Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"?

Today's GOP DesMoines Register debate was the candidates' final meeting before the January 3 caucus; the Democrats' final chance to spar before Iowa is tomorrow. The impact these debates could have on the race, according to one Democratic strategist, is huge.

"With just over 20 days left until the Iowa caucuses, the Des Moines Register debates could have a seismic impact on the race," said John Lapp, a Democratic strategist who ran Democrat Dick Gephardt's 2004 Iowa caucus campaign. "With so many undecideds still looking to make up their minds, a fatal flub or a shining performance could fundamentally change this race and significantly shape the outcome of the Iowa caucuses."

Well, the guy did run Gephardt's campaign so what does he know? I mean, that's an awful lot of significance to place on a debate that airs on CSPAN3 at 1pm local time on a weekday (it was originally scheduled for a Saturday.) But then again, I suppose it is more about media coverage of the debate than the debate itself. So what is the media saying about the Republican debate today?

Yawn. First Read sums it up.

This was not a debate, that we can agree on. It was a forum which for the PBS/NPR crowd who swears they don't like debate fireworks and gotchas and simply want candidates talking specifics, should love. Well, they got 60-second non-specific answers on issues that are not registering as the top issues among Republican Party voters. I'm guessing even those folks didn't like this debate.

So who won? Well, this was an opportunity for the field to slow Mike Huckabee and the format didn't allow for it, so on that score, I guess Huckabee can call himself a winner.

So, not only did the format not lend itself to any seismic shifts on that stage today but, by the looks of it, the candidates didn't really make any effort to shake things up either. From The AP:

The subdued Republican debate Wednesday belied the fierce, increasingly negative battle in Iowa and elsewhere for the party's presidential nomination.

The candidates largely held their fire in their final meeting before the state's Jan. 3 leadoff caucuses, mindful that negative campaigning can backfire, particularly in Iowa.

So much for seismic. But the thing is, Hillary Clinton does need the earth to shift under their collective feet tomorrow if she hopes to regain momentum. Throughout this campaign, debates have proven seismic for her to the extent that her lead was essentially earned and lost based on her performance during them and so tomorrow is a perfect opportunity for her to try to shift things yet again, to re-establish voters' confidence, which has been shaken over the last month or so. To accomplish this, she needs to shine and she needs Obama to stumble, and if he doesn't, then she needs to trip him up. This is risky, of course, not only because she could potentially alienate Iowa voters who tend to detest attacks, but also because her campaign has been so inept at the whole attacking thing recently. This is an especially strange development for a campaign that a. has exhibited such message discipline for so much of the year and b. has basically pitched Clinton as an effective political fighter.

As John Dickerson wrote in a recent piece for slate titled "Hillary Clinton was supposed to know how to rumble":

How well Clinton fights matters because Clinton and her campaign aides put her combat skills at the center of her campaign. They have repeatedly argued that only she can go up against the GOP attack machine in the general election, even making the point in a television ad. It was the theme of her speech to Iowa Democrats at the influential Jefferson-Jackson dinner last month, in which she promised to "turn up the heat" on the Republicans. Clinton and her aides continue the argument into her future presidency, saying that only she has the political fighting skills to implement health-care reform and restore fiscal restraint.

So will we see the fighter come out tomorrow or will she remain above the fray and simply try to win on the confidence and charm that served her so well for so much of the year? I imagine she'll play it by ear and go on the attack if it looks like Obama is holding his own. Obama on the other hand will likely act the part of the front-runner and avoid saying or doing anything controversial; the wild card is Edwards. On one hand, he's been playing Mr. nice guy recently, shifting the tone of his ads and his TV appearances from angry to almost giddy, which would lead one to believe he's going to remain that way tomorrow; he's hoping to be the Kerry to Clinton and Obama's Dean and Gephardt. But if he sees an opening, I could see him piling on Obama; he has a lot to gain from an Obama fall as traditionally Obama's supporters cite Edwards as their second choice and vice versa. But taking down Obama is going to be difficult as the upward momentum is clearly his.



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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

This is a very important debate for Edwards.  He's been stuck in a bit of a rut in the previous debates, in my opinion, and this is a key opportunity for him to really drive home that closing argument.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:10:49 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

By "previous debates," do you mean the NPR debate in which most press reports scored him a clear winner -- and which had the largest audience in Iowa to date? I agree Las Vegas wasn't great for him and I didn't see the Black & Brown.

The thing is, as I've been posting for a long time, the audience for these things is not us, DD readers or political insiders. That was the case 6 months ago. Now, its early state voters, more specificially Ioiwa voters, who are undecided, still making up their mind. Because Edwards has run many fewer ads, mailed less and relied largely on direct contact with voters to get his message out, staying in a "rut" is not only necessary but desireable -- he needs people to hear his main points. When they do, they generally come away very impressed.


by desmoulins on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:47:49 AM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

No, I missed the NPR debate, unfortunately.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:54:01 PM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

This is where Mike finally makes his move.

Gravel 2008!


"I hope the two wings of the Democratic Party may flap together." - William Jennings Bryan
by pinche tejano on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:15:15 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

Where is he moving to?  That can be a stressful time. My advice: pack your own suitcase. Keep the important stuff safe.


by Trey Rentz on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:31:20 AM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

Hopefully he is moving to the status of elder statesman.

That's the best possible outcome.

Gravel 2008!
Vote for the multigenerational anti-war activist!

Who else will give you dada campaign ads during the general?


"I hope the two wings of the Democratic Party may flap together." - William Jennings Bryan
by pinche tejano on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 02:04:04 PM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

joementum!


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:55:08 AM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

"Seismic" haha.....
Hillary's "fighting" skills seem to be lacking as well. All of this "hype" about posturing. Is this what democratic process boils down to
by cmpnwtr on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:19:24 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

I followed most of the Republican debate.  It was very uneventful.  

I think I'm going to miss some of tomorrow's debate because of class, but hopefully the blogs and media will have some good post-coverage like they did today.  


"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." - Soren Kierkegaard
by SixthElement on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:22:12 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

Hillary would be well served to tell her husband to stay home, and run her own campaign. It's not very impressive for the first woman with a chance to be president to be having her husband hurling mud on her behalf, as though she can't fight her own fights and fight them fairly. And Obama's drug use? Yeah, he inhaled, so what!!! Hillary was running a good campaign. What happened?


by cmpnwtr on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:26:56 AM EST

If i'm not mistaken (none / 0)

Don't these debates re-air at 7pm central time?


by KainIIIC on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 01:00:53 AM EST

Re: If i'm not mistaken (none / 0)

They did today.  I remember hearing that.  


"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." - Soren Kierkegaard
by SixthElement on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 01:20:54 AM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

If conducted as it was today, with the same format and moderator, there is likely to be no debate worth the name.

For more on just how dreadfully the "debate" was conducted, see DebateScoop.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 01:40:16 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

The Dem debate will be Bullshit because of the exclusion of candidates...WTF Allen Keyes can be there but Kucinich won't be in ours?


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 03:33:16 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

i didn't even know alan keyes was running again. where did he come from out of the blue?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:09:24 AM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

This link explains it
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_ jean_hay_071212_dennis_kucinich_and_.htm
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 03:40:09 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

this is going to be on cspan 3 & msnbc 1:30 pm eastern, 10:30 pacific.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:03:58 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

wonder how the money race is going. the end of the quarter is the end of the month? wonder if oprah was able to move the needle in that regard. back when dean was running, ever attack against him caused the bat to grow red. bet the same thing happens if this turns out to be pile-on-obama day.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:08:27 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

right about now the stalking horse is hillary not obama.


by Trey Rentz on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:32:21 AM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

what do you mean?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:56:15 AM EST
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Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

Yesterday on the MSNBC roundup on the GOP debate Todd claimed that if the format is the same --which it is--then Obama has already won the debate. He said that Obama does better in this style of forum.


by aiko on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 08:33:34 AM EST

Hillary should look presidential and above board (none / 0)

Defend yourself but dont attack below the belt.

If they talk about your triangulation --retort back--you do the same -- Obama also having a hard time answering same question.

If they attack her truthfulness--tell them to prove it and raise also an episode of their truthfulness.

But excoriate them for political mudslinging and that we all should be working together the whole country even Republicans.


by jasmine on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:57:14 AM EST

isn't the baseball steroids report the same time? (none / 0)

I honesty think the debate will get very little attention unless something really unusual occurs, especially if Roger Clemens and similar superstars are named.  

ps.  Isn't George Mitchell supposed to be a Democrat?  Why does he release the report at the same time as a debate.  


John McCain is a Bush ally on Social Security.
by John DE on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:10:03 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

The attacks Clinton herself has made have actually been pretty good, it's her people that haven't done as well.  Part of the problem is that every time Obama or Edwards attacked her, the MSM went giddy and repeated it over and over.  When she attacks Obama, the MSM call her mean and repeat that over and over.

Clinton's people, however, have shown a tin ear towards attacking fellow Democrats.  I think they're more used to attacking Republicans where subtlety isn't required or desired.  

I don't think Clinton can except a seismic shift.  I think she needs to do focus on killing Obama with a thousand cuts.  Raise a small point here and a small point there about his experience and readiness.  What she needs to do is get people to feel uneasy about him.  This is where things like the 1996 questionnaire and even the drug use stuff fit in.   I didn't like the drug stuff, but it won't surprise me if Obama falls (and that's a big if) that the last two days when folks raised the questionnaire (did you know Obama wanted to ban all guns?) and the drugs (did you know Obama did cocaine?) were the beginning of it.

I don't think she's going to get them to actively dislike him.   Polls already indicate that a lot of folks rate her stronger and more experienced, she just needs to keep hitting that while her surrogates continue to raise issues about Obama.  I don't expect to see the drug thing again.  But I would expect more stuff about the questionnaire, his lack of universal healthcare coverage, his voting present in the Illinois state legislature on gun and abortion issues,  and other issues like it.  

I personally thought the "you can't vote present as President" was a good attack, which they should continue.  It ties into a larger theme of Obama being all talk, it reminds progressives that he skipped the MoveOn ad and the Kyl-Lieberman vote (even though he claims the latter was a blank check for war), and softens Obama's attack on Clinton for Kyl-Lieberman since he didn't bother to vote.  It didn't get much play the first time, but if it were me, I'd keep hammering it in little ways.  


by BDB on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:57:58 AM EST

Re: Impact of Final Debates "Seismic"? (none / 0)

It's expect, not except.  Totally different word.  Heh.


by BDB on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:58:53 AM EST
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