A President can't vote "present"

I support Hillary Clinton because, for all of her adult life, she has had the courage to stand up for issues and principles that are the backbone of the Democratic Party. Issues like civil rights, equality, choice, health care, children, and so much more. Against all odds, even when the entire country was against her, she stood up for these issues, even when it meant getting boo'd. Fighting for these issues, when her opponents weren't even involved in politics.

Thirteen years ago in Seattle:

She's taken her lumps and kept on fighting. Not running for cover on tough votes.

Hillary's speech today says everything that needs to be said about the difference between a true leader and a candidate who is all rhetoric and no action:

Hillary Clinton's Remarks Today on Her Experience and Vision for a New America

Hillary Clinton delivered remarks in Clear Lake, IA today about her experience and vision for a new America. The following is an excerpt from her speech:

"A couple of my leading opponents, directly and through surrogates, have spent months criticizing me without having to answer any of their own questions. They've been attacking my character. As I have said repeatedly, I really would prefer to attack the problems of the country and let my opponents run their own campaigns.

"But I have to set the record straight. Because often what you don't know can be far more important than what you do know. The people of Iowa, I know, are good people who are trying very hard to make the right decision in this caucus. But people can only act on what they know. And I've heard a lot of talk about turning the page, but what about the action to back it up?

"When it comes to health care, one of my opponents believes it's acceptable to leave out 15 million Americans. That would be 100,000 here in Iowa. Leave them out from his health care plan because universal coverage might be too hard to achieve. I disagree. I don't think we should start by giving up on 15 million Americans. That's why my health care plan covers everyone

"When it comes to Social Security, one of my opponents uses the Republican talking points and has been open to raising the retirement age and cutting benefits. Now he says he is for lifting the payroll tax, which would be a trillion dollar tax increase. Again, I disagree. I don't think we should fix Social Security on the backs of our seniors and the middle class. I have always fought for Social Security, I have always stood up against privatization, and as President, I will restore fiscal responsibility so we can keep Social Security as a sacred promise to our seniors.

"When it comes to Iran, I took a stand for aggressive diplomacy. One of my opponents made a different choice: He didn't show up for the vote. He didn't speak out during a presidential debate that night. And finally, he decided to play politics and claim that the vote he missed - a vote for diplomacy - was really a vote for war. Well if he really thought it was a rush to war, why did he rush to campaign and miss the vote?

"Now, there's been a lot of talk about yes or no answers to complex questions. But most people don't know that for legislators who don't want to take a stand, there's a third way to vote. Not yes, not no, but "present" - which is kind of like voting "maybe." Well, in the Illinois State Senate, on issue after issue, my opponent voted "present," instead of yes or no. Seven of those votes were on a woman's right to choose. Two of those votes were on measures to protect families from gun violence - one of which was a measure about firing guns on or near school grounds.

"A President can't vote "present." A President can't pick and choose which challenges he or she will face. My opponent's campaign said that voting "present" was a strategy to provide political cover. The Chicago Tribune said the present votes were the equivalent of taking a pass. Instead of looking for political cover or taking a pass, we need a President who will take a stand and stand there and do whatever is necessary for their country.

"Standing up for America's values and protecting our country and our people is the first job of the President. Bringing us together to end the war, fixing our economy, and taking on big challenges like immigration, health care, energy independence, climate change and so much else is what I will do.

"A President can't dodge the big fights, can't find political cover, or have words speak louder than actions. A lot of words we have these days aren't matched by action. And much of the actions I see, I simply disagree with. I have a very clear record on all of these issues. A record of 35 years of fighting for children and families, fighting for working people, fighting for our future - and as President, I will keep on fighting. But I'm running on more than just my record and my experience. I am also running on my vision and agenda of a new beginning for America.

"We need a new beginning on health care. We need to stand up to the drug companies and the insurance companies and provide health care for every single man, woman and child, at a price that people can afford and we're going to give them the help to do that."


Update [2007-12-3 18:0:10 by hwc]: The NYTimes adds some additional quotes from Clinton's speech:

“Now there is a funny argument in fashion these days – it goes something like this — those of us who have been fighting and winning these battles are not the right ones to push our country forward. The argument suggests that people like me, and Governor Richardson, and Senator Dodd and Senator Biden, are somehow disqualified from making the changes that American needs, even though we’ve been doing that for decades.”

“The idea goes that, if you want change, you need to get someone with less – not more – experience in actually making change happen. Well, I respectfully disagree. Experience and change are not opposing values. I think they go hand in hand – it takes strength and experience to bring about change.”

“I don’t think people want a lot of talk about change; I think they want someone with a real record, a doer not a talker. After eight years of incompetence, they don’t want false hopes, they want real results.”

“So you decide which makes more sense – to entrust our country to someone who is ready on Day 1 to make the decisions and the changes we need, or to put America in the hands of someone with little national or international experience, who started running for president as soon as he arrived in the United States Senate. How did running for president become a qualification for being president? Well, this is not a job that you can learn about from a book.”



Display:


What Hillary didn't (2.00 / 2)

say was the Planned Parenthood called those 7 votes a false choice, and issued a statement praising Obama for voting present.  She is really distorting his record here.  Hillary is stooping pretty low here, then again that is where the Clintons dwell.

"ABC News' Teddy Davis Reports: When Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., voted "present," rather than "yes" or "no" on a handful of controversial abortion votes in the Illinois state senate, he did so with the explicit support of the president and CEO of Illinois Planned Parenthood Council."
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/ 2007/07/obama-abortion-.html

Also, The NSE released today that Iran hasn't been pursuing Nuclear weapons since 2003... Kyl-Lieb?  Then again, Hillary probably doesn't care since she doesn't read the estaments.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:42:00 PM EST

A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

You left out this part, where the head of the Illinois Planned Parenthood made it clear that the "Present" votes were intended to provide political cover avoid taking tough stands.

As Obama also did issues like guns in schools and votes on Iranian policy.

"A 'present' vote was hard to pigeonhole which is exactly what Obama wanted."

"What it did," she continued, "was give cover to moderate Democrats who wanted to vote with us but were afraid to do so" because of how their votes would be used against them electorally. "A 'present' vote would protect them. Your senator voted 'present.' Most of the electorate is not going to know what that means."

While Sutherland was happy to give Obama latitude in voting "present," rather than "no," she was quick to note that "it's also not a 'yes' vote."

Hillary Clinton has never ducked a pro-choice vote.

A President can't vote "present".


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

Hillary Clinton has never ducked a pro-choice vote.

Nor a pro-war vote.


by antiHyde on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 09:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary should be proud (2.00 / 2)

After voting for an invasion to stop a non-existent weapons program, this time she only voted for "aggressive diplomacy" to stop a non-existent weapons program.  Maybe she should learn how to vote present.


New Jersey politics and news
by John DE on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A President can't vote "present" (1.50 / 2)

Or maybe Hillary could follow the leadership of fashion magazine candidates and learn how to skip town in order to duck tough votes on Iran policy.


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:55:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

You also left out this quote from the same ABC article:

"Nothing quite says principled and strong leadership like a 'present' vote on a controversial issue," RNC spokesman Dan Ronayne told ABC News. "Apparently the rookie didn't take all his at bats in the minors."


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

So you are proud of the fact that your candidate is parroting a right wing talking point?


by Benstrader on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You, HRC, and the RNC. (2.00 / 2)

Three peas in a pod.


by CarolinaNumber23 on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

on the NIE (none / 0)

Yeah, no duh, the whole point of Kyl/Lieberman as passed was to strengthen the hand of the doves in the administration. Notice that Iran has ramped down their Iraq meddling and Gates was able to knock this NIE free.

Or did you think Obama's principled absence from the Kyl/Lieberman vote strengthened their hand?


by souvarine on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

I appreciate what Hillary had done in the past. My problems with her candidate are threefold:

1) the vicious attacks on her, the past 15 years, by the RW slime machine have had their effect - she has sustained such high negative ratings over time that any misstep by her in the general would cause her to lose (this is not her fault but rather a cautionary tale for progressives on the need to contain the RW howlizer).

2) partially because of these RW attacks & partly because of Bill's influence, she has become a triangulator. At a time when Americans are receptive to a progressive agenda, she is running as a centrist candidate.

3) she adds nothing to the ticket in terms of presidential coattails. A strong Democratic candidate would produce congressional/senatorial pickups in the Midwest, border states & the West. She would only detract from our ability to pick up vital congressional/senatorial seats.

That said, I honor Hillary for all her work in the past. She's a fine person that has had an unbelievable amount of mud slinged at her, none of which she has deserved


by carter1 on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:48:18 PM EST

A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

A "triangulator" is a politician who casts aside principle for political expediency in casting "present" votes.


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

But should have judgement and courage. Clinton did not in the most important vote of her life. The AUF VOTE WHICH AUTHORIZED BUSH TO INVADE IRAQ.


by BDM on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 11:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

BTW, this is not about the past. This about electing a President of the United States.

Do we want a President who has made a career of ducking tough votes and issues or a President who has made a career of standing up and fighting for our core beliefs, even when it is unpopular?

A President can't vote "present".


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:10:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

"BTW, this is not about the past. This about electing a President of the United States.

Do we want a President who has made a career of ducking tough votes and issues or a President who has made a career of standing up and fighting for our core beliefs, even when it is unpopular?"

Isn't that contradictory?


by SocialDem on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

In other words. A politician who has made a career of ducking tough issues in order to polish his image would, we can certainly assume, continue to duck tough issues as President.

For example, is there anything in Barack Hussein Obama's legislative career that suggests he would be a strong advocate for a woman's right to choose? What if appointing a pro-life Supreme Court justice meant taking some political hits? Would he vote "present" again?


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

No, you said this isn't about the past. Isn't his record of "ducking" votes the past?


by SocialDem on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:24:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

Well done Hillary:

This was needed!  


by pate on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:51:26 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

I like this strategy because she calls Obama a talker not a fighter. In a tacit she's saying that Obama talks about bipartisanship because it's what he likes and that's easy, and he has no real plans to put up a fight for healthcare or anything else he's promising.   It's so snide in the,"Do you like his speeches, they are really nice speeches, but don't expect more than those pretty speeches, why you ask, well just look at his record of ducking important votes".  Sweet.  I can't wait for the response.


by Kingstongirl on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

Good post.

Those of us in Chicago know of Obama's fondness for "present" votes.


by BigBoyBlue on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:00:09 PM EST

wow, hwc is dogmatic! (none / 0)

scary. very scary.


by zoopnfunk on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:00:47 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (1.50 / 4)

As I've said before in my own diaries on this site, America does not need a part time President who constantly ducks out on tough issues because someone might get upset at the decision that is made.

Leaders lead.  

Once again, I'm reminded of the words of Gov. Zell Miller (D - GA):

"Campaign talk tells people who you want them to think you are. How you vote tells people who you really are deep inside."

Barack Obama talks about bringing a new style of politics to Washington because he wants the American people to think that he is a new style of politician.  However, Barack Obama's record tells us whom he really is deep inside.  

Deep inside, Barack Obama is your typical "old style" politician.  He's your typical old style politician who will skip out on the tough issues.  He's your typical old style politician who will stick his finger in the wind and go wherever the popular winds tell him to go.  He's your typical old style politician who finds it easier to criticize someone who had to make a tough decision that he didn't have to make.

Quite frankly, Barack Obama is an "uh-oh, better get Maaco" politician.  Obama is an old style politician with a fresh coat of new style political paint.

When it comes down to it, it's about your record and not your rhetoric.  And folks, Barack Hussein Obama's record doesn't match up to his rhetoric.


by andrewalker08 on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:27:39 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 2)

You really could find a better person to quote for that proposition than Zell Miller, I'm thinking!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

Yeah - the same Zell Miller who spoke AGAINST John Kerry at the REPUBLICAN convention.  

Not the person I look to for political advice.


by paida on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:20:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

Great speech by Hillary!  This so very much needed to be said and I hope Hillary repeats this same speech every day that she is campaigning in Iowa and NH.  

I only wish she had been doing it right from the start!

Go Hillary!


by samueldem on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 05:43:43 PM EST

use the "below the fold" option (none / 0)

please.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:05:33 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

Hillary Clinton can not, and will not win the GE. Get over it.


by SocialDem on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:23:12 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 1)

I wonder if Iowa voters know how Obama voted on Illinois Senate bill SB 609 in 2001:

A bill to restrict the location of buildings with "adult" uses (meaning pornographic video stores, strip clubs, etc.) within 1,000 feet of any public or private elementary or secondary school, public park, place or worship, preschool, day-care facility, mobile park or residential area.

Yep. Obama took a courageous stand and voted "present". Guess he didn't want to offend the strip club owners in his state.

Do strip clubs have state lobbyists?
 


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:28:11 PM EST

don't expect any Obama (2.00 / 1)

supporters to respond to your fact based questions about his voting record.

About the Barak Hussein Obama name usage though - you muddy the argument needlessly. Why give his supporters any reason to denigrate you? I am a huge Hillary fan and I would never use his full name. I know full well that it is a not very subtle attack on him. Same goes for any comments about his schooling in Indonesia. Obviously he did not go to a  Madrasa school. Why even insinuate that he did?


by SF Bay on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:03:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: don't expect any Obama (none / 0)

I agree SF Bay, I also think hwc is doing just that down thread in pointing out the various bills that Obama present on.


by Kingstongirl on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

agreed (none / 0)

The campaign and Hillary's supporters are too good for this kind of attack. It's beneath us.

I do like the hard work and research hwc puts into the facts of the argument. The facts alone make the case.


by SF Bay on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:28:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

What crap! A Republican "God & Motherhood" bill. Why stop at 1000 feet? 1005 feet is OK? So Obama should vote "Aye" and continue polluting the Illinois code with this junk? Or vote "No" and give the R's leave to say (like you) that he supports strip clubs next to schools? Have YOU stopped beating YOUR wife?

This constant stream of sewage from her campaign convinces me to never vote for her, not even in the general. I don't want a Bush with a bush in the White House.


by antiHyde on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 09:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary does have a wonderful, progressive (2.00 / 1)

record, and has always stood up for what she believes in.  I will never forget when I saw her speak in Wisconsin in 1992, while campaigning for her husband.  She brought up healthcare reform then,  investing in the middle class,  and creating jobs.  Everything she talks about today, and has talked about ever since,  has proven that she was serious back in 1992.  

As first lady, Hillary helped creat SCHIPS, helped to create legislation for foster children and families.

This is why the majority of Democrats have never stopped supporting her.  This is also why the majority of Hillary supporters wouldnt even consider voting for any of these UPSTARTS in the primary.  

We have already picked the winner.


Another proud Hillary Clinton supporter for Obama
by Sandy1938 on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:32:50 PM EST

Re: Hillary does have a wonderful, progressive (none / 0)

"As first lady, Hillary helped creat SCHIPS, helped to create legislation for foster children and families."

Read your Constitution.  First Ladies do NOTHING. They are not even mentioned. For all we now, Monica Lewinsky helped created SCHIP.


by antiHyde on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 09:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 2)

I wonder if gay and lesbian Democratic voters know how Obama voted on Illinois bill #HB 581 in 2003.

A bill specifying that domestic partners to be allowed to assume the rights of a spouse or survivor with regards to pension benefits under the Chicago Teacher's pension system.

Obama didn't vote on this one. He probably check with McClurkin and decided it was too risky to take a stand.
 


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:34:15 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

I wonder if Iowa voters know how Obama voted on Illinois bill HB 2000:

To establish a zero-tolerance drug-testing policy for Department of Corrections Employees.

Wow. This must have been a tough issue. Obama voted "present". The cocaine dealers lobby must have twisted him arm.
 


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:36:36 PM EST

A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

Let's be real. I don't know who I will vote for in the NY primary but she has driven many of us liberal New Yorkers nuts, e.g.

1. The vote authorizing the Iraq war despite the fact that the majority of New Yorkers opposed it.

  1. The too cutsey by half attempt to criminalize flag burning.
  2. Her vote for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment.
  3. Her chiding of the pro-choice lbby in her famous speech on abortion.

She can attack Obama's policies, byt please nor his character. There are too many stones in her bag of tricks.


by NYWoman on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:51:54 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

The President has to have the character to take strong positions on issues. A President can't vote "present".


by hwc on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 07:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

"even when the entire country was against her"
The important thing is partizan posters do not dwell in the valley of hyperbole.
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:54:20 PM EST

Thanks for the diary (none / 0)

I enjoyed watching that old youtube link.

If I were Patti Solis-Doyle and running HRC's campaign, I would make the argument that a president needs to multi-task regarding Obama's no-show for the L-K vote. Remember in the last debate, BO said that he was campaigning and missed the L-K vote? As an extension to the argument that HRC is presently making, she should also say that the future president will have a lot of issues on her plate. She will have to be well-organized to be on top of all these issues. It's not a good sign that Barack already can't keep up his schedule of campaigning along with performing his day job. Right now his responsibilities are rather limited. If he became president, how would he handle the job with all of its responsibilities?

But again, I wouldn't start this line of the argument until after she got through with the present argument against Obama's present voting pattern....


by ademption on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 07:14:06 PM EST

a question (none / 0)

There were some 10 pretty important votes in the Illinois State Senate that Obama did not take a stand on; i.e. he voted present.

Why do you think he did that, and do you think it was evidence of leadership? One bill in particular, the vote to increase penalties for the use of a firearm within 1000 feet of a school passed by a vote of 52 to 1 with 5 voting present. It's clear that this bill was massively bipartisan. What reason could Obama possibly have had to vote "present"? I just can't figure it out.

Couple this with his work with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, where he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases; these types of bills should be a no brainer for him. What's up?


by SF Bay on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the diary (none / 0)

she didnt vote to authorize war. you're buying into campaign rhetoric and its total bullshit.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 10:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (2.00 / 2)

Solid proof that Obama has a very unimpressive voting record and the disturbing tendency to not vote on tough legislation that may make his record "controversial" (a good centrist politician keeps his options to both sides wide open, I guess) comes in the form of progressivepunch.org, a progessive site measuring Congress members voting Congress records for progressive bonafides.   Obama fares terribly.

On a review of his entire Senate voting record he comes in a rather disappointing 24th, meaning that out of 49 Democrats he is the 24th progressive in    the Democratic caucus, a somewhat middle-of-the road  record no progressive can be happy with.

http://progressivepunch.org/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=ILIII&c hamber=Senate&zip=&x=37&y=8

 However,  very telling is Obama's record "when the chips are down," meaning Obama's voting record when the votes are actually VERY close, could go either way, which is the voting record that really  counts, as anyone can pad their progressive resume   with votes that don't mean much (where it is already a landslide win or defeat for legislation anyway.)   When the chips were down, Obama's voting record identifies him as the #44 on the progressive scale.   Out of 49 Democrats TOTAL.  #44.

http://www.progressivepunch.org/members. jsp?search=selectScore&chamber=Senat e&scoreSort=current_close

   So, when the chips were down and it came to voting on legislation that was going to be very close, within 3 or 4 votes, Obama either voted the wrong way or did not show up for the vote, many times to have his cake (not to vote on tough legislation, thereby not having to make those tough decisions) and eat it, too (=able to tell people he DID not vote for that overly left-wing bill or tell people that he would have voted for it, had he just been present for the vote,) the classic politician's politician.    Being ranked #44 out of 49 Democrats on the progressive scale on the measure "Voting record when the chips are down," which is really the only voting record that counts, is an embarassment to progressives everywhere.   IMO Obama is not the  progressive he makes himself out to be.  You don't rank 44th out of 49 Democrats on the progressive  meter in the one metric that really COUNTS and are considered a true progressive.  It does not compute.    

Obama has a very weak voting record from a progressive point of view, but for him to time his absences to coincide with the tough votes (the ones that could go either way and where his presence is of vital importance) shows what wood he is carved on.  I am not at all impressed with a record that plays it safe and "middle of the road" to the extent Obama does.   #44 on the progressive richter scale is ample proof of my assertion here.


by georgep on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 07:46:23 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

You should diary this georgep.


by lonnette33 on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks--I will send this info (none / 0)

to some undecided people who are considering Obama.

It's a valid point.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 12:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

Let's face it.  None of these people has lived up to the standards we ought to expect at times of outstanding need for leadership.  The Democrats by and large have aided and abetted the horrible excesses of the Bush administration, having voted to go to war and having voted to fund the war continually.  Our traditions of civil liberties going back to King John's capitulation in the Magna Carta have been shredded with support of the Democrats.  So, we can snipe back and forth about whose triangulations have been worse than who else's.  So, the argument, no matter who is nominated, will be whether enough people can be convinced to hold their noses against the moral stench and to vote for the Democrats and against the Republicans in the next election.  Don't talk to me about the land of the free and the home of the brave.  Ain't none of that been going around either party recently.  Shame on the Democratic candidates for their shameful performances over the past 6 years.  No heros here.


by downtown democrat on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 09:27:10 PM EST

What is Obama's position? (none / 0)

I didn't see the forum. Does Obama support prisoners being let out retroactive that used crack cocaine? It sounds fair to me.


by SF Bay on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 09:32:58 PM EST

Re: What is Obama's position? (none / 0)

He supports retroactivity while Clinton does not.


by BDM on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 11:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about it Obama supporters (none / 0)

Why do you not defend his present votes on their merits? You obviously don't have a problem with it. Why not? If another candidate, any candidate running for president had the same record of "present" votes I assume that wouldn't bother you either.


by SF Bay on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 10:28:18 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

Why is a racist/sexist doing front page posts?


by Progressive America on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 10:59:39 PM EST

Re: A President can't vote "present" (none / 0)

A brilliant fusillade from Hillary, especially  since everyone is protecting Barack like a wunderkind "child prodigy," as Maureen Dowd so patronisingly called him, Hillary must continue to draw contrasts.


by superetendar on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 12:16:59 AM EST


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