well taken. However, a few points about Carville, the Clintons, and talking up Gore:

(1) The version of the rumor that Carville is trying to keep the prospect of a Gore candidacy alive I know goes back to Dan Conley:

Let's boil this down to reality:

* Carville supports Hillary Clinton

  • Obama is making a hard and fast play for Hollywood money
  • An Al Gore entry into the race is the only thing preventing Obama from running the table on that money in this quarter.

So the supposed rationale is to prevent donors, not activists, from committing to Obama.

(2) I personally profess that I'll remain tepid in my support for Obama until I've given up on Gore running. Sorry but that's just the way it is. I don't have the faintest idea how many others like me are out there.

(3) Even supposing Carville's alledged strategy made no sense whatsoever that doesn't mean it's not his strategy. The guy is hopelessly overrated - you're actually may be giving him too much credit if you're arguing he wouldn't pursue a strategy you think is dumb.


Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!
by brainwave on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 11:08:48 PM EST

Re: On Assigning Insane Motives to the Clintons (none / 0)

The Bushman needs to be impeached, removed from office, jailed, and given conjugal visits with Bubba! How's that for The Bushman?


by DfD on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 11:57:13 PM EST

Netroots other than Hillary to win (none / 0)

But they dont like people or media to lie about Hillary or any Dems or even anybody for that matter for character assasination.


by jasmine on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:38:44 AM EST

When I saw the top of this post.. (none / 0)

When I read just the top of this post,  

"this post starts out with a quote from an obese, drug addicted second rate entertainer.."  

Thats as far as I got. Sorry chris.


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 08:39:04 AM EST

Chris Bowers Hidden Rationale (none / 0)

There is a distinct, and hidden rationale for Chris Bowers insistence on following the presidentials like a horse race, this early in the game.

And that is, that he is tied to the advertising revenue.  Although he will not publicly admit it, the reason for his contention - or, even if it is not his contention but just a gem that he has chosen to relay for his significant others - is that this gem  - namely "that more people in the race is better"

Really only translates to this..

"More advertising money is better"


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 01:14:20 PM EST

Re: Chris Bowers Hidden Rationale (none / 0)

The 2008 race started much earlier. The 2004 race actually never ended some like Edwards just kept their campaign going. All of the media including blogs is intensively covering the campaign because it is newsworthy.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 01:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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