What A Race

What would a Sunday be without a poll? Throw in a graphic so I don't have to bother with 'pre' tags and it makes for a wonderful political junkie moment. McClatchy puts up the poll details as well. Since it's a MOE of 5-6% for these polls, they are not that reliable an indicator for the sub-groups, but it's still interesting to see, so thanks go to McClatchy & Mason Dixon for following Pollster.com's earlier request. Let's go state by state:

Iowa: For Democrats, Bill Clinton's favorables are highest, lol, Edwards & Obama come up next. Clinton relies heavily upon voters about 50 years of age, Obama younger, with Clinton & Edwards doing better among Unions than Omama. Only 11% of Democrats are undecided. Obama/Clinton/Edwards are about tied in being the second choice of those who support Richardson/Biden/Dodd/Kucinich. Obama is the 'change' candidate, Clinton is the 'experience' candidate, Edwards the 'honest' candidate. Healthcare is as big an issue as Iraq (this is new but plausible). Edwards the lead among those that call for getting out of Iraq immediately, Clinton's ran the most negative campaign. Among Republicans, Bush's favorables are still the highest, but it's all Huckabee. High 30's to 40's across the board among the sup-groups. Thompson is in 3rd-- he'll be the one, good lobbyist that he is, that will carry water for attacking Huckabee in Iowa. Only 7% among the GOP voters rank 'who can win' as critical. Only 57% among the GOP are hardliners on illegal immigration-- they are just the loudest.

New Hampshire: Obama gets the highest favorable rating, and Clinton's lead is just 3 percent. The assumption is that if this is a two-person race in Nh -if Edwards doesn't win Iowa- that it's going to help Obama; that it really is in Clinton's best interest, if she can't, that Edwards wins in Iowa. This poll shows just the opposite-- that in NH, Edwards voters flock more heavily to Clinton in a two-way race. But if it's Obama that loses out in Iowa, Edwards benefits more than Clinton. Obama is strongest among Independents, which could matter a lot, depending on the GOP race. Obama has a much stronger anti-iraq vote in NH than he does in Iowa. Among Republicans, NH is going to be Romney's firewall, but if evangelicals and social conservatives, their 'values' voters, there peel away to Huckabee following Iowa, that's a big problem for Romney. There's a similar thing at work between Giuliani and McCain among the struggle for neocons. This could turn into a 4-way race that anyone could win. The media is already painting NH as the real Republican contest, and if Romney starts to lower expectation in Iowa, it will be. Can Thompson place 3rd in Iowa and 6th in NH and still compete in South Carolina?

Nevada (& Michigan): In some ways, Nevada is Clinton's firewall, and she's lead strongly there from the beginning, but the lead is lowered in this poll to 8% over Obama. It's plausible that Iowa doesn't matter as much as NH does this time. Is 3 days enough time for a narrative to maximize in the media before the NH results are out? Probably not, especially in comparison to the 11 days following NH before Nevada votes. Edwards or Obama may slip in a very slight win in Iowa, but it won't matter in the narrative if Clinton wins NH. After NH, if Clinton win there, we have 11 days to watch the media sit on it, and a win by Clinton in Michigan to pass the time (and boost her delegate count). If Huckabee wins in Michigan, Romney is finished. Republicans are pretty much ignoring Nevada, though Giuliani is ahead there now, and a win there would not give him a boost heading into South Carolina & Florida.

South Carolina (& Florida): For Dems, South Carolina is the closest to a re-enactment of Iowa among the early states, and a 3-way race, but Edwards has a real weakness among black voters. Iraq is not as important an issue in SC, and issues aside, SC appears to really boil down to favoring whomever has the most momentum heading into the state. For Republicans, South Carolina is going to be as important a state as it was in 2000, maybe even moreso It's on the same day of the Nevada caucus, which probably lessens the latter's day-after storyline in the media. If Huckabee finishes off Romney in MI the week previously, he could finish off Thompson in SC. Florida is 3 days after South Carolina, and it's Giuliani's firewall state. As for Florida and the Democrats, let me just posit that Clinton is losing IA, NH, and SC to Obama (or Edwards). What's to stop her from making Florida a big deal instead of South Carolina? That would be ruthless politics, as it would also signal that she's also defying the DNC's stupid reaction to Florida. There's no way in hell that Florida's going to be denied delegates at the convention. The other candidates already made a stupid mistake in ceding MI (and it's delegate count) to Clinton. Heading into December 4th, with just default wins in MI & FL, and NV, Clinton could be ahead on the all-important delegate count, despite losing contests in IA, NH, and SC.

OK, time to go put up the Christmas tree. I know there's a lot of high-running emotions out there among the candidate supporters, but the name-calling is something that won't be tolerated. I'm happy to not be sidelined this time around by having to work for one candidate or the other, and I really don't think much of bloggers whom have an opinion, but are afraid of speaking out because they want to seem 'above it all' or don't want to piss off one clan or the other. I don't back down from it, and have participated in enough hard-hitting Democratic primaries to have learned that even though it seems we are enemies one day, to see as allies the next. Give it another month or two, and we'll all be on the same team. Till then...

Update [2007-12-9 14:42:24 by Jerome Armstrong]: Noting that "in June, the Mason-Dixon poll had Hillary losing by 9 points in June, so this actually shows Hillary's margin up by 12 points from their last poll", among other supportive numbers, Mark Penn blogs that nothing much has changed.



Display:


Re: What A Race (2.00 / 1)

In all 3 polls , the respondents say Hillary Clinton has run the most negative campaign .

Isn't that bizarrre ?

That is either the power of the msm to shape the narrative or just the steoreotype of her being a hard nosed campaigner.

That is the weirdest statistic to me .


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:22:28 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

In June, Mason Dixon had hillary at 22%.....Edwards at 21%.....and Obama at 18%.  Obama has gained the most since the last Mason Dixon poll of Iowa.


by allmiview on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 03:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

This isn't that strange.  The turning point of the election was that foreign policy question during the YouTube debate.  She couldn't let the difference speak for itself and delivered what most people see as the first attack of the campaign, calling Obama naive and inexperienced.  She probably could have gotten away with inexperienced but the naive part crossed the line.  It was a dumb move anyway since it played into his strength of wanting to make this a change election.  But this was the first shot, the media was waiting for it, and first impressions are often lasting impressions.


by Piuma on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 03:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

South Carolina (none / 0)

What's bizarre is the SC numbers. Other polls have Biden at 10, 6, and 6. My guess is 10 and 2 are outliers and his numbers are around 6-7.


Ever heard of a Blue Moose Democrat?
by Nathan Empsall on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 03:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Or the fact that she pretty much HAS run the dirti... I mean most negative campaign.  She's been taking pot shots since April at both Obama and Edwards.  THEY finally started hitting back, something they should have done at the start when she spun the bullshit experience myth.  Total BS, but they let the narrative take hold and the myth lives as the polls show.  Big mistake by both men.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:55:58 PM EST
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Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Almost fatal, and it assured her a free ride through most of the year.  Ironically though, that wearisome inevitability and the consequent 'business-as-usual' culture of her campaign are among her current burdens.  And the 'naive and irresponsible' thing with Obama was always risky and may yet backfire.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 06:37:21 PM EST
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Re: What A Race (none / 0)

by the way Jerome , do you think the dmr would be polling this week to guage the oprah effect or would they wait for just one last poll to come out right before the caucuses i.e. final days of the year.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:25:14 PM EST

I Notice (none / 0)

I Notice Hillary's "Firewall" state keeps changing. If anyone is wondering why it will change again, here's a clue.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community /post_group/ObamaHQ/CN2s

C YA L8TR !


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:37:34 PM EST

36,426 Phone Bank! (2.00 / 1)


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Notice (none / 0)

What specifically are we looking for?


by yitbos96bb on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:53:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

It's [i]Hillary[/i] Clinton in Iowa.  I have a feeling this is going to be a Freudian slip that'll be made all year.


by alkatt on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:39:04 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Actually, re-reading this, I see the joke you were trying to make.  sigh Never mind.


by alkatt on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:40:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

trying, lol.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (2.00 / 1)

Is Omama a joke too?


by dblhelix on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Obama's rising, that's for sure, but Clinton hasn't collapsed. It's gone from a blow-out to an actual race. There are plausible scenarios in which Obama, Clinton, or Edwards can win this thing.

Maybe it'll still be a race come February 5th.


by Kal on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:40:22 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

That's been my argument for the last few weeks. I just bet someone who is certain clinton would win that there is actually becoming closer to a 1/3 chance she will win because it will come down to which strategy pans out.


by bruh21 on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

That's the problem with trying to predict any election, let alone the Iowa caucus. There are just so few historical examples that you can't make any statistically-sound predictions.

Does the person with the most reports of having the best organization win? Does the person who is rising win? The person who has been in the lead all year?

It's impossible to say with any certainty.


by Kal on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

huckabee dude. what happened?


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:42:55 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

That evangelical email list of 15 million people is what happened.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

exactly. how are they almost better than us at using the internet?!? seriously.


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

The religious nutcases , they would prefer to have a real religious freak as president.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Well Duh!  ;-)


by yitbos96bb on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (2.00 / 1)

ARG Polled Nevada in the same time period and came up with different results .

So which is right ?

Clinton 37

Obama   12

Edwards  8

Dec 1- 6

Mason Dixon/msnbc : Dec 3 - 6 .


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:55:22 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Both polls appear to use a simple self-declaration as their screen for "likely caucus-goers." That should make everyone skeptical about how well the sample reflects caucus-day electorate.


by desmoulins on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:35:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

I really don't believe anyone knows how to poll NV, it's pretty tough.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

You know, given that he's not actually a dirty furriner and that we're not transliterating his name, it would be nice if our elite news agencies could spell "Barack" right.


by aaronetc on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 01:57:13 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Hey, give them a break! At least they didn't spell his last name with an "S", right? [/snark]


by Kal on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (2.00 / 0)

It would be nice too if people here stopped referring to him dirisively as "Barry." There's no basis for that sort of disrespect.


by desmoulins on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Cupla general comments on NV.

1. Edwards remains much less well known -- if you look at the full results of the NV survey, all three have about the same % of disapproval (17-18) and close to the same (about 80%) name ID. but Edwards has much more "neutral" response than Obama or Clinton. Clearly, for our side, the need is to get the message out.

2. The gender breakdown is stunning. Clinton actually has only a 6% gender gap; 36% support among women, 30% among men. Obama runs 10 points ahead among women than among men. (He gets 30% support among women, 20% among men.) Richardson is the opposite, 16% among men, 6% among women. Thats hard to explain.


by desmoulins on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:41:17 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Too small of a sample to know for sure. I really find it hard to believe in the sample's of NV for the caucus without knowing what their screen for likely voter is. I'd want Dems that vote in special, off-year elections.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Even then (none / 0)

You probably get some first timers due to it being the first time the results aren't moot, and still very competitive. OTOH, some of these first timers may underestimate the time commitment and not stick around past the first ballot. And Iowa/NH will inspire/disillusion different candidate's supporters.

I did some research into polling NV, but chickened out decided not to.


Texas Economics
by IVR Polls on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 04:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Even then (none / 0)

Yea, there's probably more than the usual 25% or so first timers for this, that you wouldn't be able to identify.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 06:16:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Yeah, but their last poll was taken a long time ago. It's impossible to tell if Hillary is going up or down at this moment.

I'm hoping DMR does another poll, that would be great.


by Progressive America on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 02:51:22 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Jerome -- I have to give you props for calling Huckabee's rise in Iowa. I thought he'd ultimately get a strong second, but as the polls make clear: Huckabee is going to win the Iowa caucuses (unless Romney or Thompson unleash the world's greatest attack ad against him). You called it; you should take a bow.

Still not sure that Huckabee's going to win the GOP nomination, but two things are apparent:(1) if/when Huckabee wins Iowa, Romney's finished; (2) if Giuliani doesn't find a way to buy himself some momentum before New Hampshire, the GOP will be nominating Huckabee in September.


by blueflorida on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 03:17:50 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Thanks. I don't think Huckabee's win will finish off Romney in IA. And even though I can't imagine Romney would be able to survive NH, if Romney gets 2nd there too, and so places in the top 2 in NH & IA, it's tough to say he's out of the race-- there's a lot of others that are going to get pushed out first. MI though, by that time Romney would seem to have to win for sure. But if Romney falls to 3rd or 4th in IA or NH, he's done even before MI.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 06:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

I don't believe that only 11% of Iowa Dems are undecided but clearly the outcome will depend on which candidate gets the caucus vote out best and expands the small universe of Iowa Caucus voters.


by howardpark on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 03:24:20 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

I am sure that either Obama or Edwards will contest any Michigan or Florida delegate seating if either of them beat Clinton in the earlier states and thereafter. And they will have a case. I imagine a seating will occur because they wouldn't want empty seats at the convention but not for Clinton.

Mary Stylianopoulos


by 12345 on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 03:44:10 PM EST

Re: What A Race (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.  I have to believe they won't have delegates designated for Michigan or Florida until the nomination is wrapped up by whomever wins.  I've said it before, but I think whoever wins California on February 5th will be the nominee.


A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy. - Teddy Roosevelt
by minvis on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 04:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Maybe... New York and Illinois pretty come close to cancelling each other out... Leaving the big prize.  It will be interesting to see who has the momentum going into Feb 5.  

If Hillary wins Iowa, I think its probably over unless someone pulls off a NH Miracle.  If she wins NH and Iowa, its over academically although Edwards and Obama and the rest will stay in until Feb 5 (just in case they can produce a hail mary) SC firewall or not, if Hillary wins Iowa and NH, Obama won't beat her in SC... it seems like the vast majority of AA voters could back either one and while softly support one or the other will hard back the candidate with the momentum.  

Now another candidate taking NH and Iowa, then it gets interesting and if the polls are accurate and we are this close, an Iowa win by Obama probably wins him NH and SC, possibly Nevada... at that point its over.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

an Iowa win by Obama probably wins him NH and SC, possibly Nevada... at that point its over.

I don't think so. I certainly don't believe that if Clinton takes MI and FL, that it's over.

The delegates are academic, it's the win that counts, because they will be seated. There's no way in hell that the Democratic Party is going to tell Florida and Michigan that they don't count. Hell no.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 06:23:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

I agree.  Michigan and Florida is all Hillary needs to stay viable until February 5.  Anything beyond that is gravy.  And, on February 5, she has a lock on the second largest state of the day (New York) and the fourth largest state of the day (New Jersey) and is a prohibitive favor in the largest state (California).  Let's thrown in Arkansas for good measure.  She comes out a big winner.


by markjay on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 12:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

As usual, I'll try (and likely fail) to put too much stock in any single set of polls. All I'll say is I do notice the number of undecideds is rather large compared with other polls. I also can't believe Edwards is only at 10% in NH--that seems fishy.

But who knows...


by OrangeFur on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 04:42:31 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

10% seems low, but I haven't seen him poll too well in NH regardless.  Now an Iowa win will change that of course... an Iowa loss might change the numbers too although not in a good way.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Wait, Did Michigan get their delegates back?  Unless you are referring to undecided Superdelegates, how would Michigan help increase her delegate count?  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:41:34 PM EST

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

no way in hell Mich or Fla gets thier delagetes back before the nominee is all but decided.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:57:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

MI has delegates, and they will count, regardless of what the DNC now has said, that's not permanent and I will bet you that Clinton counts them (and the press too). I will.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 06:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

you are not the press Jerome and races where no one is opposed are held in Iraq and the soviet union not the united states.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 10:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Please name one state in which no one is opposed.  Guess what?  You can't.  Because there aren't any.


by markjay on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 12:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What A Race (none / 0)

Am I wrong to think that Huckabee's strong showing is actually a threat to Obama in NH among independents?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:48:45 PM EST

Re: What A Race (2.00 / 1)

I just do not think indys in NH will gravitate to a southern preacher.. McCain is the bigger threat to Obama's indy dominance. or paul.


by hawkjt on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 05:54:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the 2/5 states (none / 0)

How solid is Hillary's firewall?  She still has substantial leads in all of the February 5 states.

Could this go all the way to June 3?  It might be good for the Democrats to get this right and have
a drawn-out nomination battle which will strengthen the nominee--as long as doesn't get too nasty.


by mikelow1885 on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 06:54:10 PM EST

Re: the 2/5 states (none / 0)

what happens to edward's decision to use matching funds if he wins iowa, places 2nd in nh (to clinton, lets say), and keeps it close after that. By the time june rolled around, would he have any $?


by melandell on Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 08:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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