Obama on America

A candidate supporter diary for MyDD

The notion of American exceptionalism is on old and noble one and an awareness of it is essential to understanding our historical role in world affairs.  It's an underlying self-perception of our nation widely shared by the general public as much as it is maligned and, especially recently, questioned and deplored by experts.  It has been with us since the sympathetic French sociologist Alexis de Tocqueville first coined the idea in 1835 and has informed our public policy and national aspirations on the world stage, for better or for worse, throughout our history:


American exceptionalism (cf. "exceptionalism") has been historically referred to as the belief that the United States differs qualitatively from other developed nations, because of its national credo, historical evolution, or distinctive political and religious institutions. The difference is often expressed in American circles as some categorical superiority, to which is usually attached some alleged proof, rationalization or explanation that may vary greatly depending on the historical period and the political context.

Wikipedia - American Exceptionalism

This belief that the United States differs qualitatively from other developed nations is often implied in phrases like restoring America's position or rebuilding our reputation in the world.  If you harbour a belief that America has a special role to play by virtue of it's size, power, egalitarianism or influence you are subscribing to this idea.  The hijacking of our foreign policy by neo-conservatives, whose notion of 'exceptionalism' was founded solely on our unique status as the last superpower standing in the post-Cold era, has so eroded sympathy for and confidence in American exceptionalism outside our borders that it has undermined the idea of America' special position in the world and led to an abandonment of this concept by intellectuals and our allies on the grounds of illegitimacy and shifting geopolitical sands:


All this has led some to conclude that the world would be better off if America slunk home. As Joyce Carol Oates wrote in The Atlantic: "How heartily sick the world has grown, in the first seven years of the 21st century, of the American idea!" It has become a "cruel joke."

Roger Cohen - Obama's American Idea 10 Dec 07

The criticisms of 'Pax Americana' and comparisons to the imperial ambitions, and decline, of ancient Rome have followed.  Many suspect we have quite simply unsheathed the naked blade of military dominance and promptly broken it.  They have a good point.  In this context there have been few champions of exceptionalism in the foreign policy debate, the right continues to promote the corrupted 'divine right of power' version in their neo-conservative agendas but the left, quite typically, has shied from asserting a bold, coherent, ideological vision, contenting themselves with promises of 'good governance' and remedies for the geopolitical excesses of recent years.  Except, apparently, for Senator Obama.

In a recent interview on foreign policy Senator Obama made a stunning comment:


Still, Obama stands by the universality of the American proposition: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness under a constitutional government of limited powers. "I believe in American exceptionalism," he told me, but not one based on "our military prowess or our economic dominance."

Rather, he insisted, "our exceptionalism must be based on our Constitution, our principles, our values and our ideals. We are at our best when we are speaking in a voice that captures the aspirations of people across the globe."

Roger Cohen - Obama's American Idea 10 Dec 07

That is a bold and clear statement, full of promise and implications for Obama's future policy and an indication of his guiding principles in it's execution.  While Hillary and Edwards have also proposed foreign policy platforms which would redress our geopolitical failures neither has articulated an ideological vision for our role in world affairs or their administration of our foreign policy.  If they have mentioned restoring our international 'leadership' they have not articulated why this leadership is necessary or it's cost justified.  This is a risky position for Obama to take and raises questions about the leadership challenges this approach would demand, for though it is not founded on fear or perceived threats it demands that both are confronted and mastered.  He will need to stand his ground on this idealistic principle as we are facing increasing, and threatening, challenges worldwide.  Is he tough enough for a dangerous world?:


"Yes, I'm tough enough," he responded during a half-hour conversation. "What I've always found is people who talk about how tough they are aren't the tough ones. I'm less interested in beating my chest and rattling my saber and more in making decisions that build a safer and more secure world."

Obama, speaking less than a month before the Iowa caucus on Jan. 3, continued: "We can and should lead the world, but we have to apply wisdom and judgment. Part of our capacity to lead is linked to our capacity to show restraint."

Roger Cohen - Obama's American Idea 10 Dec 07

He is placing our withdrawal from Iraq, which has inherent risks for American foreign policy no matter how it resonates with the electorate, in the context of a much broader view of America's role in a post-9/11 world.  Withdrawal from Iraq would be just one facet of a much larger initiative to advance American influence by engagement with the international community.  This is not a policy of merely dealing with the reverses we have suffered under the maladministration of the Bush years but an alternate and ambitious strategy which implies energetic, outward interaction with allies, enemies and the uncommitted.  It suggests new agendas and the promotion of mutually positive solutions with international partners but also implies that the role of America in these affairs is legitimate and founded on the strengths we have enjoyed for the whole of our history.  An example of such an agenda?:


Referring to the time he spent in Indonesia, Obama said: "I have lived in the most populous Muslim country in the world, had relatives who practiced Islam. I am a Christian, but I can say I understand your worldview, although I may not agree with how Islam has evolved. I can speak forcefully about the need for Muslim countries to reconcile themselves to modernity in ways they have failed to do."

Roger Cohen - Obama's American Idea 10 Dec 07

Amen, and about time someone in leadership made a statement along those lines.  If he could do that successfully we could clear a major obstacle which has defied traditional strategies and diplomatic methods and remains a significant threat.  But it is a posture which demands a legitimate foundation, an ideological frame of reference based on the virtues and principles of our own condition, and the future we are offering to the international community who have made the choice to engage with us and share, or aspire to, our values.  The bottom line?:


Nowhere in American history has the gulf between ideals and sordid practice been greater than on questions of race. It is precisely the gulf between high principle -- not least habeas corpus -- and unprincipled actions that has done the most damage to America's image in recent years. Once again, Obama appears to bridge and reconcile.

"We can't entirely remake the world," he told me. "What we can do is lead by example."

Roger Cohen - Obama's American Idea 10 Dec 07

Indeed, an example Senator Obama is qualified and motivated to help guide us in setting.  And not before time.  I believe that Senator Obama is articulating a view which is widely held in the electorate and not restricted by party orthodoxy.  It is about time we had foreign policy leadership aligned with the best interests, the inherent wisdom and the aspirations of the American people themselves.



Display:


Re: Obama on America (2.00 / 1)

I look forward to your criticism, thanks.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:38:59 AM EST

Interesting defense of American Exceptionalism (none / 0)

And one I did not expect from you.

You have identified the fundamental difference between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton on foreign policy, he believes in American Exceptionalism while she is a liberal internationalist. This ideological difference has been clear from the beginning of the campaign, and it is rare to see an Obama supporter acknowledge it. It helps me understand your defense of Obama's comments on invading Pakistan, which at the time I suspected was insincere.

You are unfairly dismissing Clinton's ideological defense of liberal internationalism, and how she grounds her vision in FDR's work and more specifically Eleanor Roosevelt's work on the international system and the UN human rights charter.

But on the broader point this difference is why I support Clinton over Obama. Even though I value our constitutional system and diversity I do not think engaging the world in American Exceptionalist terms is the most effective way to spread our values. In Obama's speeches and articles on foreign policy he focuses on strengthening American military power and using it to promote American values. Hillary Clinton shows a much deeper understanding of how the United States can work with other countries, international organizations and institutions to peacefully resolve global problems.


by souvarine on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:47:23 AM EST

Re: Interesting defense of American Exceptionalism (none / 0)

You may want to define Clinton's "liberal internationalism" a bit more precisely. I'm not sure I follow the distinction you're trying to describe. Does liberal internationalism entail the exportation of political liberalism? To what extent should the U.S. (through coordinated efforts with the U.N., perhaps) exert pressure (economic, military, or otherwise) to remedy political tyranny by other governments?

If Clinton's vision involves the enforcement of american political values (basic human rights, political equality, democratic procedures, etc.) that we consider universally applicable, then I think she is still subscribing to the kind of exceptionalism that Obama is defending--although, perhaps in a less explicit way.

Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out where Clinton and Obama differ exactly in your mind. This diary tells us about Obama, but I can't follow your distinctions without a better idea of Clinton's philosophy.  


by DPW on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting defense of American Exceptionalism (none / 0)

Careful here, American exceptionalism is a broad church and 'liberal internationalism' is diametrically opposed to 'realism' in doctrinal terms, not exceptionalism.  American exceptionalism has had proponents among those who assert supernaturalist, genetic or environmental justifications, not to mention military and economic ones, as we have recently seen.  It means simply that the United States has some quality which sets it apart from the typical evolution of post-monarchial or post-colonial nations and I believe that is true.  Where you take it and what you base it on is up to the practitioner.

It seems you are thinking of exceptionalism in the sense of military and economic power, which has been the fashion recently.  I don't believe that is what Obama has in mind, though I am gratified to hear him occasionally address shortfalls in our military and intelligence infrastructure.

One could easily postulate an internationalist response to world events which is founded in an exceptionalist belief in human rights, democratic ideals or the rule of law which are reflections of our American culture.  What I believe Senator Obama is intending is a traverse of the dangerous post-Iraq period in the Middle East, for example, with US policy which is enhanced by a credible willingness to extend internationally the same adherence to principles we have long practised at home.  We have done the opposite lately with obvious negative effect.

Having said that, I would have to agree that Obama is also a 'realist' as opposed to a 'liberal internationalist.'  I frankly don't see how a US commander-in-chief could be otherwise without permitting the erosion of at least some advantages enjoyed by American citizens which I doubt they would voluntarily relinquish.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting defense of American Exceptionalism (none / 0)

Obama's Democratic version of American exceptionalism carries with it the same temptations and dangers as Bush's, and those dangers are rooted in exceptionalism's populist appeal that you note below. A leader convinced he has the moral right to intervene, who has the support of a righteous populace, is an enormous danger to our modern world. It is inevitable that his actions will reflect his nation's interests, and that those interests will conflict with the interests of other nations. The basic insight of liberal internationalism, and the sense in which it incorporates realism, is that nations have legitimate interests in conflict, and that an international system of laws can mediate among them. American exceptionalism works against that insight, since its basic assumption is that our system and values are the exception that are more legitimate than those of other nations.

Obama has already demonstrated the danger of the exceptionalist impulse in his statements on Pakistan and about personally meeting with our adversaries. On Pakistan he believes that we have the right to unilaterally invade, not in response to an imminent threat but merely on solid information. He does not believe that the inevitable nationalist backlash against such an action is a problem. When describing how he would talk with adversarial leaders he said that he would convince them of the rightness of our values, and that if they were not convinced it would be their problem. Obama carries this unilateral tone through to his speeches on foreign policy, and its source is his avowed belief in American exceptionalism.

At the core of Clinton's argument, by contrast, is that our interests will be better served if we submit to an international system of laws. And that we only have the right to act unilaterally in extreme circumstances.


by souvarine on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting defense of American Exceptionalism (2.00 / 1)

he believes in American Exceptionalism

these are not the thoughts of someone who thinks only dominance is the answer.

"I think," he said, in that deep and measured voice of his, "that if you can tell people, `We have a president in the White House who still has a grandmother living in a hut on the shores of Lake Victoria and has a sister who's half-Indonesian, married to a Chinese-Canadian,' then they're going to think that he may have a better sense of what's going on in our lives and in our country. And they'd be right."

[...]

Obama speaks with special passion about the need to change America's image in the world -- and not only by proving that it can elect a 46-year-old black man with roots in the Muslim world. He returns again and again to the question of what America means to the rest of the world. In one of his speeches, he observed that United States senators typically see "the desperate faces" of Darfur or Baghdad from the height of a helicopter. "And it makes you stop and wonder," he added, "when those faces look up at an American helicopter, do they feel hope, or do they feel hate?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazi ne/04obama-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:19:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (2.00 / 1)

People around the world will view America more positively just by Obama's election, providing an immediate window of opportunity for his administration to launch this bold and creative foreign policy.  What's more, he will be welcome in places Bush would not dare venture.  Not because of his ethnicity, but because of his ideals.  I may be idealistic, but I think Obama could be the one to craft an acceptable peace in the middle east.  This is why I dare to hope.


by Javier Doval on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:48:20 AM EST

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

" People around the world will view America more positively just by Obama's election, providing an immediate window of opportunity for his administration to launch this bold and creative foreign policy."

-  I distinctly recall Pakistanis screaming.

Death to Obama !!

Death to America !!!

burning american flags , after a presidential candidate managed to incite mass riots in another country , a first in the History of the nation in modern times

lol.

providing an immediate window of opportunity for his administration to launch this bold and creative foreign policy."

- Hey the Pakistani's would like to have a say in that bold foreign policy .

 Infidel !!!

Snark!!!


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

And so they shall.  Pakistan is a perfect example of where this approach is likely to pay the best dividends.  It is a populous, secular nation with a robust, if chequered, democratic tradition.  Backing the dictatorship in Pakistan is one of the most tragic mistakes of our foreign policy, one might almost say neglect, and I leave it to you to discover to which recent administration that trail of bread crumbs leads.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:21:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

The hardcore Islamic parties got what, 15% of the vote in the last Pakistani election?  Let's not confuse mainstream, nominal respect for Islam with the genuine tendency towards theocracy that we rightly worry about.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:54:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Yes, I certainly agree and my original comment was badly stated, in that you are correct.  I still maintain that Pakistan enjoys an energetic democratic tradition and that politics is more secular, and modelled on Western practices, than one might expect taking those indications at face value.    As Steve points out the truly Islamacist parties enjoy only minority support in a theoretically democratic system.  The population of Pakistan is clamouring for elections, not theocracy.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:08:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

That's not strictly accurate, historically, even though you are correct that Islam has always been the state religion.  In it's first thirty years Pakistan adhered to British-era secular politics and policies and it certainly wasn't until the dictatorship of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq that Nizam-e-Islam and sharia were enshrined in law.  As you say, Pakistan has spent about half of it's history under dictatorial rule and the same applies to the secular vs sharia argument.

But even dictators in Pakistan have been careful to preserve appearance of democratic propriety by assuming the presidency, maintaining the constitution, with necessary modifications, and preserving at least the appearance of the separation of powers.  Political parties have a long and energetic history and are currently mainstream in Pakistani politics, dictatorship or not.  Even the judges and lawyers seem to think they have a legitimate right of protest as we have noted recently.  I was taking a historical view.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:00:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

The history of bad choices in Pakistan goes back to Zia but I was actually suggesting it was the on the watch of the Clinton administration where this latest Musharraf dictatorship had it's origins.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:13:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Well, that's all true, and I totally agree that a discussion of our relationship with Pakistan must focus on Kashmir because that is certainly where the national aspirations of Pakistan are directed, especially among the military.  And I am not discounting the necessity of intervention at the time of Kargil.  But it is interesting to note, even by your account, that the dictatorship of Musharraf was the consequence.

Whether we could, or should, have intervened on Sharif's behalf is worth consideration.  The outcome for Pakistan, and us, was inglorious.  Why wouldn't we have supported the elected Prime Minister who sought a diplomatic solution to the conflict with India?  Because we didn't want to, that's why.  And the Supreme Court decision overturning Sharif's dismissal of Musharraf made things even more constitutionally ambiguous.  I reckon, in the long run, we backed the wrong horse because we were cowed by his support in the military and preferred a reliable dictator to an unpredictable Prime Minister.  That's exactly the kind of failure of principle in our dealings with foreign nations that this diary is addressing.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:40:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

I am not blaming Clinton for stopping the war, but if Musharraf was so widely supported he could have been elected instead of staging a coup.  As for the alternatives, you have mentioned several yourself.  I believe you are overstating the autonomy of Musharraf and I doubt very much he would have made his bid without indications of at least tacit approval from the US.  There are some imponderables here I am uncomfortable arguing as they rely on insights into the dealings at the time which are not transparent even today.

The fact remains that a democratically elected leader in a state to which we were allied at the time was deposed and we accepted the terms of the dictator who replaced him with a diplomatic shrug of the shoulders.  We are today paying the price for that inattention or lack of resolve.

Even in the event that we were incapable, as you say, of affecting the outcome we certainly settled down to dealing with Musharraf with only the weakest agitation for the restoration of democracy, until now.  We are currently paying a debt long overdue in our relationship with the Pakistani people as opposed to their leadership.  I maintain that our unpopularity there is a direct consequence.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Well, yes and no.  I am really enjoying this discussion but it is not really what the diary was intended to promote.  I will just point out that there is both covert and overt diplomacy and the evidence of the one is not always an accurate insight into the other.  I don't accept that nuclear weapons limit our leverage with Pakistan, or any nuclear power.  In fact I believe the opposite.  And I don't accept that a US government would have brought down Musharraf in 2001 even if the opportunity had existed.  The rationale for his dictatorship and allegiance was, if anything, more compelling at that time.

How about American exceptionalism?  Do you believe that the US has a special role to play in the world?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

I don't disagree with your view on first principles, and it is tricky territory, which is a reason I admire Obama's stance.  I don't believe he proposes interference in the affairs of foreign nations, he is rather suggesting we extend to their populations some measure of the egalitarian assumptions we enjoy in our public lives.

Not supporting dictatorships over democratically elected governments, considering the impact on the citizens of foreign countries in our dealings with their leaders, acting with integrity in our intentions and recognising that the stable system of governance which we have created based on values is probably an attractive aspiration for those who are not so fortunate.

I cringe at the use of 'human rights' issues in the past to denigrate our enemies while we indirectly perpetrated similar abuses along with autocratic regimes which we supported expediently.  It fooled no-one and devalued the 'coin of the realm,' so to speak.  That's not to say that a certain 'realism' will not always be a significant factor in our diplomacy, but it should be tempered by a genuine intention to extend the same principles to the populations of other nations which we value ourselves.

As for cultural imperialism I am not referring to an attempt to export our specific practices, but respecting the freedom to practice them.  If a nation makes a majority choice to live under sharia our values would encourage us to respect that, not decry it.  Alternately a theocracy might attract our sympathy for the dissenting.  Corruption would be an obvious target and I am sure there is much we could do to improve our dealings with foreign nations in this regard.  The empowered and corrupt are truly the despots of the modern age and much US aid has found it's way into the wrong hands, both by accident and design.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:02:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

I think "mass riots" might be overstating the case just a wee bit.

I feel like our Pakistan policy has been dysfunctional for quite some time so I really didn't mind Obama shaking things up a bit.  The reality is that if we actually care about getting the guy who attacked us on 9/11, we might have to step on a few toes at some point.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:29:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

The President invariably has lots of options.  Ignoring the man behind 9/11, because he happens to be hiding out in the mountains of Pakistan, is not one I can support.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Those mass riots were carefully staged for the Western media in Karachi, by all accounts, and I am not aware of others elsewhere, though the US is certainly not popular in Pakistan in spite of our $10B investment.

At the time, you will recall, Tancredo had just made a remark about nuking Mecca.  No surprises there.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:04:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Well the 'staged' perception was echoed in the indigenous media at the time but, signs of our times, the archive on the site in question seems to be inaccessible since the emergency.  And I clearly said we are hardly popular there.

As for your characterisation of US involvement with the Mujahedin there is little I disagree with there.  Musharraf's position, however, was forced at the time because of his quid pro quo dependence on US support in 2001.  He has always maintained a shaky hold on power.  My objection with our handling of him goes back to 1999 and our active support of the dictatorship, a position we adopted from fear and failure to cultivate the appropriate political alliances with the legitimate political parties.  This is extended to our neglectful behaviour since when the war in Iraq has preoccupied US foreign affairs in the region.  

I think time has shown that we would have been far better off with a democratically elected leadership in Pakistan irrespective of the ups and downs in our relationship which that would have entailed and the acknowledgement that legitimacy is in pretty short supply in Pakistan at best of times.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

As for the 1999 coup d'état, see my comments in response to your above.  Whether Bhutto or Sharif's policies were failed or otherwise I maintain we opted for the Musharraf dictatorship for reasons of expediency which have outlived their very short-term usefulness and I don't accept that their was nothing Bill Clinton could do.  As you may recall he was preoccupied with other matters at the time.  Musharraf absolutely required US support to solidify his position and delivered the Pakistani military to us en bloc and delivered us to the military.  A marriage of convenience, not principle.

I don't disagree with your comment on the Mujahedin at all but would point out that this actually reinforces, historically, the relationship with the Pakistani military and the ISI, rather than the civilian government, which I am suggesting led to the Musharraf dictatorship.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:01:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

You are making claims about the coup which don't make sense in the context of our long-standing, though ambiguous, relationship with Pakistan.  And as for the nuclear threat, the US has a pretty potent argument against any nation which threatens to use nuclear weapons, any day of the week.

And the claim that the US did not have the influence to stop Musharraf's coup raises an alternate argument of neglect in our foreign affairs anyhow.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:17:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Found the citation elsewhere:


In Karachi, Pakistani's largest city, about 150 people chanted slogans against the US, Obama and Tancredo at a demonstration organized by Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, a coalition of six hard-line religious parties. Protesters set fire to a US flag.

"Those who are talking about attacking our holiest places are committing blasphemy. The punishment for this offense is death, and death only," said coalition lawmaker Mohammed Hussain Mahanti.

AP, Islamabad - Aug 05 07

Mass riots?  Not so much.  If you recall that it was Tancredo who had discussed nuking Mecca and Medina it is pretty clear the harshest rhetoric was directed at his comments.  I find no mention of public protests elsewhere at the time.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hate to break this to you (none / 0)

but if "the world" had a vote, I'm sure it would be for Hillary.

I lived overseas from the early 1990s until 2002. Europeans wanted Poppy to beat Bill Clinton in 1992, because Poppy represented continuity. Then they wanted Clinton to beat Dole, and Gore to beat Bush (again, Gore was seen as the choice of continuity).

There is no doubt in my mind that the world would be relieved to see a second Clinton administration, which would be viewed as both a change from Bush and predictable (based on Bill's record).

As you know, I don't support Hillary for president, but I think it's a stretch to argue that the world community would prefer Obama to Hillary.

I should add that there are at least ten domestic policy issues that are more important to me in terms of my voting decisions than foreign policy issues.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:07:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hate to break this to you (none / 0)

Having lived overseas almost continuously since 1978 I would suggest that there has been a substantial negative shift in perceptions about the US in subsequent years.  Anyone but Bush would be welcome.  I frankly don't believe many people overseas would know enough about the differences between Hillary and Obama to make a distinction.  I can think of several reasons why an Obama presidency might even be more warmly received but none of them are grounded in fact.  More people overseas know of Hillary, that's for sure.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:25:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hate to break this to you (none / 0)

Well, you know better than I do, but common sense tells me Hillary would pretty much make an automatically positive first impression just because it would look like a restoration of an administration that was popular overseas.  With Obama they'd probably have less of an initial sense of what he's all about.  (What would the Arab countries think, I wonder - a guy whose father was Muslim, but who personally rejects Islam in favor of Christianity, and someone who's talked about sending a message that Islam needs to modernize?  I'm not sure.)

When all is said and done, world reaction will end up being formed by what the next President actually does, anyway.  The goal here is not so much turning around world opinion on day one, not that I'd mind.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:34:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hate to break this to you (none / 0)

Hillary is certainly better known.  Obama has made quite a splash in Australia, of course, and his nemesis in now no longer in office.  I am not qualified to make any judgement on the popularity of the two respective presidencies and if I did so it was unintentional and to be regretted.

My point is that the American brand is in far worse condition, perhaps only superficially among our allies, than you would imagine from a diet of Stateside media.  An entire generation has come of age in a world with the spectre of an American bully at large.  I cop a lot of flak on general principles, especially from young people.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well... (none / 0)

If we don't fix our foreign policy problems your ten most important domestic agendas are going to be profoundly and adversely impacted.  It's not just a matter of our favourability rating, our ability to operate and conduct our global business are being constrained while challenges we have ignored are growing stronger every day.  First things first.  If you break it you buy it.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Will Obama join Sharpton and ask Daley to refrain from torturing African-Americans in the Cook County jail system?  


by truthteller2007 on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:11:37 AM EST

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Very interesting diary, Shaun.  I feel Obama really does offer something intriguing on foreign policy, unlike domestic policy where I really do feel he is a little too submissive to the Beltway CW.

I have no problem at all with traditional Democratic foreign policy but I do think it suffers from the Achilles' heel that in practice, we must constantly compromise our priorities in order to avoid the dreaded appearance of weakness.  I don't know if this problem would get any better if we implemented the Obama Doctrine, but I'm certainly willing to try a new paradigm and see what happens.

One thing I appreciate on a meta level is that Obama seems to have a genuine interest in foreign policy, something not as standard among Democrats as it ought to be, and a real desire to engage the right advisors and think through the big issues.  This lends itself to a certain confidence where he's not constantly articulating principles I like only to walk them back once the pundits gasp in horror because he's violated the CW.  How well I remember John Kerry bringing up the "global test" and then spending the next week trying to explain his way out from under a Republican caricature of his meaning.  None of that in 2008, please.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:20:43 AM EST

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

No, it's tricky territory.  Obama's foreign policy positions are what attracted me to his candidacy and he has not disappointed as the campaign has progressed, quite the contrary.  It is one of his inherent strengths in spite of the narratives used to attack his novel positions.  He seems to stick to his guns pretty well and, as I have tried to point out in other diaries, he has already shaped conventional wisdom with some of these positions in the course of the campaign.  Always a good omen.

The thing that impresses me with harnessing the American exceptionalism argument for international politics is that it channels the nationalist energies of the electorate away from war or isolationism, the Scylla and Charybdis of our foreign policy since the 19th century.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:34:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Actually his foreign policy scares the crap out of me.

Infact that is one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with his candidacy.

Meeting one on one with all of these dictators is not something I believe in , I don't even think Obama believes in it , its just a position he was boxed into by politics.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Well, we certainly disagree about that.  I think it is hard to characterise Obama's foreign policy positions as expedient, given that they are consistent and coherent, aligned in principle.  But suit yourself.

Do you believe in American exceptionalism as described above?  That there is a role for the United States to play in world affairs, perhaps even beyond immediate self-interest?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:47:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Because the current way of foreign policy that Hillary wants to continue has worked so well...

I like that he is willing to meet with them.  Meeting with them and actually doing something with them are two very different things.  You seem to automatically assume a meeting by President Obama would lead to them getting everything they want.  Its a discussion, much like military leaders met before the start of a battle during the middle ages to give one last resolving effort a chance.  The stipulations, etc that Hillary wants are nothing but playing politics with the situations.  Sitting down and listening I have no issues with, and there is no doubt in my mind that Obama would insist on some of those stips hillary wants before even talking to them, when they decide to do business, write a treaty etc.  THe end game is the same, except Obama's way produces less ill will.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 10:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

As the deeply grateful son of immigrants myself, I really like his embrace of American Exceptionalism (to validate my parents sacrifices?) which is derived from his living overseas and being the son of an immigrant (and from Africa too!).  This background makes foreign policy personal to him.

This belief will provide the oomph for a more likely aggressive and proactive foreign policy compared to one that is passive and reactive.  Some others might be satisfied with the world exhale after Bush is gone, but I am confident that Obama will not stop there - he will push it.  That is exciting.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:46:22 AM EST

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

No, more like exploring and expanding our common areas of self interest to attack existing and prevent future problems aggressive.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Churn and burn (none / 0)

the best empty suit money can buy


by marketingman on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:44:57 AM EST

Re: Churn and burn (none / 0)


[The Big Lie] was defined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf as a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".

Wikipedia - Big Lie


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Churn and burn (none / 0)

the best empty suit money can buy


by marketingman on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:45:24 AM EST

Obama on America (none / 0)

I appreciate what you were trying to do but you are totally wrong in your understanding of the concept of American exceptionalism. (Going to Wikipedia for a cut and paste definition is lazy intellectually). Obama has done the work, most likely reading Toqueville (mandatory reading in freshmen gov courses) and the body of work that Democracy in America gave birth too. Exceptionalism also is important in domestic policy issues (We never had feudalism here). Anyway, interesting argument, but,as one of my professors always said, FIRST DO THE READING BEFORE YOU OPINE!


by NYWoman on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:32:20 AM EST

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Um, you obviously don't know Shaun or his background.  May I suggest you not make comments like that.  If you want to engage, then be like gladiator and do it respectfully.  Otherwise, prepare to be intellectually bit-slapped by him.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 10:30:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Whether the notion of American exceptionalism is historically accurate, in practice, or indeed whether it is merely used, historically, to justify our actions in foreign policy to the domestic consumer is not the point.  The academic view, with accretions of meaning, and doubts as to the unexceptional quality of 'American exceptionalism' or it's malpractice does not give academics exclusive rights to negate the idea itself.

What specifically do you disagree with in the Wikipedia definition?  It seemed quite balanced and comprehensive to me.  A dissenting view, with tongue in cheek:


To what extent American exceptionalism is responsible for the country's neo-imperialistic foreign policy is difficult to judge, but as no man or woman exists outside his or her culture, it seems likely that the people making US foreign policy do so with the inherent belief of the American: that they know best.

And as long as they have the power, they will, in all likelihood, continue `to know best'.  Understanding this American need to feel special,
unappealing as it may be to the outsider, might nonetheless prompt one to be less judgemental about their floundering self-glorification. They are, after all, for better or for worse, exceptional.

Martin Sellevold - The Australian Realist Number 65

I don't see how the noisome quality American exceptionalism has acquired by misuse and the judgement of historians and policy-makers erodes it's significance if one uses the natural meaning which de Toqueville himself ascribed to it.  Your comments welcomed.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:16:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Honestly (none / 0)

I am a firm supporter of Obama, but on the issue of "American exceptionalism" he is merely the lesser of evils. I think the idea of "American exceptionalism" is an idea that needs to die. Good riddance, gone, see you later, DIE. I like Obama's foreign policy, and I think he has an appropriate view of the U.S. role, except that I think we should cut this crap about us being an example or a shining beaken, or even an embodiment or purveyor of some wonderful "ideals."  The U.S. "ideals" abroad have caused more harm than any country since WWII. And certainly we haven't done much better at other times in our history. If we have done good things for the world at isolated moments in history (parts of WWII, creating the UN) it was not through something exceptional about America, but because of the individuals who sacrificed and worked so hard to make it so. America as an idea or ideal deserves none of the credit. Really, we need to just get over ourselves.

I realize Obama can't go up there and say this. I'm just arguing, here on this blog, lets be frank. American exceptionalism is a terrible idea, that we should work as hard as possible to eviscerate.


better luck next universe
by thenew on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:25:28 AM EST

Re: Honestly (none / 0)

Perhaps the point about American exceptionalism is not that we purvey 'ideals' but that we have a unique origin which arguably influences and augments our dealings with other nations.  Without placing a value judgement on the merits or otherwise of our origins it is hard to imagine, given the depth to which this experience still inform our self-image, that we could do otherwise.

Our exceptionalism is merely an idea, not a practice.  It could manifest in many ways and historically speaking many of them are deserving of your criticism.  But past practice does not change the circumstances of our origin and while we have recoiled from exceptionalism due to it's negative historical associations that is not to say the notion itself is ipso facto corrupt or flawed.  It depends on the context and manner of practice and may speak more about how we construct and interpret our foreign policy than how it is perceived from outside.

This apparent attempt to rescue a widely discredited notion and use it, sparingly but consciously, to reinvigorate American foreign policy strikes me as both bold and clever on Obama's part.  He seems to constrain his statement carefully to indicate the exceptionalism he is referring to and it conforms closely to the one de Toqueville noted in the first place.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama on America (none / 0)

I don't consider people's backgrounds but rather what they write here. (I have no desire to spew out what own academic degrees or experience abroad here because this is a democratic blog where all should have an equal voice). My  point was not to insult anyone, especially Shawn who often is insightful.  I simply said if you haven't done the reading, don't opine on something as complex as American exceptionalism. I am sorry but a paste and cut exerpt from Wikipedia doesn't cut it for me. We all can do much better.


by NYWoman on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 10:58:48 AM EST

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

I would be interested to hear more specifics of your criticism.  How have I erred in presenting the academic view of American exceptionalism or it's interpretation?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:53:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just for The Record (none / 0)


Among the novel objects that attracted my attention during my stay in the United States, nothing struck me more forcibly than the general equality of condition among the people. I readily discovered the prodigious influence that this primary fact exercises on the whole course of society; it gives a peculiar direction to public opinion and a peculiar tenor to the laws; it imparts new maxims to the governing authorities and peculiar habits to the governed.

I soon perceived that the influence of this fact extends far beyond the political character and the laws of the country, and that it has no less effect on civil society than on the government; it creates opinions, gives birth to new sentiments, founds novel customs, and modifies whatever it does not produce. The more I advanced in the study of American society, the more I perceived that this equality of condition is the fundamental fact from which all others seem to be derived and the central point at which all my observations constantly terminated.

Alexis de Toqueville - De la démocratie en Amérique (Democracy In America) 1835

Is that what all the fuss is about?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Like the people of most nations we can look back in awe and appreciation, and in disgust and shame, at certain of our periods and people and events. America the 'first' democracy was a great exception 230 years ago and still in Tocqueville's time, but then Europe and other places caught up and imho surpassed us in that critical feature of our nation.

There's nothing earth-shaking or really very upsetting about the above. I think that most Americans are more than capable of dealing with our current real lack of exceptionalism, in the sense the term is used by political theorists; like every nation, of course, America is still exceptional in lots of wonderful mostly cultural ways (the important stuff, like hot dogs, The Onion, hoops, Britney, hog calls and so on).

Obama's harping on this:

1. has that professorial talking down, lack of respect for average folks' common sense, aspect that is one of his significant political flaws (that will be overlooked by the mainstream media).

2. is a nod to the foreign policy establishment, i.e., the globalist/interventionist powers that be.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 11:52:15 AM EST

Re: Obama on America (none / 0)

Your comment about hot dogs and hog-calls was both insightful and amusing.  It's curious that having lived abroad for so long I have come to have a pretty jaded view of American foreign policy and the self-aggrandising insularity which inevitably accompanies it.  But on reflection the same experience lends credence, at least with me, to this notions of American exceptionalism, at least in it's original form.

And as far as 'talking down' to the average folks, it seems to me that the notion of American exceptionalism is a populist one, more credible among the population than it is among academics and intellectuals.  I'm guessing that the people will need to support him on this as the professors will savage him for it.  And there's nothing about exceptionalism which says we will be interventionist, necessarily, although there is certainly an implication there, but rather what values will be applied when intervention arises.

The great risk to our foreign policy in the wake of a tragic, shameful war is the tendency for us to slip back into insular isolation, an outcome which I believe would be detrimental to our interests at this time.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:50:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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