The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges

As Chris has noted, Hillary Clinton is in a strong position relative to the other candidates.  He outlined five factors that could cause Clinton to lose the nomination.

  1. The rapid rise of one or more second tier candidates.
  2. Increased media focus on polls in early states.
  3. The rise of Obama.
  4. Real netroots and grassroots energy.
  5. Going negative

Basically, if another candidate can grow in strength and effectively ally himself with a grassroots/netroots/labor axis, and if a clear anti-Clinton narrative can emerge, Hillary is beatable.  Here's Chris on how such a narrative would have to develop:

Since her lead isn't going to just entirely dry up on its own via name recognition from most of her opponents, in order for the current polling situation to substantially change, there needs to be a well developed, anti-Clinton narrative that is convincing to the Democratic rank and file. Note that attacking her personality or character won't work, given the repeated right-wing assaults on this front over the past fifteen years. Also, "electability" probably won't work either, since the Clinton's are largely loved in the rank and file for actually winning. It is going to have to be substantive--ideological, activist, or issue based.

Over the past four days, I have seen a compelling anti-Clinton narrative jump back and forth from the blogs to New Hampshire primary voters to the television circuit of pundits.  It centers on Iraq, and has to do with her inability and unwillingness to admit a mistake on the war vote on Iraq.

Despite staking out a position in opposition to the war in Iraq, Hillary Clinton couldn't escape questions over her decision to give the president the power to send in the military.

"I want to know if right here and right now, once and for all, without nuance, can you say that the war authorization vote was a mistake?" one questioner asked.

That question was how one voter welcomed Clinton to New Hampshire. It was a zinger that put her on the hot seat.

"I've said and I will repeat, that knowing what I know now that I would never have voted for it," Clinton said.

But was that the answer he was looking for?

"Absolutely not. And I love what she's talking about with healthcare. I love what she's talking about with the war now and capping the troops. But until she says it was mistake, she's not gonna get my vote," the questioner replied.

I'm seeing this same theme pop upon Daily Kos quite frequently, and on many of the high traffic community blogs.  The clip of that questioner in New Hampshire was on Meet the Press, and commentary on the Sunday shows splashed Clinton aggressively with her waffling on Iraq.

There are several reasons this narrative is dangerous for Clinton.

It brands her badly. This argument pushes her to the right of the entire field, the party, and the country.  Every other candidate was either against the war or admitted that their support of the war was a mistake.  Since she is the front-runner, this means that there's a clear opportunity to bring her down.  Not only can any Democratic rival gain politically by criticizing her unapologetic stance, any Democratic official, any member of the progressive caucus, or any progressive group can gain by doing so.  She is hoping that her brand will be strong enough to retain the support of liberals, but this is a very big black mark.

It's a clear and good argument against her. Clinton's inability to admit she was wrong brings up a serious judgment and trust issue.  Not only did Hillary Clinton make the wrong choice in 2002, but she hasn't changed her mind.  That's either horrible judgment or its a political calculation.  Either way, the Democratic party's primary voting universe has lived through the last six years, and many of these voters are not sympathetic to Democrats who cannot be trusted on issues of key importance.  Her triangulation and evasion, and her claims that she really didn't vote for the war, are disrespectful to those who did vote against the war, and  an insult to those who had the courage to admit they were wrong.  

It could dominate the news cycle. Iraq and conflict in the Middle East is going to continue to be in the news cycle and the public debate through 2008.  Clinton can talk about how she'd end the war if she were President, but her refusal to admit her own complicity will creep into every news story and override that claim (which we cannot verify and have no reason to trust).  It's certainly going to be pushed into every story by opposition researchers, and others who have an interest in seeing the party move to the left.

It brings back memories of John Kerry:  Hillary Clinton is making the exact same argument that John Kerry made in 2004.  He said that he didn't really vote for the war, only for authorization.  Do Democrats really want to be apologists for a mumbler in 2008 during the general election the way we were in 2008?  Probably not.  

As Peter Daou would say, the triangle is closing, only this time it's primary voters taking the place of Democratic Party officials to push this into the media.  She is in a very vulnerable spot right now, and any number of groups could take her on and gain by doing so.  Moveon could put up a small ad buy in New Hampshire asking her to come clean on the war.  Progressive caucus members could begin to criticize her by name in an attempt to push the Senate to end the war.  New anti-Hillary 527s could emerge and begin ad buys.  Any number of progressive groups, like the Campaign for America's Future, could work to go after her.

The Iraq-themed anti-Hillary narrative is not character-based or personality-based, it is a substantive disagreement that most Democratic primary voters have with Hillary Clinton.  It doesn't reinforce right-wing frames; in fact it reinforces left-wing frames, by suggesting that she isn't doing enough to bring our involvement in Iraq to a close.  That's a new attack, and I'm not sure she's ready for it.  My guess is that she's going to respond by saying that she's ready for attacks and is will to hit back, or maybe that she's looking forward and not backwards.  Neither of these arguments will work, and the standard old DLC triangulation against the left, couched in terms of electability or strength on national security, are weak.

As the primary continues, progressives are going to continue stepping up.  Right now, it's only the blogs, the primary voters, and people like Maxine Waters who are expressing frustration.  But it's going to become incumbent upon progressive members of Congress to step up, criticize Clinton, and thereby claim credit for their antiwar vote.  Hillary Clinton's stance is a basic insult to the courage of those who showed the prudence to vote against the war, or those who changed their minds after being shown as dupes.  Her response so far, which is a mix of 'it's not my fault' and 'I didn't vote for the war' weaseling, is insufficient.  For instance, Ralph Nader, who is at this point a parasite that feeds off of lost progressive opportunities, is making noises about entering the race in 2008.  

The other criteria that Chris suggests above are not yet in place, though there is the possibility that they could snap into place.  

UPDATE: Here's her counter-strategy.

At the second house-party gathering of her second day of campaigning in this key primary state, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) insisted that she is the best candidate to win the White House back for her party in 2008. And, what's more, she said Republicans know it.

"I know what [former House Speaker Newt] Gingrich [R-Ga.] tells people privately, I know what [former House Majority Leader Tom] Delay [R-Texas] tells people privately, I know what Karl Rove tells people privately," she said. "I'm the one person they are most afraid of. Bill and I have beaten them before and we will again."

The remark drew loud cheers from the assembled crowd here at the home of Debora and Mike Pignatelli this afternoon.



Display:


Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

I've been listening to her in clips on NY1. Her position is odd. I don't get why she can't admit she made a mistake. What votes does she think she is cultivating by holding this position? The Bush-I-can't-make-mistake vote?


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:26:36 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

That's exactly the point.  She is repeating John Kerry's position.  In the end it will be her downfall.  It's the one thing people dislike about her.  She won't take a concrete position on anything.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:29:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But this downfall needs to happen... (none / 0)

  ...BEFORE the primary.

  If the Republicans nominate someone like Huckabee who's got relatively clean hands on Iraq, she's toast.


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But this downfall needs to happen... (3.00 / 1)

That is why it is incumbent upon Obama to beat her over the head with it, so to speak.  If he doesn't he'll only have himself to blame for losing the nomination.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But this downfall needs to happen... (3.00 / 1)

Along with Edwards... both of them, or one of the second tier need to hammer her on it.  I know she thinks she should be coronated, but screw that.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let Them Eat Triangles (none / 0)

She'll be lucky to avoid being led off to the political equivalent of the Place de la Greve.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:49:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kerry took 2 opposing positions (none / 0)

That's why Clinton refuses to be tied down.  Because ricocheting from one side to the other is bad politics.


by francislholland on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:08:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 3)

Read the posts at Kos on the issue.  Hillary is being advised (as was Edwards) that she can't say "I made a mistake."  The most she can say is the old Reaganesque "mistakes were made".  

When you think about it, this is precisely George Bush's problem that has landed us in this mess--the inability to genuinely learn from mistakes and make course corrections.

Pretending to be perfect (someone who doesn't make much less acknowledge) mistakes is setting yourself up for an impossible standard and, ultimately, failure.  

Furthermore, in a year in which voters are demanding authenticity (or a reasonable facsimile thereof), refusing to acknowledge a mistake is setting yourself up as a phoney, and that is just what the voters DON'T want.  She is being badly advised, as is every Dem who follows this course.


by Mimikatz on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:48:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 1)

How is she being badly advised?  Is she that stupid that she doesn't know?  Or is she just so full of herself that she thinks she can win the nomination anyway?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

she has a lot of money. she's up in the polls - although early- so it breeds a bit of "i got wiggle room" i suppose. My thing is - no you dont.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

How far will she outspend Obama by?  What position will Gore play?  If he isn't gonna run, will he call her out?  Helping Obama or one of the other candidates.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:18:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore can take his time (3.00 / 1)

  Al Gore is in a unique position -- he can raise money to compete with Hillary, and he can do it quickly. He doesn't have to worry about building name ID, and he remains extremely popular among Democrats. And as long as he doesn't officially declare anything, he can say what he wants, lurk around, and let "draft Gore" movements swell up.

  Then when Iraq blows up even more (or Iran, for that matter), Gore can crash the gates. Heck, if Hillary enables an Iran attack the way she enabled the Iraq attack, Gore would mop the floor with her.

  Having Al Gore in her rearview mirror might be a disincentive for Hillary to buy into an Iran war. That would be a good thing.  


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore can take his time (none / 0)

If HRC supports a war against Iran .. under this president .. she'll have flushed her political career down the crapper


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Obama appears to have the ability to raise quite a bot of money himself, so I am not so sure how much she will be able to out spend him.  All he has to do is convince 100,000 supporters to give him the full amount and he is good to go... easier said than done sure, but I am hoping that since he, like Edwards, is eschewing PAC and Lobbyist money for this election that people will give.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Money and Spending (none / 0)

There is also a declining value to the money any candidate spends.  Also, the quality of the spending counts.  Dean had plenty of money but somehow ran out at a crucial time.  Bush spent plenty of more money than his Democratic opponents but lost the Presidency twice.


by msstaley on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Running out the clock so to speak?


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:14:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not Admitting Mistakes, Standing Up To The Left (3.00 / 3)

I think Mimikatz is correct.  There is an unfortunate message that Hillay Clinton is reinforcing here.  She is carrying the "I do not admit mistakes" torch that George Bush carried for six long years.  Ouch.

But, does the general electorate want the NEXT President to also have this trait?  And, of course, a particularly relevant question is: do the Democratic voters in the primaries and caucuses want their next presidential candidate to have this trait? Hillary Clinton seems to be guessing that the answer is yes to both questions.  I think she is wrong.

There is every reason to believe, as Mimikatz has noted, that the voters want the next President to be more authentic, more truthful, more real.  They do not want triangulation or obfuscation.  I think one of HIllary Clinton's rivals can truly deflate the balloon of her popularity by being truthful, forthright, and running AGAINST SPIN itself.  With Hillary Clinton's seasoned stable of spinners (e.g. Wolfson), I just can't see her running against spin.

So far, I think Edwards has made an early decision to be more extemporaneous, open and honest in his campaign appearences, with very few filters, and little or no spin.  In his recent 30 minute appearance on the "Russert Meet the Press hot seat" (with truly withering questions), Edwards displayed his calm, down to earth, truthful, demeanor.  In short, he was very much himself.  This may serve Edwards well as a contrast to the more spinning, calculating, "eminence front" of Hillary Clinton.  Do the voters want an eminence front?

Finally, it is worth noting that Hillary Clinton might actually end up using the netroots as a foil to PROVE her centrism.  She and her advisers may honestly believe that she needs to stand up to the progressive left to improve her chances of winning the general election.    

So...if this battle over NOT apologizing for her war vote continues all the way into the primaries, and Hillary Clinton ends up the nominee, she may actually be the victor, standing upon the carcass of the netroots.  The netroots fought her, and she prevailed.  

She can then tell the general election voters:  see...I can stand up to those fuzzy, anti-war leftists!  I am a centrist.  You have nothing to fear from me.  


by Demo37 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:42:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Admitting Mistakes, Standing Up To The Lef (none / 0)

So...if this battle over NOT apologizing for her war vote continues all the way into the primaries, and Hillary Clinton ends up the nominee, she may actually be the victor, standing upon the carcass of the netroots.  The netroots fought her, and she prevailed.  

She can then tell the general election voters:  see...I can stand up to those fuzzy, anti-war leftists!  I am a centrist.  You have nothing to fear from me.  

This is already happening.  All of Hillary's resistance to the anti-war Left increases her credibility with the middle and makes her seem less radical to the Right, particularly when it's clear that people are just trying to bully her.  The Republicans will call Hillary a Leftist, but it won't stick because the Left is so notoriously opposed to her.  

The Republicans tried to bully Hillary (and Bill) and Hillary's popularity increased while Republicans' popularity decreased, and then Hillary became the first female senator from the state of New York and first First Lady to win elective office.


by francislholland on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:26:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Hillary is going to be in for a tough ride.  Personally, I find a lot of irony in her "Let the Conversation Begin" banner thingy.  That is what will be her downfall.  As she travels the country, more people will ask her the exact same question that the gentleman in NH did.  Will the HRC campaign be able to brand all those people are fringe lunatics?  Doubt it.  Most of them will be mainstream Dems.  Will Obama be willing to exploit it?  If he is willing, the nomination is there for his taking.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:28:29 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

There is of course the impact on the race if Gore announces that he is not only not running, but that he is endorsing Edwards or Richardson.

I'd say that it would be unlikely for someone on Gore's position to endorse early ... except that he did endorse Dean early in the previous race.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:36:16 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Or Obama, who's been consistently (if for my liking, too quietly) anti-war from the start. Also, endorsing someone else early is the one way Gore can absolutely shut the door on those of us turning our lonely eyes to him, if that'sreally what he wants to do.


by BlueinColorado on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

I was thinking more in terms of the climate crisis. Its important to get out of this war, but over the long term there will be a series of wars on the same lines if we remain dedicated to the proposition of "after us the flood".


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

  I can see Obama hanging around and staying reasonably close to Hillary all year, slowly gaining ground as he ups his name recognition and Hillary's thousand stances on the war eat away at her credibility on the issue. But Obama will likely continue to have a financial disadvantage, and have to deal with a ruthless media driving up his negatives. Not to mention a lot of closet racism, even among Democrats.

  And then, in the fall, Al Gore declares and makes Obama his running mate.

  Hillary does not recover from THAT.


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

I actually think Obama can overcome those obstacles. He's good on camera, better than any Democrat out there and arguably the best in the '08 field. And he knows how to punch back (cf John Howard-- I just wish he would do that on a larger level and not just when it's personal). He's already drawing some real crackpots (they can't get enough of Barack HUSSEIN Obama) out of the woodwork, and that could drive a lot of suburban-type moderates toward him.

Gore is still my first choice, but Obama has moved way up in my estimation.  


by BlueinColorado on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That response to John Howard... (none / 0)

 ...was a HUGE legitimizer of him in my book.

 He punched back FAST, and he punched back HARD.

 If he makes a habit of this, he's going to win.

 Now, if he had DLC advisors, it would have been: "With all due respect to the great world statesman John Howard, I do wish that he would refrain from opining about internal American presidential races, as much merit as his well-taken points might be, which I will heed in the future, should it please this accomplished leader. Please don't hurt me."

 


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That response to John Howard... (none / 0)

I think his advisors have told him that he can't soft peddle .. after all .. if he is going to win .. he has to set himself apart from HRC .. and he sure as hell won't win by running to HRC's right


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:09:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That response to John Howard... (none / 0)

Great post re: the DLC and what they'd say.  I am undecided on this race but my instinct has always been Hillary.  But I want some liberalism in our next prez.  It doesn't help that I hate Terry McAuliffe and Rahm Emanuel as those two are Clintonistas.

Obama's ballsy attack back on Howard was very impressive and it's the stuff i long to see.

I'm torn.  And I suspect I will be for a while, unless Gore gets in.  If he does, I am soooo his.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That response to John Howard... (none / 0)

Okay, I've been holding off on speaking the deplorable L-word, but your mention of Emmanuel set me off. Joe Klein is making an "educated guess" that Lieberman is getting ready to jump the aisle, and if the Clintons didn't save his ass, they sure as shit helped.

But if HRC wants to stop people talking about her Iraq vote, she should get out in front of the coming Iran debacle. Hell, she and every last one of them ought to be doing that no matter what the '08 futures market says.


by BlueinColorado on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That response to John Howard... (none / 0)

Yeah, I think a vast majority of the Netroots will be.  I wonder who would lose more supporters if Gore got in in the netroots... Obama or Edwards or Clark?


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

I doubt Gore is running-- I could easily see Gore endorsing Hillary..


by falcon4e on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Why would Gore endorse Hillary?  Why would Gore just trash all the goodwill he has built up?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore endorse Hillary? (2.50 / 2)

From Dean to the DLC? Maybe in the general, if she wins the primary, but not before then. I don't think there's a lot of enthusiasm for Chappaqua in Carthage.


by BlueinColorado on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)


  Gore will NOT endorse Hillary in the primary. No way.

 


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Hillary hates Gore and visa versa.


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

He's already said he won't do public financing for the primaries, so like HRC and Edwards, he is quite sure eh will be able to raise significant amounts of money.  He WON'T be at a financial disadvantage at all.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

I am so frustrated with Clinton - and her seeming inability to apologize reminds me of our current resident in the White House.

I want a first person pronoun apology - "I was wrong." Because until I hear that, I am going to think that she does not realize that she was either duped or that she made a cold calculating decision that a vote against the war would hurt her in her run for the president. And I don't like people using our soldiers lives as chips in their high stakes poker game. And I think that is what she is doing, just like Bush.


by adigal on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:39:35 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Anti-Hillary is the new Dean.


by Bob Brigham on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:39:38 PM EST

No (none / 0)

Anti-Hillary is the new intelligent position.


by ElitistJohn on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

The more candidates in the field the more it helps Hillary. Obama will have to pull off something amazing to win the nomination and win the general.


by bsavage on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:55:37 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

  A lot of Hillary's support comes from African-Americans.

  The media's race-tinged attacks on Obama, though, could peel off some of that support (even if the attacks don't come from the Hillary camp). It would certainly drive many African-Americans to take a closer look at Barack and try to find out why he worries the white establishment so much. And they might like what they see and stick around...


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:12:55 PM EST

All well and good except there isn't a large (none / 0)

African-American population in either Iowa or NH and Richardson is next door in Nevada which would lock up the Hispanic vote there.

The African American vote doesn't kick in until South Carolina and Edwards was born there.

This field of candidates has 11 months to chip away at her "lead";every time one American gets up and asks a "tough" question like the gentleman from NH it emboldens the next person to ask a similar question

Drip, drip, drip

If the news out of Iraq continues badly (and is there any reason to suppose it won't?) the issue will continue to haunt her.


by merbex on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All well and good except there isn't a large (none / 0)

Yeah but people forget one of Obama's biggest pluses is he appeals across ethnic lines, He won in Illinois in the primary by appealing to White Suburbanites as much as he did any other group....  He is Multi-racial and frankly as white as he is black (given the white mother and black father) but of course people go by physical appearance in this case.  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One thing I DO NOT get... (3.00 / 1)

 ...is how supporting (or being weaselly about opposing) the Iraq war makes anyone appear "strong" on national security.

 The Iraq war has been a disaster for our national security. Osama bin Laden is still merrily at large, new terrorists are being spawned daily, our international reputation is in tatters, our armed forces are decimated, and we're more dependent than ever on oil, with a greater-than-ever likelihood of access to the resource being shut off.

 Anyone who buys the line that we need to support the Iraq war because it makes us look "strong" on national security has been taking too many hits on the crack pipe. Why do the Democrats continue to retain such clueless advisors?  

 


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:23:44 PM EST

Don't Forget (none / 0)

The expanding of the Iranian sphere of influence by removing its regional counterweight. And then there are the myriad of human rights abuses rising out of the campaign which have not only undermined our standing among the international community, whose support we'd need for success in virtually ANY substantive foreign policy initiative; the sacrifice of American values & that whole Western tradition 'rule of law' shpiel, which are retroactively justified serveral fold by the overwhelming sucess we've experienced in democratizing the region. And look at how our Iraqi entanglement has facilitated our effective contribution to resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict. Oh, and that other war... Where was it? It was the popular war, against the totalitarian regime with substantiated links to Al-Qaeda? Oh, yea! Afghanistan. Going swimming thanks to ample support won through the Iraq campaign.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/200 7/02/06/afghanistan/
by anku on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One thing I DO NOT get... (none / 0)

look at a majority of the advisors on TV .. they are all DLC'ers .. how often do you see David Sirota on Leslie Blitzer's show?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 1)

All Clinton needs to do is say three words. "I was wrong." Just those three words and she's unbeatable.

Sure, the netroots and the left wing of the party still won't like her, but they'll be willing to support her if she wins the nomination.

The right-wing will try to attack on this angle, but given the level of support for the war it should be easy to say that being wrong on the war was not a unique position.

Edwards can carry on with his populism and Obama with his narrative, but those 3 words, had she but the courage to take the plunge, would immediately sink their hopes.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:27:54 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

"All Clinton needs to do is say three words. "I was wrong." Just those three words and she's unbeatable."

Nope...because she was still wrong...and other candidates were right.

And because personality and other issues are just as important.


by BrionLutz on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

"Nope...because she was still wrong...and other candidates were right"

Other than Kucinich, which of the announced Democratic candidates were right on Iraq in 2002/2003?

(Don't take this comment as being supportive of Hillary - she's my least favorite of the viable candidates - but I seem to recall pretty much all of them being wrong.)


by uncle fister on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

"Other than Kucinich, which of the announced Democratic candidates were right on Iraq in 2002/2003?"

Obama...the only candidate to oppose the war and then win two elections based on his opposition to the Iraq war.

Which is why all the posturing over how Biden, Clinton, Dodd and Edwards explain their vote for the Iraq war is so phony.

I think most voted for the war as a political calculation. They didn't want to be on the wrong side as in Iraq War I.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:08:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Good enough. Of course, Obama was not in the Senate at the time, and so was not in the position where he was forced to put up or shut up.


by uncle fister on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:33:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

"Of course, Obama was not in the Senate at the time"

Obama took an even greater risk than a sitting Senator by opposing the Iraq war since he was running for the Senate.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:54:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

It may already be too late for her to tack back on course.  Prevarication, thy name is Hillary.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

I will never vote for hilery.


by idahojim on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iraq is a plus...but not a minus. (none / 0)

"But until she says it was mistake, she's not gonna get my vote," the questioner replied."

We know that's bogus, especially going forward to general election.  Even in the primary, the sentiment is suspect since all the candidates other than Obama voted for the Iraq war. If Iraq vote is really that key, Obama would be the only candidate they could vote for but we see the voters making rationalizations to get around that fact.

Clinton's giving an honest answer...had any of them known the extent of Bush Jr admin. deception, they would not have voted for it.

With all the candidates being liberal and similar on the issues, the choice is going to become very personal. Who does the voter like the most.


by BrionLutz on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:39:33 PM EST

Richardson? (none / 0)

There are more than 3 candidates.


by anku on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson? (none / 0)

"There are more than 3 candidates."

Not really.


by BrionLutz on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson? (none / 0)

Yes but there are only three candidates who appear legit right now: HRC, Obama, and Edwards. All of the others would have to pull off something pretty amazing to have a shot.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:26:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Wasn't Arguing Gore Had Won (none / 0)

Yes, there are currently 3 front runners about a year before the first primary. This doesn't mean that there aren't viable candidates outside of Obama and Edwards who can garner support from people currently biased in favor of Hillary. Richardson and Clark are prime examples of candidates with the foreign policy credentials, and clean hands on Iraq, who could make a play for some of her support and not be accused of deluding themselves. I must make the obligatory 'Dean was an asterisk at this point' refrain, and also drop Kerry's name, but the point that I was trying to make was that there are other candidates who, even if they may not currently seem capable of stopping Hillary, have the capacity to leech significant amounts of her support simply through strength on Iraq, undercutting her claim to being the only viable GE candidate, and demonstrating some capacity to govern. I don't believe viable, declared candidates should be discounted because the aren't polling in the stratosphere yet. Yes, there are only 3 front runners at this phase, but if we are going to discuss the dynamics of the primary season, we shouldn't be marking people as 'also-ran's, yet.


by anku on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iraq is a plus...but not a minus. (none / 0)

"Clinton's giving an honest answer...had any of them known the extent of Bush Jr admin. deception, they would not have voted for it."

This is crap. I knew Bush and his henchmen were lying, I noticed the way they kept shifting their arguments, I was unconvinced by Powell's UN presentation - and I have absolutely no connection whatsoever to the power structure in DC or to the security / intelligence community there.

How is it that I could figure it out and none of them could? Frankly, I'm not sure that "I was wrong" is even good enough for me, because getting it right at the time really wasn't all that hard, or at least not as hard as Clinton wants to make it out to be. It reflects extremely badly on her (and everyone else who voted for the war) judgment.


by uncle fister on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So the natural followup... (3.00 / 2)

 "Given that the Bush administration deceived and misled you into supporting this Iraq disaster, are you willing to stand up to him now that he's trying to pull the same crap on Iran?"

 That's why it's critical to get her to concede that she made a mistake not just in trusting Bush, but in signing on to the concept of the war, not just its execution. Because if Hillary follows merrily along while Bush/Cheney saber-rattle on Iran, not only is her judgement deeply suspect, but so are her integrity and her competence.

 And yes, Obama needs to be asked the same question too.


by Master Jack on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:46:21 PM EST

Re: So the natural followup... (2.00 / 1)

Why the hell did Anku give you a 2?  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What's Wrong With a 2 (2.00 / 1)

?


by anku on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's Wrong With a 2 (none / 0)

Anything less than a 3 is considered a criticism.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for Flling Me In (none / 0)


by anku on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 2)

It would be better if the candidates could win on their own merits, by being more popular than her because of positive messages or connecting with voters.  Since that is not the case (Hillary has massive leads everywhere) I guess the demonizing anti-Hillary stuff is the constant theme, basically "going negative."  

 Pretty sad Rove-like tactics, IMHO.

 For instance, Edwards not only voted for the war but CO-SPONSORED it.  His voting record was one of the most conservative in the Senate.    Now all he needs to do is "talk" about poverty and health care, says "I am sorry" (which appears half-hearted political opportunism) and he gets a mulligan and has a big fan club here?   He CO-SPONSORED the war authorization, for crying out loud.  

 You can only make hey with an issue for a limited time.  If you constantly harp on something it will look petty to the rank and file, look like bashing for bashing's sake.  How many times can one person write "She doesn't get it on Iraq.  She does not want to apologize, she sucks" and discuss the same thing ad nauseum?  

         


by georgep on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:57:42 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

So what plans does Hillary have to eliminate poverty in this country or to bring universal health care to Americans?


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

The point is that she is not trusted.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:56:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 0)

This bears repeating:  She outpolls Obama usually 2 to 1 and Edwards at least 3 to 1, sometimes 6 to 1.  Both of those guys are known.  Edwards has a very high rate of recognition, and Obama had puffpieces followed by puffpieces in the media, clearly introducing himself to the American people.  If you look at the polls, they can't make a dent, are obviously trusted by less Democrats than HRC.   Just the simple truth.  

Going all negative "24/7" to bludgeon the frontrunner makes some here look vindictive, petty, and frankly, jealous of her "advantage."  Wouldn't it be great if Edwards or Obama made some speeches and policy proposals and wowed the people to the point where they "connected" with enough to gain the candidacy?  But, no such luck.  Most people are ho-hum about them.  Even though they trail behind, even that support appears soft for the most part.  

If she weathers this "storm"  (well, IMO it is more a tempest in a teapot) and the polls don't move appreciably in Obama's or Edward's favor, then what?  Find more to bludgeon her with?   A bit sad for supposed Democrats, don't you think?   The irony is that her voting record in the Senate is more liberal than Edwards (whose is quite conservative, actually) and Obama's.  But then, one would never know listening to you guys, where she is actually the anti-christ and devil-incarnate rolled into one person.   What a crock.  


by georgep on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:14:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly, but the netroots crew doesn't get that (3.00 / 0)

"It would be better if the candidates could win on their own merits, by being more popular than her because of positive messages or connecting with voters."

You would think they would have learned the lesson via the Lamont/Lieberman race, that going negative against the opponent doesn't cut it and is a natural regulator. In 2004 Bush, according to the PEW survey, had the highest percentage of voters enthusiastically supporting him than any candidate since Reagan in '84. Our flaw was not identifying someone who could win voters on his own, as opposed to masochistically slamming an established incumbent who had a robust base of support.

Now here we go again. Lamont was always a scrub so I could understand the argument that the only option was to bash Lieberman. But in this case you've got considerable positives attached to Obama and Edwards, etc.

Newsflash: Hillary's position and history on Iraq is already well known. You're not going to dent her there. Hillary will only fail if someone else is viewed as superior. Once in a while we might try to win the category of "voting for candidate" as opposed to "voting against that @#)&% bastard."


by Gary Kilbride on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay (none / 0)

Edwards and Obama have both taken leadership positions--on Iraq--far earlier than HRC has, Edwards has been talking about two Americas for more than five years. Obama has charisma or whatever you want to call that indefinable thing that makes people good on TeeVee. Edwards has some of that too. Gore, I believe, has learned to work with what he's got.

Republicans are always going to be more enthused about their candidates than Democrats, they project perfection into them, we demand perfection from our own. And specifically in '04, more than half of Bush's voters thought Saddam planned and ordered 9/11.

As for not being able to "dent" Hillary and her position(s) being well known: I hate to have to be the one to tell you, most of her support comes from nostalgia for her husband, as she herself acknowledged today: "Bill and I have beaten them before and we will again."

Let's leave Iraq aside for the moment: What's HRC's issue? Where has she taken the lead in the Senate? Sorry, I'm not gonna get real excited about the Clinton-Lieberman campaign against naughty video games.

If sneering condescension about "the netroots crew" who should have learned lessons about taking a stand on principle is the best HRC's people have to offer, she's really doomed.


by BlueinColorado on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (2.00 / 1)

" hate to have to be the one to tell you, most of her support comes from nostalgia for her husband, as she herself acknowledged today: "Bill and I have beaten them before and we will again."

Of course.  Nostalgia for her husband. What else could it be?   I hate to be the one to tell you, but if that were true you haters are in for an awakening, as BC has not started campaigning  for his wife yet.  Wait until that starts.  

Personally I believe that the BC thing has not been an issue, yet.  That is, until he gets busy campaigning, then it will add to her appeal.    


by georgep on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hater? (3.00 / 1)

Of course, I'm not falling all over her cautious triangulation, and I'm ignoring her heroic record of leadership in the Senate, the bold stands! the intitiatives! all the risks she's taken to stand on principle!

"Of course.  Nostalgia for her husband. What else could it be? "
You tell me.

Look, she's a middling centrist, not much better or worse than Biden,  Schumer, Feinstein or for that matter Reid. I don't hate her at all, though the hysteria of your response suggests I struck a nerve. What's her big issue been in the Senate? When has she stuck her neck out for anything important.

And BC was campaigning for her when he went to Connecticut for Lieberman, when he soft-pedaled his critiques of the Bush administration, everything he's done since he left office has been with one eye on her campaign. It's his vindication and ultimate victory if she wins after eight years of Bush. Of course BC campaigning will add to her appeal. He's the only thing that separates her from the pack.


by BlueinColorado on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hater? (3.00 / 0)

Seriously, you write:

"I hate to have to be the one to tell you, most of her support comes from nostalgia for her husband, as she herself acknowledged today: "Bill and I have beaten them before and we will again."

That meme has been debunked in a very thoughtful posting by Chris Bowers.  There are many factors in play here.  Her popularity is real, her appeal is real.  BC adds to that, no doubt.  But to claim that it is all nostalgia is too simple an approach to take.   I think some here are prone to hysteria, or what would you call the EXACT SAME issue ("Hillary did not apologize explicitly for her Iraq vote, the beotch") discussed over and over in 3 diaries per day?    


by georgep on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hater? (none / 0)

You called me a hater. That was all I was repsonding to. I can't speak to diaries or postings I didnt' write.

As to the rest, do you think she would be the Democatic front-runner if her name were Smith, Jones, or Rodham?


by BlueinColorado on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:21:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (none / 0)

Yes, Bill campaigning for his wife is going to have an impact when it starts. That being said, do you really think that when he comes out primary voters are going to say "Oh, she's THAT Hillary Clinton." She will get a bump when does come out, but she is already enjoying the fruit of his popularity and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (none / 0)

Sure.  But all the talk is about Hillary at this point.  At some point people will be reminded more clearly that we will also be getting Bill Clinton into the White House to craft policy.  I agree that some have it in the back of their minds that he is part of this, but once he hits the campaigns and speaks to supporters it will become clear that he is going to be a huge part of the potential presidency.   Some may not like that, don't care for him.  However, that is not the case with a vast majority of Democrats, he is the most popular politician in America today, by far.  


by georgep on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Pro-Hillary Argument (On iraq)? (none / 0)

Can Hillary use her campaign to redirect the criticism aimed at her at the Bush Administration? Likely not, but there could be a situation where in she does not entirely repudiate her vote, but explains her rational, and qualifies it in such a way that it allows her to remain palatable to a large enough swath of primary voters, managing a few solid, early victories.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archive s/012391.php


by anku on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:01:53 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 1)

NBC's Andrea Mitchell was with the Clinton campaign today, and she got to talk with Clinton on Iraq. The focus of tonight's piece on NBC Nightly News was Clinton and her Iraq position.

There certainly is a "Iraq is a problem for Hillary" narrative in the MSM right now.


by Newsie8200 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:04:49 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Of course it is a problem ... why didn't she see what Obama, Feingold, Gore and Webb did?  What makes me want to trust her judgment more than I would trust the four I just named?

For the record: I dearly wanted Feingold to run but am uncommitted now as a result.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I believe that soon we will (none / 0)

see a comprehensive time line of Hillary's Iraq related comments from just before the vote to her current parsings.  This will be a major resource to bludgeon Hillary on Iraq.  Even if she feels that she wasn't wrong to give Bush the authority to invade Iraq and that Bush misused that authority, a time line with her comments will show where she stood soon after the invasion and occupation.  Given her recent comments saying that she didn't vote for this preemptive war it will be interesting to see her comments after her vote was abused by Bush and she talked about her outrage over the invasion of Iraq and the taking of resources away from Afghanistan and the search for bin Laden......  right?  I mean she said something about that right after the invasion didn't she?  Anyone?


by msstaley on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:08:10 PM EST

Re: I believe that soon we will (none / 0)

I think TPM or someone else has talked about that.  I haven't had time to check it out, but the implication seems to be that she might be in deep crap.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HRC: Floor Speech for Iraq AUMF (none / 0)

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.
...
Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/ electioncentral/2007/feb/11/flashback_he res_hillarys_full_speech_on_eve_of_war_v ote


by anku on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:37:04 PM EST

Hillary Speech = Irrelevent (none / 0)

Given what her speech says then obviously she really criticized Bush after the invasion, right?  She must have really been upset about this preemptive war and lambasted Bush, right?  She must have went after him for diverting troops and money away from Afghanistan and the search for bin Laden, right?  I look forward to the unearthing of Hillary's outrage about what Bush did right after the invasion given her floor speech there has to have been some, right????


by msstaley on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:48:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Well, from the look of today's WaPo Obama has come out strongly on exactly this theme with Hillary and whacked John Howard (he sooooo deserved that one) nicely without batting on eye.

How 'bout that?  Told you his campaign hadn't started yet.  I reckon he's going to get every point Hillary loses.  She started early, stumbled and now she's wrong-footed on Obama's best issue.  Do you remember what he said when a reporter told him she had declared?  "This will be fun."

Well, I'm enjoying it so far.

PS John Howard is up for election this year and the Labour party is howling over his comments, makes him look pretty silly.  Cheers and good on 'ya from Down Under, Senator.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:03:38 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

I think the inability to repudiate her vote or admit to being wrong has two other possible things.
  1.  It evokes the problem of Bush and his inability to accept when he was wrong.  This need to be right and never wrong is a character flaw.
  2.  when she is asked about Iraq she immediately goes on the defensive and goes right to the Bush Lied to me mantra.  It is somewhat glaring in that it sounds more like pouting than anything else.  Terry Mcfluff has the same problem.  He immediately goes all defensive for her and starts a Bush retoric.
It is all well and good to bash Bush but, eventually you are going to have to say something more substantive and quit blaming - another Bush trait. It's the other guy's fault.
by vwcat on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:47:00 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

It's almost too late for her to recant now, she's triangulated herself into a corner.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 08:55:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 1)

If Hillary does not win the nom, mark my words, it will be all because of shitty advice from Terry McAuliffe.

Terry and Bill, with their "brilliant" political minds, are, sadly, stuck in the 90s mentality.  So is Carville.

The 90s shit won't do now.  It won't do.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Have you seen McCain's numbers? The more he pounds for the war, the less people like him.

I think Hillary may find herself facing a similar problem. People DO NOT LIKE THIS WAR. If she doesn't recognize that soon, her support could evaporate as dramatically as his has.


by Victor Laszlo on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: your update (none / 0)

That quote you highlight in your update brings up another factor/card that will play in HRC's favor: I suspect that if pressed to select which of the candidates is just flat-out the toughest emotionally and psychologically, most journalists and even most voters would probably choose HRC.

The video of her exchange with Roger Tilton shows her demonstrating a feistiness and forcefulness that we haven't yet seen from either Edwards or Obama.


by blueflorida on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:04:43 PM EST

Re: your update (none / 0)

you want feistiness?

http://www.johnedwards.com/media/video/d nc-meeting/


by DrFrankLives on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:50:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If Hillary is the nominee... (none / 0)

It'd be very hard for me not to vote green.

I live in Virginia, where Hillary won't win anyway. I know I like the progressive ethic of always voting for the Democrat... but Jesus. It'd be really hard.


Progress is Personal | PCCC
by msnook on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 10:42:26 PM EST

Re: If Hillary is the nominee... (none / 0)

Don't give up on Virginia!
I think we can make it blue this time around....
by Victor Laszlo on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:17:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 1)

With so much Hillary bashing and hatred, one would think this is a Republican blog.


by PhillyGuy on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:59:50 PM EST

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (3.00 / 2)

Yet it isn't, is it?  Suggest anything to you?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:12:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The anti-Hillary Iraq Narrative Emerges (none / 0)

Ha!


by Matt Stoller on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:32:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Join w/the Republicans? (none / 0)

Richard Cohen of the Washington Post takes the same approach that you're taking, in a Washington Post piece today.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/02/12/AR2007021201062. html

If joining with the Republican neoconservatives who started the war in the first place is your gig, then I guess maybe you're onto something.

The only problem is that Democratic voters might decide that they don't like this crummy narrative any more when it comes from "progressives" than they like it when it comes from Richard Cohen and the neo-conservative Republicans.

Oh, and check out Robert Novak today.  He, too, has suddenly become an Edwards fan.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/02/11/AR2007021101168. html?nav=hcmodule

What happens if the netroots joins with Republicans in this approach and they still fail to take Clinton out?  What if Clinton successfully characterizes this as a battle of Right and Left-wing extremists against the common sense middle, where most of America lies?

The Iraq war is going to end when Clinton is elected.  But there are a lot of other progessive issues on which the netroots are going to want a hearing, like approaches to national health care.  This might not be the time to burn all bridges to the Clinton Camp.


by francislholland on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:06:01 AM EST


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