The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalism

[Cross-posted at ProgressiveHistorians, Daily Kos, My Left Wing, and MyDD. Many thanks to Elle, who clarified my thinking on this subject.]


(Photo (far left): LaGuardia Community College)




Don't worry, I'll get to the problem later.  But first off, I've been trying to figure out where John Edwards' new fiery populism fits in historical context.  For those of you who don't know by now (and I'm betting everyone on this site does know), Edwards is running as a crusader against poverty, a syndrome whose separation from mainstream Americans' lives he refers to as the "Two Americas":


The government released new poverty statistics this week.  The number of Americans living in poverty rose again last year.  Thirteen million children -- nearly one in every five -- lives in poverty.  Close to 25 percent of all African Americans live in poverty.  Twenty-three percent of the population in New Orleans lives in poverty.  Those are chilling numbers.  Because of Katrina, we have now seen many of the faces behind those numbers. 


Poverty exists everywhere in America.  It is in Detroit and El Paso.  It is in Omaha, Nebraska and Stockton, California.  It is in rural towns like Chillicothe, Ohio and Pine Bluff, Arkansas.  Nearly half of the children in Detroit, Atlanta and Long Beach, California live in poverty.  It doesn't have to be this way.  We can begin embracing policies that offer opportunity, reward responsibility, and assume the dignity of each American. 


There are immediate needs in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, and the first priority is meeting those, but after that, we need to think about the American community, about the one America we think we are, the one we talk about. We need people to feel more than sympathy with the victims, we need them to feel empathy with our national community that includes the poor.  We have missed opportunities to make certain that all Americans would be more than huddled masses.  We have been too slow to act in the face in the misery of our brothers and sisters.  This is an ugly and horrifying wake-up call to America.  Let us pray we answer this call. Now is the time to act.


But from what historical tradition does Edwards' rhetoric stem?

Generally speaking, there are two types of poverty advocacy in American political history -- agrarian radicalism and urban populism.  The two movements are linked, but subtly different, with two very different historical pedigrees.


Agrarian radicalism sounds like this:


Our country finds itself confronted by conditions for which there is no precedent in the history of the world; our annual agricultural productions amount to billions of dollars in value, which must, within a few weeks or months, be exchanged for billions of dollars' worth of commodities consumed in their production; the existing currency supply is wholly inadequate to make this exchange; the results are falling prices, the formation of combines and rings, the impoverishment of the producing class. We pledge ourselves that if given power we will labor to correct these evils by wise and reasonable legislation, in accordance with the terms of our platform.


We believe that the power of government-in other words, of the people-should be expanded (as in the case of the postal service) as rapidly and as far as the good sense of an intelligent people and the teachings of experience shall justify, to the end that oppression, injustice, and poverty shall eventually cease in the land.


That's Ignatius Donnelly, the colorful Minnesota co-founder of the Populist Party, propounding the new party's 1890 Omaha Platform.  The language is fulsome and pregnant with meaning -- there's nothing pedestrian about a line like "We have witnessed for more than a quarter of a century the struggles of the two great political parties for power and plunder, while grievous wrongs have been inflicted upon the suffering people."  In addition, Donnelly speaks directly to the struggle between urban capitalists and rural farmers.  The implications of not only class but rural/urban warfare could not be more clear.


On the other hand, in the realm of urban populism, we have things like this:


The government of New York City, as LaGuardia has proved to all of us, is not the personal property of ANY MAYOR, and certainly NOT the property of any gang of tin-horn politicians selling city services for votes or money  It is YOUR Government.  It belongs to you.  It is there to serve YOU--not any District Leader.


When a mother wants to bring her baby to a health station TODAY she doesn't have to "know" any one or "see" any one.  And that goes straight down the line, in every department under the Mayor.


Think back a bit.  Think back to Tammany days, and ask yourself whether you like Tammany service or HUMANIZED SERVICE.


It comes back to


THE SAME OLD ISSUE

Good Government or Bad

LaGUARDIA OR TAMMANY


That's part of a campaign article in favor of Fiorello LaGuardia, the legendary populist mayor of New York city from 1933-1945.  Notice the stark difference in rhetoric from Donnelly's agrarian radical document: the language is much more down-to-earth and pedestrian; the focus is on essential services and good government, not the ridding of evildoers from the halls of power.


Why this distinction between urban and rural populism?  Perhaps when you can walk by City Hall or the state capitol building, it's easier to think of politicians as just another group of very ordinary people.  When you're out in the boonies, government seems as far away as a fairy tale, subject to great climactic struggles between kinghts and demons.


In any case, which group best represents that thought and rhetoric of John Edwards?  In an elegant essay, Elle argues that Edwards is an urban populist like LaGuardia.  For evidence, she draws on this piece Edwards distributed via e-mail a year-and-a-half ago, in which Edwards urges us to follow the example of another urban populist, Franklin Delano Roosevelt:


Seventy-five years ago, our government was led by a President who actually succeeded in navigating America through a disaster. Faced with the Great Depression, Franklin Roosevelt saw that relief requires more than food and shelter; it requires the dignity that comes from a job at a decent wage. And he saw something else: as Allida Black put it at a forum here last week, we have to "build to last."


Many of our children still go to schools that the WPA constructed; many of our homes are lighted because of dams that the PWA built; many of our families still hike on trails that his CCC blazed. That's why trailer parks are not the answer.


In fact, if we know anything from a half century of urban development, it is that concentrating poor people close to each other and away from jobs is a lousy idea. If the Great Depression brought forth Hoovervilles, these trailer towns may someday be known as Bushvilles.


We can do better.


More evidence for Edwards' urban populism can be adduced from the speech I quoted above the flip, as well as from his use of New Orleans and Katrina as a centerpiece of his campaign -- he even announced for President there:


New Orleans, in so many ways, shows the two Americas that I have talked about in the past and something that I feel very personally. And it also exemplifies something that I've learned since the last election, which is that it's great to see a problem and to understand it. It's more important to actually take action and do something about it.


And I think that's why I'm in New Orleans, is to show what's possible when we as Americans, instead of staying home and complaining about somebody else not doing what they're supposed to, we actually take responsibility and we take action.


All based around city-dwelling and the attendant injustices thereof.


This isn't a simply drawn issue; Donnelly discusses the plight of urban labor in the Omaha Platform, and Edwards goes out of his way to talk about rural poverty in this July 2006 interview:


It is important not to overlook rural poverty, which is particularly prevalent in the South. Eighty-two percent of the poorest rural counties in America are in the South. We need to offer tailored solutions to meet the needs of America's small towns and rural communities. We should invest in community colleges, which are particularly important in rural areas and open rural small business centers to provide investment capital and advice to help entrepreneurs get off the ground.


But even here, his choice of phrasing -- "It is important not to forget rural poverty" -- suggests that there is some danger of his forgetting it.  Based on all this evidence, I agree with Elle: Edwards is an urban populist, not an agrarian radical.


So how do you explain the fact that Edwards' strongest support comes from rural areas?


This is the most astonishing poll of the cycle so far.



This poll was taken by WaPo in an attempt to prove that Obama doesn't have African-American support locked up.  It does that, but the most shocking statistic is the Edwards numbers.  The crusader for the inner-city poor is backed by four times FEWER blacks, who form a disproportionate percentage of the urban poor.  What is going on here?


I asked Elle for her thoughts, and here's what she had to say on the question:


...the Southern good ol' boy thing?  i'm not sure if you meant what he says or his accent, but i hope people don't underestimate the effect of the latter.  i always tell the story of how i liked watching CSI: Miami, but for the longest time I wouldn't b/c of Emily Proctor's voice.  she sounded like the white women from my rural hometown and the tension and memories associated with that means that her voice grates on my nerves.


what it might signal, in edwards's case, is that beneath the rhetoric, he's still a white southerner. the associated steretypes are damaging.


Beyond the cultural barrier between black voters and Edwards, Elle and Eugene also make a second argument: Edwards' focus on the right to work, rather than the right to freedom from poverty, turns off a lot of urban voters.  Here's Eugene:


...not all work is honorable - despite the New Deal era rhetoric of the nobility of manual labor, it still remains dangerous, exploitative, and unremunerative. And it's shot through with racist and sexist assumptions and practices that either make it hellish for women of color in particular, or deny them any place at all.


So when Edwards goes down the road of a "working society" I stand there at the crossroads, wondering whether to wave goodbye or shrug my shoulders. To me, people deserve all those things by the fact of their being alive, not the fact that they hold a job. And given America's history of defining "work" as something whites do and people of color threaten, I am a bit cautious about what the effect of Edwards' language will be. ...


Ultimately that's what troubles me about Edwards' language. What does it offer those who cannot work, or those who are underemployed, or exploited in their labor? It runs the very real risk of simply reinforcing existing inequalities.


I agree with both of these arguments for Edwards' curious inability to connect with African-Americans, a critical sector of the urban poor.  But there is a flip side to this equation for Edwards: the flaws in his candidacy for the urban poor are strengths perfectly equipped to appeal to the rural poor.  His southern good ol' boy demeanor, so out of place in the cities, makes him fit right in with farmers and white Southerners.  His arguments in favor of the right to work are also a perfect fit for rural dwellers, given that farm-based communities are used to a higher quality of work experience than those in cities -- the difference between agricultural work and factory work.


His appeal to the rural poor is also Edwards' greatest strength for a Democratic ticket.  With all due respect to the urban poor, the only way they're going to vote for a Republican is if Rudy Giuliani, another urban populist, is the nominee -- which I'm pretty certain won't happen.  The rural poor, on the other hand, are a critical swing constituency, largely because they feel neither party is interested in their issues.  For this reason, the rural poor have always been susceptible to joining third-party splinter groups; they were the core constituency of the late-1800's Greenbacker and Populist parties, Robert La Follette's agrarian Progressive Presidential candidacy in 1924, and Strom Thurmond and George Wallace's Southern conservative bids in 1948 and 1968.


John Edwards is perfectly positioned to appeal to this group -- I'd guess they form the strength in his poll numbers, as further evidenced by his strong numbers in Iowa.  If I worked on Edwards' campaign, I'd suggest that, without abandoning his urban populism, he retool his rhetoric, fashioning it into a sharp defense of the rural poor.  The day Edwards becomes an agrarian radical will be the day Edwards sweeps the field.


Display:


My first substantive diary in a while (3.00 / 4)

Hope you enjoy it.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 01:45:41 AM EST

About Edwards Schedule (3.00 / 3)

I get that you're putting a spotlight on the rhetoric, but you have pointed to the schedule.  And I'd like to point out something that the Hotline blog pointed out about his schedule.

It's fundraising month, folks. Let Obama to Iowa and HRC do New Hampshire...

Right now Edwards is trying to build the sort of campaign COH that Obama and HRC were able to transfer from their Senate campaign funds.  I have no doubt that Senator Edwards understands that he needs to fight for the support of rural voters.


by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (none / 0)

That's fine.  The candidates have a lot of time to address their weaknesses.  I'm just pointing out one that I'm betting the Edwards campaign hasn't thought about.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (3.00 / 3)

I'm betting you don't realize how well Edwards did in rural Iowa because he understood rural NC.
I'm betting you don't realize that Mudcat is on the team as a close advisor.
That's what I'm betting on.
Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (none / 0)

You're betting wrong.  I'm just saying that Edwards needs to be MORE explicit about his rural radicalism.  Maybe he would have WON Iowa if he'd done that.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A good historian (none / 0)

is willing to modify his/her views based on new data.  Your unwillingness to do that suggests a great deal about your scholarship.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:59:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A good historian (none / 0)

Actually, I HAVE modified my views somewhat based on the data and opinions offered here.  ManFromMiddletown and the inimitable Elizabeth Edwards were especially persuasive in that regard.  It's just that you've been unfailingly rude to me, and I see no reason to respond substantively, even though I've come around to a lot of what you have to say.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (3.00 / 3)

Sorry, have to disagree strenously with yout there.

I think that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Edwards campaign has been up to.  Hiring on Bonior was a clear sign that Edwards has no intention of avoiding a fight in rural America.  Bonior was  for a long time the UAW's main man in Congress, and they along with a smattering of other unions form the backbone of democratic central committees in counties throughout the Midwest (Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, etc.  Not the Plains as the term is often incorrectly used.)

Edwards message of economic populism is aimed at the  people who've lost their jobs because of trade and then being told they're responsible for their own misfortune, and that they need to get an education.  Neither Obama nor Clinton is prepared to offer this message.  They will lose this primary beause of that, and they deserve to.


by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (none / 0)

Since when do unions have anything to do with rural America?  This is Granger territory we're talking about.

I DO like Edwards' message -- in fact, at the moment he's my top choice (though very narrowly) -- I just think he needs to get it out better and through a slightly different angle.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Point Is About Working vs. Middle Class (3.00 / 1)

Those who've already been shafted vs. those afraid that they're next.

And I'm inclined agree that you're mistaken about Edwards on this point.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Point Is About Working vs. Middle Class (3.00 / 1)

Those who've already been shafted vs. those afraid that they're next.

Damn straight.

Shaft us once, shame on us.

Shaft us twice, we're going to get our torches and pitchforks and teach you a thing or two about what it's like to be shafted.


by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:28:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (3.00 / 4)

You clearly know close to nothing about the role  unions and in particular the UAW play in small towns across the Midwest where the principal employer in town is a unionized factory (often on the brink of either shutting down or being shipped overseas)

It's the unionized workers that form the basis of the Democratic party in these areas, and for the past twenty years they've basically been told that saving their jobs, and putting food in their children's mouths matters less that the culture war shit that is the fixation of the donor classes.  

Either the Democratic party learns to show a little solidarity with the people who see everything they've worked their entire lives for being taken away, or the Democratic party deserves to wither into history so that working people can have a say in the life of the nation.

What working people used to have wasn't much, but it was their American dream.  And it's being torn away from them piece by piece by an economic elite that feels their privilege is a natural right.


by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (3.00 / 1)

You're right, I didn't know anything about unions.  And what you're saying makes a lot of sense, and helps to explain the considerable overlap between rural and urban populism.

Maybe I'm not giving Edwards a fair shake here.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (3.00 / 4)

That's what you're missing, but you're far from alone in that.  It's why people like me and I think Phil get frustrated with the presentation as you've made it.

Remember this, looking at historical union density across the nation as a whole went down about 16.8%.  

Most people assume these loss came primarily in large metro areas, a simple pass through the reality of union density decline 1964-2005 by state challenges that.  I didn't realize that my home state would be #1 be I can't say it suprises me.  These are the biggest victims of the class war.  And this is where a populist message can bring the greatest change.  Consider the populist revolt that happened in the 2006 elections, then compare and contrast.  I didn't realize how will it fit the story until I ran the numbers in Excel.


Union density decline 1964-2005

Indiana                28.4
Montana                26.4
Washington        25.2
Michigan        24.2
Oregon                24.2
Pennsylvania        23.8
West Virginia        22.1
Ohio                21.6
Minnesota        21.2
Idaho                19.4
Nevada                19.4
New Jersey        18.9
Utah                18.9
Illinois        18.7
Wisconsin        17.8
Delaware        17.3
All States        16.8
Alaska                16.8
Tennessee        16.7
California        16.3
Iowa                16.1
Missouri        15.6
Kentucky        15.2
Nebraska        14.6
Kansas                14.2
New Hampshire        13.9
Massachusetts        13.8
Colorado        12.9
Wyoming                12.9
Connecticut        12.8
Maine                11.9
Louisiana        11.6
Arizona                11.5
Maryland        11.3
Alabama                10.9
Virginia        10.9
Oklahoma        10.4
Arkansas        10.2
Rhode Island        10.0
North Dakota        9.8
New York        9.3
Florida                8.6
Mississippi        8.2
South Dakota        8.1
Texas                8.1
Vermont                7.5
District of Columbia    7.1
Georgia                6.8
New Mexico        5.9
North Carolina        5.4
South Carolina        4.7
Hawaii               -4.2



by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 04:31:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: About Edwards Schedule (none / 0)

even though the unions decline in california is at a higher rate than idaho,I can garentee you that the unions are 100 times stronger in cal than in idaho.if you live in a right to work state both your unions and wages are going to be pathitic.


by idahojim on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:05:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (3.00 / 1)

I think Edwards is more in the Huey Long mode than La Guardia.


by BrionLutz on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 01:52:53 AM EST

I meant to mention Huey (none / 0)

Thing is, Huey was a complete charlatan; he was corrupt, and his proposals didn't work.  Edwards seems more (though still not completely) sincere.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:07:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I meant to mention Huey (3.00 / 1)

"Huey was a complete charlatan; he was corrupt, and his proposals didn't work."

Nope...Long did a great job as Governor of Louisiana with his populist programs, schools, roads, attacking big oil and special interests.


by BrionLutz on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:04:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I meant to mention Huey (none / 0)

...while he was building himself a nice big mansion and embezzling taxpayer dollars.  But his "Share the Wealth" program in the Senate was what I was thinking about.  It simply didn't work.  There wasn't enough money available from the pockets of ten-millionaires to do more than buy a Coke for every working American.  Huey knew that, yet he allowed his supporters to pin their hopes on it anyway.  Despicable, in my book.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I meant to mention Huey (none / 0)

" But his "Share the Wealth" program in the Senate was what I was thinking about.  It simply didn't work."

It never passed so we don't know if would have worked or not.

" Huey knew that, yet he allowed his supporters to pin their hopes on it anyway."

I get the same feeling from Edwards "we are only going tax millionaires" to finance universal health care.

That cannot work anymore than Long's tax policy would work and it is divisive.  I know a few millionaires who are very liberal and wanting to help out but don't want to be human sacrifices.

We need an honest revamping of US tax code. Just dump the 2,000 page mess and go with very progressive schedule that taxes all income, wage, investment, inherited.  Whatever budget we pass, taxes match it.

Now that would be a real populist plan and could pay for universal Medicare.


by BrionLutz on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I meant to mention Huey (none / 0)

Well, there is a big difference between trying to get enough money to pay for people's needs than just paying for their medicine. It costs a lot more to pay for food, electricity, water, etc., as opposed to what Edwards is proposing.


by JewishJake on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:19:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I meant to mention Huey (none / 0)

makeing millionaires pay for health care wouldnt be a human sacrifice.letting people die becouse they cant afford health care is.you and your so called friends are obviousely republicans.


by idahojim on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:09:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I meant to mention Huey (none / 0)

"makeing millionaires pay for health care wouldnt be a human sacrifice."

It would be no different than tossing virgins into volcanoes.  Not enough money there to pay the US's $2T per year health care bill so all you do is burn through a few millionaires to create some new health insurance and drug company millionaires.


by BrionLutz on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I meant to mention Huey (none / 0)

yea right,trust me Iam not going to waste my time argueing with a person who is both a moron and ignoble.I know that in 10 years or less there will be nation wide fedraly funded by raiseing taxes on millionaires health care.you can always move to turkey,I here they pay no taxes at all.


by idahojim on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (3.00 / 2)

I asked Elle for her thoughts, and here's what she had to say on the question:

   ...the Southern good ol' boy thing?  i'm not sure if you meant what he says or his accent, but i hope people don't underestimate the effect of the latter.  i always tell the story of how i liked watching CSI: Miami, but for the longest time I wouldn't b/c of Emily Proctor's voice.  she sounded like the white women from my rural hometown and the tension and memories associated with that means that her voice grates on my nerves.

   what it might signal, in edwards's case, is that beneath the rhetoric, he's still a white southerner. the associated steretypes are damaging.

Well, I think Occum's razor applies here. The simplest explanation is probably the correct one. I don't think urban blacks don't support Edwards because he's a Southern good 'ol boy. I think they support Hillary because she's the wife of the first black president of the US, Bill Clinton (incidentally, another white southerner with an accent....that kind of puts a whole in your theory about the accent being a turn-off for blacks). I also think they support Obama because, well, he actually is black. I also think they support both of them instead of Edwards because it's very early and people aren't paying attention and the media is giving the most coverage to Clinton and Obama.


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:24:02 AM EST

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (none / 0)

But Bill's accent isn't NEARLY so good'ol boy sounding as Edwards'.  And he doesn't strut and swagger like Edwards.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (3.00 / 2)

I'm betting you don't realize that Edwars never was a good ole' boy.
I'm betting you don't know his degree was from NC State in Textile Engineering.
I'm betting you don't realize that he was the first in his family to go to college.
I'm betting you don't know that Edwards ran the 1998 primary against the Party good ole boy.
I'm betting you're making stuff up about the accent because of your biases.
Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm betting (3.00 / 1)

you're wrong.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm betting (none / 0)

If that is the case, then you would have never written this diary.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:00:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Stats show Blacks don't like Edwards (3.00 / 3)

Hillary Clinton has more Black support than Barack Obama, so Blacks' support is not based primarily on color.  Although Edwards has had more opportunity to introduce himself to Blacks, most Blacks clearly don't like him, even though he is focusing on issues that clearly affect Blacks to a great degree.

I and most Blacks could easily overlook Edwards' southern accent and come to like him, just as I and most Blacks did with Jimmy Carter (Georgia accent) and Bill Clinton (Arkansas accent).

The problem is that we simply don't find Edwards credible when he suddenly becomes a "two Americas" populist.  We find it more likely that this is simply a death-bed conversion, such as that which Gore experienced when his poll numbers were slipping in 2000.  Edwards' "two Americas" spiel shows, in my opinion, a candidate in seach of relevance.

The poll numbers you cited show that Edwards is not going anywhere, even if he wins Iowa, which I don't think he can do.  His "help the poor" spiel is going to alienate even Democratic voters who are not poor, and it does not attract the Democratic voters who are low income, such as urban Blacks.

If Edwards were a Black man, a woman or Latino, instead of a white man, it would be clearer to us that his rhetoric serves to isolate him from the mainstream of America.  But, we expect his white Kennedyesque looks to appeal to much of the electorate while his his appeal to the poor rounds up Blacks the lower class.  It isn't working and the polls tell us that.  Whites nationally like Barack Obama more than they like Edwards, and with good reason.  Barack Obama is more sincere, has more experience actually helping poor people as an organizer (3 years) and state elected official (8 years), and now in the US Senate (2 years).  That's a combined total of fifteen years working to help poor people, compared to six years as a dilletante in the US Senate for Edwards.

Although I liked Edwards when I first heard of him, I am offended by his "two Americas' spiel.  If there is a real dichotomy of two Americas, it is the divide between those who have historically had the right to vote (white men) and everybody else, including women, Blacks, Latinos, Asians and Indians who did not have the right to vote until very recently.  This lack of political power for the electorally disenfranchised manifested itself in the poverty that Edwards says he seeks to alleviate.  Yet, electing another white man as President when we have very good alternatives is precisely the WRONG step to take to alleviate a problem that began and continues to relate to the white male monopoly of political power in America.  

That best way to end the two Americas dichotomy when we are in the voting booth in 2008 is to vote for a Democratic presidential candidate who was historically excluded by virtue of being part of the "other America", i.e. a woman or a Black man or a Latino.  Edwards' own definition of the problem proves that he should not be the Democratic nominee in 2008.


by francislholland on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:32:47 AM EST

Re: Stats show Blacks don't like Edwards (3.00 / 0)

I haven't heard Edwards mention "two americas" in a long time.

Listen to the DNC winter meeting speech.


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:59:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So, Harold Ford or DiFi Would Cure Our Ills? (3.00 / 1)

That best way to end the two Americas dichotomy when we are in the voting booth in 2008 is to vote for a Democratic presidential candidate who was historically excluded by virtue of being part of the "other America", i.e. a woman or a Black man or a Latino.  Edwards' own definition of the problem proves that he should not be the Democratic nominee in 2008.
I'm very skeptical of Edwards because of his rhetoric on Iran. But the notion that one's identity automatically makes one a better, more progressive candidate seems hopelessly naive to me.

What we need above all else in 2008 is a realigning election that utterly changes the political discourse for at least a generation to come. Polarization around economic justice is surely a plausible way to do that, and because Edwards holds the promise of possibly doing that, I think he deserves serious consideration.

His overheated rhetoric on Iran causes me deep concern, however.  But his example on economics is a standard we should ask other candidates to meet, if not exceed.  And I surely don't see Clinton or Obama doing that so far.

It surely wouldn't hurt if their supporters pressed them in this direction.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 12:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stats show Blacks don't like Edwards (none / 0)

While I agree with Paul's comment above, I'm white and I also don't trust Edwards for many of the same reasons.  Thanks for your comment.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stats show Blacks don't like Edwards (3.00 / 2)

ba ha ha ha

Edwards got 40% of the Black vote in SC last time around despite Kerry's courting.

I'll take facts over year-out "stats."


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and Sharpton (none / 0)


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stats show Blacks don't like Edwards (3.00 / 1)

Holland, you say that most blacks don't like Edwards, and that whites like Obama more than Edwards, where is your proof?  Every favorability poll I've seen has Edwards and Obama way ahead, neck and neck.
You said that because he is a white man, he can't run on the two Americas theme, that it can only be offered by a woman or racial minority.  This is about economics, not race- or gender-based identity politics.  While it would be nice to have a black or female president, they'd have to do something for us.  Hillary isn't going to do anything for us.  I don't know if Barack would, either, he hasn't said much, yet.
John has made it clear whose side he is on.  John was the son of an effing millworker, the first in his family to go to college.  Counting myself among the rural poor, and as a white male, I am offended when you say that we have not been among disenfranchised.  We may have gotten the vote before blacks and women, but we had to fight for it, too, and for decades.
You doubt the validity of Edwards conversion, yet declare him isolated from the mainstream?  Fine, I get it.  You want progressives and liberals who appeal to the middle class.  Fine.  I don't.  I want someone who will help people like me.  Hillary will not.  The Clintons are liberals, and more economic liberalism will not help poor people like me.  Don't misunderstand, John isn't against the market.  Although he has been accused of it, he isn't a protectionist.  He isn't a socialist.  He says he wants an economy that works for us.  The market is a good dog, but an awful master.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stats show Blacks don't like Edwards (none / 0)

Sorry for the overheated, under-thought out post.  I'm sick and exhausted, and not entirely in my right mind.  It just frustrates me that we populists always have to prove ourselves to everyone else.  No one trusts us.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stats show Blacks don't like Edwards (3.00 / 1)

Oh yeah (eyeroll). Lets strike a blow against interited privilege by electing someone who's biggest qualification is that she banged an ex-(white guy)-president.

Impeccable logic there.


by ElitistJohn on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't agree with your post at all. (none / 0)

I live in W TN and am surronded daily by African Americans yet I have never heard anything at all of which you are talking. I don't see any support for your view other than it is your view.

W Tn is closer to Clinton territory, the whole state leans toward CLinton and part of that is that Gore was his VP.  Gore would walk with the state of TN if he were to run.  It is true that Ford and Clinton are forming an alliance, therefore making it imperative that John Edwards spend much time in TN and surrounding states.IMO

I see more that don't like Obama, than more that do not like Edwards.  The problem here that I see is simply a problem of not enough exposure to John Edwards, if he were here as much as in Iowa, you would see his stats grow beyond even Hillary.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 06:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't agree with your post at all. (none / 0)

Gore didn't win Tennessee in 2000.  I think he'd probably win it this time around, but in a walk?  It's hardly a given that a state that went red in the last two elections is going to fall all over Gore this time...


"It's not enough to say you'll be ready from Day One - you have to be right from Day One."
by schroeder on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:30:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (3.00 / 1)

I supported Edwards in 04 when he was vp nominee just like Kerry.
This time I am closely following the whole thing.
I decided early not to support Edwards because something bugged me.  For all the talk of his populism and that, I cannot come to see how a man, especially one in his 50s, can have a complete change in his stands and ideas and thinking in one year's time.
he began as a relatively centrist dem.  Now he is the great progressive hope?  In one year.
I am suspicious of this.
he is appealing and seems to come across as an idealist but, I cannot reconcile the man of 2 years ago and see a total flip and it be totally for real.
Who is the real Edwards.
I also am bothered by the fact that his senate record is not impressive and he has not put out much on his policies and on the issues.  He has no clear plan or substance on anything.
I like the man but, remain suspicious of him.
I am sorry about that because I am not convinced on who he is.  Someone playing a part to get the White House or a true man of the people.
by vwcat on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 09:44:53 AM EST

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (3.00 / 1)

I guess you wouldn't have supported Robert F. Kennedy then either. What with him being a conservative McCarthyite in the 50s and all.


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 10:00:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (none / 0)

Interestingly enough, I don't think it's his ideas that have changed, it's his rhetoric.  He's always been an antipoverty crusader.  But I still don't really trust him, even though I might vote for him.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (none / 0)

HE was never that much of a centrist - its just that the southern roots led to facile comparisons. He had a very high ADA rating (ie, liberal voting record) and was a impressive on the judiciary committee fighting Bush nominations. Most of his term in the Senate he was in the minority. As for "no clear plan or substance," look at his website - th efirst thing you'll see is a detailed plan for universal health coverage; search around for the speech he gave last year about fighting poverty which had concrete proposals for job creation, higher wages, better educational opportunities, better health care -- and above all, check out what he did for most of 05 and 06: he traveled to cities where HERE was organizing hotels, he walked picket lines, he helped them raise money and press for the Hotel Workers Rising campaign.

I'm not even sure I'll be supporting him but vwcat's silliness needs to be corrected.


by desmoulins on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:33:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the link to Elle (3.00 / 1)

That's a great blog, from a very well-informed, thoughtful and incisive blogger.


by francislholland on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 11:47:21 AM EST

Re: Thanks for the link to Elle (none / 0)

I'm glad you clicked through and found her.  She's become a good friend in a very short period of time.  One of my favorites.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:43:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Like I Said At My Left Wing (3.00 / 4)

How Come I Always Disagree With You?

You always say interesting things.  There's always a lot to think about.  And I usually agree with a lot of your sub-points.  But I almost always disagree with your major thesis.

It's a good thing that neither one of us thinks that being right is the most important thing in the world.  Otherwise, we'd spend all our time duking it out, and miss out entirely on the benefits of having our ideas challenged.

Anyway, in this case my problem is with the simplistic nature of this agrarian radical/urban populist dichotomy.  It overlooks both a great deal of complexity involved in both, as well as the existence of an urban radical tradition, which itself has some very different manifestations.

I could easily write an essay about this.  A brief but cogent comment is a bit harder. So I'll settle for a few iceberg tips, rather than the ship-sinking hidden mass:

(1) FDR was not an urbanite.  He was from the landed aristocracy, and though he drew tremendous support from the Democrats urban bases, his agricultural policies were the most quickly developed and applied, while his rural development programs--the TVA specifically, rural electrification generally--had epochal impacts in addition to those of the New Deal generally.

(2) Furthermore, since I know your interest is as much (if not more) in rhetoric as in actions, FDR's rhetoric spanned a wide range, and needs to be considered in its form as well as its substance.  While his famed "Fireside Chats" reached out to everyone, they clearly had a much stronger resonance for the rural poor, who were far more likely to have actual firesides.  Even before his rural electrification made it possible for many of them to hear him, he was implicitly evoking them as his ideal audience, and tapping into the image of Jefferson's yoeman farmer, just as he consciously invoked Jefferson's image repeatedly--not least in the building of the Jefferson memorial.

(3) LaGuardia was out of the Republican Progressive tradition.  The Progressives were many things, but one of them was a procedural bourgoise bulwark against substantive, immigrant working-class socialism.  The procedural language of good government was a two-edged sword--against both the corrupt urban bosses and the rising power of working class socilists.  While Edwards is far from being a socialist, his focus on fundamental substantive injustice is closer to the socialists at its core than it is to the porgressives' proceduralism.

In LaGuardia's time, of course, proceduralism properly construed could and did have enormous substantive benefits.  But that has long not been the case in America, and the main difference between Edwards and the mainstream of recent Democratic politics is the starkness of his language in addressing this fundamental fact.

(4) The whole language/image thing is probably quite true.  But it has nothing to do with the rhetorical tradition argument.  Rather, it's an alternative explanation.

(5) Because of David Caruso, the judgement of anyone who likes Miami CSI is subject to extreme doubt.  Particularly someone who finds another cast-member's voice annoying. Caruso is arguably the most insufferable TV actor ever.  He positively snivels, even when he's snarling.

I hate to say it, but he actually makes Walker, Texas Ranger seem appealing by comparison.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 12:45:14 PM EST

Why you always disagree with me: (3.00 / 1)

a) because you suck

b) because there's maybe a good bit to disagree with in what I'm saying.

In this case, more of the latter. :)

I did mention that there's a lot of complexity in the urban/rural populist divide, didn't I?  Yet there's no denying that the movements have been shockingly divided throughout most of history.  William Jennings Bryan, the quintessential agrarian radical, couldn't gin up enough support in the cities to pull a cart, let alone win an election.  Urban candidates like Al Smith and Eugene Debs (I know they were from different movements, but still both urban), on the other hand, did terribly in rural areas.  Can you think of an urban/rural radical fusion Presidential candidate in American history?  The only figure I can think of who would fit that at all is Big Bill Haywood.

You're right that FDR doesn't fit the model, and your points are well taken.  I was wrong to bring him into the discussion, though it seemed unavoidable because Edwards brought him up in that speech.

I did know that LaGuardia's movement was against socialism, but that doesn't to me discredit the fact that the progressives WERE radical in their own way.  The Socialists and other associated radicals like Haywood were instrumental in moving the Overton window so that less radical, but still radical elements like the Republican Progressives could take center stage.  Someone like Hiram Johnson may not have seemed all that radical in his own day, but today he'd barely be able to fit in the Democratic Party.

I don't disagree with you that the language/image thing is different from the historical thing, but it plays into the agrarian radical tradition.  As long as Edwards sounds like Tom Watson, he should start appealing to Tom Watson's voters, not LaGuardia's.

David Caruso SUCKS, doesn't he?  But Elle's still cool. :)

Thanks for your comments.  It's always a pleasure.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why you always disagree with me: (3.00 / 1)

(1) One thing you're not addressing is that, predominantly agrarian = native/white Protestant vs. urban = immigrant/non-white and/or non-Protestant.

To me, this is far too crucial to leave out of consideration.

(2)

As long as Edwards sounds like Tom Watson, he should start appealing to Tom Watson's voters, not LaGuardia's.
(a) Why is this either/or?

(b) Assuming your race-based breakdown is a good indicator why are you suggesting that he needs to go more after those he's already reaching, and less after those he logically should be reaching, but hasn't yet done as well with?

(c) Why should we buy that assumption?

(3)

David Caruso SUCKS, doesn't he?  But Elle's still cool. :)
I will eagerly and enthusiastically defend my embrace of Buffy, The Vampire Slayer or Desperate Housewives.  Will Elle do the same with Caruso?


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 04:00:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Like I Said At My Left Wing (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for point (3), I think that gets overlooked a lot. Progressive is somewhat a word of convenience since the s-word is verboten in this country.

I think that is still why I'm waiting on Obama. He seems to be a Progressive in the 1915 sense of the word. Sort of a radical technocrat. After all, his main theme is bringing people together to "get things done". Given the fact that he believes that the biggest problem is our poisoned politics rather than the plans and policies themselves (so privatizing everything is a good idea or a good plan?), he's sounding more and more to me like someone who wants incremental change done through a non-partisan legislative agenda.

The fact that he's still basically paying lip-service to unions, rather than embracing them as a key bulwark for social and economic justice also says to me that he wants to get back to the Clinton years, not the FDR years.

I'll wait to see though what his health care plan looks like before I pass judgement. If he's going for single-payer or a path to single-payer, then I will be very impressed. But I'm still waiting.


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Like I Said At My Left Wing (3.00 / 1)

How is Obama a "radical technocrat"?  He couches his ideas in consensus language like no 1915 Progressive would ever dream of doing.  Sorry, I can't agree.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Like I Said At My Left Wing (none / 0)

The radical part is from the consensus language and the high aspirations. But the technocrat part comes from him wanting government to be a non-partisan entity. He seeks to shun differences. Differences in race, ideology, or culture. This inclusiveness is the consensus you speak of. But remember that one of the Progressives main goals was to create a professionalized non-partisan government that would be built around the committee format (remember how many cities went to a non-partisan city-council format of government and got rid of the mayoral system during those times?) in order to problem-solve and reach consensus.

I could go for such a vision if I knew that first the radical right's tenets of laissez-faire capitalism and destruction of government will not be given a place at the table.  


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Progressive (none / 0)

Sorry, I meant that Progressive is somewhat of a word of convenience that we use today since we can't call ourselves socialists (small s) and liberal has been a dirty word for some time now.


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive (3.00 / 1)

We are socialists?  You assume too much.  I doubt that many here are real socialists.  There are plenty of legitimate progressives and liberals here.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 02:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive (3.00 / 1)

I would venture that while few here are socialists here in the sense of Karl Marx, most here are socialists in the sense of Karl Polanyi and the vision of socialism he enunciated in the Great Transformation.


by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive (3.00 / 2)

Well I think you may have proved my point. But I'll elaborate a little. I could say "social democrats" as a term instead of socialist (once again, since it's verboten). I don't believe in the radical overthrow of the government to create a utopian society (as a Socialist big S might). But I do believe in using government and labor unions as a means to create a better life for all people all over the world. These are views that would correspond closely with the socialists (and radical New Dealers) of the 10s, 20s, and 30s, but probably not with the white Protestant Progressives of the 1910s (it would for some, I admit, but I don't think it would apply to the majority).

But the various red scares in this country meant that it was impossible for any politician to claim the mantle of socialism. Whereas it is entirely normal to be part of a socialist party in Europe (and indeed many such socialists are not much more to the left than Bill Clinton was), in this country only Bernie Sanders is allowed to call himself a "democratic socialist".  This is the case even though we progressives espouse many policies that are rooted in the social democratic or socialist tradition.  Single-payer health care is socialized medicine. Society pays together for the benefit of the individual. Social Security is a socialist pension system. Society pays for the well being of the elderly and disabled and does not leave their well-being to the whims of the market.

I proudly call myself a progressive as I think the term does do well to describe an ethic of constant work towards a better life for all people. But I strive for a social democratic society.  


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:26:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive (none / 0)

To be fair, I meant "here", as the Dem-leaning blogosphere.  MyDD tends to have a different crowd, more toward the social dems and welfare libs.  The sphere as a whole, particularly Kos, tends to have mostly progressives and liberals, not people who focus on working people's issues.  I WISH we were all social democrats.  Today, I particularly hate liberals.  Maybe its just because I'm feverish, though.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 10:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Like I Said At My Left Wing (none / 0)

"FDR was not an urbanite.  He was from the landed aristocracy"

Nope.  Roosevelt fortune was made by traders working out of the New York ports and markets. You may be confusing the Roosevelt estate, purchased with the trading money, with "landed aristocracy".

FDR himself was quite urbane by upbrining and education.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:56:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hair-Splitting (none / 0)

FDR came from old money. It's been a long time since I've read a Roosevelt biography (I read voraciously about him as a kid), but I do remember the flavor and it was all about the estates and upper-class watering holes.  And a guick check of Wikipedia confirmed my remembrance that his father was born in Hyde Park as well.

Finally, one can be quite urbane without being an urbanite.  Urbane means "Polished and smooth in manner; polite, refined, and elegant."  Europe's landed aristocracy was, for centuries, far more urbane than its urban bourgeoisie.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:05:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hair-Splitting (none / 0)

"FDR came from old money. "

You keep getting it wrong.

FDR's family money came from his maternal grandfather so it was not "old money" and FDR himself was the epitome of urbane so your entire premise of FDR as "landed gentry" was factually incorrect.

Roosevelt's money was "new money" of traders working out of New York City.

If it is "splitting hairs" then you should not have started splitting them with bad information.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:32:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

actually both sides (none / 0)

of FDR's family - the mother and father were wealthy...


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I Believe The Mother's Side Had More Money (none / 0)

Like I said, it's been a long time since I gorged on FDR biographies, but I seem to recall that the Delano's were the really super-wealthy ones.  Both sides were old stock, with money.  But, what counted as money in the late 1600s wasn't quite the same as the late 1800s.

The families were old enough that he seemed to move in a fairly narrow social set.  Of course it's well-known that Eleanor was his fifth cousin, and that Teddy gave her away at the wedding ceremony (both her parents being dead).

Wikipedia on FDR:

Franklin Delano Roosevelt was born on January 30, 1882 in Hyde Park, in the Hudson Valley in upstate New York. His father, James Roosevelt, Sr., and his mother, Sara Ann Delano, were each from wealthy old New York families, of Dutch and French ancestry respectively. Franklin was their only child. His maternal grandfather, Warren Delano, Jr., made a fortune in the opium trade in China.[1]

Roosevelt grew up in an atmosphere of privilege. Sara was a possessive mother, while James was an elderly and remote father (he was 54 when Franklin was born). Sara was the dominant influence in Franklin's early years.[2] Frequent trips to Europe made Roosevelt conversant in German and French. He learned to ride, shoot, row, and play polo and lawn tennis.

But what's more, FDR's parents were distantly related as well--though not as closely related as his father was to his first wife, as his wikipedia entry notes:

James Roosevelt (July 16, 1828 - December 8, 1900) was a businessman and father of the President of the United States Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was born in Hyde Park, New York to Isaac Roosevelt (1790-1863) and his wife Mary Rebecca Aspinwall (1809-1886).

Roosevelt's father Isaac was a fourth-generation descendant of Nicholas Roosevelt (1658-1742) who was also a sixth-generation ancestor of Theodore Roosevelt. Mary Rebecca was a sixth-generation descendant of Rebecca Stoughton, sister of William Stoughton who was judge and prosecutor during the Salem Witch Trials.

Roosevelt's business interests were primarily in coal and transportation. He was vice president of the Delaware and Hudson Railway, and president of the Southern Railway Security Company.

James was a tall, slender and wealthy man with considerable society connections, an eligible bachelor by any standard. In 1853, he married his second cousin Rebecca Howland (1831-1876). They had a son, James "Rosy" Roosevelt, Jr (1854-1927). James became a widower in 1876.

Four years later, at a party celebrating graduation of his cousin Theodore Roosevelt from Harvard University, he met a distant relative Sara Delano, they were married on October 7, 1880 and became parents of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Finally, wikipedia also has an entry for the Roosevelt family tree, so one can see how long the Roosevelts had been in Hyde Park.  The entry notes:

In 1788, Isaac Roosevelt was a delegate to the New York state convention in Poughkeepsie which voted to ratify the United States Constitution.

In the 18th century the Roosevelt family divided into two branches, the "Hyde Park Roosevelts", who by the late 19th century were Democrats, and the "Oyster Bay Roosevelts", who generally became Republicans. President Theodore Roosevelt, an Oyster Bay Republican, was Franklin's fifth cousin. Despite their political differences, which led family members to actively campaign against each other, the two branches generally remained friendly: James Roosevelt met his wife at a Roosevelt family gathering the home of Theodore's mother, and James' son Franklin married Theodore's niece, Eleanor.

The chart included with this entry shows Isaac (1726-1794) to be FDR's great-great-grandfather.  That may not be old enough money for our dear Mr. Lutz, however.

Fortunately, the entry also says:

The Roosevelt family is a prominent American political family, having produced two Presidents, Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin D. Roosevelt and a First Lady, Eleanor Roosevelt. The first member of the Roosevelt family was Claes van Rosevelt (or Rosenvelt), who arrived in New York (then known as Nieuw Amsterdam) around 1649, possibly as early as 1638. Around 1652, Claes Martensen van Rosenvelt bought a farm from Lambert van Valckenburgh[1]. This property comprised of twenty-four morgens in what is now Midtown Manhattan, including the present site of the Empire State Building.
Claes was Issac's great-grandfather, and a morgen was about 2 acres.

Again, nearly 50 acres of Manhattan farmland in 1652 may not qualify him as "old money aristocracy" in Mr. Lutz's eyes.

But as far as I'm concerned, it will just have to do until the real thing comes along.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Believe The Mother's Side Had More Money (none / 0)

"Again, nearly 50 acres of Manhattan farmland in 1652 may not qualify him as "old money aristocracy"

You forgot your characterization of FDR as "landed aristocracy", claiming rural roots for FDR that was incorrect in the context of a discussion on Edwards' "urban" populism.

FDR's family were New York traders.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As In (none / 0)

FDR's family were New York traders
Hyde Park, New York (pop. 2,806 in 1900), not New York, New York, (pop. 3,437,202 in 1900).


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John (3.00 / 2)

As an African-American, I like John Edwards. And, if Barack Obama weren't in this race, I'd be working for him like crazy.

I disagree with you about the urban poor giving ANY Republican a consideration, including Rudy.

One Name.

Amadu Diallo.

Never would they vote for Rudy.

I do think that Edwards should go for both poor populations. He's given more respect to the Black community than Hillary Clinton, who is merely riding on Bill's coattails. Period.


by rikyrah on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:44:41 PM EST

Re: The Problem with John (none / 0)

You're right, I forgot about Amadou.  Good point.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 03:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Response to a Rhetorical Analysis (3.00 / 15)

The problem with analyzing rhetoric -- and remember, when I was in English graduate school, that is what I expected to spend a lifetime doing -- is that it is rhetoric.  

Instead of analyzing the language of emails or snippets from selected speeches, it might be  useful to think about the man himself, his career, his 2004 primary policies, his activities since 2004, and his 2008 policies.

He comes from the rural South. I remember the first time I went to Robbins. Actually it was with a boyfriend I had before I ever met John. (Improbably, his name is John Kennedy.) We parked in front of a small old theatre named, of course, the Dixie Theatre. There were two by fours across the door and a faded sign that said "Closed." Years later, John told me that the theatre closed after someone threw a soda bottle through the screen and the theatre didn't make enough profit to buy a new one, so they closed. The mobile home plant where he had his first job - closed. The chicken processing plant that was the largest employer - closed. The textile mill in which John's father worked - closed.  As tobacco has struggled, so have the farms in the whole state. It is impossible, iterally impossible for a thinking person not to have these circumstances inform your adult beliefs. And they informed John. His career before work was representing, for the most part, families in the worst times of their lives -- often fighting for care and nedical treatment for their children. Where were they?  Oh, some were in Charlotte -- maybe a couple over 20 years --, but most were in small towns with aging hospitals an hour's drive away or starving for doctors. A choice of doctors was almost unheard of. The most up to date equipment out of the question. And he was informed again about the hardships faced in rural America. In 2004, during the primaries, John was the ONLY candidate with a rural agenda. A fleshed out, thoughtful agenda.  He had an urban poverty agenda too -- it was called Cities Rising, if memory serves me. And then he spent two years working on poverty issues, some of it under the auspices of the new Center on Poverty, Work, and Opportunity at UNC.  What he found is that poverty and hardship don't have a single home address -- rural or urban. There is no single solution to the obstacles to success and security, although some of the solutions we know work cross these demographic boundaries. Life and life's problem, it turns out, do not care much about rhetoric.
And as for distinctions made above, I think I (as opposed to John, whose opinion on this I do not know) disagree with the way you have framed it, which may be a reflection of the time in which the rhetorical examples are drawn -- the 1890's and 1930's. The rhetoric (if backed by action) that rural America wants in 2007 is complex - a combination of what you suggest, an intervening government, and what you don't suggest, a less invasive government. And the urban example you gave is less "urban" than it is personal. You could say those words or words like them -- and I suspect John has -- anywhere in this country.
And I need to say how strongly I disagree with one of the quotations that is used to explain the divide.  John does not agree, I do not agree that not all work is honorable.  All work is honorable. (How we treat some workers or permit them to be treated is not always honorable.) And work by those who can work is a responsibility that each of has in a society where we depend on those who can to be in a position to help those who can't. Will you find academicians who suggest that there should not be a personal responsibility piece in the answer to poverty? Yes, of course you will, but you will not be able to say that that means they are more concerned with urban poverty versus rural poverty.
And finally, John will, again, have a rural agenda - not because he thinks that wins elections (inside campaigns some feel there are not enough votes there) but because that is what is inside him. The forgotten America. There is no danger, none whatsoever, of his forgetting it. It would be like forgetting his own name.  

Elizabeth Edwards
I will cross-post to the places you posted.


by ElizabethEdwards on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 04:05:49 PM EST

Thank you for your response (3.00 / 1)

It's truly an honor to have you read my words.  I should mention that, despite some problems I have with his candidacy, I'm leaning toward supporting John at the moment, so none of this should be taken as an attack on him.

It's wonderful and deeply encouraging to hear that John is so committed to alleviating rural poverty.  I didn't know that much about his background, as I was one of those fanatical Dean supporters in 2004 (and didn't take that much time to learn about the other candidates, much to my chagrin).  It's great to hear that his won't be an entirely urban-based campaign.

But I do think that an analysis of his rhetoric is warranted, if only because that is the primary way he's known to others as a candidate.  His rhetoric is also the part of his campaign that will reverberate beyond it, inspiring and influencing people beyond even the confines of his supporters (think, for instance, of the impact the "Ask not" speech of John Kennedy (not your John Kennedy :) ) had on generations of Americans, and is still having on those like me who weren't even born when he delivered it).  So if Mr. Edwards' rhetoric isn't matching up with his views on rural poverty, then there's something to be said for giving his rhetoric another look.

While I agree with you that Rural America is looking for complex and nuanced action on poverty, I think the same was true in 1890; I doubt there were many rural poor who truly believed that Free Silver would solve all their problems.  And yet there's something to be said for a clarion call like Donnelly's or William Jennings Bryan's, precisely because it doesn't let the emotional helplessness of the poor disappear in a mountain of position papers.  As someone who was energized and inspired by Howard Dean's 2003 call "I want my country back," I'm still waiting for Mr. Edwards to sound a similarly clear and driven note on poverty.

Now, I understand Mr. Edwards hasn't been on the campaign trail very long, and that the rural poverty aspects of his stump speech have plenty of time to come out into full view.  His Winter Meeting speech was a fantastic start (far better than Obama's, who seems to have decided it's better to lecture the voters rather than to understand them).  And it's precisely because I think Mr. Edwards is the only one out there who gets it that I'm so hard on him.  At present, I think he's a very good, very strong candidate.  I think he has the potential to be a great one if he makes his rhetoric line up with what you've persuasively argued are his beliefs on rural poverty.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 04:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (none / 0)

I cross-posted your response to ProgressiveHistorians, too, which is where this post originated, but which I forgot to link as a cross-post above.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 04:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Response to a Rhetorical Analysis (3.00 / 1)

You should really consider posting this as it's own diary.  At this point this diary has slipped off the recommended list.

I guarantee you, you'll shock the hell out of the frontpagers if you do.

All I can say to what you've said is I agree.  Most especially in the inherent dignity of all work no matter whether you're a maid or a millionaire.

I come from Muncie, Indiana (Middletown, as in in the classic study of an American city), and just this week back home they shut another factory down.  They're not alone.  My father worked at the other big factory in town, they shut it down in 2005.  

I know a lot of the guys who worked at Borg Warner , and I have to tell you that when the paper runs articles saying , "For many BorgWarner employees, getting an education will be the next step" they seem to miss that many of the men and women who worked there already had college degrees.

Me, I tried to make a living after I graduated from the local college.  I couldn't.  So many people I know who graduated with me are working for $7.50/hour and the public libary.  It's not enough to survive, and certainly not enough to bring a family up.

We have no choice but to leave.  Me, I'm lucky, I'm back in school, and hopefully when I get out it will be to a better life.  I may be leaving Muncie, but Muncie will never leave me.

And I think that's what you're trying to say about your husband also.  He knows where he came from.

And that's the reason I'm going to vote for him, and I want him to be our next president.


by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Response to a Rhetorical Analysis (3.00 / 2)

I recommended the diary now (it's back on recommended list) so hopefully people will see Elizabeth's response.

Thank you for pointing out the role of unions and factories in rural America. The diarist made a fundamental error in assuming that you can make a direct comparison between the agrarian revolt of the 1890s and rural America today.

But anyway I appreciate the stories about Muncie. I grew up on a farm in central Illinois and after my dad couldn't farm full time he went to work for a small commodities plant in a little town. Then he got laid off about 4 years later and had to start over with another career. He was lucky because he already had some education and experience that allowed him to get a state job (after trying a few other jobs too) but it was still a hellish year or so while we waited for him to get that job. That kind of stress sears itself into you for the rest of your life.

My dad was lucky, but there are many other families that like him in the Midwest, are finding themselves having to start over when they're 50 years old and should be thinking about retirement. Towns like Danville, Galesburg, Decatur, Peoria, and going east into Muncie IN, or even further east to Springfield, OH or Lewistown, PA. These places are hurting and the deindustrialization of America and the jobs that are leaving are leaving behind communities ravaged by unemployment, drug abuse, crime, and despair. The Clinton's talked about education as the answer. Well when tuition is now over $10,000 a year for a public institution, that's a pretty steep price to pay, especially when you need a job NOW, not four years from now (let alone the fact that a B.S. or a B.A. is not worth as much job wise as it was 15 years ago).

Obama talks about hope. Well I'll have hope when I hear what he's planning to do. I don't want hope, I want something to be done. (As usual, let me mention that I do like Obama a lot, I just won't support him until I hear what he's actually going to do as president).

Edwards is talking about what to do. And I like what he's saying. He gets it. He knows this problem won't just go away by telling people to go to school. He has my support and I'll be glad to volunteer for his campaign.  


by adamterando on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 05:49:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Response to a Rhetorical Analysis (3.00 / 1)

Elizabeth, I know there is no need for me to say this, because as you know, you can certainly be proud of John.  He has the most 'thought out' campaign that I have ever seen.  He is unselfishly striving to look at the problems from every point of view and he is doing a very good job of it.

You mentioned in your post the closings in Robbins, NC.  Well, I grew up in Caldwell County, NC which is in the Lenoir area.  'Back then' all the furniture plants were humming and most were working six days a week.  Every uncle worked at either Barnhardt, Broyhill, Kincaid or one of the other major furniture companies.  Those of us who grew up in that area can remember the wonderful smell of the cedar plant as we drove through the small town of Hudson, NC.  If you've ever driven near a bakery and smelled the bread baking you get the idea.  I can't remember Hudson without remembering the smeal of Cedar and the Santa Clause with reindeer that the mill placed on the roof every year.  As children we would beg to go and just sit in front of the mill watching the santa (not that he was going to do anything but wave and the sleigh go up and down a little) for as long as the adults would stay.  At my last class reunion we started talking about the cedar smell in Hudson and how when you drive through there now ... there is no cedar smell.  The furniture factories are closed and what few are still running are barely surviving and have almost no employees.  A couple of years ago this area had the highest rate of unemployment in the state.  The people there are hardworking people who believe in working for your living, but there were no jobs to be found.

The same problem exists with the knitting mills which is where many of the women worked.  They have gone too.  There use to be some tobacco farmers in this area although they were more prevenlent in the eastern part of the state where John grew up.  I can imagine although I haven't asked that they too aren't raising their crop anymore and that is certainly for the betterment of mankind.  I doubt they will be able to get enough income off the land to sustain themselves and their families.  Recently Google relocated their facility to the Lenoir area and I'm hoping that will be a harbinger of good things to come.

It has been a while now since a single day has passed that I didn't try to figure out something that I could do to help get John elected to the White House.  He certainly has the most worthwhile agenda.  I will keep on working if he will just keep on keeping on.

God bless you both.

CarolinaGirl aka Carolina Voice.


by Carolina Voice on Sun Feb 11, 2007 at 07:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

All work as honorable (none / 0)

One minor part of this I would disagree with is the all work as honorable part.  I'd say that if you work at best buy and your main job is to push on people insurance plans that they don't need and wont help them you wont think of your work as honorable.


by sterra on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:48:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Work Of Tobacco Lobbyists Isn't Honorable... (none / 0)

All sorts of work isn't honorable.

I understand the power of the rhetoric that "all work is honorable."  But it demeans the working poor to compare them to high-priced bandits with a fountain pen.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:14:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Work Of Tobacco Lobbyists Isn't Honorable. (none / 0)

You guys are being way too pedantic.  The point obviously isn't whether being a concentration camp guard is "honorable" work.  The issue actually raised by the post was whether manual labor, or at least some subset of manual labor, is too demeaning to be considered honorable.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:34:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Know What The Point Is (none / 0)

But in discussion of a diary concerned about rhetoric, it's hardly off-topic to point out a flaw in this common way of expressing that thought.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Response to a Rhetorical Analysis (none / 0)

It's OK to analyze politicians rhetorical style, who are they borrowing from, how do they see their campaign in the perspective of what techniques work and which don't.

I don't think the analysis here was very cogent since it likened Edwards to LaGuardia and there is little connection there.

Considering the personal details you added and Edwards populist theme of "two Americas" certainly Huey Long of Louisiana comes to mind with a similar appeal and similar roots.

Long was also a young man who grew up in the rural South, gifted intellectually but in Long's case, denied a college education (he won entry to university but could not afford it) and one who watched the Great Depression ravage the rural South he knew just as Edwards watched the changing industrial base ravage the South he knew.

There is a bigger disconnect for Edwards though since his record in the Senate is as one of the more conservative Democrats whereas Long's record was that of an ardent New Dealer and one who broke with Roosevelt and proposed even more radical solutions to income equality of the Great Depression era.

The disconnect between Edwards' senate record and his current rhetoric is why there is a question about whether the populist theme is a means to election vs. a long standing belief.  One would have expected it to manifest itself in Edwards voting record if it was a long standing guiding principle for him.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:48:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lutz: Wrong on Roosevelt, Wrong On Edwards (none / 0)

As I've just demonstrated above, Mr. Lutz is totally wrong on FDR.  He was not urban new money at all. His wealthy, land-based aristocratic roots go back to the 1650s, at least.

Likewise, I have refuted his mishcaraterization of Edwards' Senate record numerous times.  Most recently in my comment, "How Many Times Do We Have To Do This???"  Edwards had a conservative voting record in just one of the three Congresses he served in.  The other two combined were slightly left of center. He was a freshman senator representing one of the reddest states to elect a Democratic senator.  (The 107th Congress, where he scored 38th, North Carolina's other Senator, Jesse Helms, clocked in at 97th!) Not spectacular.  But not chopped liver, either.

I should point out that my enthusiasm for Edwards has considerably cooled since his tough talk on Iran.

But my enthusiasm for the truth remains undimmed.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lutz: Wrong on Roosevelt, Wrong On Edwards (none / 0)

"As I've just demonstrated above..."

Chuckle...that would be below actually...your sense of online direction is off also.

The comparison of Edwards, someone who's political passion was formed in the rural South, to La Guardia a Republican who's passion was formed in urban New York was totally missing any parallels.

LaGuardia did not talk of redistribution of wealth, his pitch was anti-corruption in New York. He had no national ambitions.  He had not "two America's" theme.

Huey Long on the other hand shared both the rural background and rhetoric of Edwards' "two Americas" and the presidential ambitions.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Changing The Subject--A Wise Move (none / 0)

Since you've been caught lying again.

But arguing with me as if I were Nonpartisan betrays previously uncharted dimensions of confusion in the Lutzoverse.

Ah, well.  We must boldly glow where no man has yawned before.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:34:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards/LaGuardia is the topic (none / 0)

My comment below is on that topic.  Your characterization of the urbane FDR as a "landed aristocracy" and my correction of that with the facts of FDR's life was a bit off topic.

"The comparison of Edwards, someone who's political passion was formed in the rural South, to La Guardia a Republican who's passion was formed in urban New York was totally missing any parallels."

Edwards, coming from modest rural means bears little resemblance to FDR who came from wealth and privilege.


by BrionLutz on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem with John Edwards' Urban Radicalis (none / 0)

I am going to support John Edwards for president because I trust him and his wife Elizabeth to do the right thing time after time after time. This will give working Americans the breathing room they deserve to live their lives and take care of their families without the despair of watching the Halliburtons of the country loot the store.

furniture deals


by galin on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 01:09:15 PM EST


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