2008 Presidential Expectations Game

Sunday morning talk shows are as good a place as any to gauge the developing media conventional wisdom, which will inform the expectations going into and, perhaps more important, coming out of the early state caucuses and primaries.

Foremost on the talking heads' minds (particularly Meet The Press but also Fox News Sunday,) was still the ABC News/WaPo Iowa poll that showed Obama pulling ahead of Clinton within the margin of error. Although a week old, the poll still merited chatter thanks to a slow holiday news week, the fact that it was the most recent poll out of this key early state not to mention that if true, it could be game changing. The question remains, however, whom the media's focus on this one poll has the potential to hurt more, Obama or Clinton. For Clinton, the danger is that the media takes a hold of this story line (Mara Liason went so far as to suggest there might be a "new front-runner" in Iowa) and it becomes self-fulfilling. The greater danger, however, might be for Obama. If one poll showing Obama ahead is enough to change the conversation to "Obama rising," imagine one or two subsequent polls showing Clinton up by just a few points, as most recent polls have. Suddenly, is Clinton the comeback kid? Is Obama falling? Of course not, but that's exactly what all the media hype about this one poll is setting up, which is not good for Obama. Also, if it is going to be essentially a tie going into January 3, Clinton would much rather the expectations of her performance be lowered so that if she does lose, it's not the end of the world but rather would simply be a pre-cursor to a "comeback" in New Hampshire. Mary Matalin had an interesting take on MTP that could be a sign of how a Clinton loss in Iowa might be spun.

The best thing that could happen to Hillary Clinton is to lose Iowa. [...]  There's a fast calendar.  It's a change election, but it's a completely unique and fluid and dynamic situation.  If she loses, she gets knocked back.  We've seen repeatedly, this is the Energizer bunny of candidates.  She takes a licking, and she gets--keeps on ticking.  And she's got the money, she's got the team, she's got the resolve.

On the Republican side there was the usual "Fred Thompson is flailing" and "it's Romney's nomination to lose" observations, but most interesting was perhaps the Huckabee and Giuliani dynamics.

For one thing, it seems to be conventional wisdom that a Huckabee win in Iowa will most likely not translate to a strong performance in New Hampshire and thus he'll likely be stalled in his run for the nomination. This is due to the different make-up of the GOP electorate in the two early states, but one thing Huckabee's rise does do is help Giuliani.

For one thing, a Huckabee win in Iowa, or even a strong second, wounds Romney, and puts eyes on South Caroline where Rudy is vying for his first real win. In addition, the expected 1-2 of Romney and Huckabee in Iowa and Romney's expected win in New Hampshire means that Giuliani's expectations are somewhat lowered; he'll be strong leaving the early states with a third in Iowa and a second place finish in New Hampshire. Which may have been Giuliani's early state strategy all along, to remain in play in the early states to an extent whereby he can make his move once the players are set. If this latest "Giuliani Revives NH Campaign" article on the NY Times Caucus blog is any indication, that's exactly what he's beginning to do.

G.O.P. candidate Rudolph W. Giuliani criss-crossed New Hampshire on a bus this weekend, shifting his strategy a bit away from his concentration on the states that vote Feb. 5 and focusing more on his rivals who have long courted the Granite State's vote.

The thing about conventional wisdom, of course, is that it changes on a dime and was made to be broken, especially this year with the unprecedented primary calendar and too-close-to-call races on both sides of the aisle. Look for this so-called wisdom to shift wildly in the coming pivotal weeks.



Display:


Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

As I have documented before, Iowa creates about a 19 point swing in New Hampshire.  The idea that Matlin could mouth such nonsense is astonishing.

If Hillary loses Iowa, she loses New Hampshire.  In fact, Iowa is even more important than ever because of the compressed time between Iowa and New Hampshire.  In the past two candidates have lost leads in New Hampshire because of the impact of Iowa (Reagan in '80, Bush in '88) and fought back to win.  Both would have lost with the existing schedule.

But then Tom Wicker (a smart guy) wrote in the New York Times that Reagan and Kennedy had Iowa all sewn up in November of 1979.

For the record, neither won Iowa.


by fladem on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 11:50:43 AM EST

No one actaully believes that. (none / 0)

This election is wide open and we have not had one like this since the '60's.  Last time around you had a number of relatively unknown candidates.  Hillary is famous.  It will take more than losing Iowa to decimate her firewall in NH.


by bookgrl on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 12:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one actaully believes that. (none / 0)

Your argument- name recognition- makes his argument stronger rather than weaker. Name ID is a double edge sword. A lot of this will depend on the media coverage after her almost certain lose in IA at this point. Almost certain because  she's telegraphing an expected lose by lowering expectations.


by bruh21 on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 12:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kennedy was pretty famous, so was Reagan (none / 0)

and both found themselves behind in New Hampshire after losing Iowa.


by fladem on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 02:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kennedy was pretty famous, so was Reagan (none / 0)

Carter got a huge bump well before the nomination process because of the Iran hostage crisis situation.  There was a rallying effect around the sitting president no opposing candidate could have possibly overcome.  

It is absolutely ridiculous to attribute a New Hampshire BOUNCE to Carter winning Iowa during his re-election bid.  That nomination battle was over as soon as the hostage crisis hit, due to the rallying around effect benefitting Carter that followed immediately.   The Edwards-Carter situation is actually a perfect example to show how flawed the argumentation on the "Iowa produces a huge bounce for NH" theory actually is.  


by georgep on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 11:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please read some history (none / 0)

The loss in Iowa was severe enough that Kennedy (who still lead in New Hampshire pre-Iowa) suspended his campaign.

Here's a suggestion - try responding with actual data to support your arguments.

The reality is you have no data - because Iowa always creates a huge bounce in NH.  You can cite no evidence - you do not bother to actually do research.

You simply say its absurd.  In fact, responding the way you do absent facts is absurd.


by fladem on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 09:51:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

Are they doing any more polling in Iowa or have they decided to just harp on the ABC/WP Poll instead? Wonder when the next polling is going to come? It is already a week since the ABC/WP poll.


by Boilermaker on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 12:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

its the poll that keeps the horserace alive (none / 0)

One thing is clear above all other things, the pundits in the media village look at politics as sport and entertainment and more than anything, they love the excitement, glamor and ratings a close election offers.

And they'll do whatever it takes, to make elections more interesting for themselves.

From Campaign 2000, MSNBC with Brian Williams.

   HOWARD FINEMAN (9/21/00): I don't think the media was going to allow, just by its nature, the next seven weeks, the last seven or eight weeks of the campaign, to be all about Al Gore's relentless, triumphant march to the presidency. We want a race, I suppose. If we have a bias of any kind, it's that we like to see a contest and we like to see it down to the end if we can.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 08:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

To make the bold claim that if Clinton loses Iowa she automatically loses New Hampshire is nonsense.  I guess some Obama posters use a lot of wishful thinking in their analysis of this particular race.   That is fine, but wishing does not substitute for reality, just as a 5 month old national "gross outlier" poll Gallup released does not reflect current reality of the race, which someone who looks at the race realistically rather than through the intense "wish" lense would have caught within mere seconds.  


by georgep on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 01:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

How do you know who he supports? because he disagrees with you?


by bruh21 on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 01:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

I've seen the writing over at openleft.

No big deal to me, but we can't be looking at completely different races (i.e. 2004 or when Kennedy lost his previous poll lead to Carter because of Carter's good-will rise during the Iran-hostage crisis) and make our predictions based on those types of movements.

One thing nobody has addressed yet is that Gallup is convinced that Clinton will win the Democratic nomination based on the fact that no candidate (Democratic or Republican) has ever failed to win his party's nomination after showing 20% or higher leads in their national poll after August.   They make a strong case, and they have been around for polling analysis for many years.  Could this cycle be different and buck the historical trends?  It could.  But it is probably more likely that it does not.


by georgep on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 01:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

Fla Dem as far as I can tell leans Edwards but has  indicating an openness to all the candidates. He has consistently put his views of the historical impact of IA and NH out there even when he was less partisan.


by bruh21 on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 01:33:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

Gallup had a very poor record in the 2004 presidential race and picked it 49-49, they could not even pick a winner.

The final result was 51-48 Bush over Kerry, At least 5-6 polling organizations had better records.

They had wild swings of 10 pts within a few day's of each other during that election cycle that is the GE CYCLE.

tHEY GENERALLY POLL ALL ADULTS NOT rv OR lv

What Fladem is doing is showing the changes in NH primary polling for the IA caucus winner amnd what the avg bump is in winning Iowa.

Nobody can say with certain if Obama OR EDWARDS WILL WIN nh IF THEY WIN iOWA, BUT THE AVERAGES FROM PAST EXPERIENCE IS IN THEIR FAVOR.


by BDM on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 04:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheer uneducated non-sense (none / 0)

One thing is clear above all other things, the pundits in the media village look at politics as sport and entertainment and more than anything, they love the excitement, glamor and ratings a close election offers.

And they'll do whatever it takes, to make elections more interesting for themselves.

From Campaign 2000, MSNBC with Brian Williams.

   HOWARD FINEMAN (9/21/00): I don't think the media was going to allow, just by its nature, the next seven weeks, the last seven or eight weeks of the campaign, to be all about Al Gore's relentless, triumphant march to the presidency. We want a race, I suppose. If we have a bias of any kind, it's that we like to see a contest and we like to see it down to the end if we can.

It's Deja Vu...all over again...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 08:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She is saying it would be good (none / 0)

for Hillary to lose Iowa.

That is complete lunacy.

But put me to the test: explain to me how she is right.   Explain to me how it would be a good thing for Hillary's chances to lose Iowa.


by fladem on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 02:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She is saying it would be good (none / 0)

I never said Matalin is right.  Did you read my post?  Where did I mention her at all?  

What I took exception to was the bold claim that an Iowa win would automatically lead to a New Hampshire win for Obama.  Given nomination history we have seen, that is unadulterated nonsense, pure lunacy.   Non-incumbent candidate Iowa wins have more often than not led to New Hampshire losses than the other way around  (i.e. Mondale, Gephardt, Harkin, Muskie.)


by georgep on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 11:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

to answer your insult (none / 0)

I DID think it was an outlier and said so.


by fladem on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 02:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: to answer your insult (none / 0)

I read the diary (although I was at work and could not respond,) and to your credit there was the warning of a possible outlier, but there was a lot more than that as well.  Namely the claim that this shows a major tightening of national polls, Obama perhaps surging, etc.

 When Chris Bowers was still here, he imposed strict polling diary guidelines, and he would delete diaries that did not follow those rules.  Amongst them is clearly showing trendlines and polling methodologies of a given poll, otherwise the poll diary is logically practically worthless.  At the very latest when entering the methodology section into the poll diary, the field dates of the poll would have stared you right in the face, although the diary itself gave many indications (i.e. "compared to our last poll in May.")     I think, given the incredible change this poll supposedly was going to show, a diary about it required that type of extra care.

Anyway, I am trying to get an answer to a simple question that puts at least some historical perspetive to the race:  Gallup claims that they have never had a candidate lead their national poll by at least 20% over the closest competitor as late as September of the year preceding the first caucus/primary, and not win the nomiation.  It would be unprecedented for that 20%+ frontrunner to lose the nomination.   I can't think of a good reason that would occur, regardless of Iowa, given the strength Clinton is showing across the board (particularly when it comes to already committed support vs. soft support.)  

Since the latest Gallup poll (released last week, the real one :-) ) has shown unchanged Clinton strength (a 27% lead over Obama) it seems that almost four decades of Gallup history is at stake here, with the theory of them showing such massive, huge national leads for one frontrunner late in the process invariably leading to an eventual nomination being put to a good test here.


by georgep on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 11:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read the data (none / 0)

Dean had a 23 point lead in 2004 - larger than Clinton's most recent leads.  Kennedy led by 38.

Gallup does not poll as frequently as some others.

We have been here before - you simply ignore data opposite to your case.  When I noted Hart led Mondale, you went to the Gallup website, and said this wasn't true.  There were TWO national polls showing Hart leading after NH: CBS and NBC.  

I am not going to take any more non-sense from you.  Ironically Chris Bowers made the same mistake on Open Left. The mistake I made was an honest one.

You, I believe, seek to only to spin.


by fladem on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 09:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that is pure silliness (none / 0)

a fantasy.

lies, damn lies and your statistics...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 08:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

Zogby Vs Gallup..diametrically opposite results...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/politics/1 4693617/detail.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071126/pl_n m/usa_politics_poll_dc

Now, who do we believe...Actually the numbers out of Survey USA by state gells more with Gallup...

http://www.surveyusa.com/electionpolls.a spx

Survey USA's NM poll clearly indicates that McCain is the ever present danger. I think this swing towards McCain may be due to Hispanics liking his stance on Comprehensive Immigration bill.


by Boilermaker on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 01:57:25 PM EST

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

How about the new Zogby poll showing Hillary losing to all of the top 5 pugs, and Obama beating them all?  Sheesh.  I know it's Zogby, but Hillary is the candidate whom we're supposed to think is most electable?  I don't think so.


Senator Al Franken. Have I died and gone to heaven? Not yet. We're still in Purgatory.
by NM Ward Chair on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 01:58:34 PM EST

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

How about Gallup showing just the opposite?


by Boilermaker on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 02:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

As I said how about Hilary beating everyone of them?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/102862/Democr atic-Candidates-Look-Good-Latest-2008-Tr ial-Heats.aspx


by Boilermaker on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 02:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

DIFFEWRENT TIME FRAME:

Gallup Nov. 11-14th
Zogby Nov. 21-26th

Rasmussen Poll showed hillary losing to Guliani 46-42 Nov. 19-20th


by BDM on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 04:39:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

November 26th is not yet over and Zogby predicted Tom Strickland will beat Wayne Allard and Al Gore and George Bush are in a close call in November 2000. If we get a recession now as many economists predict these poll numbers are meaningless.


by Boilermaker on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 05:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

One more thing. Go to the state by state polls of Survey USA which has a pretty accurate forecasting record and figure out who is right. Survey USA's polls are more recent.


by Boilermaker on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 05:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

zogby was a OPT IN online poll - as reliable as one at kos.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 08:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

"Former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner, a Democrat who was exploring a bid for his party's presidential nomination in 2008, leads the way among so-called leadership PACs. Some $401,500 in Iowa campaign contributions was handed out by Warner's Forward Together PAC between mid-July and mid-October. He unexpectedly announced Thursday that he would not enter the race.

Most of the $401,500 was distributed among Democratic candidates for the Iowa House and Senate or paid to the Iowa Democratic Party for use in the fall campaign."

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20061017/NEWS09/61017038 4

Jerome, did you not work for this PAC?  If not, excuse me, but you did work for Warner.  Correct?


by iamready on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 01:59:18 PM EST

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

I don't particularly like playing the expectations game, because the rules are different for every candidate every time you play.

On the left, should Hillary lose Iowa ("almost certain," per bruh21), she'll inevitably lose NH (per fladem), at which point Obama is unstoppable for the nomination (per Chris and others).

On the right, should Huckabee win Iowa it doesn't help him in NH (per Todd), but rather hurts Romney and puts Giuliani in position to surge with SC--a win that everyone's taking for granted despite his having lost the first two states, even though it's universally understood that Hillary's support in other states will collapse if she doesn't crush the competition in Iowa. Right.

The only thing that I can see clearly is that this is an absurd, unacceptable way to choose our next president. Beyond that, I think Todd is correct--as the media hypes the newly exciting horse race, the impact of an Iowa loss is blunted for Clinton, and a close race sets up the same comeback narrative that benefitted her husband.

And NM Ward Chair, "I know it's Zogby, but" are words that you should never, ever find yourself typing.


by epenthesis on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 02:15:09 PM EST

Re: 2008 Presidential Expectations Game (none / 0)

A good website for tracking state by state polls..

http://www.presidentelectionpolls.com/


by Boilermaker on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 05:30:59 PM EST

After NH, it's MI, then NV, and only *then* SC (none / 0)

For one thing, a Huckabee win in Iowa, or even a strong second, wounds Romney, and puts eyes on South Caroline where Rudy is vying for his first real win. In addition, the expected 1-2 of Romney and Huckabee in Iowa and Romney's expected win in New Hampshire means that Giuliani's expectations are somewhat lowered; he'll be strong leaving the early states with a third in Iowa and a second place finish in New Hampshire. Which may have been Giuliani's early state strategy all along...

Suppose Huckabee wins Iowa, then Romney wins NH.  Then we get a string of states where Rudy either trails (SC, believe it or not) or leads narrowly (MI, NV).  And after them, a fourth one - Florida - where Romney's moving up.

So what happens after NH?  Romney gets a victory bounce going into Michigan, where the Romney name still means something.  Rudy's narrow lead crumbles, Romney wins.  Romney's got back-to-back wins now, and Rudy still hasn't won anywhere.  His narrow lead in NV crumbles, Romney wins.  Then SC, where Romney, as mentioned, is already ahead.  Romney wins, and by this time, he's passed Rudy in FL.

You know what I see?  I see Nevada becoming Rudy's make-or-break state.  If he can't win there, Mitt keeps rolling.  If he can, then he has a shot at reversing Mitt's momentum in SC, and if he can do that, he's back in command in FL, and probably does great in the Super Tuesday states.

You heard it here first: Nevada's got a great chance of being the state where the GOP nomination will be decided.


by RT on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 09:41:12 PM EST


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