Obama vs Populism

Edwards has "challenged" Obama, according to Axelrod, and now we've got a battle between Obama and Edwards over whether corporate drug & Pharma lobbyists should be invited to the table (Obama), or battled (Edwards), to enact healthcare reform.

Guess which side Paul Krugman comes down on: Anyone who thinks that the next president can achieve real change without bitter confrontation is living in a fantasy world.

Which brings me to a big worry about Mr. Obama: in an important sense, he has in effect become the anti-change candidate.

There's a strong populist tide running in America right now. For example, a recent Democracy Corps survey of voter discontent found that the most commonly chosen phrase explaining what's wrong with the country was "Big businesses get whatever they want in Washington."

And there's every reason to believe that the Democrats can win big next year if they run with that populist tide. The latest evidence came from focus groups run by both Fox News and CNN during last week's Democratic debate: both declared Mr. Edwards the clear winner.

But the news media recoil from populist appeals. The Des Moines Register, which endorsed Mr. Edwards in 2004, rejected him this time on the grounds that his "harsh anti-corporate rhetoric would make it difficult to work with the business community to forge change."

And while The Register endorsed Hillary Clinton, the prime beneficiary of media distaste for populism has clearly been Mr. Obama, with his message of reconciliation. According to a recent survey by the Project for Excellence in Journalism, Mr. Obama's coverage has been far more favorable than that of any other candidate.


Krugman closes:
So what happens if Mr. Obama is the nominee?

He will probably win -- but not as big as a candidate who ran on a more populist platform. Let's be blunt: pundits who say that what voters really want is a candidate who makes them feel good, that they want an end to harsh partisanship, are projecting their own desires onto the public.

And nothing Mr. Obama has said suggests that he appreciates the bitterness of the battles he will have to fight if he does become president, and tries to get anything done.

Obama is making a defense of it, in Iowa, but does that 'big table' talk actually appeal to any strong partisan Democrats that are in a populist mood?

Edwards did challenge Obama:

...an undecided voter stood and asked Edwards to give one reason why Iowans should back him instead of Obama in the Jan. 3 caucuses.

As president, Edwards said, he would be more successful in fighting the powerful corporations and interests that he says control America's health care system and other important areas.

Obama, he said, would take a more conciliatory approach. "He talks about bringing drug companies, insurance companies, oil companies ... to the table and working with them and negotiating and compromising," Edwards said. "I just think that'll never work. If that would work, it would have worked years ago. If that worked, we'd have universal health care. We don't...

You know, we've got a lot of good and talented candidates, we've got a lot of smart candidates, and we've got a lot of people with good ideas," he said. "But we need somebody who's ready for this battle."


Challenged him right on his own turf and his own terms, which Obama has played right into by defending having lobbyists at the table.

There is a solid frontal attack now that is working against Obama on both the political and the policy side. That is, he's not battle-tested for the general election against Republicans, and that he's not ready to battle for progressive reforms as President. The political side of the frame had been gaining a foothold over the past two weeks, and now we see the policy side gain a foothold, surprisingly, by Obama defending having the lobbyist groups at his table. The way it's framed, Edwards wins this battle easily.



Display:


Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Having fun?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:34:55 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Monday's are always terrific, we are due a slew of polls too.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Tester, Webb and Sherrod Brown (none / 0)

is all I have to say to dems winning swing states


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tester, Webb and Sherrod Brown (none / 0)

tarheel if your tagline is a real quote I am going to freak out.


by Trey Rentz on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Seriously. (none / 0)

How 'bout some analysis there, Mr. Armstrong? I though cut-and-paste jobs were discouraged on MyDD.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:43:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seriously. (none / 0)

Welcome to blogging.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the analysis (none / 0)

is that obama is now on the same side of the issue with Hillary...

at a time when the economy is becoming more important, people in their gut know enough that big oil and big pharma and HMOs are n't going to give up profit just to be nice


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the analysis (none / 0)

at a time when the economy is becoming more important, people in their gut know enough that big oil and big pharma and HMOs are n't going to give up profit just to be nice

allow me to project your argument into foreign policy:

"at a time when when national security is becoming more important, people in their gut know enough that iran isn't going to give up their nuclear weapons just to be nice."

are you opposed to meeting and negotiating with iran too?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 2)

Jerome, I "heart" you! Love the diary!


by lonnette33 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:38:02 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 2)

How come I never get this sort of encouragement from the Obamafans?


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:43:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

We believe in 'tough love.'


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:46:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

just not for lobbyists


by world dictator on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Perhaps if you worked with them and included everyone at the table, you could help end the divisions that are keeping this country from moving forward. You know, add a little kumbaya.

I've noticed empty platitudes and proper awe for money raised also helps.


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Because HRC's supporters are a loving people.


by lonnette33 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:19:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

lol


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

what. hillary fans are extremely loving and caring people. just watch how much you love them when she wins.

you guys think +edwards+ has a good ground crew.
(hey I'm just being realistic here..)


by Trey Rentz on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

huh? i'm an obama supporter.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:50:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the holy obama inquistion (none / 0)

view you as a heretic

and believe you should be burned for your witchery.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Because you almost exclusively post on anti-Obama topics. Maybe if you had other interests, you would seem like less of a hack.


by AC4508 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Jerome -

These are some good points.

BTW: When do you think Edwards drops out? Before or after New Hampshire? Or does he stick around for Nevada?


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:42:27 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Not anytime soon, especially if he wins Iowa. If its a Clinton blowout, then in Feb; if it's Clinton vs Obama, he stays in all the way too, he could wind up with enough delegates to be holding the balance of power to decide the nomination.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:46:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Now that would make things interesting.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:47:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What if Obama comes in third in Iowa? (none / 0)

Just askin'...


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:11:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that would be very bad for Obama (none / 0)

I don't think that a likely outcome, but it is possible, depending on how he does outside eastern Iowa.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if Obama comes in third in Iowa? (none / 0)

That would be a big blow for Obama, I think, in NV. He's doing well now as a soft first and second choice among voters who want an alternative to Clinton but if its Edwards, Clinton, Obama in Iowa, then I think those voters -- as well as some of the institutionalized support -- break for Edwards out here.

On the national level, I suspect that an E, C, O finish would be a big boost to Edwards' fundraising and with matching funds, Edwards would suddenly become a threat in Feb 5 states.

And, as I've felt for a long time, there's going to be a big question of what Clinton and Obama have left in the bank after Iowa; whomever finishes third may suddenly be at a financial disadvantage.


by desmoulins on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:45:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

New Hampshire will not win it for him because the independents are split between him and McCain.

even rightleaning indies are sick of war. mccain sings about bombing iran.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

we saw what happened when hillary blocked people from the process, insisting on a closed shop.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:48:27 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

precisely. but that's too obvious for ideologues to swallow: they prefer to live in a b & w world.


by CalDem on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

which was the real problem for Hillary she didn't include lawmakers either.

if you include HMOs and Pharma we already know what they want profits


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

Why take on the industry lobbying and marketing power if you don't have too? The first attempt at Health Care Reform is going to be a compromise (I'm surprised Krugman is so unrealistic).

The fact the Edwards is not advocating for a single payer system tells us that.


by JoeCoaster on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

how did you feel when cheney ran his secret energy task force?

anything dems offer up will be subject to attack of course, but try to run a closed shop will only add fuel to their attack campaigns. that was the lesson from hillary's taskforce: openness inspires trust. secrecy does not.

when unions meet with industry, do they refuse to meet with ceos? just meeting with them does not mean unions will give away the store.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you want to include the lawmakers (none / 0)

i meant: when unions negotiate with industry....


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Confused (none / 0)

Edwards's health insurance plan preserves the private industry, it does not replace it with a government program. His rhetoric doesn't fully match up to his policy. He'll have to work with the insurance industry to some degree if he actually wants to implement the health care reforms that he proposes. Am I wrong? At least Obama is being honest and realistic about the fact that there will have to be conversations and compromises, as opposed to fully siding with the private health care industry up-front as Clinton seems to be doing. Listening to her talk about health care reform on th campaign trail, I can't help but feel that she's saying the only problem with health insurance is that the companies aren't making enough money, and more people need to be paying them.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:16:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm Confused (2.00 / 1)

Edwards' plan does have a significant public component, which Obama's does not. Having that public component means that if it proves more efficient than for-profit insurance companies (as Medicare is and the VA is, on a cost basis) then more private insurance companies will have to cut their huge administrative costs, or lose customers. That leaves open a very real avenue for people to choose publicly administered insurance which over time would gain efficiencies of scale and move us towards single-payer.

Obama's plan would, as I read, it only perpeutate private for-profit insurance companies, albeit with help to make it more affordable for individuals.


by desmoulins on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:49:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the point actually... (2.00 / 2)

you have to approach them from a position of No Compromise, a position of strength. Then let THEM compromise. That's the huge difference between Edwards & Obama for me. Edwards really knows how to negotiate and is not afraid to NOT negotiate. He knows how to play hardball. You can actually sense that Obama doesn't.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Remember "Don't ask don't tell"? (none / 0)

Edwards promises to fight for Health Care reform remind me of Bill's promise to allow gays in the military. Clinton promised up and down that it would be the first thing he would do, and it was. He poo-pooed the major player's interests (the military) and issues the decree.

And then reality hit him in the face and he was forced into a bad compromise (that actually set the cause back 12 years).

Actually the same thing happened to HillaryCare but she was so inept that we did not even get a compromise out of it.  

Obama is living the the reality based world were you can't ignore the major players interest when you take on big issues. Let's not keep repeating the same mistakes, OK?


by JoeCoaster on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

face it Obama is a bad framer for (2.00 / 1)

progressive causes.

he has a ton of strengths but he frames things horribly like "playing chicken with the troops"


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:51:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

do you want to grease the path for movement? (none / 0)

of course big pharma and insurance lobbies are soul sucking bastards who deserve to be hung by their balls and flogged. it's one thing for us to talk this way, it's quite another for policy makers to do so.

you demonize corporate interests beyond all reason will only cause them to dig their heels in further, exacerbating their already inherent tendency to be obstructionists.

if you offer them a place at the table, maybe, then maybe we can get somewhere.

edwards' way reminds me of chinese handcuffs. the more you try to pry apart, the more we get stuck.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Anyone who thinks that the next president can achieve real change without bitter confrontation is living in a fantasy world.

strawman from krugman.

who says obama isn't ready to face bitter confrontation?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:51:13 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I reckon he's had a taste of it by now, don't you?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Yeah - my understanding is that Obama has faced down Hillary's henchmen pretty well so far!


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:05:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Oh, please what Bill Shaheen and the other "henchmen" were doing were concerned trolling, not an outright attack, which would have totally exploded in their faces.  You also have a classy enough candidate who was willing to apologize when she thought her people went out of line.  There will be no such apology from a Repub.  They will in fact find some way to make it an ongoing issue with the help of the media.  They've already made his full name a net negative and they haven't really started.   That was just the warmup. I don't think the big, bad, Repub slime machine cannot be defeated, but be prepared for more than what has been done.


by Kingstongirl on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

republicans relish sex scandals.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:58:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hah! (none / 0)

When has Obama ever had to run against a strong Republican opponent.  (And, no, beating Ambassador Batshit J. Crazee doesn't count...)

All his "tough" fights have been intramurals.  He knows how to run against Democrats.  If he and his people spend more time attacking Krugman than republicans, that speaks volume.

Obama doesn't want to piss off the moneyed interests.  THAT would be a bitter confrontation, and he has all but indicated he'll roll over to them.


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:16:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (2.00 / 1)

I'm surprised your so confident after observing Hillary's campaign the last few weeks.  Now she's getting personal with a helicopter?  My kid watches better cartoons.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

Were a Hillary backer I indeed wouldn't be confident.

I'm backing the guy running as a Democrat.


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

Cool, sorry I noticed down-thread, no offence intended.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

what helicopter?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

Chill.  It isn't black.  The Hill-a-copter.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

huh? i'm not getting the reference. must be about a story i missed.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:27:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (none / 0)

When has Obama ever had to run against a strong Republican opponent.

obama faced bitter corporate opposition when he passed healthcare in illinois. something krugman fails to mention.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 06:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Exactly.  Where does this notion come from that the only way to fight someone is to shut them out altogether?  Honestly, I don't think that's fighting at all.  You battle someone by looking them straight in the eye and showing them the courage of your convictions.  But this idea that shutting out those interests that have the biggest financial stake in health care reform is somehow going to keep them from influencing the debate is absurd.  You either give them a voice in the process, and demand some concessions in return, or you resign yourself to another slew of "Aww shucks" TV ads and the possibility of two more decades without real reform.


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

refusing to meet ones enemies - is the bush/republican position.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

It's a mainstream press fantasy that the Clintons blocked everyone out, including legislatures.  See these articles in The American Prospect, debunking this myth,http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti cle=the_hillarycare_mythology,  http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti cle=hillarycare_mythology_did_hillary_th reaten_democratic_senators.  

A lot of people, including the Clintons, made a lot of mistakes on healthcare.  But you cannot discount the fact that, contrary to what the Clintons were counting on, the Republicans decided they could not - and would not - compromise because healthcare reform of any kind could empower the Dems for years.  I doubt that analysis has changed much.  They'll say they want to work together on healthcare reform but in the end, they'll do everything to sink it.  Healthcare reform is bad for Republicans politically and there's no way they will go along with it.  I don't care how many seats you give them at the table.

Getting the history right I think is critical regardless of who the nominee is because I expect the Republicans to rerun their campaign against healthcare, with help from the drug and insurance companies.

I understand why as a campaign strategy the Obama campaign is using the MSM myths that healthcare reform failure was all Clinton's fault, but what worries me is that they might actually believe that.  If they do, then they are setting themselves up to fail.  The part of Obama's "plan" to pass healthcare that I think is most telling is saying he'd respond to those "Harry & Louise" ads by telling folks they were lying.  Well, gee, I'm sure the Clintons never thought of that.

The Republicans will fight healthcare reform tooth and nail.  It is a highly partisan issue because of the electoral benefits to Democrats should they succeed.  It is critical that folks understand this and not simply think removing Hillary Clinton from the process will make it better.  Whoever our nominee is will have a hell of a fight on their hands.  Democrats always do.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Argh, legislators, not legislatures.


by BDB on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

i've posted the mythology link several times when hillary supporters try to claim the entire project was her idea.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

If there is such a "populist tide" sweeping the country, why isn't Edwards doing better in national polls- he's been in the low to mid teens all year.  You have a very talented, well known candidate who has been solid and consistent all year on message and it hasn't caught on.  

On partisanship- you can keep believing that fighting the old battles the old ways will work (going on about 20 years now and still waiting) or you can try something different - smart partisanship.  They're not the enemy, they're people (well, some of them) we have to work with for the common good.  Like Obama said, you're not being realistic.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:53:45 AM EST

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

Compared to Hillary and Barack, much of it fawning, especially early on, Edwards has gotten very little media coverage. Yet Edwards is still a serious contender in the states where attention has been paid to the candidates and their message.


by Quinton on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (none / 0)

spending 5, 6 years in the state should overcome lack of media coverage.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

Probably because Time Warner, General Electric and News Corps don't feel it's in their interests to portay Edwards as a serious contender.


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Faulty Premise (2.00 / 1)

Edwards is staying in the run.

Thats winning enough for having to put his own message out. The MSM has for reasons both obvious and not, been attracted to the "Inevitable, but hated HRC" and Barak Obama, who promises everything to everyone and nothing to no one.

When his message is heard, he is the front runner. His message will be heard, and agreed to and supported, across the political spectrum. "I will fight for you," is believed and understood and desired. "The system is broken," is believed and understood and supported. "The solutions to our problems are prevented by greed and corruption," is understood, believed and supported.

He answered the ten questions http://www.10questions.com/ because its all of one piece to him. It's even easy. He doesnt ever say to himself what do people want to hear, or - what does that community think I should say.

It has the ring of commitment, the solidity of values, the stuff of leadership. I can hear Bobby Kennedy in his words, but I feel FDR, America's greatest president. Franklin D. Roosevelt fought for you, for us for the U.S., fought.. Hard struggles, real battles against fascism rising in Europe and America, against the wealthy the corporations, and for America. But the America he built is the America of today, except for the fact we didn't listen to Eisenhower.

I will be sorry to see President Edwards go in 2017, and so will you. I hope he will have chosen wisely his Vice President.

This is a concern for me. I actually want Gore to be his vice president, but I understand why considering his age, that Obama would be a better choice. Obama could succeed him, Gore could not.


by inexile on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Obama is the "TRUTH".

People are jealous. Be honest. Don't hide behind any clumsy excuses and idiotic explanations.

Let's face it. OBAMA ROCKS!!!!


by win on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:55:51 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I just looked in Webster's.

"Truth" is not a synonym for "Hype". And "Rocks" is not a synonym for "speaks in empty platitudes".


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:20:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I can't believe Axelrod walked right into that. Bringing together NASCAR and NPR fans together: boring at this point but nice. Bringing together Americans who have been royally screwed by our health "care" system and insurance/drug company lobbyists who have dumped millions into buying off our elected representatives to keep the former screwed: no thanks.


by alexmhogan on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:02:02 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

For Slugman, this is personal. Same with Jerome.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:04:26 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Obama can do no wrong. He's our savior. Is it me or is at least a certain faction of Obama's support becoming the kind of defensive reactionaries we commonly see from Ron Paul's support? We we talk about healthcare, or experience, or electability, it's not personal. We're picking the leader of the free world here.


by Christopher Lib on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:19:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Sorry...I was too busy watching Obama walk on water.

Whatever.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:33:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's Pin This Down (none / 0)

Health Care- OK
Experience- Undefined
Electability- Unknowable

And it is you.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:48:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

jerome wont answer me when i asked if his antithesis was fueled by obama saying "palestinians have suffered the most." does krugman have the same problem?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Are you actually serious about this?  Krugman has a problem with Obama because he's a Jew?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

howard dean got opposition simply for saying "even-handed."


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Stupid. Quit being it.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

you still haven't answered.

what's next, jerome? resort to calling obama supporters naderites like holden?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Let me get this right, it's something to do with Palestine you are asking?  And you think that's why I think Obama is worthy of a critical look? It all sounds as if you are a bit on the wacky side, really.

Grow up, and stop treating this place as your trash can, there are a lot of other places for you to behave childish.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

i wasn't the one name calling.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 03:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

nothing wrong with saying you oppose obama because you're afraid he would be too conciliatory in offering palestinians concessions.

that makes more sense than blaming oprah for bush having been elected.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 04:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here Jerome...have a blast (none / 0)

Of yeah, and I'll give Jerome some more ammunition since I'm not really concerned about him.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3389fa18-abf6- 11dc-82f0-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check =1


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:05:35 AM EST

President or Attorney General? (none / 0)

I was watching Edwards on CSPAN last night, delivering a speech in Ames, Iowa.  At first I was pretty impressed.  He was strong, forceful, his rhetoric sharper and more pointed than I've seen before, and although there he was a man worth 54 million dressed like a Union member it all was working.  Then he got to health care,  and tried to put down the idea of negotiating with the drug companies, suggesting you can't negotiate with them, that you need to fight them, and then said something like, "when I was a lawyer if I came up to the big corporations and said I want to negotiate with you they would laugh in my face.  You got to fight them, and that's what I've done..."

Sounds great but you don't accomplish passing bills as the President by taking everything to court.  The act of accomplishing things in the Government is the act of negotiation, not law suits.  Unless he's running for Attorney General, running as a national version of Jerry Brown who is transforming the role of California AG to concentrating more on corporate crime which pollutes our environment.  But as President, it is a false premise to say you can't negotiate with them.  You better be able to negotiate with them and win, not rely on taking it to another arena.  And what is he saying? In the area of his past when he was tremendously successful as a lawyer, his success was built on taking his clients away from the negotiating table and into the courtroom.  When he tried to negotiate, they laughed at him.  

As we know, as a Senator he was unremarkable.  He is not running on his record where his skills as a consensus builder was important, but on his record as lawyer making cases in front of 12 people only.  And look at his proposal for Health Care.  It is not going to be won in the courtroom - unless that is his plan, in which case we can kiss goodbye any reform in his first 4 years.  As preparation for negotiation, it is terrible.  As acknowledged by every pro-mandate economist, the individual   mandate is something the Insurance companies will demand to lower the risk ratio.  He hands it to them before sitting down - I guess that will stop them from laughing at him, at least not in front of him.  

And he fails to look two steps beyond to the door he is opening on all Government mandates.  In answer to why not a single payer plan,  he went on last night how it is a good thing for you to make the decision, not the Government,  between a private plan or a government one.  It should be your choice.   In a room full of supporters that played out unquestioned, but in a room of Republicans you can be damn sure they will draw a direct line from that reasoning to why we, not the Government, should make the choice on Health Care, to why we, not the government, should make the choice on Social Security vs. Private plans, and school vouchers which gives us, not them, the right to decide where our child is educated.  


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:05 AM EST

Re: President or Attorney General? (none / 0)

this extends into a way to foreign policy. refusing to meet the "axis of evil" is the bush position.

the axis of evil in this case being the insurance, drug & medical lobbyists.

how many times have democrats insisted meeting with ones enemies is Not capitulation? the same applies whether they are foreign leaders or corporate lobbyists.

obama is being consistent in his arguments. the others are not.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Obama will have to make the sale this week that he has the experience to be president.  The rest is silly stuff. Most people expect that corporate america is here to stay and has to be managed smartly and strategically rather than battled and conquered--especially on the executive level.  Krugman is carrying Hillary's water (pro-edwards writing helps hillary in iowa) right to finish line (as is Jerome). They say they are progressive but supporting Hillary is not my definition of a progressive. She's a hack--a main stream dem hack.


by aiko on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:24 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Another strawman from Obama supporters- "if you say that you must fight that means you are anti business." No it means you realize that the  interest alligned against you aren't interested in compromise. There is a difference, and Edwards outlines it well.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:08:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

refusing to meet will only make lobbyists more determined to obstruct.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice try (none / 0)

on the "a vote for Edwards is a vote for Hillary" meme.  What happens when Edwards wins Iowa.  Who is Hillary's main challenger then?


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No Main Challenger (none / 0)

Edwards gets a boost, but it isn't big enough to beat Hillary in New Hampshire or any of the major February 5th states. Maybe he takes Nevada, if he gets the Culinary Workers. Obama maybe wins South Carolina, then fades away. Hillary is our nominee.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:31:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

The beauty of the argument is that it works as well against Clinton as Obama.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:07:51 AM EST

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

I take comfort in knowing that you are almost entirely preaching to the chior.

IMHO, you are dengerously wrong and so is Krugman.  The beneficiary of your Obama-bashing is most likely HRC.

Doubtless you will keep bashing for as long as Edwards has a pulse.  I sincerely hope I do not have to say I told you so if Edwards ekes out a narrow victory in Iowa and then gets rolled up by the Clinton machine.

You obviously are a proud and stubborn ideologue who is willing to bet everything on a low odds strategy.  I am a progressive, pragmatist who is tired of good, loosing causes.

As has been said before, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I have put forward variations of this post on at least five or six threads.  You have never been unwilling to engage me on the substance of my argument that Obama has a much better chance of stopping HRC than does JE.  Why so reluctant to engage?  Perhaps you are smart enough to know that the available information is overwhelmingly on my side.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:08:21 AM EST

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Typo:  Should have said "you have never been willing"


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

Let me ask a question- because personally what I am getting tired of are posts that call any disagreement "hate" or "bashing" -- language by the way that plays into victimization of the candidate- is there any criticism that wouldn't call bashing or hate? Just curious because this diary is a substantive critique.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:10:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

The reason I call Jerome's approach bashing is because it is nearly universal.  He twists any and all Obama statements or actions into something he can find fault with.  He is always prepared to assume the worst about Obama.

Substantive criticism about specific policy positions or statements is fine. But that is not Jerome's modus oporandi: he consistently takes selective quotes and then parses them in ways that twist them beyond all recognition.

I stand by my conclusion that he is an idealogue more than an analyst.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

I really could careless about whether Jerome criticizes 100 percent of the time or 50 or 10. THe question is whether his crticism is right. Period.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Neither you or Jerome seem willing to discuss my central criticism which is that JE's chances of stopping HRC are a mere fraction of Obama's.

Progressives need to think strategically rather than getting caught up in this stupid food fight.

My frustration with Jerome is his unwillingness to engage in a substantive discussion.  He seems much more inclined to keep posting criticisms of Obama that distort his record, his proposals, and his campaign.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 1)

it's because I don't care about your thesis. You aren't answering the critique about a presidential candidate- so you are in essense changing the subject.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 2)

"...You obviously are a proud and stubborn ideologue... you obviously don't read much about what I written or done, which is fine, live in your fantasy.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Nice substantive response.

Still ducking I see.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:56:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (2.00 / 2)

Look, I don't agree with Jerome about Obama either but there's really no reason to attack him personally.  He's laid out his concerns regarding Obama and why he thinks Edwards makes more strategic sense.  This post is completely consistent with those views.  Probably time to agree to disagree, since we won't know whose right in their approach till the election is over.  

Also, even as an Obama supporter there's no doubt in my mind that JE is capable of beating HRC and certainly capable of beating whoever the GOP nominee is.  He's a good candidate in his own right and a very decent man.  We're lucky to have such solid candidates this go round.


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:35:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

I agree that JE is a very strong candidate in the genearal election, although I am worried that he will be defensless during the late spring and summer because of the matching funds problem.

I disagree that he has much chance of winning the nomination.  That is my central point.

None of the Edwards supporters have been willing to discuss this issue.  I think their reticense is telling.  The bulk of the available information is strongly on my side of this argument.


by upper left on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

Well, I agree with you that both Obama and Hillary have a better chance of winning the nomination.  But if we assume that Edwards is a strong GE candidate, it's fair to say the party will be just fine if he DOES manage to pull it out.  Regardless, I think it's a lot more interesting to discuss why your preferred candidate would make the best president than to focus on what their chances currently are in the horse race.  But that's just me.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome's Strategic Blindness (none / 0)

he wont answer my palestinian question either.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, Edwards will adopt comprehensive health care reform without listening to any input from drug companies, HMOs or lobbyists.

If you like this kind of nonsense campaign bluster, then I guess Edwards is your man.


by snaktime on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:09:50 AM EST

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

Another thoughtless post- tell me the history of healthcare reform in this country, and then tell me which of the two candidates is living off of fluff and fantasy from their supporters.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:11:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

Obama says he'll talk to everyone.  The assumption by Jerome and Krugman (and I guess, you) is that he will therefore cave in to the health insurance industry and not get anything progressive accomplished.  Obama supporters, like myself, think that he'll stand firm and get something significant, if not perfect, accomplished.  No way to know, objectively, whose right till someone wins the nomination and the GE.  

Edwards healthcare plan is great and I like him as well as a candidate.  Like all the others' plans, however, it's never going to become law.  The legislative process, even if we get to 55 or 56 Democratic votes in the senate, is going to require flexibility and negotiation.  Edwards says those negotiations won't include healthcare related business interests.  Edwards supporters view that as smart and pragmatic.  I view that as unrealistic, since negotiating purely with OTHER DEMOCRATS, with our big tent, is goign to require the next president to at least listen to the healthcare industries views.  Again, no firm way to KNOW whose correct till somebody wins.

 


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

It's not an assumption. It's based on what Obama has said and done. Look- don't do this. by this I mean telling everyone think yo think is real to justify your choices. Back in 2000 no one thought Bush could have done what he has done or in 1980 with Reagan or 1932 with FDR or on and on. Your argumetn is just not correct. The substantive critique against Obama isn't whether Edwards will achieve all his goals or not- its whetehr Obama gives up before trying. We simply can't know what you assume as fact before we have even tried.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:43:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I don't follow you at all.  My entire point was NOT that my assumptions, which I labeled them, are correct and yours are not.  It's that they are BOTH just that -- assumptions.  

Edwards history as a Senator doesn't establish that he'll be able to accomplish sweeping reform without compromise.  If he wins, I nonetheless hope that past history ends up being meaningless.  But neithr of us can prove the strategy he's advocating will or won't work.  That's just a basic, philosophical disagreement.  

As far as Obama's history proving he "gives up before trying," I have no idea what you're talking about.  His history in Illinois shows he's quite capable of brokering compromise to achieve progressive reform.  You obviously view his more consensus oriented approach as weak, but haven't provided any evidence to substantiate that view.  I'll readily concede that you and Jerome may end up being right that his approach will prove strategically unsuccessful.  But arguing that that's a fact is just silly.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (2.00 / 1)

your assumption should be based on factual analysis. labeling it as opinion doesn't mean you get to ingore facts. so when  you say you dont understand- my point is as i just described. his history in the Senate-w hat is that? you like doing what I call denial of parts that bother you. I dont need to do that with Edwards- i like him good and bad- what is Obama's record in teh senate and while now running for the presidency? thats what i care about. on SS or healthcare etc.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about now.  You disagree with Obama's APPROACH to SS and healthcare.  Fine.  His goal remains the same as Edwards.  We disagree on whose strategy is superior for achieving those same goals.  Explain to me what "facts" exist to prove you're correct?  Here's a hint -- there aren't any.  

To try and answer what I THINK your direct point is, Obama hasn't accomplished much of anything in the limited time he's been in the Senate.  Primarily b/c this democratic congress as a whole hasn't been successful.  None of the other big three candidates has a track record of accomplishment either, including Edwards.  That's a negative for the field, although I like to think it's one of the reasons they're all running for president:  to accomplish something impossible in a different role.  

If you have any substantive criticisms, I'd be happy to discuss them.  At this point, however, you seem to just be raging against Obama without any particular rationale.  That's ashame, b/c I thought you were legitimately inviting a real dialogue.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

he has accomplished anything because he's running as a centrist. leadership does in my book require sucess- it requires the ability to out on a limb when its not easy or clear that you will suceed. you make a lot of excuses for him, and that's why you can't accept the criticism of him without resorting to the tactics we've seen along this thread. as steve m says- many of you by your own actions are acting in a telling way about the criticism about of obama. you keep sayiing you dont get the point- but frankly i think you do.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 12:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

The major piece of legislation he has passed while a US Senator is his ethics reform bill, the toughest legislation in that area in 30 years.  We now can find out easily who is getting government contracts and who is responsible for earmarks.  In other words, we the people now have the ability to "follow the money".

What is centrist about that?


by Piuma on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 01:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

he missed the vote on Iran, he voted for funding, he's been unable to voice critique of SS without using prhases that are GOP esque (and I do think there are problems just not a crisis), he has a healthcare plan that is basically tailor made for the i ndustry and big lobbists, he regularly has attacked 'secularists,' he uses the language of bipartisanship (which really means left give up, right doesn't and any one following US history knows this for the last 30 years). Sadly I can go on so you keep saying he's not basically centrist if that makes y ou feel better- but i do have evidence of what he is. i support him as my second choice but under no illusions about who he is and how he will govern.


by bruh21 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama vs Populism (none / 0)

If you would just read what I've already said, I think you would find that your criticism of me is misplaced.  I understand Jerome's point AND I respect where he's coming from.  I simply disagree with it and reject its underlying assumption.  I may be wrong -- time will tell.  

Not sure what you're trying to prove my arguing that your criticism and Jerome's is objectively accurate.  


by HSTruman on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 02:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

<