Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama

(cross-posted at Daily Kos)

In the past couple of days, there's been a verbal war of words between the campaigns of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama over the comments made by David Geffen, a media mogul in Los Angeles who held a fundraiser for Obama. What it essentially boils down to is this: the Clinton campaign has been waiting to take a shot at Obama, and they chose an idiotic issue to make their first move about. Clinton comes out looking quite thin-skinned, and Obama only gave one line to it the comment - one that makes sense to anyone who thinks about it:


"It's not clear to me why I'd be apologizing for someone else's remark"

As pontificator put it yesterday, Obama appears to have quite the rapid response team.

That being said, I was quite surprised to read what essentially amounted to grudge posts from both Markos and Jerome Armstrong that brought up Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs' past affiliation with a 527 called Americans for Health Care, Jobs, and Progressive Values. In truth, it was nothing more than a group that set up a vicious one-time hit job on Howard Dean with the infamous Osama bin Laden ad. Gibbs was the group's spokesperson during its short existence. While I can well understand why this would be offputting, the conclusions drawn from these posts are inexplicable. First, here's Markos:


Obama clearly dipped into the slimiest corners of DC to pluck out Gibbs.

Politics is dirty business, indeed. And there's no doubt that Obama's rapid response has been stellar.

But one can't help but get a little cynical hearing Obama talk about "changing the tone" and all that bullshit, while hiring a well-known smear-meister best known for his work trashing other Democrats.

First, this is ridiculous. Gibbs is not a 'well-known smear-meister'. I don't remember hearing anything about Robert Gibbs during the 2004 primaries. And I think it's fairly obvious that Kos didn't, either. If so, why did he wait until the controversy between the Clinton and Obama campaigns erupted? Gibbs has been working with Obama since he won the Democratic primary for the U.S. Senate seat in 2004. The fact of the matter is, there was plenty of time when Kos could have brought up Gibbs' past association between then and now. But it apparently was only opportune to do so now.

The next point is Kos' implication that Obama is a hypocrite for campaigning on 'changing the tone' while having a rapid response team that hits back. I can't honestly believe that such a claim can be supported in good faith. In politics, if a campaign doesn't hit back against ridiculous charges leveled at the candidate, it will only serve to embolden the opponent. We saw it happen with John Kerry's inability to adequately confront the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. More recently, we saw it happen with John Edwards' bungled response to 'Bloggergate'. Time is precious in politics, and hitting back aggressively at the kind of challenge that Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson was required. To refresh, let's see what Wolfson had to say:


"While Sen. Obama was denouncing slash and burn politics yesterday, his campaign's finance chair was viciously and personally attacking Sen. Clinton and her husband," Wolfson said in a written statement released by the Clinton campaign. "If Sen. Obama is indeed sincere about his repeated claims to change the tone of our politics, he should immediately denounce these remarks, remove Mr. Geffen from his campaign and return his money.

"While Democrats should engage in a vigorous debate on the issues, there is no place in our party or our politics for the kind of personal insults made by Sen. Obama's principal fundraiser," Wolfson added.

It's absurd to believe that Obama should return Geffen's money. If he were responsible for the negative things that people that have donated money to his campaign say about others, he'd be penniless. But not responding - or simply dismissing the claim - would be a disaster. By taking the heat that Wolfson directed and turning it back with even greater precision, Gibbs turned what could have been a protracted media battle and ended it right away - and decisively. It's hard to believe that we argue for Democrats to fight back against outrageous claims made by others - whether they be made by Democrats or Republicans - but then get all worked up when one of our candidates happens to do just that.

And lastly, I can't help but find it ironic when Kos finds this 'cynical', yet labels Obama's rhetoric '"changing the tone" and all that bullshit'. As far as I know, this isn't bullshit.

-----

I'd like to turn to Jerome's screed against Gibbs, which he concludes in this fashion:


Aside from the use of Republican talking points over the Lincoln bedroom, the real Gibblie here is that he's having Obama's campaign criticize Clinton for saying: "Senator Ford has apologized, and I appreciate him doing so".

I don't really care about the back and forth here between the Clinton and Obama camps, but is Gibbs that lame, or does he think we are that stupid?

Tough choice.

What a joke.

If Gibbs is gonna be the voice of Obama, then what I want to know is whether Gibbs has renounced his past association with the anti-Dean ad that Joe Trippi called the "the kind of fearmongering attack we've come to expect from Republicans," one that "panders to the worst in voters." Mistake?

And does Gibbs still believe that a Presidential candidate with "no military or foreign policy experience" is "unqualified"? Then how Gibbs, is Barack Obama going compete with John McCain on foreign policy.  Howard Dean was right on Iraq too, ya know.

Everytime I see Gibbs as Obama's campaign voice, I get further and further from seeing Obama as a candidate that is strategically smart, different, or an effective transformative leader. I really don't know what Obama is building. Sometimes I get the sense that he believes he can start the progressive online movement all over again, this time in his camp. I can tell though that whatever the Obama camp is building, his spokesman is not our partner.

Gibbs' remark about using GOP talking points about the Lincoln Bedroom is ridiculous. First of all, it's probably true that he did stay at the White House, but that's not the point of the remark. If it was, I would think Geffen would be offended that the campaign he was ostensibly supporting was insulting him. Bringing up the Lincoln Bedroom served to illustrate just how close he used to be with the Clintons. And given that Geffen had been one of the staunchest supporters of Bill Clinton during his presidency, I think it's a valid - albeit added with unnecessary emphasis - point to raise.

Armstrong's last paragraph is...well, it's very narrow-minded, I believe. Obama is acting in a strategically smart manner to date. He's drawing unprecedented crowds at a very early stage in the campaign. He's a different kind of candidate as well. He is an inspiration to millions around the country, particularly the youth vote of America that the Democratic Party has shamefully neglected throughout the years. When he speaks, people don't get a sense that he's a politician. And sure, Bush spoke about 'changing the tone' in Washington. But before he began the campaign, it was no secret that he was dumber than a bag of hammers and full of shit, as illustrated by his filthy 2000 primary campaign. And as for being an effective transformative leader (something Trippi has liked to speak about when he drops by MyDD) - is there really any other candidate who matches Obama's potential? Only John Edwards has a shot at coming close. The most transformative figure on the Democratic Party in this decade has been Howard Dean - and he lost the race that spurred that change.

I respect both Markos and Jerome greatly for the work they've done in the blogosphere to date. The fact of the matter is, though, they got this one dead wrong. Additionally, I think it's kind of ridiculous that they choose to highlight Gibbs' past association to an anti-Dean group when he's been working with Obama for almost 3 years. If this was such a burning issue, perhaps it should have been brought up in 2004, when Kos declared Barack Obama to be "The Patron Saint of Daily Kos".

Personally, it'd be wiser to go after Wolfson, who was 'lent out' during the 2006 elections. After all, if he had gone after Joe Lieberman with the kind of viciousness he took after David Geffen, maybe Ned Lamont would have had a better shot at winning.



Display:


Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (1.00 / 0)

You obviously think Obama is a demigod, and have put a lot of effort into this post. But within it, you either failed to comprehend or deal with the general gist of the post I made.

If you want to align yourself with a guy that put out a slime ad against Howard Dean, that's fine. If you like that guy being the spokesperson for your favorite candidate, that's fine. If you don't mind your spokesperson lying through their teeth while implying racism, that's fine.

And you can call not-liking-all-that my problem, that's fine.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 08:10:29 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 1)

I don't think Obama is a demigod. But I do think he is an inspirational person, much like the hundreds of thousands (and likely millions) of young people who would be the foundation of a permanent next-generation Democratic majority.

And I never said I endorsed what Gibbs did in the past. I supported Dean as well, and I was mad as hell when the ad came out. My point is that I believe it's very opportunistic of you and Markos to put out posts on Gibbs' involvement in the past today when there was plenty of time between 2004 and now that could have been done so. That's what gets me the most.

In that article, I never said I condoned what Gibbs did. To imply otherwise is disingenuous.


by PsiFighter37 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 08:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (1.00 / 0)

I went through a timeline of Gibbs, stating he joined Obama in 2004. And I pointedly said, "The reason I bring this up, is the disgust of reading Gibbs response to the broadside by the Clinton camp..."

I think it was despicable for Gibbs (as Obama's Spokesman) to imply that Hillary was embracing Ford's views and thereof invoking racism.

What Gibbs said:

It is also ironic that Senator Clinton lavished praise on Monday and is fully willing to accept today the support of South Carolina State Sen. Robert Ford, who said if Barack Obama were to win the nomination, he would drag down the rest of the Democratic Party because he's black.

What Gibbs is talking about is this:

"Senator Ford has apologized, and I appreciate him doing so, because I'm all about breaking barriers. I think this presidential election has the opportunity to break a lot of barriers," Clinton said in an interview with The State.

You don't have a problem with what Gibbs is saying for Obama in that exchange?


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 08:36:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 1)

Clinton herself never called for a personal apology. It was only after outside criticism that Ford apologized to himself and to Obama, but it wasn't because the Clinton camp urged him to.

I don't have a problem with the exchange - because I think it's a highly cynical attitude that anyone would believe Hillary to be a racist just because one of her supporters made a boneheaded comment. Her camp called out Geffen for allegedly saying something stupid, so I don't see what the problem is with returning the favor.


by PsiFighter37 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 08:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I have a feeling that Obama supporters were NOT the only one's getting at Clinton to respond.

It was extremely wise for her to respond, for her own benefit, not for the benefit of Obama, because Ford with his 'Black' remark not only smeared Obama but the whole African American political community.

With Geffen he went straight for the Clintons jugular.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Again, I thought the comeback was a STFU...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:12:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 1)

Frankly I thought the whole Robert Ford episode smacked of a pre-arranged show piece with deniability and damage control in place from the beginning.  Ford's comments were the most reprehensible and politically motivated attempt to discredit a Democratic candidate in the entire campaign.  And his apology was gratuitious.

Furthermore it was cited by Wolfson in his attack as an example of the Hillary campaign's good example in these situations.  I thought it rightly deserved an airing in that context.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I agree that the statement yesterday went to far.  But that is not what you focused on.

You (and then hours later kos) trashed the messenger and then obama thru association.


by aiko on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:12:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 2)

I missed the lying through their teeth while implying racism point.  If you are referring to Gibbs' response to the Robert Ford endorsement/down-ticket kill remark don't you think Ford's was the racist comment?  Even though, in fact especially because, it came from a notable black Democrat.  If I have misconstrued your remark please make it clearly.

I admit I found your front page diary today disturbing and these remarks are in the same vein.  What do you want or expect Obama to do?  Fire Gibbs?  Because of the attack piece four years ago?  


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (1.00 / 0)

I think this diary is what the Obama supporters are all about.  I see it time after time.

Jerome, you made a post about Robert Gibbs' affiliation with the anti-Dean swiftboat group.  You demonstrated a pattern of behavior by this specific individual who now serves as Obama's chief spokesman--the voice of the Obama campaign.  You raise a question about whether Obama condones these methods.  Then, you get attacked by Obama supporters for being mean without any meat behind the claims.

Robert Gibbs' history is important.  A candidate's staff, especially senior staff like Gibbs, is a direct reflection of that candidate's values.  Part of the Obama charm is that he is an allegedly transformational candidate who is above anti-Democratic attacks and is interested in growing the party.  Yet the official line of his campaign is to attack Hillary Clinton using the Republican "boo" words "Lincoln Bedroom."


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 11:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 1)

Vox, it seems that you've taken to simply going after people who defend Obama even marginally for something. I know you're a fervent Edwards supporter, but this does you no service.

As I noted above, my main concern is that before today, neither Jerome or Markos had mentioned a word about Gibbs' past. You probably didn't know about it either. It comes off as an opportunistic-looking attack that doesn't even address the substance of a candidate, or even his image. It talks about a spokesperson who won't be remembered by more than 99% of the primary voters when they step into the polls a year from now.


by PsiFighter37 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 11:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (1.00 / 0)

But now that he IS in the spotlight, and he IS Obama's campaign spokesman, it does matter.  Like I said, Obama is supposed to be a walk-on-water, bringer of a "new kind of politics."  His campaign's actions so far have shown otherwise.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 11:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 2)

So are you suggesting that his campaign should have simply let Howard Wolfson's BS go unanswered? Then people would have undoubtedly been criticizing him for not hitting back hard enough against the Clinton machine.


by PsiFighter37 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 11:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (1.00 / 0)

I think there were better ways to go about it.  Regurgitating a 1990's-era Republican attack is not one of them.  Pointing out that Geffen is a former Clinton supporter IS one of them.  It's the Lincoln Bedroom part that makes it over the line.

I might be willing to give a little leeway to someone who didn't have a history of attacking Democrats in rather vile ways.  But Gibbs has a dirty history.  And one month into a yearlong campaign, and he's already reverting to what he does best.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Grief... don't they all... I mean Carville and Matalin -- argghh...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 02:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Vox, with all due respect, that is exactly the attack point of the Hillary campaign and Jerome Armstrong, for that matter, on Obama.  Review the exchange, have a look at my comment on Jerome's post  and then I will be happy to have a dialogue with you about it.  I am getting RSI debating this.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 11:57:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Vox we know you are an Edwards supporter. :) (3.00 / 0)

Your bias is showing. :)


by Yoshimi on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 09:54:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Having thoughtfully read your brief response to my comment yesterday in your front page diary on Gibbs and the piece in the NYT this morning which linked to it, as well as Barack's rather regretful comment on the whole affair, I must say I take your point.

I very much want to see the new politics that Barack is talking about prevail and if you have helped him to make a mid-course correction than I can see you are truly supporting this process.  


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

"A man who slimed Howard Dean"

Sour grapes Jerome.  You know how political campaigns work - I really thought you'd have a thicker skin.


by Yoshimi on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 09:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

So anything goes?  So much for being above politics, and taking things to a new level.


by Rooktoven on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:57:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

So much for the right of a citizen (Geffen) to be able to criticize a presidential candidate and former friend (hillary) without her parying for pity.

Clinton just got embarassed. I'd feel bad to. but Obama did nothing wrong.


by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 11:16:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I said nothing about Geffen.  I was referring to Obama's hiring of Gibbs.


by Rooktoven on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:45:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Jerome,

you need to put up some more evidence than one lousey ad.  if there is a reason to trash this guy, and Obama thru association, then tell us.  but one ad doesn't cut it.

where's the beef?


by aiko on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:06:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

You said it!  Well put!

Frankly, I find it a bit reassuring that Obama has a bloodthirsty slimeball on his team, as my biggest doubt on him was always that he'd imitate a deer in the headlights once he became the #1 target of the Right Wing Slime Machine and their media lackeys.


Get a Vegetarian Starter Kit and a Dem. Party Mastercard
by Go Vegetarian on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 09:23:05 PM EST

You don't need mean and unprincipled (none / 0)

attackers to be effective in fighting back the slime from the rightwing.

Being smart, strategically sound, and swift can get the job done.


by NuevoLiberal on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:11:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't need mean and unprincipled (none / 0)

And so far Gibbs has been smart, strategically sound, and swift.  What is the problem?

Oh yeah, you support Edwards. :)


by Yoshimi on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 09:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't need mean and unprincipled (none / 0)

Uh, have you read any of NuevoLiberal's comments or posts???


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 09:55:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I actually a supporter of Barack (none / 0)

as i've said. See here, where I defended and helped kill a smear that the wingnuts were trying to hit Obama back in August: link.

But, I am a Deaniac and Gorista also :)

And so far Gibbs has been smart, strategically sound, and swift.  What is the problem?

Gibbs should apologize to Dean for swiftboating him in 2003, and disclose all the players behind those attacks.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:31:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In particular, (none / 0)

see my comment in that hit piece diary on Obama:


Regurgitating Drudge/Wingnut talking points (8+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
    bawbie, Eternal Hope, alnc, Goldfish, ChiGirl88, Albatross, Cat Whisperer, Mary Mike

about Democrats, without doing your own research and fact check, is a NO NO.

Let us examine the last line in Drudge's hit piece: "After the meeting... Obama left in a GMC Envoy after admitting to favoring SUV's himself," claimed local News Channel 6."

Now, where is it written that:

  1. the GMC envoy is his own

  2. even if it is, what if he's planning to change his vehicle in the near future (you'll have to call Obama's office to find out) or for his next vehicle?

  3. Exactly where is this claim "local News Channel 6" published? The link given in Drudge hit piece now says: "This page temporarily unavailable"

Where the fuck is your independent research?

You should delete this diary.

Nancy's Blog: The Gavel

by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 08:16:25 PM PST


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 2)

I think it's silly to suddenly condemn obama for having Gibbs as his spokesperson and for having rapid response.
Regardless of what his duties were in previous campaigns, he has to operate according to this ones way of doing things.  He was working with different people before and now.  I also did not hear any complaining of Gibbs when he sent out a response on other attacks on obama.  Why now.
To trash Obama as bad because he does rapid response, that is stupid.  You have to do rapid response or be eaten alive.  It is what keeps you looking on top and strong.  No complaints over Howards remarks or the deal with SC when he did rapid response.  It's the name of the game and as essential as meet and greet.
And Obama is no novice in politics.  Coming out of Chicago he is well aware of how nasty it can get and knows he is the #1 target of the republicans, of hilllary, ect.  Everyone is gunning for him and to survive he better be ready to hit back.  hard.
that is reality
by vwcat on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 09:32:41 PM EST

My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (none / 0)

I like Barack. He thinks. He inspires. He touches a chord.

Don't know if I like or will like the Obama campaign that has someone that mercilessly swiftboated Dean on-board. Perhaps Obama should talk to Gibbs face to face and reconcile things as honestly and sincerely as possible, between everyone.

The big question for Obama: does he condone the attacks on Dean?

An honest apology (if that's possible) from Gibbs along with the naming of everyone besides (Toricelli, David Jones, Gibbs) that was involved in that hack job on Dean could help.

That's the dilemma of the day for me.


by NuevoLiberal on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:08:34 PM EST

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (3.00 / 1)

I was a Dean supporter too but I find the attack on Obama via Gibbs unprincipled at this point in time.  I had no idea he had swift-boated Dean but I don't accept there is any point in attributing that incident to the Obama campaign.

I do wonder, however, what is really going on here.  The criticism of the Obama campaign response on this particular issue seems to have a hidden agenda to me.  It is clear that the Hillary campaign was attacking on a subtler level than merely the Geffen remarks provoked.  Why is this attack being supported in the netroots?  I wish I understood this.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (none / 0)

The soap opera of "he said, she said" between campaigns is a waste of everyone's time, but Dean is a sentimental favorite for the netroots as the movement's origins and take off were initinately tied with his 04 campaign.

Whether Gibbs will wage a more ethical campaign is a somewhat important question for the movement to consider.

The ads are incendiary, but the worse part was the sinister and shadowy nature with which they were put together, which is quite troubling. They exploited some FEC rule which allowed them not to disclose identities until after the IA/NH primaries were over (or something like that), so they were just tailor made to bring Dean down.

One still doesn't know exactly who all prodded Gibbs, Jones, Toricelli etal to do those ads. I have a funny feeling that the Clintons themselves may have had something to with them, which would be an ironical twist to the story :)

And why, besides the usual politics?

These questions beg some answers.

seems to have a hidden agenda to me.

I doubt it.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 02:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (none / 0)

Fair enough, maybe the agenda is just to lighten up the he said, she said.  I am interested to note that the origin of those ads is still a mystery; and it would be quite ironic if it were the Clintons.  What would have been the point at that time?  


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:10:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (none / 0)

In the interests of fairness, we don't really know if the Clintons were actually behind the Jones/Gibbs/Toricelli 527 or not, but we do know that Bill Clinton was working the phones to down Dean, saying something to the effect that "Dean was not qualified to be the nominee because Vermont became the first state to permit civil unions under Dean's Governorship."

Here is an interesting expose of the 527:


Political Mugging in America

Anatomy of an "independent" smear campaign

By Charles Lewis

March 4, 2004 -- As Mark Twain once put it, "A truth is not hard to kill and a lie told well is immortal."

In the 21st century in the United States of America, it is still astonishingly easy to assassinate a political opponent's character, with little or no accountability or basis in fact. It is hardly new to politics anywhere that money and the messages it buys often create devastating perceptions. But such smear tactics are more serious and offensive when they benefit major "mainstream" candidates seeking the Presidency, are utilized anonymously by mysterious, outside organizations and they occur in the wake of recent, historic, campaign finance reform and new political disclosure requirements.

On November 7, 2003, a strange new group no one had ever heard of called "Americans for Jobs & Healthcare" was quietly formed and soon thereafter began running a million dollar operation including political ads against then-frontrunner Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. The commercials ripped Dean over his positions or past record on gun rights, trade and Medicare growth. But the most inflammatory ad used the visual image of Osama bin Laden as a way to raise questions about Dean's foreign policy credibility. While the spots ran, Americans for Jobs--through its then-spokesman, Robert Gibbs, a former Kerry campaign employee--refused to disclose its donors.

Where I am basically coming from is that, we need to work to make the primaries free from such outrageous nonsense. Discuss issues, records and respective visions of the candidates, and cut the bullshit out.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (none / 0)

thats bs about clinton and dean...you dont know what the f you are taliking about.  clinton and dean were veryyyyy friendly in 04...and before and since.  sorry if that bursts your bubble...but ive known and spoken to each about the other and your words are bogus.


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 11:45:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (none / 0)


Liberalism and Its Bounds:

Election 2004, an Epic Betrayal
by Joshua Frank and Merlin Chowkwanyun

As Dean recounts in his recent campaign memoir, You Have the Power, DLC co-founding member, star, and former President Bill Clinton placed a wave of influential phone calls to Dean supporters during the months prior to the Iowa caucus, urging them to throw their support behind Wesley Clark instead.

Clinton's rationale?  A homophobic one.  Dean, declared Clinton, had "forfeited his right to run for President" because he had signed a bill in Vermont as governor permitting civil unions.  Clinton's anti-gay position would repeat itself during the Kerry 2004 campaign, when Clinton urged, albeit unsuccessfully, Kerry to embrace the proposed federal gay marriage ban.

Other DLC elements also worked actively to portray Dean as an unstable radical.  The DLC's flagship publication labeled him "misguided", "an aberration," and an "activist" who was "defined principally by weakness abroad and elitist, interest-group liberalism at home."


Note that the authors are quoting Dean from his book.

your words are bogus.

You owe me a retraction and an apology.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (3.00 / 2)

yikes!  your right.  I do apologize. but it doesnt change that I know Clinton likes Dean (he's said so to me) and Dean did like Clinton (at least the half a dozen times i had him on the radio supporting him when i was producing lefty talk shows) and the many times ive heard him say so since in interviews and on the stump.

I was a Clinton guy...but a Dean guy too.  President Clinton believes that the gay marriage issue lost us the election in 04 for sure.  I never knew he was calling for Clark but that makes sense.  Theyre Freinds too!  (God I know how lame that sounds!)  He chose to support Clark and point out an issue with Dean that he thought was a risk in our attempts to win back the WH.  Personally, I thought he had stayed out of it until past NH. Im suprised but I dont think his support was unethical or a slime.  He has said that we lost the general number wise because of the ste ballots on gay marriage referendums.

Sorry. That Gibbs intercine warfare attack stuff made me leap at you. You see I like Obama, Hillary, Edwards, Richardson, Biden...hell I like all of em! I just HATE this petty, HS popularity contest BS. I truly HATED that commercial that Osamed Dean.  It wasnt the scream that killed his campaign (stupid press mythos)  It was that vile ad.  Gibbs makes me want to challenge him to a duel.

Ive gone and read your stuff. Your my kind of fella. Stand up and thoughtful.

I assumed and made an ass of only me...


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 01:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In Dean's own words: (none / 0)


You Have the Power:,  How to Take Back Our Country and Restore Democracy in America, By Howard Dean, Judith Warner

BTW, my intent is not not drive a wedge between Clinton and Dean here. I merely lay out facts as they are.

Clearly, from the wording in Dean's book, Dean respects Clinton and I think he likes him; Clinton probably likes Dean at a personal level, but politically, it's probably a different story.

Yes, I am waiting for your apology.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Dean's own words: (3.00 / 1)

God I read more and i still do owe you an apology for my YELL but...having read this, its what I thought and had heard directly from the President, he thinks that gay marriage will lose us elections. He may be right, I have no idea truly, but I do know that he isnt anti gay (not a bit) and he truly did believe that in 04.  (The Bush numbers in those states that had initiative due seem to bear out his thesus btw)

The other thing is I thought everyone knew who ran that ad.  It was a Gephart -Kerry two-fer. Thats who those guys were who raised the $.  It was Not the Clintons, not a chance.  They would not have been soooo stupid to risk contaminating Hillary with an ad using Osama.  No way.


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 01:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for that.  I had, as someone else posted, never realised what really happened to Dean in Iowa.  It was very disappointing.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:30:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Barack vs Obama Dilemma (none / 0)

"One still doesn't know exactly who all prodded Gibbs, Jones, Toricelli etal to do those ads. I have a funny feeling that the Clintons themselves may have had something to with them, which would be an ironical twist to the story :)"

While it is true that it would be ironic, you make a rather strong statement here without offering a smidgen of proof.   How did you arrive at that "funny feeling" of yours?   Can you point to the evidence for this rather interesting, but unsubstantiated opinion?  

Think about it this way:  If Gibbs had that kind of "dirt" on the Clinton's (which he could disclose at any time,) would the Clinton campaign have gone after Gibbs comments specifically?   That premise makes no sense at all.

No offense, but that "funny" feeling you have may just be a case of indigestion.  :-)  


by georgep on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cut the Bullshit (none / 0)

I posted a followup well before your comment


In the interests of fairness, we don't really know if the Clintons were actually behind the Jones/Gibbs/Toricelli 527 or not, but we do know that Bill Clinton was working the phones to down Dean, saying something to the effect that "Dean was not qualified to be the nominee because Vermont became the first state to permit civil unions under Dean's Governorship."

My "funny feeling" comes from Bill Clinton's homophobic remarks about Howard Dean, which your selective vision seems to have skimmed over:


Dean, declared Clinton, had "forfeited his right to run for President" because he had signed a bill in Vermont as governor permitting civil unions.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:24:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cut the Bullshit (none / 0)

Homophobic remarks?  They had a policy difference.   Come on, now.

To make the leap that the Clintons would therefore hire Gibbs and co. to concoct a Bin-Ladin image when talking about Dean is irresponsible, IMO.   Your follow-up does not really address your initial remark, just tries to make the case even further.  Absent any proof or supporting evidence, a rather low shot.  

And, you are not addressing the point made that if you had any leg to stand on with that slam, would going after Gibbs not been the LAST thing on Clinton's mind?  If Gibbs had that kind of dirt on the 527 ad to dish at any time, attacking him personally over this Geffen thing would have been suicidal.    Is that not utterly logical to you?  


by georgep on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (none / 0)

Does "forfeited his right to run for President" sound like "policy difference" to you? It doesn't, to me.

I think that you continue misread. I said: we don't really know if the Clintons were actually behind the Jones/Gibbs/Toricelli 527 or not, but if you're still unhappy, please explore these links:

based on these and the Dean/Civil union bit, we know that a whole lot of people, including Clinton, some members of the DLC (who are generally loyal to Clinton), the Gibbs/Jones/Toricelli 527, all worked to put the wheels in motions for bringing down Howard. Exactly what connections existed between the various groups (it is difficult to imagine that none existed) remains to be seen.

The beauty of the whole thing is, after everything that was done to him, Dean got up, dusted himself off, and went back to first helping raise tons of money for Kerry, and then to rebuild the Democratic party from the gound up, while foregoing his own possible self-interest of running for President. Why? Because people like him want to change to world for the better, for reasons beyond themselves and their desires. You see, those are the kind of leaders we need more of and such selfless public service inspires many of us.

If Gibbs had that kind of dirt on the 527 ad to dish at any time, attacking him personally over this Geffen thing would have been suicidal.

Yes, that's pretty good logic.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 05:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (3.00 / 1)

Kinda' suggests Dean is a hero of the Democratic party which was always my reading of the situation.  Oh, what tangled webs are woven...  Almost makes one a bit cynical sometimes.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No offense to you either :-) (none / 0)


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I'm torn on the issue.  I really don't like the fact that Gibbs worked for that horrible, horrible 527, but at the same time I know he's going to be extremely effective.  Since Obama is my candidate, I like knowing that he isn't going to take any shit.  


by blueryan on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:29:26 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (3.00 / 3)

To Markos and Jerome Armstrong: Give us a break!


by pservelle on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 10:49:19 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

To Vox Populi: see my suggestion to Markos and Armstrong.


by pservelle on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 11:57:49 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (1.00 / 0)

Another Obama supporter rebutting criticism with such substance!


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:22:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes and you are another Edwards supporter (none / 0)

with an empty attack on Obama.  What happened to your guy?  Do you realize that with this "drama" going on, he is getting NO coverage.

This is a bad thing for him. :)


by Yoshimi on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 09:59:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

More polemic than criticism.


by pservelle on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

More polemic than criticism.


by pservelle on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 02:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Its simple and only the simple dont understand.  Dowd and geffen introduced into the convo (via the NY Times the GOP - MSM scripting that began in the 90s and cost us the WH in 2000 and 2004.  Democrats are phony, ambitous, liars etc...and this hack working for Obama releases a statement talking about Clintons and the Lincoln bedroom.  (oh wise understander of media script dangers he be - NOT!)  Read the daily howler --understand this troubling beginning and stop using GOP memes to support your candidate.


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 08:26:09 AM EST

David Geffen doesn't speak for Obama. :) (none / 0)

Neither do I. :)


by Yoshimi on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:00:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

YOU don't understand (none / 0)

Geffen...the "hack"...doesn't "work for Obama."

The former Clinton supporter now supports Obama.

It seems simple. Get your facts straight.


by faithfull on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:27:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: YOU don't understand (none / 0)

Yes, and while the Cliton's were slammed for their connections to Hollywood, Obama's same connections are a good thing now?  


by georgep on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: YOU don't understand (none / 0)

oops, CLINTONS.    :-)


by georgep on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: YOU don't understand (none / 0)

Who is slamming the Clinton's for their connections to Hollywood?  The criticism of Hillary I read here, leaving Bill out of this, is that Wolfson has made an attack on Obama's high ground by attempting to drag him into a mud-slinging match and the Gibbs theme is the consequence.  Where is Obama culpable in any of this?  Because he hired Gibbs?  And has successfully worked with him for two years?  This seems like an ad hominem attack on Obama regarding negative politics which occurred years ago and involved him not at all.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: YOU don't understand (none / 0)

gibbs is not a theme - hes the frigging communications director - he is dispicable - obama should x him and until he does im gonna question his sincerity about his desire to a civil debate....and so shoul you


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:51:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: YOU don't understand (none / 0)

I must admit I found the Osama ad thing shocking.  I was a Dean supporter then and have always had a bad taste over his defeat in Iowa.  I am not sure how much it reflects on Obama though and am actually a bit concerned about that.  I wish I know more about it.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Yoshimi and these other folks who dont seem to get the disgrace and danger of having Gibbs working for a Democratic campaign must be playing disinguously because surely they cant be that dim.  Tricia Enright was right about that guy in 2000 and he should never be forgiven for his role in sliming Dean. (You think the Dean scream brought down the campaign - think again - that vile ad did)  What Gibbs did the other day that is also unforgivable is that he introduced false GOP created scripting into the 08 Democratic primary season for the very first time. (Lincoln Bedroom, I mean WTF?  That canard about Democratic cravenous has been long disproved - but it doesnt seem to stop some media hacks or Gibbs) That was WHY Hillary's folks fired back so hard.  We have been fighting for years now to reject this almost unbeatable drumming that starts with the far right and is distrubuted by the Chris Matthews of the world and other lazy MSM re-typers.  (Please immerse yourself in the archives of www.dailyhowler.com if you dont understand the full dangers of this problem) Jeeze Yoshimi (& buds) stop being an enabler for our real enemies whilst you root for your own favorite.


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 10:30:11 AM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

The Lincoln bedroom reference was in Maureen Dowd's original interview with Geffen.  It was unfortunate it was repeated by Gibbs but he didn't introduce it to the debate, Dowd did in her questioning of Geffen.

Minor point, I agree, but it does go some way to explaining this faux pas on Gibbs' part.

And I think his counter-attack on the Ford comments was totally appropriate under the circumstance, it is MHO but that seemed like a calculated attack on Obama's race with at least tacit support on Hillary's side.  Very not nice.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:51:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

you do know that senator ford is black dont ya?  

mo dowd is famous. but she is not our friend.  shes bush 1s darling, best buds  w tim, chris and all those other nantucketites ... f her... she's the enemy (please read about her at the howler)...no excuse for gibbs, none.


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:46:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Yes, and that's the thing I find so disturbing about it.  He also has a lot of clout in SC.  It makes me suspicious that he was the perfect man for the job, so to speak.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:08:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I'd say that Obama's response hit the right note.  For him while this stuff doesn't really matter his response does.

He should be fine as long as he never talks about racism.  That would probably be the thing that could most easily doom his candidacy.  But I am sure he knows that.


by sterra on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 11:31:24 AM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

According to Obama himself the response did NOT hit the right note (see below.)  


by georgep on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Sterra...Dude...did you even read Jerome's piece?  


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 11:42:36 AM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Yes.  I wont go into why I don't think it matters though.  Not worth the effort.


by sterra on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 11:47:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

not worth the effort?  Opinions without thoughts...yeah thats the ticket!


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Well, Jerome's piece made it into the NYT and WaPo, as was no doubt intended.  And elicited some counter-accusations by way of rebuttal.  What institution, ethics or values were upheld by that diary, I wonder.  It ended up being an attack on Obama in the MSM whatever Jerome's intentions may have been.  Do you think Obama should sack him and hire someone else?  At this point in the campaign?  I can hear others howling about disloyalty to staff if he did.  What do you recommend, since you have insider insights into these things?


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 07:55:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

He caused an embarrasment for his boss, sure he oughta go.  Most people here dont give a darn, but others will remember (me too)  His job is to work on getting good press - not develop his own bad.  I am depressed though not suprised that so few (on the nets)saw this as a major problem (msm- expected - most of those folks are such dolts)...it sure makes me understand why poor ol Bob Somerby is cranky so much of the time.  He has been working against this script for so many days and years - and just like hes been warning - the net roots are now willing to use the same bs strategm that the right wing rush scream machine developed...its ok to say anything you wish - as long as it helps your side.

I do like the Clintons yes.  I think they took a lot of hits for US. (Do you really believe it was personal - the GOP hated them because they couldnt beat them and they took the WH from them.  The Press disliked them for a varied of crazed reasons...but trust me, all that hate and all those were ultimately about trying to get back power...oh yeah and the army, navy, helicopters, air force 1, the marine band, money and tax breaks for their buddies etc...

Sadly it seems that many here think elections are American Idol SUPERSIZED - but they aint - its not about personalities - its about winning back the Departments of Gov...where we can do some good for OUR people...

This Hillary hating is dangerous.  All must admit there is a chance she may be our nominee (shes 20 ahead in a field of 6 - thats quite a lot)  All these snide refrences to GOP frames will hurt us - these attacks wernt just against the Clintons - they were meant only to hurt the chances of the Dems in elections and to win back power.

When they couldnt do that - they tried a coup.


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:37:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Look, I take your point about Gibbs and the 2004 527 campaign.  But all I know about it is what has been posted here in the past few days.  I guess I am in no position to make this judgement but appreciate your response.  I will continue to support Obama whether Gibbs goes or not but I guess we will all be watching for more of the same now.

As for the Clintons, I have no problem with Bill and I understand the importance of those precious two terms in holding the Democratic party together in this country.  But Hillary, no.  I'll admit it is a personal distaste but there is something about her way of doing business that really makes me apprehensive about her candidacy.  I have voted for her twice now as Senator.  She was one of my senators from NY when the AUMF vote went through so I heard a lot of her stuff at the time and I was not impressed.  In fact I was deeply disappointed.  I have voted for her again since, no worries, as senator.  But president?  Not for me.  No way.

I am convinced we could do better and I would prefer any of the other Democrats over her.  The thought of her winning the nomination fills me with grim thoughts about not voting at all.  I just can't help it, she makes my teeth hurt.

But it shouldn't be personal, as you say.  Do you really think she has any better chance of being elected than Obama or Edwards if they were nominated instead?  Is that the issue?


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:21:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

look shaun, Ill write back to you because your honest and not rude about your feelings...but lordy man dont you remember 2000!  Dont you realize that you are risking putting a McCain (ultimate man on horseback or a Guliani (Bernie's buddy)in charge.  How do you think that will work for all the folks who Really need the Goverments help.  What about the Courts - 4 more years - you will have the Fed Courts jammed up with Federalists.

I am a Clinton person.  I know some people will go phhhw! but screw them...I was raised by a Dorothy Day Catholic Worker Mom and the issues that she raised me to care about I still do.  First, I think we gotta win.  ALL the power is in the Execuitive.  It matters much more who the asst sec of whatever is than who is chair of whatever committe in the house.  We are in gridlock city, they demand a super majority for everything - plus the veto.  Unless we can get 63 or 64 senators in 08, things will be the same.  We gotta win.  There is math that shows how she can win, new voters, waitress moms yada yada...she is 20 points ahead in a six way race...the odds are with her.   That sure as hell doesnt mean that everyone doesnt have the right to support their fav, I just wish everyone had a sense of the reality of what may come next.  (Heck I was a state director for Harkin in 92 before I changed my mind and became enamored with Big Bill.  (In bars in NH I used to like to refer to Clinton's staff as those polo shirt wearing mother f-ers - so I do understand that being in opposition can be fun)

2 more things.  So many people here write vile things about her and that does get me mad. I know her actually quite well.  From the first moment I spent time with her she made me feel very comfortable, she is surely no snob, she is veryyyy nice, quite fun and always treats me like a human...not a subject or unimportant.  She is as middle class and middle america as her campaign claims.  She believes in 90 plus % of what you believe in, you just dont know this as yet.  

As to the vote.  Yes it sucked.  But understand this - if Hillary had voted differently, this war would still have happened.  Do you remember the times?  93% of press coverage was overtly pro war.  (Its the media I hate - not our candidates)  The hype machine was full on.  Polling in NY showed that the people wanted the war.  They were being misled by the WH AND the f-ing MSM.  If you actually read her speech before the vote - you will see that she was never-ever-ever PRO WAR (as is claimed over and over and over and over)  Hell, shes been saying since 8/04 that if the vote was held over again - it would never have happened cause now we know the truth.  Back seat drivers all claim that they knew the truth then (hell I was against the vote too)but that is unfair.  They werent representing NY State.  (Remember how Schumer voted also) I suggest you go to www.dailyhowler.com to read about her statements about her vote then and now.

I just wish this hatred would end.  I know who my enemies are - I wonder if everyone who claims they wont vote for her EVER really do.  Heres my enemies list:  1)The right wing liars and cheaters of the GOP  2) the phony members of the Washington Press Corps who are more interested in the sexy fun of politics and destroy our Democratic system by misinforming the voters (Matthews, Fineman, Dowd, Russert etal) 3) Ralph Nader and those who say that they are to pure to sully themselves by voting for a Dem that they dont like.  Hell theyre allowed to feel that way - and Im allowed to despise them for it...you see I know nobody is pure...no one...Ive worked for politicans, produced lefty media (with Nader too btw who is a compleate fraud! seriously) and met all these folks...be real.  In NH in 92 I used to say that there should be a const amendment that anybody who wanted to be president shouldnt be allowed.  Hell, all these people have egos the size of buses and ambition that is unending...dah!  Theyre all propped up by staffers who dream of staring on their own version of the West Wing.  Hey we all have dreams.  But this is alll for the common good....its a team sport...we gotta win to help those who need help.  (Hell, I believe in a luxury tax of over 90% for incomes over $200 g - none of these cats share my politics - hell Id have to draft Gore Vidal to represent my ideals - sometimes we gotta compromise ya know)  Just please dont judge someone as person just by what is presented by the media. Those folks distort everything, theyre the ones that make my teeth hurt and theyre the ones who made many progs in 2000 think that Gore was so false and wooden that they too could never-ever vote for him either.  Now everyones perspective has changed, and they love him, maybe its possible that the image portrayed by the press was untrue back then.  Maybe the image you see of Hillary has been distorted the same way.  The vast right wing conspiracy exists.  It influences all of the coverage of Hillary and Bill (and any other Dem who risks them losing power)  The press continue this scripting, I just wish that our side would stop enabling them.  The comments section on this and kos sometimes read exactly like it was scripted by interns from the RNC in its use of Repub scripts against Hillary.

If we dont stop this mythos from being the lingue of this election season, we must fight it before it becomes adapted.  We have proved over and over that these attacks were based on lies.  But if we start using these attacks in our own campaigns, believe me the press and the GOP will lose their fear of using disproven attack memes.  Theyll just say - ' iof it wasnt true - why did Obamas comm dir say it? They will and ya gotta know this!

Please go read www.dailyhowler.com archives Bob somerby is not only the smartest guy on the Nets, hes the smartest guy Ive ever met.  Plus the most honest.  Read him and reconsider.  


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I appreciate your response.  I agree with everything you are saying, with one caveat which I will get to later, and it actually brings up stuff for me too.  I also am represented ideological by the likes of Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky, I have been watching the political process in the US with growing fear and loathing over the years and am profoundly grateful for the Clinton years.  When you mentioned the Wobblies the other day it really resonated for me.  I was an itinerant labourer in the US for almost a decade when I was a youngster, doing menial work in the fields and restaurants and sometimes without any dough to speak of at all.  I worked with old guys that taught me how to ride the rails and the old hobo sidewalk symbols, how to get along in the world of the Man and still be free; and when they talked about the IWW their eyes lit up with a fire that still burned brightly.  These poor old guys I would meet in the Men's charity homes in places like Kansas City and downtown LA still believed.  And so do I.

So I think I get it.  Not the Beltway stuff, still all Greek to me in many ways.  I was devastated when Bobby was killed, the bastards.  And I got arrested, along with about 10,000 others at the '71 May Day protest against the war in DC and thrown in jail, again.  Where the hell is that solidarity today?  It feels like consumerism and popular culture has put the nail in the coffin of that kind of street activism.  So yeah, we gotta' win.  And with a crushing majority which delivers the executive and legislature and with enough time to realign the Supreme Court too.  I would like to see us take control for a generation, at least.  I totally agree, it is a matter of survival, and not just for the Party either.

Of all those who support Hillary on the grounds that she offers the best chance I find your argument the soundest, somehow, not that it is any different but because you put it into a historical perspective.  And I am prepared to hope she is more ideologically consistent than she seems, but I wish it was more clear.  So, sure, if she wins the nomination I will vote for her.  Not that my presidential vote has counted for anything in the past four decades, coming from NY.  We have to do something about the Electoral College anachronism one of these days, don't we?

I won't go into the AUMF vote, as you say it didn't actually change anything, much, and I am sh*tty with Schumer about it too.  I am apprehensive that her hawkish tone is more than an electoral posture and that concerns me, but so be it.

The thing is, though, this is a primary and again there is an insurgent candidate that seems to be getting people mobilised who should be involved in  the political process if we are ever going to set things right.  I reserve the right to run with this for now, see how it goes and give it our best shot.  I believe that if Obama can come from twenty points behind in a year long campaign and demonstrate electoral support that can seriously challenge, in fact overwhelm her, then he has earned the loyal support that she is claiming.  That's how it works, no?  I want to beat the GOP too, in fact I want to crush them.  I'll bet Hillary could win in 2008 but it may not be the landslide we need.  Not as a criticism but it does seem she is polarising to much of the electorate and her candidacy suggests to me the razor thin margins of the last two elections.  It worries me a bit.  Maybe I have a naive faith in the electorate to get behind a populist candidacy but it seems to be working in some respects already.  And potentially Obama can erode support for the GOP in places which Hillary would have difficulty getting traction.  I want to cream the bastards this time, not just beat them.

I am prepared to wait awhile and see how Obama does before closing ranks behind the conventional wisdom of who is the most electable candidate.  And I agree with you the Lincoln bedroom remark was self-destructive crap which Obama better ditch if he wants to realise his stated ambitions.  I believe he will on recent evidence.  And if Gibbs is the turncoat you think he is I hope Obama ditches him, though I concede that decision to Obama without withholding my support in consequence.

I have been an outspoken critic of Hillary, as a consequence of my support for Obama, as I perceive her as running a very negative campaign on him.  I personally believe her ambition overwhelms her good nature in this respect.  But, as a consequence of your compelling argument, I will make a genuine effort to cease sniping at her, so long as she runs a decent campaign, and stick to the benefits that I perceive that Obama may offer.   I will continue to support him as long as he can demonstrate a credible potential to be the best chance we have of a significant victory.  Personally I think he will and wonder if you are prepared to consider him on the same basis.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 07:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Shaun - my brother - way cool on having known some actual wobblies - jeeze how neat ...

OK.  Agreeed. We both are coming from basically an anti corporate perspective.  believe me, I know that the clintons are far from anti capatalists. (but the same can be said for all the candidates - no matter whoever wins - on swearing in day, the airports that surround DC will be full of private jets) Right back after the 96 election I started producing talk shows for a labor funded radio network in DC.  We spent much more $ than air america ever had and you never ever heard of it.  I spent every day during Monica time and through the 2000 election theft with right wingers and lefties and the folks in between. I used to hear horrible things about Gore from my leftie friends and I would try to explain my position that - hey basically - these folks the clinton-gores is as good as its gonna get...this is NOT a lefty Nation.  The right came after to destroy the Clintons not because of some dna thing - but because they wanted their power...their control back and they would and did try everything to do that.  But my friends wouldnt give Gore a break, too much fun!  So then the Nader thing happens.  Hell we were having Nader on once a week.  (Our mantra was basically anti global trade) Sadly, I found out too much about Nader to be able to pretend that he is a sincere shiny night.  (He was funded - at that time - by an anti union - anti trade - textile zillionaire from the carolinas named roger miliken..a guy who paid for his later campaigns to disrupt the elections)  Im getting off topic....point being...I tried to beg friends who had gotten used to a Dem in power that this was the exception, we better understand that winning elections at the Natl level is beyond belief hard and we better stay organized and together if we wanna stay in power.  But emotions run deep.  And people do like to play.  So we divided and we lost.  Now all these years go by.  I didnt expect it - but now there is an effort for a reformation.  Bring back the ol Gov, the ol team, better days.  I am totally for it.  Its easy to attack the Clinton Admin, heck I did it on the radio on issues I didnt agree with, but Im proud of those days.  (2 policy pop to mind as examples - the earned income tax credit - which helps tons of folks and haiti - which clinton tried to help when even the dems in congress said let it rot...I saw that one, I went back with Aristede...the Bushies of course couped him out and the press didnt even yawn)

As to Hillary...t'aint about Hillary.  Its about them.  Us.  Its a team sport.  People who figure her for Lady Macbeth are just being silly.  The Clintons are totally a dual singularity. She will be running but dont forget the idea of "buy one, get one".  Anyone who runs for office is ambitous.  Please dont go there.  Obama is INCREDIBLY, SUPERHUMANLY ambitous.  Stunningly ambitous.  So what?  Thats the game, the deal..
This is America - Hell ya!  - I love the idealism of our process.  I believe anyone has the right to run  (even a Mike Gravel who I also know and know to be semi nuts)   If I was 18 and dew eyed again - I would totally be for Obama.  Hell ya  But.....Im not. I sadly know just how bad this all can be.  We have to fight two battles at the same time. The GOP and the Media Mess.  Its horribly difficult.  I think (and saw before) that the Clintons can pull it off.  Personally, I dont think that the Obama folks are ready for the big game.  The way they handled the Geffen-Lincoln Bedroom bit is a bad indicator.  (Im not talking policy here - just how they deal with the media monster)  But hey  If Obama fits you better for policy reasons - or because you like his hair cut or ANY reason - well heck, Im not gonna attack you for that  (the team rah-rah we're number one- you suck attitude on these sites is f-ing ridiculous) If Obama can pull this off and get the nomination - hell ya Ill support him.  Hells bells, I even voted for Kerrey and he was the worst candidate ever in my mind...

Ive never suggested peoples support should drop because he has this guy Gibbs.  Im saying he should be fired. A guy like this will F up again - and he will be shoved aside. Obama is a very sharp cookie.  You did hear his answers about the hair cut and the kids and all that right.  That was bad.  Gibbs caused him to have to shuffle and say his I didnt knows, he wont let that happen again.

This election will be hard.  The primaries will be brutal.  The campaign teams will try to kill each other.  Expect it.  But we cant do our enemies work for them.  We gotta remember 2000 and the consequences of that election. We cant pull a Bradley and call our opponent a liar and set up the repub fall campaign for them.
Your enemy isnt Hillary.  (Hell it aint Hillary whos running anyhow -its Billary anyhow)  The Clinton camp will not allow Obamas minions to use republican hate scripting to come from another camp.  If it does - they will try to Destroy the author.  No doubts.  I just pray that Obamas peoples  ambition to win is tempered by this understanding.  Its gonna be ugly, I just hope it doesnt get stupid.  Thats all.  The press is gonna prop up Obama.  Only for one reason, they want a race.  They dont want Hillary winning this thing in a wash...that wouldnt be any fun for them. So Obamas got that going for him.  Clinton has the numbers and the orginazation.  Its a race.  Lets try to do this understanding that the final goal is to win the WH and get the world back to where it was before these crazed f-ers took over.


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 08:40:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I am with you on the goal and I appreciate the reality check.  Keep our eyes on the donut and forget the hole.  It is going to get ugly, yes, but let's not be stupid.  You're right.  I can live with that.

As you have been saying it is a team sport.  I get the sensibility, but also a bit of ennui regarding the Clintons on a as good as its gonna' get basis but, as I said, we gotta' be grateful for those precious two terms.  I am still a believer so I am going to reach for the brass ring this time, just trying to get the best outcome.  And yeah, it is all about power and I have no illusions about the intentions of the Republicans.  They would do to us what they did to Iraq in a moment.  And I always felt Nader was just a spoiler, but there it is.

Hard to see how the brutal primaries are not going to leave the victor a bit trashed, sad but true but we can only try.  OK, you've helped me get real about all of this, and thanks for the insight, it is easy to lose perspective sometimes.  I'll leave Hillary alone and wish her well and just get on with business.  I am still a populist ideologue so Obama is my pick, I am getting older but my dreams don't.  I was reading the first chapter of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals recently and it really made me think how much we have changed in forty years.  I still have faith in the electorate, the dewy-eyed innocents and all.  But we aren't a Lefty nation, are we?  And probably never were.  Still sometimes a really great leader can make the difference, no?  Sigh.  I am going to do my best to support Obama as I did for Dean, and I hope he does better.  Trippi has said some really interesting stuff about the Obama candidacy lately and I think he is really enjoying this.  Please keep your mind open on them being able to pull the rabbit out of the hat, we have a long election cycle yet to go.

But as you say, we gotta' get to the WH by whichever means brings the best guarantee of success.  Solid.  Whatever it takes.

An injury to one is an injury to all!


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Alive as you and me.

ONE BIG UNION!!!


by timlhowe on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 03:56:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Tim, are you a member?  I didn't realise they started up again in 1993, I had no idea.  I am planning to join the branch here if they will have me as I am self-employed.  They don't usually let 'bosses' join it seems but make exceptions.  I think it would be great to quit my job, become a delegate and go work in a Burger King and organise all the high-school leavers.  Ha-ha.  Thanks for the inspiration!


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 05:48:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Excellent Picture.  My new desktop.  Jeeze would I love to have one of those flags.  No Im not a member, but youre right I should be.  I have met and talked with the guys who organized them in NYC.  They are very small, but they are organizing. Independent and historicaly minded.  they have a newsletter - I gotta go to their site.  Awsome pic - thanks!


by timlhowe on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 11:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Yeah, talking with you was really good.  I have a new approach now and it feels much clearer.  You were absolutely right.

I rang the local delegate and they said I can join.  I'll let you know how things go.  I think they could use our support.  I was impressed with what they have been doing at Starbuck's in NYC.  Gee, it is good to see those flags on the picket lines these days.  Maybe there is a bit of a revival going on.  I want to be part of it, somehow.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 11:57:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Bud,

Thats cool.  Ihave put your pic as my web site.  Looks good, rebel proud.

You know I am brand new to posting at this (or any) site.  I have tried to write about what I seem to be wasteful attacks on our own side - as you have heard...whats interesting is that this morning I commented on a stoller piece about Carl Levin - writing why didnt they threaten to "primary him"?  I wrote this because ofn Friday he wrote that we should "primary' Rahmn Emmanuel and a whole list of Dems, many of them who barely hold on in Red Districts.  This is beyond ridiculous, moving into dangerous territory.  (Note - I used to often be on the other side of fights with Rahm back in the Clinton days - but Ive always respected his desire to win as a Dem.")  But guess what?  I got a message that said that I couldnt post any more unless I checked off a box that told me to  - "knock it off".    Whats with that?  Shades of the ghost of Ari Fleischer?  Warnings to `watch what I say..."  Lord me.  Tell me brother, does this new democracy site and concept have a problem with freedom of speech.  Or is it that the young men who are running this site have like many before them become addicted to aggreement and adverse to critique?  Shall they breech no criticism?  The who lyrics, "here's the new boss -same as the old boss" come to mind.  They do, really.

Have you read the book by Wallace Stegner?  If not, you should.  I had the great opportunity to talk to him about it...he was sure that Hill was guilty, but that it sure as hell didnt matter.  After reading it, you realize you woulda pulled the trigger too.

Death to bossism.  Of all kinds. Blog bosses too.


by timlhowe on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 09:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

I read your exchange on the Levin thread.  I had to laugh, I think you should consider the 'knock it off' threat as a compliment.  I think you hit a nerve and it just goes to show they got your point.  It is pretty clear that our front pagers here take their political positioning seriously.  I am still trying to understand where they stand in the left spectrum but they seem to have a pretty fixed idea.  Having said that you did get a chance to develop your ideas pretty thoroughly with your subsequent posts and I am glad you did.

And considering you did get to make your point rather well you might consider the 'death to the bosses' theme is an ultimately self-defeating one, one which is not going to further the cause of socialism these days when publicly stated.  I stand somewhere between Rosa Luxemburg and Mahatma Gandhi on this and I think many of the early Wobblies would agree.  Ironically, the example of Joe Hill is one that divided the movement as much as it provided one of it's greatest heroes.  I don't believe there is any idea important enough to kill someone for, and if I have exceptions to this rule I generally keep it to myself.  It is a very personal choice.

Still I admire your unequivocal stand.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 04:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Death to bossism, on the other hand, is hard to argue with.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 04:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

well definately i meant a rhetorical death, im not a big believer in killing, though i do think a punch in the nose is somtimes deserved.

im gonna go read more about joe hill. i was thinking of the novel when i wrote that...i had always heard of him, but in truth my knowledge comes from strgners book.  I was shocked when i asked stegner , who wrote this very sympathetic book, if hill was guilty and he answered simply,"of course".  But, in the book, he was in this terrible situation and my sympathy and anger was with him...i wonder what the story has to do with the truth.  Youre right, I bet it really did hurt the IWW.  Could it be that the turmoil that hurt that movements growth is also the most remenent romantic thing that keeps the memory of them still with us?

See how important real history is?  Now I gotta go see what more i can discover.  

so i apologize for my attempt to rally using a blathering slogan...death to bossism is more my meant... but anyway,im going back to favorite one anyway - one big union!

ps didja know that in the bookstore at at afl-cio hq in dc they sell t shirts for lil kids that are red and have that black cat on them and they say..."Im a lil Wobblie..."  Aint that great!?


by timlhowe on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 05:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Your absolutely right about the turmoil that hurt that movements growth is also the most romantic thing that keeps the memory of them still with us.  It's true.  That's why the ancient Greek plays that have survived are tragedies.  But good politics is bad entertainment.  The lesson I see with the history of the socialist Left, especially the anarchist and syndicalist movements, is their unfailing tendency to fall out with each other as soon as they have beaten the odds and achieved the revolution.  It is repeated time and again.  The Paris Commune, another sad, sad tale, the IWW in the '20's, the Spanish Civil War et al.  One shakes one's head in despair.  And yet reading those histories one discovers just how much more advanced and experienced these movements were than we are romanticising over it in the comfort of our lounge rooms.  They fought and died for this stuff, watched their children starving, ate rats, sacrificed their personal property, liberty and livelihoods for these ideals over and over again.  And yet now we must rake through the grate of our society to find the evidence of their struggle.  

We honour our dead from every foreign war, even our wars of colonial conquest are revered, but where are the statues to the Wobblies, the Pullman strikers?  The Freedom Riders and civil rights movement heroes are eulogised today and had their great spokespeople, the likes of MLK quoted endlessly in the media and by today's candidates.  But we still squirm a little at the sight of a red flag and pretend it was nothing to do with us, in spite of FDR and the unions and the social economics which have been bedrock to the country for most of a century.  I wonder how many unionists realise that the Cold War propaganda about communists and their own tendency toward labour nationalism has helped sterilise their own heritage.  Most people forget the First International had nothing to do with Lenin or Soviet communism and was held in Geneva in 1866.

Seems to me we need to give the country a little lesson in history, eh?  Build some respect for the movement and get the credibility it deserves.  The IWW has a special place because it is a uniquely home-grown American movement, pre-dating the Russian Revolution and co-opting of socialism to another form of tyranny.  They have given us a grand heritage that we can be proud of and which we should, perhaps, honour more formally as a national treasure.  Let's talk more of this.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 08:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

For sure.  Its obvious to me that if people like you and I(aka not progressives, but leftists) can respect the motivations, and limitations, of those who ask to lead, maybe others can understand that our common ground and heritage is the foundation where a new movement can be developed.

This we're number one mentality (we're good- you suck)also led me to switch over to comedy to find and encourage whats left of collegial good will in the political world.  But hey, thats why I love Will Rogers!


by timlhowe on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 08:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

They get all tangled up playing political paint-ball.  It's fun but immature.  The collegial good-will is a renewable resource, we'll get there.  I think you have really helped, as I said.  I think our leaders are wiser, sometimes.  And sometimes not.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Shaun,  Im new to this and wrote a response to you that actually was to me (wha?) but if you go to 2 posts below your flag youll see mine.

I just went to their website.  Beauty.  It already got me interested in helping with an evgent theyre having in SF fighting the Shuttle boat company that takes tourists to Alcatraz. I live on a boat on the water, I know these kinda guys, they are hard working folk, they are fucking them.  (Is no one allowed to make a living wage these days?) Bastards!

I think the best thing that a new IWW could do is to educate folks about union history.  You obviously are a respected person here at DD.  (on the other hand - as you will see - Im new here and have been told to `watch myself'...Ha!...like an opinionated, threatening twenty something could scare me quiet...Lordie!:)  You should write you thoughts about these folks and your thoughts and history in a `Diary'.  

Many of these people who are so ready to explode in rightous anger and say that they will vote for Nader - if they dont get their way - dont have any understanding of just how BAD things used to be.  College grads all, they dont know or understand just how bad things are for working folks.  Im against the war....but Im also FOR these people.   That is why I got in this fight and that is why I remain committed.  This war will end (somehow, someday) but the struggle for workers justice will continue.  Hopefully, is just beginning.

ONE BIG UNION!

Now I gotta get you to read the Catholic Worker!  (Subscriptions, still a penny a year!)


by timlhowe on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 11:38:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

I'll try to find the Stegner book, thanks for the tip.  I am beginning to think we are almost ready for another socialist revival.  I want to promote the history of the IWW and other movements, too.  History is my passion, I have been reading non-fiction history all my life and it is a terrific way to remind people of the core issues that are really activating events in the world today.  I will consider a 'dairy' here but I have found a certain lack of interest in these things but there must be a way to pitch it that gives it relevancy to the development of current progressive ideology.  Arguably it is progressive ideology, what else is there?

Anything that creates solidarity is good, the tactic has always been to divide and rule.  That's the power of One Big Union.  If the bosses can convince college graduates that they don't share the condition of workers than they have won again.  If we can convince them otherwise than our cause is strengthened.  I totally agree and it has been a winning tactic of the Establishment for far too long.  Time to get back to some good old fashioned activism that exposes the divisions that have been used to disempower us for decades.

That is why I find your theme of solidarity in this primary so powerful.  The reaction of other posters here has been subtle and amazing and I thank you for calling me on it.  Barack vs John vs Hillary is the one thing that could possibly sink our chances and it is incredible to me that we could be so stupid.  You are a true believer, Tim, and we need an army of you.  Thanks again.

The struggle for workers solidarity is never gonna' end buddy, we will be marching together on this one for as long as we are working and living in a society which honours money and power.  But our only true enemy is ignorance of the things which bind us together.  Let me know how you go with the IWW, I would be proud to be a member and I am going to study up an the history some more.

Incidentally, have you ever read the history of the Spanish Civil War?  It would bring tears to your eyes, man.  Never did the movement get closer to realising their dream and never did they fall so far at the hand of the forces of reaction.  Something like 500,000 anarchists, syndicalists and radicals died in that war, in pitched battles with the fascists and murdered in their homes.  And the powers in Europe and the US abandoned them to their horrible fate.

When I saw the old guys of Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade marching in DC in '71 side-by-side with the Hell's Angels and the Black Panthers and the Viet Vets Against the War it really was unforgettable.  The people united can never be defeated.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 05:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

wow.  cool.  yeah.

My real knowledge of the Spanish war comes from novels and Orwell's ode to catalonia.  (strangly, just the other day I found on the internet and downloaded `the internationale' sung in Catalon.

This here party (aka- our side) is divided.  In 2000 the people who quit and took their ball home didnt understand that the people at the bottom rung were the ones who were gonna be damaged by their `purity'.  The `pure ones' had the benefit, mostly, of stable lives, job mobility and open horizons.  You know, as I know, this aint true for many, many folk.  Thats why I am fearful to see this happen again.  

One Big Union!


by timlhowe on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 05:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

You know, it's funny, but since you and I found common cause the other day this feeling seems to be spreading on the site.  It's infectious, isn't it.  I noticed Pravin asking your advice about Clark and getting a good lesson in political science in the real world.  And George has calmed down.  And Jallen's great diary about the economic positions of the candidates.  It is truly amazing.  Nothing is so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

Maybe we can get the candidates to believe it too, eh?  Well done, Tim.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 08:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

really, is this true?  I cant figure how to move all around here and see all that stuff...plus Im a lil shaky from a few people whove written me to say I cant write and I cant think!  (If you prick me, do I not bleed?)  And of course I was warned to not disrupt the class, cant forget about my warning!


by timlhowe on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 08:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night... (none / 0)

Ha, no sale.  I saw your responses and you made your point pretty well.  Don't let them rattle you, as if.  I recommended your dairy too.  Saw that.

What are you having trouble with in navigating the site?  Try using the Mozilla Firefox browser if you aren't already, you can have multiple different browser tabs open at once.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:35:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

This fellow Gibbs has done a disservice to his candidate and all Dems by introducin the BS GOP-Media scripting into this campaign.  It was not a minor issue and if you dont see this your blind, dim or delusional. I am talking about some of the language that was used by the Obama campaign the other day in response to Hillary's campaign and the Dowd column. By that, I mean the reference to the "Lincoln Bedroom".  (Which Dowd mentioned THREE times in her column) That canard, that the Democrats `sold' out the Lincoln Bedrooom to raise money for the DNC was a very effective weapon that was used by the  GOP to draw first blood from Al Gore.  It has also been investigated and was proven to be a bogus allegation.  A study commisioned by the Congress and GAO have shown that the number (and type) of guests who stayed in the White House during the Bush years (both Sr. and Jr.) were consistant with the numbers during the Clinton period.  (The Wash Post actually had to admit the numbers of shady guests they reported included young Chelsea's sleepover friends in their totals) The problem with that understanding is that the truth didnt come out until Gore had been labeled, defeated and retired.  False GOP scripting placed George Bush in the White House in 2000.  It is disheartening to me to hear my own side giving any credence or reference to these false, dangerous and distorted myths.

We have worked for years to keep the GOP created and MSM media delivered mythos and scripting from dominating and destroying our candidates.  I don't think that we should become `enablers' for our real enemies (the GOP-MSM Junta) just because it will possibly give a fleeting advantage to our favorite candidate.  There is too much to lose in the long run, because I truly believe that giving into any of the "scripting" will surely come back to haunt all of us.


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:30:35 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

Well, according to Matt Stoller's link to this NY Times piece, Obama has backed down and is throwing "Gibbs under the bus":

Detour from High Road in Clinton-Obama clash

Quote:

But when it came to tallying the final score on the most intense engagement so far in the 2008 presidential race, even Mr. Obama, the junior senator from Illinois, seemed to acknowledge that he may have been outmaneuvered.

In a telephone interview Thursday, Mr. Obama said he had not been aware beforehand of the statement his campaign had put out Wednesday morning responding to the public demand by Howard Wolfson, Mrs. Clinton's hard-driving senior communications adviser, that Mr. Obama denounce Mr. Geffen and return the money he had raised.

Mr. Obama said he had been on a red-eye flight, getting a haircut and taking his daughters to school as the fight broke out, and strongly suggested he had told his aides he wanted to stay above the fray.

"I told my staff that I don't want us to be a party to these kinds of distractions because I want to make sure that we're spending time talking about issues," Mr. Obama said. "My preference going forward is that we have to be careful not to slip into playing the game as it customarily is played."


by georgep on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 12:38:11 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

One thing to keep in mind is how the media cycle differs from the actual decisionmaking process that goes on in campaigns.  

I think that this story shows a good response by Obama overall.


by sterra on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:13:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

boy you bounce around dont ya? barrack respond correctly, gibs screwed up bigtime. i guarantee he wont last past spring...heck, he might not last past sunday...at the levels inside where these things are examined, trust me, ive been there, they are kicking the sh*t outta him.


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

So, the agressive rebuttal complete with widely debunked cheap Lincoln bedroom slams and "she needs to apologize for Ford's racial remarks" stuff was appropriate, but also Obama's renouncing of these very same comments a day later?  

That seems like rather cynical hardball tactics, pouring sticky-sweet sugar over the spice generated yesterday.   I doubt that you are correct with your assessment here, that it is rather indeed a case of Gibbs overstepping his boundaries and on balance appears to have somewhat derailed Obama's "hopeful journey"-express, which led to Obama to overthink the matter and issue the statement he did.   But, if you are correct, what a way to play hardnosed "good cop, bad cop."    On balance he still comes out looking pretty bad here, but at least most of the blame is pushed onto Gibbs, who probably does not mind taking the brunt.    


by georgep on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:24:43 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

None of these posters endorsed the Lincoln bedroom remark, true or otherwise, which originated with the Dowd interview, as has been pointed out several times, and was repeated by Gibbs.  And it would probably be preferable if the Obama campaign can fight fire with water in future.

But there is not the slightest doubt that this was a calculated attack on Obama's positively themed campaign by Hillary and to the degree it elicited a response on her level of politics it has succeeded.  But I am delighted that the Obama campaign responded energetically and emphatically, if committing an error of judgement.  An error, mind you, of a kind which to the Hillary team is all in a normal day's work.  Is this because Obama's campaign is judged to a higher standard?  You bet it is.

I take Jerome's point about Gibbs, and Tim's that Gibbs probably copped it within the Obama campaign team as a consequence, and I hope that is a lesson to them to fight fire with water in future.  But fight they must, as must be obvious to all by now.

And the Ford racial attack remains the ugliest contrivance to date in this Democratic primary contest, likely Hillary's or her minders' doing based on the shrink-wrapped deniabilty with which it was delivered, and fully deserved the response it received.  Just because Obama doesn't advocate 'slash and burn' politics doesn't mean he isn't entitled to call them on it when they pull it on him; quite the contrary.

And after all the to-and-fro on this Senator Obama comes out with a genuine statement that doesn't denounce his staff or diminish his responsibility, but which attempts to re-establish the kind of politics that he was attacked for advocating in the first place.

The Obama campaign is unlikely to have had anything to do with Geffen's original statements.  They overreacted, as judged by the higher standards to which his campaign is held, and then reaffirmed those standards in a statement from the candidate himself that admonished his staff and admitted a slip-up on everyone's part.

And your assessment is on balance he still comes out looking pretty bad here?  Well, suit yourself.  I know which candidate I am supporting.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 08:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

yup - it seems that all those defending gibbs gop scripted meme slimes have been undercut by senator obama himself.  good.  ive always liked barack. but im curious...what flavor cool aid were you fellas drinking yesterday that made you think gibbs words were proper and defensible.

now get yee to the daily howler, repent and sin no more


by timlhowe on Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:53:17 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I don't recall anyone defending the Lincoln bedroom remark, if that is the GOP scripted meme slime you are referring to in your comment.  The Ford apology comment, well, I reckon the Hillary campaign had that one coming.

I like Barack too and I am glad he took ownership of this in the end and potentially Jerome's well publicised crab-wise attack on a Democratic presidential candidate's judgement, at least, for a staffer's activities years ago, will be a benefit to the Obama campaign in the long run.  I sure hope so.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 08:16:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

it is exactly about the lincoln bedroom and is a very big thing...read rhe dailyhowler about this will ya?  bob knows whats at risk... while so many others here are like - oh hillary attacked first...


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:23:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

I actually followed your link and had a look over there.  I'm not clear on which article you were referring to, if any, but I spent awhile reading what was front-paged and having a look around.  I did feel the Lincoln bedroom thing was very outré and unnecessary when I read the original response from the Obama team.  I wish they hadn't used it but I can't say I find it quite as radioactive as you obviously do.

And I did think the Hillary attack was calculated and subtle and in it's own way pre-emptive on Obama.  I still believe that, especially after watching Wolfson banging away on the whole thing in spite of the endless repetition of the Geffen remarks as a consequence.  

And as I've said I thought calling them on the Ford remarks was appropriate.

But the real issue is can the Obama campaign retain a reasonable degree of integrity in the face of this kind of attack and still remain on message with an elevated approach to campaigning.  This will be interesting to see and I am hopeful it will be possible.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:36:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

thats exactly what i was talking about and using the lincoln bedroom remark cannot be accepted or acceptable, nothing else...gibbs should resign.  This was not a minor thing.  The MSM all has made this a flap over a billionaire - so most just follow that shiny object - and ignore what a risk we are in if our candidates campaign uses nuclear weapons to swat flies. Of course, there is a chance that Hillary may be the nominee and if we use these frames now - I GUARANTEE YOU - that the media will consider them inbounds and pretend that they were proven untrue. (as everybody seems to have in the last 3 days)


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:02:08 AM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

oops meant never proven untrue


by timlhowe on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:54:16 AM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

             War Games

Who shot the first rocket
really doesn't matter does it?

Who suffered the first casualty?
the answer doesn't flatter, does
it?

How much blood's been splattered?
in the air is chit chatter, codes and
doors shut tight, locked forever closed
well to the public for sure

Leaders leading us in the wrong direction
taking no constructive criticism, hearing no
objections, families being torn apart, how can
we tell the difference between two exposed hearts?

Flags folded neatly, words chosen carefully, discretely
sons lost in the mayhem, daughters never to be seen
again, the cause has yet to be defined, while the
lives and limbs disappear, from roadside mines

The news report 65 souls in one month alone, why
isn't that enough to bring them home? how can
they fight and win, that which they can't see, would
our leaders deploy their children? ask and see

Oil, oh did I mention Oil? Is there any honesty left
in this world? a pandora's box has been unleashed
too much grief from Iraq's streets,  what a crooked
hand we were dealt, is this war all about wealth?

Shame on those who know it is, have they ever thought
about those who died, probably wanted to live? I know
it's not politically correct to say these things, yet we desperately
need a change, because let's face it, no one wins at "War Games"

Poet:Tina Marie Clarku
Copyright: 2007
lyricistleo59@yahoo.com


by lyricist on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:52:17 PM EST

Re: Much ado about Robert Gibbs and Obama (none / 0)

             War Games

Who shot the first rocket
really doesn't matter does it?

Who suffered the first casualty?
the answer doesn't flatter, does
it?

How much blood's been splattered?
in the air is chit chatter, codes and
doors shut tight, locked forever closed
well to the public for sure

Leaders leading us in the wrong direction
taking no constructive criticism, hearing no
objections, families being torn apart, how can
we tell the difference between two exposed hearts?

Flags folded neatly, words chosen carefully, discretely
sons lost in the mayhem, daughters never to be seen
again, the cause has yet to be defined, while the
lives and limbs disappear, from roadside mines

The news report 65 souls in one month alone, why
isn't that enough to bring them home? how can
they fight and win, that which they can't see, would
our leaders deploy their children? ask and see

Oil, oh did I mention Oil? Is there any honesty left
in this world? a pandora's box has been unleashed
too much grief from Iraq's streets,  what a crooked
hand we were dealt, is this war all about wealth?

Shame on those who know it is, have they ever thought
about those who died, probably wanted to live? I know
it's not politically correct to say these things, yet we desperately
need a change, because let's face it, no one wins at "War Games"

Poet:Tina Marie Clark
Copyright: 2007
lyricistleo59@yahoo.com


by lyricist on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 06:54:20 PM EST


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