Clinton and Obama Tied Atop South Carolina

Looks like Iowa and New Hampshire aren't the only states with tightening races in their Democratic caucuses and primaries. Check out the latest numbers out of South Carolina:

CandidateCBS NewsSurveyUSAPollster.com
Clinton344137.6
Obama353929.3
Edwards131713.4

Note that SurveyUSA only included the three aforementioned candidates in its poll and that while CBS did poll other names, no candidate other than the three listed above came in with more than 1 percent support.

No doubt this is going to be a brawl over the next few weeks, with several possible outcomes -- perhaps as many as 18 permutations of results out of the first three states, though probably a bit less -- depending on what happens over the next 13 days before Iowa, what happens in Iowa, how the ABC News/Facebook debate shakes out after Iowa, and what happens in New Hampshire. Some of the top prognosticators may still believe that we still have a significant favorite on the Democratic side, but looking at the numbers out of the early states and the vast number of possibilities, I just don't see it anymore -- I just don't see any candidate holding a greater than 50 percent shot at getting the nomination at this point.



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Re: Clinton and Obama Tied Atop South Carolina (2.00 / 1)

While its far from over, with the campaign going into a bit of a holiday lull (ads about christmas instead of, say, implicit shots at each other's honesty), we're pretty close to it, closer, I think, than the actual 2 weeks suggests.  I don't think the next 2 weeks have room for the type of movement we've seen the last 2 weeks.

While no candidate can feel like they have a better than 50% chance of winning, I have to think Obama's campaign is feeling best of all.  Pollster's regression analysis shows him now holding a 2-pt lead in Iowa, where his organization has been lauded.  He's sky rocketing up in NH and Hillary is plummeting, with the race now within 5 and the trends setting up for him to pass her before the primary (and that's barring a game changing moment like, say, the results of the Iowa caucus).  He's trending up in SC, only down 8 per pollster but that will probably narrow even more once this data is put into the chart (its not up yet).  In Dec, Obama has been within the MOE with Clinton, or ahead (!), in every poll in SC save 1, a CNN poll.

So we have what is at best (for Clinton) a greatly narrowing race in all 3 states; at worst, Obama leading in Iowa, 3-5 points away or even tied in NH, and tied in SC.  And Obama has all the upward 'mo.

Edwards also is showing some upward momentum too in all 3 primary states, which makes one wonder if this could turn into a 2-person race between Obama and Edwards post Iowa.

Certainly Clinton wouldn't drop out, but if she gets 3rd in Iowa, which is certainly possible, no matter what the order, I'd expect Obama and Edwards to get big boosts in the other early states, which, coupled with their already-present upward mo, could propel both them past Hillary.  Crazy thought.  One caveat on that, though, is that if 1 candidate absolutely buries the other 2 in Iowa, obviously, (s)he would probably be the only candidate to get a boost.


by mopper8 on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:49:05 PM EST

Re: Clinton and Obama Tied Atop South Carolina (none / 0)

Clinton has a base of women voters that will keep her in this till feb 5th, she will not go away easily.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:59:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

South Carolina white (none / 0)

I had a conversation with a friend of mine in S.C and i asked her why isnt Obama not getting many white south carolina democrats to support him in those polls and she said Barack is paying the price for how Jesse Jackson ran his campaign in '88.

In other word , to those white democrats , Barack looks too much like Jesse and Jesse campaigned on the notion that "every black people should vote for me" in '88 and i guess many of them did not like the polarization.

The fact that he has the endorsement of Jesse may hurt him.

Those white voters just does not trust black candidates and Obama is paying the price for it....If he could get a bit more support from white voters , he would be running away with S.C.


by Prodigy on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:51:06 PM EST

Re: South Carolina white (none / 0)

again proving he can win white ones in  Iowa and NH is the key.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: South Carolina white (2.00 / 2)

I went to see Ted Sorenson speak tonight in Charleston, SC, who was stumping for Obama down here (he was great, by the way). There were about 60 people there, only about 10 of them African-American. I would also say that at least 80% were committed supporters.

Also, even though the Oprah gig in SC was noticeably less white than IA or NH, I would still say that about 10,000 of those attendees were white.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a decent amount of interest in Obama from white South Carolinians, although some of those are undecided still or consider him a second choice. The stuff about Jesse Jackson is not a factor as far as I can tell. That was almost 20 years ago, so only the oldest voters would have any residual feelings about that campaign.

Also keep in mind that among white dem voters, Hillary obviously outperforms Obama with women, and Edwards (native son, who killed here in 2004) earns strong support from many of the white dems. That is to say, many SC white voters are initially disposed toward Hillary or Edwards for reasons that have nothing to do with Obama.

In fact, I haven't encountered much of any anti-Obama sentiment here (I volunteer, so I do end up discussing Obama with alot of locals). Obama is the candidate that voters know least. His support, I believe, will continue to grow slowly as voters learn more about him. For instance, a few of the undecideds I spoke to tonight (at the Sorenson event) were extremely impressed, for one thing, that Sorenson hasn't stumped for a candidate since RFK. Support from guys like Sorenson is a good way to alleviate concerns about Obama's readiness for the job. If anyone would know what it takes to be president, it would be the guy who was advising Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. And, the fact that Sorenson (who is quite old, and effectively blind) is putting it all out there for Obama--when there are far more convenient and less risky things he could do with his time--means alot to some voters who may have there doubts.

Anyway, back to white SC voters: Obama also is very competitive among younger white voters. I would likewise note that Obama has strong white support among the most liberal South Carolians, from my imperfect viewpoint. In downtown Charleston (pretty darn liberal for SC), I see at least ten times more Obama bumper stickers and signs than any one else (that is partly because we have a better SC organization than others, though).

Finally, Obama has some key endorsements from prominent white SC democrats--for instance, Joe Erwin and Dick Harpootlian. Both of these men are past chairs of the SC Democratic Party, and Harpootlian seemed especially interesting to me because he isn't exactly PC on race issues (have a look here). If Harpootlian loves Obama, there's reason to believe Obama can cut through stereotypical racial politics. That's my spin, anyway.


by DPW on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 12:38:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is counting on black voters (none / 0)

to overwhelmingly break his way if he wins white ones early. That's how he catches up nationally, will it happen? who knows.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:52:47 PM EST

Re: Clinton and Obama Tied Atop South Carolina (none / 0)

I just don't see any candidate holding a greater than 50 percent shot at getting the nomination at this point.

As a matter of curiosity, have you put your money where your mouth is? The Iowa Electronic Market puts Clinton's chance at nomination at 56%; you've got a decent chance to make some cash.

http://iemweb.biz.uiowa.edu/graphs/graph _DConv08_jpg.cfm


by Pender on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 11:37:55 PM EST

Re: Clinton and Obama Tied Atop South Carolina (none / 0)

56% is not that much better than  50-50 Charlie Cook says she's at 60% and romney at50%  a long way from inevitbility.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 11:45:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton and Obama Tied Atop South Carolina (none / 0)

I think that Clinton's campaign probably feels pretty good right now. They have have several really good news cycles in a row. Further, the entire body of polling evidence suggests that she is a bit resurgent. She is part of a jump ball contest in Iowa, is a bit ahead in New Hampshire and is tied in South Carolina. Measured against, say, August this is not great. But I think that a lot of people who were giving her eulogy a few weeks ago (even last week) are probably alarmed that their "Clinton plummeting" narrative is, at the moment, no longer believable.

I don't know if good news cycles are helping her numbers in early states or what. More likely, some people have given Obama a last look and decided not to support him.

As far as probabilities, I think that I would give Sen. Clinton a little better than even odds to win the nomination. This is based on:

1. She still has a very reasonable shot to win in Iowa.

2. John Edwards has a very reasonable shot to win in Iowa. If Edwards is first and Obama is third, which is possible, it's a new race and Obama is not part of it.

3. Even with an Iowa loss, I think that her institutional advantages in NH will probably produce a win for her there.

4. There are a lot of big February 5th states that it is hard to imagine voting for anyone else, momentum or not. New York and California come to mind.

Sen. Clinton really could lose all three early states and win the nomination. I don't think she will lose all three early states, but even so. She has more paths to the nomination than the other candidates. If Edwards finishes anything other than first in Iowa, he's probably done. If Obama finished less than first in Iowa, he's very badly hurt, especially if Hillary finishes in front of him.

Polls in Iowa, we are repeatedly told, are valuable in terms of discerning trends and not predicting results. If the composition of caucusgoers resembles even roughly those in 2004, it is not out of the realm of possibility that Obama could finish third. In fact, my prediction is: Edwards / Clinton / Obama.
 


by arkansasdemocrat on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 12:02:32 AM EST

if Iowa goes Edwards-Clinton-Obama (none / 0)

it would be a blow to Obama, but he would not go away, especially if the top three candidates are closely bunched together.

A distant third place would be different, but I think it's highly unlikely that Obama would finish a distant third in Iowa.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 08:50:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree with the part that she could lose all 3 (none / 0)

Obama is not going after NY on feb 5th, he is going to try nd win the nomination in the south and Midwest, states like Missouri and Goergia. Again black make up about 25% of dem primary voters nationwide if Obama wins the big 3 and they don't moove to him overwhelmingly I will be shocked.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 12:11:20 AM EST

the margins will be important (none / 0)

If Hillary doesn't win but keeps it close, she may be able to ride that out. A big loss in Iowa and NH would be more of a blow to her campaign, but she still is not going away.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 08:51:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton and Obama Tied Atop South Carolina (none / 0)

Since Hillary Clinton has come this far with all the negative press that Obama has not had to deal with and she is still 1st place in some polls, there is a real strength there that some people in high places have not been able to knock down... If they have not knocked her down by now, they won't be able to..  Obama hasn't had this test...


by my nickle on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 10:36:15 AM EST


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