Obama vs Populism

Edwards has "challenged" Obama, according to Axelrod, and now we've got a battle between Obama and Edwards over whether corporate drug & Pharma lobbyists should be invited to the table (Obama), or battled (Edwards), to enact healthcare reform.

Guess which side Paul Krugman comes down on: Anyone who thinks that the next president can achieve real change without bitter confrontation is living in a fantasy world.

Which brings me to a big worry about Mr. Obama: in an important sense, he has in effect become the anti-change candidate.

There's a strong populist tide running in America right now. For example, a recent Democracy Corps survey of voter discontent found that the most commonly chosen phrase explaining what's wrong with the country was "Big businesses get whatever they want in Washington."

And there's every reason to believe that the Democrats can win big next year if they run with that populist tide. The latest evidence came from focus groups run by both Fox News and CNN during last week's Democratic debate: both declared Mr. Edwards the clear winner.

But the news media recoil from populist appeals. The Des Moines Register, which endorsed Mr. Edwards in 2004, rejected him this time on the grounds that his "harsh anti-corporate rhetoric would make it difficult to work with the business community to forge change."

And while The Register endorsed Hillary Clinton, the prime beneficiary of media distaste for populism has clearly been Mr. Obama, with his message of reconciliation. According to a recent survey by the Project for Excellence in Journalism, Mr. Obama's coverage has been far more favorable than that of any other candidate.


Krugman closes:
So what happens if Mr. Obama is the nominee?

He will probably win -- but not as big as a candidate who ran on a more populist platform. Let's be blunt: pundits who say that what voters really want is a candidate who makes them feel good, that they want an end to harsh partisanship, are projecting their own desires onto the public.

And nothing Mr. Obama has said suggests that he appreciates the bitterness of the battles he will have to fight if he does become president, and tries to get anything done.

Obama is making a defense of it, in Iowa, but does that 'big table' talk actually appeal to any strong partisan Democrats that are in a populist mood?

Edwards did challenge Obama:

...an undecided voter stood and asked Edwards to give one reason why Iowans should back him instead of Obama in the Jan. 3 caucuses.

As president, Edwards said, he would be more successful in fighting the powerful corporations and interests that he says control America's health care system and other important areas.

Obama, he said, would take a more conciliatory approach. "He talks about bringing drug companies, insurance companies, oil companies ... to the table and working with them and negotiating and compromising," Edwards said. "I just think that'll never work. If that would work, it would have worked years ago. If that worked, we'd have universal health care. We don't...

You know, we've got a lot of good and talented candidates, we've got a lot of smart candidates, and we've got a lot of people with good ideas," he said. "But we need somebody who's ready for this battle."


Challenged him right on his own turf and his own terms, which Obama has played right into by defending having lobbyists at the table.

There is a solid frontal attack now that is working against Obama on both the political and the policy side. That is, he's not battle-tested for the general election against Republicans, and that he's not ready to battle for progressive reforms as President. The political side of the frame had been gaining a foothold over the past two weeks, and now we see the policy side gain a foothold, surprisingly, by Obama defending having the lobbyist groups at his table. The way it's framed, Edwards wins this battle easily.



Display:


Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Having fun?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:34:55 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Monday's are always terrific, we are due a slew of polls too.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Tester, Webb and Sherrod Brown (none / 0)

is all I have to say to dems winning swing states


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tester, Webb and Sherrod Brown (none / 0)

tarheel if your tagline is a real quote I am going to freak out.


by Trey Rentz on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Seriously. (none / 0)

How 'bout some analysis there, Mr. Armstrong? I though cut-and-paste jobs were discouraged on MyDD.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:43:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seriously. (none / 0)

Welcome to blogging.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the analysis (none / 0)

is that obama is now on the same side of the issue with Hillary...

at a time when the economy is becoming more important, people in their gut know enough that big oil and big pharma and HMOs are n't going to give up profit just to be nice


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the analysis (none / 0)

at a time when the economy is becoming more important, people in their gut know enough that big oil and big pharma and HMOs are n't going to give up profit just to be nice

allow me to project your argument into foreign policy:

"at a time when when national security is becoming more important, people in their gut know enough that iran isn't going to give up their nuclear weapons just to be nice."

are you opposed to meeting and negotiating with iran too?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 2)

Jerome, I "heart" you! Love the diary!


by lonnette33 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:38:02 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 2)

How come I never get this sort of encouragement from the Obamafans?


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:43:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

We believe in 'tough love.'


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:46:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

just not for lobbyists


by world dictator on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Perhaps if you worked with them and included everyone at the table, you could help end the divisions that are keeping this country from moving forward. You know, add a little kumbaya.

I've noticed empty platitudes and proper awe for money raised also helps.


by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Because HRC's supporters are a loving people.


by lonnette33 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:19:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

lol


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

what. hillary fans are extremely loving and caring people. just watch how much you love them when she wins.

you guys think +edwards+ has a good ground crew.
(hey I'm just being realistic here..)


by Trey Rentz on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

huh? i'm an obama supporter.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:50:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the holy obama inquistion (none / 0)

view you as a heretic

and believe you should be burned for your witchery.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Because you almost exclusively post on anti-Obama topics. Maybe if you had other interests, you would seem like less of a hack.


by AC4508 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Jerome -

These are some good points.

BTW: When do you think Edwards drops out? Before or after New Hampshire? Or does he stick around for Nevada?


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:42:27 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Not anytime soon, especially if he wins Iowa. If its a Clinton blowout, then in Feb; if it's Clinton vs Obama, he stays in all the way too, he could wind up with enough delegates to be holding the balance of power to decide the nomination.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:46:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Now that would make things interesting.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:47:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What if Obama comes in third in Iowa? (none / 0)

Just askin'...


by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:11:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that would be very bad for Obama (none / 0)

I don't think that a likely outcome, but it is possible, depending on how he does outside eastern Iowa.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if Obama comes in third in Iowa? (none / 0)

That would be a big blow for Obama, I think, in NV. He's doing well now as a soft first and second choice among voters who want an alternative to Clinton but if its Edwards, Clinton, Obama in Iowa, then I think those voters -- as well as some of the institutionalized support -- break for Edwards out here.

On the national level, I suspect that an E, C, O finish would be a big boost to Edwards' fundraising and with matching funds, Edwards would suddenly become a threat in Feb 5 states.

And, as I've felt for a long time, there's going to be a big question of what Clinton and Obama have left in the bank after Iowa; whomever finishes third may suddenly be at a financial disadvantage.


by desmoulins on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:45:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

New Hampshire will not win it for him because the independents are split between him and McCain.

even rightleaning indies are sick of war. mccain sings about bombing iran.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

we saw what happened when hillary blocked people from the process, insisting on a closed shop.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:48:27 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

precisely. but that's too obvious for ideologues to swallow: they prefer to live in a b & w world.


by CalDem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

which was the real problem for Hillary she didn't include lawmakers either.

if you include HMOs and Pharma we already know what they want profits


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

Why take on the industry lobbying and marketing power if you don't have too? The first attempt at Health Care Reform is going to be a compromise (I'm surprised Krugman is so unrealistic).

The fact the Edwards is not advocating for a single payer system tells us that.


by JoeCoaster on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

how did you feel when cheney ran his secret energy task force?

anything dems offer up will be subject to attack of course, but try to run a closed shop will only add fuel to their attack campaigns. that was the lesson from hillary's taskforce: openness inspires trust. secrecy does not.

when unions meet with industry, do they refuse to meet with ceos? just meeting with them does not mean unions will give away the store.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

i meant: when unions negotiate with industry....


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Confused (none / 0)

Edwards's health insurance plan preserves the private industry, it does not replace it with a government program. His rhetoric doesn't fully match up to his policy. He'll have to work with the insurance industry to some degree if he actually wants to implement the health care reforms that he proposes. Am I wrong? At least Obama is being honest and realistic about the fact that there will have to be conversations and compromises, as opposed to fully siding with the private health care industry up-front as Clinton seems to be doing. Listening to her talk about health care reform on th campaign trail, I can't help but feel that she's saying the only problem with health insurance is that the companies aren't making enough money, and more people need to be paying them.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:16:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Confused (2.00 / 1)

Edwards' plan does have a significant public component, which Obama's does not. Having that public component means that if it proves more efficient than for-profit insurance companies (as Medicare is and the VA is, on a cost basis) then more private insurance companies will have to cut their huge administrative costs, or lose customers. That leaves open a very real avenue for people to choose publicly administered insurance which over time would gain efficiencies of scale and move us towards single-payer.

Obama's plan would, as I read, it only perpeutate private for-profit insurance companies, albeit with help to make it more affordable for individuals.


by desmoulins on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:49:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the point actually... (2.00 / 2)

you have to approach them from a position of No Compromise, a position of strength. Then let THEM compromise. That's the huge difference between Edwards & Obama for me. Edwards really knows how to negotiate and is not afraid to NOT negotiate. He knows how to play hardball. You can actually sense that Obama doesn't.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Remember "Don't ask don't tell"? (none / 0)

Edwards promises to fight for Health Care reform remind me of Bill's promise to allow gays in the military. Clinton promised up and down that it would be the first thing he would do, and it was. He poo-pooed the major player's interests (the military) and issues the decree.

And then reality hit him in the face and he was forced into a bad compromise (that actually set the cause back 12 years).

Actually the same thing happened to HillaryCare but she was so inept that we did not even get a compromise out of it.  

Obama is living the the reality based world were you can't ignore the major players interest when you take on big issues. Let's not keep repeating the same mistakes, OK?


by JoeCoaster on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

face it Obama is a bad framer for (2.00 / 1)

progressive causes.

he has a ton of strengths but he frames things horribly like "playing chicken with the troops"


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:51:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

do you want to grease the path for movement? (none / 0)

of course big pharma and insurance lobbies are soul sucking bastards who deserve to be hung by their balls and flogged. it's one thing for us to talk this way, it's quite another for policy makers to do so.

you demonize corporate interests beyond all reason will only cause them to dig their heels in further, exacerbating their already inherent tendency to be obstructionists.

if you offer them a place at the table, maybe, then maybe we can get somewhere.

edwards' way reminds me of chinese handcuffs. the more you try to pry apart, the more we get stuck.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Anyone who thinks that the next president can achieve real change without bitter confrontation is living in a fantasy world.

strawman from krugman.

who says obama isn't ready to face bitter confrontation?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:51:13 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I reckon he's had a taste of it by now, don't you?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Yeah - my understanding is that Obama has faced down Hillary's henchmen pretty well so far!


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:05:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Oh, please what Bill Shaheen and the other "henchmen" were doing were concerned trolling, not an outright attack, which would have totally exploded in their faces.  You also have a classy enough candidate who was willing to apologize when she thought her people went out of line.  There will be no such apology from a Repub.  They will in fact find some way to make it an ongoing issue with the help of the media.  They've already made his full name a net negative and they haven't really started.   That was just the warmup. I don't think the big, bad, Repub slime machine cannot be defeated, but be prepared for more than what has been done.


by Kingstongirl on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

republicans relish sex scandals.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:58:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hah! (none / 0)

When has Obama ever had to run against a strong Republican opponent.  (And, no, beating Ambassador Batshit J. Crazee doesn't count...)

All his "tough" fights have been intramurals.  He knows how to run against Democrats.  If he and his people spend more time attacking Krugman than republicans, that speaks volume.

Obama doesn't want to piss off the moneyed interests.  THAT would be a bitter confrontation, and he has all but indicated he'll roll over to them.


by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:16:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (2.00 / 1)

I'm surprised your so confident after observing Hillary's campaign the last few weeks.  Now she's getting personal with a helicopter?  My kid watches better cartoons.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

Were a Hillary backer I indeed wouldn't be confident.

I'm backing the guy running as a Democrat.


by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

Cool, sorry I noticed down-thread, no offence intended.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

what helicopter?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

Chill.  It isn't black.  The Hill-a-copter.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

huh? i'm not getting the reference. must be about a story i missed.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:27:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

When has Obama ever had to run against a strong Republican opponent.

obama faced bitter corporate opposition when he passed healthcare in illinois. something krugman fails to mention.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 06:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Exactly.  Where does this notion come from that the only way to fight someone is to shut them out altogether?  Honestly, I don't think that's fighting at all.  You battle someone by looking them straight in the eye and showing them the courage of your convictions.  But this idea that shutting out those interests that have the biggest financial stake in health care reform is somehow going to keep them from influencing the debate is absurd.  You either give them a voice in the process, and demand some concessions in return, or you resign yourself to another slew of "Aww shucks" TV ads and the possibility of two more decades without real reform.


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

refusing to meet ones enemies - is the bush/republican position.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

It's a mainstream press fantasy that the Clintons blocked everyone out, including legislatures.  See these articles in The American Prospect, debunking this myth,http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti cle=the_hillarycare_mythology,  http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti cle=hillarycare_mythology_did_hillary_th reaten_democratic_senators.  

A lot of people, including the Clintons, made a lot of mistakes on healthcare.  But you cannot discount the fact that, contrary to what the Clintons were counting on, the Republicans decided they could not - and would not - compromise because healthcare reform of any kind could empower the Dems for years.  I doubt that analysis has changed much.  They'll say they want to work together on healthcare reform but in the end, they'll do everything to sink it.  Healthcare reform is bad for Republicans politically and there's no way they will go along with it.  I don't care how many seats you give them at the table.

Getting the history right I think is critical regardless of who the nominee is because I expect the Republicans to rerun their campaign against healthcare, with help from the drug and insurance companies.

I understand why as a campaign strategy the Obama campaign is using the MSM myths that healthcare reform failure was all Clinton's fault, but what worries me is that they might actually believe that.  If they do, then they are setting themselves up to fail.  The part of Obama's "plan" to pass healthcare that I think is most telling is saying he'd respond to those "Harry & Louise" ads by telling folks they were lying.  Well, gee, I'm sure the Clintons never thought of that.

The Republicans will fight healthcare reform tooth and nail.  It is a highly partisan issue because of the electoral benefits to Democrats should they succeed.  It is critical that folks understand this and not simply think removing Hillary Clinton from the process will make it better.  Whoever our nominee is will have a hell of a fight on their hands.  Democrats always do.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Argh, legislators, not legislatures.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

i've posted the mythology link several times when hillary supporters try to claim the entire project was her idea.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

If there is such a "populist tide" sweeping the country, why isn't Edwards doing better in national polls- he's been in the low to mid teens all year.  You have a very talented, well known candidate who has been solid and consistent all year on message and it hasn't caught on.  

On partisanship- you can keep believing that fighting the old battles the old ways will work (going on about 20 years now and still waiting) or you can try something different - smart partisanship.  They're not the enemy, they're people (well, some of them) we have to work with for the common good.  Like Obama said, you're not being realistic.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:53:45 AM EST

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

Compared to Hillary and Barack, much of it fawning, especially early on, Edwards has gotten very little media coverage. Yet Edwards is still a serious contender in the states where attention has been paid to the candidates and their message.


by Quinton on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (none / 0)

spending 5, 6 years in the state should overcome lack of media coverage.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

Probably because Time Warner, General Electric and News Corps don't feel it's in their interests to portay Edwards as a serious contender.


by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

Edwards is staying in the run.

Thats winning enough for having to put his own message out. The MSM has for reasons both obvious and not, been attracted to the "Inevitable, but hated HRC" and Barak Obama, who promises everything to everyone and nothing to no one.

When his message is heard, he is the front runner. His message will be heard, and agreed to and supported, across the political spectrum. "I will fight for you," is believed and understood and desired. "The system is broken," is believed and understood and supported. "The solutions to our problems are prevented by greed and corruption," is understood, believed and supported.

He answered the ten questions http://www.10questions.com/ because its all of one piece to him. It's even easy. He doesnt ever say to himself what do people want to hear, or - what does that community think I should say.

It has the ring of commitment, the solidity of values, the stuff of leadership. I can hear Bobby Kennedy in his words, but I feel FDR, America's greatest president. Franklin D. Roosevelt fought for you, for us for the U.S., fought.. Hard struggles, real battles against fascism rising in Europe and America, against the wealthy the corporations, and for America. But the America he built is the America of today, except for the fact we didn't listen to Eisenhower.

I will be sorry to see President Edwards go in 2017, and so will you. I hope he will have chosen wisely his Vice President.

This is a concern for me. I actually want Gore to be his vice president, but I understand why considering his age, that Obama would be a better choice. Obama could succeed him, Gore could not.


by inexile on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Obama is the "TRUTH".

People are jealous. Be honest. Don't hide behind any clumsy excuses and idiotic explanations.

Let's face it. OBAMA ROCKS!!!!


by win on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:55:51 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I just looked in Webster's.

"Truth" is not a synonym for "Hype". And "Rocks" is not a synonym for "speaks in empty platitudes".


by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:20:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I can't believe Axelrod walked right into that. Bringing together NASCAR and NPR fans together: boring at this point but nice. Bringing together Americans who have been royally screwed by our health "care" system and insurance/drug company lobbyists who have dumped millions into buying off our elected representatives to keep the former screwed: no thanks.


by alexmhogan on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:02:02 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

For Slugman, this is personal. Same with Jerome.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:04:26 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Obama can do no wrong. He's our savior. Is it me or is at least a certain faction of Obama's support becoming the kind of defensive reactionaries we commonly see from Ron Paul's support? We we talk about healthcare, or experience, or electability, it's not personal. We're picking the leader of the free world here.


by Christopher Lib on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:19:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Sorry...I was too busy watching Obama walk on water.

Whatever.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's Pin This Down (none / 0)

Health Care- OK
Experience- Undefined
Electability- Unknowable

And it is you.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:48:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

jerome wont answer me when i asked if his antithesis was fueled by obama saying "palestinians have suffered the most." does krugman have the same problem?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Are you actually serious about this?  Krugman has a problem with Obama because he's a Jew?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

howard dean got opposition simply for saying "even-handed."


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Stupid. Quit being it.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

you still haven't answered.

what's next, jerome? resort to calling obama supporters naderites like holden?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Let me get this right, it's something to do with Palestine you are asking?  And you think that's why I think Obama is worthy of a critical look? It all sounds as if you are a bit on the wacky side, really.

Grow up, and stop treating this place as your trash can, there are a lot of other places for you to behave childish.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

i wasn't the one name calling.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

nothing wrong with saying you oppose obama because you're afraid he would be too conciliatory in offering palestinians concessions.

that makes more sense than blaming oprah for bush having been elected.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here Jerome...have a blast (none / 0)

Of yeah, and I'll give Jerome some more ammunition since I'm not really concerned about him.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3389fa18-abf6- 11dc-82f0-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check =1


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:05:35 AM EST

President or Attorney General? (none / 0)

I was watching Edwards on CSPAN last night, delivering a speech in Ames, Iowa.  At first I was pretty impressed.  He was strong, forceful, his rhetoric sharper and more pointed than I've seen before, and although there he was a man worth 54 million dressed like a Union member it all was working.  Then he got to health care,  and tried to put down the idea of negotiating with the drug companies, suggesting you can't negotiate with them, that you need to fight them, and then said something like, "when I was a lawyer if I came up to the big corporations and said I want to negotiate with you they would laugh in my face.  You got to fight them, and that's what I've done..."

Sounds great but you don't accomplish passing bills as the President by taking everything to court.  The act of accomplishing things in the Government is the act of negotiation, not law suits.  Unless he's running for Attorney General, running as a national version of Jerry Brown who is transforming the role of California AG to concentrating more on corporate crime which pollutes our environment.  But as President, it is a false premise to say you can't negotiate with them.  You better be able to negotiate with them and win, not rely on taking it to another arena.  And what is he saying? In the area of his past when he was tremendously successful as a lawyer, his success was built on taking his clients away from the negotiating table and into the courtroom.  When he tried to negotiate, they laughed at him.  

As we know, as a Senator he was unremarkable.  He is not running on his record where his skills as a consensus builder was important, but on his record as lawyer making cases in front of 12 people only.  And look at his proposal for Health Care.  It is not going to be won in the courtroom - unless that is his plan, in which case we can kiss goodbye any reform in his first 4 years.  As preparation for negotiation, it is terrible.  As acknowledged by every pro-mandate economist, the individual   mandate is something the Insurance companies will demand to lower the risk ratio.  He hands it to them before sitting down - I guess that will stop them from laughing at him, at least not in front of him.  

And he fails to look two steps beyond to the door he is opening on all Government mandates.  In answer to why not a single payer plan,  he went on last night how it is a good thing for you to make the decision, not the Government,  between a private plan or a government one.  It should be your choice.   In a room full of supporters that played out unquestioned, but in a room of Republicans you can be damn sure they will draw a direct line from that reasoning to why we, not the Government, should make the choice on Health Care, to why we, not the government, should make the choice on Social Security vs. Private plans, and school vouchers which gives us, not them, the right to decide where our child is educated.  


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:05 AM EST

Re: President or Attorney General? (none / 0)

this extends into a way to foreign policy. refusing to meet the "axis of evil" is the bush position.

the axis of evil in this case being the insurance, drug & medical lobbyists.

how many times have democrats insisted meeting with ones enemies is Not capitulation? the same applies whether they are foreign leaders or corporate lobbyists.

obama is being consistent in his arguments. the others are not.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Obama will have to make the sale this week that he has the experience to be president.  The rest is silly stuff. Most people expect that corporate america is here to stay and has to be managed smartly and strategically rather than battled and conquered--especially on the executive level.  Krugman is carrying Hillary's water (pro-edwards writing helps hillary in iowa) right to finish line (as is Jerome). They say they are progressive but supporting Hillary is not my definition of a progressive. She's a hack--a main stream dem hack.


by aiko on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:24 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Another strawman from Obama supporters- "if you say that you must fight that means you are anti business." No it means you realize that the  interest alligned against you aren't interested in compromise. There is a difference, and Edwards outlines it well.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:08:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

refusing to meet will only make lobbyists more determined to obstruct.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice try (none / 0)

on the "a vote for Edwards is a vote for Hillary" meme.  What happens when Edwards wins Iowa.  Who is Hillary's main challenger then?


by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No Main Challenger (none / 0)

Edwards gets a boost, but it isn't big enough to beat Hillary in New Hampshire or any of the major February 5th states. Maybe he takes Nevada, if he gets the Culinary Workers. Obama maybe wins South Carolina, then fades away. Hillary is our nominee.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:31:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

The beauty of the argument is that it works as well against Clinton as Obama.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:51 AM EST

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

I take comfort in knowing that you are almost entirely preaching to the chior.

IMHO, you are dengerously wrong and so is Krugman.  The beneficiary of your Obama-bashing is most likely HRC.

Doubtless you will keep bashing for as long as Edwards has a pulse.  I sincerely hope I do not have to say I told you so if Edwards ekes out a narrow victory in Iowa and then gets rolled up by the Clinton machine.

You obviously are a proud and stubborn ideologue who is willing to bet everything on a low odds strategy.  I am a progressive, pragmatist who is tired of good, loosing causes.

As has been said before, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I have put forward variations of this post on at least five or six threads.  You have never been unwilling to engage me on the substance of my argument that Obama has a much better chance of stopping HRC than does JE.  Why so reluctant to engage?  Perhaps you are smart enough to know that the available information is overwhelmingly on my side.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:08:21 AM EST

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Typo:  Should have said "you have never been willing"


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

Let me ask a question- because personally what I am getting tired of are posts that call any disagreement "hate" or "bashing" -- language by the way that plays into victimization of the candidate- is there any criticism that wouldn't call bashing or hate? Just curious because this diary is a substantive critique.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:10:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

The reason I call Jerome's approach bashing is because it is nearly universal.  He twists any and all Obama statements or actions into something he can find fault with.  He is always prepared to assume the worst about Obama.

Substantive criticism about specific policy positions or statements is fine. But that is not Jerome's modus oporandi: he consistently takes selective quotes and then parses them in ways that twist them beyond all recognition.

I stand by my conclusion that he is an idealogue more than an analyst.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

I really could careless about whether Jerome criticizes 100 percent of the time or 50 or 10. THe question is whether his crticism is right. Period.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Neither you or Jerome seem willing to discuss my central criticism which is that JE's chances of stopping HRC are a mere fraction of Obama's.

Progressives need to think strategically rather than getting caught up in this stupid food fight.

My frustration with Jerome is his unwillingness to engage in a substantive discussion.  He seems much more inclined to keep posting criticisms of Obama that distort his record, his proposals, and his campaign.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

it's because I don't care about your thesis. You aren't answering the critique about a presidential candidate- so you are in essense changing the subject.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 2)

"...You obviously are a proud and stubborn ideologue... you obviously don't read much about what I written or done, which is fine, live in your fantasy.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Nice substantive response.

Still ducking I see.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:56:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 2)

Look, I don't agree with Jerome about Obama either but there's really no reason to attack him personally.  He's laid out his concerns regarding Obama and why he thinks Edwards makes more strategic sense.  This post is completely consistent with those views.  Probably time to agree to disagree, since we won't know whose right in their approach till the election is over.  

Also, even as an Obama supporter there's no doubt in my mind that JE is capable of beating HRC and certainly capable of beating whoever the GOP nominee is.  He's a good candidate in his own right and a very decent man.  We're lucky to have such solid candidates this go round.


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:35:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

I agree that JE is a very strong candidate in the genearal election, although I am worried that he will be defensless during the late spring and summer because of the matching funds problem.

I disagree that he has much chance of winning the nomination.  That is my central point.

None of the Edwards supporters have been willing to discuss this issue.  I think their reticense is telling.  The bulk of the available information is strongly on my side of this argument.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Well, I agree with you that both Obama and Hillary have a better chance of winning the nomination.  But if we assume that Edwards is a strong GE candidate, it's fair to say the party will be just fine if he DOES manage to pull it out.  Regardless, I think it's a lot more interesting to discuss why your preferred candidate would make the best president than to focus on what their chances currently are in the horse race.  But that's just me.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

he wont answer my palestinian question either.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, Edwards will adopt comprehensive health care reform without listening to any input from drug companies, HMOs or lobbyists.

If you like this kind of nonsense campaign bluster, then I guess Edwards is your man.


by snaktime on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:50 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Another thoughtless post- tell me the history of healthcare reform in this country, and then tell me which of the two candidates is living off of fluff and fantasy from their supporters.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:11:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Obama says he'll talk to everyone.  The assumption by Jerome and Krugman (and I guess, you) is that he will therefore cave in to the health insurance industry and not get anything progressive accomplished.  Obama supporters, like myself, think that he'll stand firm and get something significant, if not perfect, accomplished.  No way to know, objectively, whose right till someone wins the nomination and the GE.  

Edwards healthcare plan is great and I like him as well as a candidate.  Like all the others' plans, however, it's never going to become law.  The legislative process, even if we get to 55 or 56 Democratic votes in the senate, is going to require flexibility and negotiation.  Edwards says those negotiations won't include healthcare related business interests.  Edwards supporters view that as smart and pragmatic.  I view that as unrealistic, since negotiating purely with OTHER DEMOCRATS, with our big tent, is goign to require the next president to at least listen to the healthcare industries views.  Again, no firm way to KNOW whose correct till somebody wins.

 


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

It's not an assumption. It's based on what Obama has said and done. Look- don't do this. by this I mean telling everyone think yo think is real to justify your choices. Back in 2000 no one thought Bush could have done what he has done or in 1980 with Reagan or 1932 with FDR or on and on. Your argumetn is just not correct. The substantive critique against Obama isn't whether Edwards will achieve all his goals or not- its whetehr Obama gives up before trying. We simply can't know what you assume as fact before we have even tried.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:43:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I don't follow you at all.  My entire point was NOT that my assumptions, which I labeled them, are correct and yours are not.  It's that they are BOTH just that -- assumptions.  

Edwards history as a Senator doesn't establish that he'll be able to accomplish sweeping reform without compromise.  If he wins, I nonetheless hope that past history ends up being meaningless.  But neithr of us can prove the strategy he's advocating will or won't work.  That's just a basic, philosophical disagreement.  

As far as Obama's history proving he "gives up before trying," I have no idea what you're talking about.  His history in Illinois shows he's quite capable of brokering compromise to achieve progressive reform.  You obviously view his more consensus oriented approach as weak, but haven't provided any evidence to substantiate that view.  I'll readily concede that you and Jerome may end up being right that his approach will prove strategically unsuccessful.  But arguing that that's a fact is just silly.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

your assumption should be based on factual analysis. labeling it as opinion doesn't mean you get to ingore facts. so when  you say you dont understand- my point is as i just described. his history in the Senate-w hat is that? you like doing what I call denial of parts that bother you. I dont need to do that with Edwards- i like him good and bad- what is Obama's record in teh senate and while now running for the presidency? thats what i care about. on SS or healthcare etc.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about now.  You disagree with Obama's APPROACH to SS and healthcare.  Fine.  His goal remains the same as Edwards.  We disagree on whose strategy is superior for achieving those same goals.  Explain to me what "facts" exist to prove you're correct?  Here's a hint -- there aren't any.  

To try and answer what I THINK your direct point is, Obama hasn't accomplished much of anything in the limited time he's been in the Senate.  Primarily b/c this democratic congress as a whole hasn't been successful.  None of the other big three candidates has a track record of accomplishment either, including Edwards.  That's a negative for the field, although I like to think it's one of the reasons they're all running for president:  to accomplish something impossible in a different role.  

If you have any substantive criticisms, I'd be happy to discuss them.  At this point, however, you seem to just be raging against Obama without any particular rationale.  That's ashame, b/c I thought you were legitimately inviting a real dialogue.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

he has accomplished anything because he's running as a centrist. leadership does in my book require sucess- it requires the ability to out on a limb when its not easy or clear that you will suceed. you make a lot of excuses for him, and that's why you can't accept the criticism of him without resorting to the tactics we've seen along this thread. as steve m says- many of you by your own actions are acting in a telling way about the criticism about of obama. you keep sayiing you dont get the point- but frankly i think you do.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

The major piece of legislation he has passed while a US Senator is his ethics reform bill, the toughest legislation in that area in 30 years.  We now can find out easily who is getting government contracts and who is responsible for earmarks.  In other words, we the people now have the ability to "follow the money".

What is centrist about that?


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

he missed the vote on Iran, he voted for funding, he's been unable to voice critique of SS without using prhases that are GOP esque (and I do think there are problems just not a crisis), he has a healthcare plan that is basically tailor made for the i ndustry and big lobbists, he regularly has attacked 'secularists,' he uses the language of bipartisanship (which really means left give up, right doesn't and any one following US history knows this for the last 30 years). Sadly I can go on so you keep saying he's not basically centrist if that makes y ou feel better- but i do have evidence of what he is. i support him as my second choice but under no illusions about who he is and how he will govern.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

If you would just read what I've already said, I think you would find that your criticism of me is misplaced.  I understand Jerome's point AND I respect where he's coming from.  I simply disagree with it and reject its underlying assumption.  I may be wrong -- time will tell.  

Not sure what you're trying to prove my arguing that your criticism and Jerome's is objectively accurate.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

This article by Krugman does highlight my uncertainty of choosing Obama.  I am afraid he doesn't have the fight in him he needs to a) beat the GOP, and b) get some shit done if he's president.

But I have no choice because I ain't gonna back a Mark Penn-advised neoliberal-on-trade DLC corporatist.  No fuckin way.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:58 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

There are an awful lot of great basketball players who did not trash talk but let their game do the talking.  Things are accomplished in Government through consensus building, not fighting.  Government is the art of negotiation, something which Edwards has admitted he does not do.  It is not what he has made his reputation on, it is not what he is skilled at, it is not what he is proposing to do.  He will fight for us, and accomplish nothing unless he can take everything into court.  It is trash talk, bluster.  And when the opening tip happens, the Republicans, the big corporations and their lobbyists will drive right past him while he cries foul.


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:17:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

EXACTLY (none / 0)

The candidate who is living in a fantasy world is the one who thinks that bitter confrontation is possible when you never even face the other goddamn team. Edwards wants to deal with health care reform the same way that Bush deals with Iran.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

This sounds verbatim like the excuses made for the Dems' current lack of progress.

That statement could have been made by Harry Reid.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards vs Obama (none / 0)

I've been shocked to hear how confident those Obama advisers and aids are sounding....I just hope this is born out of very good looking internal polls.

Just on this article alone , axelrod said something like "Our bus is heading north while his was heading south".

Edwards is now engaging Obama more aggressively and this can only mean that some of the polls who have Obama above 30% may be into something.

The Edwards strategy was always to leave Obama alone because , according to my sources in Iowa , Edwardians believed many white Iowans would never vote for a black man with a muslim name and he was a lightweight at best...This is why Edwards never wasted time going hard after him , but it seemed like things have now changed and my guess is that the Edward's advisers are rethinking about their old thinking that Obama wasnt going anywhere.

Pollster.com and realclearpolitics average are giving Obama an edge and the next few Iowa poll will be very decisive.

Also , i have heard that in 2004 , one of the clearest indication Kerry was going to win was the fact that his townhall rallies was packed up while the other candidate townhall rallies were not....So keep in eye on who's packing it up in Iowa and who's not.

Obama is traveling western Iowa which is very conservative and it's also where Edwards is at his strongest , and according to my sources , Obama is seeing more people in his western Iowa townhalls the he did earlier this year....Maybe it's just that people want to give him a final look , but if that is the case everywhere , Obama may indeed win this.


by Prodigy on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:17:37 AM EST

Re: Edwards vs Obama (none / 0)

This post, a couple of months ago in response to a substantive critique, honestly could have been written by a Clinton supporter. What of the substance of the critique? Honestly, I don't know who you support- and don't care- just an observation about the nature of the analysis.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jeromes diary (2.00 / 1)

Every time I read Jeromes diary about Obama it is some dig or negative piece.

This makes me think that Jerome is really worried that Obama WILL WIN iOWA and run the table. If he was not worried, he wouldn't be writing these diaries.

I have not seen a diary from that has been critical of Clinton's or Edward's policies or type of campaign that they are running. He has not commented on the Shaheen story or Bill's hit's on Obama OR cLINTON'S CHANGING POSITIONS ON ISSUES. Iraq war AND THE lIEBERMAN/kYLE AMENDMENT.


by BDM on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jeromes diary (none / 0)

I really could careless of what you think of Jerome and his posts. The question is what do you feel about the critique as posited not just by Jerome but others. It's telling that you are fixated on the messenger rather than the message. Whatever you t hink of Jerome- he's not the one running for President of the United States, and even if you were 100 percent right, the question is about whether substantively can you respond to the criticism without distortion of his position or those of others?


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:39:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jeromes diary (none / 0)

He is a commentator and I think it is fair to comment on his diaries as being biased. He attempts to be neutral and is not. If he took a position oR support for a candidate, I would answer his criticisim's, but all of his diaries are dig's and to me not substantial critiques. Especially when all of his diaries are critiques of Obama AND NOT OF ANY OTHER CANDIDATE.


by BDM on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jeromes diary (none / 0)

It's awefully easy to respond to a criticism by pretending as you do that its about the person criticizing your candidate. This is the same game played with Krugman. If this is what we have to look forward to for the 4 years of Obama- been there done that, dont want to see it in the Presidency again. Respond substantively to the criticism.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards vs Obama (2.00 / 1)

Edwards is now engaging Obama more aggressively and this can only mean that some of the polls who have Obama above 30% may be into something.

I don't doubt that Obama is doing well. Who knows, he may even win. However, this was more strategic. Edwards picked the terrain and the frame on which to work against Obama, I'm sure he's happy believing it will work.

If you look, it was in response to a oft-asked question that Edwards receives, "why him instead of Obama," and his policy-political frame about it being more of a battle than a kumbaya moment wins imo.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards vs Obama (none / 0)

Jerome we will have to see if you are correct or not. So far this has not been reflected in the poll's.


by BDM on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards vs Obama (none / 0)

He's worked hard, and successfully, to make that terrain and frame his own turf, what else would one expect him to do?  He has just as much at stake here as Obama.  Good for him, I never expected Edwards to go without a fight and he has the long-shot now.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:31:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards vs Obama (none / 0)

He was forced into that terrain and frame from the day that Obama announced.  Without Obama in the race, he would be just about where Obama is now- slightly left of HRC.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am sick of hearing stuff like this (2.00 / 3)

The Edwards strategy was always to leave Obama alone because , according to my sources in Iowa , Edwardians believed many white Iowans would never vote for a black man with a muslim name and he was a lightweight at best...This is why Edwards never wasted time going hard after him

I am tired of Obama supporters repeatedly suggesting racist assumptions on the part of the Edwards campaign.

According to other Edwards volunteers I know, voter contacts outside the larger cities showed Obama far behind Edwards and Clinton over the summer. If the Edwards campaign did not believe Obama had a strong chance to win Iowa (and I am just speculating, I am not privy to internal discussions), it was for that reason.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:37:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am sick of hearing stuff like this (none / 0)

Well , i have some people on the ground in Iowa and they are all stating Obama has improved his numbers in rural Iowa lately.

The numbers seems to make the case for this...His poll numbers among 50+ demo have improved and his overall Iowa poll numbers have gone from being in the low 20's to the high 20's...3 different Iowa polls have showned Obama support in above 30%.

When you think about it , Obama does not have to run neck and neck with Hillary or Edwards in rural Iowa..All he has to do is make sure he's not wiped out in those western towns and from what im hearing , he has no way but up to go in those towns because he was so low.

My sources are tellig me he will definately pass the 15% threshold in most of those town which contradicts what you are still saying which is he will get murdered in those rural area.

There's no way a candidate can be polled above 30% and still not be viable and the majority of those precinct.

Even the well respected des moine register have his numbers going up , so logic would tell you that his rural numbers must be going up also ?...Dont you think?


by Prodigy on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

a few points (none / 0)

Many rural precincts assign fewer than 4 county delegates, which means that the viability threshold is higher than 15 percent (it's 25 percent if there are 3 delegates, 33 percent if there are 2 delegates and 50 percent if there's just 1 delegate).

I don't know whether Obama is above 30 percent. I only saw the internals for one of those polls, and the age distribution was off. But even if he is above 30 percent in Iowa, he isn't necessarily gaining evenly across the board. I'll bet he has gained more in urban and especially suburban areas than he has in rural areas. I'm going by what I have heard from people who are out canvassing.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: a few points (none / 0)

I've seen at least 3 poll showing upward movement among the 50+ demo in favor of Obama..Yes , Edwards and Hillary still runs better then him , but he's movinng upward which is all he needs right now

...Some people conncluded that it was maybe the social security rhetorics and ads which caused this uptick among older voters because they want to hear more about the candidates plan on the social security matter.

The Des moines register also shows this uptick.

Like ive stated , Obama may not run neck and neck with Edwqards among older rural Iowans , but i also do not think he will be completly anahilated like you are still claiming.

You've also claimed that Richardson has more support then him in your precinct and maybe you're right since i cant verify this claim , but i dont believe Richardson is running better then Obama in those western towns...When i told some of my people in Iowa about this obsurd claim , they were laughing..They all stated that its very hard to find Richardson supporters in their town...They've told me that most non-viable supporters of the lower-tier candidate , are already pounding a switch to the more viable candidate...Expect to see some movement soon as those supporters looks for new stable homes.


by Prodigy on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards vs Obama (none / 0)

"Edwards is now engaging Obama more aggressively and this can only mean that some of the polls who have Obama above 30% may be into something."

I think if you notice from the article, it was Obama who picked this particular fight. Edwards line about fighting, not sitting at the table was always directed at Clinton. For some reason Obama decided to pick her mantle on this issue, although with a much weaker health care plan.


by alexmhogan on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Does anybody else (none / 0)

find Hillary's new meme "The Hillary I know" as little odd?  Given her reputation as a panderer...  The Hillary campaign has a big slogan problem this cycle


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:28:37 AM EST

Oh an Drudge (none / 0)

is having Hillary not looking so well...http://drudgereport.com/


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:30:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh an Drudge (none / 0)

The chopper must have shaken her up a bit.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:32:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

can't be good for (none / 0)

the hair


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:34:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

cheap shot (2.00 / 2)

You do your candidate no good when you resort to cheap shots like this. How would you like to be photographed at all hours of the day? Think there would never be an unflattering shot of you?


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Several Million (none / 0)

people will see the picture today... It shows the toll a campaign takes.  you don't have to take it as an attack, but a commentary.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:43:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh an Drudge (none / 0)

DO NOT LINK TO DRUDGE

Anytime someone links to drudge, a demon gets its wings.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

HaHa (none / 0)

I found that funny


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:43:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh an Drudge (none / 0)

That's a bullshit picture and it's been altered. Hillary doesn't have that many wrinkles. Say what you want, she looks damn good to be 60 years old-without all the botox and stuff. The picture isn't real at all.


by lonnette33 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does anybody else (none / 0)

how many faces of hillary are there?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does anybody else (none / 0)

ind Hillary's new meme "The Hillary I know" as little odd?  Given her reputation as a panderer...  The Hillary campaign has a big slogan problem this cycle

what do you mean her reputation as a panderer? i'm not getting the tie in to "the hillary i know" ad.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does anybody else (none / 0)

Lobbyists know a very different Hillary than Iowans


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does anybody else (none / 0)

oooooooh


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does anybody else (none / 0)

that would make an excellent parody ad.

exxon: the hillary we know

morgan stanley: the hillary we know

citibank: the hillary we know

saudi royals: the hillary we know


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 2)

I'm going to try to stay objective and not take the juvenile "obamafans" bait.

Here's what I see re universal healthcare.  It's very simple - big business and doctors SHOULD support it (talk to a doctor sometime about what THEY think about the current system).  With the right person leading the push, I think they will.  Get them into the tent, and the drug and insurance companies have a very weak hand.  Maybe some small overtures are made to them, and national healthcare sails through.  Maybe they dig in their heels, and get washed away to sea (along with the ardent conservatives).

Is it a slam dunk that this works?  No.  But I think it's our best shot.  A nice side benefit would be perhaps driving a wedge between business and the GOP, since businesses (especially those that compete globally) hate the current system.  You can look at the North Carolina GOP to see what happens when business isn't in the GOP tent.  And the state Democratic Party is still pretty darned progressive, especially for the South.

On the other hand, you can have "Fighting John" Edwards, who is despised by the medical community (fair or not) and has done his best to portray himself as actively hostile to business interests.  I suppose he can try to impose his will, Rovian-style, but I suspect he fails.  He also showed no particular legislative skill as a Senator to indicate that he can win such a battle.

I think it goes without saying that Clinton still has "HillaryCare!" baggage from 1992-93, and she makes an easy bogeyman for a political fight like this.

Ironically enough, this is pretty much the EXACT pitch I made for Mark Warner when he was flirting with a run.  He had an even better hook b/c of his time as Governor and past career as a successful businessman.  Jerome and I were in agreement then, LOL.

Obama is the best person left to fit this role.  Substantively progressive, but doesn't come across as unreasonable or dogmatic.  Earns the respect of people who disagree with him.  A welcome change from the Bush/Rove "50 percent plus one" strategy of divide and conquer.  I find that style of governance distasteful, and I don't think it would work for us anyway.  The Democratic tent is bigger (which I think is a good thing), and harder to drag around by the nose.

Might President Obama find his opponents digging in their heels, and refusing to play any constructive role?  Maybe - but Obama will then have the moral high ground to push back, and push back hard.  And once that happens, people tend to side with who they like and trust - and that will be Obama.

This is the vision that I have for Obama.  Many of you have a different take, and that's fine.  It would be nice to have a discussion without someone talking to me like I'm a naive, star-struck teenager.  For the record, I'm a married father of three daughters, with engineering (NC State) and law (UNC) degrees.


by NC State Dem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:05 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

I'm all for getting the Republicans to wedge against themselves over the issues, but let's not confuse that with having to fight the rightwing anti-common greed interests. If you don't think Warner did battle, you don't know what happened in Virginia 2001-2005.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:47:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I am from VA and Warner worked with the GOP controlled Legislature to get his bill's passed. He especially worked with Senator Warner to get his tax bill passed

He was not considered to be a partisan politician by most people in the state.


by BDM on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

The fact that Warner got his bill passed by a GOP controlled legislature is an important point.  Look, I like Warner and I agree with Jerome that he's a fighter.  If he had run, I may very well have supported him.  But Warner also understood, as does Obama, I think, that projecting a willingness to listen to and work with the other side -- combined with an unwillingness to compromise on core principles -- is often the key to getting things done.  Absent both of those characteristics, there's no way Warner would have turned the GOP against iself and gotten that bill passed.    


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Thanks very much for the response - perhaps that's the jumping off point for our disagreement.  I think that Obama WILL battle when needed, he's just not making that the only arrow in his quiver.  Warner's executive experience gave him the opportunity to fight and win such battles, but he built up alot of goodwill and respect in the bank first.  He didn't run in 2001 with a pledge to stick it to the conservatives in the assembly, and he wouldn't have gotten anything accomplished if he had taken that approach.  Virginians liked and trusted him, and he had enough crossover appeal to get things done.  His remaining opponents then looked unreasonable and dogmatic, and the VA state GOP is still reeling as a result of the movement he started.

That's what I think Obama can accomplish.  Yes, Warner was better in that he had already demonstrated his blueprint - but he's not running for the top office.  Obama is, and he's the only one who can possibly be a transformative President for the progressive cause, IMHO.

For the record, Edwards didn't show any more willingness to battle in the Senate than Obama has.  Even if he had, the problem would still remain that he hasn't built up the trust and goodwill needed before declaring "war."


by NC State Dem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Understand, I'm not coming at this from the side of Edwards. I am not a supporter of Edwards, or anyone.

The post was about an issue, and how it's getting framed. And I think Krugman  and Edwards have the upperhand in their battle with Obama on this point.

I always pushed Warner to be more partisan with his national campaign, and I was nearly always the one that was pushing him the hardest. Running for the Dem nomination is not like running for VA governor.

Obama is running on what he thinks would work best, from the perspective of a Senator. Edwards is running on the perspective of not being a Senator, and not having to migrate back to the DC bubble, and just being out there among the people that are going to vote the whole time.

Edwards chances are slim, but in this battle, he's going to kick Obama to the curb. I expect Obama to quickly try to find a way out of this, because its a loser for him to be explaining why he wants lobbyists groups at his table.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And our role (none / 0)

Very well said.  Let me add, that under Obama's plan of attack on the health issue, the transparency process plays a huge role.  All the negotiations are to be public.  The reason is not to provide content during the WGA strike, it is to keep us active in the process because that is how we will win.  When the arguments are made against the Insurance companies, we will the public to keep the pressure up.  The press to keep the pressure up.  This is what grassroots democracy is all about - not just electing someone and go away, but to stay active.  Obama's plan counts on that.  He's not setting himself up to be a modern day Health Yojimbo, like Edwards thinks he is.  Obama sits at the table with all concerned, with the public sitting right behind him watching every moment.  That is the centerpiece of his plan.


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I'm frankly out of patience with both Obama and Clinton, and none too impressed with Edwards' campaign skills.  Mind you, any one of them would make a decent President....

But I gotta say:  It's a damn shame that The Big Three are getting all of the attention, and votes, when none of them have exhibited one-tenth the leadership that Chris Dodd has shown and is showing.

Maybe we should pay more attention to him, h'mm?


by CaseyL on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:34:26 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

the man pushed through "help america vote act" without recognizing that electronic voting machines should be required to leave a paper trial.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

trail too.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Notice, too, that Obama backed away from his pledge to not employ lobbyists in his administration.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/120 7/7411.html


by david mizner on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:35:51 AM EST

No he hasn't .... (none / 0)

His policy has been a matter of record all year and sounds pretty good to me. If a lobbyist can't work on policies in their area do you think they will apply for a job?

Lobbyists can work in an Obama administration -- just not for two years in an area related to their work as lobbyists, according to the candidate's proposal released earlier this year.

The restrictions on employing lobbyists would shake up the status quo. Lobbyists have long cycled through government, regulating industries they once represented and then returning to those industries after a few years in the public sector.


by JoeCoaster on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:46:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No he hasn't .... (2.00 / 1)

Bs- when lobbying was catching on as an issue he tried to triangulate


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:51:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

This is such a bs article. There is no direct quote from Obama in response to the question, just an interpretation of a change in rhetoric from one speech to the next. A responsible journalist would ask the campaign for a direct response to the question and then quote it for the reader.


by dmc2 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (1.00 / 2)

Krugman can't help it.  He has deceit in his blood.  


by Javier Doval on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:51:04 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

but why?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (1.50 / 2)

As a jew, I grew up being told that only Israel matters and that anyone who is not a 100% friend of Israel (meaning someone who acknowledges the need to "compromise") is an enemy.  Krugman, though liberal, is a jew first and foremost.  This is what unites him with Lieberman and Feinstein.  They will always vote for what is best for Israel even when its not in the interest of America.  My father is like this, which is why he made sure all of us have dual citizenship with Israel.

I, otoh, do not agree with this only way of thinking.  I believe the future is only attainable if all semitic peoples share Jerusalem and the land.  I certainly believe that the territorial integrity of Israel must be preserved, but the Palestinians need a state of their own and Syria should have the Golan Heights.  We can only get there through real peace and compromise.  And this is why I support Obama.  I don't know if Bob Kerry was being honest when he said he thought it was a good thing that his name is Barack Hussein Obama, but I 100% believe it.  I believe only providence could have brought this about at this time in our history.


by Javier Doval on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

let's not forget we have christian zionists who oppose any and all concessions to palestinians.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:06:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama finding support in Iowa (2.00 / 1)

Obama finding support in Iowa:

a lot has been written over the weekend about Obama's latest "sprint" across Iowa. Obama has been hitting four to five towns and small cities a day, traveling across the northern part of the state where Democrats are often as few and far between as the far-flung Iowa farms his bus lumbers through. At the end of six days Obama will have visited 22 cities in 22 counties in Iowa.

But despite this being John Edwards' country, Obama's message appears to be catching on.  Voters are readily saying they will support him as they leave the town halls. He's still attracting large crowds, and he often brings them to their feet for a standing ovation. Part of the reason could be that support has solidified, and Obama is attracting his own supporters at each stop.   Many times when the senator asks how many undecided caucus-goers are in a room, there are only a handful in the crowd.

The noticeable difference in Obama from the perspective of those who've been following him day to day for four months now is his energy level. The senator is no longer dragging at the end of a day; instead, he's improvising and throwing in jokes. His stump speech is actually longer, but it's far more pointed and compelling than it has been before.

There is also a populist appeal to Obama's message here. Two of the supporters that introduced Obama yesterday at Algona and Emmetsburg had the same text, emphasizing that Obama came from a working-class background and was raised by his grandparents and a single mother, and that he had little contact with his father growing up. Obama began his first town hall on Sunday with a speech on his tax plan, which provides tax relief for the middle class. He provided specifics like saying that 100,000 Iowa seniors would have their income taxes eliminated if his plan was put into place.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 007/12/17/520541.aspx


by aiko on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:54:51 AM EST

All of the canidates are making their final push (none / 0)

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx? headline=Senator+Clinton+comes+to+visit& amp;articleId=722a8d78-286c-42a6-8e6b-d4 8bc1db7a54

Clinton goes door to door.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/ 12/16/clinton-hits-iowa-with-new-energy/

Hitting every county with speakers on behalf of the campaign.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/el ection2008/2007-12-16-clinton-likability _N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Hill-A-Coptering around Iowa.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 2)

I find it telling how many people have no response other than to launch a personal attack on Krugman.

I really don't think the strategy of labeling Paul Krugman a hack is going to have much currency outside the group of Obama partisans.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:02:04 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

That can be said about any group of partisans you wish.  There are a number of substance based responses in this diary by Obama supporters and for the large part they go by without response.  The play here is to attack each other and, I believe, it is encouraged at the top.


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

I'm just amazed at the same people who savaged Hillary for her dealings with industry lobbyists now declaring, with utter shamelessness, that of course you need to include industry in the process and it's naive to think otherwise.

You guys are really trying to have it both ways on this one.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Steve, I'm surprised by your "you guys" talk today.  There is no "you guys" on any side.  There are thoughtful people and then there are people who look to find an argumentative edge without maintaining principle.  Neither group is descriptive of any one  candidate.  The only savaging which really counts is the candidates, and Obama has never faulted Hillary for meeting with industry lobbyists in her efforts on health care before.  He faults her for doing it behind closed doors which cut the public, and her potential base of support, out from the process.  Edwards faults Obama for thinking you can sit down with Industry lobbyists and win in a negotiation with them.  I guess he is intending to sue them.


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Let me get this straight.. John Edwards is going to nationalize healthcare insurance companies?
Will that be a good position in the general election?

Krugman is living the the highest of ivory towers ever..

Unless John Edwards is going to go single payer or going to confiscate private insurers he is going to have them at the table. That is simply common sense and a fact.

I like Obama's stated philosophy; set the goal high, then build the support for it from wherever you can, friend or foe. Do not compromise on the goal, but invite everyone in to join them.
That is what gets things done for real people,not a krugman's desire for gridlock food fighting for 8 years while he gets to write many columns about it.


by hawkjt on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:55:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

No, John Edwards has not proposed nationalizing any insurance companies.  I have no idea where you got that from.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Steve,

There is no substance to Krugman's attacks, they are rhetorical and opinionate.  Krugman says compromise is anti-change.  Where has he been lately?  Congress can't get anything passed because of a failure of the GOP to compromise.  The president vetoes SCHIP instead of compromising.  Its sickening. And Krugman's answer is that a partisan like Clinton will get it done.

I read "Arkansas Mischief" by Jim McDougal this weekend.  Clearly, he had an axe to grind, but he paints a vivid portrait of Arkansas politics and the inherent corruption.  I actually had no real understanding of Whitewater, Madison Guaranty, Hillary's $100k bribe, Vince Foster, Susan McDougal and all the players in the Clinton scandals, but now its crystal clear.  McDougal comes clean as a crook, but more importantly, he describes how the Clintons simply took their corrupt ways to Washington (and brought most of the same corrupt people with them).  Some say its all old news, but these scandals are not over.  And the GOP will reair them.  Indeed, just this morning two GOP analysts specifically mentioned "Monica," which I thought was odd.  But now I hear its just a way to bring the Clinton sex lives into the news.  America is ready to move on.


by Javier Doval on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

The way we solve a refusal to compromise on the other side is not through further compromise.

I prefer Edwards' approach of taking the case directly to the people.  If the Republicans refuse to compromise, then the voters have no choice but to go to the polls and pick one side's approach or the other.  All the talk about bipartisanship and compromise only serves to obscure the fact that voters have no option on the ballot to vote for bipartisanship so long as the Republicans refuse to engage in it.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Which is why Obama stresses an open, transparent, public process. I don't hear that from Edwards.


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

you are now changing the subject. the question was about the influence of lobbist and  you and others change of position to an argument that months ago you attacked the clinton supporters for having. you are in other words engaged in 'look over there."


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

It is not changing the subject.  The false premise that is always kicked around is bi-partisanship = compromise.  You look at the Ethics bill Obama got passed.  He enlisted the help of a raving right-wing nut Tom Coburn who happens to be so far to the right that he believes in honesty.  He is sickened by the dirty politics which goes on in the center of both parties.  Through that bi-partisanship with someone who on this particular issue, and probably only this issue, was an ally, they pushed through legislation.  There were some compromises along the way but not as a result of bi-partisanship, often it was because both of them were fighting opposition in their own party.  

The reason for transparency is for the people to help in the process.  Let the congressmen, who said to Obama when faced with the prohibition of lobbyists paying for lunches,  say in front of the people what he said privately to Barack, "Where am I supposed to eat? McDonalds?"  Transparency is the most radical and populist idea being proposed in this election.  All this fighting bluster is just that, bluster.   Until we shine a light on every corner corruption hides in, we will never get rid of it.  Obama is clearly way ahead of all the other candidates on this issue.


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Can we be honest at least?  What exactly is Edwards talking about?  The lobbyists talk mostly to congress and lobbying happens to be in the Constitution so he can't ban lobbying.  He uses the example of a courtroom, but that is not even close to how it works in Washington.  There is no judge to referee, which is why Obama is proposing to be the referee.  And it goes without saying that there have been quite a few good trial lawyers in DC for a long time.  Edwards is nothing new.  If anything, his approach is certain to lead to more gridlock.  I used to like Edwards, but his rhetoric has gotten too hard for me.


by Javier Doval on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

we know what edwards is talking about- he's talking about the influence of big lobby money on writing legislation wholesale using language that  the industry wants rather than any real 'negotiation' -- ie that obama's definition of universal healthcare, for example, is one that the big insurance industry created in the last few years because they knew this issue was coming.  thats the influence of lobbist that you casually pretend is about expertise.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I am glad you raised healthcare.  Mass. is the only state in the union with an individual mandate, and guess what?  The mandate has not achieved universality.  And the reason is cost, which is the very reason Obama focuses on cost.  This is the real issue, though.  Obama has said he is open to a mandate if it can work, but Clinton and Edwards have painted themselves into a corner by saying they won't compromise on a mandate.  So what happens when the analysts say the mandate does not work and it will only end up being a tax on working families?  Do they stick to their guns as Clinton did in the 90's and nothing gets done?  On this issue, Obama wins hands down, but he is losing the rhetoric war.  I may have to go on air myself to explain it.


by Javier Doval on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

because mass offers no subsidy or progressive approach to it. next.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Mass does subsidize it, but its still too costly.


by Javier Doval on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

hence not progressive. and mandates are needed due to free rider.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (none / 0)

also as i understand it no real public option like medicare for all which would be cheaper than any private sector plan. under obama , the comparsion, he offers no such option thats outside of the private sector. for all the claims by his supporters about how edwards helps insurance companies- thats laughable when one compares obama's plan for the private sector.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:51:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

It is the Insurance industry which wants an individual mandate where everyone has the choice to go private if they wish.


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:46:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

bs- they want it so that they dont have competition. which obama gurantees


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Krugman is clearly NOT a hack and I commend the guy for serving as a lonely voice of reason the last 7+ years.  For some of us Obama supporters, at least, we simply think he's reading Obama incorrectly.  Speaking only for myself, I don't say that with any vitriol.  I just think he has the politics wrong this time, if not the policy.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:26:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

if somebody throws a punch at you, do you just sit there and take it?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

The fact that you consider Krugman's criticism to be a "punch" that must be met with force, as opposed to an argument that must be met with reason, is what's telling.

Krugman makes a substantive argument.  Obama supporters come back with "Slugman."  Guess who wins that debate among objective observers.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:28:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is interesting to me (2.00 / 1)

The very sort of registered Democrat that is mostly likely to be an Obama supporter is also likely to be the type that reads the New York Times and admires Paul Krugman.

It leads me to believe that Krugman taking Obama to task, or Obama mixing it up with Krugman, is a loser for Obama.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:29:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Edwards obviously wins.  Obama is naïve, and his version of compromise is one that benefits Republicans, not Democrats.


by truthteller2007 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:10:52 PM EST

Edwards ? (none / 0)

He made his fortune out of being a big settlement trial attorney.

I suppose we are going to trust the lawyers to get us out of this?

I agree Obama is wet behind the ears, though.
Tough situation.

I would argue Obama can do the job; he doesn't
seem to be that naive.

The worst mistake you can make is to trust the wrong person.

The only person I trust is  a quirky computer genius.  And she's just a teensy eensy weensy bit kinky too (makes big shoveling gesture).

Edwards has a good ground organization/ Remember he surprised everyone with his 2nd place in IA
in 2004.

Edge: Edwards.


by Trey Rentz on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:28:10 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Edwards has undoubtedly waged the true-blue populist campaign in this election cycle.  My issue with Edwards' rhetoric, though, is that it comes off gimmicky.  And he when he refutes or bucks establishment principles, he doesn't really offer anything as a viable alternative, e.g. "War on Terror" as a "bumper sticker" slogan.  While that may be a fair assessment about the Republicans overuse/political abuse of that term, Edwards does not offer anything up to allay people's fears about the possible recurrence of terror attacks in this country.  Obama, on the other hand, basically offers  no policy plans which seem to have any kind of basic meaning.  Running as a change agent is dangerous with an electorate that votes largely on staid conservative principles (conservative values are true even for rank-and-file Democrats, particularly in the Midwest and South).


by Zeitgeist9000 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:33:00 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

actually he has- which since you are online you can easily google to find out what he has said


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

edwards can't even explain how he evolved from dlc darling to rebel populist in the span of a few short years.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

thats your spin on his background rather than what his background is.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

this i've gathered from interviews he's given. edwards was asked why does he now oppose the bankruptcy bill - when before he voted for it. he was unable to provide an answer that gave reason to his switch on positions.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

sorry but thats your spin. he's been pretty consistent- about his core values- remember two americas in 2004? remember what he ran on in 1998? remember what he choose to do for al iving? and on and on. i have facts, you have your feelings. i am going with the facts of his background.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

have you seen his voting record? they do Not reflect the rhetoric he is spouting today.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:28:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

edwards voting against the wellstone bankruptcy amendment is a jaw dropper.

At the Democratic forum today, Edwards spent some time -- as he often does -- lamenting the fact of medical bankruptcies. This is no surprise: Elizabeth Warren, who's done the seminal work in this area, informally advises him.

But when the Bankruptcy Bill -- which Edwards voted for -- came up in 2001, then-Senator Paul Wellstone offered an amendment to "create an exemption for certain debtors that can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the court that the reason for the filing was a result of debts incurred through medical expenses." In other words, to prevent medical bankruptcies. The amendment failed, 65-34. Edwards was one of the 65 voting against it (as was Biden -- Clinton and Dodd both voted for, and Obama wasn't yet in the Senate). In doing, he broke with just about every liberal in the Senate. At times, votes like this can be out-of-context, as Senators kill good liberal amendments to get an important progressive bill to the floor. But the Bankruptcy Bill was hardly that. It's a hard vote to explain. But I'd still like to hear what the Edwards camp has to say.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tappe d_archive?month=08&year=2007&bas e_name=post_4688

i'm not the only one waiting for an explanation.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

he has an imperfect voting record- better to have one than miss votes them or make excuses for them. his core values is my point- can you say that with me


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

somebody with progressive core values would never have voted against the wellstone amendment.

edwards can talk the talk, but when it mattered, he walked the other way.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:37:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

God Jerome, I wish you weren't a frontpager.  Every time I read these daily anti-Obama screeds of yours I lose a little more of the hope I have of progressivism working its way past the 18 states it currently clings to survival in.

Listen, I can tell that you fear Obama won't win the general, and that Hillary is more electable, and I can tell you YOU'RE WRONG ON BOTH COUNTS.

By the way, how EXACTLY will Edwards fight the lobbyists when he MUST work with a congress that is almost entirely owned by them??

Getting rid of lobbyist influence must be the ultimate goal, but we have to realize that we must work our way out of our current system, not foolishly believe we can firebomb our way out.  They are unfortunately far more entrenched than that.


by ArkansasLib on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:55:21 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

the same way reagan, fdr and every other actual leader has done it before him.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Krugman isn't giving Obama a pass (2.00 / 1)

He may be the only prominant figure in the print who isn't in the tank for Obama for one reason or another.

Krugman is actually reading or listening to Obama's points and not just gazing at Obama all starry eyed, swallowing the hope business.

As for Obama it is silly to have gone after Krugman.  I think Obama was very thin skinned.  Krugman isn't running.  Krugman has no skin in the game and he has a big platform to reach people from.  


by dpANDREWS on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:18:31 PM EST

no skin in the game? (none / 0)

You could of fooled me. Krugman is obsessed with Obama..he can't stop tearing hime down. Has he writting a negative word about of any other candidate? And now today is like the fifth time he has called out Obama.

It's kind of weird.


by JoeCoaster on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman isn't giving Obama a pass (2.00 / 1)

Well, Obama tells the press what they want to hear.  The Village is all about bipartisanship, especially when the Democrat is the one who is promising compromise.  When Bill Clinton fought with Republicans, he was kowtowing to his leftwing or being polarizing.  When Bush stubbornly refuses to move an inch, he's being tough.  

My main problem with Obama isn't that he promises to work with the other side, that's probably good media management even Edwards has said he'd put a Republican in his cabinet (one of the stupidest campaign promises, ever, btw).  It's the idea that he - and only he - is somehow so special that the Republicans will suddenly become reasonable, that the problem with Washington is that Democrats are just sending the wrong person to the table.  If we'd just send Obama, we'd get solutions to our problems.  

It's not that I think only Obama can't do that, I don't think anyone can do that.  To paraphrase ER, nobody is that pretty or that special.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You hit on (none / 0)

For all the talk it is still just talk.  Washington doesn't change by electing a President.  If you wanted to change Washington you'd have to vote every incumbant out of office and put in new people with term limits.

The fact is the President is just one person.  The House, the Senate, the agencies, the department with all their career people, the Supreme Court, the lobbyists, the associations, none of those people go away simply because we elect Obama, or Clinton, or Edwards, or whomever.

That is why "change" on the campaign trail is an overused, hollow word.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit on (none / 0)

especially when hillary tries to co-opt it.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit on (none / 0)

I'd argue that the Bush administration has brought real change.  They have degraded the civil service, shredded the constitution and grabbed unheard of executive power.  They've done it by being extremely partisan and even though they lost the popular vote in 2000.

It's true, they had help from a terrorist attack, but I think they were always going to try to do this.  Democrats don't even try to make such partisan changes. We often go into it to make a deal and then act shocked when the American public thinks we're weak.

Reportedly Hillary Clinton as far back as 1980 was complaining the Republicans were weak politically.  She was right then.  Edwards is right now.  People don't give you power, you take it.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit on (none / 0)

Argh, Clinton said Democrats were weak politically.  It's only my fevered brain that wishes she had been speaking about Republicans.  Unfortunately, Republicans?  Not weak politically.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman isn't giving Obama a pass (none / 0)

Well, Obama tells the press what they want to hear.

not true. drivers licenses wasn't a popular answer. telling iowa in a debate he supports capping subsidies - isn't a popular answer. he went to detroit auto companies and told them they need to clean up their act.

if anybody is a panderbear in this race, it's edwards.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman isn't giving Obama a pass (none / 0)

I'm not talking about policy positions.  The press doesn't give two craps about policy positions.  

What Obama tells the press that they want to hear is that he wants to work with the other side, that he wants to get past partisan politics.  That's, like, David Broder's dream.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman isn't giving Obama a pass (none / 0)

I'm quite baffled as to why you think capping subsidies is an unpopular answer in Iowa.  Both Iowa Senators voted for the cap.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:27:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman isn't giving Obama a pass (none / 0)

When Bill Clinton fought with Republicans, he was kowtowing to his leftwing or being polarizing.  

how was bill kowtowing to his leftwing? when the bulk of his policies tilted right.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:52:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman isn't giving Obama a pass (none / 0)

reagan offered a shiny city on a hill. look where it got him.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Long term Krugman is helping Obama (none / 0)

...by taking the 'scary liberal' attack away from the republicans.  Which will help in the GE (HOPEfully he makes it that far!).

Krugman obviously has made a mission of taking down Obama (has he written a critique of any other candidate?) While Krugman is a progressive hero, independents don't know him and he is a boogie man to fiscal conservatives. So when the republicans try to paint Obama as a 'scary liberal' all he has to do is point to the Krugman 'Obama Sucks!' Series (out on DVD for the holidays).

Thanks Krugman!


by JoeCoaster on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:23:37 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Edwards can say, given his election rhetoric, that only he can and will fight the big boys (whether his record backs that up or not, is another matter).

I think the challenge for Obama is that Edwards' attacks inevitably help Clinton in addition to Edwards.  It will be difficult for Obama to claim Clinton is too polarizing and that she's too accomodating to special interests.  So Obama is kind of stuck because it's difficult for him to pivot this attack onto Clinton.  

Now, I think Edwards is right to go after Obama.  His attacks on Clinton  helped Obama and now Obama could do the same thing Clinton was at risk of doing, sweep the early states.  That has the same result for Edwards, he's done.  So having raised Obama and hurt Clinton, he now has to try to hurt Obama.  He had some fun with Clinton's planted questions, it looks like Obama got caught doing the same thing.  


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:26:44 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

both Krugman & Jerome are obsessed with Obama.
Edwards/Obama 08!!
by cskonje on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:40:00 PM EST

Edwards/Obama? (none / 0)

I honestly cannot think of a more mismatched ticket.  You cannot have the Vice President nominee dedicated to sunny talk and leave the attacks to the top of the ticket.  Ask John Kerry.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

YEA! Edwards goes after the right guy. Obama will sell us out in a heart beat.

While I support Clinton all the way, Edwards is an excellent candidate. And a great progressive!


by moi moi on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:10:12 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (1.50 / 2)

If I were in Iowa I would challenge Edwards to an actual fight, just to show he's really a coward.  All that bluster is backed up by small hands and small feet.  He and Clinton are opposite sides of the same coin, its just not clear which side is masculine.


by Javier Doval on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:19:13 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

it's been reported hillary used to chide edwards on the senate floor by calling him "pretty boy."


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

fight! fight! (none / 0)

If I were in Iowa I would challenge Edwards to an actual fight,

edwards wouldn't want to muss up his hair.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:29:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

John Edwards... (none / 0)

has no shot of getting the nomination. With the exception of Iowa, where he has camped out for the better part of five years, he is a distant third in every important state. Even in native SC, he's not even close. And in Iowa--he's now polling third.

Yes, he might have the team in Iowa, but that's it, he does not have a comparable team in any other state. He certainly can't match Obama and Hillary's warchests, esp. on Mega Tuesday.

Even if he does pull off Iowa, the story won't be on him, after all, Iowa was his to lose. It will be on which of the two candidates failed worse. Then all of the pressure will shift to NH, where Edwards is an afterthought, and Obama and Hillary will battle each other.

Edwards does nothing except shift more importance to NH.

The media loves Hillary v Obama, and if you think Edward's populist streak is the bigger story you are naive, sorry but it's true.

Whoever finishes second in Iowa, then gets he nomination. If it's E-O-C, Hillary's downfall will dominate the headlines, not Etaht's also true. Then in NH, where Edward's message has clearly not resonated, independents will flock to Obama. Giving him all the momentum.

If Iowa goes: E-C-O, then Obama loses his momentum, but Hillary also loses her luster, so NH will become that much more important.

The best Edwards could do is make NH competitive for him. But by no means does an Iowa victory mean a victory in NH. In 2004, after a surprisingly close second place finish, Edwards still placed a distant third in NH. And unlike in '04, Edwards does not have a lock on the South, where he trails badly behind Hillary and Obama.


by True Centrist on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:16:56 PM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

there was an article saying that insurance industries feel Hillary's UHC plan was more practical and preferable for companies.

aetna

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/11/21/121 30/640


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:44:15 PM EST


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