Why Movements Move Me

During the fight with the Republican Noise Machine last week over the stunning revelation that junior staffers for John Edwards have the gall to disagree with the theological doctrine of the Virgin Birth, I made it clear that one of my main priorities in determining which Democratic candidates I support in primaries was the degree to which a given candidate has both the ability and the willingness to build the progressive movement. I have received quite a number of emails and comments about this stance, and so I would like to take some time to explain it. Let me start by saying that I was not exaggerating for rhetorical effect, or otherwise distorting my feelings on the matter. This is one of the main, if not the main, criteria I use to determine my personal selection of candidates. It also is not an over intellectualization of the situation, or simple, selfish behavior to reward whatever candidate who is willing to reward my constituency. This is something that comes deep from within my heart and my gut. Whether it is Howard Dean, Barack Obama, Anne Dicker, Ned Lamont or John Edwards, the candidate with the movement is the candidate who I want to be with.

Throughout most of my life, I have been enamored by the idea of movements and revolutions. During the decade I spent studying literature, I was always most excited by experimental, avant-grade work that took place during times of political and social upheaval (you can never read enough early twentieth century artistic manifestoes--fortunately, there is no shortage of them). When I studied critical theory and philosophy, I was always most interested in work that challenged established norms of government, the self, perception and knowledge with radical, but rigorous, new ideas (I was obsessed with Michel Foucault at multiple times during my career in academia). History has always been a favorite hobby of mine, and my favorite topics are invariably revolutions: American, French, Russian, Irish, Indian, Cuban, Eastern European--you name it. Also, no matter how many presidential candidates, members of congress, Democratic Party leaders, or other national figures I meet and talk with, my favorite moments in political campaigns are always large rallies (preferably those organized by volunteers, or those convened to celebrate an electoral victory). I want to be there at the moment when history happens, when the world changes, when consciousness shifts, and when the people rise up and throw off the shackles of the elite, the status quo, and the comfortable. I have wanted that for a long time. Before that happens, I want to be an active member of the small clique, coterie or circle that identified the possibility for massive change and precipitated its manifestation. Whether it is a revolution of the sort Ben Franklin or Tristan Tzara would identify, I want in. As William Wordsworth wrote in The Prelude about witnessing the world change up close during the French Revolution "bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven." Man, do I ever envy young Wordsworth. I want working for a candidate to give me a taste of the revolutionary feeling for which I long, and I want my regular job to do the same thing. For a long time, artistic and intellectual endeavors provided me with that spark, but when they ceased doing so I moved onto a career where that feeling was quickly re-establishing itself: online progressive activism. If I am willing to upend my entire life to search for that feeling, the least I should expect from the candidates I support most fervently is that working for them will allow me to sense it.

The two most common critiques I hear of this movement-based criterion are as follows. First, the candidate who has the movement behind him or her might not be a progressive champion. Would you really support a less progressive candidate in favor of the candidate with the movement? Second, supporting the movement instead of he candidate who actually has the best chance to effective change is ultimately a misdirection of resources. Would you really support a candidate with a large movement who does not have the best chance to actually take office?

To both questions, the answer is yes. I would indeed support a less progressive candidate with a movement than a more progressive candidate without one, just as I would support a less "electable" candidate with a movement than an "electable" candidate without one. Unlike many bloggers who bristle at being labeled left-wing, I am indeed pretty darn far to the left. As such, in the previous presidential election, I liked a lot of what Kucinich had to say policy wise, but by mid-2003 there was no way I could go against the massive movement I saw building for Dean right before my eyes. At the same time, I was disgusted by the notion that Dean's movement should be abandoned or simply transferred to another candidate. The latter is a truly preposterous and offensive suggestion that shows the extreme extent to which the political elite take political activists for granted.

The movement for Dean on its own was a more powerful--and more progressive--mechanism for change than any individual candidate could ever be, no matter how electable that person is or how perfectly progressive his policy papers might be. I think the three years since Dean's defeat in the 2004 primaries bear me out on this. The fifty-state strategy and challenging every district, the small donor explosion and the massive revival of volunteer, progressive political activism, the rise of new, independent, progressive media and challenging the corporate noise machine, standing up to Republicans and drawing a clear contrast, the silent revolution and taking ownership over the Democratic Party--that all found its seed resources in the Dean movement. I continue to insist that the ideas, energy, and resources which came from that campaign was the important difference between how Democrats fared in 2006. As much as the netroots were the difference in 2006, the Dean campaign was the difference in making the netroots for real. Even thought he movement was focused on an election, the movement was still more important than the election. Movements span multiple elections, and enter the nation's social fabric in seemingly non-political areas. The modern progressive movement is doing just that.

The candidate who is open to the movement, and who has the potential to help the movement, and how gets the support of the movement as a results will be the candidate I support during the 2008 primary season. Right now, for many reasons, the candidate most willing and able to do that is John Edwards. Barack Obama has certainly shown some ability in this realm, considering his 250,000 member Facebook group, and the 3,500 person, volunteer organized rally for him ten days ago Virginia. However, Obama still seems to be mystified by his movement supporters, more than anything else. If Obama is going to receive a more serious look from me, he is going to have to start embracing all of the remarkable activism that is being done on his behalf. And yes, there are other candidates who have potential too. Depending on how they act in the coming months, virtually every candidate (not Biden) comes to mind, even Hillary Clinton (although I'm not exactly holding my breath on that one).

Anyway, I hope that explains where I am coming from here. I have both a deep feeling for, and a strong belief in, mass progressive movements. I want to taste it again in 2008.

Display:


Was Dean a "movement"? (none / 0)

As someone who was an early and often Dean supporter, I did not view him as a "movement" nor did I view my participation (online or in person) as being part of a "movement".

Dean was a candidate who was authentic and spoke the truth about Iraq.  That is why I supported him.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:32:33 PM EST

Re: Was Dean a "movement"? (3.00 / 3)

Actually, it makes me really happy that you don't get it where I am coming from.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama has made some (3.00 / 1)

improvement however, today some conservative leaning pundits have pointed out the Obama's Springfield speech did not mention "democrat" or "democratic party" one time.

Hardly the way to start a Democratic movement


"Lobbyists Represent 'Real' Americans" - Hillary Clinton
by TarHeel on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Was Dean a "movement"? (none / 0)

"Actually, it makes me really happy that you don't get it where I am coming from."

But I know where you want to be...you would like to be one of the people in the audience in Springfield who had tears running down their face as Obama entered the race.  Think Wordsworth watching the French revolution unfold.

You want to believe.

To a lot of people, Obama is more than a candidate, he's the "crown of creation" of the US civil rights movement.

In that way, he fits your definition of a movement, someone you'd vote for even if you didn't agree with him because he was the spear head of a movement you did believe in.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

temper tantrum... (none / 0)


Progress is Personal | Connie Brennan | My opinions are mine alone
by msnook on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris did you know that Amanda resigned and (3.00 / 1)

Posted on Pandagon
http://pandagon.net/2007/02/12/announcem ent/
Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

I'm not sure why Obama's mystification matters to you: isn't the movement itself the most important thing, not the candidate's understanding (or, really, even 'promotion') of it?


by BingoL on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:33:46 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

If Obama starts to embrace the people working for him, I see real potential. But for crying out loud--to still have the almost bemused attitude toward volunteers that he has adopted, even after having huge grassroots and netroots support during his Senate primary in 2004? His meetups in Chicago back in 2004 were larger than the ones for Kerry or Dean by that point. And he is still acting like this is some weird, all new thing to him?

Yes, the movement itself is important. But as I repeatedly said in this post, it takes someone who is willing and able to support it that matters. Without that, ultimately I don't believe it will be very meaningful.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

Thanks for the response, that came out a bit snarkier than intended.

I'm not a big Obama supporter, but I'm starting to wonder how much of all my problems with him are due to his style. You say he's still acting like this is something weird: maybe that is just an act. He appears to favor, stylistically, a laid-back, laconic, kinda bemused approach to most things. As someone who prefers a more direct, fiery, confrontational, go-for-the-jugular style, this makes me distinctly uncomfortable, and I start worrying that his style of speech reflects his unwillingness to grind these bastards into dust beneath his chariot wheels.

But maybe this is just style. We all agree he's a smart guy. He was a community organizer, so it's not like this stuff is new to him. And if his meetups were that big, he knows there's power to be tapped, here. He's not just talking some 'gee, whiz', game, at this point, knowing how early this is?

I'm afraid this is gonna be taken the wrong way, but following Stoller's post about the 'Jewish political culture', I wonder if that's just what Obama doesn't have. He's not telling anyone, "I'm a fucking steamroller." And I'm  Jew, I like hearing that. Now, maybe Obama's not engaged in the right actions, either, and isn't capitalizing on the volunteers, etc., which would be a bad thing: but if he's just not talking Jew-y enough, I'll give him a pass. For now. Although ... Obama-Spitzer '08!

Hm. That got pretty OT. Well, at some point, I'd like to read a post about the criteria with which you judge a movement. Just in case you have a few spare moments.


by BingoL on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

good point about the act, the style (3.00 / 1)

I thought that myself when Markos posted snarkily about Obama's comment. I actually thought it was really cool that he had considered letting us entirely take over one of the people-oriented aspects of a campaign, like rallies and such.

I think you're right -- it's an act. He's talking to big corporate media types about this new power structure saying "Oh my, will you look at that! I might try to get in on that." That said, it fits into a style I'm not sure I like, the "falling up the ladder of power" style. But he could just be modest.


Progress is Personal | Connie Brennan | My opinions are mine alone
by msnook on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

I don't understand why you say he doesn't get it.  Please explain... I would have thought the grassroots push from his website with the social networking and empowering peopel to be fundraisers and work on his behalf is supporting the movement.  I'm serious in I am not sure why you feel the way you do and would welcome you to educate me.  


"I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington... I'm asking you to believe in yours!" - Sen. Barack Obama
by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

Can you tell me what, in your eyes, the movement is trying to accomplish?


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:50:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

The key for me on this point is support vs. use. Supporting the movement is a long term proposition. My concern is those that would use it to advantage.

This is my "pet" issue to watch for both Obama and Edwards. Obama had a lot of grassroots support in his primary win, and many candidates running supported his run through theirs. He didn't repay that. Edwards has embraced the netroots in message/tone, and when pushed recently he stood his ground.


Witty comment goes here...
by michael in chicago on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

Again, if you're taking this one quote in a post by kos -- that was taken out of context -- as proof that Obama's surprised by this.

From the whole Simon interview:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/020 7/2689.html

Q: But can we expect boldness to be a hallmark of your campaign?

Obama: I hope so. Some of it by necessity. If I am running for president against some very capable, well-organized individuals who have had years to set up an infrastructure, then we are going to have to do things differently to be successful. I can't just paint by the numbers. And I think part of that difference has to be is allowing our campaign to be a vehicle to be a participation to a lot of people who have been turned off by the process or haven't been fully engaged.

A great example was after the DNC winter meeting I went over to George Mason University. These college kids had organized a rally without any involvement by our staff. We figured there would be a couple of hundred people there, and there were 3,500 people. They had just organized it through Facebook on the Internet.

That kind of grass-roots efforts can be scary, in that I think it is hard for any campaign to give up any kind of control and there is a tendency to try to do things top down. I think we are in a moment where there is a possibility, not a certainty, but a possibility, of bottom-up activism that I think could reshape the political landscape.

And I think technology and the Internet have facilitated that. You started seeing that in obviously the Dean campaign in the last election cycle. But I think that is going to continue to grow and it will be important for us to channel that energy in a creative way.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

Once again, can you tell me what you believe the movement is trying to accomplish?


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

End of Iraq war. Universal health care. Alternative energy. And so on.

Any questions?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 04:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

good-god (none / 0)

How many times has kos posted something to the effect of: "Wow. We're up to 100,000 registered posters." Or, "Amazing. 1 million hits tonight... that's a new record!" I've seen similar remarks of achievement here. Is expressing a very human reaction of awe and humility at how large or how passionate the dkos movement has gotten being "mystified" by it, or having that reaction somehow translate into a feeling that it's all quite "weird?" Hardly. But Obama's not supposed to show similar awe and humility at the level of "movement" support behind him, right? He's just supposed to take in stride that 3500 people showed up to an event his campaign didn't lift a finger for. But not too much in stride, lest anyone think he is taking a person -- or a movement -- for granted.


by lapis on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

I agree about movements.  Candidates come and go, but making change is what is constant.  

Could you cross post this at dkos?  I think it is worth sharing after folsk comment here a little.


by littafi on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:35:49 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

During the fight with the Republican Noise Machine last week over the stunning revelation that junior staffers for John Edwards have the gall to disagree with the theological doctrine of the Virgin Birth

What Amanda and Michele wrote had nothing to do with the Virgin Birth, a significant part of Christian theology that even many progressive Christians on your side of this issue believe in. (I do not.)

What Amanda wrote was that the reason why the Catholic Church opposes abortion is to force women to carry more tithing Catholics to term.  Essentially she said that Catholic abortion opponents are doing it to make money.  That is offensive to many people, and not just Catholics.  It should be recognized as an offensive comment and noted as such.  

I have yet to see a comment from Michele that actually rises to anything other than strong language, but Amanda's comment was serious.

I fully support Edwards hiring Amanda and Michele on his staff, and keeping Amanda on his staff after the kerfluffle over her statements.  I believed your last post before Edwards made his statement on the issue was excellent and said so to many friends and bloggers.

But just because jackasses like Malkin and Donohue were the ones pushing this issue doesn't change the fact that Amanda had something to apologize for.  There are many, many progressive Christians out there who work very hard for the same goals and causes you do who were hurt by what she said and the subsequent minimization of that fact.

This obfuscation of what Amanda wrote, the minimization of the offensive nature of the writing, and the ridiculing of those who found them offensive accomplishes nothing and alienates friends.  There is no need for it, it doesn't help the movement or progressive goals, and I hope that those progressives who are not Christians and find us Christians quaint, weird, nuts or whatever will at least respect our feelings on this.


by nathan on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:36:58 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

I have a quibble with this.  The criticism of the Church or Vatican was indeed that their positions on both abortion and contraception are motivated by self-interest.  But that doesn't mean that individual Catholics have the same motivation for opposing those anti-natal policies.  

You can't transfer cynicism about the Pope to cynicism about all Catholics.

If Catholics are offended at the suggestion that the Vatican sets its policies with an eye toward swelling their ranks, that's understandable.  But it is not the same thing as suggesting that every Catholic thinks that way.  

If the accusation is directly insulting to the rank and file it is in suggesting that they are unwitting.


Booman Tribune.
by BooMan on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

I can see that, and understand it.  

However, when people attack some folks in the netroots we all rally around.  For many Catholics attacking the Pope or the Church leadership is attacking themselves.

All I am suggesting is that a little more care in discussing things that people hold dear -- including progressive people -- is probably in order.  

Bloggers are snarky and quick with a quip, and that can get us into trouble sometimes.  Snark is great when it moves the issues forward, but when it is gratuitous -- as I think Amanda's was -- then it is just hurtful and doesn't put us in a good light.


by nathan on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question (none / 0)

  Rudy Giuliani is a walking insult to Catholicism. He's twice divorced. He conducted a very public affair with a mistress. He supports abortion rights.

  This isn't some obscure blogger saying naughty words. This is the presidential candidate himself engaging in behaviors that are deeply repulsive to the same subset of Catholics that were theoretically offended by Marcotte's words.

 Have you heard ANY stories about these Catholics registering public complaints about Rudy Giuliani's anti-Catholic lifestyle choices?

 Why not?

 What can we learn from that?

 


by Master Jack on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question (none / 0)

Ahh, MasterJack, you know where I will go with this.

Giuliani is a right-winger and will be treated like one of the family.


by Crablaw on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question (none / 0)

   
  Now, why don't progressive Christians point THAT out as publicly as they complain about Marcotte?
by Master Jack on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 04:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question (none / 0)

I don't care.  What the right wing jerks say and do and how hypocritical they are is a given to me.  We can stop them by winning elections and bringing people to our point of view, not by complaining that they missed targets on their own side.

My point is that we cannot accept the same intolerant and hurtful remarks from our side that we will not accept from the other side.  In a sense, that is exactly what you are complaining about with Guiliani.

Donohue and Malkin and the rest are sons of bitches who shouldn't be given the platforms they have.

We are better than them, but being better is not enough.  We shouldn't grade ourselves on a curve with their behavior included, but on our vision of right and wrong.


by nathan on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question (none / 0)

 That's the problem.

 You can either work to get Democrats friendly to progressive Christians get elected, which means occasionally gritting your teeth and letting an idle offensive remark by a third party go, or you can duly wallow in being offended, broadcast your victimhood as loudly as possible, and undermine said Democrat.

 The right looks at the big picture. The left doesn't.

 That's why the right wins.

 We're bogged down in a disastrous Iraq war, the poor in this country are getting screwed, the deficit is out of control, working people are feeling a huge pinch, but hey, at least you got to tell the world how offended you were by Maricotte's comments. I'm sure it was all worth it.


by Master Jack on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 04:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

I was wrong about the Virgin Birth thing, and apologize to Chris.  I just saw there was a new kerfluffle from the idiot right about Amanda's review of Children of Man.

My apologies Chris.  I was wrong to single this post out.


by nathan on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:17:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

Minus your open mindedness on H. Clinton, I'm with you on this 100%.


Booman Tribune.
by BooMan on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:40:52 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

But isn't Bowers saying precisly that the candidate's progressivism is not the deciding factor? That the movement is the measure of the candidate?

So what about the Edwards movement do you find more appealing than the Obama movement ... and will you switch if the latter outpaces the former in ways you value (though you might still find Edwards himself more appealing)?


by BingoL on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:43:01 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

I'm not sure that Bowers is saying that, but I'll let him speak for himself.  I think there is an interelationship between the movement and the candidate.  Edwards has tried to create an explicit working class campaign/movement.  Obama offers something more illusory, a blending of differences toward a posited common good that he will discover/create.  To me, Obama appeals a lot to upper middle class folks and white college students who see a way to transcend race through his candidacy.  Others may see a way to transcend the real class and policy differences among us.  Of course, there is far more than that to his appeal.  

Edwards seems much more blue collar, yet, perhaps due his wife's influence, he also seem to see the netroots as a democratic town square.  For me, a movement for the sake of a movement is not enough.  It is what change you are trying to create.  Because I prefer the direction of Edwards, I support him. I'm not sure if Obama has a "movement" yet, but to the extent he does, it is more a cult of personality than policy based.
     


by littafi on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

Yeah, I guess Bowers said he'd support a less progressive candidate with a movement over a more progressive candidate without one ... but that leaves a lot of unclaimed territory. What if they both have movements (this is edging kinda too close to octogenarian bathroom humor ...)? What if a candidate who is twice as progressive has a movement half the size? What if he boards a train, A, travelling west ...

And what's a movement, anyway? How do we judge the strength and health of various movements? And the real question: why am I attaching all my questions to your poor innocent post?


by BingoL on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

All good questions.  Feel free to attach them to my post.


by littafi on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 3)

I support Edwards because I feel he believes in a movement to eradicate poverty and restore/enable a social democratic society that is not based the supremecy of the market in determining how one fares in life. I support him because I believe he believes that organized labor is essential in order to further a better life for all people in this country and on this planet.

Obama may believe the same things, but if he does, he is not making it the central theme of his campaign. Instead, his central theme is one of unity now, action later. I feel that's why he's been purposefully vague on economic policies, especially health care, trade, and unions. He could change my mind when I see what he proposes. But for now, his actual policies (except Iraq, CAFE, and ethics) are vague at best and not transformational. When he talked about ending poverty in his speech in Springfield, it was almost an afterthought. Kind of like, "Oh yeah, we should do that too.". It was the same thing when he mentioned unions. Whereas Edwards gave unions and poverty a central place in his speech at the DNC, Obama gave them an asterick. I don't mean to be unduly harsh, I like Obama and he could come around when he fleshes things out. But if he truly had the same fire in his belly that Edwards does, I have to wonder why he is not making these issues a central piece of his campaign.

I think people underestimate the importance of a strong trade union presence in a society for any progressive movement to really gain a stronghold. It is critical. They are a critical tool and means to provide a political education to people and to make them politically active. The internet is another such tool, but as Chris has pointed out, we've probably already peaked on that front. Edwards understands that if we ignore unions and the political and economic benefits they bring to society, we will not do the things we want this movement to accomplish. I don't know if Obama understands this.

I guess I should have put this in a diary, but that's why I find the Edwards campaign more appealing.


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

Same reasons for me.  He is an advocate by training, but is choosing to advocate for the things I want.  That's the movement.


by littafi on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:10:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 2)

Ok, my first post... don't flame me for going negative.

I am a big Edwards supporter, just contributed some money to him today.

However, I am tired of this Obama buzz stuff.  WHAT HAS HE DONE?  What is he for??  I know about his life, I know he's charismatic, I know he was against the Iraq war....  But what is he for?  What is his passion?  Who has he stood up for, or against?  

As for Obama's Facebook group:  over 262,000 members...
My guess is most are under 25.  
They have contributed a total of: $2,660 in the past two days (not bad, but considering the number of people, not great).
http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/ view/main/millionstrong
or check,
http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraiser s/16332

In the past 24hours the JRE Actblue page has raised ~$20,000.  
http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraiser s/16315

My message may sound negative, but it's because this current buzz is all hype.  Young people vote, but not as regularly as older voters.  I'm a young person myself, and I hear what my friends are saying... but I don't see many of them doing or planning to do much.

How many of Obama's Facebook members will contribute, volunteer, vote for him?  That's the key question.

And if you are an Obama supporter, please tell me what he is for...
-Zen Blade


by Zen Blade on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:44:48 PM EST

What has John Edwards done? (3.00 / 1)

Seriously. I have nothing against Edwards, but his resume up against Obama and see who's committed his life more completely to progressive values. Not just since the 2004 election. But for his entire adult life.

This "Obama doesn't stand for anything" has no basis, either. Just read his books, please. It will answer a lot of your questions.

What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read Arianna's latest... (3.00 / 1)

She goes right after the "he doesn't stand for anything" talking point. And knock it right down.

Arianna writes...

"Picking up the rhetorical shank bone, and accepting Obama's substance anorexia as a given, Russert asked, "Is there now a second phase of the coverage of Barack Obama where reporters and voters will start demanding from him real specifics on the real challenges confronting our country and world?"

It makes me wonder: don't these guys own a computer? If they took the time to surf the websites of any of the candidates, they'd see that the presidential campaign is already awash in real specifics on all kinds of real challenges. Indeed, they should go to barackobama.com right now and click on 'Issues." They'll see something called "Plan to End the War in Iraq," which is... a plan to end the war in Iraq. But maybe the war isn't a real enough challenge for Russert.

They could also check out the page on "Creating a Healthcare System that Works" and read a bunch of real specifics about "Harnessing the Power of Genetic Medicine," "Fostering Healthy Communities," and "Fighting AIDS Worldwide." Though, to be fair, Obama has been willfully vague on what the co-pay is for a dental cleaning, and exactly what allergy drugs would be in the formulary of his prescription drug plan.

In fact, just two days into Obama's official campaign -- a full year and nine months before the election -- we know quite a bit about where Obama stands. But there is a much larger point here than the quantity of meat on Barack's policy bones. It's that when it comes to presidential politics, specifics on the issues are not really the issue. Campaigns for the White House -- especially this one -- are about leadership. Specifics are nice, but they're meaningless without the leadership skills needed to turn the policies into reality. And leadership is a much, much harder thing to come by than position papers."

Read the whole thing... Please.

What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read Arianna's latest... (none / 0)

From Obama's website:

"Fostering Healthy Communities

How a community is designed -- including the layout of its roads, buildings and parks -- can have a huge impact on the health of its residents. For instance, nearly one-third of Americans live in neighborhoods without sidewalks and less than half of our country's children have a playground within walking distance of their homes. This lack of a safe place to walk and play is a major contributor to the growing numbers of overweight children. Senator Obama introduced the Healthy Places Act to help state and local governments assess the health impact of new policies or projects, whether it is a new highway or shopping center. Once the health impact is determined, the bill gives grant funding and technical assistance to help address potential health problems."
--------------------------------

While I do not disagree that having local parks is a good thing.  I would suggest that the Senator watch "Super Size Me", and perhaps after studying the effects of new highways, he can help subsidize real grocery stores in inner city neighborhoods.

I took a look at this one section because I thought the section sounded like it might be something novel or substantive that other candidates weren't talking about, but this is not an issue that grabs me.  People aren't getting fat because they don't have playgrounds/parks nearby.

Look, one day Obama might have real issues that he is pursuing that distinguishes him from a generic candidate, but that day isn't today.  I hope it's sooner than later, but it isn't today.

-Zen Blade


by Zen Blade on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read Arianna's latest... (none / 0)

Um that would really be something left to local government.  It wouldn't and shouldn't be up to the federal government to micromanage every neighborhood development but instead provide the resources and support for local governments to build their communities.  If grocery stores are your concern and sort of local issue, then I would suggest petitioning your city council, mayor, etc.  It begins with them not feds.  


"I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington... I'm asking you to believe in yours!" - Sen. Barack Obama
by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And Edwards? (none / 0)

I feel like this will be an endless argument. Not just with you, but with everyone who embraces the "he doesn't stand for anything" angle.

It doesn't seem likely that any amount of evidence will convince this group.

Again, go read both his books and see if you still think he doesn't stand for anything.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read Arianna's latest... (none / 0)

Sometimes one is able to be vague by being overly detailed.

I've read his health care page and it does nothing to talk about how to get to universal health care. I'm holding judgement until he comes out with his plan, but it's silly to say he has a health care policy for this country when all he has right now are a few ways to control costs and even a suggestion for how to improve health care in another continent!


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The stands-for-nothing talking point... (none / 0)

 ...applies perfectly to Hillary Clinton.

 Projection is sometimes an intramural sport.


by Master Jack on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

Good idea.  Just gave $25 to John Edwards.  


by littafi on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Barack Obama's Going Big (3.00 / 1)

The entire underlying theme of everything that Obama has been saying screams "GO BIG."

The Kos post you refer to missed the entire point of that Obama quote -- and was taken out of context from a longer interview. One in which he specifically praised the Dean campaign...

He's not scared of giving up that control. In fact, he's quite clearly made the case that the only way he can win is by embracing this new dynamic.

It was one of the central points at the end of his announcement speech.

As a former grassroots organizer, this is not empty rhetoric from him.

If you haven't read Dreams from My Father and The Audacity of Hope, I highly recommend them both. They provide a lot of insight into who Obama is and what he believes.

What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:45:15 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama's Going Big (3.00 / 1)

Right, but the question is, is this a movement for a movement's sake or does it stand for enacting long-lasting transformational change that will create a better life for all people?

I mean the thing that concerns me is that Obama still seems apologetic for wanting to use government (and yes, even government spending) as a partial means for enacting social change.  


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama's Going Big (3.00 / 3)

adamterando: I've been watching Obama closely, and have read both his books -- have you?

Obama is a true progressive. He was a community organizer on the South Side while Edwards was raking it in as a trial lawyer (not that there's anything wrong with that). He was a constitutional law professor and liberal, yet highly effective, Illinois legislator while Edwards was an Iraq-war-sponsoring (not merely authorizing), ineffective Democratic Senator.

Read Obama's books and listen to what he's saying. Obama IS this year's Howard Dean - except he's smarter and more eloquent and more palatable to the apolitical, and has the power to grow the movement 10x beyond where Dean took it -- which is how big it's going to have to be to actually accomplish progressive goals.

Obama has said, repeatedly, what the long-lasting transformational change is that he seeks. Just listen:

But here's the thing, George Mason, here's the thing, young people, it doesn't bend on its own, it bends because you put your hand on that arc and you bend it in the direction of justice.
  • It bends in that direction because you decide that you're going to stand up to a war that should have never been waged.
  • It bends because you decide that we need a health care system for all Americans.
  • It bends because you make a decision that every child in America deserves a decent education, even if they're not wealthy.
  • And that every senior citizen deserves to retire with dignity and respect.
  • And you make a decision that we don't want to just be feared in the world, but we want to be respected in the world.
  • And you make a decision that we're willing to make the sacrifices and take the steps, to avoid melting of the polar ice caps, and a drowning of the coasts all across this world.
You make that decision.

And if you grab that arc, think about all the power that's represented here if all of you decide that you are going to get involved. If you all grab that arc, then I have no doubt, I have absolutely no doubt, that regardless of what happens in this presidential year and regardless of what happens in this campaign, America will transform itself. And the future for my children and my grandchildren and my grand-grandchildren is gonna be bright."

I like Edwards' willingness to talk about poverty, but for God's sake y'all, Obama is our movement leader.

Read the Anonymous Liberal's Case for Obama... it's very good...

by ri on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama's Going Big (none / 0)

I've read parts of his most recent book, but I haven't read the whole thing. I read this speech and I still don't know what he wants to do. If he really believes in substantial changes to our society.

The examples he listed above of what he believes in could all have been part of a DLC or 1996 Clinton campaign memo (except for fighting against the war).

I see nothing radical here...yet.


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama's Going Big (3.00 / 1)

I read the Case for Obama and it told me nothing of what this movement hopes to accomplish. All it told me was I should support Obama because he could get elected and would be very popular so he could "get a lot done".

Uh Huh. So again, what would he get done? What is the purpose of this movement? Right now, the purpose seems to be to elect Obama president.


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama's Going Big (none / 0)

What would John Edwards do that Obama would not do? Raise taxes on the middle class? Invade Iran?

Obama is much more progressive than Edwards as is clear from comparing their voting records and overall life deeds.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:01:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What you wrote (none / 0)

"While there is no way I will support Edwards with Amanda and Melissa are fired, I will immediately become a staunch Edwards supporter if they are not fired....If someone is willing to stand with us, that should mean something big, and should not go unrewarded."

Your above post seems to walk back from being "a staunch Edwards supporter".

Are you now a staunch Edwards supporter? Or was that just an idle claim?


by The Cunctator on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:45:31 PM EST

Re: What you wrote (none / 0)

Well, Donohue got his scalp, Amanda Marcotte resigned today.  Edwards accepted that.  Given his rather weak defense of the hire and his expressions of having been offended by their words, I'm not terribly surprised.

So it would appear that walking back from that support would be entirely appropriate.


by libdevil on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What you wrote (3.00 / 1)

So Edwards should have refused to accecpt her quitting?


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What you wrote (3.00 / 1)

Why are you so obsessed with that? Do you follow your friends around with recording devices, and constantly quote to them how they aren't living up to every adjective they use? I thought you said your favorite type of beer was IPA. Now, I see you are drinking a lager, even though there are two IPAs on tap at this bar. Are you walking away from your statement that IPAs are your favorite beer?

I don't even know what I could do to demonstrate to your satisfaction that I am an Edwards supporter, much less satisfy your consistent harping on the word "staunch." "Gotcha" games like this are the staple of our idiotic contemporary political and media scene. For some reason you feel compelled to replay them here.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris... (none / 0)

I'm sorry but I don't think you're being fair.

I asked you specifically if you "endorsed" or "supported" Edwards and you clearly stated that you considered "supporting" to mean that you would put in considerable effort for Edwards. And I also asked if you thought there was a conflict of interest in your explicit support of Edwards. You pledged not to use the front page to advocate for him.

There was nothing in our short back and forth that indicated in any way that you were going to "support" any other candidates.

I don't think the commenter above is playing "gotcha." I too was genuinely surprised (and pleased) that you seem in this post to be more open to Obama... And less specifically in the Edwards camp.

Just saying that there are many, many folks who probably feel the same way. Given the context of the last week, I think it's a pretty reasonable reaction.

You may disagree. But, I really don't think the commenter is being disingenuous.

But, if we're talking "gotcha," then I think that your assessment that Obama is mystified by the netroots phenomena just from this one Kos post is equally unfair and simplistic.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Consistent harping"??? (none / 0)

This is the only time I've asked this question.

Why are you being so defensive?

Why don't you just say, "Yes, I am a staunch Edwards supporter" and move on? Or say, "Okay, maybe I was being a bit hyperbolic?"

I'm not trying to play a gotcha game.


by The Cunctator on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They sang the red flag, they wore the black one (3.00 / 2)

One episode in history that I find particularly moving is the Spanish Civil War.  All these different idealistic radicals of all different kinds, including socialists (under the red flag) and anarchists (under the black flag) joined up with the loyalist forces to fight against the fascists.  It's always struck me as an amazing time, despite the fact that it was bloody and horrific and the bad guys won.  

I really don't have any special feelings about revolutions, one way or the other.  I'm an old-fashioned utilitarian, and my support for Edwards arises from a belief that giving him the nomination is the best way to maximize overall happiness, due to the combination of his progressive views and what the polls say about his chances in the general election.  

But it's always kind of neat to have allies whose well-considered political views differ significantly from my own.  So, viva la revolucion!  and here's to the greatest happiness!

(Title lyrics are from The Clash.)


by Neil the Ethical Werewolf on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:49:50 PM EST

I am for Edwards also (3.00 / 1)

I find him leading on many issues. Before Obama came out for withdrawal, and before Obama said Universal Health Care.

Edwards has been leading the other candidates, IMO.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:50:06 PM EST

Re: I am for Edwards also (3.00 / 2)

Actually Obama has been preaching Universal Health care since he was in Illinois... SO you are very wrong in that regard.  Edward did formalize a plan first however.  Obama has been against the war from the start... Edwards didn't comeout for withdrawal until he was out of the senate and the polls showed a majority of Americans against the war... That is not LEADING!  I waiting for someone to have the balls to ask him why he waited so long.  I won't give Edwards a dime, even if he wins the primary unless he answers that question.  I will vote for him, but little else unless that is answered.


"I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington... I'm asking you to believe in yours!" - Sen. Barack Obama
by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am for Edwards also (3.00 / 2)

He's made it fairly clear why:

He was in the middle of an election campaign.  Once the campaign was done and they were not longer in bunker-mode, he thought about it and realized it was a mistake.  It was a mistake he had to admit, period.

If you are wondering why he didn't have time to think about it during the 2004 election, well, if he had "flip-flopped" in the middle of the election...

If you don't like Edwards because he has flip-flopped since leaving the senate, that's your right.

-Zen Blade


by Zen Blade on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Could you give me some idea of (none / 0)

when and where in Illinois he wrote it, or talked about it in a speech, some actual dates, places and times to back up your statement:

"Actually Obama has been preaching Universal Health care since he was in Illinois..."

And as far as not giving a dime, that is fine there will be plenty of local candidates or other campaigns for everyone who choses to help democratic candidates, you will find one to help I am sure..


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am for Edwards also (3.00 / 1)

Perhaps he was a bit preoccupied with helping his wife recover from breast cancer.


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:27:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

was leading on Katrina more than a year ago (3.00 / 1)

Of all the Dem candidates, edwards has done the most to call out the Bush administration on the criminal neglect of New Orleans, which has gone on for more than a year now. And he has organized trips to NOLA for people to help rebuild some property that was devastated down there.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards has been trying to erase (none / 0)

his conservative voting record, yes. He was early with doing that, to be in the right (left) position before 2008. After 2008, who knows?

Obama has been a progressive all his life.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:04:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How shall a progressive justify DLC candidates? (3.00 / 2)

Back in  2002, Feingold was interviewed by Progressive magazine

Q: Can a progressive get the nomination?

Feingold: I think so. What it would require is somebody who had a lot of students and young people involved, traditional progressives, labor people, women. There is a coalition there. I think it can happen. The conventional wisdom is that you'll do well in Iowa and New Hampshire, but then you're going to get it somewhere else. That's not what I felt in North Carolina. That's not what I felt in Texas in Austin. That's not what I felt in Michigan in Ann Arbor. And I know those are the more liberal parts. But let's face it: Those are the places that have a lot of influence in the primaries. So I think it's untrue that a genuinely progressive candidate couldn't win the nomination. It would depend in part on whether labor leaders decided they had to go with the DLC candidate or if they'll fight for their members and go with someone who has a more progressive trade policy.

This is a time of great anxiety, and that's tragic. But it means it's a time of real political change that can, in theory, occur. And we should seize the moment.

http://www.progressive.org/mag_intvfeing old


by Rob Price on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:05:45 PM EST

Movements never work in America (none / 0)

Never? Hardly ever. (And not in partisan politics.)

And thank God for it! Europe would have been spared untold misery in the last two centuries had its politics been the preserve of the goo-goo gentry and ward-heelers as in the good old US of A!

Of course, there have been a zillion movements in America of one kind and another. The abolitionists and the slave-o-manes fueled a civil war; and the prohibitionists helped the growth of organized crime no end. But mostly they spring up, flourish for a frantic while, and then lose their zing.

Witness the extraordinary progress of labor unions in the US: the AFL unions of the Gompers era were the opposite of progressive, and loathed engagement in partisan politics. (Not a glimmer of a chance of a labor party.) Then there was the concidence of the Depression, FDR, and the Comintern's little notion of the Popular Front - and a brief but spectacular inflagration of industrial unionism, before the whole shebang got coopted by the state in the War, and ended up politically a shadow of their pre-War selves.

As far as the Dems are concerned, I suppose the closest the party got to melding with a movement was in the Vietnam era, and not, perhaps, a terribly happy experiment.

There was the civil rights movement; but that really didn't operate through the party system; until Bull Connor and Lee Harvey Oswald did their thing, the parties were more than a tad inclined to keep their heads down and hope the issue would go away.


by skeptic06 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:16:37 PM EST

To the Barricades! (3.00 / 1)

You just reminded me why I refer to myself as a political romantic.

Though you're in charge of reading the 20th century artistic manifestos.  I had enough of them at first glance...


Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.
by boadicea on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:22:03 PM EST

I can identify with this statement (3.00 / 2)

Emphasis mine:

...movement I saw building for Dean right before my eyes. At the same time, I was disgusted by the notion that Dean's movement should be abandoned or simply transferred to another candidate. The latter is a truly preposterous and offensive suggestion that shows the extreme extent to which the political elite take political activists for granted.

Yup. Gotta agree with that one.


Witty comment goes here...
by michael in chicago on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:26:22 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

http://www.danablankenhorn.com/2007/02/w here_obama_is_.html Where Obama is Old excerpt -- The problem is his use of the Internet. His site has got a lot of eye candy, and potential for interaction, but it's interaction between supporters, not with the campaign. It's driven by old-line consultants. His announcement in Springfield was a TV event. He is of what is now the Old Media.
by Dana Blankenhorn on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:32:50 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

Amazing that you have the measure of the campaign in 3 DAYS!  Why don't you give it a little time before making your "analysis"?


"I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington... I'm asking you to believe in yours!" - Sen. Barack Obama
by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amazed... (none / 0)

Amazed you see something revolutionary about another gee-whiz white Southerner running for the Democratic primary and running away from the votes he casted there.


by alarabi7 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:53:11 PM EST

Re: Amazed... (3.00 / 1)

Right, because race and region of birth determine whether you can enact social change.

And how is saying "I was wrong" running away from a vote?


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amazed... (none / 0)

There is something revolutionary about electing a non-white male, you betcha.

For me, Edwards is a very charismatic guy who, as a Senator from N.Carolina, was very moderate in many respects and very pro-Iraq war. He did tap into some populism, so he was never your DLC type neo-Liberal pol, but he was no progressive hero.

I'm glad he understands how poor his judgement was with the Iraq war. I don't know if that changes his lack of judgement- his recent pandering to Israel with sabre rattling on Iran is a perfect example. I know he needs the net as his ATM machine as I think he was shocked at how well the "nobody" Dean was in taking on the establishment in '04 (in Edward's mind I think that was supposed to be him- he was supposed to be the non-establishment candidate).

So he is running to the left, suddenly a progressive-- hell  I'm thinking if the net pushes him hard enough he will suddenly come out for gay marriage--- on a host of issues.

You know I was an Edwards supporter in '04 and I thought I knew where he stood on issues. Now I just can't get over the feeling it's not the mission that matters to Edwards, it's not the issues, it's Edwards that matters to Edwards.

I'd vote for him in the General, but I'll be damned if I describe that vote as revolutionary.


by alarabi7 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amazed... (none / 0)

It's interesting that you'd come to that conclusion now that he speaks much more forcefully, compassionately, and truthfully rather than in '04 when he came across to me as just another politician.


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amazed... (none / 0)

Also, obviously there would be something revolutionary about Obama or HRC being elected since they are not white men. But it was a stupid comment to say that just because someone is a white male, they automatically cannot be revolutionary. That's just silly.


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:27:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amazed... (none / 0)

Well I agree, although there was more to my statement than that. It's what Edwards actually does that matters, and I hope he proves me wrong.


by alarabi7 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Movement is Happening... (3.00 / 1)

From David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager...

This announcement was different from any other in history. That's because, as Barack announced the campaign's start, over 50,000 new supporters across the country signed up and hit the
ground running.

What makes our campaign unique is that supporters instantly became leaders and organizers using the totally new BarackObama.com. The new site has all the information and tools you need to take this campaign into your own hands, and across the country thousands of people have already begun to put these tools to use.

The new web site empowers you to build your own profile, network with other supporters near you, find local events or plan your own, create your own or join a grassroots group, and take campaign fundraising into your own hands. You can even chronicle your campaign experience on your My.BarackObama.com blog.

Here's an astonishing fact, unmatched by any presidential campaign in history: in the first 48 hours, supporters founded over 1,500 local and national grassroots groups in support of
Barack's campaign.

Something special is happening. If you want to be part of it please explore the new BarackObama.com


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:57:22 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

While I admire your passion for the movement, I don't think what you want will necessarily occur with supporting Edwards or any Presidential candidate. In seeking national office, candidates will always opt for the broadest appeal vs. the most passionate appeal. Edwards I think has sought to tap into the $$ and the passion of the netroots, with the hopes of duplicating Dean.  He retained the bloggers while disavowing their statements in the strongest of terms. In effect, he played it down the middle.  I think his reaching out to the netroots is more strategy than conviction, which is fine with me. I do however think the progressive movement as a whole will come into its own with by working to elect progressive individuals to congress.  These individuals can then collectively shift the Democratic party's focus back to the plight of workers and people rather than corporations.  


by Kingstongirl on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:07:51 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

Elizabeth Edwards, his wife, posted in a recommended diary here and at dkos (it was cross posted) on Sunday.  She knows the blogs.  I suspect they talk.  Edwards also has posted and taken questions at dkos.  

Does he want to obtain netroots support for his campaign?  Sure. Does he want to raise funds from the netroots?  I sure hope so.  Better a bunch of $25s and $50s from us than corporate PAC money.

I think Edwards is trying to meld a campaign with a movement to some degree.  Whether he succeeds is up to us and to him.  Is he a candidate?  Yes.  Does he have an agenda?  Yeah.  To get elected.  Does he want to use the netroots to that end?  I hope so.  Done correctly, I believe it can be a win/win for Edwards and for the netroots.  That is up to people like Chris and to folks like us.


by littafi on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A gentle bone to pick with ya Chris (none / 0)

I appreciate and respect where you are coming from on this, so let me get that "bone" out of the way quickly so I can get past it with you.

I have no problem when you become partisan and declare support for one Democratic candidate for President over another.  Heck, I respect you for that; you have an opinion, you let us know what it is, you let us know why, and you aren't holding that opinion out of some obligation to a pay check.  More power to you.

But this is the second Diary I've seen from you recently where you discuss grassroots movements and the Democrats who support them where you did not even mention Wes Clark, though you were freely dropping names. Actually that is not exactly true. In the other Diary I am referring to; "Advice for Democratic Campaigns: Find the Netroots Zeitgeist", you did mention Wes Clark, but only as part of your history lesson intro.

There you said, in part:

"Wesley Clark best expressed the frustrations many activists felt at incompetent, unqualified Republicans running electoral roughshod over unelectable Democrats. Some candidates are closer than others to tapping into more contemporary progressive activist zeitgesit themes, but to date no one has achieved anywhere near the same level of success than Dean and Clark achieved.

The key for Dean and Clark is that they were never one-issue candidates for their supporters. It went much deeper than that."

And after that you acted like for all practical purposes General Clark has since vanished into the mountains of Kosovo with his grassroots movement with him.  Not a word on Wes Clark in the context of 2006 or 2008 came up in that Diary, nor does it in this one.

It is fine for me if you rank one two three or more Democrats higher in your esteem than you do Wes Clark Chris. It is not fine for me if you write Diaries to praise the contributions made by netroots and grassroots activist movements that are active now in part because they are inspired by progressive Democrats who support grassroots movements, and leave out those of us who collectively are active in politics becaue of and/or through Wes Clark.  That's not just dissing Clark, that's dissing us too.

We were there all across the nation in 2005 and 2006.  And Wes Clark was there at Yearly Kos, unlike most of the candidates you do talk about. Clark grassroots supporters were there for Tim Kaine and we were there for Jim Webb. We were there for Ned Lamont and we were there for Jon Tester, and so was Wes Clark.  

Eric Massa did a weekly blog on Kos during the 2006 campaign, he was every inch a netroots candidate, and much of his support came from Clark supporters, Chris. I spent time in Corning New York volunteering for Eric.  The unpaid volunteer coordinator for his Congressional campaign was a woman who flew in from California to help out Eric.  Yes she was a strong Clark supporter, and thet is how she got involved in Eric Massa's campaign.

You post this blog on a day when Wes Clark spent three hours blogging live at kos.  His subject:

"Is War with Iran Inevitable?"
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/12/ 122254/478

You were there, you recommended his Diary, you saw how many other kossacks joined you in doing so.  He currently has 739 replies.  Clark is now briefing the Progressive movement about Bush's plans to go to war with Iran. He is discussing strategy with us for stopping the coming war with Iran.

Good God man, I don't care who you support for President, but you mention Howard Dean, Barack Obama, Anne Dicker, Ned Lamont and John Edwards above, can't you at least also acknowledge the work that Wes Clark is doing with us to keep us all out of the next war?


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:08:17 PM EST

Re: A gentle bone to pick with ya Chris (none / 0)

Well, to tell you the truth, I started listing a lot of candidates, such as Massa and Clark, but then stopped because I realized the list would grow very long and some people who eventually feel excluded.

I know that Clark as a movement following. But just because I didn't mention every single candidate who has one doesn't mean that I was trying to ignore anyone. It just means there are space constraints.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A gentle bone to pick with ya Chris (none / 0)

Thanks, I'll put that gentle bone to rest now.

As one of the original netroots candidate movements that is still Eveready Bunny going strong, I thought Clark's support should make the space cut here, but by using your comment section I guess I accomplished giving it that space myself, lol.

For live evidence of activity for anyone who hasn't ever been there, or been there of late, Clark's blogger site never shut down after he withdrew from the 04 race, it just kept rolling.

It's quite active and still being used as a base for organizing.  Here is the link for anyone who would like to visit it and see for themselves:

http://securingamerica.com/ccn/


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:03:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 2)

I still don't understand why Kos and other insist that when Obama says:

I think we are in a moment where there is a possibility, not a certainty, but a possibility of bottom-up activism that I think could reshape the political landscape."
...

...he is either 1)at fault, or 2) failing in his ability to be a vehicle for change for the progressive movement.

I've never disagreed more or taken more offense to one of Markos' posts than that one.

As I see it, Obama does not belong to the movement - and that is where a lot of movement players (such as Markos, and even yourself Chris) may feel timid in supporting him. Dean, in many ways, did belong to the movement, and in many ways was dependent on it.

I have seen Obama peel off evangelicals like my sister, and stiff partisans such as the former head of my college's Republicans (at a southern school of 15,000 people). Obama has gotten these people on the other side of the isle to come out and WHOLEHEARTEDLY support him, and that is in part because he is not identified as much with the movement as some of us would like.

But I think that Obama is a movement candidate on his own. To me, I see the netroots and an Obama candidacy finding each other in the middle of the same battlefield, fighting many of the same sources, and not knowing wether or not to trust each other. He's got his army, and we've got ours. Aligning them could potentially make  us unstoppable, but it could also backfire if our own power as a movement is diffused and his candidacy is a let-down.

Personall, I see a netroots/Obama alliance as the best thing for...

1) The Netroots
Obama challenges us to look outside ourselves as a movement. He challenges us to join a man with his own movement inspired by many of the same motives as our own.

2)Barack Obama
The netroots/progressive movements involvement in the Obama campaign can help keep him honest and begin building alliances that can make him both a better Senator and better President of the United States.

3) America
Obama has it. He is a progressive who can soften the heart and mind of all but the hardest of partisans. That is America. He has what it takes to get We don't fully trust him and he doesn't fully trust us. but i hope that we work together. With an Obama candidacy, I believe that we give ourselves the power to allow America to be saved.

Respectully...
peace,
JW


by faithfull on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:13:40 PM EST

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

What are your sister and the former head of the college republicans hoping to accomplish in this movement?

What do you see as the goal of the movement?


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (none / 0)

My sister and the head of the CRs are hoping to improve the country and their lives.

I see the goal of the movement as empowering and protecting people and the environment.

All of us come together on those principals. Barack can bring people like them along.


by faithfull on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Movements Move Me (3.00 / 1)

Thank you. That's basically what I believe too.


by adamterando on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:48:55 PM EST
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