New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win

Now we see what Bill Clinton was talking about when he said it would take "a miracle" for Senator Clinton to win Iowa. Look at these numbers. InsiderAdvantage/Majority Opinion brings us their latest poll out of Iowa, the first to be taken since last week's Iowa debate (it was in the field from Dec. 16-17.)

This poll is interesting because not only does it factor in second choices, but it also breaks down the vote among 977 likely voters (MOE +/- 3%) and then, within that group, a subset of 633 highly likely voters (MOE +/- 4%.)

Results are as follows:

Highly Likely VotersLikely Voters
Obama26.624.3
Edwards26.029.8
Clinton23.826.4
Other1412.1
Undecided9.57.4

Then when second choices (for those supporting candidates who don't meet the 15% viability threshold) are added in:

Highly Likely VotersLikely Voters
Edwards41.942.3
Obama31.129.4
Clinton27.028.2

As you can see, when second choices are factored in, Edwards is the clear winner, which has been conventional wisdom for a while. What would appear to go against the grain of conventional thought, however, is that Edwards performs better on the first ballot among LVs than he does among highly LVs, or to put it another way, the more the universe expands, the better Edwards does. That's not the way it was supposed to go down.

The internals of the poll are broken down into age and gender. Clinton remains the leader among women and voters over 65, Obama leads among the youngest voters and Edwards's support is more broad-based, although he consistently excels among male voters. One sign of trouble for Clinton is that when second choices are factored in, Edwards ends up beating Clinton among the demographics that favor her; on the other hand, Obama still beats Edwards among voters aged 18-29 and is competitive among the 30-44 age group after the second ballot.

Also, it should be mentioned that while undecideds make up 7.4 and 9.5% of likely and highly likely caucusgoers respectively, once second choices are added to the mix, undecideds are pushed, which appears to benefit Edwards. So, while I'm not convinced that Edwards would win as decisively as this poll would suggest, I do think, if these numbers are accurate, that at this moment he's slightly favored to prevail on January 3.

Update [2007-12-18 20:45:37 by Todd Beeton]:An interesting couple grafs from Yepsen in light of this new poll:

Proof of Edwards' uptick and Obama's jitters about him came Monday in Spencer, when Obama told a crowd: "Senator Edwards, who is a good guy, he's been talking a lot about 'I'm going to fight the lobbyists and the special interests in Washington.' Well, the question you have to ask is: Were you fighting for (citizens) when you were in the Senate?"[...]

It may also suggest Obama's internal polls are showing the Illinois senator has peaked. Some of Obama's people also suggest that a vote for Edwards is a wasted vote because he's a one-trick pony who can perform only in Iowa. They say Edwards has so little campaign infrastructure in the subsequent states that he couldn't capitalize on a win in the state, while Obama could. It's a suggestion Edwards strongly denies.

We also shouldn't forget that an Edwards surge in Iowa is actually really good news for Clinton, especially now that operation lower expectations is underway. At this point A. she's not expected to win Iowa and B. her best case New Hampshire scenario is a weakened Obama out of Iowa, which Edwards will happily oblige.

Update [2007-12-18 20:50:34 by Jerome Armstrong]:Insider Advantage now has a PR out about the poll, and from the looks of the topline numbers, it appears, if you want to take all your stock from one poll, that the pundits are not blowing smoke when they talk about the Edwards being the 'sleeper' in Iowa.

Obama's closer than it appears though:

Edwards leads with 30 percent in a poll of Democratic voters who said they intend to participate in the Jan. 3 presidential caucuses, followed by Clinton with 26 percent and Obama with 24 percent. When the sample was narrowed to the most likely caucus-goers, based on several questions, Obama leads Edwards by less than a percentage point with 27 percent, with Clinton in third place at 24 percent.

Edwards holds a significant advantage, however, among a group who could be key to the first contest of the presidential year: those who say their first choice is someone other than the top three. Under Iowa Democratic Party rules, candidates who poll less than 15 percent in the first vote at each caucus around the state are eliminated, and their supporters get a second chance to vote for another candidate.

Under both screens, Edwards leads as the second choice of these voters, with Clinton trailing Obama.

As for the Republicans:

The Republican race is a duel between Huckabee, with  28 percent in this poll, and Romney, with 25 percent.

Rudy Giuliani, who has led most national polls of the Republican candidates, garnered only is in 6th place in this poll, behind Fred Thompson, with 10 percent, John McCain, with 9 percent, and Ron Paul, with 6 percent, in addition to the two frontrunners.

...In the tighter voter screen, the frontrunners change places: Romney leads with 28 percent, to Huckabee's 25 percent.

There's been a number of news articles as well about Thompson making a late surge in Iowa. Not really here yet.  Just about two weeks to go.



Display:


Poll weighted? (none / 0)

I really wished the InsideAvantage pollster had looked for enough caucus goers to interview because the sample clearly does not reflect the 2004 caucus turn out.

Now , they claimed they weighted the result , but how do we know that???...Also , to what numbers did they weighted the result??.

Right now , all i kow is that their poll shows that the 17-44 demo is about 10%...This group was about 32% in 2004....How am i suppose to know he weighted those numbers?


by Prodigy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:28:25 PM EST

Re: Poll weighted? (2.00 / 1)

They definitely weighted their findings by gender and age.

It's easy to tell. If you just take the raw numbers from the men and women crosstabs, the actual survey results for the "likely" screen was:

392 men
585 women

32% Clinton
29% Edwards
19% Obama
13% Other
8%  Undecided

They've obviously "weighted" these raw numbers to reflect a different age and gender distribution.

All of the pollsters are weighting their samples according to some guess about the caucus turnout. That's why the polls are all over the place. Just look at the massive differences in turnout just between 2000 and 2004. Nobody knows what the target weights should be.


by hwc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poll weighted? (none / 0)

Jan.5-8, 2004 two weeks before the Iowa Caucus Howard Dean led Kerry 30%-18% in 1 poll and 23%-15% in another poll.


by allmiview on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poll weighted? (none / 0)

Please note everyone this poll was weighted by age, so this is the reason for the discrepancies with the gender poll numbers.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Believe it if it makes you feel good. Somehow I don't see it panning out this way and neither do you by the sound of your concluding comments. It's only just over two weeks away so it's not to find out. For myself I've given up interest in all the IA polls. They are so small, have wildly different screens and are very shaky predictors of who will turn out that their value is next to worthless other than telling us who the three main contenders are.


by ottovbvs on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:28:43 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

I wonder how this will play out in the media. Political Wire is reporting Obama in third according,to this poll with the meme that he's peaked. Even worse, there are internal polls from the Obama campaign saying he's peaked.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2007/1 2/18/has_obama_peaked.html


by world dictator on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 12:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your Title is simply a lie (none / 0)

What a piss poor job Todd. Let me ask you a question - do you believe in polling "most likely voters" because the voting pool only contains "most likely voters?" Of course not. The PREDICTIVE survey here, which the pollster would have to admit, is LIKELY VOTERS. The fact that all polls suck is of course a different issue altogether. But even assuming this is a PERFECT poll, the PREDICTIVE survey here is LIKELY voters, not MOST likely voters. This is basic polling. Your title is simply a farce and an embarrassment for this site.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:30:23 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

I'll stand pat ... Edwards, Clinton, Obama ... thats my order.

Edwards and Clinton have the more traditional base of Democratic support.  Obama has to hope the college kids come back or that the prof doesn't have another obligation that night.  

You also have to realize that other polls have Clinton with the strongest base of support among the "I am definately voting for" crowd, but I don' think it matters much.

With Obama's non traditional base of support he needs to be much higher in the polls.  He isn't.  He is looking like he can crash and burn and he knows it.  If he were confident he wouldn't be attacking Krugman, Edwards, and anyone else he today percieves as a threat.  

Edwards scores with the rural vote, the men, the unions, and the many repeat caucus goers.  

Clinton scores with the women, older voters, the working class, and the union.

Obama scores with the intellectuals, the 2 move stars that live in Iowa, and the handful of college kids that show up.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:31:16 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

That's what I've been thinking would be the order all year.

This poll is terrible news for the Obama campaign. (Of course, it won't be played that way since Insider Advantage weighted his demographic so heavily...)


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

You would base this on one poll?


by BDM on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just my own prediction (none / 0)

I voiced it earlier today well before the poll came out.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:23:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (2.00 / 1)

Hi everybody. Long time lurker ready to contribute.

Just wanted to mention that the internals provided in the crosstabs don't add up correctly. For ex, under LV, if you add the gender numbers for Obama, he only reaches 18.5%, which seems awfully low. The same happens with the age breakdowns. There must have been some sort of transposition in the original document.

Either the totals are wrong or the age/gender breakdowns are wrong. I suspect it is the latter. So we should really take them with a grain of salt, until we get corrected numbers, if ever.


by figoretto on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:38:33 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Good catch.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

This poll was weighted by age, not gender, so that's why Obama's numbers are higher.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:06:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Well actually the numbers may have been a bit weighted by gender too, but the point I wanted to make was that the age weighting affected the poll numbers to make Obama higher.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

it was weighted for age and gender (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/docs/In siderAdvantage_Majority_Opinion_Democrat ic_Iowa_caucus_poll.html) and I think the entire poll is useless. will elaborate below.


by along on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Yes, I clarified above. However, it was the age weighting that changed the gender demographics for everyone.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

oh, I replied before your clarification.

but why would the age weighting affect the gender numbers?


by along on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

That's what I thought too initially. But, if I multiply Obama's percentage in each age group by the number of  people in that age group and add everything up I get 181/977 for 18.5%. I still think there's something wrong with the breakdowns in general, unless I am missing something?


by figoretto on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Yes, they changed the age demographics to add more young people when they did the weighting.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Thanks. I am such an idiot. Must remember to fire up the neurons!


by figoretto on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:31:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

The crosstabs are the raw numbers from the survey. Like all pollsters, they adjusted or "weighted" the raw data according to some secret blend of 7 spices to reflect their guess about the actual demographics of the turnout on caucus night.

For example, based on what their respondents told them in the raw numbers, 60% of the likely caucus goers are women. However, if the pollster believes that the actual turnout will be 54% women, then they would scale back the weight from women in their survey and increase the weight of men.

Same thing with age. If they believe that young people are underrepresented in the survey, they would add weight to that demographic.

That's why the press release numbers don't match the crosstabs. In the raw data for likely voters it's:

32% Clinton
29% Edwards
19% Obama

That's why the various pollsters are all over the map in these state by state polls. They are all applying different weights. Some of them may even be applying weights to get the results their clients want. None of them release their target weighting.

Here's the problem for a state like Iowa. Do you use 2000 turnout? Do you use 2004 turnout? Or some heretofore never seen turnout model? Was the entrance polling from 2000 and 2004 even accurate? There is significant evidence that it was not.


by hwc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Yes, this is exactly right. In this case, I think their target group with weighting is much closer to the actual situation. Obama's numbers go higher with more young voters added, while Hillary's should drop a bit with less of the older voters. Edwards would remain about the same.

This poll is just as legitimate as any other.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

This poll is just as legitimate as any other.

Which is just another way of saying this poll is just as illegitimate as any other.

I've looked at the entrance poll demographics for Iowa in 2000 and 2004 -- they were wildly different. I don't think anybody knows how to predict the turnout. I'm sure that blind squirrel will find an acorn and be proclaimed "Iowa Pollster of the Year", but it will be from blind luck on their turnout model.


by hwc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome's update is utterly baffling (none / 0)

I ask you Jerome the same question I ask Todd, why do you find the "most likely voter screen" predictive here?
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:44:25 PM EST

Re: Jerome's update is utterly baffling (none / 0)

Todd was just going off of what they reported on RealClearPolitics, http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/latestpolls/index.html

I don't know why RCP reported the most likely screen instead of the likely screen, as the 'poll numbers' (though I'd guess it's cause they liked Romney's numbers more in the most likely voter polling). The graph I stole is of the 'likely' screen, which is what's usually reportable.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's update is utterly baffling (none / 0)

Well, boo on RCP. they should know better.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Todd... (none / 0)

those second choices numbers are for the second choice supporters only, so that's not added in.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:47:55 PM EST

independent voters (none / 0)

I am an Obama supporter, so what comes to mind with this poll is the role of independent caucusers.  That is supposedly a strength for Obama.  I am really just asking, thoughts?


by chrisbrandow on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:48:53 PM EST

Stick a fork in Obama ... He is done (none / 0)

Iowans will do two things in the next week or so.

They will settle down, stop flirting and go with their old steady which is Edwards.  That will be the emotional crowd.

Or they will look at experience and electability and go with Clinton.  That will be the cold hard pragmatic crowd.

Hope will go out the window either way.  Obama is done.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:49:16 PM EST

Re: Stick a fork in Obama ... He is done (none / 0)

Oh I really disagree, especially drawing from one poll. this is certainly not in line with any other polls I have seen.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stick a fork in Obama ... He is done (none / 0)

And the poll dates are 12/16 and 12/17; right at the end of the drug stories and the beginning of the madrassa narrative.  Wonder if that had any effect on the movement to Edwards.


by aiko on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stick a fork in Obama ... He is done (none / 0)

Amen.

All I know is IF Obama finishes in 3rd, he is finished!

Edwards would immediately be competitive in NH,SC, even NV.

Obama's BIGGEST WEAKNESS among Black voters is their apprehension that he can really win. Many who crossed over to him in SC (after Oprah's event) were 95% Clinton supporters.

They joined about after Oprah's message of HOPE.

If he places 3rd, Many of those African-Americans will go right back to Clinton.

This will turn into a two person national race between Edwards & Clinton.


by labanman on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stick a fork in Obama ... He is done (none / 0)

Edwards 2008
Obama 2016
by JoAnnCr on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

This is great news for Clinton as she wants to prevent Obama from winning the caucus.


by American1989 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:50:44 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Does anyone want to provide commentary, preference for candidates aside, on how an Edwards, Obama, Clinton placing would affect the race. I have two intial thoughts.

1. The story is almost quietly being bandied about that Clinton would much rather finish 3rd to Edwards rather than 2nd to Obama. I think there's some truth in this. I'm not sure Edwards can gain enough momentum to come back in NH. I know, there's the big swing from Iowa, but I think one of the stories that will be played if Edwards wins, regardless of how fair it is, is that Edwards needed to win and Edwards should have won considering how much time he spent in Iowa following 2004.

2. I'm curious about Edward's ability to stay in the race during the long haul. He'll get an increase in fundraising, but I don't know if it'll help him match Obama or Clinton. Also, public financing...eek!

3. Edwards doesn't seem to have the organization or connections in the Feb 5th states that Clinton or Obama has. This would make it seem like a majority of states are up for grabs

4. At the end of the day, how many people are going to want to vote for a candidate that accepted public financing?

I'm not trying to bash Edwards, lord knows I would prefer Edwards over Obama, I'm geniuenly curious


by world dictator on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:52:53 PM EST

I think (none / 0)

that the Clinton's want more than anything NOW to avoid an Obama win in Iowa. Of course a Clinton win is their preferred result but an Edwards win, even if they finsih 3rd, is the next best result.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think (none / 0)

A clinton third behind Obama- how on earth could that be a result they would wish given the dynamics of NH where it shows a virtual tie between her and Obama?


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think (none / 0)

Looking at the odd and desperate decisions made by the HRC campaign over the past 2-3 weeks, I think they are resigned to finishing third in Iowa.


by aiko on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think (none / 0)

I dont think this poll is terrible news for Obama and good news for Clinton (it definitely is good news for Edwards). Its just one poll, and its not as if Obama is lagging way behind here or anything. Also, an Edwards win is only good for Hillary if she finishes in second. If Obama finishes in 2nd and Clinton 3rd, then that would be terrible for her campaign. I dont see her holding on NH if she finishes in 3rd here.


by AC4508 on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 12:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think (none / 0)

thats why i asked the question- I dont get this bizzaro analysis how coming in third helps clinton. that sounds like spin run wild. i am the come back kid because  lost badly. why not then come in 4th or 5th- thats even better!


by bruh21 on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 09:30:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think (none / 0)

Clinton would obviously be better off winning Iowa or coming in 2nd to Edwards, but coming in third to Edwards winning is much better than 2nd to Obama because if Obama wins Iowa, he may very well run the table (just as Clinton might is she wins).  He may anyway, but it's a lot harder to do that if he doesn't win.


by BDB on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:40:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Totally Agree (none / 0)

I think Clinton has figured out she's going to have problems in Iowa.  This should've been obvious from the start - Obama represents a neighboring state and Edwards has practically lived there since 2004.  She got a late start and under a system she didn't really understand, although she had people who should have.  This is why Mark Penn's inevitability push was always destined to be crap.  No one is ever inevitable, the press makes sure of that.

If Obama wins Iowa, there's a good chance he'll sweep. The press love him.  He has lots of money.

If Edwards wins, it complicates things and probably leads to a longer primary process.  That's a much better outcome for her than an Obama sweep.


by BDB on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Totally Agree (none / 0)

she's having problems because she failed to organize there and she's been running since 2000. the idea that she didn't anticipate the importance of first in the nation is pretty weak. she simply didn't plan or organize for it, and it doesn't bode well for her in term of claims of her political smarts.


by bruh21 on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 09:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Edwards took a hit last Friday when the FEC ruled that all of his ActBlue money is counted as PAC funding and, therefore, not eligible for federal matching dollars.


by hwc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

I agree. Clinton would much prefer coming third to Edwards than second to Obama. With the shortened period between Iowa and NH, the only message getting through to voters from the MSM will center mostly around the Iowa winner.

If it is Edwards, he can only get a boost in NH. Does anyone have a good sense of whose supporters he will start attracting there? I suspect he might eat away at both Hillary and Obama, or mostly at Obama. Just a hunch, no data behind it.

If Clinton can't win Iowa then she would much rather have a surging Edwards and a possibly flat Obama in NH than the other way around. While an Obama win in Iowa could be devastating for Clinton, her small lead in NH going into the holidays, coupled with her institutional support would augur well for her in a context where the anti clinton votes are increasingly split.  


by figoretto on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Also, what fallout do you think will occur if Obama loses Iowa?


by world dictator on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 08:56:40 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

South Carolina becomes his firewall.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's a weak link it seems to me (none / 0)

if the reporting on Obama's reasons for weakness among A-As is that they do not think he can win. Coming to South Carolina needing to win seems the problem he needs to avoid no? BTW, there are alot of conclusions being drawn from one poll. Rather kneee jerk if you ask me.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:05:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's a weak link it seems to me (none / 0)

All he has to do is topple Hillary.

The black vote will decide betwee Hillary or Edwrads....He can always point out he finished better the Hillary.


by Prodigy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:09:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's a weak link it seems to me (none / 0)

Media will be kind to him if he bests Hillary by any decent margin.


by aiko on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's a weak link it seems to me (none / 0)

I agree BTD.  If Hillary places behind Edwards in Iowa (which would slow down any mo for Obama in NH) and wins NH, then I think the SC AA vote swings back to her. If however she stalls in NH and  Obama wins it, then SC goes to Obama.  


by Kingstongirl on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Obama just has to beat Hillary.....He will then take New Hampshire and South Carolina.  Hillarys ELECTABILITY argument will be gone.


by allmiview on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)

Obama has to finish on top of Hillary , PERIOD!

I believe she can not afford to finish third because Obama will be able to tell black voters he's more electable then Clinton and they will flak to him.

Edwards is so far behind in NH , in Iowa win would only mean a close race in NH.

If Obama or Hillary wins Iowa , they would win NH...Edwards is less certain to win NH if he wins Iowa.


by Prodigy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly wrong (none / 0)

imo. Obama needs to win. A second does not give him mo in NH. And it gives him a VERY viable Hillary alternative in Edwards. He needs to win, and frankly, he prefers Edwards 3rd. He wants Edwards OUT.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly wrong (none / 0)

It all depends on the margins. A second place finish could be seen as a win if the margins are large enough and Hillary is on the bottom.


by aiko on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:51:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly wrong (none / 0)

It's even worse for him because Obama is now expected to win Iowa, Hillary isn't.  A third place finish for Clinton would not be particularly shocking.  A third place finish for Obama would be.  A second place finish wouldn't be death for him, but I think it would now be seen as disappointing.

Clinton has a very strong New Hampshire organization.  If Obama doesn't get a bump out of Iowa, she should win NH.  

But even if she doesn't, I don't think anyone expects Edwards to sweep all of the primaries and so his win in Iowa means we're probably in this until February 5th.  That's not bad news for HRC who continues to lead nationally and has big leads in Nevada, Florida & Michigan (even though their delegates don't count), California, and New York.  

I'm sure Clinton would prefer to sweep, but she's done enough of this to know the most important thing is living to fight another day.  


by BDB on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (2.00 / 1)

I guess something could change over the holidays, but it really seems to me that Obama has lost the expectations game.  Of course, you can definitely overcome that by winning the results game.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:09:11 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

I'm not sure what you mean by "lost the expectations game". Obama is the clear front-runner and almost inevitable nominee at this point. I heard it on TV. Anything less than a win in Iowa and New Hampshire would be devastating to his momentum.

Clinton's campaign is imploding. In crisis. Finished. I heard it on TV. Nobody expects her to even show up in Iowa.


by hwc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Hwc, you're right. Chris Matthews told me so. LOL!


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Yes, that's basically what I mean.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (2.00 / 2)

InsiderAdvantage is the outfit that had Obama up by 8 or 9 points recently, aren't they?

I stick to my firm belief that I have no idea what's going on. And my less firm belief that nobody else does either.


by OrangeFur on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:10:49 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Sorry, that was another group. Nonetheless, I stick by my firm belief.


by OrangeFur on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

I share your belief.  I honestly have no idea what the order of finish will be in Iowa.  If I had to guess, I'd say Edwards will win, but honestly any order seems possible and, depending on what I read last, probable.


by BDB on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This poll looks useless (none / 0)

as Progressive America points out above, the second choice numbers are suspect.

Here is the question, asked of all respondents:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/docs/In siderAdvantage_Majority_Opinion_Democrat ic_Iowa_caucus_poll.html

2. If you are planning to vote for a candidate other than Clinton, Edwards, or Obama, and your candidate fails to receive the required 15% of the overall caucus vote in the first round of voting, and if the remaining choices were Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Barack Obama, which candidate would you vote for as your second choice? (Likely voters)
(emphasis mine)

But then the total number or respondents (977 LV) is unchanged. Did all respondents to the main question simply state their second choice? That would mean the results are entirely bogus.


by along on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:22:33 PM EST

No (none / 0)

I think they asked everyone to choose between Edwards, Clinton, and Obama. In other words, pretend like the race is just between those three, who would you support?

My only question is if those were added in or if it's a separate polling just between second choice and undecideds.

If that really includes everything, I'm even shocked and Edwards is going to blow everyone out of the water.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

but that's not the question (none / 0)

the specific question begins:
If you are planning to vote for a candidate other than Clinton, Edwards, or Obama...

then, you should pretend like the race is just between those three.


by along on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:38:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but that's not the question (none / 0)

We would assume Hillary, Edwards, and Obama supporters would stick with their candidates.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but that's not the question (none / 0)

I leaned Obama, but now I support Hillary.


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but that's not the question (none / 0)

The poll assumes Hillary, Obama, and Edwards all get 15%. So they say those supporters would stay in their corner and not switch to another. Why would they switch 15 minutes later if their candidate is viable?


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but that's not the question (none / 0)

Obama supporters may choose to caucus for Hillary or for Edwards before 3 JAN.  


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but that's not the question (none / 0)

What? The poll treats it like the caucus is now.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but that's not the question (none / 0)

The only reason why I asked before was that I thought Edwards' numbers were very high with second choices/undecided. But now it's looking more likely that it's accurate, as far as this poll goes. Of course the sampling size is small, so we'll see if more polling shows this in the next couple of weeks. If it really is correct, then Edwards is doing extremely well with undecideds and 2nd choices. It seems that might even be where the campaign battle goes right now.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but that's not the question (none / 0)

I can't see how this second-choice issue could be accurate. Even if only the Dodd, Biden, Richardson, and Kucinich supporters answered question #2, as hwc points out, they form a subsample of only 168 people. So the margin of error for THEM must be at least +/- 10%, making the added support of 12.5% for Edwards, 5.1% for Obama, and 1.8% for Clinton totally meaningless.


by along on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This poll looks useless (none / 0)

There is another problem with polling for second choice among the second tier supporters. The raw numbers of Biden, Richardson, Dodd, and Kucinich supporter are so small (just 168 combined) that the margin of error is astromically high (at least double digits) for that small subsample.

You need at least 200 or 300 or 400 people in a subgroup to get a decent margin of error.


by hwc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:29:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This poll looks useless (none / 0)

What is your opinion on if those numbers are just unviable candidate supporters or if they include everyone? My confusion is that the question is worded to make you think it would only include unviable candidate supporters, but it says the sample size is (977) still.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This poll looks useless (none / 0)

I honestly don't put enough stock in any of these Iowa polls to even worry about how they calculate their second choice answers.

The Iowa caucus results will be determined by which campaigns can turn out their "supporters" on January 3rd.


by hwc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:41:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

"Some of Obama's people also suggest that a vote for Edwards is a wasted vote because he's a one-trick pony who can perform only in Iowa."

Edwards is a one trick pony...a silky one trick pony.


by nerdoff on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:31:42 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Except that he is close in NH, won SC in 2004 and is close this time, and culinary unions would likely endorse in Nevada.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

I'm not sure. I just remember reading a very positive article or blog post saying the main thing stopping them from endorsing Edwards was they wanted to see if he could win elsewhere first. Supposedly if he wins Iowa, then they would endorse in Nevada. Hillary might win a couple small ones, but the big ones would go to Edwards.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

we'll see! goodluck! haha


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:50:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Pretty amazing how this thing worked out. Even with all the negative stuff thrown at Edwards, he still has high popularity and basically is liked by almost every Democrat in Iowa.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:34:09 PM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Yeah, I'm talking about the media stuff (hair cuts, hedge funds, big house, etc...). I mean they went on with that hair cut stuff for the longest time and basically everyone in the US knows him for that. Also keep in mind the media has been ignoring him for the large part besides these negative stories and he wasn't running campaign ads for a long time, so it's amazing to me that he's remained close in Iowa.


by Progressive America on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 09:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

My Predictions

Iowa

Edwards 38%
Clinton 29%
Obama 23%

This translate into a small victory for Edwards in New Hampshire

Edwards 36%
Clinton 32%
Obama 27%


by Djneedle83 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:54:39 PM EST

New Iowa poll ready for release soon (none / 0)

Im hearing from my source that WashPo is ready to release a new Iowa poll that will totally contradict this current poll.

I will not give up the numbers now...Stay tuned!


by Prodigy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:01:48 PM EST

Re: New Iowa poll ready for release soon (none / 0)

And when is this supposed new poll coming out?


by say no to plantation politics on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:18:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa poll ready for release soon (none / 0)

sometimes tomorrow.

Rasmussen is suppose to come out with a new Iowa poll tomorrow but i do not know whether it will also contradict the IA Iowa poll.

Some people have stated that the fact Edwards attacked Edwards means Obama is falling and Edwards is rising , but some of you may not know it was Edwards who launched into an attack on Obama and Obama only responded to the attack.


by Prodigy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa poll ready for release soon (none / 0)

You're sure about the ABC/washPo poll ?

And your source has sworn you to secrecy about all details---besides the fact that Edwards isn't leading?


by say no to plantation politics on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa poll ready for release soon (none / 0)

Well, makes sense since the previous WashPo poll came out on Nov 19; Wed is Dec 19.


by say no to plantation politics on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:46:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Which Edwards Do We Get in '09 Should He Win (none / 0)

My problem with Edwards is quite simple - I have no idea which John Edwards I get in Jan 2009 should he win.  

Do I get Sen John Edwards circa 1998-2004, a Southern Moderate who voted for the War in Iraq, Bankruptcy Reform, Agribusiness over Family Farmers, etc?

Do I get John Edwards circa 2004, the Presidential/Vice Presidential candidate who was so convinced in running a sunny optimistic campaign he would not assume the traditional "attack dog" role of a VP candidate?

Do I get John Edwards circa 2007-08 the angry populist who has assumed the most progressive positions in the campaign?

With Edwards I feel like I am on the latest jury and the case is being tailored to fit the evidence (views) of the day.  This may be smart politics but the inconsistency bothers me.

Neither Clinton nor Obama are perfect but I have a pretty good idea what I get if I support one of the two.

Clinton is largely a domestic progressive with a strong hawkish streak on foreign policy (which concerns me).  In many ways she is a modern Henry "Scoop" Jackson who ran for Pres in 1976.

Obama is a progressive with a strong pragmatic streak which is not necessarily a negative in my book depending on it manifests itself.  

Since I largely know what I am getting from Clinton and Obama I am choosing from the two of them.  Edwards inconsistencies bother me too much.


by John Mills on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:02:29 PM EST

Re: Which Edwards Do We Get in (none / 0)

This is also my biggest problem with john...Inn 2004 , he was a DLC type southern moderate , but now , he sound like liberal ted kennedy....Its very hard for me to take him seriously.


by Prodigy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This narrative may change (none / 0)

Iam amazed how so many poster's here are drawing conclusions from one poll,

This week will produce 2-3 more IA polls which may have entirely different results.

Rasmussen
Zogby
ARG

and probably a couple of other's.


by BDM on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please explain your theory (none / 0)

Everyone saw how Kerry ran the table after Iowa and assumes 2008 will be the same.  I think the way the primaries are front loaded makes that harder b/c without orgs in states like NY and CA the Iowa results will be hard to translate into other wins.


by John Mills on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:14:39 PM EST

The Middle Class and Economic Nationalism (none / 0)

If Edwards can define this election about fighting for the survival of the middle class and defending American jobs, he can win it all. When Dems can define an election about class they always win. And right now people are scared and angry. Harnessed anger can win elections when you tap into people's fears and give them hope and a direction to find it.


by cmpnwtr on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:40:40 PM EST

Re: New Wash. Post Poll (none / 0)

A new Washington Post-ABC News poll released Wednesday showed Obama with 33 percent support of likely Iowa caucusgoers, while Clinton had 29 percent and Edwards 20 percent. The poll found, however, that Edwards' backing might be more dependable because he had more support than Obama and Clinton from people who previously attended a caucus.


by BDM on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

previous caucus-goers (none / 0)

I think your point about previous caucus-goers is incorrect.
Here is the relevant passage from the ABC report:
Another factor at play will be how many newcomers show up. Among people who say they've attended a previous caucus, the race is a three-way dead-heat -- 26-25-24 percent for Obama-Clinton-Edwards.

It then goes on to detail the support of newcomers: "42-33-15 percent among those three."

It does say that Edwards would "benefit from low turnout by newcomers," which you can see is true from those numbers.


by along on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 01:21:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (none / 0)

Here's what I don't understnad. What is a "win" for Obama? If he places first in Iowa, but beats Hillary by 1%, is that a win? What about by .5? A win in my book is something that gives him enough to maintain momentum going into New Hampshire and SC. I just don't know by how big of a margin he has to win by in Iowa.


by mecarr on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 01:17:35 AM EST

Re: New Iowa Poll: Edwards v. Obama For The Win (2.00 / 1)

A tie would be a win for obama.. he is up against the most formidable political machine in a generation and a populist who has campaigned in Iowa for 4 years..
If Obama can eke out a 1 point win, it would be a huge upset.
by hawkjt on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 02:51:10 AM EST


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