Obama's Fate

The other day I mentioned that I had a nagging skepticism about Obama's electability in the general election, were he to get the nomination, which deserves an explanation.

First, let me just say that anyone who accuses skin color as some part behind the reasoning will find themselves banned--there is zero tolerance for accusations of racism. I don't even view Obama as black or with racial distinction. Identity-wise, I can understand why he's seen as such, but in that regard (and I have two kids with this same beauty), it points to a bright future when such fallacies such as 'race' become historical dust, and racism ceases. One day, let's hope. Having black skin is not totally gone as an electability issue, but it's as negligible as being a woman, a southerner, or a northeasterner. You can ask Harold Ford if you doubt it's still an issue in certain races-- but nevermind, because he would have to say otherwise in public, and I hope one day he will be able to win in Tennessee-- but it no longer is an insurmountable hurdle to being elected President.

The skepticism about Obama's electability isn't grounded in empirical polling (which are too early to matter); instead, it's more just a feeling that, given how well he's positioned his candidacy with the media's blessing, he's setting himself up for being torn down without a partisan base to rely upon for pushing back.

Yes, right now, Obama does pretty well among Republicans & Independents. But there's been more and more of a dissonance growing between Obama's campaign and among progressive partisan Democrats.

Obama has certain strengths, you cannot deny that his brand of personality-based politics has been very effective. I can see, from the point of view of the Obama campaign, why they would rather grow their own movement that's centered around Obama, instead of around a progressive Democratic partisan movement. It allows them a lot more control of their message and campaign actions. It even, I think you could argue given the potential numbers of Obama supporters, become a more organized force locally, but that's unknown. He's got the qualities and the campaign is fully maximizing this advantage in the primary.

And his ability to parlay that into a 'working together' bipartisan  general election campaign has a compelling electability attraction. But the weakness in his campaign, his shunning of a partisan base of Democrats, won't become obvious until it is fatal to those chances. That's the nagging suspicion that arose again when I read through the "liberal views could hurt Obama" piece on Politico.

As a Democrat that just wants to win (and fight the progressive battles once we have a formidable majority), it's very compelling to listen to voter testimonials out of New Hampshire and hear a young conservative voter tell you his favorite's are Obama and Giuliani. It gives us a chance among voters that tend to not give the Democratic Party an opening. But then you listen to that voters number one issues, abortion and taxes, and I question how deep his support for Obama might actually be once the rightwing propoganda machine moves into attack mode.

Obama provides the opening, but through something as simple one of those asinine candidate questionnaire's that we wrote against practicing in CTG, which he answered in '96, it's easy to envision his losing that opportunity.

Obama's campaign answers such questions:

"Do you support capital punishment, criminal prosecution of juveniles as adults, mandatory sentencing?" No

"Do you support state legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns?" Yes

"Do you support Medicaid funding of abortions, insurance coverage of abortion for state employees." Yes

"Do you support parental notifications for minors seeking abortions, or any other restrictions on abortions." No

Obama's defense, which has become emblematic, is to blame his staff for being cast as a liberal:

A week after Politico provided the questionnaire to the Obama campaign for comment, an aide called Monday night to say that Obama had said he did not fill out the form, and provided a contact for his campaign manager at the time, who said she filled it out. It includes first-person comments such as: "I have not previously been a candidate."

Regardless, the blunt statements of his earlier views, preserved on a questionnaire he filled out for an Illinois voter group that later endorsed him, would allow a Republican opponent to paint him as being way to the left of the nation's electorate on questions that have historically been potent wedge issues.

All have the right answers from the POV of a liberal, but these are all deal-killers among conservatives. Just his positioning on guns puts into very questionable status such states such as West Virginia, Ohio, Missouri, and Pennsylvania, along with the entire southwest/rocky mountain region.

Campaign advisers say that Obama's positions reflect his willingness to remain true to his values, whatever the cost. Obama has argued that he can "change the game" of American politics, and doesn'Obama has distanced himself from partisan Democrats, and has no experience of the hostile and polarized political environment that he'd enter were he to win the nomination. It's not spin to be skeptical of his chances. Obama has distanced himself from partisan Democrats, and has no experience of the hostile and polarized political environment that he'd enter were he to win the nomination. It's not spin to be skeptical of his chances. t need to play by the cautious old rules.

"His views are very much in the mainstream of the Democratic Party," said chief strategist David Axelrod

That's true, and in black and white like this, I question as to how his 'mainstream democratic' viewpoints play out in a general election.

Put more bluntly, Republicans think his high-minded approach to issues could make him a sitting duck as he tries to attract the vast middle that determines American elections.

Bill Burton, press secretary of Obama for America, said Clinton's campaign has been talking increasingly about how Obama would play in November. "That's their spin," he said.

This questionnaire in and of itself is just one thing, but Obama's response to it coming out is unsettling in it's pattern of positioning himself above the partisan fray. Obama has never faced a serious Republican challenge. Not one. Obama has no experience of the hostile and polarized political environment that he'd enter were he to win the nomination, and he has distanced himself from partisan Democrats during his campaign for the nomination. I don't think it's spin to question how Obama might actually do once he confronts Republicans on the campaign trail, instead of across the table in those bipartisan negotiations he longs for making happen.

My guess is that, once he's personally experienced the confrontation of the Republican machine, it would totally transform the way Obama views campaigns. Rather than viewing partisan progressives as something to Sister Soulja while he appeases the non-partisan media machine, he would come to realize the value, in today's partisan environment, of engaging partisan Democrats as part of his campaign. He'd prepare to battle with us, rather than trash us as tokens of the past.

He'd also learn that there is not a middle voter to seduce, that about 95% of this country goes in leaning, and though they might take a glance the other way, they ultimately find a reason, thanks in large part to the Republican propoganda machine, to not go against their initial lean.

It's not spin to be skeptical of Obama's chances. Edwards, who has been through this in 2004, realizes the value of partisan alliance and has positioned himself accordingly, through both message and online tactics. Clinton, who has been through the battles in the 1990's, relishes the chance to go to battle once again, this time with a partisan online movement behind her.

For Democrats that think about how a campaign might position itself best to win, the question really comes down to this: Do you believe that this nation is going to transcend partisan politics in 2008?  

If you believe that's true, and are willing to bet that personality-based politics can rise above partisan-politics, then you are probably betting on Obama's campaign strategy. If you think like me, that a campaign having it's partisan-base in order is the number one priority, than you are in alliance with the campaign strategies of Edwards and Clinton. It's really a question of whether the Democrats are going into battle in 2008 as Obama's personality movement or as a progressive partisan movement.

Update [2007-12-11 15:10:4 by Jerome Armstrong]: LOL, predictably, another pitiful staffer goes under the bus instead of Obama taking responsibility for having changed some positions:
REALITY: As evidence of Obama's "unabashedly liberal positions," the reporter points to a questionnaire that Obama never saw or approved. It was filled out by an aide who has conceded she never got Obama's sign-off. Some of the answers accurately reflect Obama's position. Others do not.
The "aide" was actually the Campaign Manager, writing such first-person comments as: "I have not previously been a candidate."

Update [2007-12-11 15:25:36 by Jerome Armstrong]: Asking, "how will Obama fare against the right-wing hit machine?" Tom Watson suggests "not so well" as one part of the answer - and "not nearly as well as Hillary Clinton," as the second part:

Say what you will about Hillary Clinton, she's been vetted. Fully. Completely. The skeletons aren't in her closet - they're on the front lawn. She's by far the best-known quantity in this race nationally, on either side. Heck, we also know far more about John Edwards, who underwent the full national scrutiny of a campaign in 2004. In some ways, they've been inoculated - you can expose them to the germs, but the disease won't take. Not so, Obama. Politico's piece on Obama is just a hint of what the Republicans would use against him as the Democratic nominee.
Meanwhile, in another poll, John Edwards does the best among all Dems at crushing the Republicans.



Display:


Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 3)

" It's really a question of weather the Democrats are going into battle in 2008 as Obama's personality movement or as a progressive partisan movement."

No, that's simply the way that you've decided to cast his candidacy.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:27:23 PM EST

Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

is why people are putting all of this value on Hillary Clinton's experience at "winning elections." This argument borders on ridiculous. She won her 2000 election against an unknown Congressman, under-performing Gore's margin in NY by something like 15%. Also, bonus points to you if you remember the name of the guy she ran against in 2006--that election was virtually as unopposed as Obama's in 2004.

There's no denying that Hillary Clinton is a great politician, but I don't see what gives her this "aura of electability" that so many people attribute to her. She doesn't do any better in head-to-head polling that Obama. They're both quite politically adept, as they've proven throughout the campaign. When you look at the numbers, Jerome's argument here just doesn't hold up. At this point, he seems to be grasping at straws he himself is creating.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

As we've seen over the last couple months, Hillary has no more put together an invincible campaign than anyone else has.  They're just as prone to gaffes and poor judgment as the other campaigns.

I think the argument with respect to Hillary is that she's been put through the wringer by the right-wing for 15 years now and she's still politically viable.  Compare, say, John Kerry whose favorables have never recovered from one nasty campaign.  The assumption is that with all the crap that's been flung at Hillary over the years, it's unclear what more the Republicans could possibly have in reserve.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's all fine (none / 0)

I just don't think Jerome's analysis rests on a lot of faulty assumptions and personal biases/sensitivities. Obama is running as the Democratic nominee. If he gets the nomination, he will have the full support of the Democratic and progressive community behind him, as would any other candidate. Just because he isn't running with the Howard Dean 2004/John Edwards 2008 rhetoric doesn't mean everyone in the party who likes that style is just going to decide not to be engaged in the process after he wins. Many of the people who were Dean supporters in the 2004 primary worked just as hard for Kerry during the general.

Also, Kerry's favorability was trashed after he botched that joke during the last few days of the 2006 midterms. Up until that point, he seemed pretty serious about putting together another run.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

first line was wrong (none / 0)

rather, i do think it rests on faulty assumptions


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (none / 0)

Yes, Kerry seemed serious, but I don't know anyone who actually thought he stood a chance.  I mean, in Chris Dodd's mind he thought he stood a chance of becoming President (enough so that he moved his family to Iowa) but that doesn't mean he was right and the rest of the world was wrong.

The problem with actively distancing yourself from the progressive base is that you may not get as much energy and enthusiasm as you need from them in the general election, and you may have trouble getting them to go to bat for your policies if you become President.  While I don't foresee some massive Nader movement or what have you, I don't see support for Obama as a binary decision.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (2.00 / 1)

What i don't understand is the contention that Obama has distanced himself from or angered the progressive base. It's a meme that exists only on MyDD and a few other blogs. A lack of hyper-partisanship doesn't = abandoning progressive issues.


by animated on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (none / 0)

As fate would have it, I made the case in great detail in this diary.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (2.00 / 2)

Of course - I've seen the case made, often quite cogently, in a handful of posts in the blogosphere. To me, the netroots ambivalence about Obama is understandable - there's a fundamental clash between the partisan bent of the netroots and the conciliary temperament of Obama. If that difference in approach can't be bridged, so be it. But for this to have an impact in the race, it needs to have an effect on the electorate. And it's far from clear to me that Obama is alienating progressives - if anything, I'd wager his supporters at this point are largely those who think Clinton's positions on the war and on foreign policy are too far to the right. There just isn't consistent evidence that Obama won't have the enthusiastic support of leftie activists (vs. Clinton).


by animated on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (none / 0)

people are misreading obama's message of bipartisanship. he's speaking to something larger than legislative cooperation. he has to address the concerns of people who would worry that he would only be focused on addressing so called black issues. not everybody understands that issues such as living wage, affordable housing and quality education are universial. this message of unity reassures people that he would govern inclusively.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:17:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's all fine (none / 0)

I agree Max (and we share a first name). In fact, I just wrote an extended diary outlining the personal biases that I think Jerome demonstrates in the piece.


by Ozymandias on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (2.00 / 1)

It remains to see how well Hillary stands up to attacks in a presidential campaign against the Republicans. We've seen how she's fared against Obama. In fact, a diary assessing how Hillary would perform in the general would probably be more helpful, considering she's still the prohibitive favorite.

Bill was the main target of Republican attacks during the 90s, and he pulled through because of his charm and personality - traits it's not clear Hillary has. If a candidate comes off as cold and brittle, the media tends to dig their claws in. It's the reason Bush was able to edge out Gore, despite the record of the Clinton years.

And if you don't think her liberal positions offer fodder for them, watch out. Obama may have answered a questionnaire fifteen years ago, but there's a whole library devoted to what happened during the 90s, including plenty of "extreme" statements on things like abortion and gun control just waiting to be rediscovered by the Republicans.


by animated on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:01:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

it is all about Media spin.  Clinton has taken hits from all sides and she is still doing fine.  Obama has had nothing but favorable media.  It is not going to be that way in the GE.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:05:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

no on would run against her in 06 and she ran rudy out of the race in 00 when the state had a gop gov and state house.

MISS THOSE MINOR DETAILS HUH?


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Both.  Progressive and personality -- and CHANGE -- with a dash of openness.  We will need all to win in November.


by howardpark on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wrong (none / 0)

that is the way Obama has decided to cast his candidacy and he decided it long before he admitted he was running.  See his dkos diaries as proof.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Maybe Jeromne and I are wrong, but I see it his way as well. These are honest opinions. Jerome did not CHOOSE to cast it that way, he sees it that way.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

To go in one cycle from John Kerry, one of the most broadly experienced and qualified nominees in my lifetime- to Obama- who would easily be the least- would be quite a seismic shift, and I just don't see how it could (and I pray it won't) happen.


by NYFM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:28:57 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Worked well, the last time didn't it?


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

In fact it did, in case you didn't notice Kerry all but won.


by NYFM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Now I didn't notice actually, what with all the damage the chimp has done in the three years since. Unfortunately, almost just doesn't get you anywhere in politics.


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

And Lincoln was qualified?  Eisenhower?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

as a matter of fact both were more qualified than Obama.  However it is not 1860 anymore and it is not even 1950, so your point is rather pointless.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ARE YOU KIDDING? (none / 0)

we'll leave abe to your fanatsies - but IKE?

Are they drugging you people or something?

tell me - this is the new line from camp obama - please tell me this!!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

20 minute post (1.50 / 2)

Wow! Couldn't stand having a pro-Obama diary at the top of the page could you Jerome.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:30:02 PM EST

Re: 20 minute post (2.00 / 1)

Hey why don't you address the substance of the diary , rather than attacking the messenger.

If you don't like the diary , you might as well go into the pro obama diary and live in utopia


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

That presumes that there is "substance" to attack.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

No, it's a interesting post I just wanted to comment on the timing. Front page articles are usually give some time at the top to collect comments.

It's funny really.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

it's a conspiracy no doubt.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

apparently you can feel free to do whatever you want when it's your blog.


www.adamconner7.com
by Adam Conner on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:38:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Good post. It very hard to believe that Obama would get a lot support from indies and moderate Republicans once the GOP has done its thing. More than Clinton, perhaps. Fewer than Edwards, I'd guess.

One thing working in Obama's favor is that the press loves him. That's a fact, something that hasn't been true of a leading Dem since--since when? You suggest. Jerome, that the MSM will turn on him but experience tells us that once the they have a crush a la McCain, they tends to stick with it.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:31:26 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Actually , No.

The press has thrwon Mccain into the sewer.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain is FAR from done. (2.00 / 1)

Pray that he is - but understand that he isnt.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is FAR from done. (none / 0)

He might be Hillary's nightmare next year....


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is FAR from done. (none / 0)


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is FAR from done. (none / 0)

he is any dems nightmaire -
all dems nightmare -
my nightmare.
Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Yeah, I think the press still has the Saint's back. Wait till he wins New Hampshire.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ohmygod (none / 0)

youve been having that nightmare too!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:25:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ohmygod (none / 0)

The corporatist press will tear Senator 'Hope' to bloody shreds, metaphorically speaking.

He won't even know what hit him.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

When we win NH, it'll be over.


by aiko on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ts comforting to realize (none / 0)

that you guys actually believe what is said on hardball.

you just dont get it at all.

cool!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Tweety has jumped off the Saint McCain bandwagon .. he's been fawning over Rudy and Frederick of Hollywood


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the press love him because (2.00 / 1)

he is running to them.

He caters to the villages concerns.  From the idea that SS is in "crisis" to telling those horrid teachers unions that merit pay is a fine idea.

His ONLY chance from the start was to get the media machine to root and actively push for him aand AGAINST  his opponents.

Since his major opponent has the lastt name of Clintton it wsnt hard to figure out how tto play tthat card.

Justt reinforce the media's longstanding fude and resentment of all things Clinton.

ndof course as the Daily Howler says, in the media  idea of Clinton Rules" -

rule 1-theres no attack that is out of bounds  if iots on a Clinton {or a Gore}

rule 2 - the Clintons are never allowed ever to defend themselves, without being accused of starting the fight themselves.

The Howler, who says he is now considering Dennis, is with Jerome here  and is very upset with how team obama has gone after Krugman and run their campaign.

Lefty Dems ought to listen to these fellows before we put ourselves in a trap we cant get out of.
-----

By the way, any dem who has ever said we should ban handguns will never get to 1600.

Internal union polling has shown that he would lose heavily with the membership.  


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I've argued in the past that Obama should use the Democratic primaries to practice the techniques that he would use in a general election against a Republican.  Obama (and other candidates) need to go negative against their current opponents in order to sway me to the opinion that they have what it takes to win against Republicans.

Is going on the offensive against Krugman the type of aggressiveness that you would want to see from Obama if he became the nominee?


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:32:10 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

are you saying you liked his going after krugman? i dont know why quoting krugman's own words is deemed aggressive...


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:59:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 4)

Because I actually read the diary, I will answer the question it poses:

Do you believe that this nation is going to transcend partisan politics in 2008?

No, I do not.  In fact, I believe the divisions are more acute than ever.  And if anyone recalls the results of 2006, one realizes that the American public is clamoring for a partisan Democrat who will actually enact progressive change.  To dismiss the results of 2006 as so much political toxic waste is a grave error.  Indeed, it will alienate a large portion of the electorate that became energized during the 2006 cycle.  Because I desire to avert an electoral disaster, I believe our candidates should marshal this energy, not squander it in the name of a nebulous post-partisan politics.  


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:35:24 PM EST

That IS the question (none / 0)

Especially when you consider what the "partisan" fighting is about:
torture vs. no torture
teaching our kids creationism (religious dogma) vs. evolution (real science)
evesdropping on American citizens without warrants vs. enforcing Constitutional "probable cause"
endless incarceration of suspects vs. writ of habeus corpus
and on and on...
Where are the compromises on these issues? The Bush administration has taken this country to political realms that were unheard of just a few years ago, and now we are being told that we have to compromise and accept some of their extremist position? Any candidate running on this platform will not energize the progressive base.
Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

first, who is asking us to compromise on such issues as torture? second, kerry didn't exactly energize the progressive base, but he got bigger numbers than i expected he would get. people understood getting rid of bush was more important.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:46:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

First, Obama has stated that he is "against" torture but he hasn't made it a priority in his campaign and he didn't show any leadership in the Senate in trying to close the loopholes in the McCain anti-torture bill. And although he did oppose Mukasey for AG, he came out days after Dodd did, and he didn't lead the filibuster against FISA revison. Dodd did. The primary message of the Obama campaign is to "reach out" to Republicans and find "common ground" to "unite" America. Doesn't this imply concessions to the Republicans on issues that they are most adamant about? John Edwards' primary message is "I will fight for you." Sounds 'bout right to me. Second, this is not 2004. The mood of the progressive-minded electorate is buoyed by the '06 election and the expectations for the candidates are higher.


Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

The primary message of the Obama campaign is to "reach out" to Republicans and find "common ground" to "unite" America.

obama has to put out a bipartisanship message because there are people who worry that he would only be concerned and preoccupied with so called black issues at the expense of white folk. not everybody understands that issues such as a living wage and quality education are universal. this unity message sends reassurance to such people that he would govern inclusively.

white candidates aren't burdened with this misconception.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

So what are you saying--that Obama has to operate under some sort of "black man's burden" of not being too confrontational? And what are these "so called black issues"? Are you saying that for any black candidate to be successful, he/she has to present a conciliatory frame for arguments that might raise the hackles of "white folk" (whoever these people are)? I hope that's not what you mean because then that means that in the general election Obama would have a disadvantage of not appearing too confrontational when calling out the republican candidate for presenting an extremist platform.


Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:56:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

anybody who had heard his jefferson jackson speech wouldn't accuse him of being afraid of being confrontational.

some highlights from that speech :

-i am in this race to tell the corporate lobbyists that their days of setting the agenda in washington are over. i have done more that any other candidate in this race to take on the lobbyists and i have won. [a reference to his ethics reform bill he got passed] they have not funded my campaign, they will not work in my whitehouse and they will not drown out the voices of the american people when i am president.

-i am in this race to take those tax breaks from the companies moving jobs overseas. and put them back in the pockets of the hardworking americans who deserve it.

-i am running for president because i am sick and tired of democrats thinking the only way to look tough on national security is by talking and acting and voting like george bush republicans.

-when i am this party's nominee, my opponent wont be able to say i voted for the war in iraq. or that i gave george bush the benefit of a doubt on iran. or that i support bush/cheney policy of not talking to leaders that we don't like. and he will not be able to say that i waivered on something as fundamental on whether or not it is ok for america to torture - because it is never ok. that's why i'm in it.

-as president i will end the war in iraq. we will have our troops home in 16 months. i will close guantanamo, i will restore habeas corpus, i will finish the fight against al qaeda. and i will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century. nuclear weapons and terrorism. climate change and poverty. genocide and disease.

-and i will send, i will send once more a message, to those yearning faces beyond our shores, that says: you matter to us. your future is our future, and our moment is now. america, our moment is now. our moment is now.

[...]

-and if those republicans come at me with the same fear-mongering and swift boating that they usually do, then i will take them head on. because i believe the american people are tired of fear and tired of disctraction and tired of diversions. we can make this election not about fear but about the future. and that wont just be a democratic victory, that will be an american victory. and that is a victory that america needs right now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tydfsfSQiYc

a transcript doesn't do justice to the fire in his voice.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

This hardly clarifies your argument that Obama must present a platform of unity to a "white folk" audience (guess there weren't any of them at the Jefferson-Jackson Dinner) who may have antipathy to progressive issues (whichBTW is pretty debatable because right now many progressive issues actually score highly favorable in polls). The way that Obama has framed Social Security (that it's in crisis) and Universal Health Care (that it doesn't need to be universal) gives too much away to the other side. A candidate who promises to "fight" for progressive causes (as Edwards does) presents a clearer message to the electorate, which as evidenced by the '06 election, is ready for it.


Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

A candidate who promises to "fight" for progressive causes (as Edwards does) presents a clearer message to the electorate, which as evidenced by the '06 election, is ready for it.

his voting record doesn't show him as a progressive. not only did he voted for the bankruptcy bill, he voted down a wellstone amendment that would have excused medical expenses. the main reason people are driven to bankruptcy is because of medical emergencies.

when on an abc interview, edwards was faced with the litany of votes that he had cast as senator. when asked to accounted why he supported such issues then (such as the bankruptcy bill, patriot act, nclb, all the free trade deals, etc) but is running against now - edwards was unable to explain the shift. how did he go from DLC darling (bruce reed endorsed him early in o3) to rebel populist ? that's quite a transformation, from one end of the spectrum to the other. and he's unable to explain why.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:37:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

I did not see the interview you refer to but many of the policy decisions you bring up were pushed through by Democratic leaders who Edwards now concedes that he was too conciliatory with. NAFTA and the bankruptcy legislation were conceived under the direction of the Clinton administration, and NCLB and the Patriot Act had strong Democratic support. What Edwards didn't fully comprehend--and indeed most Americans didn't either, as these all enjoyed popular support--is how lobbyists and influencers behind these policies "stacked the deck" in their favor to write in terms, conditions, and loop-holes that benefit their interests over ordinary Americans. Furthermore, much of what Edwards stands for now has always been a cornerstone of his previous campaigns. He has always championed minimum wage, patients bill of rights, family leave, unionization of workers, and many other progressive platforms. His "two Americas" stump speech is nothing "new". While I agree that a candidate's record of voting on past legislation is important, it has to be balanced  with how the candidate stands on the issues NOW. Regarding NAFTA, Obama just voted for the Peru trade agreement, another NAFTA-type policy that Edwards spoke out against.  


Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 02:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

just to be clear, nafta was before edwards time.

obama didn't vote for the peru deal. neither did hillary.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

You brought NAFTA into the argument. I'm just saying that it was supported by Dem leadership. I may not have been technically correct about Obama's vote for Peru free trade, but he did "support" it, which in this case amounted to a vote for it:
"Among the Democratic senators running for president -- all of whom missed the vote to attend a debate in Iowa -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois have supported the agreement, while Sen. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware have opposed it. Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards has also opposed it."
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pe ru5dec05,1,7097390.story
Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

NAFTA and the bankruptcy legislation were conceived under the direction of the Clinton administration

clinton vetoed one version of the bankruptcy bill. said it was too hard on debtors. edwards voted for it anyways.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

My own Rep, a liberal Dem named David Price, worked "with the Clinton administration" to write the bankruptcy bill. Sorry I can't give you a link. He told me this in an airport lounge after I asked him about why he supported the bill. He felt the bill would in the long run benefit debtors. I'm not sure how he feels about it now.


Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

Doesn't this imply concessions to the Republicans on issues that they are most adamant about?

no it doesn't. obama worked with dick lugar to pass a nuclear non-proliferation bill. is that something you oppose?

obama is now working with coburn to pass a transparency in government spending bill. is that something you oppose?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

No and no. But these issues are not at the top of most people's concerns right now (although I agree that they are important and I commend Obama for his leadership on them). We'll see how far they get in this Congress.


Speak out for the education our children deserve!
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:59:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

"Edwards, who has been through this in 2004, realizes the value of partisan alliance and has positioned himself accordingly, through both message and online tactics."

yeah, its working really well for him...


by cwreno2001 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:36:18 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

how can you run for 2 seasons straight in one state and not be the leading contender? what does that say about edwards?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

So first Obama is attacked because he's not progressive enough, and now he's being attacked because is too progressive.

Sorry Obama doesn't speak the language of the blogosphere. And why should he? Normal people with real lives are connecting with him. He can afford to leave you people behind.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:39:07 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 2)

Okay, so not everyone who runs the site is an Obama supporter: I stand corrected.  This was a great piece because it underscores that Obama is really an "accidental" senator in that his primary and general election opponents in 2004 were both scandal-laced, and even in his state senate district he never really faced significant Republican opposition.  Clinton is ready to "go to war."  I'm not knocking Obama because he's black.  I'm black.  And I don't think Jerome is racist, but the "you will be banned" comment went a little far!  The only thing I can say is that liberalism of Obama's type is best when it is tempered with down-home authenticity, toughness and religiosity in the manner of Carter.  Carter wasn't a movement.  He was a visionary whom people trusted.  The electorate is different from the American public.  The electorate is conservative.  The American public is liberal.  The electorate only votes for those they know they can trust.  When Obama says that he wants to take away people's guns and appreciates when teenagers get pregnant and get an abortion with no one finding out, the electorate will place their trust elsewhere with the quickness.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:39:29 PM EST

Carter (none / 0)

That's who Obama reminds me of, and that's what worries me even more than the electability question. Will he govern like Carter? Carter was an ineffective one-term president. His policies were mostly middle-of-the road or Republican-lite. For example he deregulated the airlines. And we know what a mess that has turned out to be.

I don't believe that Obama has the political skills to deal with Congress, fight the GOP to get bills passed, get his nominees confirmed, etc. I also worry about how much energy and expertise he will be able to marshal to drive much needed change in many areas - the mess at DOJ, the environment & energy policy, health care, labor and education.

He does strike me as an "above the fray" Adlai Stevenson-type character who really won't be able to get much done as president if he gets that far.

Edwards strikes me as someone "on a mission". He's got energy and the drive to push meaningful legislation through. Can he put together a political team that can handle Congress? I'm not sure, but I think he'd do better than Obama.

My candidate is Clinton. She has read drive and determination and knows how government works in nitty-gritty detail. She wants to enact universal health care. I'm not sure she can manage to get it passed, but she strikes me as the one most likely to really make it happen--with the ability to twist arms to get stuff passed.

I hope the progressive left has learned from the last decade or two that we have to stick by ANY Democratic president, whether he or she is "our guy" or not, and fight against the GOP smear machine that wants to block Democratic success by any and all means.


by Coral on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carter (none / 0)

I don't believe that Obama has the political skills to deal with Congress, fight the GOP to get bills passed,

you didn't hear michelle obama describe how obama was able to get things passed in the contentious chicago state senate while his party was in the minority.

obama has worked with dick lugar before getting legislation passed. a nuclear non-proliferation bill. he just teamed up with coburn to work on a transparency-in-government spending bill.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carter (none / 0)

i can give you more examples if you'd like.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

people are worried about losing their homes and you're hung up on a how-many-years-old? gun question. we don't even know if that's still his position today.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

So what is it?

Basically, even if Obama was sufficiently progressive for you people, his past views will doom him, because they're too progressive?

Gimme a break.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:40:42 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I don't know what other people think, but from my point of view he is neither sufficiently progressive nor too progressive. Some of his rhetoric is progressive but his policy instincts are moderate to conservative. So he is the worst of both worlds, easily attacked rhetoric and policy positions not worth defending.


by souvarine on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

A pragmatic progressive?  Oxymoron for lunch anyone?


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Clinton supported the war with her AUF VOtE

Was that progressive.

She is now against gibing Driver's licenses to il-legal immigrants before she was for it. Was that progressive?

She voted for the KYLE/lIEBERMAN AMMENDMENT. wAS THAT PROGRESSIVE?


by BDM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Nope....

And neither was Obama's vote to extend CAFTA to Peru nor....

His vote to reauthorize the Patriot Act.

Besides, this post isn't about Hillary it's about Lieberman's protege:

Senator 'Hope'.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

So one Senator voted to go to war with another country and another voted to trade with another country, and these are supposed to be cancelling out nonprogressive votes!?  All I can say is that being progressive has a different meaning for you than it does for me, Pericles.


by Counterfactual on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

he didn't vote for the peru deal. neighter did hillary.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:12:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this is a very good post (none / 0)

Jerome, I really appreciate it when you lay out the reasons you are skeptical in a complete post like this.  The other stuff comes out as totally disproportionate to the supposed offense, so it seems personal.  

I do hope Obama and his campaign thinks carefully about these issues, because I know we all want to win in November.


New Jersey politics and news
by John DE on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:41:34 PM EST

Re: this is a very good post (none / 0)

Is someone who points out that Obama will have a tough time getting elected because of bigotry in America get banned as well?


by Boilermaker on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well (none / 0)

My rule of thumb is that if you insult the owner or operator of a website enough you shouldn't be surprised if you get banned.  

Anyway, we Obama supporters are doing just fine on dailykos.  I don't mind if Jerome has concerns, it would be irrational to think everyone in the country would think Obama is the best choice, and certainly I have to admit that those who criticized him have been right at times.  


New Jersey politics and news
by John DE on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:04:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

Obama supporters do well at Daily Kos, as they have banned everyone who supports a different candidate.  


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

How about a mass exodus  of Obama-supporters elsewhere? No reason to hold down the fort here. Pretty soon, this place will resemble Taylor Marsh's site.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

Yes, go to Daily Kos, where Obama supporters ban anyone who attempts to engage them with evidence.


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

Where shall we go?


by aiko on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

I don't know. Its all so weird.

Will this be like this even after Obama is the candidate? Will "Truth"Teller still have the same tagline? Will these guys all leave and come back with new names?

We're so close to the primaries which is the real fun for political junkies that I'll probably stick around. I will probably get banned soon though..


Slash and burn politics baby! Say anything do anything lie cheat steal railroad the opposition into submission: CLINTON FORMULA FOR 2008.
by crackityjones on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:23:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

How about here where the feces-flinging Obama supporters  belong: on the very deepest level of Hades

As a survivor of being multiple troll rated at OrangeLand by such I feel confident that unless Jerome wakes up and takes charge here the same thing will happen.

My momma used to always say you can judge a person by who they associate with. Obama's attempts to distance himself from his own staff won't work and neither will his cultists attempt to troll rate into oblivion anyone who disagrees with his stated 'policies'.

The very fact that they'd try speaks to their commitment to American values of free speech much less giving the lie absolute to Senator Hope's 'progressiveness'.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:48:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

feeling desperate much? depressed? ill? it will be over soon--very soon--you will be ok. everything is going to be ok.


by aiko on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:54:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope you don't do anything rash (none / 0)

when Obama doesn't win the nomination.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you don't do anything rash (none / 0)

我要杀你! !


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you don't do anything rash (none / 0)

what happens at a contested convention?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:17:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this is a very good post (none / 0)

let's see how obama does in iowa first before you start waving your bigotry flag.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:15:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Netroots Fate (none / 0)

Clinton has her partisan base in order?

Which candidate between Obama and Clinton do you think will be more hospitable to the netroots?  With Obama, you will have a seat at the table and if your argument is good enough, it will prevail.  With Clinton, you will have nothing.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:42:21 PM EST

Unions representing close (none / 0)

to Five million American workers now support Hillary.

THAT is our party's "Base".

How many national unions support Obama?

zero


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unions representing close (none / 0)

That would be Zero.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Netroots Fate (none / 0)

that is all such happy horseshit.  I am sorry you believe it.  Obama doesn't care what you think.  Go read his dkos diaries, he is the kind of guy who tells people what they should think and how they should talk.  


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Netroots Fate (2.00 / 0)

that is all such happy horseshit.  I am sorry you believe it.  Obama doesn't care what you think.  Go read his dkos diaries, he is the kind of guy who tells people what they should think and how they should talk.  


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Netroots Fate (none / 0)

aint that the truth. the woman has control issues.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:19:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

Like a lot of people, I was inspired by Obama's 2004 keynote at the convention.  My kids like him, and I really wanted to like him.

But he lost me by repeatedly saying and doing things that attack me, as a progressive Democrat.  Why would I want to support or even defend somebody who won't support or defend me?

He may think triangulating will win him the election.  I doubt it.  And even if it wins the presidency, Bill C showed us that it's a recipe for minority status in Congress.

I don't even know whether Obama understands the kind of defending he'll need if he's the nominee.  I fear he will never know what hit him once the Rove and Norquist and Limbaugh and Robertson people get started.  If he thinks they'll make nice just because he's made nice, he hasn't been paying attention for the last 20 years.  He'll get shredded and so will we.


by DFLer on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:42:48 PM EST

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

They said the same thing about Kennedy in 1960

In 1060 THE Clinton supporter's here would have supported eITHER hUMPHREY OR jOHNSON.

wHO would have lost to Nixon in 1960


by BDM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

hell yes I would have supported LBJ and HHH


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

But why did we win in 1960?  Ironically enough, the Chicago machine!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:41:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

how did he attack you?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:22:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

So let me get this straight.  Someone can slyly argue that race prevents Obama from succeeding (which is the definition of racism), but to challenge the assertion is prohibited?  That's censorship and totalitarianism and it doesn't make a difference that you consider yourself liberal or that you like black babies.

This is precisely why middle america distrusts so-called liberals.  Because they are just as full of sh*t as everyone else, but holier than thou about it.  These are the same people who drove Nader to run in 2000 and who will cost us another election.


by Javier Doval on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:45:42 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I have no tolerance for these comments.  Here we are attempting to unify the Party, and someone has to divide us along the lines of race.  Please delete your comment, Javier, for it frankly contributes nothing to the debate or to the progressive movement.


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

You're attempting to unify the party?!??!?! I've read your stuff...you are doing nothing of the sort.


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:01:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Yes you are really after unity hence your tagline!

Give me a break!


Slash and burn politics baby! Say anything do anything lie cheat steal railroad the opposition into submission: CLINTON FORMULA FOR 2008.
by crackityjones on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:06:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

WHAT? (none / 0)

"same people who drove Nader to run in 2000 "

Worst comment Ever.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:55:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not racist but... (none / 0)

Whatever. It's Mr. Armstrong's site so he can do whatever he wants.

Anyway...

It's not racist to consider whether Obama's race will have an impact. Indeed, a good many black folks are focused on this question.  Many African-Americans would love to vote for Obama, but fear he can't win, because of his race--inclined to support him, but fearful that it just can't happen.

But, here on this site, most people who make the  "he can't win b/c he's black" argument are typically opposed to Obama on other grounds.

In that sense, they have an incentive to convince people that a black man can't win--an incentive to promote racial fear, whether they buy the argument or not. It's an available argument, so why not use it right?

You know, I don't think Ronald Regan was necessarily a racist either. But he was fully willing to play on (white) racial fear and exploit racism for political ends. You don't need to be a racist to do that.  

So I detect no racism here, just a willingness to exploit racial fear.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:01:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not racist but... (none / 0)

I don't know how one could exploit racial fears w/o being a racist oneself.  Reagan ran essentially as a father/grandfather figure, and that appealed to a majority of the electorate at that time.  Parents don't necessarily exploit fears in their children, but they do ask questions of them, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?", etc.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:19:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

et tu naderite? (none / 0)


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nader drove himself to run (none / 0)

out of petty spite and he got thousands of people to drink his particular brand of kool-aide. That doesn't mean he was right about anything.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:31:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

I am a little confused as to lumping Edwards with Clinton.
The Edwards' positions have been first in most cases and certainly the clearest. What are HRC's positions?

I believe Edwards will be the greater force...
An Edwards/Obama ticket would sweep and transform America..and in 8 years?


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:47:58 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (1.50 / 2)

I'm amazed that anyone trusts Edwards. He voted for the war. He voted for the bankruptcy legislation. He was either compromising his principles then, or he is a liar now. Obama, by comparison, is a paragon of virtue and consistency.


by nerdoff on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

if it came down to Edwards or Obama.

Edwards without question.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nice fantasy (none / 0)

no one and nothing is going to "sweep and transform America".  Where do people get this crazy rhetoric?
Politics is not and never will be that easy.  

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

my take (2.00 / 1)

He's not black, he's simply too green.

and....he has some very anti-middle class economic positions, that too.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:50:20 PM EST

Re: my take (none / 0)

somebody green wouldn't have known to use the novak story to send the media on a goose chase in order to take focus off of his drivers license goof at the debate.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:05:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I do believe, however, That if not Edwards, an Obama candidacy, even if racist America did not elect him, would bring about serious Dem majorities in Senate and House. HRC simple won't do this.


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:51:43 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

that makes zero sense.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

jeesh (none / 0)

actually HC is the ONLY candidate who will bring this about.  She will bring millions of new voters to the polls who are women.  When women vote democrats win, that is a simple fact.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: jeesh (none / 0)

"millions of new voters to the polls" is right... Clinton hating republican voters. Dems would lose seats with Hillary on the ticket.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: jeesh (none / 0)

You really think there are that many "Clinton haters" who are so uninterested in politics that they don't vote?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:56:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: jeesh (none / 0)

I would call them depressed republicans who will only vote if they can vote against a Clinton. Yes, there are that many....especially when the rw noise machine starts cranking out the "oldies but goodies" from the Clinton years.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:41:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: jeesh (none / 0)

You may be right, but that doesn't have anything to do with bringing "new voters" to the polls.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

didn't this happen in o4? didn't we make gains elsewhere even though kerry didn't win? i forget what it was. governorships, house seats, something like that.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:30:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

What you identify as Obama's greatest problem is his greatest strength...  The fact is, the right and the media just can't seem to get a solid hit off of him.    Every attack just glances off.  He hasn't had to attack the right wing noise machine, because he hasn't NEEDED to attack it directly, and he most likely never will.  The right has tries to smear him, but they slide off of him like teflon.. actually, that's not even the operative phrase... they never get a direct hit on him, just glancing blows... He has a special way about him that allows him to dodge bullets with impunity.

Thanks,

Mike


by lordmikethegreat on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:55:46 PM EST

ninja Obama! (none / 0)


by souvarine on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:01:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ninja Obama! (none / 0)

the boy is on script!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I think what you're missing is that this teflon effect doesn't happen by accident.  It's part and parcel of the fact that the media loves him.

If the media were to treat Obama the same way they treat Edwards, including a gratuitous haircut reference in every story, he certainly wouldn't look teflon then.  And God forbid they should savage him the way they've savaged Hillary for years.

The reason negative narratives haven't taken hold regarding Obama has nothing to do with magic powers he possesses, and everything to do with the media choosing not to recite those narratives.  This is great, unless and until the Republicans cow the media into ending the honeymoon.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Fox News and the right wing noise machine have not gone easy on Obama...  they've been smearing him continuously form the start, and yet, even the rabid right wing base isn't being motivated by the attacks....

The media likes him, yes... but, attacks against him have been useless up to this point...

Thanks,

Mike


by lordmikethegreat on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And they will (none / 0)

"This is great, unless and until the Republicans cow the media into ending the honeymoon."

Unless the GOP nominate ? who? I mean they slimed Gore about his being "wooden" and "inventing the Internet" against whack-job Bush! And then Kerry?

I just thank god that Giuliani is sinking. The idea of him in the White House is terrifying.


by Coral on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

steve - this hsntt even BEGUN yet.

IF he became the nominee they actully will start talking about Rezko, the chicago machine, his family etc.

say that then, sure as hell not now.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the media doesn't love him (none / 0)

this is just a game they are playing right now, it is called "Horse Race".


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I agree with you, to a point, but there IS some skill involved with manipulating the media and deflecting attacks.  Reagan was masterful at that and so was Bill, if in different ways.  The former, of course, got the media to eat out of his hand and they never really turned on him.  The latter was able to convince the country to largely ignore the media's hit jobs.  

I concede Obama hasn't been tested enough to know exactly how he'll handle the nasty smears that are coming.  But he is, without a doubt, a very talented politician.  I think he may well prove to be in Clinton's leage at deflecting criticism.  Certainly, this relatively tough primary will prove helpful to his campaign if he does win the nomination.  And likewise for Hillary, who in her own right hasn't really faced the GOP's smear machine as a candidate.  


by HSTruman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

obama got hurt with his drivers license fumble, but he put out another story the day after to avoid it being the focus for the week. i forget what it was though.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:33:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

i think i remember now. didn't obama use the bob novak story to send the media off on a goose chase sniffing for dirt in order to take focus off of his drivers license flub?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:09:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Worst line of your story (none / 0)

"But there's been more and more of a dissonance growing between Obama's campaign and among progressive partisan Democrats"

Ha!!!!!!!!!! In your dreams.

His poll numbers are creeping up in all states...evidence doesn't seem to support this notion.

Your quibbles with Obama ("He's built up a cult of personality!") demonstrate that you haven't learned anything from 2000 and 2004.

Sadly, personality is everything in elections. That's why John Edwards and Barack Obama are strong general election candidates (with weaknesses, yes, but still strong), while Hillary Clinton will have major problems connecting with people.

Charisma and personality are what drive voters to ignore negative messenging and accept positive messenging. They are the cornerstones of successful political campaigns.


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:56:15 PM EST

Re: Worst line of your story (none / 0)

Yeah, there is more and more distance b/w Obama and some fringe elements of the netroots.

That's a good thing in my book. These people aren't the arbiters of what goes for progressivism.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Worst line of your story (none / 0)

So, Barrack is a dude you'd want to have a beer with then?

You make a good point but I submit that this focus on personality and 'character' is what's truly wrong with the political process and....

The voters are slowly realizing this.

We will see if they buy what Obama is selling.

I'm not.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Worst line of your story (none / 0)

You know its spelled Barack, not Barrack...that's the way wingers spell it.


by danIA on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Does Obama know that he has a general problem? (2.00 / 1)

That is what I wonder.  I have met a lot of very smart people in my life.  A few of them are the type that know that they are smart, and think they are smarter than they are.  They tend to over rely on their ability and it gets them in trouble.

I worry Obama might be one of these.  That he might think is so intelligent that he can get by or get around a problem with just its wits.  That he can talk his way out of it (or give a good speech).  He shows some signs of having this type of ego:

1) He appears thin skinned.  Novak and Krugman didn't do much to get way under his skin and to illicit a response that wasn't proportional to the percieved threat.

2) He doesn't take personal responsibility for mistakes.  He consistantly blames low level staffers when this blow up publically.

3) He appears leary to let us learn too much about him.  I have a real problem with the reasonsing that he gives for changing the names of friends and associates in his book.

Add to this that Obama has never been tested.  He has never ran a race where his opponent has taken it to him and knocked him down, forcing him to get off the mat.  You know that in a general that will happen.  Kerry got sent to the mat with the 'Swiftboats' and he got up, but he was slow to get up and it cost him.  Kerry was a veteran campaigner that had been in some tight spots previously.  Obama has no such experience to draw on.

Furthermore, what Democratic voters need to understand is that to win the general election you have to do more than make some movie star, or U of I prof, or some liberal activist in NH feel good.  You have to convince middle America, unaffiliated voters, who make will make a snap judgement in the final week, that you are the best person to defend them economically, militarily, etc.  

These voters are not going to stare starry eyed at Obama, gushing about a some mythical movement that no one else can see, as they listen to a long speech.

I do think it is important to point out that a liberal has not won the White House for a long time.  I believe that the conservative movement hit its apex at the moment of the Terri Schaivo incident is receding, and will die a slow death.  That being said we are not far removed from that apex, and the conservative movement is still strong.  Many Americans still identify with it to some degree or another, and I don't think are ready to elect a liberal President yet (I said yet).   You make a great point about winning, and fighting.

Lets now throw this election away.  We can build our majorities in the House and Senate AND we can elect a Democratic President who will sign their laws, end the war in Iraq, and appoint the right judges to the Supreme Court.  We need to go with with strength and experience, and someone who knows how to win in a general election.  That is not Obama.

Last note: I don't think the dicussion of race is off the table, nor is gender, or religion or anything else.  Anything the Republicans will use against us has to be thought about and discussed.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:57:44 PM EST

Re: Does Obama know that he has a general problem? (none / 0)

2) He doesn't take personal responsibility for mistakes.  He consistantly blames low level staffers when this blow up publically.

obama took responsibility for rezko. admitted it was a mistake. donated the money to charity.

Kerry got sent to the mat with the 'Swiftboats' and he got up, but he was slow to get up and it cost him.  Kerry was a veteran campaigner that had been in some tight spots previously

kerry was swiftboated before on a state level. he responded quickly to it. no excuse as to why he didn't do the same as a nominee.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:45:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Obama know that he has a general problem? (none / 0)

i'd contest your other points, but i've already made them elsewhere on this thread and i don't want to be repetitive.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 2)

Jerome, good, thoughtful post. But I'm not sure I'm sold.

If Obama gets nominated, what are you supposing the partisan base is going to do? Sit at home and let Rudy/Romney/Huck win?

IMO, no Republican and their campaign is anywhere near as formidable or experienced as the Clinton Camp. This fear of the Republican noise machine is irrational, being as 2006 showed us their tactics have worn thin and they don't play with the American voter.

IMO, Sen. Obama's transformational politics has less to do with making nice with Republicans than putting the ideological debates  of 1968 in the dustbin of history, something that I do believe will have great resonance in a general.

Lastly, I don't see how anything Sen. Obama has done seals his fate in a manner more damning than Sen. Edwards' decision to accept public funding. At least Sen. Obama will be able to hit back against the Republicans in the general.


by Benstrader on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:58:19 PM EST

Its not the solid Democrats that will do him in (none / 0)

It is the old Reagan Democrats, indys, and soft Republicans that otherwise have had enough of their party, at least for a while.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:01:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its not the solid Democrats that will do him i (none / 0)

That makes sense, though Obama does quite well among Indies and Repubs, at least now.

But by my reading, the post says the exact opposite, that he'll be undone by the partisan base which doesn't trust him.


by Benstrader on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its not the solid Democrats that will do him i (none / 0)

I think Jerome is referring to both. The Republican leaning indies who support Obama will turn away and the partisan base he has alienated won't fight as hard for him.


by souvarine on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it would be so easy with "reagan dems" (none / 0)

the man wants to BAN making guns
the man wants to BAN owning guns
hes against the death penalty
he wants to let crackheads out of jail
he wants to let illegal aliens on your roads
he wants to raise your taxes by ONE TRILLION DOLLARS
he was college professor
he was/is a HARVARD lawyer
hes the chicago Daley machine
Rezko!
he goes to  church who's rector hates whites
his brothers are both in the nation of islam
his grandma has no elect or water-and hes okw/that
his middle name is hussein
his last name is obama
he doesnt LOOK like you
he is a liberal democrat
Young Hollywood likes him
will smith says hes gonna be the NEXT black Prez
how can he understand YOUR lives?
he says hes experienced enough for the WH because he lived in indonesia when he was 6
who IS his guy?

---

people - this is just stuff i made up in 2 minutes. this IS the kind of stuff they will say.

Have you ever sen the stuff that comes out of RNC fax machines?

They would love you to pick him.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its not the solid Democrats that will do him i (none / 0)

the republican leaning indies will not turn back to the right. they are just as sick of the war as everybody else, and the right  promises only more of the same.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:51:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

What I admire about Obama and his campaign is their learning curve.  Oftentimes, a novice on a national stage repeats the same mistakes and they become a narrative.  Obama keeps learning and adjusting.  Are they on Clinton's level?  Perhaps not, but she and Bill have been through it.  But do you think Edwards' campaign is superior to Obama's even though this is JRE's second run?  

One prime example is Oprahpalooza.  It was a media extravaganza, but also a sublime recruitment vehicle that was managed as well as any operation.  Think about this - did you hear of a single organizational problem?  All I could think of was, this guy would have saved the people in New Orleans.  And that is what I want in a president.


by Javier Doval on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

cspan screwed up the audio. i was pissed.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:56:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe it's because I'm older (none / 0)

but this talk about putting the ideological debates of the 1960s really annoys me. We are still having the ideological debates of the late 18th and early 19th century -- about the social agenda! In America we are still policies enacted or proposed by FDR.

You can't throw these issues into the dustbin. For one thing, the GOP won't let you do it. Look at the Bush attempt to undermine Social Security!

The environment is an issue that became prominent in the 60s and 70s. Where are we now? With the GOP firmly fighting any attempt to enact a rational energy policy.

I could go on and on, but, really, someone could write a book about this topic.


by Coral on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

This politico article just shows Obama has as much conviction as any other typical politician.

He has masterfully hoodwinked a lot of people , including a some of his worshippers on this blog that he his the second coming of Jesus Christ.

You have to give credit to a politician that can actually do that .

All his claims about courage of convictions , no poll testing positions , triangulating etc. has always been a facade to me.

Don't get me wrong I like Obama and I give him kudos for haven been able to pull it off with his supporters up till this point.

I have never thought Obama was not a liberal , infact I have said it numerous time that I see him as a pragmatic progressive but with a less firm ideological base of Hillary Clinton , that is why I can support him because he would probably end up governing from the middle.

The issue I have always raised is that he is just a typical politician like any other politician but has a special gift to make people think otherwise.

This article just shows him to be another politician , if you compare with he said then to now.

Someone should tell Obama to stop blaming everything on your staff.
 


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:59:17 PM EST

blaming the staff (none / 0)

You mean like Hillary did with the "Obama is a Muslim" chain email? Damm staff!


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

volunteers (none / 0)

as much staff as you are


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: volunteers (none / 0)

Sooooo....it's ok to throw volunteers under the bus?  I thought candidate's are personally responsible for everything done by their campaign.

See Jerome's update...NO excuses.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: volunteers (none / 0)

if obama was held responsible for some of the stuff his cult write on the blogs -

please

he'd be living under an assumed name in the sudan or somewhere.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:16:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Oh and one more thing -

IF Obama wins the primary, then he probably has "partisan Democrats" all lined up behind him, right? And your criticism will be silly! Or do primaries not count? Is the only thing that matters the opinion of elite bloggers with hidden agendas?


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:59:38 PM EST

oooh more conspircy stuff! (none / 0)

oooh hidden agendas!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

I am amazed at how many people miss the boat on Obama.  Have you not seen that he is the best counter-puncher the Democrats have had in a very long time?  What happened to Hillary's abortion attacks last week?  What happened to Bill's Iraq attacks a couple months ago?  In both cases the campaign already had material that countered the attacks in the hands of the media before the attacks were even made.

Obama will do just fine against the Republicans.  And how quickly we forget how pathetic the "experienced" Kerry was in dealing with Republican attacks.  


by Fitzy2 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:04:25 PM EST

Re: Inside the MYDD bubble (2.00 / 2)

Jerome,

I started out reading this post thinking, "wow, Jerome is actually being sort of reasonable and just explaining his concerns in a helpful sort of way..."

Then you started doing what you usually do:  distorting and cherrypicking to make Obama look bad, or weak, or unelectable.

It is ironic that after months of you and other JE supporters harping about how Obama is insufficiently progressive, you choose an article that is all about how Obama is an unrepentent liberal.  Rather than being reassured by the article that Obama really is a progressive, you are now trying to turn this into an electability issue.  I gotta give you credit, you are consistent:  you criticize Obama no matter what he does or says.

The meme that Obama has not been tested is bull.  Team Hillary has some of the toughest, meanest oppo folks in the business.  They have been testing him for months.  I strongly suspect that Team Hillary has been dropping little planted media stories all year.  They have had paid bloggers spinning for months.  IMO, Obama has shown that he can take a punch and that he is an excellent counter-puncher.  

With regard to vulnerability to attacks, your post fails to mention what I think is most important:  what determines if an attack will stick is whether or not it fits in with pre-existing doubts in the minds of the voters.  Obama is less vulnerable because he is far more authentic than Gore, or Kerry, or HRC.  Obama's personna is honest, ethical, and caring.  This makes him a much smaller target than HRC for intance.

Edwards problem is that his political message is somewhat incongruent with his past positions and votes.  This makes him vulnerable to flip-flop attacks.  The mansion, the haircut, and the hedge fund attacks stuck, in part, because they fit in with voter doubts about Edwards past as a wealthy trial attorney.

I think Obama is perfectly capable of taking care of himself.  If you don't want to see him seperated from the liberal base of the party, then quit attacking him and distorting his record.  The reason there is seperation is because people like you have been trying your damnedest for months to tell us that Obama is not a progressive.

Try getting out of the MyDD bubble once and awhile.  In my conversations with a wide variety of people.  They consistently say that they like Obama with comments about how honest and sincere he seems.  You suspect you travel is a highly cynical crowd.


by upper left on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:04:42 PM EST

Re: Inside the MYDD bubble (none / 0)

Do you have any evidence for the many claims you make?  And why are you always i$$uing talking points from the Obama campaign?


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Inside the MYDD bubble (none / 0)

1) Read the full article that Jerome cherry-picked.

2) Look at the polls.

3) Look at the media coverage.

4) Look at the Intrade numbers linked at RCP.  This morning Edwards was trading at 4.9, meaning he is considered to have less than a 5% chance of winning the nomination.  Obama was trading at 34%, meaning the collective wisdom is that Obama has a seven times greater chance of winning the nomination.

5)  I am not affiliated with the campaign in any way.  I did speak at an Obama fundraiser back in the spring but have no formal position as a staffer or even as a volunteer.


by upper left on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In MY converstions with UNION people (none / 0)

its always Hillary or Edwards

Obama never even is considered.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In MY converstions with UNION people (none / 0)

...in my head.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In MY converstions with UNION people (none / 0)

Try checking out the poll trends at RCP or at Pollster.  Try Googling Obamas name and see how many articles have been published about him in the last 24 hours vs. JE.  

Obama clearly has the momentum across the board.  If union folks are not discussing it now, perhaps they should start, after all, Obama has a 94% lifetime voting record from the AFL-CIO.


by upper left on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

100% agree, Jerome, and one other point... (none / 0)

...is it will be easy for the Republicans to paint Obama as young and inexperienced.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:12:45 PM EST

Roger Simon made an interesting point (none / 0)

Last week while on 'Hardball', Matthews was interviewing Roger Simon of the 'Politico', a pretty good veteran reporter that has been around.  

Matthews basically laid out the strategy that Obama and his supporters hope for.  Chris was in effect making it sound inevitable.   Obama wins Iowa, gets the mo and wins New Hampshire and them rolls through SC and Clinton is done.

Simon made an interesting observation that I think caught Chris off guard, as it ran contrary to the line of conservation he was trying to push.  Simon basically said, or Obama wins Iowa or New Hampshire, gets peoples attention, and Democrats in other states step back and ask, okay can he win the general, is he the right candidate.

Obama may be doing well enough in the polling now, and getting enough new media buzz, that some people are already starting to ask that question, as we see with the Politico piece.

I think Democrats who want to win are smart to ask it sooner than later.  


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:13:35 PM EST

Re: Roger Simon made an interesting point (2.00 / 2)

Well, what you're describing is sort of Howard Dean all over again, right?  At some point the Democratic share of the electorate is going to have that moment of reckoning.

In 2004 we made the "safe" choice and it didn't work out all that great.  This year, I think there's an element of risk in nominating any one of our candidates.  I personally think Edwards is the safest bet but I'm certainly not prepared to guarantee that the country is ready for his progressive platform, although I'd like to find out.

I wasn't a Deaniac in 2004, but I regret we didn't nominate him because, win or lose, we would have found out something about what the country is ready for.  When Democrats constantly practice a cautious, incremental brand of politics we never really settle the issue of what a clearer message could do.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'04 wasn't the safe choice, it was the best choice (2.00 / 1)

Kerry didn't run the best campaign.  He didn't win.  But he could have.  He came closer than any challenger in a time of war in over 50 years.  If not for just a couple of bad moves he would have run despite his uneven campaign.

Democrats have a habit of beating their losers up and them forgiving them down the road.  Gore got beat up for a couple of years too.   Now everybody loves him.

Kerry was the best we had.  Solid resume, the most Presidential, military service, smart with a good grasp of the issues, good debater, etc.  


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: '04 wasn't the safe choice, it was the best ch (none / 0)

The disappointment with Kerry's defeat is that he did it to himself. He refused to take the fight to Bush on the many areas that Bush was vulnerable.

Iraq...a disaster.

Personal honesty....Bush=Liar was already a Google fact.

Personal integrety....the AWOL issue.

Fiscal responsibility....big tax cuts for the rich swamping the Treasury with red ink.

Kerry refused to attack on any of these at the advice of his DLS, centrist advisors. The same losers who are scattered through Hillary's and Obama's campaigns. Giving the same lousy loser advice.

Kerry was not the best we had. That was Dean which is why the corporatist press took him down.

Now the situation in inverted the corporatist media are pumping Obama for all he's worth....

Until the day after he wins the primary, if he does, whereupon he will  be a madras attending uppity black guy with no experience.

In other words toast.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:05:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: '04 wasn't the safe choice, it was the best ch (none / 0)

My disappointment with Kerry is not about his personal qualities but about the uninspiring campaign he ran.  It was like, he would do his best to articulate some mainstream Democratic idea, the Republicans would mock him for it, and then... nothing.  John Kerry is a good man, but I don't want to ever see another campaign like that one.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Beating Hillary is the tough part. Once that is accomplished, beating the GOP will be easy. The pendulum has already begun to swing--the GOP has worn out its welcome in the Oval Office.


by aiko on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:18:02 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

That is so wrong and why Obamites must be defeated.

They dont have a clue about winning elections.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

maybe those questions get asked but what's the answer an unlikebale Hillary that is viewed as dishonest by most of the country? In addition she just would hav ebeen found to be too polarizing for democrats in iowa and NH, it will be Hillary that can't win the general.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:19:39 PM EST

Elise, (none / 0)

the utterly predictable Obama troll at Daily Kos, would respond as follows:

Let me get this straight - (0.00 / 0)
You posted complete LIES with no evidence. Digby linked your post with complete LIES with no evidence - so now you'll pat her back and link to her - where she just makes shit up about Obama too?
You know - credibility is paramount - and if you guys want to claim that bloggers are journalists and that you all have ethics and credibility - then you'll have to actually STOP acting like mainstream full of shit journalists and start backing up what you say.

You said that you heard from "sources" that Obama's campaign was doing oppo research - NAME THEM or don't make the accusation.

You linked to Jerome - who clearly hates Obama - who has dropped in credibility with every single article he's posted this year - and who just recently smeared Oprah and Obama with completely fabricated LIES. No one has yet to make an attempt to prove the claim from that story.

Let's get down to the facts here Chris - if you're able.

Seriously - at this point I don't know why any of you have any credibility LEFT at all. I don't read MyDD anymore at all - shall I stop coming here too? That's what I do when journalists and bloggers make it clear to me that they have no interest in facts - I stop reading.

by: Elise @ Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 22:20:44 PM CST

Look in the mirror. (0.00 / 0)
Your comments here are ugly. Why the need to smear? Don't have anything positive to say about your own chosen candidate?
The fact is - several bloggers have smeared Obama - without PROOF. They have smeared Oprah - without PROOF. When you have no proof, you are not credible - and no one is listening.

by: Elise @ Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 18:47:12 PM CST
[ Parent ]

You've proven one thing with this comment... (0.00 / 0)
that you don't know a single thing about Obama.
So, how about you go to his website and read his policy proposals and read about his past accomplishments in the State Senate and as an organizer. Then you can come back and withdraw your assertion that he's not progressive.

He's THE most progressive candidate we have. Period. He has NEVER changed his position on any issue to become "more" progressive - unlike Kucinich, Hillary, and Edwards.

by: Elise @ Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:23:39 AM CST
[ Parent ]

Expect iterations of the above from Obama supporters whenever Bowers writes an article.  All of them have read the memo, and all of them will repeat it online.  Welcomoe to the age of simulated activism.


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:21:48 PM EST

Re: Elise, (none / 0)

Do you really want to argue that all of a candidate's supporters online are somehow representative of the candidate?  B/c the Clinton folks are probably the worst of the bunch.  ALL of the candidates have supporters that say ridiculous things my friend -- including, but not limited to Obama.

As far as Bower's post goes, Chris made a mistake that he's since corrected.  Which, as far as I'm concerned, is fine.  I think Chris fundamentally misunderstands who Obama is, but reasonable people can and do differ on the candidates they prefer.  A lesson that ALL of us would be wise to remember, since -- as Jerome noted previously -- we'll all be on the same team in 4-6 weeks.


by HSTruman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Elise, (none / 0)

Why not make that argument? It's done all the time when we discuss the Republicans.

Are the rules of human nature now to be repealed simply because what the noted Obama supporter Elise has to say is viewed as 'trollish'.

No, I don't think Obama should be given a pass on what his supporters say just as I don't thing Huckabee should be or Edwards.

Or anyone else.

After all didn't Jesus say: 'Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.'

Oh...that's right. Obama ain't really a preacher he just likes to pretend he's like MLK was. In his dreams.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I completely agree (none / 0)

no Hillary they will simply go after her for being a corrupt "bitch". but my comments are not sexist because i'm just pointing out what Republicans will say about her.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:22:08 PM EST

Re: I completely agree (none / 0)

Your comments are sexist because you're using the word yourself.  And 10% of the Hillary who vote for Hillary will actually still hate, but they just hate the other guy more!  GE's are about two people, not one.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I completely agree (none / 0)

Don't forget that the GOP also claims she is a lesbian and that is why she did not care about Monica.  And the GOP is going to have a field day with the Bill and black women story.  Did any of them get pregnant, and if so, is Bill another Strom Thurmond?


by Javier Doval on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:45:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I completely agree (none / 0)

yeah they will

and women who have NEVER voted before will come out in droves just because of this.

That has ALWAYS been the plan.

Its her special, secret weapon.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

Jerome,

Thanks for this post.  It's good to hear where you're coming from.  Ultimately, I think that Obama's campaign is incapable of leading a successful progressive partisan movement while using his unique characteristics to expand our coalition.  

Time will tell whether that's wishful thinking on my part or not.  Regardless, I don't see Obama's "weaknesses" as any more glaring than Clinton's or Edwards'.  Accordingly, I'm more than willing to give Obama a chance to really change the entire national dynamic.  Even if he fails, I think he has just as good a chance of at least winning the WH as Clinton or Edwards.  

At any rate, good to understand your thinking and I hope you'll still be willing to support Obama if he wins the nomination.  As you correctly note, he'll need all the help he can get once he has to face off against the GOP smear machine.


by HSTruman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:22:09 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Previous post should read:  "Ultimately, I think that Obama's campaign is CAPABLE..."  


by HSTruman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

Obama was for DOMA IN 2003 now he is against it .

- In his Illinois campaign for a Senate seat, candidate Barack Obama said in a questionnaire he was against the repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act. In 2008, Sen. Obama, now running for president, said he is for a repeal.
Advertisement

Obama filled out the questionnaire, dated Dec. 15, 2003, for the Independent Voters of Illinois-Independent Precinct Organization

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn 4155/is_20070606/ai_n19203493

And he wrote that he favors normalized relations with Cuba, which he came out against in the Black and Brown Forum a couple of weeks ago.

Politics of conviction , yeah right.

Sooner or Later , his inconsistencies and facade would catch up with him.

From the Iran vote , to ducking of votes , to present votes , to mudslinging , the list goes on.

Say something in public , do something else under the radar.

I have wondered how he got away with it for so long.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:22:37 PM EST

The mailers are being printed (none / 0)

The stamps being licked.

I suspect there will be a lot of people in Iowa and New Hampshire getting mail from the Edwards and Clinton campaigns highlighting some of these new found facts.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:26:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The mailers are being printed (none / 0)

we see how well it worked when Hillary went negative last week, bring it on.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

Others candidates I am sure will want to draw distinctions.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

These issues would probably come out in the debate in Iowa.

Its bad timing for Obama .


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

yeah those issues showing Obama is in fact A DEMOCRAT  and a black one too .....Hillary is now usuing right wing talking points on domestic issues just like on the iraq war, no wonder she's viewed as unlikeable and dishonest, because she is unlikeable and dishonest.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

It is his inconsistencies that have caught up with him in this politico article .

I hope that shows up at the debate.

The views are the least of his problems , it is the fact that his claim of convictions , poll testing , new kind of politics has always been deceptive at at the least.

He is just like any other typical politician and if that can just sip into the voters consciousness , he would be in trouble.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

I don't always agree with you, but I respect your views.  Seriously, help me understand how any of the info cited in the POLITICO article is an inconsistency?  

* Death Penalty -- 10 years ago, he said he didn't support it.  Now, he says he supports it in theory in VERY selective circumstances and thinks that as it's currently administered it doesn't work.  One, his current position is significantly more progressive than Edwards or Clinton.  Two, the practice v theory distinction is the legal frame through which legal scholars often attack the death penalty.  Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but this "change" isn't troubling at all to me

* Abortion -- I don't see any retreat from his statement that he doesn't support limits on abortion.  Not something Democrats usually say bluntly, but I give him credit for that.

* Gun Control -- No substantive change.  He's more careful about how he talks about the issue now, but his views are exactly the same.  

If you've got a particular example that matters, please cite it.  Otherwise, the only difference I see is an unexpectedly more careful articulation of his views today, since he's now on the national stage.  In fact, if this is the worst of Obama's "inconsistencies," then I think he qualifies as the most consistent candidate by far.  

Anyway, not expecting to change your mind about Obama, but this particular argument just really doesn't make much sense to me.  


by HSTruman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

We should remember that Illinois ultimately ended up having to declare a moratorium on the death penalty because they kept finding innocent people on death row.  So I think Obama is actually going to look very prescient on that issue.

None of these issues seem to have a huge amount of salience to me... except guns.  That unambiguous answer will be a big deal and he's going to have to do a lot better than nuance it a tiny bit.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

Probably true about guns, although I would note that that's a problem Edwards and Clinton share.  They've each supported gun control pretty strongly in the past.  


by HSTruman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

Edwards will be okay on guns.  His position is pretty nuanced and he has the Southern rural credentials to build credibility with gun owners.

"It's very important for us as Democrats to understand that where I come from guns are about a lot more than guns themselves," said John Edwards. "They are about independence. For a lot of people who work hard for a living, one of the few things they feel they have any control over is whether they can buy a gun and hunt. They don't want people messing with that, which I understand."

Hillary will probably have a trickier time simply because her husband was not exactly beloved on this issue, and it's going to be held against her to some extent.

I think most Democrats understand the need to steer clear of the gun issue at the federal level, but that doesn't mean it won't be demagogued just like every other year.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt it will just be Hillary (none / 0)

It's funny to me that Edwards gets a pass b/c of his accent, but again I think you're right on the politics involved.  Whoever the nominee is, I hope they do a better job of diffusing the issue than Kerry.  I still like the guy, but if he would have handled the gun issue better I think he probably would have won WV, at the very least.

Ultimately, I think the Democratic position ought to be pretty similar no matter who the nominee is:  (1) I will strongly defend the Second Amendment, which guarantees an individual right to bear arms; and (2) Think that individual states should be entitled to pass reasonable, but not excessive, limitations on gun possession so as to protect police officers and preclude felons and the mentally infirm from possessing dangerous weapons.    


by HSTruman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I completely agree (none / 0)

She has negatives in the 50's and cannot win.


by BDM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:33:51 PM EST

Re: I completely agree (none / 0)

CBS polling said that ONLY 36% of voters say they would NEVER vote for Hillary.

Thats all that matters.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm an Obama supporter & agree w/Jerome... (2.00 / 1)

...on his concerns.  I've given Obama money and I'm firmly convinced he would be a transformational President.

But I'm concerned, and always have been, about his ability to get elected.  And, yes, PARTLY because he's black and has a funny name...those are still real obstacles.  Of course he can't control that, but he has to overcome it with a great campaign.  And I can see the problems Jerome outlined as being potentially real ones.

Now there's a strong counterargument that ultimately partisans will unite behind him, just as we united behind John Kerry no matter how strongly many liberals wanted someone else up until Kerry became the presumptive nominee.  And if that happens--it just might--then Jerome's, and my, concerns will have been empty ones.


by DCCyclone on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:36:04 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 5)

If Obama's too centrist, I can't support him because he's not on our side.
If Obama's too liberal, I can't support him because he's unelectable.

If Obama's too black, racist America won't vote for him.
If Obama's not black enough, minorities won't trust him.

If Obama's too aggressive in fighting Bin Laden, he's pro-war.
If Obama's not aggressive enough, he's a weak dove.

If Obama wants to continue the war in Afghanistan, he's pro-war and somehow pro-Iraq.
If Obama wants to end the war in Iraq, he's pro-terrorist.

If Obama's defends his policy proposals, he's a slanderer.
If Obama doesn't defend himself, he's too weak to even take on liberal columnists.

If Obama handles the media well, he's unprepared.
If Obama handles the media poorly, he's unelectable.

If Obama falls behind in the polls, he's a loser.
If Obama leads in the polls, he's going to crash.

If Obama helps build the party with his PAC, it's unethical.
If Obama doesn't help build the party, he's selfish.

If Obama creates a party-centered campaign, he's unprepared and unelectable.
If Obama creates a candidate-centered campaign, he's a cult leader.

We get it. Obama's loses no matter what he does.


by Kal on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:40:26 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

You're funny!


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Kal it must mean alot of people who have ruined our party for years are scared shitless right now. Look at the garbadge they have been reduced to, dumping oppo research to rightwing internet sights! claiming that Obama is too liberal at the same time he is too bi-partison. Glad to see these people aren't aboard they are not worth having.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Yeah...

Oh!

Looky!

Obama leaks oppo on how Edwards closed the Whirlpool plant in IA!

Unions turn on Edwards!

Er....no they didn't.

Damn those rambunctious staffers anyway!


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Sucks being under the microscope, doesn't it? It will only get worse if Obama does better.


by souvarine on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

yeah it will especially when he is president and Hillary leaves politics in disgrace.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where will the partisans be next year? (2.00 / 2)

Jerome,

So, if Obama is our guy and Edwards is not, where will we be next year? We're obviously not going to sit it out and we're sure as hell going to fight like hell!

Obama was one of the first netroots candidates! We made him. He is one of us even if he pretends not to be. Unlike Kerry, Obama won't be foisted upon activists. We are genuinely inspired by the guy and the hope for the future he offers (in terms of race and national unity). It may simply be that 2008 is the year that we must engage in the campaign to take the nation forward in those terms. If so, then so be it. We'll all be there and for once we won't be supporting a guy because he isn't the GOP's guy, but because we see something wonderful in him.


by Dmitri in San Diego on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:54:21 PM EST

Compromise Agent (none / 0)

Excellent post Jerome! I do not believe the nation will transcend partisan politics in 2008. I want a partisan in the White House. As polls have shown, most of America does to. You point out the problems I have with Barry. He's not a partisan. I shutter to think what type of back room deals he will make to sell out the party. You see, the problem with Barry is that he's a "Compromise Agent" and we have no room for that in our Party. I suspect Barry will come to the table ready to compromise every DEM ideal and stance in order to make the deal and make him look good. This is what it is about for Barry.  I've said this before; we (DEMS) need a fighter in the White House.  We need a "Partisan". Someone who will fight for our (DEM) ideals first, then compromise. There is a difference. I just wish the Barry supporters would think about what you put forth in your post.  I don't have a problem with Barry governing from the middle, but I want him to fight.  Fight for us (DEMS).  Identify with our side; DEM ideals. I just don't see or feel it happening from Obama.


by lonnette33 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:59:50 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

Very interesting post.  This is a nice companion piece to Bowers' musings yesterday on OpenLeft.

I think Obama has the personal qualities to win with the campaign he is running.  His appeal and his ability to inspire and communicate make him unique among this generation.  The appeal is similar to that of JFK in 1960, who also ran what could have been considered a non-partisan campaign based on broad notions of idealism.  More recently, Ronald Reagan was able to ride personality to the White House in the 1980's, and was able to enact right-wing policies despite a Democratic Congress.

That is not to say Obama won't have a movement at his back.  I don't view this as a zero-sum equation.  I highly doubt the partisan-democrat crowd is going to sit idly by in 2008.

Yglesias has a great take on this issue:
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/a rchives/2007/12/the_trick.php

It'd be great to see a back and forth on this issue.  I'm very curious to see how it all plays out.


"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy
by dmfox on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:01:17 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

Consider the far different time in which JFK ran, though.  Eisenhower had governed for two terms as an exceedingly moderate Republican, explicitly rejecting his party's former agenda of rolling back Social Security and the New Deal.  There was no need for JFK to differentiate himself sharply from the right-wing Republican agenda because there was no such Republican agenda at the time.

In contrast to Eisenhower, we're now coming off of two terms of one of the most right-wing and ineffective Presidents in our history.  Now is the time, in my view, to make the case that the right-wing agenda simply isn't right for America.  Just as Reagan made political hay by campaigning against the excesses of 70s-style liberalism, we can make great gains for the progressive agenda by making this about partisanship and showing the clear distinctions between Democrats and the Bush Republicans.

This may be a once-in-a-lifetime chance to alter the paradigm.  That's why the prospect of missing the opportunity by focusing on bipartisanship and compromise concerns me so.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

Brilliant post. What is exactly Obama's base? This is a guy who has managed to achieve high political standing without ever having to resort to a partisan knife fight.  I'm knocking his talents at all, but a lot of other brilliant talented people in US history ended up falling victim to bad timing.  

If Edwards gets it he will have the Steel and Mineworkers, rural farmers, pooverty and fair trade activists, and lefty sections of the blogosphere of the party to thank. That's his base he needs to stay true to. If Hillary gets it she will have to thank the public workers unions, the old Clinton machine, and the tons of state and elected Democratic officials.

If Obama get, he will have to thank..Oprah? That's a problem. It could end being Carter like situtation. Jimmy Carter came out of nowhere with little political support from traditional Democratic bases to win, largely based on his own personal honestly. When his back got pushed to the wall, he didn't have a base to hold him up.


by alexmhogan on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:04:29 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Obama will have the people to thank, and that's who he'll be responsible to.


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

"First, let me just say that anyone who accuses skin color as some part behind the reasoning will find themselves banned--there is zero tolerance for accusations of racism."

I guess I'm torpedoing my future here on MyDD, but I really don't understand this statement. How does one "accuse skin color" anyways? Are you're saying that anyone who accuses you of doubting Barack's electability because of his skin color will be banned from your site?

While I personally did not get that from your piece, at the same time, as a biracial person myself, I'm totally offended by your attempt to completely shut down any discussion of race as a factor in your thinking. I guarantee you that the vast majority of blacks who aren't supporting Barack right now believe that white America is not ready to elect a black President. I think they're wrong, I think America is ready, and I believe that the election will turn more on the other issues that you so lucidly raise in your post.

But the fact remains that if you asked any average person on the street in America to analyze Barack Obama's chances in the general election, their first thought will probably be whether or not America will vote for a black man as Leader of the Free World. For you to shut down any discussion of this point in response to your blog questioning his "electability" in the general just tells me you're not willing to engage in an honest exchange of ideas.

Of course I don't think you're a racist. But you don't have to be a racist to consider the impact of race in politics in America. Just a realist.

So, I implore you not to ban me. But if you must, so be it, I can't stay silent about this one.


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:11:16 PM EST

Obama's fate could be tied to his cocaine use (none / 0)

Tom Edsell shows us a couple of polls that show Americans may not be ready for a President who admits to cocaine use as an adult, as Obama has.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/11 /as-iowa-nears-clinton-al_n_76235.html


by dpANDREWS on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:13:49 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Can you imagine what these fear-mongers would have done to JFK?  Or poor MLK?  To these so-called liberals there is no room for disagreement or moderation.  They are Leninites, ready to shoot everyone, and they start with their natural allies.  And they are at heart liars because they will not admit their real concern so they mask it in duplicity.  No one is fooled.


by Javier Doval on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:13:52 PM EST

Terrible Post (2.00 / 0)

Obama has the highest approval rating of ANY senator , including half of Ill evangelicals and R's.  Why do you want to shoot liberals in the foot by saying he can't win because he is to liberal?  I've heard republicans say they are against Affirmative Action, but can handle it when the hear Obama talk about it.  That they understand why we need a solution to Immigration when the hear Obama talk.  and so on, on a plethora of issues.  Chiefly the War -where he is not Pontius Pilot.  You are too cynical, too use to Politics as Usual, if we listened to you this country would never get anything done - because it  is not 'safe' to do anything.  Go ahead Jerome, play this election safe...let's stoop to the Republican level with our own Karl Rove's an tear apart the nation our way.  As for me, I'm going to believe that there are moments in history that transcend issues, partisanship, and gamesmanship - moment like now. Sometimes our challanges are bigger than our alliegances.  Like Obama said this weekend the question is not "can I win" but "should I win."  I'm voting, and a lot of the nation will be voting for, the candidate that should win: Barack Obama.

The article your citing ends with "what happens if both parties nominate candidate who can't win?"  Do you really think any of the Republicans can win?  Perhaps McCain could, but the rest will self-destruct.  Just look at Guilani imploding over the past two weeks.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:17:10 PM EST

the staff did it (none / 0)

When a campaign says, when faced with the candidates answers to questions from a liberal group: "Some of the answers accurately reflect Obama's position. Others do not." What am I supposed to conclude Obama's positions are?

As far as I can tell Obama's positions are whatever is convenient for Obama, regardless of what he said in the past.


by souvarine on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:25:49 PM EST

Re: the staff did it (none / 0)

If you really want to know a candidates positions read their web page not a 11 year old questionnaire.

Leaking it is a nice "dirty trick" move by Hillary though. Kudos to her.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

although ... (none / 0)

..I'm not sure that casting Obama as a closet progressive really hurts him in the primaries.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who else... (none / 0)

seems to invariably blame others for his mistakes?


by citizen53 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:36:30 PM EST

You've Outdone Yourself. (2.00 / 2)

Wow.  You begin by saying partisan progressives won't support him and then say he's unelectable because he is a progressive.  Would you have preferred he answer the opposite on all those questions? It makes no sense but when the progressives pick the candidate with the least progressive voting record of the three as their candidate, I guess I'm just not hip to the reverse psychology that's at work.

I love the way you threaten to ban anyone who charges racism and then you throw in a nice little fear of racism comment to set the tone.  I am not saying you are a racist, but you are a fearmonger and your analysis of the Harold Ford ad is wrong.  If it speaks to the weakness of any of the Presidential candidates it speaks to the weakness of Edwards, not Obama.

The ad is not about race, it's about sex.  The ad didn't have legs and impact because of racism.  It was effective because it made Ford out to be a hypocrite.

The ad begins with a guy saying Ford is being supported by the porno industry and ends with a slut saying let's fuck.  That's what the ad is saying, not lock up your daughters, Mandingo's come to town.  Everyone knew at that point Ford was black and there is no fear to be spread about him being with white women - a tactic which might make sense to fight integration and busing, but not a Senator going to Washington.  The context of the ad was him attending a party at the Super bowl thrown by Playboy, while running around the State as a devout born-again Christian, handing out business cards with bible verses on them.  He gave the ad it's power when he responded if the objection is I like Women and Football, then I'm guilty as charged.  Funny, but not effective. The accusation was you preach one thing and act another, and his statement just backed it up.

It's the hypocrite, phony factor.  It's Edwards caring about the poor and getting a $400 haircut.  It's Edwards preaching about the Environment and building an obscene carbon footprint as a dream house.  It's Edwards calling the War on Terror a bumper sticker and voting to invade Iraq to stop terrorists from getting their hands on Hussein's WMD.  Who is the real Harold Ford?  Who is the real John Edwards?  

That's what the ad was about, not racism.  And to say it was, to fearmonger on a falsity is....well, let's just say it is wrong.


by Piuma on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:39:36 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Taylor Marsh is now discussing this questionnaire on her popular radio show.


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:48:04 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Well said Piuma....


by joachim on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:56:36 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I share Jerome's concerns about Obama's electability. I have similar concerns about Clinton and Edwards, and each of the other Democrats. It seems to me that a lot of the discussion Jerome has elicited consists of candidates' partisans ignoring the obvious defects of their own favorite while putting other candidates under the microscope. The party and the country both deeply need these partisans to come together when a nominee is selected and go all-out with their support to defeat the real evils the present Republican party represents. Anti-Clintonites, this includes you.

That said, I have two points to make. First, Jerome has erected a barrier to discussion regarding Obama's race. If this means that he will ban any comment accusing him of demeaning Obama because of his (Jerome's) own purported racism, I have no problem with that.

If, however, it is because he feels that any discussion of the effect of race in the general election, I fear that Jerome is constructing a gigantic blind spot.  I cannot agree with his statement in his 2nd paragraph that having black skin is as negligible as being a woman, a southerner or a northeasterner.  First, I'm not at all convinced that being a woman candidate for president doesn't carry with it a built-in disadvantage. In fact, I think that one reason that so many Republicans have such virulent opinions about Clinton is that a female leader doesn't comport with their underlying authoritarianism.

The fact is that the Republican party has only achieved its dominance in the last several decades by constant appeal to innate fear of the other, the stranger, that resides deep inside all of us. (And I include myself.) The reason that Stephen Colbert's routine about not seeing race is so effective is that it punctures the liberal myth that they (we) are "past" race. I don't believe that any of us, meaning the entire human race, is past race. If you travel abroad, you'll find that racism, or nationalism, or tribalism, is rampant everywhere. It is the constant job of all of us to confront the prejudgments based upon race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation that well up from inside us unbidden with the higher levels of brain function, and thereby wrestle them to the ground.

I have grave doubts about polling numbers that indicate that most Americans would be willing to vote for a black presidential candidate at this time. People do things in the anonymity of the voting booth that they won't admit even in an anonymous poll, and often won't even admit to themselves.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Obama's votes in a general election mysteriously falling off by 5 to 7 percent. That is not a general condemnation of Americans as racist, but it sure is enough to lose an election.

(I do want to note that there is a tremendous generational shift of attitudes about race, as their is about sexual orientation. I just conclude that Jerome is placing us farther along that curve than we are right now.)

Point two.  I have always been dubious of Obama's campaign philosophy of being above partisanship. (I'm not opposed to the philosophy in general, just to its centrality to his campaign.) I know that polls always point to the disgust the people have for the current hyper-partisanship, but I'm not so sure that is the deep meaning of the results. I think that the people are reacting to the REPLACEMENT of partisanship for consideration of issues in the media, to the sense of problems not being solved, and to the fact that most Americans are more inclined to sensible iterations of progressive goals than conservative ones (with the exception of guns and some "value" issues in some segments of the population) and that the progressive measures haven't been advanced.  I don't think most Americans understand how Obama, if he were elected, would bring about an end to partisanship, or anything like it. I'm not sure that Obama knows how he would take significant steps in that direction.

Finally, as a corollary to my second point, I have a troubling vision of what might happen if Obama were elected. It is the same vision, though watered down, that I had when Perot was running for president or for Bloomberg were he to run. If Perot had been elected, he would have been a president with no real party structure standing behind him. He would have had to try building cross-party coalitions on every single issue, and his only real tool would have been the bully pulpit. I think he would have been an enormous failure as president. I think that the further President Obama pushed his anti-partisan agenda, the less effective his presidency would be.

My conclusion is that the current level of partisanship is with us for a very long time, and that only two things can help change it: (1) Regaining control over the mass media in a way that lets all voices, not just conservative voices, be heard, and (2)a long period of Democratic rule that accomplishes real progress, so that the Republicans are seen are the childish, bitter bomb-throwers they are.

With all that out of the way, I want to emphasize that I like and respect Obama and find a lot of the recent attacks on him to be unfounded. I hope that he has a great future in our country's politics. He might well unite voters in a way I am just not seeing, and he might surprise us all with his accomplishments. If he is the nominee I will work hard to support him, and I hope that everyone in the party does likewise.


by anoregonreader on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:01:55 PM EST

thoughtful but off base (none / 0)

Point one- Race.  You are a coward.  Putting aside whether the 20 year ago Bradley effect still exists, your argument seems to be that we not risk a Democratic nominee who is black because we might be defeated by both covert and overt racism.  If you think this way, you are validating racism by not confronting it head on.  Are you willing to fight to expose, ridicule and then defeat lingering racism?  Obama as the nominee will give us the opportunity to do that.  What do you stand for- only winning?

Point two- Partisanship.  Obama is not above partisanship, anti-partisanship or non-partisanship, he is about smart partisanship.  This is how Obama would do it.  He comes in with a clean slate and no 15 year built up scar tissue and baggage.  He does it through tone and style.  He does it by not walking up to the opposition and punching them in the nose.  He does it by listening to their arguments and when they make a compelling enough case, strategically gives them 20% to 30% of what they want as long as it is reasonable.  After 20 years of toxicity and stalemate, isn't it worth a try?

If all of this does not work, then we can go back to your rock'em sock'em robot style and dreams of controlling the media and another FDR administration.  It's time to confront your own fear. Deal?  


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thoughtful but off base (none / 0)

My response? One. Your mudslinging, far too typical of this forum and the internet generally, is probably something like what Jerome had in mind when he sought to limit the discussion of race. You don't know me, you don't know anything about me other than this post, but you feel free to slander someone because that person responded to a thread about a candidate's electibility by writing about his electibility. Your response seems to be that one can't talk about the electibility of the first major party leading candidate who is black. That is just wrong.

Two. Since when is a critical examination of US racial attitudes the moral equivalent of "validating racism?" If I were to respond in kind, I (like a lot of commenters might) would tell you that you really want Republicans to win because you won't confront the weaknesses of your candidate. This is the degree of dishonesty in your response to my post. I won't do that, because it is a bullshit argument, just like yours. You and I are driving down the road. "Look, mboehm!" I exclaim. "There is a horrible traffic accident up ahead." You reply, "By acknowledging the existence of the accident, you are complicit in causing it." Cheap and specious.

Three. I don't want a candidate who will allow us to "expose, ridicule and then defeat lingering racism." Frankly, that is not the job of the party nominee, and I don't think for a minute that Obama is trying out for that job. The nominee's job is to BEAT THE REPUBLICAN.

Perhaps you are too young to appreciate this point. I have been around long enough to personally see and feel the hurt of Humphrey's defeat by Nixon, McGovern's defeat by Nixon, Carter's defeat by Reagan, and the losses by Dukakis, Gore and Kerrey. Several of those nominees were simply not up to the task of beating their opponents.

Those losses cast this country adrift, and injured it in more ways than I can count. Hell, yes, I'm a ll about winning. We need to stop Republican proto-Fascism now. The is the highest goal any of us can have. We have an adversary that is systematically gutting the Constitution, amassing dark executive power and actively seeking out war, while shifting wealth and power to a selected few and driving the rest into economic insecurity. My fear is that they will win again, nothing else.

I will not tolerate letting this opportunity slip away in order to pursue a cockeyed moral quest that your own candidate would not endorse. (Check it out. How often has Obama said his campaign is about electing him, a person of color, in order to defeat racism? He is running because he believes that he can be the best national leader. Any other reason would be a betrayal of the party and the country.)

Four. Your statement about partisanship is fine, as far as it goes. But I'm reacting to how Obama has defined his own campaign to the people, not your characterization of it. There's nothing wrong, and much that is noble and good, about Obama's vision. I just don't think that it will win. And the post and thread were about winning, weren't they?


by anoregonreader on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thoughtful but off base (none / 0)

One more point. Your argument is cheap and specious. You aren't. I am not attacking you. So don't attack me.


by anoregonreader on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:05:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I apologize... (none / 0)

I probably read too much into your comments.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize... (none / 0)

I am happy to accept your apology. It is really easy to misconstrue comments online (no waving hands or facial expressions).

I don't want to stifle you either. From your comments, you obviously have lots of heart and spirit to give in the fight against the Republican horde. And smarts.

I'' look forward to reading your comments from now on. Take care.


by anoregonreader on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:14:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I completely agree (none / 0)

I think you forgot a few thing in your list of qualifications:

1) 3 years in the US Senate;

2) 8 years in the Illinios State Senate where he Chaired the committe on health and human sevices;

3) 12 years as a civil rights attorney;

4) 12 years as a Constitutional Law Professor at the University of Chicago;

5) Elected 1st AA President of the Harvard Law Review and graduates magna cum laude.

6) Community organizer on Chicago's south side.

7) Graduated magna cum laude from Columbia in International Affairs.

He passed numerous pieces of legislation in Illinios including ethics reform, children's health care, death penalty reform, etc.  In DC he was the Dem point man on the ethics reform package that passed and is considered the most significant reform since Watergate.

I don't mind disagreements in electability discussions, but it would be nice if we would start off with some accurate information.  Thanks.


by upper left on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:19:47 PM EST

come on! here's just a taste (none / 0)


    It would be so easy for the GOP

   the man wants to BAN making guns
    the man wants to BAN owning guns
    hes against the death penalty
    he wants to let crackheads out of jail
    he wants to let illegal aliens on your roads
    he wants to raise your taxes by 1 TRILLION $s        
    he was college professor
    he was/is a HARVARD lawyer
    hes the chicago Daley machine
    Rezko!
    he goes to  church who's rector hates whites
    his brothers are both in the nation of islam
    his grandma has no elect or water-and hes okw/that
    his middle name is hussein
    his last name is obama
    he doesnt LOOK like you
    he is a liberal democrat
    Young Hollywood likes him
    will smith says hes gonna be the NEXT black Prez
    how can he understand YOUR lives?
    he says hes experienced enough for the WH because he lived in indonesia when he was 6
    who IS his guy?

   ---

   people - this is just stuff i made up in 2 minutes. this IS the kind of stuff they will say.

   Have you ever sen the stuff that comes out of RNC fax machines?

   They would love you to pick him.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:23:39 PM EST

Re: come on! here's just a taste (none / 0)

you don't want to see my hillary list.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:52:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

areyouready that was funny, racist and pathetic but it did make me laugh, thanks!


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:44:14 PM EST

tip o' the iceberg (none / 0)

and each of those lines would spawn their own mini tales...

how long have you lived in the usa btw?

cause if u think thats racist, wait till u meet my fellow americans.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

All this meta!!! (none / 0)

Having a base to push back isn't a necessarily condition on electability - having a platform that transcends the attacks takes care of that. You're argument reduces to a dislike for the man's platform. Fine, we can agree that he isn't the most progressive of the candidates. But - unlike Edwards - Obama has a good chance of actually enacting some of the planks on his platform. His presidency would constitute progress, even if it isn't Progressive.


by scudbucket on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:49:22 PM EST

DIGBY! (none / 0)

Digby has a post on Sen. Obama :

 

Running to the right on health care and social security combined with the anti-gay gospel singer, taking Robert Novak smears at face value, repeating Jeff Gerth lies and now going after Paul Krugman, leads me to the niggling awareness that this is a conscious, if subtle, strategy. Any one of those things could be an accident, and perhaps some of them are. But taken as a whole, conscious or not, liberal fighters in the partisan wars are being sistah soljahed. Unlike the big issue of Iraq where being on the right side is being on the left side, these little digs and policy positioning are all sweet spots for the Village --- and sore spots for the base.

   Perhaps that's the smart move. It has long been known by just about everyone who matters that the rank and file activists of the Democratic party are a huge liability. And anyway, where are we going to go? Mike Huckabee? Ron Paul? We have no choice. So, no harm no foul. Running to the right of even Hillary Clinton on health care and social security and using GOP talking points and symbolism is probably all upside. It may be the best way to insure a win in the fall. But I can't say that it looks like either a transformative inspirational politics or a willingness to fight the conservatives and win on the merits.

   I still don't know who I'm voting for. I've criticized all of them and I have defended all of them against the media's predictable demeaning coverage. But in the end, when I choose who to vote for, I'm going to take into account which candidates see the political culture and the quality of the opposition for what it is and what it isn't. Obama is a tremendously exciting and talented politician and I would vote for him against any Republican out there without blinking an eye. But as a certified DFH, I really wish he weren't running this way. Paul Krugman most certainly is not the enemy and neither am I.



Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:14:39 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

I would like to thank you for presenting your political philosophy so clearly.  It's important to have these sorts of discussions, and appreciate the view from the other side.

That said, this argument strikes me as both anti-Democrat and anti-democratic.  You want us to win office, but not by actually competing in the battlefield of ideas.  Presumably you still want us to pursue progressive policies in government, but apparently without ever being honest about them in the campaign.  In my opinion, that is the recipe for electoral disaster... if not in '08, then in '10 and beyond.  You can't win a debate if you don't even show.  And frankly, you don't have to win every debate in order to pull out an election.  You just have to win respect, and you do that by being strong.  Strong enough to stand by your convictions.  And, yes, strong enough to listen to your opponents and include them in the conversation, too.

If we do that, then maybe we can have an election victory that actually means something.  Then maybe we can build a movement that's about more than party labels.  


by Ryan Anderson on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:23:52 PM EST

Vetting (none / 0)

I followed the link to Tom Watson's post and the thing that struck me was his point that we're just now finding out about this questionnaire now.  One of the side effects of Obama's MSM love is that he hasn't gotten a lot of critical coverage.  I don't honestly know much detail about his past or how it might fair under GOP smears.  I think Dems would be better served by a closer look at Obama's past.  I don't expect to find anything there that's particularly scandalous, but I don't really want to find out I'm wrong about that in October 2008.

Because Obama hasn't run a national campaign before and had a weak opponent in his Senate campaign, he hasn't had the scrutiny Clinton and Edwards have had.  He needs it and we need to see how he handles it.  He may do a great job - that would be an important thing to know and very reassuring.

Like Watson, the main reason I think Hillary can withstand the smears is that everything that can be said and more is already out there.  Once you've been accused of murdering one of your best friends there's not a lot left.  What can the right possibly say that everyone hasn't already heard?

And while I'm generally sympathetic to claims of staffers making mistakes, since campaigns are huge organizations that rely on low-paid staff and volunteers, I don't think you can claim that a campaign manager misrepresented a candidate's positions on issues.  How can a campaign manager not know the candidate's positions and if she or he can't speak for the candidate, who can?  I know they said the manager hadn't run the answers past Obama, but it strikes me that that's because they didn't need to.  


by BDB on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:36:22 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

OMFG!!!!  You put the finger on it, and I thought I had already sussed it out.

Good job!!!

I'm noting this on my blog, with the tag "good writing"


It could be worse, I could still be living in Texas.
by msaroff on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:41:44 PM EST

How will Obama fare against the right-wing attack (2.00 / 1)

machine?

Well, the same way he is against the left-wing one - yourself included. I'd say...that points to his numbers rising and his support broadening.

Ban me if you want - I couldn't care less at this point since this site has lost just about every speck of credibility it ever had - but honestly, will there EVER come a day when you are able to post something about Obama and it won't include utter lies and misrepresentations? You're as bad as Sirota - and both of you are as bad as any right-wing MSM hack.

This primary has certainly revealed the true colors of a lot of bloggers - and the results are anything but pretty.

May as well push that "ban" button, Jerome. I won't be bothering to come back anyway. I only bother to read sites that actually have credibility.


by Elise on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:41:57 PM EST

One last thing - (none / 0)

I love that you SLAM Obama for having the most progressive positions on issues of ANY of our candidates in this primary. It exposes your centrism as clearly as anything else you've written this year.

Obama is bad because he's progressive. Clinton is good because she's not. We got it.


by Elise on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One last thing - (none / 0)

You misunderstood the diary.  I recommend you read and reread it until its full import and significance is comprehended.


by truthteller2007 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 01:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will Obama fare against the right-wing att (none / 0)

dont leave. this place needs you.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 03:03:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Talk Straight (2.00 / 1)

Jerome, you begin by saying you have a nagging skepticism which deserves an explanation, and then proceed not to give that explanation.  Anyone who has read your stuff knows what really bothers you can be written in one word:

Axelrod.

And the explanation for why can be written in two:

Professional jealousy.


by Piuma on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:55:26 PM EST

oh god (none / 0)

are you people in middle school?


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Aside from the emptiness of waging a campaign on the cult of personality, the current Obama strategy is fraught with danger.

First, the media giveth and the media taketh away.

The see-saw (darling of the media one day and the target of media slash and burn the next, hasn't begun to play out with Obama.

His best insurance isn't running as a personality, but rather on the strength of his positions.  And, in recent months it seems like Obama is focusing less, not more, on the issues.

Second, it is also dangerous for Dems to assume that ideas will get more fleshed out (to our liking, presumably) later.  It is not going to get any better than this (for Dems).  It only goes donwhill with more and more appeals to Independents and Republicans.  This is OUR primary.  And if Obama is already marketing to Is and Rs then he never will market to Dems.  We are cooked.  You can stick a fork in us.  Where issues are concerned we are dead meat.  And this is from our side of the aisle.

I like the guy.  But I am really afraid that, where positions that matter to us are concerned, we are really being had here.


Born Questioning
by KathyinBlacksburg on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:54:07 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Jerome, I happen to agree with you about Barack Obama's chances.  Nonetheless, I have to take issue with you about the role of color-aroused decision-making in the presidential race.  Considering that no Black person has ever been nominated to national ticket of either of the two political parties in all of the history of the United States; and considering that there is only one Black US senator among a hundred, even though the country is 13% Black; I think there is insufficient evidence to conclude that skin color no longer plays a role in American politics.

Jerome, above you said:

"First, let me just say that anyone who accuses skin color as some part behind the reasoning will find themselves banned--there is zero tolerance for accusations of racism."

Are you saying that you know that skin color does not play a role in your analysis, or are you saying that it could play a role, but you will not tolerate discussion of the role it might play?

Anytime you start a discussion by insisting that the point most people will want to explore is off limits, you acknowledge the necessity of exploring that VERY issue, in order to satisfy people's curiosity about it.

Saying what you have is analogous to saying, "Let me explain why I don't believe Hillary Clinton can be president,  but anyone who accuses me of sexism will be banned."  Why would anyone accuse you of racism or sexism if its so patently obvious that none of either is involved?

And why would you expect an issue that seems so clear to you to simultaneously be so UNCLEAR to others?  

Why would a non-issue become so contentious that would you have to threaten to ban others in order to stifle their dissent or get rid of them entirely?

If you exile everyone who believes that color-aroused decision-making is not dead in America, do you think that will have a disproportionate impact on any particular demographic group's participation at MyDD?  For example, in light of studies that show a 30% gap between Blacks and whites in our opinion as to whether color-aroused decision-making has receded, would exiling everyone who disagrees with you about this have a disparately negative impact on Black people.  Does that not concern you at all?

Twice above, you say that you have "nagging
doubts"
about Barack Obama.  Black people and Black political candidates will be very familiar with this phenomenon, because whites very often seem to have "nagging doubts" about Blacks. And most whites deny these doubts as you have, eny until they get into the voting booths and express them openly.

Jerome, above you said:

"I don't even view Obama as black or with racial distinction. Identity-wise, I can understand why he's seen as such, but in that regard (and I have two kids with this same beauty), it points to a bright future when such fallacies such as 'race' become historical dust, and racism ceases."

I agree with you that we should get beyond color-aroused decision-making.  However, I'm afraid that your insistence that we have done so already shows a level of denial about the nature of color-arousal in America that borders on the delusional, with both feet on the wrong side of the border.  

I have to tell you, Jerome, that I feel sorry for your two children who have other-than-white skin color, but who lack a father-figure who can realistically help them to deal with their experiences in America.  They will have to grow up in the real world rather than in the world of your fantasies, and they will have no reality-based paternal guidance to help them with these issues.


by Manic Lawyer on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:01:32 AM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

it's classic, isn't it? white people claiming they don't see race. i had to laugh this morning when joe scarborough, reviewing video of the oprah event with obama and michelle sharing the stage, insisted he didn't think of them as black.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Obama has no experience of the hostile and polarized political environment that he'd enter were he to win the nomination,

you've never heard michelle obama talk about barack's state senate years.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:29:10 AM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

you can list all the issues you want, in the end, voters go with their gut. what they feel about the person. pollster after pollster has attested to this.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:41:02 AM EST

electability (none / 0)

would you support edwards if he were black?

would you support hillary if she were black?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:45:39 AM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

i hope it's not obama's palestinian comment that has gotten under your skin.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:59:38 AM EST


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