How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq

Earlier today, I noticed for the first time that a clear anti-Hillary narrative - weakness on the war - had taken hold.  It's a very damaging narrative for her, because it's an effective criticism that is not personality-based and won't raise an instinct that Democratic primary voters have to rally around those attacked by the right.  It suggests character flaws - stubbornness, weakness, caution, triangulation, arrogance - but it's a substantive criticism, not a Fox News-ified hysteria-induced creepy insult.

There is one possible response that Clinton could use to effectively defuse this narrative.  She can't at this point admit fault on the war, because that would be a craven concession to primary voters, a pander that would be tough to trust.  She also can't triangulate and argue that her vote suggests she is strong on national security, because that's no longer the world we're living in.  No, the only way to turn this around would be to take a really public and aggressive leadership role in beating back Bush's plan to invade Iran.

I don't know how this would work, since I don't understand the strategies involved.  But part of it for Hillary Clinton would have to be a very high-profile attack on Bush for baiting Iranian forces, and a call for Bush to remove carrier groups from the gulf.  Taking a leading role against an attack on Iran would allow Senator Clinton to argue that she is looking forward, not backward, and it would show that she is serious about doing so.  It would neutralize Obama's antiwar credentials, since she would be a leader against a new war, and it would sideswipe Edwards completely since he's poorly positioned on Iran.

It would be very hard to argue that Clinton was weak on Iraq, and it would be easier to trust her assertion that she wants to end the war.  If she actually took a leading role - and I don't mean a Senatorial role - against an attack on Iran, a lot of skeptics would have a hard time sustaining their skepticism.  The incentives that progressives would have to attack her candidacy would instantly be removed, since we wouldn't want to undercut her leadership on such a crucial issue as preventing a war with Iran.  

I doubt this will happen, but that's the only way I can see Clinton neutralizing the emerging narrative on Iraq.  

UPDATE: This New York Times article confirms everything I wrote about the anti-Clinton narrative. It's the war, primary voters don't like her on the war, she reminds them of John Kerry in 2004, and rivals are going after her on the war. And this narrative is in the New York Times. Triangle closed. There are two new pieces of information in the article - local officials are endorsing her rivals because of the war, and Mark Penn is driving the 'let's focus on domestic issues' strategy. Yglesias calls this 'slightly insane'. I think it's bad polling. Regardless, she's feeling a lot of pressure, and this Iran strategy will work.



Display:


Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

You have to deck Hillary at the debates.

Let's see Hillary get ko'd at the Nevada presidential debate later this month.


by Djneedle83 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:42:52 PM EST

question (3.00 / 0)

how many tough races have hillary and bill been through? how many tough races have any of the other democratic (or republican) candidates been through?

it will not be as easy for someone to "deck" hillary, when they themselves have been through few, if any, tough races.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: question (none / 0)

If she continues to triangulate .. it will be easy to deck her, so to speak ..  if you speak from your heart .. if you sound waffling .. you'll sink like a stone .. what exactly does HRC stand for?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:29:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: question (2.00 / 1)

So because her answer to the question (about if the war was a mistake) wasn't that the war was a mistake, she was therefore triangulating.

she was being diplomatic with her words. candidates who are reckless with their words say things that come back to hurt them.

one can infer from her answer (that she wouldn't have voted for the war if she knew them what she knows now) that she thinks her vote was a mistake.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: question (none / 0)

You obviously don't get it.  Being diplomatic?  What do you call Feingold's recent speeches?  You have to remember something, as much as you might like HRC, she has to win the primary before she can run in the general election.  Is she gonna win the primary by soft pedaling her vote on Iraq?  You and I both know the answer to that.  Why should be trust HRC's judgment?  Doesn't she remember the letter her husband got from Bill Kristol and his band of jack asses back in the late 90's?  When did Smirk ever show he was trustworthy?  Face it, HRC screwed up in a big way.  Do you read history?  Did you know the difference between the Sunni, Shia and Kurds?  Why should I trust HRC's judgment over Feingold, Gore, Webb and Obama?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

tell me (none / 0)

why does it matter how black and white her answer is? why does anything matter more than getting us the hell out of iraq without starting world war 3 in the process?


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:43:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Explain her shifting stance on deadlines (3.00 / 0)

She said in the past it was unwise to set a deadline for bringing back troops or ending the war. Now magically she sets a deadline which so happens to coincide with a change in power in the  US which HAS NOTHING to do with ground realities in Iraq.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:46:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain her shifting stance on deadlines (none / 0)

Explain Edwards' shifting stance on the war after the 2004 election.

if you can't justify hillary's positions (which have mirrored those of john edwards to a large extent), then you can't justify support for John Edwards.

and a shifting stance on deadlines doesn't show triangulation or even flip-flopping.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain her shifting stance on deadlines (none / 0)

I don't.  I support Obama... so I continue to call SHENANIGANS on HRC's Iraq position.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:21:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain her shifting stance on deadlines (2.00 / 1)

I have no doubt that if hillary or edwards had been representing inner-city chicago in the illinois state senate, that they would also have opposed the war in iraq.

it is a different story when you are in the senate.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:33:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain her shifting stance on deadlines (3.00 / 0)

So you are saying Hillary put her politial prospects over the country's security. That is treason.

So what is her story? I thought her story was "if i knew then what i know now". You seem to say "well she might have known back then, but she couldn't vote based on what she knew"


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The only is a new president (3.00 / 0)

There is no point in setting deadlines which the Congress has now power to enforce.  Any of us as public citizens can set our own deadlines for troop withdrawal but, just like members of Congress, unless we have the Constitutional power to remove the troops our deadlines are like erecting wire fences to stop rushing waters.

Hillary has set them most realistic deadline of any of the candidates.  She has said, "When I am President, I will bring the troops home."  That's as soon as she can realistically do it, and so that's when she promises to do it.

Meanwhile, I have personally set a deadline for the arrival of beach weather:  February 15!  But I'll forgive you all if you don't put on your bathing suits just yet.  It turns out that I don't control the sun and so my deadlines are just aspirations - wishes, like horses that beggars might ride.


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If having voted "no" is a panacea (3.00 / 0)

then why isn't Feingold in the race?  Obviously, all of the candidates would vote "no" based on what they know now.  But, if a 2003 "no" vote were such a sure winner politically, in the 2008 primaries and the general election, then surely Feingold would NEVER have backed out of running for president, since his victory was a foregone conclusion.

In fact, in spite of having voted "no", Feingold must have concluded that he would not get the nomination and win the presidency.  

If having voted "no" is an automatic winner, then why isn't Ted Kennedy running for president?  A "no" vote was substantively right, but not the political panacea people are making it out to be.


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:08:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A history lesson (3.00 / 0)

Your larger point that the Clintons are tough is absolutely correct.  Ed Jesser, Paul Tsongas's political director, likened Bill Clinton to a vampire in his ability to take hits and keep coming at you.  

But Bill Clinton was extremely lucky.  Clinton beat Jerry Brown and Paul Tsongas for the nomination in a year when all of them were considered the JV (because Gore and Cuomo, among others, were too scared to run against a popular wartime President).  If Brown had dropped out and stopped dividing the anti-Clinton vote with Tsongas, Clinton likely would have lost. Remember that each of those candidates was winning 1/3 of the votes in states such as CT and NY.  With Brown out, Tsongas would likely have picked up enough delegates to block Clinton and throw the nomination to the floor where it probably would have gone to one of the candidates too scared to actually run, like Gore or Cuomo (remember Tsongas already had won in NH (by 9 points -- comback kid indeed), ME, WA (by more than 2 to 1 against Brown and Clinton), MD, UT, AZ and 4 other states).  And Paul Tsongas was no Barack Obama or John Edwards as far as his speaking ability.  

Clinton then beat GHW Bush in a three way race with Ross Perot.  Had Perot not self destructed during the Dem convention, Clinton would have been another in the long line of establishment-chosen losers like Mondale, Dukakis, and Kerry.

The Clintons aren't invincible.    


by Flatiron Dante on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Luck favors the well-prepared (3.00 / 1)

So, was it "luck" or "foresight", "courage" and "vision" that led Clinton to enter the 1992 race with the belief that he could beat Bush I?

If the Clintons are so "lucky", it is only because they spend years preparing and positioning themselves to capitalize on opportunities to be "lucky".  Other words for this kind of luck are "preparation",  "foresight" and "vision".

Is Hillary "lucky" that the country is ready to embrace female leadership, or is she capitalizing on the fact that she had the courage to run for the Senate in 2000 when many people thought she would lose?

Is she "lucky" that she has a law degree and served on the national board of Legal Services Corporation, or is she capitalizing on a bet she made back in the early 1970's that her brand of leadership would find favor  three decades later, if she were sufficiently prepared and had the right experience?

Is Clinton "lucky" that she is the candidate most known for national health care efforts, or does this come from a risk she took over a decade ago to offer leadership in this area?

"Luck" favors those who make consistent efforts over time and prepare themeselves for the responsibilities and opportunities that will offer themselves in the future.


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Luck favors the well-prepared (none / 0)

You have a good point.  It wouldn't have happened if he also wasn't one of the most talented politicians around at the time.  My point is that even with all that skill and luck, he almost lost in a field that included Tsongas (a one term Senator with a speech impediment who had cancer and had been out of office for 8 years), Jerry Brown, Bush I (one of the worst Presidents in modern times), and Ross Perot.

On the bright side for those of us who aren't ready to make nice about the war, the same yutzes who advised Bill are advising Hillary and she isn't half the candidate her husband was.


by Flatiron Dante on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:33:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: question (none / 0)

Hillary has had it easy from other Democrats. She is used to getting unfairly bashed by the REpubs. Let's see how she deals with it if she has to fight legitimate criticisms.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:43:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Seeing as how it's not a debate, I don't see that happening.


by zt155 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

The Nevada thing is not a debate.  


by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:17:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

I saw them play that clip of her being defensive on the iraqi issue again. This time on Channel 4. I really think she's making a mistake to take this position. It makes her look out of step.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:44:29 PM EST

Re: How (none / 0)

She is out of step.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

defensive? how? (none / 0)

because she said something other than she made a mistake?


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: defensive? how? (3.00 / 1)

because in the clip she's responding to someone, and rather than just saying I made a mistake hearing it does sound like Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it." It's a perception thing- hearing it, it makes you cringe because it's like she's going to the line, but then taking a step back. It's just stylistically very dumb. It does matter one supports her position or not (personally I don't). But, the reality is that if you are going to triangulate she isn't doing it well just as listener. Or to put another way, you know how some people can bs as you so that you think "well although I disagree they are some how convincing me?" It's like listening to the GOP talk about family values- well who is not in favor of family values? until you realize they are full of shit. Here with Clinton her posturing just seems bs'ey.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you sound as black and white as bush (none / 0)

Her answer (unlike kerry's "voted for before voted against") was not logicaly contridictory. she said that she wouldn't have voted for the war had she known then what she knows now. it is not a contrictory or incorrect statement.

your argument relies on the following logic: since the question was if she would say the war was a mistake, and she didn't say it was a mistake, therefore she is triangulating and doing the DLC's dirty work.

she is being diplomatic. words matter in presidential races, and candidates have to be diplomatic with their words. if they don't, they risk gaffes that can come back to hurt them.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:28:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you sound as black and white as bush (none / 0)

The problem is it took her 3 long years to knwo enougb to say that. Even if one gave her the beneift of doubt, which I will for this just one time, did it take her so many years to gather enough information to know enough to realize the war was a mistake?


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you sound as black and white as bush (none / 0)

and it took edwards until after the 2004 election to know this. Is 2 years acceptable to learn, but not 3 years?


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:53:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you sound as black and white as bush (3.00 / 2)

that's a non answer. you can try that answer on the public and see if they buy it.


by bruh21 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (3.00 / 0)

hmm.. interesting argument, and it certainly calls Clinton's bluff on the issue of enlarging or reducing the conflict in the region.

to go one level up, I rather like the way we are leveraging (or trying to leverage) the early primary season start into actual results on policy.  kind of reminds me of the $89 billion vote back in 2003, but this time we get an additonal 6 - 9 months of leverage.  also, it's leverage unavailable to the other side, since the republican position on the war is so toxically unpopular.

i would have to imagine that Clinton's main substantive accomplishment here would be both public posturing and actual efforts to pass legislation that directs Bush not to use the army to attack Iran.  I'm not a constitutional scholar, but Congress does have affirmative warmaking powers, therefore I imagine it has negative powers as well.  Of course it's all academic since I can't imagine that kind of bill overcoming a filibuster, but there you go.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:58:59 PM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Considering the top news story now is that Iran is aiding Iraqi militias, I don't see it happening.


by zt155 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:00:56 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

There is zero chance the DLC candidate will do the right thing when it comes to Iran.


by Bob Brigham on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:15:41 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Edwards? he was a member of the DLC as well.

as was Bill


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:17:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How (none / 0)

Edwards hasn't hung around that crowd in years.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:26:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How (none / 0)

Sorry, as far as I know, Edwards hasn't been with them for a while.  A guy tried to use that on Edwards on Kos, but couldn't come up with anything since July 2003, shortly after the war began.  Edwards has come far since then.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

correct (none / 0)

yes edwards hasn't been involved with the DLC for years.

about 2 years, ever since he left the senate.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:31:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

really (none / 0)

exactly how has hillary "hung around the DLC crowd for years"?


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really (none / 0)

She is in charge of policy


by Bob Brigham on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:40:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you're not quoting me (none / 0)

Bill Clinton and Al Gore were among the early leaders of the group back in the '80s.  That she is still involved shows the Clintons' commitment to liberal economic policies.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill DLC (none / 0)

Just one of the reasons I don't like Bill Clinton or old Al Gore, founders of the DLC and Super Tuesday.


by msstaley on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:27:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

honestly (none / 0)

if clinton did more bad for the party and the country than good, it must take A LOT to make some people happy


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton Presidential Legacy (3.00 / 1)

Just what is the Clinton legacy.  He had eight years and not a lot to show for it.  Remember that surplus?  Gone, partly because Clinton's imbroglio hurt Gore and along with many other things put in Bush.  A Republican Congress is a Clinton legacy.  Clinton just did not get much positive long lasting stuff done.  He had two years of a Democratic Congress yet where is the Clinton legacy?


by msstaley on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:56:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Presidential Legacy (none / 0)

As I have stated before .. the Clinton's are all about themselves ... if Clinton was so popular .. why didn't it translate into winning more seats in Congress?  It took Smirk 6 years to lose Congress


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

to be honest (1.00 / 1)

clinton's legacy was modernizing the party. actually we bloggers are a product of the clinton legacy. he removed the last vestiges of the New Deal from the party (even though we still share many of the same ideals of the New Deal). he finsihed the dissociation of the party from the choas of the late 1960s. he transformed the party from a 40% party to a 49% party. We are now finishing that job by transforming the party to a 51% party.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:58:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: to be honest (3.00 / 1)

I would just like to add... re: "actually we bloggers are a product of the Clinton legacy"

Please note, the 'new' Clinton would like nothing better than to 'pulverize' us...   If she wins it really will be the new republican-lite party, and we'll be pushed even further out of the party infrastructure!

Attack numero 1 from new "Let's Talk" Clinton: refresh your memory a while back when Hillary's Carville/Matalin hybrid tried a Coup d'état at the DNC where she wanted to crown Harold Ford, her new vision for Democratic Party in Dean's position.  Where no doubt his first job would be to put the grassroots party building project out of commission.  When that didn't work she put 'ole Harold Ford closer to home in the DLC:

MR HAROLD FORD

  • Bankruptcy Reform Bill Y
  • Flag Desecration Resolution Y
  • 527 Reform Act of 2006 N
  • Military Commissions Act of 2006 Y
  • PATRIOT Act Reauthorization bill Y

Yeah us bloggers are remnants of the old Clinton legacy she would definitely like 'purged'.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: to be honest (none / 0)

Hillary didn't ask for Dean to be replaced with Ford, James Carville did that.

Carville doesn't speak for the Clintons.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: to be honest (none / 0)

Please don't be naive... Why do you think she employs so many consultants - To hang around to drink beer, she has 'people' to craft her message, deliver it and implement it.  Carville is up her butt and Harold was too.

AND it's not always money that is the reward... just the promise of earning the next million on the next book, or a one off 'job' seems enough to keep people happy!

Urghh I wish people would Wake Up coz we have got much time.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: to be honest (none / 0)

If he did as you say he did, "removed the last vestiges of the New Deal from the party", then that would be enough for me to despise the man.
Liberalization is not modernization.  Liberalization may include the integration of societies, but it also includes the disintegration of states, laws, order, and humanity.  Liberalism is nearly as awful as conservatism.  Particularly when liberals are not very liberal socially.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: honestly (none / 0)

What are your highlights of the Clinton years? ... I am curious to hear them.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:36:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

honestly (none / 0)

there were a lot of things clinton did that I now see were wrong. Nafta was one good example. Rwanda was another. Gays in the military would be another.

but there were a lot of good things. he stopped the genocide in the balkans. he ended the violence in northern ireland. the sanctions imposed on Iraq may have been hell for the Iraqis, but they resulted in saddam losing all of his WMDs and not getting them back. Israel and North Korea were stablized (until Bush destroyed all of that work). Plus the budget surpluses, reform of welfare, ect.

But the most significant thing clinton did right was that he made the country work. the federal government was managed well. he managed the economy well. he managed foreing policy well. he may not have been perfect (and he wasn't, by any means). But he left the county in better shape than it was when he came into office.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:03:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: honestly (none / 0)

What was wrong with gays in the military?  Are you against gays serving at all?  Or are you saying that Clinton's pragmatic solution to the issue does not go far enough?


by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:28:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: honestly (none / 0)

"don't ask don't tell" didn't work for gays, and it didn't make the right wing any less angry.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: honestly (none / 0)

If your assessment of his terms is mixed, why do you so enthusiastically defend him and his wife?


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She can't be "Strong on Defense" (3.00 / 0)

while advocating NOT using force against a potential threat. She would totally tank - she'd won't gain the anti-war vote no matter what she does and she would be painted in the middle as weak on the use of force - not good.  Her only out would have been to declare she had been lied to back when we would have believed her.  Now, she has to stick to her guns cause all she's got on Iraq is that she's somehow consistent.  


by David in Burbank on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:18:13 AM EST

Re: She can't be "Strong on Defense" (none / 0)

Her current strategy is correct. She has to be seen to be willing to defend the country should the circumstances demand it. The anti-war vote is not hers to lose. The people writing and complaining about her use of language support other candidates.


by kundalini on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:54:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

She could have tried the McCain Keating defense.  McCain was one of the Keating 5 so he admitted his stupidity although he didn't admit to actual legal wrong doing just the exercise of poor judgment.  Knowing he had to insulate himself on this issue he became a leading voice on campaign finance reform and then he would actually bring up his Keating experience and talk about how it made him realize the need for strong campaign finance reform.  This also ended up giving him the illusion of being a maverick.  I don't know if Hillary can do this at this late stage in the game unless she becomes very aggressive taking Bush on in not only the military aspect of Iraq but also the profiteering in addition she could go after the other foreign policy issue like how Bush abandoned the Israeli peace process along with creating new problems with N. Korea and Iran.  If she can pull something out of her hat then she would truly be a masterful politician.


by msstaley on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:25:51 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Good call. Makes a lot of sense.


...dust in the wind. we are all dust in the divine, flatulent, wind.
by nezua limon xolagrafik jonez on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:26:50 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Hasn't Clinton said that she wouldn't withdraw funding for Bush's little escalation? It'd be hard to take your strategy of leading the charge if she won't choke off the monster.


by AggieDemocrat on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:40:55 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

You can't defund the escalation. the republican congress funded the war with enough money so that bush already has all that he needs to escalate.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Actually, that is not right.  


by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

how so?

the exective branch can appropriate its money as it wishes. it can certainly appropriate money that the republican congress gave for it for the war in iraq as it wishes (no strings attached, of course)


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:37:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

plus the escalation has already begun. it will be have already been implimented by the time they run out of the money that the republican congress gave them.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:38:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

She needs the money to continue building those permanent bases for 2009...!

Hillary coming out over Iran... my pigs eye... She is so full of crap.


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:51:15 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Matt,

Your suggestion to Hillary is a good one; However, it won't solve her problems. Or for that matter, any other potential candidate"s unless accompanied by a well- conceived, well-thought-out plan for peacefully settling the Iran dillema.

Unfortunately, Hillary still seems to be a "light-weight" in politics. She needs to work quite a bit on her plans for the country and what she could bring to the table to calm the world's leaders and finally could she succeed in building world consensus? Hillary definitely needs help with her campaign and maybe with her views on the world. She can get such help from a world-class lady like Madeline Albright. I personally believe Ms. Albright is the brightest of the bright when it comes to world politics.

Poor Bens Journal

   


by PoorBensJournal on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:57:58 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (3.00 / 0)


It's not a narrative or a weakness at this point.  You and Chris are jumping the gun- none of the other people has the cred to be more than a protest candidate against her at this point.

by killjoy on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:19:58 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

How blind are the mighty, and there followers...  Two days into the campaign and Obama is running big fat rings around her and she is sputtering prevarications about the one issue she wishes would go away.  Are we watching the same election?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But why do Clinton's poll numbers keep going up? (3.00 / 0)

If you say she has "weakness" regarding Iraq? She makes the same case Kerry made in 2004. The same case Edwards made in 2004.

It's a bit of conceit that those candidates who voted for the Iraq war, Biden, Clinton, Dodd, Edwards, need to do some kind of ritual absolution to please a small fringe minority.

Clinton has been steadily rising the polls vs. Democrats and Republicans so whatever complaints people have about her characterization of her Iraq vote, the public is past it.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:02:01 AM EST

she has (3.00 / 0)

because political junkies like us make up a small minority of the total presidential primary voters


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:08:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

you think Iraq is a matter of political junkies? I hope you aren't one of her staffers advising her.


by bruh21 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:16:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (3.00 / 0)

if the blogs represent political junkie opinion (which they probably do, more or less), then hillary should be in the single digits, in about 5th place, in the national polls of democratic primary voters.


Constitution of the Roman Republic
by EmperorHadrian on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:36:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

She hasnt even begun a debate yet. If we went by early polls, Ned Lamont wouldn't even have forced a primary, let alone win it. You do know Lamont registered barely a double digit poll number early last year.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

 clinton's name is why she's a head. no one ever said she doesn't have built in advantages. we are pointing out where she also has built in weaknesses. in other words her name recognition  doesn't change the fact that iraq is the central issue on people's mind. you can't just wish that by claiming it is only about online activists. doublespeak hurt kerry. you can keep saying until you are blue in the face that is unique to the Internet , but the fact is you are only hoping that's true. we have two election cycles now (Kerry's lose because he "voted for it, before it voted against it" and the GOP's lose in 2006). The point is Americans do care about this. So long as we re there It will come up again and again. It's not something she will asked once, she deflects and she moves on. I've already seen a clip on the news multiple time this weekend alone in NYC, and I haven't been looking for it.


by bruh21 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:20:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

I disagree.  You usually get a lot more informed voter in the primary than the general.  That is why the DLC and the GOP strategy is to go Left/Right in the primaries and then to the middle in the general.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:32:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

HRC has 40% of the primary vote at this stage according to recent national and state polls. There is practically no sign that her support is weakening. Her numbers amongst women are exceptionally strong.

Meanwhile the netroots supports other candidates and gets itself in a frenzy over the language used by candidates with regard to their position on the war.


by kundalini on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 06:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

its feb 2008. you are right about the polls, but i'm not all that impressed because until now she hasn't been running a candidate clinton. no one hasn't said this isn't potentially hurts to lose. what they say is that she can lose it. being cocky to say well she can say anything is about the equivalent of the anything but bush mantra in 2004. she can lose this if she makes missteps. the polls don't reflect what's going to happen, it reflects what people know up until this point. they know her name. they aren't as sure of the other candidates. it strikes me you and the otehr person are arguing out of two sides of your mouth to convince yourselves of something. as you said, the electorate is not yet fully paying attention. stoller made it clear that he's not claiming that she absolutely will lose , but is pointing out a hole in her defenses. you and the other poster being defensive about that weakness is a bit bizzare to me. it's a bizzare argument to claim no one will care about the Iraqi war and what candidates think about it come winter 2008 in the Democratic primary.  She can certainly say what she is saying now and not much damage will occur, but that's not really the argument being made. it's a long term one abotu the impact of her approach. i offered up my impression about how it sounded, and the response back was also this kind of - its the netroots argument. it's a silly argument. I hadn't thought about it but Pravin is right- the Lamont team won the primary because it was more important than peo on Lieberman's side wanted to admit. if I were you, i would spend less time trying to convince someone like me that it don't matter and more timing talking to whoever you know is also on the campaign or helping out about the general impression of her statements as being shown on TV.


by bruh21 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (3.00 / 1)

Here is my argument: Matt Stoller is wrong in assuming that HRC is vulnerable on the Iraq war. The reason why he is wrong is because HRC's supporters do not consider the Iraq War to be the only criteria on which to judge candidates. They have already taken in consideration her position and either find it acceptable or are prepared to live with it because the like her for a whole variety of simplistic and complex reasons. The people who care about the exact phrasing used by candidates, are those who aren't going to vote for her in the primary.

In order to beat HRC you have to convince some of her 40% to vote for someone else. If the war was the key issue for any of her current support, they would already be voting for someone else. It is totally the wrong issue to use to beat her.

The media has attacked HRC since 92. Anyone supporting her at this stage, 15 years later, is likely to be accustomed to it, and probably takes little notice.


by kundalini on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:13:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

Her support is a mile wide and an inch deep. Most of it is name recognition- one of the twin towers of advantage in politics, but that can be overcome. Don't confuse that with deep support that will ignore what she says and does. It's not feverent support. That's why Stoller's point matters because you assume something you shouldn't.


by bruh21 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:43:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

Nonsense. There is no evidence to support such a view. In fact the total opposite is true. HRC's supporters are ridiculously loyal as you can see by viewing her poll numbers over a period of time - Gore in, Gore out, Kerry in, Kerry out, Obama out, Obama in, Bayh in, Bayh out, Warner in, Warner out, Feingold in, Feingold out; HRC's numbers barely change.

Democrats have known HRC for 15 years. Look at her thermometer ratings, she has 40% scoring her at 81-100 and another 32% scoring her 61-80 so it should come as no surprise that she leads the field. Labeling that level of support as name recognition is an absolute travesty.

From Quinnipiac National Thermometer Rankings:

       Dem    
0-20     7%    
21-40    5    
41-60   16    
61-80   32    
81-100  40    
DK       1    
RF       -    

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?Rele aseID=990&What=&strArea=;&st rTime=0


by kundalini on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

you keep talking around the point I'm making and frankly I am tired of talking to you. Good luck.


by bruh21 on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she has (none / 0)

You are a political junkie? yet you somehow believed Bush back before the Iraq war was initiated. If you were a political junkie, you would have known Scott Ritter and others were speaking out against this.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

Hillary Clinton's supporters accept her stance on her Iraq vote.  You pick one guy from the audience in N.H. and make his question a major news item?  Hillary explained that she did not vote to give Bush pre-emptive authority to attack Iraq and this is backed up completely by the speech she gave on the Senate floor "before" she voted yes.  Hillary's campaign has just begun and expect to hear more about what she actually voted for and expect her extreme criticism of Bush to continue.  

This continued idiotic demand that Hillary fall at the feet of the netroots Dems and say exactly what is demanded of her is redundant and the Matt Stollers of the world would love nothing more to get her to comply so they can then say "Too late!" As if Stoller would ever jump over to Hillary's side anyway.  Give me a break.

Support whoever you like. Stop trashing Hillary. It's pathetic.  You sure as heck get your noses out of joint when anyone questions John Edwards or Barack Obama, or when anyone publishes anything about them that isn't 100% positive. Barack Obama - zero foreign policy experience.  John Edwards - already has three or four faux-scandals haunting him.  No, they were not deserved but it makes you question his judgment and the wisdom of his strategy team.


by marycontrary on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:27:59 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Who are you to say we should stop trashing Hillary. We made very good points on the problems with not just her vote but the way she has behaved over the last few years regarding Iraq and Iran. It is a total package of her conduct, not just one vote that has some of us riled up.

And what exactly has she learned now that she was not aware of in 2004? Or 2005? Or even 2006 at which time even quite a few repubs turned around on this issue. Oh, no answer from you.

And EXPLAIN THIS. Why do you reply with a blatantly false comment implying any criticism of Obama or Edwards is squelched here. Not only have MYDD readers criticized both Edwards and Obama, the MYDD admins have done the same. If you cannot answer this, you need to shut up because you propagate falsehoods and that is not protected here. No one is stopping you from bashing any democrat you do not support as long as you stick to facts.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:36:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I think Mary is correct. HRC has about 40% of the primary vote at this point according to national and state polls. Her supporters do care about the war but do not consider it to be the only criteria on which to judge candidates. If you think her support is going to drop because of her use of words regarding the war you are sadly mistaken.

The people getting all excited about this weekend's incident are those that support other candidates. HRC's support consider her position to be reasonable and aren't going to change their minds on this issue at such a late stage. I mean her position has been clear for years.

If you don't like it vote for someone else.


by kundalini on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:41:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Front Runner (none / 0)

As front runner HRC is open to attacks on all fronts including the press, the net, the right-left and center.

The other candidates rely on this as extra amunition.

It comes with the territory.


by aiko on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:36:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

I also agree with Mary. Hillary's sudden vulnerability is an invention of MyDD. I watched the clip of the Tilton question and there is no way Hillary's answer will derail any of her supporters. Hell, just listen to the clip. There is immediate applause. Twice. She is forceful in tone and that's more than half the battle.

I'm hardly a Hillary supporter. My allegiance is shifting between Edwards and Obama, with Obama edging ahead. He's like a guy with a big serve, simply able to do much more with few words.

Someone said it best here the other day, that anti-Hillary is the new Dean. I didn't agree with Dean as the best hope in 2004. IMO, that cycle was always very simple, a 50/50 nation and only a charismatic populist nominee like Edwards with a chance to bump an incumbent who had so many fear-based advantages. In 2008 I think it's very cloudy, Democrats with a likely generic edge but an uncertain GOP nominee and severe variables like first black and first woman among our top tier. The netroots will thrive in the general election but if it wants to impact the primaries a candidate needs to be identified early and boosted, like Dean in 2003. You can't expect a flimsy and desperate anti-Hillary tirade to be enough. If she fails it will be via her own mistakes but you need to make sure someone is sitting there close enough to edge over the top, like Webb in Virginia last year.


by Gary Kilbride on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:04:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

THe key would be selling the other candidates as no less committed to all the good things they support Hillary for without her baggage on the middle east.

I don't know why people would want to disregard Iraq after her DLC buddies kept saying how national security was the reason the Deaniacs lost in 2004 , yet they want to be given a pass on national security because it does not suit them anymore. Candidates should use her DLC supporters past words against them when they show up on talk shows boosting her candidacy.

And other candidates shoudl emphatically be aggressive in saying that anything Hillary does for them , they can do too, and they will be more courageous than her in making the right decision when it comes to matters of war. It is not an EITHER Iraq War OR  Remaining Progressive Agenda election.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:29:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

I don't think it is an invention.  Lots of pundits and reporters on Sundays talk were talking this meme too.

HRC is going to be asked about Iraq again and again, until she comes up with an answer that suggests culpability for war due to her vote.


by aiko on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope she ignores the apology pundits (none / 0)

They don't have her or our best interests at heart. They want her to apologize for the same reason that Republicans are always demanding apologies:  to make her and us look bad.

Any apology she gave would come at the expense of her campaign AND the dominant perception of the Democratic Party.  It's much better to be perceived as unwilling to grovel for votes than to be perceived as lacking a backbone and submitting to intimidation and pressure.  These are basically the choices we're going to be given in terms of memes.  

If Hillary were to apologize the media would NOT congratulate her.  Instead, they would say that the Democrats were in full retreat from their IWR votes, which, in their minds, would be morally equivalent to the Republicans' loss of the war itself.  


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope she ignores the apology pundits (none / 0)

Thats ridiculous.  I want her to say that she is sorry for supporting the war, because it is an awful war, and it never should have happened.  I do not seek an apology because I want her to look weak, it is because I want a moral candidate.  Anyone who continues to support this war, and not think it is wrong that it happened, is simply immoral in my book.  I can forgive people who were duped, or made a mistake, but if she will not apologize, I will perceive her as immoral.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Then please explain why Mr. Tilton is known, by name, not only coast-to-coast but worldwide?  I saw his name in The Australian yesterday.

Is he the little boy who asked why the Empress is not wearing clothes?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Of course Hillary's supporters accept her stance on the Iraq vote.  And as there are fewer and fewer of them they will continue to accept it.  The ones who do not accept it will find a different candidate to support, won't they?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 06:39:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton has no weakness on Iraq (3.00 / 0)

First of all, Clinton is sorry the war occurred and has turned out as it did.  I haven't spoken with her, but I think I can channel her spirit on this.  Is there anyone in America who is not sorry that the war occurred and that it has turned out as it did?

Now, I know this is not a popular opinion, but Clinton's poll numbers don't support your contention that she has a weakness on Iraq.  If anything, John Edwards weak poll numbers support the opposite contention: an apology on Iraq leads to lower numbers among Democrats in national polls.  It certainly doesn't lead to higher numbers.  Clinton's poll numbers increase while she refuses to apologize, and Edwards sinks after apologizing.  Apologizing is not popular on this.
Clinton's Iraq position is not a political weakness, empirically, even though we disagree with the war and her vote.

Secondly, I strongly agree with you on Iran. A war is about to break out with Iran and Clinton can help herself and the country by helping to avert that war.  How?  By insisting that Bush take no additional steps and stop bating Iran until and unless he has received Congressional approval for military and covert action.

The problem is this:  Bush has ALREADY received Congressional approval for covert action in a Republican Congress.  The Democratic Congress would have to dial back the clock on covert monies and programs already approved.

Demanding that Bush seek Congressional approval could easily backfire.  Bush would demand to know the circumstances under which Congress would grant approval and then Bush would endeavor to invent those circumstances, as he did with Iraq.

The other alternative is for Clinton to say, "I want Bush to successfully end the Iraq war before he commences another one.  Let's see this "war President" show his competence in Iraq before he bites off more than he's able to chew.  Iran is six years from getting a bomb, and America is two years from getting a competent President who knows how to make war.  This is not the President for that war!"


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:46:55 AM EST

Re: Clinton has no weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Show me some correlation where Edwards numbers dropped becaue of his apology. I know he won some grudging support from us after his apology even if he will not be our first choice. I have not met a single person who shifted away from Edwards because of this reason. Anytime I see someone waver on him, it's because they are not captivated by his presence in interviews. His wife seems more direct to the point. Also his initial name recognition advantage is fading as more famous candidates enter the fray. It doesn't help that he has taken a step back on Iran.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:33:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, so it's everything that's sinking him (none / 0)

But Edwards certainly hasn't gotten any bump by being the "candidate with the most complete apology".  This is probably because no matter what kind of apologies the canidates give, it doesn't change the votes they took back in 2003.  A "yes" vote will always be a "yes" vote, no matter how far a candidate crawls on his knees with a mea culpa.  Would we want to establish a precedent that a good apology erases the political effects of a bad vote?

So, let's get on with the business of ending the war, instead of focusing on the quality of the mea culpas.


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:15:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, so it's everything that's sinking him (none / 0)

History is just as important as the future.  More important, actually, because were are actually somewhat aware of what happened.  I think that the "somewhat" part is why Hillary has so many supporters, because she has the support of a lot of low-info voters, voters who will be under-represented in the primaries and especially caucuses, the same kind of low-info voters who were against the war but voted for Lieberman.
Either that, or its a cult of personality.  Just like her husband's.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton has no weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Sometimes I think Elizabeth should be one running.


by Ian Welsh on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:15:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm with you Matt (3.00 / 0)

This is a negative narrative building and attempting to defuse Iran is a way out. Iran is a lose-lose for Democrats that don't oppose it strongly. As Ian Welsh says, Democrats have to oppose war strongly from the start. If the war is successful they lose not matter whether they were for it or against it. But if the war is lost, then Democrats that didn't oppose it lose again. But those that opposed it from the beginning win in a lost war.

The point that Republicans win big over a won war is crucial. There's nothing that wins for a Democrat in that scenario. So you might as well go with your principles (if you have them) and oppose wars of aggression right from the start and strongly. I am, of course, talking only about aventurist wars of agression.


Jeff Wegerson - PrairieStateBlue
by wegerje on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:11:26 AM EST

Re: I'm with you Matt (none / 0)

Fine thinking!


Mickey
by jnardo on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:13:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

What I don't like about Hillary is that she's too political. She measures what she does based on how she think it might effect her chances of being President. That's the character flaw that bothers me. It's true that of all people who voted for that war, she was in the position to know what Bush was up to. Bill Clinton knew. I don't hold that against her. She's actually done a good job of being her own person.

But "neutralizing" or "defusing" her vote for the Iraq War is Rove-Think. I'd rather see her say, "I made a mistake. I'm sorry." and leave it at that. Lord knows, we need people who can admit to being wrong. It's a virtue. If she wants to lead the fight to keep Bush from doing it again in Iran, more power to her. What I'm afraid of is that she won't do that either, for the same reason...

I expect most of us understand why people followed Bush and Cheney back then. September 11th worked. It made us all insane. Who knew that our Administration was going to use how we felt after 911 to send us off on a war of conquest for oil? I feel good now about opposing this war from the start. But back then, I felt confused, like some kind of a traitor. I had no conviction that I was right. Maybe I was just an old liberal reflexly opposing a conservative. I didn't know. I kept stickers off of my car [well maybe one little flag on the bumper].

It was a National Failure, the Iraq War. What we now know is that the real National Failure was to elect George W. Bush and Richard Cheney to the White House in the first place. Hillary sure didn't do that! If she's a Presidential possibility, she needs to show us that she has the integrity to do the job. It's not about what she has done in the past, it's about what she can do in the future.

We've had enough of "last name" Presidents...


Mickey
by jnardo on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:12:46 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

She measures what she does based on how she think it might effect her chances of being President.

Is there someone running who DOESN'T do this?  Has anybody ever won the Presidency who didn't have this characteristic?  If so, please name that person.


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Probably Harry Truman and Warren G. Harding.  Probably Ulysses S. Grant.
Not anyone who is running now, though.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary like Reese W. in ELECTION (none / 0)

The only difference is Hillary would not give someone a blowjob to get ahead.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:36:27 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Nominating Hillary Clinton would be a huge mistake for Democrats because it would completely neutralize the Iraq War as an issue during the Presidential campaign.    

I mean, really, how will she respond when her Republican opponent (who will undoubtedly be pro-war) says over and over on the stump, "I saw the same intelligence Mrs. Clinton saw and I came to the same conclusion."  John Kerry had absolutely no answer for this during the 2004 campaign.

What's ironic is that all of the Democrats who voted for the Iraq War back in Oct. 2002 did so out of shameless political opportunism--they wanted David Broder and Howard Fineman to say they were "strong on national security"--yet that vote is now a huge drag on their electoral prospects.  


by Will Graham on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:38:08 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

This is what I have been saying. Hillary supporters act like Hillary is weaker on Iraq, but she is better than the others on other issues. Like what? Are Obama and others less committed to a single progressive issue other than the war>?


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:57:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

The Iraq war is a Republican was. They started it, misled the country, and completely mismanaged it. Why do we keep accepting responsibility and blame for something we had no control over. This is how they will be spinning it during the election, and we should take no part in helping them making that argument.
by PhillyGuy on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Disagree! (none / 0)

It'll be Clinton foreign policy ( a la Bill 1992-2000) v. someone like John McCain, who proposes to send even more troops to Iraq.  That'll provide plenty of contrast.

If you go with someone who's perceived as anti-war, you're just gonna get a replay of Nixon/McGovern 1972, or Bush/Kerry 2004, for that matter.

The polls show that the longer Hillary Clinton persists in her approach the more her support increases among Democratic voters.  That's because the broad base of the Party (1) likes this approach and (2) believes this approach will be most successful against the Republicans in 2008.


by francislholland on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:07:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disagree! (none / 0)

So if its anyone OTHER than Hillary or one of the other conservative Dems, we will lose?  Bull.  Any of our candidates, except Kucinich and Gravel, could beat any of their candidates.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disagree! (none / 0)

Then why have Democrats lost 5 out of the last 7 Presidential elections.  It's not as easy as you think it is.

"Progressives" always imagine that this is the election in which the country will come to its senses and swing to the left, suddenly agreeing with leftists more than it has in the past.  If Democratic identification has had a small uptick, the uptick for "leftist" has been even smaller.  

This isn't a post against the Democratic Party.  This is a post reminding us that Democrats win when we are as moderate as the country is, whatever thay happens to mean at any given time.  When we see the Presidential campaign as just another opportunity to try to push our candidates to the left, we often push them completely out of contention for the votes of the middle.


by francislholland on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 12:27:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

NEWS -- AND COMMENT FOR SENATOR CLINTON

NEWS ITEM -
Dixie Chicks Are Big Winners at Grammys

Dixie Chicks Are Big Winners at GrammysThe group won five awards, including song of the year for "Not Ready to Make Nice."

COMMENT -

Even the Dixie Chicks knew it was wrong to authorize Bush to invade Iraq. So, Hillary, your vote was not a mistake?

from Homer at www.altara.blogspot.com


by Homer on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:21:20 AM EST

Hillary had better be praying we don't attack (none / 0)

Iran - because then she and her triangulating are going to be facing a tough test - call BS on Bush, or pretend, again, she believes him and support the attacks.

And nice to see how her advisors paint Iraq as just another issue she can "be carried" past:

From NY Times article today:

These advisers say Mrs. Clinton's other advantages -- experience, debate skills, fund-raising muscle, a well-organized political operation, her popularity in the party (as well as her husband's) and her agenda -- will carry her past any second-guessing about her Iraq war vote.

Look at how they paint her concern about Iraq and her dreadful judgement. Clinton does not give a damn about these soldiers and their lost lives and limbs: they are just something for her to use to ride to her great, overdue victory to the White House.


by adigal on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:20:09 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

It's shameful that Hillary is even discussed on this website as possibly being worthy of support to represent the Democratic Party for the Presidency in 2008 -- she has nothing going for her except her having lived in the White House, and our Party has other candidates in the race who are superior to her in political ability, speaking ability, record on the issues, and (most important of all) wisdom. Barack Obama had the wisdom to recognize in 2002 that invading Iraq would be a disaster, and Hillary's health plan when her husband was President was a Rube Goldberg contraption which made her the laughingstock of the country. John Edwards has the wisdom to recognize that he goofed and lacked wisdom by voting in 2002 to authorize Bush to invade Iraq. Hillary is beyond hope, just an uninspiring hack, and the Democratic Party would shame itself to nominate her, when the competing field is so strong with Obama, Edwards, and possibly (if he runs) Gore. (I don't think Gore will enter unless the current front runners first damage each other a lot; and though he's the best on the issues and on proven wisdom, he's not as gifted a speaker as is Obama.) In a field like this, anyone who contributes to Hillary's primary campaign has got to be either an idiot or a corrupt person hoping to win favors from a President Hillary.

I'm not saying that I would vote for a Republican in the general election, just that the Democratic Party has some really worthy candidates seeking this nomination, and that Hillary is conspicuously not one of them.


by arg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:42:29 AM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

1.  ANY of the Democrats currently running would be better by several orders of magnitude than George W. Bush and have an IQ many times as high.

2.  Let's not help the right-wing noise machine by trashing our own candidates.  Legitimate criticism is one thing, but the term "hack" doesn't apply to any of the candidates.  They are all talented, thoughtful, dedicated individuals.

3.  Remember woulda-coulda-shoulda?  Hillary doesn't believe much in crying over spilled milk.  She's taken exactly the right stance going forward -- that she'd immediately pull our troops out of Iraq -- and carping over her vote on the war won't help solve the problem.  She was deceived by Bushco and I'm sure she regrets it, even if she won't say so publicly.

4.  Hillary is a lawyer and by nature cautious (wouldn't that be refreshing after "Bring 'em On, Bush?") which is why she won't take force off the table with Iran.  She's rightly concerned (as the first serious female contender for the office) that an American president can't unilaterally foreclose any options when dealing with a possible enemy.  Whether you agree with her or not, would you rather hear Faux News calling her a pacifist?


by dalloway on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:06:35 PM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

POint 3 is exactly Bush's talking point on why he doesn't bother looking back on his mistakes.


by Pravin on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:24:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

I think Obama may have just beaten Clinton to the punch on this one.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/ 2007/feb/11/obama_blows_away_60_minutes_ will_talk_to_syria_and_iran


by dwbh on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:17:25 PM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Edwards is also talking consistently about having a dialog with both Syria and Iran.  As far as I can tell, in terms of actions proposed, Edwards and Obama are pretty much identical on Iran.


http://www.actblue.com/page/asaslist
by asahopkins on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Just a point that connects the dots of some things said, quite rightly, above on the political opportunities of the long primary and the need to differentiate from the Republicans on Iraq and Iran.

The candidacy of Obama, successful or no, has already sent a clear and welcome message to the whole world, allies and enemies, that the US is not fundamentally hegemonistic and threatening to world peace and security; that the US wants to again become a good world citizen.

His campaign is big news worldwide for this reason and it has already helped arrest a long standing perception which harms us in the world.  Keep up the good work, Senator.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it is foolish to think H's support is deep (none / 0)

Let me recall my own experience.  In my local DP club, the were about 20 (out of 40-50 members that openly were hopeful that she would run last year.  I went on a person on person campaign and asked why they supported her because she was prowar.  The reaction was always the same: She is?  I would then send them links to speeches that she had made at aipac meetings.  Last month when her candidacy was mentioned in a meeting I could see only 5 (out of about 60 people applauding. There were as many noticable groans.


by syvanen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:54:11 PM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton is too political?  LOL

That's a good one.


by marycontrary on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:59:27 PM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

None of the people posting here for Hillary gives any sound reason for the prejudice favoring her over Obama or Edwards to represent our Party. Hillary is an Iraq War hawk way behind the U.S. public, who want withdrawal; she's stale old hat, especially because her views have always been unimaginative; she also lacks wisdom, which has been proven by her atrocious record on Iraq, and by her atrocious healthcare plan which she drew up for her husband, and which was a total cave-in to health maintenance organizations and no solution to the problems.


by arg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:58:10 PM EST

Edwards on Iran (none / 0)

John Edwards IS poorly positioned on Iran. In a speech he gave in Israel recently, he seemed to support threats of war against Iran, saying "ALL options should be on the table [original emphasis]."

A petition has been set up to ask him to clarify that he does not support threatening war:

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/involve d/edwards.html


by fenianhombre on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 06:02:23 PM EST

Re: How Clinton Could Defuse Her Weakness on Iraq (none / 0)

The failure of posters here to address how shameful it is for Democrats to prefer Hillary over Obama and Edwards is being ignored. Hillary is an unimaginative hack, an Iraq-War hawk, who is open to invading Iran, and her healthcarfe plan was a Rube Goldberg monstrosity geared to pleasind health maintenance organizations, which were big financial backers of the Clintons.

Hillary lacks Bill Clinton's speaking ability and charisma, and has nothing going for her except some fools who think they're Democrats.


by arg on Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 05:06:08 PM EST


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