Hillary vs Huckabee

by Shaun Appleby, Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:14:13 AM EST

It's interesting to note that the one consistent theme (shhh) I have heard here on the subject of Huckabee as a potential general election candidate has been that he would be possibly our toughest competition and those who hold that view have been right for the longest about Huckabee.  Let us speak no more of it.  We are now in an exhilaratingly tight race for possibly the single most import primary in the Democratic calendar and the most compelling political story, one with which our candidates are now competing for coverage, is the sudden rise of you-know-who.

Not much discussion of that among our various candidates.  Then something MollieBradford said got me thinking:


...the party went after Dean to stop his campaign. Yes, that includes Bill Clinton who threw Clark in to the mix.
But that's not going to happen this time.  It's not 2004, the dynamics are all different.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 09:15:03 AM EADT

The party went after Dean to stop his campaign.  That's true.  But that's not going to happen this time?  Why did they do that to Dean again?  Hmm...?  Because there were serious concerns that he could win the nomination and lose the election, that's why.  And people acted on them.  And quickly, too.  It's not 2004, the dynamics are all different.  Well, yes... and no.  

Let me test this thesis with you all.  If the notion that Hillary, particularly, would have trouble in the general election against Mike Huckabee is in any way current within the party then she has a problem.  And while the dynamics are all different the same deal is on everyone's mind.  Is Hillary prepared to take on Giuliani?  Like the Russians were at Kursk.  Romney, McCain, etc  You bet.  Huckabee?  Hmm...

What's the polling?  Does she do worse against Huckabee than other Republicans in match-ups?  Her hard times have been almost exactly contemporary with Huckabee's meteoric rise.  ¿Que pasa?  I'm just putting this out there, that Huckabee's rise is adding to Hillary's troubles, somehow, somewhere.  And just to assuage the Hillary supporters who will abuse me I will admit it, Hillary has been getting a bad trot in the media lately.  Not a fair shake at all.  Things have not been going her way.  I wonder why?




Tags: hillary clinton, huckabee, iowa, election 2008 (all tags)

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Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

i am doing a lot of head scratching with this diary

i personally do not believe huckabee is a threat to any democrat.

Now if you pair up Hillary Clinton vs. John Mccain , therein lies the problem.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:20:04 AM EST

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

It is a stretch to try and tie huckabees fate to clinton .

What is happening to huckabee is a combination of iowa conservatives coalescing around him and the power of the msm.

Same with Clinton iowa giving her problems and the power of the msm to change the story line either by magnifying her campaigns missteps or creating one.

Their fates cross path only in that sense.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:23:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

No no, I agree with you that it in no way is a response to Hillary falling. But Huckabee is still a very dangerous person


by SocialDem on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

"i personally do not believe huckabee is a threat to any democrat."

You are wrong. I have been saying this for since summer. Huckabee is the dark horse candidate who has an actual chance of winning this. Everyone laughed at me even my Republican friends that he can win the nomination. And now look, he is surging. He is very likable and folksy. Much like Bush.  People see past his crazy social positions because he is light on entitlements and he may fool enough independents just like Bush did in 2000.


by SocialDem on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

"i personally do not believe huckabee is a threat to any democrat."

You are wrong. I have been saying this for since summer. Huckabee is the dark horse candidate who has an actual chance of winning this. Everyone laughed at me even my Republican friends that he can win the nomination. And now look, he is surging. He is very likable and folksy. Much like Bush.  People see past his crazy social positions because he is light on entitlements and he may fool enough independents just like Bush did in 2000.


by SocialDem on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:26:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

agreed, however all of a sudden huckabee is dare i say it... kinda the frontrunner. winning in Iowa and and second nationally?!? (what the fuck happened by the way, all of a sudden he is beating romney and thompson nation wide).

he is scary as hell, the man is quick witted. he is a great extemporaneous speaker who has a populist appeal.

that sounds bad., thank god for todays rapist story (although that statement is evil)


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:34:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

What happened is that the Jesus Freaks had enough of being ignored by the Republican party. They would vote for Osama Bin Laden if he came out strong enough against abortion, gays, evolution, and Mexicans. They tried to throw in with Fred Thompson until they found out he had died four years ago. The only option left is the TV Preacher. They sure as hell ain't gonna vote for gay-loving abortionist from New York City or a Mormon cult leader.

The TV preacher hasn't set foot in Iowa in over a month. This has nothing to do with him per se. It's an intra-party jihad.

Don't worry. Mainstream Republicans aren't going to let the TV preacher get the nomination anymore than mainstream Democrats would nominate Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich, or John Edwards.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:48:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

i'll go edwards v. huckabee any day.


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 11:00:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

I find it inconceivable that Huckabee would defeat Hillary.  I don't think he would even beat her in Arkansas.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:21:33 AM EST

Ahem... (2.00 / 1)

Zogby National General Election Match-ups 11 Nov 07:

     Huckabee 44%, Clinton 39%
      Thompson 44%, Clinton 40%
      McCain 42%, Clinton 38%
      Giuliani 43%, Clinton 40%
      Romney 43%, Clinton 40%

     Obama 47%, Thompson 40%
      Obama 45%, McCain 38%
      Obama 46%, Huckabee 40%
      Obama 46%, Romney 40%
      Obama 46%, Giuliani 41%

     Edwards 45%, Thompson 42%
      Edwards 44%, Romney 42%
      Edwards 44%, Giuliani 43%
      Edwards 43%, Huckabee 42%
      Edwards 42%, McCain 42%


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:32:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

C'mon Shaun those interactive polls are crap and that has been mentioned several times.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:41:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

You got anything better?  It would have to be fresh.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:49:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How about these Ohio numbers for comparison? (none / 0)

SurveyUSA OH 12/3/07

Clinton (D) 47%, Huckabee (R) 45%
Huckabee (R) 44%, Obama (D) 41%

(http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/12/4/2110 31/701)


by LakersFan on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 02:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

Ahem. Why don't you trot out something other than an internet poll? Good grief.

Here are today's Quinnipiac numbers in three key swing states:

Florida

50% Clinton
35% The TV Preacher

Ohio

45% Clinton
38% The TV Preacher

Pennsylvania

48% Clinton
37% The TV Preacher

The TV preacher's rise is the Jesus Freak wing of the Republican party thumbing their nose at the party. It would be like, god forbid, the Nadarite netroots had enough numbers to nominate Kucinich or Edwards in the Democratic Party.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:44:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

Well, those figures look pretty good for her, how do they compare with Obama's?  Against Huckabee?  

You're not bothering about making friends here anymore, are you?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:53:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (2.00 / 2)

Nope. With friends like the netroots Democrats, who needs enemies?


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

They only did Obama against Rudy.

Obama ties in PA. Wins in Ohio (4%). And gets wiped out in Florida (37% to 45%)

The internals show some serious weaknesses for Obama. He loses the women's vote to Rudy in two of the three states. Weakness with women votes is what killed Kerry.

He also polls poorly among Democrats, attracting less than 75% of Democrats against Rudy in all three states and a shockingly poor 64% of Democrats in Florida.

I'll leave it to you to consider various theories on why Obama is weak against Rudy with females and Reagan Democrats.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:07:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (2.00 / 1)

Please don't.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:14:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

Considering Obama hasn't campaigned much in any of those three states, those numbers aren't too bad.  Rudy has spent a lot of time in Florida and he still has the "9/11 hero" aura here in PA.  Becoming the actual nominee should greatly boost Obama's support amongst Democrats and women.


by Namtrix on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

Actually, a very large chunk of Democratic voters, especially women, will sit on their hands if Obama gets the nomination. He would get clobbered in the general election for reasons that include his lack of experience.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:51:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Women would sit on their hands (none / 0)

in a general election because of his lack of experience?  Huh?  That's the most random theory I've heard.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 05:46:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you may be right... (none / 0)

they aren't reliable voters, anyway.  only hillary is counting on them, ON SPEC.  hillaryland has a theory that women voters will come out THIS TIME -- unlike all the other "years of the woman" where the female vote was boosted only minimally.

but you are absolutely correct.  only hillary is counting on mobilizing people who rarely, if ever, vote.

btw, democrats said the same thing about obama in 2004.  he couldn't appeal to downstate illinois.  only the lakefront liberals would support him.  but now he's criticized because he turned all those negative expectations into tremendous popularity.  unlike hillary, he actually led the state in votes...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 09:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you may be right... (none / 0)

Against Alan Keys.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

when did keyes become a democrat??? (none / 0)

what do you know that i don't about the march primary?

oh, and keyes was a replacement candidate.  do you know why there was a replacement candidate???  your opinion here is not based on facts (not that there's anything wrong with that)...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 03:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

lovely.  The online polls again.

SteveM rightly pointed out that Hillary beats Huckabee's pants off IN ARKANSAS.  The head-to-heads weren't even remotely close in that state.   Therein lies the crux of the issue.

BTW, yesterday's Quinnipiac puts a damper on your thoughts.  Hillary beats all GOP comers in the pivotal states of Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio by healthy margins, with Obama not looking all that great.  That is a major concern, as we MUST win two of these 3 states to have a realistic chance to win the White  House.  Obama shows extremely weak in Florida, also quite weak in Pennsylvania, which must be a major worry to the party establishment at this point.


by georgep on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:46:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

Hey I'm not a polling person, just stirring the pot.  Are there any national match-ups with Republicans which are recent?  I'd love to see 'em and I'm guessing I'm not the only one.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

I gave you the only three states that really matter: Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?Rele aseID=1125


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

Thanks.  Doesn't look like they actually did an Obama/Huckabee match-up.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

Hillary loses to Huckabee in Arkansas in the latest Rasmussen poll.


by Namtrix on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ahem... (none / 0)

But you forgot this very important disclaimer for that poll (emphasis NOT mine):

** Note: This survey used a non-probability sample. Respondants had previously volunteered to be interviewed online.


by LakersFan on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 02:11:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Huckabee loses Arkansas by double digits to Clinton. He's almost as inexperienced as Obama.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:22:59 AM EST

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Rasmussen's recent poll of Arkansas:

Huckabee 48
Clinton 42

She may beat him in Arkansas, but current polling indicates otherwise.


by BDM on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:32:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

You're really seeing Huckabee at his peak in my opinion.  He's had the benefit of a honeymoon, with the negatives still lurking just below the surface.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:38:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Funny, that's exactly what they were saying about Obama a few months back.  And Huckabee doesn't even have any money.  Dean may have shown the way with the Internet but it seems to me Huckabee must have done this over the backyard fence.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:45:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

He's like Grandpa Fred right before he actually got in the race.

People need to remember that some poll numbers are real and some aren't. Some poll numbers represent support for a candidate; some represent a protest against other candidates. Giuliani and Romney still have thirty and forty point leads over Huckabee on the question: which Republican can win in November.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:54:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

A Rasmussen poll released today has him beating Clinton.  He also has much higher approval ratings in the state than she does.


by Namtrix on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:34:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

..the party went after Dean to stop his campaign. Yes, that includes Bill Clinton who threw Clark in to the mix.

hillary supporters don't even see anything wrong with how the clintons gamed the system.
they have ethical blinders on. if the clintons did it, must have been okay.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:32:47 AM EST

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

I think Huckabee would be the most interesting nominee from the Republicans. He might make the race more substantive. The problem for him running against Hillary is that she, being from Arkansas, knows where all his bodies are buried, in some cases literally. All of hers have been excavated.

Obama, given how adept he has been at pumping oppo into the media, would probably also make short work of Huckabee.

I think Edwards would have the toughest time, his heart is not in the nasty stuff and a liberal populist will always lose to a right-wing populist. Us versus them comes more naturally to the right-wing.


by souvarine on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:42:14 AM EST

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

"I think Edwards would have the toughest time, his heart is not in the nasty stuff and a liberal populist will always lose to a right-wing populist. Us versus them comes more naturally to the right-wing."

Yeah but the Republican party has moved so crazy right that being a populist in any sense is seen as being liberal. And a liberal Rethugican will always lose to a Liberal Democrat


by SocialDem on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

I disagree for two reasons:

1. Huckabee is closest to the modern crazy right (evangelicals, as opposed to the old-school Ron Paul crazy right).

2. the Republican party is disciplined, they will show up for their nominee.


by souvarine on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

The Wall Street Republicans aren't showing up for Huckabee. They'll hire G. Gordon Libby or somebody to take him out before they let that happen.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:51:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Wall Street would definitely prefer Hillary to Huckabee.

It has very little to do with her being a "corporate Democrat" and quite a bit to do with fiscal sanity being a necessity for stabilizing the markets.  Wall Street is very nervous about the sustainability of what passes for fiscal policy in Republican circles.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:41:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Of course Wall Street would prefer Hillary to Huckabee but it's for the reason you said it wasn't.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 2)

Here's a proposal.  I won't try to tell you you're clueless about Indonesian bushmen and you won't try to tell me I'm clueless about how people think on Wall Street.  When I say I work there I'm not speaking metaphorically.

Actually, my friend who worked at JP Morgan Chase told me they were steering an awful lot of money to Obama, of all people... but you'll have to come up with your own theories on that one.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 02:19:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Fair enough.  Ha ha.  You got me.  I don't know toast about Wall Street.  They like to back a winner?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 02:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Yep. The last thing they want in a President is "squirrely" and "unpredicatable". That's why they've turned on Bush.

They want someone who understands the basic principles of the economy. If they can get a pro-business conservative, all the better. But, they'll settle for experience and competence.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:59:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

no doubt, wall street likes the clintons' bob rubin, who gave them nafta, and opened the doors to china, at the expense of everyday americans.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:39:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Yes, but Huckabee knows how to fool people.


by SocialDem on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 02:05:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i'd add to that... (none / 0)

2a. republicans are much, much more disciplined on message and will repeat it over and over and over until every voter hears it.

-- and --

3. republicans love to wield power and will do almost anything required to retain it.


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 09:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Ah, so the narrative now is that the 'naive' Obama is a seasoned, effective campaigner?  That's a shift.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

I never bought the idea that Mr. Chicago Rules couldn't play dirty. He signaled that early on with the Geffen interview and his campaign's Lincoln Bedroom shots. Took him a while to land any punches, but he has it together now, and the refs are with him.


by souvarine on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

You really think Obama's campaign put Geffen up to it?  I think it was just payback time from Geffen's point of view.  Nice to know you think Obama is tough.  I actually do too, but perhaps not in the way you're thinking.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Major donors don't talk to the NY Times without the campaign knowing about it long before it is published. Geffen didn't need prompting, but he performed a function for the campaign.


by souvarine on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

I just remember at the time Geffen was being interviewed by Maureen Dowd at the time he made those statements and she was leading the line of questioning into that particular area, quite clearly.  She is cunning.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

Too perfect a set-up. Geffen wanted to dish dirt, MoDo loves dirt dishing, Obama wanted to probe Hillary's defenses. The themes Geffen introduced are what Obama has been running against Hillary since.


by souvarine on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

I like your forensic approach and the timing is right.  But Obama has steered well clear of that Clinton White House junk criticism.  He may challenge her character on issues but not the domestic/personal or business affairs stuff.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

He does. he just sure he does it in a low key non-intrusive way. It's something almost every politician does. He's not the worst offender but even between the lincoln bedroom and "planning for 20 years" jabs he's mentioned plenty of domestic/personal or business affairs stuff.

you're better of saying he doesn't do it as much as he could, and that should be enough. He doesn't have to be saintly you know. It's good enough to just proclaim him more reasonable then the rest.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 08:39:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Of course. Don't forget that the Obama campaign kicked off the year with the 1984 ad. Don't be naive.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:09:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

They did that?  I loved that video, just aesthetically and for the Apple tribute, not to mention, well...  it resonated a bit.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:12:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

i've been thinking about that. if that ad been officially commissioned, they would have waited longer to run it. it was run way too early for it have real impact. that ad would have been perfect to air 4 weeks ago.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

alice palmer could have told you that... (none / 0)

"politics ain't beanbag"...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 09:16:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

any of the republicans will be weighed down with the stench of 8 years of bush lies & incompetence, like an albatross. i dont see any of them standing a chance. with even just a halfway decent game plan, they're each vulnerable to being knocked down.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

A 'wax museum of failure.'


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:13:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

I couldn't disagree more. I think it will be a very tough campaign and it's going to take more than the Democrats have been able to muster in 2000 and 2004 to win the White House.

Don't lose sight of the fact that the Republicans know how to run a brass knuckle national campaign and the DNC/Democratic strategist are mostly weak as water. The DNC doesn't even have a halfway decent microtargeting voter database operation and they are broke.

Clinton had to build her own, which is what the unions and the womens vote organizations used in the 2006 midterms.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:13:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

i didn't say it would be a cake walk, but the headwinds lean in our direction.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:04:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

well, that's the democratic fantasy, anyway... (none / 0)

i keep thinking democrats would learn.  after all, george bush ran as a COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE, on the issue of education.  sure, hard-core dems will see the race as you called it, but most voters won't.  democrats get no credit from the voters by telling them they fscked up last time around.

that you think republicans can't win really shows a lack of imagination.  it's very easy to see how republicans put together a path to victory if hillary is the nominee.  any race that hillary is in is all about her.  not bush.  not bill.  her.  some of us think that's good, some of us think that's dangerous.  but it sure seems to me that republicans are chomping at the bit to run against her...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 09:23:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, that's the democratic fantasy, anyway... (none / 0)

i'm not saying it's sure bet that we'll win, but barring an "event," the winds lean our way. the economy getting shaky, people worried about losing their homes, isn't going to cause people to rush to the right.

it's very easy to see how republicans put together a path to victory if hillary is the nominee.  

we'll cross that path when we get to it. we don't know that it will be her.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:17:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

You guys are so silly. Don't you realize that you have to think about election matchups after BOTH candidates have been trashed?

Huckabee's rise has nothing to do with Huckabee, who is almost as crazy as Ron Paul. It has everything to do with the Jesus Freak wing of the Republican party giving a thumbs down to the rest of their options. Remember when Thompson was inevitable? It's an "anybody but an abortionist or a Mormon" poll number.

The guy doesn't even know what an NIE finding is.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:50:15 AM EST

you are partly right I think (none / 0)

however, take it from a liberal Christian, I'd like the guy but for three things.  He is a social conservative and I am an extreme social liberal. Choice, gay rights and stem cell research are important issues to me. He is not experienced in foreign affairs and his solutions to the problems of the populace are conservative/republican in nature and will not work.
Believe me though, his answers about the bible, religion and who is and is not a Christian were excellent.  If I didn't know him and was not really paying attention (and was not a partisan democrat) I might be tempted to vote for him.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:40:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

The party went after Dean to stop his campaign.  That's true.  But that's not going to happen this time?  Why did they do that to Dean again?  Hmm...?  Because there were serious concerns that he could win the nomination and lose the election, that's why.  And people acted on them.  And quickly, too.  It's not 2004, the dynamics are all different.  Well, yes... and no.

no, the clintons sandbagged dean because they were afraid he did have a chance of winning the general.

if they had numbers that showed dean didn't stand a chance, the clintons wouldn't have bothered putting up road blocks.  

hill & bill were willing to allow the country to suffer another 4 years under bush because they wanted it to be them to win back the reins of power.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:58:03 AM EST

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Ouch.  That's harsh.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

It's basesless and moronic.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 08:40:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

and yet unrefuted.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

It is also unrefuted that there is an invisible intangible pink unicorn that rules the world. this notion is about as likely.

but then again I shouldn't expect anything closely resembling honest thought from you.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

first, you're the barometer of what is normal. now you're the sole judge of who is honest. that some high horse you got there.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

You are a person who can't differentiate between fascistic murderers and people leaving a comment on a site.

You are the person that makes statements without anything to back them up.

The only reason that it looks I'm on a high horse is because you're in the gutter.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

Stop complaining about the Clintons. You should be looking at Robert Gibbs and his Dean/Osama 527 operation.

Plenty of Clinton politicos tried to help both Gore and Kerry. In both cases, the assistance was rejected until it was too late.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:15:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Shrum (none / 0)


by souvarine on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shrum (none / 0)

Yep. And Brazille. And the parade of failed strategists Kerry tore through. Not to mention Gore firing Mark Penn because Penn told him to run on the record of economic growth from the Clinton administration -- surpluses, balanced budgets, job growth, etc.


by hwc on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 02:02:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore won (2.00 / 1)

Gore was right to fire Penn.  He ran as Gore and when he did that is when he started climbing in the polls.  I wouldn't expect Hillary to run as Al Gore and I certainly didn't expect Gore to run as Bill Clinton.  
Gore won for a reason.  Hillary Clinton will win for different reasons.  For all of you to keep making this about what cookie cutter shape all democrats should fit in to in your opinion makes no sense.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 05:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore won (2.00 / 1)

Sure gore should have run as Gore. but it wouldn't have hurted him to point to the good things the democratic white house brought. A whitehouse he was part of. He wouldn't and shouldn't have compromised himself then as there was plenty of positive stuff that would've fitted him and his campaign easily. Bill and Al both had the same sort of ideology as a background.

Not linking himself to the good stuff he agreed with was a missed oppertunity. You do have a point he did win regardless of that though.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 08:49:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore won (2.00 / 1)

Gore talked about the good things all the time.  What he didn't do is drag Clinton around on the campaign trail looking like he was running for VP again.  NO VP does that and with polls showing that Clinton would cost him the vote of independents he did exactly the right thing.  He won because of that superior judgment.  He got more votes even in Florida.  The mistakes made were after the election when we all failed to understand that the courts would not do the right thing and that the media would be complicit in the theft of an election. We should all have been in DC or Florida, in the streets, threatening the hell out of Delay's little brown shirt gang of thugs.  But Gore was too trusting and so were we.
Gore didn't fail, we falied him and ourselves.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

and robert gibbs was tied to.......?

paul begala was caught bragging about bringing dean down. and a clinton staffer was working in concert with sharpton to develop attacks against dean. shawn and mollie already pointed to the clintons bringing in wes clark to act as spoiler. something wes himself admitted to on charlie rose after he closed down his campaign.

re kerry, looked to me like he didn't want to win. he was just biding his time, going through the motions. oh, he enjoyed the attention and press after he was made nominee, but he didn't put up much of a fight.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sigh......Nadercrap as usual (none / 0)

I can't even be bothered, but for one point.  Bill Clinton got involved because he thought Dean couldn't win.  He was wrong.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh......Nadercrap as usual (none / 0)

so you think the clintons aren't power hungry? (shrugs) okay.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh......Nadercrap as usual (none / 0)

just for the record, i didn't begin to sour on the clintons until after the midterms in 2002.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 04:03:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (2.00 / 1)

Huckabee's dangerous because he can keep the evangelicals in his pocket without having to resort to dogwhistle code words.  They just know he's with them and that's enough.  Then he would be able to focus his energy on peeling away enough of the traditional Dem constituencies (like Hispanics) to get over the top.  He's already setting himself up for this with his populist rhetoric.

Also, don't forget: If the Iraq War goes south again, he's free to criticize it all he wants, since he had nothing to do with creating it.  That would leave Hillary (if she were to win the nomination) in the uncomfortable position of having to defend the war--lest she look like a opportunist by criticizing the same war she voted for and strongly supported for years.


by Will Graham on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 07:34:36 AM EST

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

omg, the way that right has been hatemongering against hispanics? even the kinder, gentler huckabee isn't going to be able to cure latinos' disaffection with the right. assuming huck is able to survive his "pardoned a rapist" scandal, which i'm betting he wont.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

He's been through the Dumond thing before.  Twice.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 07:02:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

kerry was swiftboated before. he survived it on a state level, but not on a national one.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 02:47:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Agree it's a perceived weakness and who knows what will happen.  Mitt's tanking fast and Rudy's got his own legal problems.  We'll see.  Expect Rudy to square off against Huckabee shortly.  I thing the blogosphere is missing the point about Huckabee, he's not really a 'policy' candidate.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 03:13:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

If it's Hillary vs. Huckabee and he runs against NAFTA, the Democrats can just go screw because I'm not going to fight that battle.


"If [John Edwards] seems too good to be true, well, so be it; instead, you can pick a candidate who's bad enough to be plausible." - Daily Kos user Drew
by Junior Bug on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 08:43:55 AM EST

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

If NAFTA is your big issue then you should be as happy with Clinton as with Edwards.  Neither one of them is going to get rid of it, just fix it.
But there are other things to consider.  A conservative SCOTUS for the next 30 years is the most important.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary vs Huckabee (none / 0)

Huckabee can be a bit nutty, not in a wingnutty sort of way, but in a strange uncle sort of way.   If you listen to protracted interviews he says some really strange stuff sometimes.  I think he'd have a hard time in the spotlight of an intense general.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 09:19:44 AM EST

Cillizza is on this... (2.00 / 1)

...today.


by horizonr on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 10:43:16 AM EST

I don't think there's a connection (none / 0)

Among the media and the public that doesn't read blogs, I think Huckabee is still seen, at this point anyway, as more of a curiosity than an especially formidable candidate. Even on the political chat shows, he's still talked about more as a spoiler for Romney than someone who could actually get the nomination (I haven't had cable this week, so maybe that's changed in the last few days).

I would guess that what non-political-junkie Democrats have heard about Huckabee so far is:

1)He's doing well in Iowa
2)He's supported by the Christian right
3)He's supported by Chuck Norris
4)He's lost a lot of weight

I don't think any of that adds up to a perception of great general election strength, the way that the "America's mayor" hype made some Dems worry about Giuliani. I'm not saying Huckabee would or wouldn't be a strong candidate against Hillary or anyone else - that's an argument for a different thread; I just think it's too early in Huckabee's life as a national candidate to believe his success is triggering a reaction on our side.


by Shawn on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:35:22 PM EST

I used to be affraid of Huck (none / 0)

I am not any longer.  I don't underestimate him because he is likable to those not paying attention.  He is a populist and a social conservative, a potent combination.
But he is also a hater.  He allowed the loony right wing Clinton haters to suck him in and he let a rapist out of jail just to spite Bill Clinton.  Anyone with such poor judgment is bound to screw up during the GE.  
In fact I think Clinton is the person most likely to kick his ass.  Her brilliance and wonkiness on both foreign and domestic issues will make him look like Elmer Fudd.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:43:05 PM EST


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