Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise?

The one who defies gravity of course; in Virtual Reality. Want to tune into the next James Webb or Jon Tester before they get picked up by beltway pundits? Visit Virtual Reality; where under recognized Democrats often play starring roles. For the politically minded, ground zero in virtual reality might well be Daily Kos, which occupies prime online turf well seeded by the netroots. Each month brings a new Kos poll of current or probable Democratic Presidential candidates, and the results there seldom resemble Gallup.

Though us Netroots activists might be a different kind of animal than more typical Democratic voters, it's not like we're minerals instead. The netroots are affected by the same passing storms of buzz and conventional wisdom that buffet all Democrats as primary season approaches, just to a lesser extent. The major difference is, we tune in early and intently to races in preliminary stages, becoming quite familiar with some candidates most voters have barely heard of.

Conversely early scrutiny sometimes helps us locate chinks in a leading candidate's armor that the main stream media seems unwilling or incapable of finding or acknowledging. The netroots always has its favorites. Those bestowed that status win extra support when push comes to shove in the primaries, enough sometimes to rise a tier or two to become a serious contender, seemingly from out of nowhere to more conventional eyes.

Gravity is my personal metaphor to describe how a Presidential candidate's conventional poll numbers compare with his or her netroots numbers, with conventional polls forming the baseline. If John Edwards comes in at 15% in a conventional poll, but at 30% in a netroots poll, in my system Edwards defies conventional gravity by a factor of two. If Hillary Clinton scores at 40% in a mainstream poll, but only at 10% in a netroots poll, she's weighed down in netroots gravity by a factor of four.

In the last Kos presidential poll, Edwards, Obama, and Clark took the first three slots in that order. Edwards and Obama each "defied gravity", using conventional polls as ground zero, by a factor of roughly 2 to 3 times in the Kos poll. Wes Clark however "defied gravity" at Kos by a factor 5 to 10 times higher than his current standing in conventional polls. Wes Clark is unique among all of the non first tier likely presidential candidates, both by scoring in double digits in online polls to start with, and by performing so dramatically better in them than he does now in conventional polling. With Hillary Clinton though it is just the opposite. She lags at Kos in single digits, dramatically underperforming her conventional poll tallies.

If one believes the netroots can pick up on some things that most Democrats haven't figured out yet about the 2008 Democratic Presidential field, Wes Clark and Hilary Clinton stand at opposite ends of the spectrum. If Kos voters are on to something about Hillary Clinton, most likely they are about Wes Clark also. If that is the case, than Hillary Clinton is the candidate with the most unrealized downside with the Democratic electorate, while Wes Clark has the most unrealized up side.

So if you are looking for a dark horse candidate to rise to contention for the Democratic nomination, pay some attention to netroots gravity. It may be your best early indicator.



Display:


Edwards will outlast Sen. Clinton and (3.00 / 1)

on the GOP side, Hagel and Brownback will finish much stronger than the press thinks now.

Hagel is the current GOP at its best (such as it is) and Brownback is the current GOP at its very worst.

Edwards is our next president.


by HumOliver on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:58:08 AM EST

Re: Edwards will outlast Sen. Clinton and (none / 0)

Hegel is a dark horse candidate on the Republican side.  He's the only one who makes any sense to me, but I'm not a Republican.

You are not making the case that Edwards is a dark horse for the Democrats, are you?  I don't think he will win, but I wouldn't exactly call him a dark horse either.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 02:07:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

according to the MSM Edwards is a dark horse (none / 0)

Hillary and obama are the frontrunners.

so whether you want to distinguish darkhorse or underdog is semantic...

according to the MSM at least everyone but those two are underdogs.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 08:22:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

using the words "dark horse" and obama (none / 0)

in the same sentence...doesn't that make you anti-semantic?


"blogtopia - yes, i coined that phrase!"
by skippy on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 02:14:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards is loved in Iowa. (none / 0)

He had a shoestring budget in 04 and even then pulled within 6 points of John Kerry in the caucus.  

When he and Elizabeth are in a room, a hall, a space of any sort, the attention and energy in that space are drawn to them, yet they aren't desperately trying to grab it.

I understand "dark horse" but see none per se for the Democrats this year.  Hagel on the moderate right and Brownback on the far right, I think, stand better chances at a long run toward the GOP nomination than Giuliani, McCain, or Romney.

Biden's one of the top dogs in foreign policy but campaigning doesn't seem to be his greatest skill.  Chris Dodd is plenty smart but I'm not seeing a New Englander emerge from Iowa and Nevada, and if he or she did, there'd be a buzz saw waiting in South Carolina.

The media yap about Sen. Obama and Sen. Clinton as if Edwards hadn't announced.  I think Edwards and Richardson place 1 and 2 in Nevada and Edwards wins in Iowa a few days earlier, and then contends strongly in New Hampshire, then wins big in South Carolina.  I think he arrives at the convention with a pile of delegates, possibly enough for a first-ballot victory.


by HumOliver on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 09:51:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards is loved in Iowa. (none / 0)

Edwards may well be loved by many in Iowa, but he still has stiff competition there, even though Edwards has campaigned a couple of dozen times or so in Iowa simce the 2004 election.  It is precisely because Iowa is such a retail politics state that it is too early to say who will be most loved in Iowa by January 2008.  By then, a number of Democratic candidates will have campaigned in Iowa dozens of times.  

One thing that Iowans by and large do NOT do is make up their minds a year out from their caucus, never to open again. Were that true, Dick Gephard would have left Iowa in 2004 riding a wave of momentum, for he too had long been known and loved in Iowa.  New Hampshire is not that different than Iowa in terms of retail politics.  John Kerry was well known and liked in New Hampshire prior to the 2004 election cycle, yet his popularity there bounced around like a Yo Yo.

I don't doubt that John Edwards does, but we have a number of candidates who can connect with an audiance.  Speaking both of connecting with audiances AND Nevada, here is a link to a YouTube video of Wes Clark speaking in Douglas County on January 27th (Bill Richardson was also at this event, and Clark was very gracious to him).  

It is obvious from watching this video how very well Wes Clark connects with an audiance.  On top of that, it really is a great speech, with a whole lot of substance to it.  His substantitive comments began with:

"My name is Wes Clark, I'm an American soldier, and I'm fighting for America."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gATajHW7 LI


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:16:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clark is likely to get in the race (none / 0)

but I don't think he wins any primary state other than Oklahoma, roughly his performance for 04, and there's no guarantee he can last that long.

I admire the hell out of the guy but the crystal ball isn't saying he's going to make it.


by HumOliver on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 03:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

... Richardson.

If the MSM was not enamored of two-candidate horse races, which are the easiest to cover, then it would be covered as a top-three and second and third tier race. And of course Edwards has 11 months to make the gains in the national polls to force the MSM to cover it as a 3way race, which is plenty of time for a broad-based grass roots strategy to take hold and start to get some traction in the (meaningless other than MSM reliance on them) national polls.

However, if it is seen as either a three-way race, or else as Hillary vs Barrack, then a pair of one-two finishes for Edwards-Richardson upsets everything. That would turn the two MSM storylines into, "is Edwards the new front-runner?" and "does Richardson make this a four way race?"

And of the second tier ... and this is just a gut feeling ... I reckon Richardson is the one with the best prospect of caucusing well in Iowa.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

Richardson has some real strengths as a candidate, though I've heard of some weaknesses also. If you are just giving your gut feeling, that's fine, but beyond that you didn't make a case for Richardson.

Wes Clark has already shown that he can connect with voters in a small retail politics state, New Hampshire in 2004.  Clark was up against two very sucessful politicians from States bordering New Hampshire; Howard Dean and John Kerry. For all practical purposes New Hampshire doesn't have much of an independent media market, they receive regional coverage, especially on TV, so Dean and Kerry were virtual favorite sons in NH.

Wes Clark came in third in New Hampshire, edging out John Edwards who came in 4th there even though Edwards was then riding a tide of positive momentum coming out of Iowa, where Clark did not compete.  By so doing Clark was the top finisher in New Hampshire beyond the two essentially favorite son New England candidates. So I have something tangible to base my belief on that Clark can do well in Iowa.

And of course there is also the basic premise of this Diary; "defying gravity". Bill Richardson does not have substantial netroots support, but Wes Clark does, so while I have respect for Bill Richardson, I think Wes Clark is best positioned to make a break out move.  


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

You don't quite understand the NH/VT dynamic, I think. There is very, very little interplay between the two beyond the CT River Valley. The large majority of NH Democrats get their news from either WMUR (in-state), from Portland Maine, or (and this is by far the largest influence) Boston. Kerry very much benefited from this, but Dean ... not so much. And, outside of the Valley, most folks in NH see VT as sort of ... odd. Crunchy.

As for your second point, Clark would naturally appeal to Granite Staters more than Edwards. Much as NH ended up loving Bubba, they're not particularly inclined toward Southerners as a rule. Not exactly against, but ... just a slight cultural divide. Clark, while he's technically from AR, comes across as less defined by that than Edwards. And NH is pretty "patriotic" in a NASCAR sort of way, so the military thing plays well.

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on Clark's showing in NH, in short ...


by BriVT on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:03:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

You make some good points I think, but in my opinion you over state your opinion that I over stated mine, lol.  

Whatever cultural gap there may be between Vermont and New Hampshire, Vermont was Howard Dean's power base, and New Hampshire could not have been more conventiently located for Dean's paid staff and volunteer supporters to physically accomplish the nuts and bolts of campaigning there daily for over a year.  The same of course was true for John Kerry, except, as you agree in his case, he did benefit by Boston TV being a primary source of daily news for New Hampshire throughout John Kerry's long political career.

And people are different in ways by region, but people are also similar in far more basic ways.  People who get the attention of the world focused on them every four years because they are the early trend setters for the nation in picking Presidential candidates, which is something voters in Iowa and New Hampshire have in common, tend to take that responsibility very seriously.  They expect a lot from the candidates who make appeals to them. Candidates can't just waltz into either State, with a big name and a big budget, and expect to waltz off after election day with big vote tallies.  

A long shot still has a real shot of winning over supporters to their side in the true retail politics state contests, both Iowa and New Hampshire.  Starting out way behind with a year to go matters very little, as political history has repeatedly shown.  How well that candidate connects with the public over the course of a very long campaign though, matters a lot.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

What you say about convenience is true. It was really easy for Dean to shoot down to NH, or for VT volunteers to head over. So, yeah, Dean did have a good advantage there ... so I confess to a sin of omission there (although the media thing is totally true).

I still stand by the general point: a third place showing for Clark in NH in 2004 isn't really an indication of his political skill at all. Edwards didn't get much of a bump (the big stories out of Iowa were Kerry and The Scream), and Clark had been campaigning there exclusively for a while. And he had some built-in (and pretty minor) advantages politically over Edwards that I touched on.

Now, maybe he's turned into a great campaigner ... I don't know either way. But his showing in 2004 in NH isn't a positive assertion in his favor, imo.


by BriVT on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 11:06:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

You left out that Clark bypassed Iowa and spent his time organizing in NH instead. A third place showing there wasn't very impressive in that light. I expect Clark to do better all around this time, though.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 10:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

That's what I was saying when I said he campaigned in NH "exclusively" for a while ... but, yeah, that's a big point.

I don't know what to expect from Wes. He's definitely gotta step it up a notch from 2004 to even be in the same ballpark. The ground is not as favorable to him this time as last ...

But he did a lot of stumping and campaigning in the mid-terms for various candidates, so I'm sure he has more of a sense of the game this time.

Who knows? That's why we have a campaign, I guess ...


by BriVT on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 12:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

A couple inaccuracies or exaggerations in your comment, I think.

First,Clark did not campaign "exclusively" in NH.  You make it sound like, since he had spent every waking hour there and 3rd was the best he could do, he really must not had much going for him.  In fact, Clark had been in a number of states, and done a whole tour through the South in late Dec/early Jan.  Most people expected Kerry and Edwards to be done by mini-super Tuesday, and Clark was laying the ground work to battle with Dean and Gephardt over the South.

Second, Edwards got a helluva boost out of Iowa.  If I recall correctly, he was under 5% in NH before, and he jumped up to finish with 12%.  Until Iowa, Clark was right on Dean's heels in NH.  If Dean or Gephardt had won Iowa, as everyone expected, Clark would have finished second easy, and that's all he needed to roll thru the next set of states, most of which he came in second anyway.

A third point, not directed at anyone in particular, is that we have to remember that NV will be sandwiched in between Iowa and NH this time.  I think it'll play a big role in how NH and the following states shake out.  And I see NV as very Clark-friendly.  Richardson too perhaps, but the only NV poll I've seen so far has Clark leading Richardson by 3 pts, and given the relative name recognition, that's pretty good.


by hf jai on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 03:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This storyline suggests that the answer is ... (none / 0)

The media driven surge out of Iowa was unique to date in Democratic Primary politics, usually Iowa has been important, but New Hampshire had really been the first main event  Not in 2004.  Maybe because we are in the era of reality TV now and every even is a potential entertainment drama, but Iowa got major coverage last time, and that was more valuable to Kerry and Edwards than a few more weeks of campaigning in New Hampshire after having campaigned there already for a year could ever possibly have been.  

Remember, Clark started campaigning nation wide in October.  How many House meetings had Edwards already held in NH before Clark even entered? But the real proof is with John Kerry.  He was dropping fast in NH while campaigning there, and so he left NH to concentrate on Iowa.  With his unexpected victory there (like Edward's unexpected 2nd place finish there), Kerry surged in New Hampshire.  I think concentrating on Iowa helped Kerry and Edwards, and there numbers in NH went up becasue they were seen as the winners in Iowa, which did Clark no good at lall.

In sum though, I find most of your comment fair and reasonable.  Time will tell.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 11:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards will outlast Sen. Clinton and (none / 0)

Wouldn't want to underestimate a populist Mike Huckabee coming out of nowhere.  He is one helluva' preacher and those folks are looking for some faith.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 04:47:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards will outlast Sen. Clinton and (none / 0)

Edward's advantage in Iowa will disappear and Obama will trump Hillary in a hard fought contest.  

Gingrich and Brownback duke it out for the GOP with Sam taking the crown... The Obama/Richardson ticket takes down the Brownback/Huckabee ticket in a 55-45 election.


by yitbos96bb on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

God. Sam Brownback. That guy (none / 0)

is frightening.

But he's going to have significant backing and plenty of cash.

I think that just makes him MORE frightening.

The GOP field for 08 is really yucky.


by HumOliver on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 03:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God. Sam Brownback. That guy (none / 0)

Well he is the only anti escalation republican... His Protestant Christian Roots will make hom the wingnut choice over Mormon Romney.  He emerges as the anti guiliani and McCain.  I see a lot in him that the wing nuts wqill like.


by yitbos96bb on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 04:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God. Sam Brownback. That guy (none / 0)

Not so sure. While authentic on abortion and anti-gay, Brownback is for "amnesty" for those nasty illegals and hates our troops.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 05:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Wes Clark- I also predict that Netroots (3.00 / 1)

If Clark enters the race, he will be the darkhorse. He will emerge as the likely Anti-Hillary alternative.

I will also go further by predicting that majority of the netroots community including prominent figures in Kos & Mydd will eventually rally around Wes Clark.

Why all this big Clark predicitions?

One, Clark will be the Most Acceptable candidate for the Huge Anti-War segment within the Democratic party. His Anti-War record will be the common & uniting factor for his supporters.

He was publicly against this War from the very beginning. He was on Cable & National TV challenging Colin Powell's presentation at the U.N. every single day leading up the war.

Two,his Southern Heritage, 4 Star General & Vietnam Vet hero status will surely elevate him to the "Very Electable" Column.

Three, He is one Highly Intelligent person who has vastly improved in his political skills from his 2004 experience.

Four, he will have the Strongest Natioaal Security background among all candidates.

Five, he will easily attract a Huge Mix of Progressives & Moderate who will unite behind him.

Wes Clark will be in a unique position as being acceptable to both Left & Center Democrats.

Run Wes Run!            


by livyoga on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 02:22:16 AM EST

Re: Its Wes Clark- I also predict that Netroots (none / 0)

I would love to see General Clark get some oxygen in this race.  Personally I think Senator Obama has broader appeal, outside of the netroots, but Clark could add another dimension to the race.

I think it would be good for all concerned if he ran.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 04:50:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

basically have to come out (none / 0)

for gay marriage to get MSM coverage if you are not Obama or Hillary..


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 08:23:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: basically have to come out (none / 0)

I disagree... MSM is focusing on Obama and HRC, but Edwards is getting a lot of focus too... HRC is getting the most this week due to her recent announcement... Obama will get a lot of press come Feb 10.  But as long as Edwards leads in Iowa, he will be right up their in the MSM frontrunners... if he slips, then he will fall out in favor of the first black president vs the first woman president who was a first lady and is loved by some and despised by others stories the MSM wants and love.  


by yitbos96bb on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (none / 0)

I think Vilsack will rise once we learn more about him relative to the other candidates. He won't rise -far-, but he'd make a great vice-presidential candidate.


by Alikchi on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 02:34:35 AM EST

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (3.00 / 1)

What about Richardson?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 04:51:42 AM EST

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (3.00 / 1)

I think he's still very much an unknown. He has a lot of credit from the past, but his stances on the current issues are basically unknown to most Democrats. We'll see how he does in the debates - if he's articulate in his positions, he'll do well.


by Alikchi on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 07:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (none / 0)

Sort of building on the above ...

I think Richardson has the background and experience to get folks to listen to him with some credulity. But, he needs to say something good while they're listening. Just having the background isn't enough. So far, he has the scaffolding to do that (his issue mix is pretty good), but it's too early to see if he will.

He has a path, but he needs to seize it.


by BriVT on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 11:44:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (none / 0)

I think he has the best chance, but won't be able too... I do think he may be the VP choice of an Edwards or Obama.


by yitbos96bb on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (none / 0)

On the Republican side I wouldn't overlook the potential of Ron Paul to stick out the race until the end and emerge as the main rival to whomever emerges as the Neocon/Religious Right choice.  There is no way he will win the nomination of course, the Republican party apparatus has the deck stacked to ensure this (and you can talk to any Buchanan delegates from 1996 or anyone who didn't support Bush in 2000 to understand just how ugly this gets) but he could do a great deal to put the other candidates on the spot in debates and at the convention, and could even create an environment in which Republicans against the war are empowered to speak out and mobilize.  We saw this in 2004 when Dean and Kucinich energized a lot of antiwar sentinent in the Democratic Party and empowered people to speak out who were hesitant to before.

On the Democratic side, I don't really think of Edwards or Clark as dark horses - they're major candidates.  Of the dark horses: I don't see any potential from Dodd, Biden, Richardson, or Vilsack unless they take steps to distinguish themselves from the pack in some fashion, in the way Dean did in 2004.  If one of them does this in a way that speaks to one or more issues important to grassroots Democrats that is otherwise being ignored, they can emerge as a major contender.  I don't see Kucinich or Gravel emerging as potential nominees but they will be needed voices of conscience.  I'm afraid Mike Gravel is going to get the Larry Agran treatment from the party and media, and as a matter of principle we cannot let this happen and should ensure he is included in debates and media coverage.  For most likely to emerge as the main non-Hillary, non-Obama candidate I'm putting my money on Edwards right now, because of his strong support among organized labor.


by Old Yeller on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 07:29:59 AM EST

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (3.00 / 0)

I think Clark entering the contest would be very good for Hillary and very bad for Edwards.

Remember the rumors in 2004 that Clark was a "stalking horse" for Clinton?  In other words, that Clark was running as a proxy for Clinton, who would enter at the last minute and suck all the oxygen out of the room.

There are 10 declared/expected to declare candidates so far.  That's a huge field.  And with so many favorite sons and niche candidates, it will be difficult for a true anti-Hillary to get traction.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 07:49:03 AM EST

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (3.00 / 1)

Tend to agree. In a sense the anti-HRC candidate needs to be determined prior to the primaries starting or at the very latest after New Hampshire, if she is to be defeated.

Edwards must be desperate for Clark not to enter the race. And indeed Gore for that matter. The other candidates I suspect will be less of a factor once the primaries begin. They are so out of their depth that few people are going to be tempted to vote for a total non-starter who is polling under 5% come Jan 2008.


by kundalini on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 08:33:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's not necessarily true ... especially if ... (none / 0)

... California and some other big states move to earlier primaries.

The problem for a front-runner with having big states with early primaries when the field is still large and not clearly defined, is that it is very easy to win a Pyrrhic victory, were you finish in first place by plurality, but with so many delegates scattered among so many other candidates that it becomes harder to clinch the nomination before the convention.

That is, you could "win" California by taking 30% of California's delegates ... but that is 70% of a very big delegation that is backing someone else.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not necessarily true ... especially if (none / 0)

California will move its primary up.  The major players are all referring to it as a done deal.


by juls on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 04:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (3.00 / 1)

I remember the Clinton proxy rumor speculation. It made for entertaining political press, the only problem was that it was wrong.

In the Nevada speech that Clark just gave, which I link to elsewhere in a comment, Clark flatly states:  "I believe in Howard Dean's 50 State Strategy."  Last time that I checked, Hillary Clinton's campaign staff was disparaging of Howard Dean's 50 State strategy.  That's because it won't work for Hillary Clinton, but it will work for Wes Clark.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:23:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

agree with this (none / 0)

the only person who could run who'd take votes from Hillary is sharpton.,

everyone else splits the ABH vote.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 08:25:05 AM EST

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (none / 0)

Clark is the 2nd tier candidate with the most potential to rise. Clearly he has a lot of passionate support amongst the netroots and a credible case can be made that he would attract independents and moderate conservatives by virtue of his military background.

The problem he will have is being taken seriously as a potential democratic nominee. For all his military gravitas, I'm not convinced that automatically translates into political gravitas. While the netroots prefers outsiders, the wider democratic party tends to back establishment candidates most of the time.

If he can get up above 10% then he's a serious contender and he'll be able to make his case to an audience that is listening. Getting from 5% to 10% could be tough in the current environment. I can't see him taking many votes off HRC so he's going to have to persuade undecideds and perhaps Gore supporters and a few Edwards fans.


by kundalini on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 08:26:30 AM EST

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (none / 0)

Clark can definately take soft votes away from Hillary Clinton, easier than many of the other candidates, because Wes Clark is perceived as National Democrat with gravitas and the ability to take on the tough problems in the world. Some of Hillary Clinton's soft support drifts toward her exactly for those reasons, but they aren't convinced that she can win a General Election. That leaves an opening for Clark.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Richardson (none / 0)

I just love this guy, politically of course.

He's bright, articulate and has the resume.  He's Hispanic.  What's not to like?


by dataguy on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 09:02:24 AM EST

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

He lied on his resume over a long period of time, about something ridiculous, and then had a ridiculous explanation when called on it. That's troubling, hard to convince myself that it's not symptomatic.


by mmiddle on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 12:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

geez I hope not Richardson

I see a number of problems with him.  He's pro-Animal Rights, which means weak on (human) civil rights.  

Not a good direction for Democrats.

details:  www.bluedogstate.com


by Bluedogstate on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:13:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What the hell? (none / 0)

umm, I hope that animal rights thing was sarcasm.

But anyway, he has a fantastic resume.  UN ambassador, Secretary of Energy, Congressman, and Governor.  And Governors are much better at getting elected president than senators.


by Terryus on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 07:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What the hell? (none / 0)

Wen Ho Lee.


by sayhar on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What the hell? (none / 0)

Richardson IS an animal rights candidate.

I wish it were sarcasm, but its not.

details:  www.bluedogstate.com

I'd like to know where he stands on civil rights, personally.  His "impressive" resume looks kinda shaky on what used to be bedrock Democratic Party territory.


by Bluedogstate on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 09:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson (none / 0)

I think you mean the baseball draft thing ... it's not a ridiculous thing. It seems silly in today's ESPN world, but I found out about this story a little while ago, and being a baseball fan ... found it fascinating.

Back in the mid-60s, the baseball draft wasn't the event of drafts these days. It was just starting (1965 was the first) and was pretty different than today. Teams had long lists of players, and they went on and on in the draft until every team passed. There were 813 players picked in the first draft! And baseball didn't release the names of who got drafted beyond the first round for months sometimes, so combine that with the chaotic nature of things, and ... well, in the first years, no one was clued in to what happened, outside the league and the personnel directors of the teams.

A scout for one team (Kansas City A's?) told Richardson they had him on their draft list, even though he was planning on college. Then Richardson was pitching in the Cape Cod League and read his bio in the program, which said he had been drafted by that team. So ... he assumed he was. But he was dedicated to college, later had shoulder trouble and never pitched again.

But, the story that he was drafted stuck with him ... he only found out recently that it almost surely never happened, that the team in question decided to quit on the draft before they got to his name (not unusual, the thing would go on for days and days).

It's not that big a deal, in the end ... it only sounds ridiculous if you think of "the draft" in a modern sense ... but it's a tricky little story for him to deal with ... I've actually never seen him deal with it, so I don't know how he does.


by BriVT on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can see Richardson on the Dem side ... (none / 0)

but Brownback on the GOP side?  Brownback ain't gonna win diddly.  The guy to watch out for is the other man from Hope ... former Governor Mike Huckabee.  

The man knows how to talk to people.  I'm a progressive Dem, and he made chills go up my spine with his rhetoric.  He's another Ronald Reagan in the making.  

The DNC better start looking up the skeletons in Huckabee's closet, because I think they're need 'em.


"I've been a critic of NAFTA, CAFTA, and I'll be a critic of SHAFTA."
by Ryno on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 11:39:16 PM EST

Re: Which 2008 Dark Horse Is Most Likely to Rise? (none / 0)

Richardson and Clark are the obvious dark horse possibilities on the Democratic side.  Both have strong leadership credentials and presidential-quality resumes that really, the top three candidates lack.  I don't see Dodd, Vilsack, Biden, Gravel, or Kucinich having much upside.

On the Republican side, the immigration issue could help a dark horse candidate rise, although those on the "right" side of it are little known -- Tancredo, Hunter, Paul, and Gilmore.  My bet would be on Gilmore, as a former governor.  Huckabee and Brownback won't have the gas to catch Romney, McCain, and Giuliani, largely due to this issue.  Hagel is seen as a traitor to the Republican base, and his best bet would be to run as independent, for Unity08.


by Lex on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 12:40:45 PM EST


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