Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutto Assassination

by Big Tent Democrat, Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:32:32 PM EST

Axelrod disgustingly blames Hillary for the Bhutto assassination:

Bhutto’s death will “call into issue the judgment: who’s made the right judgments,” [Obama campaign manager David] Axelrod said. “Obviously, one of the reasons that Pakistan is in the distress that it’s in is because al-Qaeda is resurgent, has become more powerful within that country and that’s a consequence of us taking the eye off the ball and making the wrong judgment in going into Iraq. That’s a serious difference between these candidates and I’m sure that people will take that into consideration.” . . . “She was a strong supporter of the war in Iraq, which we would submit, was one of the reasons why we were diverted from Afghanistan, Pakistan and al-Qaeda, who may have been players in this event today, so that’s a judgment she’ll have to defend,” Axelrod said.

Wow! I can not believe he said that. Beyond the fact that the problems of resources in Pakistan are not related to Iraq (indeed, the Bush Administration has given away resources that the Pakistanis diverted to issues other than fighting Al Qaida), where was Obama on funding of Iraq and Pakistan for his tenure in the Senate? What did He do? According to Axelrod, is Obama to blame for the Bhutto assassination too? Outrageous stuff from the Obama campaign.




Tags: Election 2008, Barack Obama (all tags)

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Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (1.00 / 1)

Axelrod is a tool and he knows it.

Apparently, in his view, Mr. Barack Hussein Obama can deal with Muslim leaders, and why not? He has a Muslim background and was raised in a Muslim nation.


by American1989 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:34:33 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 2)

Axelrod should read and reread this article, which explains how Obama's statements on Pakistan precipitated protests in the streets and elicited condemnations from top Pakistani officials.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:36:44 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

We do not even know who the assassins are.  


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:40:02 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 2)

I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it. But assuming Obama is right about Pakistan/Iraq, I think its fair to ask what steps did Obama take in the senate to shift the focus from Iraq to Pakistan. He's had 2 years in the Senate to introduce bills on Pakistan, refuse to vote for Iraq funding, take steps to get our eye "on the ball".

It's one thing to talk about how good your judgement is but it's a whole other thing to demonstrate your judgment, especially when you're critizing others.

Clinton and her supporters have defended her judgment on Iraq and other foreign policy issues. What has Obama done to PROVE he has judgment when it counts?

Thanks for the reply.


by world dictator on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:22:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dodd, not Biden, is a good candidate (2.00 / 1)

I really prefer Chris Dodd.  He has as much experience in the Senate as Biden, he is not a wholly owned subsidiery of MNBA like Biden, and he stood tall for the constitution.


by dataguy on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MBNA doesn't exist anymore (none / 0)


by Sam Spencer on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MBNA doesn't exist anymore (none / 0)

Actually, it's part of Bank of America. It still shows up as a source for charge funds.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:44:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 2)

Axelrod and Obama are engaging in a reckless and cynical politicization of an event that may have nothing to do with Al-Qaeda and Iraq.  Besides, Obama is the one who precipitated protests in Pakistan with his reckless foreign policy statements.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:41:25 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

That's untrue.  The official remarks were typical machinations of the Pakistani establishment and the oft cited public protest was a small staged demonstration by a jihadist minority party in Karachi.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 2)

It still nonetheless exacerbated the political instability of that country.  And you also neglect to cite the condemnations issued by top Pakistani officials in the wake of Obama's utterly naïve statements.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Here's some articles, unreported in the West, from Pakistan contemporary with Obama's remarks earlier this year.   Here's one worth reading.  I especially noted this bit from the Parliamentary leader of the MMA:


"Our foreign policy revolves around the United States", he said, adding the global terrorism theory was the brainchild of the US administration and nothing else. "No one supports the incidents of terrorism taking place in the US in which innocent people lost their lives, but the way these events took place raised many eyebrows," he added.


They were really pissed and it wasn't because of Obama's remarks.  How about this, The following day's top story in the The News, notice it doesn't even mention Obama:


ISLAMABAD: Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Major (retd) Syed Tanveer Hussain has advised the government to recognise the Taliban and open all corridors for militants to wage Jihad for the liberation of Kashmir.

"India will not give freedom to the Kashmiris through dialogue so we have to wage a Jihad and our Mujahideen will secure the freedom of Kashmir within six months," he said, while speaking in the National Assembly on Tuesday during a debate on Pakistan's foreign policy.

The stunning speech of the parliamentary secretary got a positive response from the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal, particularly when he praised the Taliban and asked the government to give a shut-up call to the United States over its threats to Pakistan.

He also asked the government to counter the recent US `Pressler-type bill' by allowing Jihad. "The aid that forces us to mistreat our own people should be spewed out," he added. In his hard-hitting and emotional speech, Syed Tanveer Hussain said that Pakistan should also recognise the Taliban, who were the enemies of the United States. "Taliban did not have any enmity with Pakistan but only with the United States," he added.

He alleged that the American CIA was killing the Chinese in Pakistan to harm the cordial relations between the two countries. He also asked the government to open all the corridors for the Jihadis to enter held Kashmir so that they could wage Jihad against India. "We cannot get Kashmir on negotiations table but through Jihad," he said, while raising the slogans of `Al-Jihad, Al-Jihad'.

He said the government should renounce its `love affair' with America and reject all kinds of aid. "We should improve our relations with Iran, China and Russia as the United States will not give us anything except threats," he added.

The parliamentary secretary said Muslims were being killed throughout the world under a conspiracy but "we have turned a blind eye to the same". "Our foreign policy must be based on Quran and Sunnah," he stressed. Tanveer Hussain said that Syed Hasan Nasrullah had inflicted a defeat on Israel and Pakistan should take a lesson from him.

Asim Yasin - The News 8 Aug

That's their Parliamentary Secretary for Defence talking.  I think the 'Pressler-type bill' he is talking about is our 9/11 Recommendations passed just prior to Obama's remarks.  Read the foreign press, man.  US reading habits are far to insular.  You want my opinion?  The al-Qaeda 'war on terror' frame that has been sold in the states is not a really useful model for trying to deal with our actual threats and Pakistan has been a duplicitous player from the outset.  Bush and Cheney have been way out of their depth for a long time.  We are in for big trouble and the war in Iraq is a mistake we will regret for many, many years to come.  None of this is Obama's fault, for pity's sake.  I am grateful he broke the spell, we were, in public discussion, living in a fantasy world about Pakistan.  But we are fools, nonetheless and nobody is going to be invading Waziristan anytime soon.  Things are now completely out of hand and Hillary is far more responsible for her past actions than Obama, as should be abundantly clear.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:40:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 2)

Your argument is just as untenable as that of Axelrod.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Replying to your comments with evidence and analysis is pretty useless and unproductive.  Is that all you have to say?  Did you even read my response?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

Yes, I did, and I cited evidence above.  By the way, Axelrod has modified his statement.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Oh, good.  Has Hillary modified her AUMF vote?  Shucks.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

snap


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

"Axelrod has modified his statement."

That's statements -- plural.  I've seen more than one quote, so this was planned spin, not a single misstatement.

Greg Sargent quotes Axelrod making an even more explicit connection between Senator Clinton and today's tragedy, stating "now we see the effect of that."

"REPORTER: But looking ahead, does the assassination put on the front burner foreign policy credentials in the closing days?

AXELROD: Well, it puts on the table foreign policy judgment, and that's a discussion we welcome. Barack Obama had the judgment to oppose the war in Iraq, and he warned at the time it would divert us from Afghanistan and al Qaeda, and now we see the effect of that. Al Qaeda's resurgent, they're a powerful force now in Pakistan, they may have been involved -- we've been here, so I don't know whether the news has been updated, but there's a suspicion they may have been involved in this.

I think his judgment was good. Senator Clinton made a different judgment, so let's have that discussion."

Axelrod quote

He's modified his statements by lying that he never drew an explicit link.  He did.


by Canaan on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

to say nothing of the fact that he is LYING (none / 0)

about what Clinton supported.  She did NOT support war with Iraq.  Just what "judgment" does he claim Clinton had?
He is lying and Clinton should call Obama on this lie.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

An advisor to Bhutto claims her assassination may have been planned and executed by elements within the state apparatus who despised her.  To blame this on the Taliban or on what you and others glibly call jihadists is more a sign of impetuousness than of sound judgement.  


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Don't be silly, there are jihadists within the state apparatus as well as parliament.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

But that would still mean that the aumf vote has bleep all to do with it. And that Afganistan is only semi-related.

Can't have it both ways.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Don't follow your reasoning, frankly, the AUMF and the war in Iraq created the imperative that we support Musharraf, a dictator, as leader of Pakistan because we were fighting a war on two fronts with Pakistan as the clear vector of our enemies.  We relied on Pakistan to eliminate the operational base in Waziristan on our behalf and they failed us, in fact betrayed us, and by the time that became obvious we were too heavily engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan to exercise any other options but continue our tacit support for a duplicitous ally.  Musharraf snookered us and that the state apparatus was involved in Bhutto's assassination is certainly credible today.  All because of the AUMF vote, eh?


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:18:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Bull, we had allied ourselves with Pakistan right before we invaded Afghanistan and AQ and the taliban was fleeing to Pakistan and rebuilding their strength there immediately. And all that time Pakistan didn't do anything.

For the AUMF vote to be relevant Pakistan had to suddenly change it's behavior regarding AQ and the taliba in Waziristan. They never did, they simply continued the behavior they were already engaged in.

ANd even with that illogical and non factual explanation you sudden leap to "and then they killed Bhutto" without an explanation why or how our troops in a neighboring country would have somehow avoided that. It's a nonsensical explanation, that ignores the more onerous behavior directly leading up to it just so you can whitewash your candidate and implicate a rival. Intellectually dishonest.

I'm used to better from you.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

This goes back to long before 2002.  The AUMF constrained our actions and made our reliance on Musharraf more necessary.  He has basically betrayed us, for predictable reasons.  It is a failure of our foreign policy so complete that we are in a very serious position right now with not much in the way of alternatives  Are you suggesting that this position is one which was imposed on us through no missteps on our own behalf?  I strongly disagree.  It was Bill Clinton's administration whose watch permitted the elevation of Musharraf to leadership in the first instance, for dubious motives.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:35:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 3)

You know at some point the obama campaign would have to realize that attacking Hillary Clinton over the death of Bhutto is just as low as anyone can go.It hasn't even been what more than 5 minutes since she was killed.

You can make that case some other time but not on the backdrop of her assasination.

It is off base and irresponsible in my view but you are entitled to your position.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:43:33 PM EST

MYDD (2.00 / 1)

"Wow! I can not believe he said that."

Sigh....the feigned outrage of the primary season (from all sides - Obama, Clinton, and Edwards supporters) continues.

Can't wait until it's over!


by mcdave on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:44:26 PM EST

some people do fake outrage (2.00 / 1)

the diarist is not one of them.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:53:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some people do fake outrage (none / 0)

Sigh. Ok, whatever you say.


by mcdave on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some people do fake outrage (2.00 / 2)

Is there a rule that states people who JUST START POSTING on a site (I see your very first post from the 23rd of Dec.) have to SIGH the loudest and most heart-wrenching?  


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some people do fake outrage (none / 0)

I was going to move on, but puleese ... MB, an Al Gore optimist of all people, showed up with instant mojo. Go figure that one. She sure didn't have anything to sigh about, troll rating herself silly her first few days at this site.

Just saying for the other newbies out there.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:58:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh gee (2.00 / 2)

one of the whiny Obama people who reserve the right to troll rate anyone who isn't nice to Obama has claimed I was a newbie with instant mojo.  Oh had I only known how special I was.

I went to your blog to try and remember who you are and I see you favor NewsBusters over media matters. You also have quite a penchant for conspiracy theories that cast Clinton as evil.

You're a riot.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some people do fake outrage (none / 0)

it's fake ennui.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some people do fake outrage (none / 0)

I registered a long time ago. Like a couple of years ago...I didnt' post until recently, when I felt the need to ridicule the notion that Obama should be attacked for getting good media.


by mcdave on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some people do fake outrage (2.00 / 1)

The fact that Obama considers explicitly exploiting someone's death "good media" is the pathetic action that everyone is critisizing.


by world dictator on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some people do fake outrage (none / 0)

If you're not a newbie then you'd know that BTD doesn't do fake.

he's been around the entire bloggosphere for years now. I don't particularly agree with him all of the time, but he's outspokenly honest even wen it costs him. I don't think he does fake.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks (none / 0)

I thought so.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is there nothing you won't twist. (2.00 / 1)

The answer was clearly in reply to a question whether Clinton will benefit the most from this being in the news as is evidenced the the FIRST PARAGRAPH of the article which sets up the quote you highlight:


David Axelrod, Barack Obama's top strategist, told reporters after the speech that Clinton will not benefit from a renewed conversation about foreign policy in the wake of Benazir Bhutto's assassination in Pakistan.


by Piuma on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:44:39 PM EST

Re: Is there nothing you won't twist. (2.00 / 3)

I don't see anywhere in that paragraph that it "clearly" says Axelrod was asked a question about "whether Clinton will benefit the most."

More to the point, even assuming he was asked a question like that, I can't believe you find it appropriate for him to go on at length about how Hillary has Bhutto's blood on her hands.  There's clearly a classy way to respond to this news and a non-classy one, and if you care about nothing else, it's certainly poor politics to choose the non-classy response.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is there nothing you won't twist. (none / 0)

You don't need to resort to the hyperbole of blood on her hands.  From reading the news reports, I think it is clear the reporters have staked out the position this will play best for Guiliani and Clinton.  And look at Clinton's statement:

In a world of such violence and threats, Clinton said, "it certainly raises the stakes high for what we expect from our next president. I know from a lifetime of working to make change."

To pretend, as BTD does, that Axelrod's statement exists in a vacuum is to....pretend.  Yes, I don't know exactly what transpired, but anyone who wishes to be fair would have included the setup to the quote.  But yes, this is MyDD, fairness is not an issue and after a while it suck everyone into that black hole, doesn't it?


by Piuma on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is there nothing you won't twist. (2.00 / 2)

Axelrod's statement is a gratuitous attempt to blame Clinton for Bhutto's assassination.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:08:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is there nothing you won't twist. (2.00 / 1)

How about some fairness from Obama supporters?  Whenever someone says anything about Obama they are charged with racism or being in the "backpocket" of Clinton, Edwards, etc.  This comment is very, very poor, and I think Axelrod should apologize for this ridiculous smear job.  But, myopia being what it is, good luck trying to get any Obama supporters to agree.  To them everything that could possibly be said is always ok, as long as it helps get Obama elected.  


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is there nothing you won't twist. (2.00 / 1)

Hillary's comment is a gratuitous nothing compared to Axelrod going on and on like that.

You and objectivity aren't even in the same solar system on this one.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is there nothing you won't twist. (2.00 / 1)

Even if that were an "answer," it is an outrageous slimy smear.  Do you see such a thing in Clinton's comment?  Did she blame Obama for this unrest because, say, he made comments a while back in regards to Pakistan that created unrest and consternation in Pakistan?   Hard to believe you equate the two comments in any way.    


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Campaign Consorts with Fox News (2.00 / 2)

Hillary killed Bhutto just like she killed Vince Foster! Stop the presses, she's getting a little sloppy because this time she didn't make it look like a suicide!


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:44:39 PM EST

No, it's not a fair one (2.00 / 2)

look at the statements of Clinton and Edwards when explaining  their vote for the IWR. Edwards was pro-war, Clinton's vote was for different reasons as she explains.
Obama has voted for all the funding of the Iraq war.  But Axelrod's standards Obama is also to blame.  I don't know why he keeps making this same mistake, blaming Clinton for things Obama is actually guilty of. He should have learned his lesson when he tried to smear Clinton for her vote on the entirely meaningless K-L bill.... if it was that important why didn't Obama show up to vote?
The man is not a tool, he's an idiot.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:50:41 PM EST

Re: No, it's not a fair one (none / 0)

Sigh. Ok. Clinton never supported the war in Iraq. Obama supported it. Ok. Sigh.


by mcdave on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, it's not a fair one (none / 0)

If you actually read the comment, that she points out the faults of axelrod's illogical and misleading statement. All that is the logical conclusion if his statement is correct.

Logical conclusion? : axelrod is smearing with a bullshit argument.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:25:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton should go to DEFCON 5 on Obama (none / 0)

She should just gut his silly weak behind.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:52:09 PM EST

Re: Clinton should go to DEFCON 5 on Obama (none / 0)

I'm not even sure that makes biological sense.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton should go to DEFCON 5 on Obama (none / 0)

Well it's anatomically challenging.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton should go to DEFCON 5 on Obama (none / 0)

It's DEFCON 1 buddy. 5 is the lowest level of military readiness. 1 is essentially nuclear war or the expectation of an attack on the United States.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My bad (none / 0)

DEFCON 1 ... she should nuke his weak sissy behind.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 1)

Indeed an outrageous comment. Although I don't particularly care for any of the advisors and campaign managers,  Axelrod is the worst of the lot, BY FAR.  I think Axelrod is seeing the writing on the wall for Iowa, which would explain this ridiculous commentary.  

BTW, am I right in assuming that you are no longer an Obama supporter?


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:54:19 PM EST

I am so glad (2.00 / 2)

that Axelrod is not advising Edwards anymore.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am so glad (2.00 / 1)

Agreed, but the buck stops at the top of the chain of command, not with Axelrod.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am so glad (none / 0)

obama will once again blame an overzealous staffer.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wolfson is far worse than Axelrod (none / 0)

No one is worse than Howard Wolfson.  Have you noticed that he is rarely on TV anymore?


by Lawdawg on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wolfson is far worse than Axelrod (none / 0)

Nah, Axelrod is the worst, and he IS on TV, which tells you a lot.  


by georgep on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 01:55:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wolfson is far worse than Axelrod (none / 0)

Howard Wolfson shouldn't be allowed to come in a hundred feet of a tv camera. But there is some difference between good in your chosen field, and being good on tv. They only rarely overlap.

That said, I'm not particularly impressed by Wolfson in his real job yet either.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:39:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Barry should fire Axelrod (none / 0)

If Barry is "different" let him show it.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:58:21 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary (2.00 / 1)

This is an OUTRAGE.  WTF?


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:59:53 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

Maybe he's right.  Maybe it's correct we all should be expressing a lot more fucking outrage the direction this country was lead by Bush and his enablers to take the eye of Bin Laden and preemptively invade Iraq.  


by Piuma on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:05:58 PM EST

no, this was out of line (2.00 / 2)

You can disagree with Hillary on foreign policy, but we have no idea who killed Bhutto yet, and putting the blame on an American senator is way off base.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:09:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

OF course he is "right."  Whatever Obama or any of his advisors or workers say is always right to most Obama supporters, after all.  


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wow. (none / 0)

You certainly read a lot into his comment.


d
by d on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:09:00 PM EST

Re: wow. (none / 0)

From the Politico

"Barack Obama had the judgment to oppose the war in Iraq, and he warned at the time it would divert us from Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, and now we see the effect of that. Al Qaeda's resurgent, they're a powerful force now in Pakistan, they may have been involved," Obama adviser David Axelrod told reporters in Iowa.

What part of that is not explicit to you?


by world dictator on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 2)

He's correct.  Pakistan and Afghanistan were always the ideological and logistical base for al-Qaeda, the Taliban and sympathetic Pakistani jihadists, both within and outside government.  Our current situation in Afghanistan is devolving daily and is intimately connected to Pakistan which is now in serious crisis.  Senator Obama's remarks in August directing our attention to the apparent resurgence of al-Qaeda in Pakistan were timely and necessary.

The AUMF vote and our precipitous invasion of Iraq was about the most disastrous misstep we could have made and we are now paying the price for that bad judgement.  Obama has been calling for the prosecution of the war on our real enemies since 2002 and has never ceased emphasising the gravity of our situation in Afghanistan and, by implication, Pakistan.  It is Hillary's judgement which has been questionable and that she made the choice to vote for the AUMF based on domestic political considerations is a shameful miscalculation.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:15:54 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 2)

Disgusting comment.  Obama fans are now turning to shrillness and ridiculous hyperbole, upon seeing Obama's chances swimming away.  


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:25:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Disgusting, is it?  But factually correct nonetheless.  I would welcome some specific criticism if you've got any.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

Where is it factually correct?  By that reasoning, every single vote Obama took to finance the Iraq war and every single passionate speech against SETTING A DATE CERTAIN that took him to the Senate floor has Obama share particularly strong responsibility for this assassination.   Disgusting trash and reasoning that is bizarre and contemptible.  Very disappointed and surprised you would reason that way, actually.  


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

The AUMF vote was a critical juncture and turning point in US foreign policy.  Having authorised the war I don't support any Democrat, especially a candidate for the presidency, voting to cut funding for troops in the field.  On the one occasion when both Obama and Hillary did support such legislation Hillary waited until Obama voted and followed suit.  What is your problem with these comments?  Surely you didn't expect Hillary's hawkish stance to not be criticised at some point.

The notion that the war in Iraq was in any way indicated by our global conflict with al-Qaeda has been totally discredited.  Yet al-Qaeda or it's affiliates are the likely assassins of Benazir Bhutto.  Why is this 'disgusting trash' to you?  It is a terrible tragedy and a serious crisis to our objectives but the logical thread connecting these events seems clear.  We set ourselves on a disastrous path with the AUMF and the invasion of Iraq and the price has yet to be fully paid.  I would have thought this was obvious by now.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

You used to be sensible Shaun. What happened to you? It's a shame that you of all people are defending this comment. If this comment had come for HRC' camp we would be the difference in the BO supporters. You are disappointing Shaun!


by lonnette33 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Well, sorry Lonnette, but this isn't a personality quest.  The AUMF vote is directly related to our current crisis in Pakistan, the resurgence of al-Qaeda there and the very likely significant reverses we are currently absorbing in Afghanistan.

I am defending the substance of Axelrod's comment, we are living in perilous times and hawkish foreign policy has been the cause of most of it.  Who do you think we should hold to account for this?  Bush and Cheney?  Certainly.  And all those who enabled them.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

Sad indeed Shaun.


by lonnette33 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Perhaps, Lonnette, but true.  Hillary is running on her foreign policy 'experience' but our experience of her foreign policy does not recommend her.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

You can try to play games Shaun. Everyone knows HRC is experienced. Even that knit wit Mika B. on MSNBC agreed that the NYTimes articles was kinda stupid. Although, she didn't use my words. Please remember that there is a reason why Gore can't stand HRC. Gore was left out in the dark many times on certain issues, when HRC had the Big Dog's ear. Say what you want about her polices, stances etc., HRC is experienced. Like it or not.


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Experienced?  Well, if you accept the 'experience' in foreign policy in her husband's administration than she bears even more direct responsibility for the circumstances surrounding Bhutto's assassination.  You may recall Musharraf's coup in 1999 which deposed the democratically elected Sharif?  On Bill Clinton's watch, and a failure of US diplomacy in which we traded a legitimate government in Pakistan for an end to a dangerous war in Kashmir, a bluff which Musharraf won at our expense.  If her 'experience' is founded in that administration than so is her responsibility, you can't have it both ways.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

"Well, if you accept the 'experience' in foreign policy in her husband's administration than she bears even more direct responsibility for the circumstances surrounding Bhutto's assassination."

You've lost it! Loco! I am through discussing this with you. Good luck with your guy!


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

I explained that Obama appears to be every bit the hawk you pretend others to be (as his rather insensitive comments vis-a-vis Pakistan which received world-wide condemnation prove,) but when he took to the Senate floor to argue stronly against setting a date certain not once but twice, he (And his supporters) forfeited any right to claim superior judgement.  He obviously helped preolong the Iraq issue with his strong argumentation against setting a withdrawal date.  

Of course, it is trashy to lay blame at someone's feet and hold oneself unaccountable, but that is the type of arrogance and insufferably misguided overexaggerated self-view Obama has of himself.  A rather typical proclamation from his campaign and his supporters.  I was just hoping the never-questioning myopia would not extend all the way to Australia, but no such luck.


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:29:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

You explained that Obama appears to be every bit the hawk you pretend others to be.  Well thanks for your explanation of the appearance of pretence, but Hillary voted for the AUMF and you can't explain that away.  That makes her a hawk, George, in fact not in appearance or pretence.

Say what you will Obama's long-standing position that Iraq has been our biggest obstacle to prosecuting the 'war on terror' against our real enemies is hard to argue against.  Especially for Hillary, given she was culpable in the worst misjudgement we made along the way.  We are still paying the price.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

If that were true at all (I think Axelrod's comment was a disgusting smear, frankly) then the person who he SHOULD have gone after would have to be one of the most involved in the  AUMF, the co-sponsor John Edwards.   He does not even mention him, which tells you all you need to know about the slime Axelrod is peddling here.   Truly disgusting, but what can one expect from the likes of Axelrod, R. Gibbs, etc.  


by georgep on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 01:53:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Well, Edwards wasn't the one initially suggesting that Bhutto's death was a springboard for his candidacy.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 03:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

"Edwards wasn't the one initially suggesting that Bhutto's death was a springboard for his candidacy."

Shaun, you have some serious issues.

Bhutto's death is a springboard for Clinton's candidacy, according to Hillary Clinton's suggestion?  I am very surprised at your commentary here.  I guess many Obama posters are just fanatical beyond reason, which then manifests itself in unreasonable posts like that one.   I have refrained from calling the whole thing a "cult," as many others have done, but, boy, when supposedly decent members from that neck of the woods write complete cowdung like the above, what else can one surmise?  

Of course, if/when Obama disavows these comments and apologizes for them, you will not miss a beat and simply move onto the next item, as if your 'never-can-do-wrong' comments were written in a vacuum.  I appreciate partisanship like the next guy, heck, I am convinced Hillary is by far the best candidate, thus I am partisan as heck for her.  However, this stuff crosses the line to the disingenious, which is unfortunate IMO.  


by georgep on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 03:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

georgep, BO was on Larry King Live last night with Wolf.  He didn't disvow the comments, he defended the comments. Truly amazing if you ask me.


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Hillary bears responsibility through her AUMF vote for the war in Iraq and the circumstances which have compelled us to support a dictator in Pakistan throughout the 'war on terror.'  Strategically the war in Iraq was about the stupidest thing we could have done and Hillary's support at the time was unequivocal.  Read it and weep, George, Hillary's whole career is founded on the flimsiest spin and you are certainly on board that train.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lame excuse Shaun (none / 0)

particularly considering the fact that her statement was not an attack on anyone.

Obama is the democratic George Bush 2, not ready for prime time but boosted by those who only want to win and couldn't care less about the state of the nation. He is pathetically unprincipled. If he had any character at all he would set Axelrod straight.    But all Obama has is ambition and that is all he has ever been.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lame excuse Shaun (none / 0)

Well, Mollie, i have been keeping my true feelings about Hillary to myself in the interest of fair dealing in this forum.  I personally don't think much of US foreign policy during the Clinton administration and the rot in Pakistan is directly related to the elevation of Musharraf in 1999 by Bill, and by association of her White House foreign policy 'experience,' if you accept that tendentious argument, Hillary.  They are the ones who supported the deposing of Sharif, the last legitimate democratic Prime Minister, in favour of Pervez Musharraf, a duplicitous and untrustworthy dictator who has arguably betrayed us in the 'war on terror' everyone was so excited about at the time of the AUMF vote.  No, Hillary has about the worst record a Democrat could have on this issue.  But you love her, right?  So that makes Obama a pathetically unprincipled George Bush II?  Yeah, right...  Read some history Mollie, it would be good for your world view.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

You used to be sensible Shaun. What happened to you? It's a shame that you of all people are defending this comment. If this comment had come from HRC's camp, you would have written a diary about it. You are disappointing Shaun!


by lonnette33 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (2.00 / 1)

You neglect to consider how Obama's comments exacerbated the resentment of certain extreme elements in Pakistan.  Because Bhutto signified modernity in Pakistan, one can assume Obama's comments and the protests they engendered helped create the inhospitable environment Bhutto was forced to confront.  But even more egregious about your comment is the assumption that Bhutto's assassination was planned and executed by those you glibly call jihadists.  Predicated on this potentially bankrupt notion, the ad hoc argument you propound in a vain attempt to lend Axelrod's assignation of blame historical and political ballast lacks an empirical foundation.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:30:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

You neglect to consider how Obama's comments exacerbated the resentment of certain extreme elements in Pakistan.  Because Bhutto signified modernity in Pakistan, one can assume Obama's comments and the protests they engendered helped create the inhospitable environment Bhutto was forced to confront.

This is just as despicable as anything Axelrod said.  I hope the reasonable Hillary supporters will agree with me on this.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

We can at least assume Obama's recent statements and the response they elicited did not ameliorate the instability in Pakistan.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

You have no idea what you are talking about, it seems.  Maybe it's time for you to take the trouble to substantiate your remarks with links and thoughtful analysis.  This issue has been discussed at length in this forum in the past.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I cited the articles wherein the protests motivated by Obama's statements were reported.  And now I notice the Obama campaign is attempting to backpedal from Axelrod's preposterous assignation of blame.  


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

The articles about the protests motivated by Obama's statements?  Like this one?:


In Karachi, Pakistani's largest city, about 150 people chanted slogans against the US, Obama and Tancredo at a demonstration organized by Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, a coalition of six hard-line religious parties. Protesters set fire to a US flag.

"Those who are talking about attacking our holiest places are committing blasphemy. The punishment for this offense is death, and death only," said coalition lawmaker Mohammed Hussain Mahanti.

AP, Islamabad - Aug 05 07

Mass riots?  Not so much.  If you recall that it was Tancredo who had discussed nuking Mecca and Medina it is pretty clear the harshest rhetoric was directed at his comments.  I find no mention of public protests elsewhere at the time.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

The protest still occurred, and Obama's pugilistic statements were cited.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

For pity's sake man, it was Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal.  Doesn't that mean anything to you?  You are tenaciously holding to a point of view which is not borne out by the facts.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Officials in Musharraf's cabinet also condemned Obama's statement.  


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

That's correct.  And here it is:


"It's a very irresponsible statement, that's all I can say," Pakistan's Foreign Minister Khusheed Kasuri told AP Television News. "As the election campaign in America is heating up we would not like American candidates to fight their elections and contest elections at our expense."

Munir Ahmad AP - Aug 4 07

And that's all he said, incidentally.  Wow, what a shocker.  Is that what you are basing your entire thesis on?  That Obama is responsible for the instability in Pakistan as a consequence?  That and a staged demonstration of a hundred and fifty pro-jihadist activists in Karachi?  Good luck.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I did not make that argument.  I simply noted how Obama's relationship with Pakistani officials is not exactly amicable.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:32:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

It's a tough neighbourhood, Pakistan, as today's events have clearly shown.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

You betray a lack of understanding, it seems.  Who else but jihadists, with the possible exception of Musharraf, which seems unlikely, would be motivated to assassinate Benazir Bhutto?  And in what parallel universe do Obama's remarks in August have any weight or relevance to the pre-existing and current crises in Pakistan?  Where does one start?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:56:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Bhutto's advisor just alerted CNN to the vigorous opposition to Bhutto within the state apparatus.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Yes, that's very likely.  There are jihadists both within and outside of the government, particularly in the military.  Didn't you read the quoted articles I cited for you above?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I don't think a member of the military apparatus necessarily has to be a jihadist in order to resent what Bhutto represented: increased civilian control of the government.

As you're fond of reminding us, it's a mighty complex situation over there.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Very true, but jihadists are well represented in the military and intelligence establishment.  It seems from the modus operandi of the attack that jihadist connections bore at least tactical responsibility for the operation.  There is no evidence that the security apparatus was involved, at this early stage, either.  As you pointed out there is no clear demarcation within the ISI or army on ideological grounds that would identify a jihadist from a more traditional coup plotter.  Yet the weapon of choice was a suicide bomber.  I am not making an accusation, just noting the potential range of suspects is wide and uniformly opposed to our interests.

You may have noticed that the perpetrators of the previous suicide bombing attack on Bhutto and the PPP have not been identified.  I doubt we will see an early or credible investigation of this attack either.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I agree with your logic, I'm more saying that we don't know enough to actually rule out suspects yet.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

But we should not assign blame before the results of an investigation are published.  And besides, officials within a state apparatus who may plot an assassination may utilize the very tactics of a suicide bomber in order to lend the event the appearance of a terrorist attack.  To blame jihadists or any particular group for the assassination is frankly impetuous.  Moreover, it is a debased, indeed mindless, repetition of the statements issued by McCain, Romney and Giuliani.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I am not ruling out jihadists within the state apparatus, far from it.  Given that a suicide bomber was involved it seems a very reasonable assumption that jihadists are involved at some level.  Debased and mindless?  I don't think so.  It wasn't the Girl Guides, that's for sure.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Thank you for finally admitting that your argument rests on a set of assumptions.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

My argument rests on the fact that Hillary's AUMF vote was directly and irrevocably causal in the circumstances surrounding Bhutto's assassination my slippery little friend.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I read the articles you cite, and I do not believe the claims articulated therein serve as incontrovertible evidence for your claim.  Besides, allies of Musharraf also blame "the terrorists."


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

My only claim is that Obama is not responsible for the instability in Pakistan.  I thought I did a pretty good job of refuting that.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I am sure you find everything you type satisfying.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Always a pleasure to do business with you, TruthTeller.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:55:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

If you had taken the trouble to read the articles I cited up-thread you would understand that the resentment of certain extreme elements in Pakistan towards the US is a long-standing fact of political life there.  To attempt to conflate this attitude with Obama's remarks in August is fallacious and disingenuous as I have attempted to demonstrate with selected citations.  I doubt your motivation to get to the truth of this matter, which is difficult at best of times with Pakistani politics.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

I simply cited Obama's statements as a counterpoint to Axelrod's allegation.  


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:28:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Well compared to the incontrovertible reality of the direct consequences of the AUMF vote I reckon you were grasping at straws.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

You should try to restrain your allegorical impulse.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod (none / 0)

Good, then we are done here.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

What is shameful is Obama's campaign blaming another US Senator for the assassination of Bhutto.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

If he's going to be that crass, he could at least blame a Republican Senator!


by hwc on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Obama blame a republican??


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 03:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

you and Axelrod will have a hell of time showing a causal connection.


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Between the invasion of Iraq and the deterioration of our interests in Pakistan?  Really?  If that is not self-evident the damage to our national psyche is deeper than I feared.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Way to rephrase the statement to benefit your false arguments

Axelrod made a direct link to the AUMF and Bhutto's death. And that's just not there. The political machinations that placed that leaded up to Bhutto's death had nothing to do with the AUMF vote, but all with Bush moronic foreign policy machinations by setting up Bhutto as PM against Musharraf wishes, Then dropping her when Musharraf replaced the judges and declared the state of emergency.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:17:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

False arguments?  You don't see the causal relationship between the AUMF vote and invasion of Iraq and our inability to prosecute the 'war on terror' against the perpetrators of 9/11 holed up in Waziristan?  You don't see that the commitment, one might say over-commitment, of our forces to a military operation in Iraq has forced us to rely on our 'ally' Musharraf to neutralise these enemies, which Pakistan has totally failed to accomplish?  You don't see that the war in Afghanistan is negatively impacted by the al-Qaeda and Taliban sympathisers coming across the border from Pakistan?  Sheesh, man, so much for your career as National Security Advisor.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Wait a moment, how could we have fought against the perpetrators of 9/11 holed up in Waziristan?

You don't think that musharraf would allowed multiple brigades openly fighting in his own country? Do you?

So you are saying we invaded the wrong country! That we should have started with Pakistan! as that is the only way we could have neutralized those AQ & Taliban fighters without relying on our 'ally' Musharraf So how would that have impacted Pakistan? Don't you think that the result would've been rather worse for Pakistan then they are now? Wouldn't that result in something like the situation like Iraq? only this time with WMD used in combat?

Gee... my career as a National Security Advisor seems more promising then yours I'd say.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

We relied on Musharraf to prosecute the war against Waziristan, that's the point.  If we hadn't attacked Iraq our options would have been a lot wider.  I think it would have been reasonable, for example, to request cross-border operations in Waziristan prior to 2004.  As you may know the sovereignty of Waziristan has been disputed since Pakistan's independence on the basis of previous treaty's with the British.  It is only in 2005-06 that the federal  relationship of Waziristan with Pakistan has included parliamentary representation.  At the time of the first Waziristan offensive it would have been quite reasonable to have conducted joint operations with the Pakistani Army and Frontier Forces in that region.  That window of opportunity has now passed.

Al-Qaeda now seems to be firmly ensconced there and since well before the Red Mosque siege an American military presence in Pakistan would be disruptive to Musharraf's position.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 03:10:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Please post the whole quote, not an excerpted one.  There are ellipses all through that shit.


Sean Robertson
by Sean Robertson on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:29:01 PM EST

This Diary is Misleading (none / 0)

One of the interesting things that happens at MyDD (and DailyKos) is that people want to post a diary about the latest "news" as soon as it happens. I like that as a general matter. It makes these sites a good place to check on the latest news.

However, one of the downsides of overeager diarists trying to post the latest news is that they often present their instantaneous opinion/judgment of that news...without really thinking much about the news. I think that is what has happened here.  

Set this diary aside please, and go back to the original news source upon which it is based. What Axelrod was evidently asked about was whether Hillary Clinton would benefit politically from "a renewed conversation about foreign policy" that might arise as a result of today's news.

Axelrod's reponse was: no, she would not benefit from a renewed conversation about foreign policy.  Is anybody surprised that he (or any of Clinton's opponents) would say this?

Axelrod then repeated what the Obama campaign has been saying for a long long time: namely, that Clinton showed bad foreign policy judgment in voting for the AUMF. He repeated for the umpteenth time the mantra that the Iraq war caused the US (and all its allies) to take its eyes off Al Qaeda, the real culprits behind 9-11, allowing them to escape and regroup in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and that is one of the reasons that Pakistan is in distress.

Now...I am not surprised to find Clinton partisans trying to twist these words into the notion that Obama is "blaming Clinton for the death of Bhutto," but for those remaining in the reality-based community...twistings are twistings.  They aren't the truth.


by Demo37 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:32:53 PM EST

Re: This Diary is Misleading (2.00 / 1)

it was a classless move and the campaign deserves whatever ridicule it gets .

How about just letting the question go , reporters are going to want to play that game and a responsible campaign that is not fearful of its position on national security to the point of paranoia would just easily have said lets not politicize this and waved the reporter off.

it was not the greatest point of his campaign.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Diary is Misleading (none / 0)

BTD is CLEARLY not a Clinton partisan, which makes your point lose any relevance here.  

The quote speaks for itself.  


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Go Back To Original Source (none / 0)

With BTD (who I am fine with...and mean to cast no personal aspersions), it seems to change quite frequently.  If it's Thursday, he must be for...Clinton?

In general George, I think we are in agreement on at least one point: go back to the original source and quote...and decide for yourself.

In the meantime, why don't we all try to spin this to our respective candidates' maximal benefit? And get the MSM to promulgate that spin?  


by Demo37 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually... (none / 0)

FWIW, Obama is not my favored candidate. (He is my second choice.)  


by Demo37 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your Particular Questions (none / 0)

I will leave it to an Obama supporter to "defend" (if they so wish) Obama's absence in the Senate on the Kyl/Lieberman vote, and his several years in the Senate wherein he proposed nothing particularly different on Iraq.

My read of these is that Obama was exercising what might be called "Obama-style political pragmatism." (He wants to have his cake and eat it too.)  

One of the phrases that is sometimes associated with Obama is "trimming your sails."  I think he does more of this than I am presently comfortable with.  In my estimation, his heart is progressive, but his actual actions tend toward the center...and unnecessary compromise. He starts the bargaining too far to the center...which might explain why he is my second choice.


by Demo37 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Diary is Misleading (none / 0)

Love how you buy the republican frame that this was al queda without any evidence.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:19:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Diary is Misleading (none / 0)

oh wait, it was a terrorist, so by default becomes al queda --

isnt that bush framing?


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

Um...I assuredly am NOT saying this.  

Where did you get the idea that I was saying that the assassination of Bhutto was carried out by Al Qaeda?  

Just the opposite: the assassination of Bhutto was likely carried out by Musharraf and/or his security forces (ie the army).

As I posted an hour or so ago in a better diary on this matter, I think Biden had the best response to this development, and I think the netroots should push his perspective, and push it hard.

Here is what I said in part:

IMHO, the number one question...the question that we in the netroots should push with all our might (such as it is) into our mainstream media...is exactly the question that Biden is pushing very strongly in his statement:

Who actually killed Benazir Bhutto?

A second, closely-related question is: why wasn't Bhutto better protected by Musharaf's security forces?

In order to answer these key questions, again, Biden has it right: the United States must push for a fully accountable and transparent investigation.  (Yes, we do have considerable leverage.)

With what little information we have today, I would start with the assumption that Musharraf and the security forces were behind the killing of Bhutto. He and the security forces are suspect number 1.  Keep that in mind when you read quotes from Bush, Giuliani, Romney, McCain, etc.  

A question for them and the talking heads on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox:  if our ally Musharraf did this, should we hunt Musharraf down as "an enemy of democracy?" Or, should we continue giving him (and his friends) billions of dollars in funny money...as we have been doing for many years now?


by Demo37 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Welcome stupid Obama statements. (2.00 / 1)

Clinton fans calm down. We need lots of stupid claims like this.It makes the Obama camp look like asses. It's so blatantly transparent and preposterous. So go right ahead Axelrod and see how much good it does you outside of the Obama groupies.


by ottovbvs on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:41:55 PM EST

Hillary too (none / 0)

Both the Obama and Clinton campaigns are trying to take advantage of this situation.

Evan Bayh also made a statement saying we need Hillary now more than ever, because of this situation.

What shameful politics.


by Progressive America on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:50:25 PM EST

Re: Hillary too (2.00 / 2)

What the hell?  Why are you lumping a simple comment that leadership is needed now more than ever with a statement that Clinton (and obviously even more so Edwards for co-sponsoring the AUMF) are directly responsible for this assassination?   With all due respect, you can't equate the two items here, not by a long shot.  Yet, you still try.


by georgep on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary too (none / 0)

What are you talking about?

Hillary's campaign is trying to take advantage of the assination. That's pretty shameful politics in my book.


by Progressive America on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary too (none / 0)

if evan bahy saying we need experience now more than ever is shameful, then you should have so much outrage over axelrod blaming clinton for the assissnation that you would turn away from the obama campaign altogether.

your outrage should be through the roof, and quite frankly, by your posts, i can tell you are full of shit


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary too (none / 0)

I said Obama's comments were shameful too. I'm not supporting his campaign nor Hillary's. It's time to reject the politics of fear.


by Progressive America on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

I'm an Obama man, and agree that Axelrods comments were in response to a reporter's questions.

Still, he should have been more careful here.

I think he was a bit too eager to crush any perceived political gain to the Clinton camp---indeed, Clinton surrogates have cast this event as a reason for Clinton over Obama---a perfectly legitimate claim, even if I disagree.

In that sense, Axelrod's remark were equally legit, if ill-advised.


by Louverture on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:58:39 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Although the Obama campaign has not denounced Axelrod's statements, they did modify them.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Link to the modification ?


by Louverture on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

Damage control.

It just shows me that his campaign knows it was the wrong thing to do.

It was a dumb move to try and compensate for his candidates lack of experience.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Watch CNN.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

I appreciate that you are being fair.  However I don't think you can use a comparison of leadership ability to blaming another candidate for an overseas assassination.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Mollie, please be fair here. No one blamed Hillary for her death.

Obama blamed Hillary and others (and has been)  for our overall problems with Pakistan, which now, yes, includes the killing of Bhutto.

This is completely different than arguing that Clinton has blood on her hand.


by Louverture on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

I don't think it's "completely different."  I think it's, at best, one step short of explicitly blaming her.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

This whole bru-ha-ha has the smell of after 9/11 when people were pointing out that American policies had resulted in blow back, and everyone was indignant in saying "how dare  you." The truth is they were right. The same is true here. American policies- of which all Amereican leadership including Obama I might add- are to blame for these conditions as much as those in pakistan are to blame.


by bruh21 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not it is the same thing (none / 0)

Axelrod tried to smear Clinton by blaming the assassination on her "and others". That was a very low blow and I hope he pays dearly for it.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not it is the same thing (none / 0)

Except for the fact that since starting in the Senate Barack has voted for ALL funding.


by SocialDem on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Fact is, I detect political maneuvering from both camps that ought to take a back seat right now.


by Louverture on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:00:43 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Even Bayh was the FIRST to try to gain political advantage from this event:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 007/12/27/535372.aspx

To the extent Clinton surrogates are claiming that this even strengthens the cases for Clinton, Obama's camp is well within its right to counter....indeed, they must.


by Louverture on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:16:53 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

This wouldn't happen under my watch is different then, the other candidate caused this!

And Fyi, I agree with Bayh, that's why I support Biden.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Team Clinton sought political advantage first (none / 0)

Even Bayh was the FIRST to try to gain political advantage from this event:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 007/12/27/535372.aspx

To the extent Clinton surrogates are claiming that this even strengthens the cases for Clinton, Obama's camp is well within its right to counter....indeed, they must.


by Louverture on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:18:49 PM EST

sorry but Bayh is not a Clinton (none / 0)

surrogate and calling for experience leadership in the face of this instability is NOT the same as blaming Clinton for an assassination, which is EXACTLY what Axelrod was doing.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's wrong to turn this political (none / 0)

BUT, he's right that our policies have helped create a place where new blowback in the form of Pakistan will hurt us in the future.

That doesn't excuse the crass politics, but I would've preferred  you focus on the largeer issue of Pakistan than what the campaigns are doing.

On the bright side, this is plus for Clinton going into next week. Most people, like with 9/11, will not think about how American policies aid and bed the creation of these crisis situations at home and broad.


by bruh21 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:42:45 PM EST

Re: He's wrong to turn this political (none / 0)

"Most people, like with 9/11, will not think about how American policies aid and bed the creation of these crisis situations at home and broad."

As always, ignorance a plus for Clinton.


by Louverture on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's wrong to turn this political (none / 0)

You should not confuse my reflection on the realities of the situation with accepting Sen. Obama can claim clean hands in this. Where was his leadership? He's good at the verbiage. Real leadership, not so much.


by bruh21 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He didn't say our (none / 0)

There was no "our" ... it was simply a weak, sissy hit job on Clinton.

The Obama campaign can't even do attack right.  They look like sissies.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Honestly its hard to make up (none / 0)

something stupider to say today. The impropriety alone is bad enough, but then having the sheer gall to try to link her death to another campaign.

This is just a dumb move no matter how you slice it.


by okamichan13 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:02:58 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

He didn't blame Hillary for the assassination--he blamed her for the mess in Iraq and the resulting consequences around the world because of the war and the war vote.

Those who voted for Iraq should be held accountable.


by aiko on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:26:51 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

Oh, the Obama 'general issue' dodge.

Axelrod made these statements in direct response to a question about today's assassination, not some general question about the region.  Most human beings would have the instinct to respond with dignity.  Axelrod's instincts were 'how can we spin this against Hillary?'


by Canaan on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Which makes Axelrod a slime peddler.  This remark should get him dismissed off the Obama campaign.


by georgep on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 02:01:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

The queen of interpretation of verbiage has spoken. Let us all stop, and listen to one of BO's disciplines. We all know that what they say is God's (BO's) gospel.


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

More from Axelrod:

Later, Axelrod seemed to back away from his earlier statements. "I believe our policies in Iraq have had a direct impact on events in Pakistan and Afghanistan, but I would not suggest there is a straight line relationship between the events of today in Pakistan and anyone's particular vote," he said. "What I was pointing out was the difference in judgment at the time. Obama thought that the war would have a negative impact in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and that seems relevant right now."

He also told CNN that he "certainly wasn't suggesting Sen. Clinton was complicit. She made a bad judgment on this war, and the war helped exacerbate problems in Afghanistan and Pakistan. And that's certainly something I would stand by."

He is digging the hole deeper.  Obama needs to lower the curtain on this guy, fast.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:47:22 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Axelrod's not running for President, Obama is.  Here's what Obama himself had to say:

"It's a tragic situation. My heart goes out to the families. But it's an indication that we are in a dangerous world right now that we have to apply good judgment in our foreign policy," said Obama.

"We've been distracted by Iraq. We have not been paying attention to Pakistan for several years and as a consequence we have had a subversion of democracy at the same time we have ignored or at least not dealt with the growing threat of Islamic militants in Pakistan. If anything, Iraq has helped to spur some of the militancy in Pakistan. Now moving forward we have to send a message that we stand strong with the Pakistani people in moving the democratic process forward but we have to continue to press, to deal with this on going chaotic situation with the militants in Pakistan."

When asked how he would react to this situation if he were president today, Obama said, "I think it's too early for us to know exactly what the situation is. Obviously we have to figure out who will take responsibility for the assassination."

"I think one of the things that I would immediately do is to contact not only Musharraf but those in the military to determine how the security and the safety of nuclear weapons are being dealt with. That is something that obviously has to be the number one priority during a period where there may be instability and we have to make sure that that is being dealt with."


by Piuma on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

Axelrod's not running for President, Obama is.

Is this the standard by which you judge representatives of the other campaigns, as well?  Is it okay if Mark Penn makes all kinds of sleazy accusations, so long as Hillary takes the high road, because "he's not running for President"?

The first step in demonstrating the ability to lead the country is demonstrating leadership over one's own campaign.  Axelrod has created a huge mess for Obama to clean up and he had better get started.

Many of the Obama supporters here seem to have trouble grasping the notion that their candidate or his campaign could EVER be guilty of poor judgment.  In your case, when Hillary vaguely alluded to her experience in her response, you deemed it worthy of a negative comment.  Yet when Axelrod came out with a far more inappropriate statement, all you could say is "let's talk about whether he's right."  Do you not understand the problem here?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Personally I'd would prefer is none of the political consultants ever spoke on camera - they're not good at it and when they do the normal process of filtering their advice through a candidates own judgment disappears.  That's why I personally rarely talk about what a consultant says as speaking for anyone but themselves and didn't go crazy of the Mark Penn cocaine reference as somehow speaking for Clinton.  

But let's not get carried away.  David Axelrod has not created a huge mess despite the hyperbole you and others have tried to create by using such emotionally tinged terms as blood on her hands.  I don't think it was the smartest thing to say at the time though I agree with his basic premise.  But when he was talking he was speaking for himself in his words, not in Obama's.

And that's the difference between what is going on in this diary and the quote I posted that you mention.  I would ask you the same question, do you not understand the problem here?  The candidate herself brought the issue around to herself within the first hour of the news being released. Not Mark Penn who I would expect it from, but Hillary herself.   I went through an article where no other candidate talked in those terms except her.  I found it interesting.

But I was speaking for myself not some mythical bloc of Obama supporters.  It is part of the toxic nature of this site, that good people eventually get sucked making the comment you did, that when I initially say let's at least look at the comment in context, your response is "you and objectivity aren't in the same solar system".   So I guess you and I are no longer capable of conversation.  


by Piuma on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Agreed. He does, however, need to shut up.


by bruh21 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (2.00 / 1)

There's no question that it was crass for Hillary to even allude to a campaign theme in this context.  But I think this will turn out far worse for Obama than Hillary, and rightly so.  If Obama doesn't even express concern over Axelrod's statements, there's no question but that he owns them.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axelrod Blames Hillary For Bhutt (none / 0)

Yes.  I didn't read a single Clinton supporter defending Bill Shaheen.  The universal response from   all of us was 'that guy is an idiot, get rid of him now.'  It will say a lot about Obama if Axelrod is still around tomorrow.  Can't Obama afford to let his main campaign hitman go?


by Canaan on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 11:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axe (none / 0)

This is probably the most incisive analysis of the Axelrod scandal available online.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:49:51 PM EST

Re: Obama Advisor Axe (none / 0)

Taylor Marsh is a hack. Next.


by Lawdawg on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor Axe (none / 0)

You know how this works truthteller, when all else fails blame the Clintons.


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:29:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A little perspective (none / 0)

TPM covered this story earlier today.  Covered, in the sense of "cut and pasted quotes", mind you.  Nevertheless, their reporting gave a misleading headline and a much more exonerating account of the exchange between Axelrod and the reporter.

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/12/ob ama_adviser_bhutto_assassination_reminds _us_that_hillary_made_wrong_call_on_iraq _war.php

The headline of the story (on TPM) made me wonder if Obama is panicking a bit, but a closer read made it clear that the blogging on this has been lazy at best.


by the mollusk on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:54:09 PM EST

Heh (none / 0)

My lord you Obama supporters are hilarious.
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Barry Obama and stick ball (none / 0)

Now would be an excellent time for Barry Obama to tell us all how his playing stick ball in Indonesia at age 10 has especially repared him to be President of the United States.

We are all ears Barry.

Do tell.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:27:10 PM EST

I agree with Axelrod (none / 0)

The war in Iraq was a diversion from Afghanistan and al Qaeda. We are seeing the effects of that in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. Al Qaeda's resurgent in all of those places. Now a powerful force in Pakistan and stronger than before the Iraq war. Al Qaeda are prime suspects in the assassination. That's what Axelrod said basically. Did a force authorization for Iraq lead to those things? Yes, I would say so. Wes Clark and others have said so all along. Clinton, Edwards and the rest of the candidates who voted Yes to the IWR helped bring along the security situation in Pakistan which ended Bhuto's life today. They should be held accountable.
by zac on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:29:47 PM EST

Re: I agree with Axelrod (none / 0)

And what about the President?  And the American people who supported the war?  Is it Obama's position that America caused the Prime Minister's death?

Most of us are feeling the shock and pain of this great woman's assassination.  She didn't leave Pakistan after the first attempt on her life.  She had to know she was going to be killed, but she stayed.  That is what most of us are feeling today - horror, pain, sadness and admiration for her astonishing courage.  Axelrod's behavior was soulless, calculated, warped and disgraceful.


by Canaan on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Advisor (1.75 / 4)

Obama and his campaign have 'no class.'  NO CLASS AT ALL.


by reasonwarrior on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:36:41 PM EST

Re: Actually it was Obama's fault (2.00 / 1)

I think you're fantasizing most of this chain of events.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 01:55:46 AM EST

Re: Uh no. (2.00 / 1)

I can't even argue with this level of delusion.  You seriously think Obama's comments caused a state of emergency within Pakistan?  Come on, you must be smarter than that.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 02:14:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not my point (2.00 / 1)

I do find Axelrod's comments 10 times worse.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 02:18:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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