for criticizing Dean

Matt-

This isn't surprising to me.  Here is how I put it yesterday.

If the top of the Democratic Party really was in touch with the bottom of the Democratic Party there is no way in a hundred years that Hillary Clinton would celebrate the 10th anniversary of FOX News and accept cash from Murdoch. There is no way that Harry Reid would choose FOX News to carry the Nevada debate. Prior experience should show them that FOX News doesn't give Democrats a fair shake....

...Reid, Hillary, and Murdoch probably all 'respect' each other and see each other as 'peers'. And that might be fine and understandable, seeing as they are all wealthy, successful, and powerful people. Nothing wrong with that. Except Murdoch runs a media empire that is ostensibly out to destroy Hillary and Reid, take away their power, and relegate them to the dustpin of history. Sorry...I'm not buying it. What we have here is as obvious as the disconnect between the family values trumpeted in FOX shows like The Simpsons and The Family Guy and the values espoused by loudmouths Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly. It's a bait and switch.

So...don't get me wrong...if we actually succeed in getting Nevada to drop FOX News from the debate it would be a huge move in the correct direction. It would be fantastic. It's worth trying...I guess. But sometimes it's better to choose your battles a little more carefully. If we get the higher echelons of the Democratic Party to suddenly declare FOX News a worthless propaganda outfit and to shun it...well...then I guess I've totally misjudged the state of American politics.

As far as I can see, when we get up to Reid and Hillary, the distance between the parties is about as broad as the distance on the couch between James Carville and Mary Matalin.

And we're right about this, too.

They're not going to change it now.  They're afraid of crossing Rupie and Roger. Nice way to CONTINUE looking like hapless wonks who understand policy, but only play political hardball on an intramural basis.

Now, let's see who in the Presidential field uses an opportunity to display independence and spine by taking a pass on the Fox Noise Soup Pot.

I agree...

The Clinton(s) of 7-14 years ago are not the Clintons of today.  And Murdoch is a significant player.  Murdoch is all about business, he's never been a rabid Clinton hater.  If the Clintons see HIS way, then he will help them on the way.

The UK has a longer history with Murdoch, but it's worth exploring how Blair's style, politics and FORTUNE changed after he got on-board with this news and power broker.

Hillary is CLEARLY shunning us, our pro-diplomacy stance in the ME, our push for universal health care, fair trade policies -- same as Blair.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/media/sto ry/0,12123,893370,00.html

Jeez, and just a day after I donated to the DNC, what a letdown.  We need to get Governor Dean in line on this.  I mean, why should Democrats donate to our party when they are enabling the other parties propaganda wing?

I seriously doubt Republicans would donate to the RNC if they began consorting with Dailykos or Mother Jones in an effort to do "outreach to liberals."  What a joke.

I guess the party in Nevada sees ITSELF as The "Democrat" Party. By failing to acknowledge the truth about Fox, they appear as the "Rodney Dangerfield" of politics, and with good reason!

Clinton signed away on the Telecommunications Act that allowed all this consolidation to the point where we have 5 communications companies.

It was a sweet symbiotic deal that left the people tuned into OJ all the time and Clear Channel preaching 24-7.

Big money matters. Party doesn't.

The people to pressure on this are the candidates, they're the ones who need our votes, so perhaps they can drop out or have an alternative debate.  Hillary can debate herself on her good friend rupert murdoch's channel.

I don't pretend to be a political strategist.  But it looks like we aren't going to win this.  So let it go.  And let's see what happens.

Seems to me that if they behave as expected, they'll only be proving our point in a very grand way.  That's good in the long run.  The candidates and party apparata learn a painful lesson, personally.  And we'll have even more arrows in our anti-Fox quiver.

If they behave contrary to our worst expectations, that's good too.

My nickel advice for the day.

It's a DEMOCRATIC primary.  Who cares what Republicans think about it?  The Democratic primary debates exist to serve Democratic voters in helping them make a decision in the Democratic primary.  Stop pandering to Republicans and start serving us, the members of the Democratic party.

... first, while Fox Noise may be watched by twice as many people across the average prime time slot, its long term trend is to lose audience share to CNN and MSNBC. At one time it was watched by more people than all other cable news networks combined. Now there are days when it loses the rating war for younger adults in the 8:45-9:00 slot to Countdown's Worst Person in the World.

So, is it in our interest to help them fight that trend, or not?

Too many Democratic politicians are still salivating when the ball rings, based on their Pavlovian conditioning in the days of Fox Noise Ascendant ... but those days are fading, financial quarter by financial quarter. The Democratic party's long term interest is in helping that trend along, and not in helping to stem it.

Should we start pressuring Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Clinton et al. to skip this debate in hopes of getting it cancelled?

Don't forget, Fox is the news programming delivered to our military overseas. All Fox, all the time, with all its bias...another example of Bush stacking the deck.

Dean?  Don't get me wrong, I worked my a*s off for Dean in '04.

More letters to the DNC guys?

He'll just run over say he's sorry again.

"said Thursday that while they may not think much of Fox's reporting, they want to reach out to viewers of the largest cable news network, one with double the number of prime-time viewers of CNN"

That is not ratifying FOX. Dean is prety much saying they may not think much of Fox's reporting. They just want to reach the viewership.

HOwever, I agree it is still a dumbass strategy for the same reasons you pointed out and Dean should be smarter than that. The last time I felt like shaking Dean was when he went on about how marijuana should not be legalized and gave some silly reasons.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!  You folks still don't get it.    This mentality is what helped John Kerry lose in 2004, by thinking he could win without campaigning at all in the South.  Things were so pathetic here in Tennessee, he didn't even have a state campaign operation here.  People would offer to buy the Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker right off the rear window of my car because you couldn't get one down here outside of a college campus.  (I'd got mine in Michigan!)

Something every campaign already knew even before Karl Rove reminded us of it was that you had to go after your opponent's greatest strength.  Does anyone want to make the argument that having Fox News Channel to amplify their messages isn't one of the greatest strengths of Republicans?  Why, then, should we not go after it and make it our own, get our messages on it, filtered or otherwise?

So you think Democrats can win elections while ignoring the cable news channel with the most viewers?  Rationalize it any way you want, but that attitude is just childish and unserious.  Not every Fox viewer is inclined to vote Republican, and not every Fox viewer is swayed by the messages that they may not even be media-savvy enough to be aware are being foisted on them.  These viewers can be persuaded to vote Democratic, and to ignore them is to say you don't want their votes.  Good luck with that strategy.  It's a strategy for losers.  I thought we were over that.

"...And one whose believability is much higher with Republicans than Democrats, according to a 2005 study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism."

Yeah, and so why have a Democratic debate on this network?

Are you morons seriously complaining about Fox News?  When liberals have every single other major news source in America - NY Times, LA Times, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, and just about every single major metropolitan newspaper?  Typical Liberal Mantra:  Free Speech Except When I Don't Agree With It.  

Get over yourselves.  Oh, so the Republicans have Fox News and talk radio.  What part of the media besides those two do liberals not have?

9/11 would have never happened on a Dems watch.

Republicans did have BOTH HOUSES and the Presidency, no?

This is about two things, for Fox:

1)  They'll slant it.  Not blatantly, but enough to cast all the Dems in a bad light.
2)  During the general election, they'll be able to claim, "Of course we're fair and balanced, we hosted the Democratic primary debate.  So when we tell you that Obama will let Osama kill your dear old Aunt Millie (Obama/Osama - those sound a like, think that's a coincidence?), you can go down and buy Millie's headstone right now, or you can vote for a Republican."

They did host a presidential debate in 2004 right?

So what is wrong with it?

MoveOn simply represents the sentiments of its members.  To blame MoveOn, Netroots or progressives for well earned hostility toward Faux News is practically akin to blaming a victim for being attacked.  Yes, MO helped us channel our disdain for this perplexing bout of stupidity but trust me, the sentiments they are hearing are very much our own and spontaneous as lightning...just needed a lightning rod.

My words to NV Dem. party via MoveOn:
---

Dear Nevada Democratic party:

I grew up in Reno and I can promise you, quite a few of us know crap when its offered as news. Don't tarnish the image of the party by having anything to do with Faux news.

If you guys happen to talk to Obama, thank him for me. He is not my favorite candidate at the moment but my estimation of him has certainly increased: he has more brains and backbone than you do.  Now Fox will just have to make up stuff about Barack since he won't give them access. [but then how would that be different from present Fox practices?]

It is clueless Dem moves like partnering with Fox that keep me registered as an independent.  

And here's a message you can pass on to your friends at Fox:

Dear network that keeps foxing up the news:
MoveOn is being too easy on you. If I could stand the constant ignorance, fear mongering and outright lies of some of your regularly featured news personalities , I would watch you just to see which sponsors to boycott.  You guys are out-and-out liars [or else you are a "news" organization that doesn't know which party Mark Foley belongs to.]

Yours in dead earnest revulsion,
...

Don't you think that if they backed out of the Fox News debate at this point, though, Fox News would simply run the "Why Democrats are wusses who are afraid to face Fox viewers" story instead of the debate, which would be worse for us than running the debate with some negative commentary attached to it would be?

Fox News sucks, but ignoring them won't make them go away and stop making shit up about us. They're going to do it if we don't go on there too, and then our voices won't get heard at all.

Howard Dean is finally wrong! Breaking news. He's been right about everything else.

Elephant ammunition on mice is about as clearheaded as using napalm for weed control.

I suppose it must be maddening to try and control the broadcast, but come hell or high water, MyDD Stoller attempts it at every corner. Good for him, and us, and me (Am I included? Sometime I wonder)! However to attack anyone and any politician who doesn't fit his personal interpretations of how people should act can come off contemptuous and shallow. Which, ironically, is the very same charges he tends to level on larger, national level democratic members.

When comments come in that argue for the bigger picture and call to hold back on the full assault, Stoller trains his guns and frames the individual (Klio) as the problem and then condemns the person as being responsible for why mainstream politicians do the things they do. Slippery slope artists rarely get me to slide, but I do tend to dig. To quote Stoller, the "pathetic lack of respect" in this current thread is defined by Stoller's attack on Klio. Abusive, accusatory, and manipulative: the very things one expects from the people Stoller proclaims his fight is against!

Brilliant tactical play is hard come by when the alleged defender becomes the aggressor. Like an alley fight, the person swings at anyone who is in reach. The risk is turning into a bitter street corner thug who intimidates his neighborhood. Plenty of fight and no foresight.

Take care,
Rob

Gov. Dean said "I don't comment on Fox News" that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge its existence.  As you know, Gov. Dean has appeared on Fox News many many times, and I didn't hear anything about it then besides things like "watch this video of Gov. Dean take out Fox News on "Fox News Sunday"  or something to that effect.  

The 50 state strategy IS about this.  The 50 state strategy isn't just about competing in every state, it is about sending out the same unified Democratic message in all 50 states, and to EVERY single American, even those who only watch Fox News.  

If you own a Nielsen ratings box, it's a good idea not to watch Fox News and contribute to their ratings, but otherwise there ARE many Americans who get their news from Fox whether we like it or not (and I hate it).  But the reality is we need to get our message out to everyone and through EVERY possible medium.  

As progressives, this is what we are about.  A strong and progressive Democratic message and the courage to say it to anyone, anywhere.  That is what we are about.  This isn't like us.

  I am one of Howard Dean's biggest supporters, but boy is he WRONG about this. Especially considering his earlier (accurate) comment about Fox "News".

 I just hope it's simply a momentary lapse of reason, and not a symptom of something more sinister -- toeing the establishment line to appease the Hillary crowd.

 If Howard gets co-opted, the Democratic Party is dead in the water.

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