Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa

Yesterday, I wrote about John Edwards' slippage in Iowa. Normally, I do not take great stock in polls this far out (yes, it is still too far out to take polls too seriously), especially the famously difficult to poll Iowa Caucus. My reasons for thinking the latest Iowa poll was not so much the numbers, as the fact that Edwards has dropped while Obama has risen since the end of July. Edwards now lacks a <span class="caps">POSITIVE </span>narrative for his candidacy for the critical last phases of the campaign. He has become the "attack Hillary" candidate (as opposed to being the Not Hillary candidate, the position he has now ceded without a shot to Barack Obama.)

At <span class="caps">MYDD, </span>Jerome Armstrong sees it differently:

Chiming in, it's great that the pollsters are now adding whether the voters attended the 2004 caucuses or not . . . I would tend to bank more on those that caucused in '04 . . .

With due respect to Jerome, I think he misses a very important point here, on the night of the caucus, the differences between previous caucus goers and first timers is simply not that great - both in choices and participation. For example, in 2004, the entrance polling showed:

Kerry won the initial preference of first-time caucus-goers, while Edwards and Dean roughly tied for second in this group. (First-timers made up 55 percent of participants, up from 46 percent in 2000.) . . .

Here's my point, the John Edwards campaign is looking more and more like the Gephardt campaign of 2004. He is supposed to have union support,  experienced caucus goers, etc. He has gone strongly negative against the perceived frontrunner. He is not a new face for Iowa, thus the change argument is difficult for him in terms of actually being a new candidate.

Most importantly, in my opinion, his dominant narrative now is one of a candidate whose campaign is dominated by personal attacks against the perceived frontrunner. Like Gephardt.

Unlike Kerry in 2004, or Edwards 2004 for that matter, there is no positive narrative for the Edwards campaign now. There is no doubt he can hurt Hillary (or Obama if he chooses to shoot in that direction), but he now has reached the point where he can not help his own campaign.

And this campaign choice by Edwards is utterly perplexing. He was very viable in Iowa. He had a positive agenda. He was <span class="caps">NOT </span>in a two person race, the only ones where negative attacks can work (driving up your own negatives is a necessary part of a campaign of attacks, the hope is you drive up your opponents' negatives even further.)

I think it is clear now that the Presidential race is a two person race in that only two people can win now. I think Edwards can not. And he did it to himself. The most baffling campaign decision I can remember.



Display:


Well, he seems to be back on track. (none / 0)

He is going back to his positive message.  He's actually back to my second choice.  Atleast he talks like a Democrat.  


by bookgrl on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:31:51 PM EST

So the narrative (none / 0)

is he backed down. It is too late now.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, the race is far from over. (none / 0)


by bookgrl on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

this is timely (none / 0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI2cdslvy i8

also FYI the iowa polls move the last two weeks so it's a bit premature.

also it's "inevitable" that Hillary not let Obama win Iowa and Obama not let Hillary win Iowa.  expect some clinton 527s to emerge or Robert Gibbs to head one for obama.

Edwards can sit and wait


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:34:46 PM EST

fyi (none / 0)

The fact that Iowa is decided in the last month is MY point.

You missed my point entirely.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

actually last 2 weeks (none / 0)

if you base it on 2004.

Dean and Gephardt were up a lot 4 weeks before ..
even 2 weeks before Edwards wasn't moving yet.

and you miss my point that Hillary and Obama each have 50 million of unlimited funds to spend and neither can afford to have the other win Iowa.

this will be gephardt v. dean on steroids.  Neither one had the money that obama and hillary had and neither one had the shady connections the clintons have.

I expect to see 527s and others coming out in the last 2 weeks


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually last 2 weeks (none / 0)

Obama will not go negative imo.

Clinton should not and will not imo.

hence, Edwards is cooked imo.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so you'd advise (2.00 / 1)

Hillary to let Obama win Iowa

and you'd advise Obama  to let Hillary win iowa?

All it takes is ONE of the two parties to try to take out the other to change your premise


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually last 2 weeks (none / 0)

Obama goes negative a lot; he just uses surrogates and campaign aides.  The man dumps lots of sharp elbows and many (though not all) of his supporters do the same.  It is Republicans who get the free ride from Obama.

Hillary will not go negative first but she will go nuclear in response to these Obama campaign attacks.  Somehow, they have not hurt Obama in Iowa despite the legendary opposition to negative campaigning.

In the poll averages that Chris Bowers runs, Obama has expanded his edge over Edwards from 2 to 3 points in Iowa.  I like Edwards.  If he's still alive, I'll vote for him on February 5.  I don't expect him to make it though.  If Hillary is the anti-Obama, she'll get my vote.  At least she knows enough to be partisan against the Republicans without getting personal against Democrats.  The day after Thanksgiving will start the home stretch lasting a month to December 24.  The last 10 days will be nicew nice Holiday cheer crap so the close will come tighter and sooner this cycle.


by David Kowalski on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:36:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

See, I feel exactly the same, except (none / 0)

in reverse order.  If Edwards is the anti-Obama in February, he'll get my vote for sure.


by bookgrl on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually last 2 weeks (2.00 / 1)

no, neither one of them is running nearly he stupid campaign that Edwards is. The only one going negative is Obama and he will pull back if he has the sense I think he does.
Edwards is either going to be stuck in his dumb strategy or he is going to sit and simmer.  He can't regain any ground, he has turned people off and bored them in turns. He has thrown everything in to his message but the kitchen sink.  NO ONE will believe he really intends to do all the things he has proposed.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

all it takes is ONE external event (none / 0)

to change things.

one thing with hillary (or Bill) or with Obama to dramatically change the landscape


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, Edwards started moving in early December (none / 0)

I can't remember what the polls said, but in early December 2003, a little more than a month before the caucuses, I started finding a surge in support for Edwards in my precinct. In October 2003 I had only been able to find two Edwards supporters in the whole precinct.

I remember calling my field organizer around mid-December, saying edwards was gaining strength and would probably be viable. He said, "I know." They were hearing the same thing from all of their precinct captains.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:33:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)

hey Big Tent are you still with Obama? I remember you being thrilled about him not pulling a Hillary on the drivers license issue!


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:38:28 PM EST

A weak vote for Obama (none / 0)

is where I am right now.

I think he has never looked more like a winner of this than now, thanks largely to Edwards.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:40:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A weak vote for Obama (none / 0)

Edwards has helped but I aslo think the dominant media narrative of Clinton/Obama is starting to get into Iowa caucus goers heads a bit. I think there is some segmant of Edwards support that will go to Obama because they don't want Hillary. As you say Edwards by making the case that Hillary is so bad is almost asking voters to pick Obama if they think he has a better chance to stop her. My personal opinion is Edwards kind of knows he's not going to win but owes his supporters to keep going for while, at some point I do expect and Obama endorsement.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:45:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

or since the media declared him (none / 0)

"the once and future king" a year ago...

and created this mythos about barry...

just remember ninety two - team clinton grinds out victories...

id give ya 10 to 1 odds on any bet that the Clintons win...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: or since the media declared him (none / 0)

Ah, yes... who could forget the smashing triumph that was 1994?  Or 2000, 2002, 2004...


by NicholasWalter on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:24:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: or since the media declared him (none / 0)

I think with "win" holden was referring to the nomination, not necessarily to the GE.  

However, I would submit that, unlike the years you mention, we are in a very strong position for 2008 across the board.  


by georgep on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ross Perot...??? (none / 0)


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)

He's on the Dodd Squad.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

You missed the diary in which he announced that he is no longer a Dodd supporter, and also gave up his frontpage writing role for dodd.


by georgep on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:58:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)

I see the "good" in this for Edwards.  The more it's a "two person race" in Iowa, the lower the expectations for Edwards are.  And the more likely it is that Hillary and Obama will start fighting with each other, in which case Edwards can make a real move.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:40:13 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (2.00 / 1)

You count on Hilary or Obama making the mistake Edwards made.

I do not see it.

But political consultants have proven to be idiots so it could happen.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (2.00 / 1)

The alternative is for Obama to let Edwards continue to do his dirty work by tarnishing Clinton, and then reward him with the VP slot.  Talk about a modern aday Camelot.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More like Dumb and Dumber (2.00 / 1)

talk about the blind leading the blinder. Or the blinder leading the blind, maybe, it's a toss up.
Ia may not love Clinton's politics, but at least she seems to have a grasp on how government works.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like Dumb and Dumber (none / 0)

...[she seems to have a grasp on how government works].....

Are you kidding me?  Hello..!!  Government DOESN'T work.  It is BROKEN.  Ronald Reagan began the destruction of the government in 1980 and Bush, Clinton and Bush have all nailed in the final nails into the coffin.

HRC has no clue how to fix this broken government.  Her only experience is being a part of the status quo destruction of the middle class and democracy.

Do we want ""experience" in a broken government, or "change"?

It is well past the time to demand change.


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like Dumb and Dumber (none / 0)

government does work as long as you don't have people in charge of it who hate government.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 03:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

tte big dog aint no trippi... (none / 0)


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards whole campaign was poorly executed (none / 0)

I think he is attacking the way he is largely out of machismo.  He took so many hits from all sides for letting his wife play the attack dog role early.  That and the silly haircut flap had some people questioning his manhood a bit.  

But in the end the campaign has been a mess.   It has not been coherent because he has not focused on his message as you point out.  He has allowed himself to be sidetracked again and again.

It is not surprising.  I read early on this year that some were faulting him for not learning more lessons from his '04 run.  Some said his staff then was second rate and that he again put togther a second rate staff this time around.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:40:45 PM EST

the MSM ignored any policies of his (none / 0)

first with a health care plan that Hillary adopted.

His education plan includes primary global education yet today's obama education plan is called "ambitious" - the media has never given Edwards positive coverage on anything.

e.g. NY Times front page stories  Hillary =11
       Obama = 7

Dodd =1

Edwards = 0.

when there's a media blackout for a candidate they can't run a sit-back and hope campaign


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the MSM ignored any policies of his (none / 0)

they are not ignoring him.  He has been a rather distant third for a long time. If he had done or said something they thought would sell a paper they would have made him the FP story.  

The media is not freezing Edwards out, he's just old news.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he has been running for prez for five straight (none / 0)

years now -

he really wants this!

and he is very mad that he wont get his way..

just like some of his supporters here.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:59:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and Hillary woke up in Jan. (none / 0)

and thought she wanted to be president..
come on
Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:09:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and Hillary woke up in Jan. (none / 0)

maybe not, but she hasn't parked her ass in IA since 2004.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she's spent (none / 0)

more than 3 million more than Edwards on TV ads.

Obama 4 Million more....

Edwards can't afford to spend all the money they do so he must do it in person


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she's spent (none / 0)

he didn't know he wasn't going to have that money when he parked his ass in IA in 2004.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 03:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and Hillary woke up in Jan. (none / 0)

2003


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe like Lieberman his feelings are hurt (none / 0)

I read that Joementum really struggled to comes to  grip with the fact that he woesn't going to be haned the nomination back in 2004.  He thought having been the VP candidate in '00 that he was the big dog and it was owed him, and when he didn't get support, especially from Gore, his feeling were hurt and he was angry.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (2.00 / 1)

I've seen two Edwards Iowa TV ads posted on MyDD, the "Heroes" one, and the one about what Edwards would do as president to get universal healthcare legislation moving.

I don't think either ad was a personal attack on the frontrunner.

You have compared Edwards's approach to Gephardt's against Dean. Does Edwards have some TV ads up that are attacking Sen. Clinton?


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:57:34 PM EST

missed the debates huh? (none / 0)


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: missed the debates huh? (2.00 / 1)

Which debates are you referring to?  I saw the recent Pennsylvania MS-NBC debate, and the Nevada CNN debate.

I didn't see any attacks of a personal nature. Every attack, from Clinton against her opponents, and vice versa, was about politics.

I'm sure we may interpret it differently, though. Do you have a specific example of a line or lines from these debates that you would characterize as a personal attack?


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: missed the debates huh? (none / 0)

bullshit Rob.  They were all personal.  It was all about her and her character.  
Edwards' campaign is all about Clinton, he can't get a word out that isn't in reaction to her.  She gives a speech and he gives one about hers.  He's becoming a joke.
No I am not going to go dig up quotes for you.  You will only play bullshit word games anyway.  Why should I bother?  But it is very clear that Edwards us doing two things:

1.  Attacks everything Clinton says or does and is constantly making ridiculous challenges reminiscent of Nader about questions she should answer or actions she should join him in.

2. throws a huge laundry list of promises he can't keep, something for everyone from the progressive wish list making his campaign completely unfocused.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: missed the debates huh? (2.00 / 1)

The nice thing about the internet is that it allows you to easily back up your opinions which some actual evidence.  Everybody can view the evidence you present, to judge if you really have a strong case.  "Word games" cannot beat a strong case.

Edwards has indeed set some ambitious goals, but he's also spelled each of them out with a fair amount of detail. His universal healthcare plan, just for one example, has been lauded by the widely respected economist, Paul Krugman.

I'm impressed by Democrats who express very ambitious, progressive visions. For example:

We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the Nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

...

I ask the Congress to explore the means for implementing this economic bill of rights- for it is definitely the responsibility of the Congress so to do. Many of these problems are already before committees of the Congress in the form of proposed legislation. I shall from time to time communicate with the Congress with respect to these and further proposals. In the event that no adequate program of progress is evolved, I am certain that the Nation will be conscious of the fact.

--Franklin Roosevelt

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win....

--John Kennedy

It may seem like an impossible goal to end poverty, but that's what the skeptics said about all of our other great challenges. If we can put a man on the moon, conquer polio, and put libraries of information on a chip, then we can end poverty for those who want to work for a better life.

--John Edwards


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: missed the debates huh? (none / 0)

You know, Rob, I don't think you can make those claims realistically.  It is like everybody else is wrong, Edwards (and his supporters) is right.  Maybe they are not all wrong?  I KNOW that Dodd is looking for an advantage to move up, but so is Edwards.  Dodd has called Edwards "angry" and "shrill."  Richardson has decried these attacks as overly personal, "holier than thou."   Clinton has (correctly, IMO) identified these attacks as mudslinging.    Come on, Rob, you seem like an intelligent guy.  you honestly don't see it?   Edwards hits Clinton on trustworthiness and honesty, on corruption and on  supposed shiftiness.  That is all PERSONAL stuff, not issues related.  Then his supporters pounce on it like a pound of raw meat and continue the drumbeat of she is a liar, corrupt, etc.  


by georgep on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:52:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: missed the debates huh? (none / 0)

I don't think you can make those claims realistically.

Well, I've tried to express myself cogently.  I've written a number of diaries on this subject.
I'll listen with an open mind to any actual argument that you, Bill Richardson, or anyone else presents.

Edwards has never said Sen. Clinton is corrupt or that she is a liar. In fact, on both This Week and Face the Nation, he was explicitly asked if he thinks Sen. Clinton is "corrupt", and he explicitly answered "No" and explained exactly what his position on this issue is. (I've posted his This Week quote here numerous times.)  And each time he has said he is not claiming he is pure on this issue. What he argues is that Sen. Clinton defends the current system, that she is the largest recipient of federal lobbyist funds among the candidates, and that for these reasons he believes she is not a likely agent of change on this issue. He believes reform is crucial because he argues that the big corporations influence in Washington has stymied progress in critical areas like healthcare and global warming.

You have said that supporters (I assume you mean here in the blogosphere) of John Edwards have said Clinton is a liar and that she is corrupt. They may have. That doesn't mean he did, or that he is responsible for them.  As I've often said, I don't believe the poor behavior of some folks in the blogosphere reflects on the candidates who they support. There are supporters of Hillary Clinton who have said quite awful things. I don't think it reflects poorly on her; it reflects poorly on those particular supporters.

It is true that supporters sometimes say things that are flat out false.  You yourself, for example, on more than one occasion, have stated that John Edwards has called Hillary Clinton corrupt.

I'll be happy to provide the links, if you like.

I don't hold any false statements you've made against Sen. Clinton.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 06:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's a no (none / 0)

his TV ads have been positive.

and by the way pointing out Hillary's position on Peruvian free trade is not an attack even if Holden says it is


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's a no (none / 0)

he wasn't asked about Clinton.  He took a question and turned it in to yet another chance to attack her.  He's pathetic.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the questioner specifically (none / 0)

asked about Edwards calling out Hillary for "changing" positions, edwards needed to correct the questioner that it was simultaneous "contradictory" positions that was the problem.
which by the way leads to dishonesty claims
Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

An odd dynamic in Iowa (2.00 / 1)

I think as it was pointed out above - if youre correct this has to be bad news for team Clinton, and difficult for team Obama.

Both Obama and Clinton want a situation not where they necessarily win Iowa, but where the other doesnt finish above 3rd.

Obama in 1st or 2nd in Iowa with Clinton in 3rd will propell him in NH and give him SC, as the black vote will line up 100%.

Clinton wants an Obama 3rd, even if she has to take 2nd behind Edwards.  Then shes in a better place to knock Obama out in SC and NH and can out-muscle Edwards as Obama drops.

So seeing there is no way for Richardson to jump into the top 3, or any other - I have to imagine the Obama and Clinton camps want a viable Edwards.

And I think you could very well see a negative campaign from Clinton or Obama, or at least "on behalf of."

Theres still a good deal of time for the dynamics to change, they always do.  Never underestimate the ability of Democratic consultants to lose a race!

But all things being equal, at this snapshot - I think your hypothesis has some validity.  I'd give it another week of polling following Thanksgiving.


Hoosiers for Hill -- Barack Obama
by BWasikIUgrad on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:11:33 PM EST

bingo (2.00 / 1)

premise one.

I think everyone can agree on this if Hillary wins Iowa it's over.

if you agree with this what will Obama do with 50 million bucks?

how much positive tv ads and mailings can you do?

this much money can't be spent on positive stuff alone.

Hillary does not want Obama to win Iowa (Edwards would be okay with her).

so , what happens with all the $$$?


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bingo (none / 0)

I think everyone can agree on this if Hillary wins Iowa it's over.

Nope, not me. I don't agree with this bit of CW.

I think it would be one thing if the margin of victory were very large, but in the more likely event of a close 3-way finish, I believe they all remain viable.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An odd dynamic in Iowa (none / 0)

Not sure I fully follow this. But I do think Obama would rather Clinton finish 2nd if he wins Iowa, as would Edwards, to create a 1 on 1 in NH and NV.


by desmoulins on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your analysis is BOGUS - - skewed - - biased (none / 0)

Read the internals on CBS News/NY Times poll and Wash Post/ABC News poll that have been released in November when more people are paying attention...

    Edwards scored ahead of Obama in CBS/NYT poll (23-22) and he scores especially well with poll participants who have attended previous caucuses and among second choices...

     MSNBC's analysis of the Drexel debate gave Edwards the edge over Obama in terms of sharper, harder-hitting arguments...

     Obama clearly botched the drivers' licenses for illegal immigrants question at last Thursday's debate...Matthews counted 190 words to answer a YES or NO question....amateurish answer given the whole Spitzer-Clinton hub bub in the two weeks prior...CLINTON correctly answered NO at the Vegas debate; EDWARDS answered "NO, BUT..." and babbled on about "comprehensive immigration reform" and giving licenses for those on a "pathway" to citizenship....OBAMA shucked and jived like he was DANCING BEAR on the ELLEN DEGENERES show and behaved in a most un-presidential manner in answering that question (in my humble opinion)...BIDEN NO and DODD NO and RICHARDSON YES (wrong answer) and Moonbeam KUCINICH with his framing argument resenting the use of the word "ILLEGALS" in the question....

    OBAMA has bumbled a few other questions in past debates ---- most notably the YouTube debate question about meeting without pre-conditions with dictators such as Chavez and Ahmedinejad....At the very least, he gave the GOP a smear commercial in the fall campaign with that piece of video IF the high-minded Barack-star managed to run the gauntlet and win the Donkey Party's nomination...noble, but needless...

    THIS WEEK the BARACK-star has elected to ESCALATE a PISSING MATCH with the Clintons over a tiny turd nugget from BOB NOVAK...Right now the waters are being muddied and a spectacle has been created and I'm trying to make sense of it as I'm sure a lot of would-be voters are...

    One thing is certain is that the CEMENT is not DRY on OBAMA leading in IOWA - - - it is a three-way horserace...THE CBS/NYT poll has EDWARDS ahead of OBAMA and the ABC/WAPO had EDWARDS scoring well with those who have attended previous caucuses and among second choice voters...

    MY OWN educated GUESS is that HILLARY runs hard and GOES for the KNOCKOUT in IOWA and if her pollsters tell her she can't win it, she will pull up stakes in the final days and make a STRATEGIC RETREAT to NEW HAMPSHIRE and declare herself "THE NEW COMEBACK KID" as she rolls there....

    I would point out that DEAN's collapse began around December 15, 2003 for a January 19, 2004 Iowa caucus....EDWARDS was in low single digits in IOWA in late December of 2003 and rose to second place and 32 percent in the final three weeks...

     The Dec. 3rd DES MOINES REGISTER debate is the next BIG EVENT that could/will scramble the race as I see it....Both CBS/NYT and ABC/WaPo show close to 50+ percent still not firm in their choice...I saw 10 percent UNDECIDED on CBS/NYT poll but did not see a similar designation on ABC/WAPO poll...

      This is just a hunch, but I think the late-emerging hard-charger could be JOE BIDEN...he was sharp in both the DREXEL and VEGAS debates and he oozes common sense on all things foreign policy related...I realize he has no money compared to the others but I have seen his support level has doubled since JULY...I think Richardson has revealed himself to be a "blocking back" of sorts for CLINTON and could fade ---- I think BIDEN could charge hard late and Richardson fading...

     EDWARDS is not out of it by any means --- Hillary has been the biggest LOSER in the past few weeks without a doubt ---- There will be no coronation to be sure....


by Progressive Populist on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:31:16 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)


by Progressive Populist on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:31:40 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (2.00 / 2)

Whats interesting about this line of argument -- that Edwards is "attacking" Hillary -- is that its the msm narrative. Do a Google News search and all the stories begin "Edwards hits Clinton ..." but look at his Iowa speeches, ads or go to an event, and Edwards spends almost no time talking about Clinton and most of it talking about his priorities and proposals. If you look at his communication with early state voters -- the ads, the policy brochure, the website -- its long on his values and policies, not "attacks."

This line is being pushed, hard, by Clinton because they want to neutralize Edwards' attempts to highlight his policy differences from Clinton. The most impt statistic in the WaPo ABC poll yesterday was the very high % (.over 2/3) fo caucus goers who have seen a candidate speak or visited a candidate website -- and they were looking first for policy ideas, not experience or personal attributes.


by desmoulins on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:58:51 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (2.00 / 1)

Look he can try something big and different that is POSITIVE to his message and also some level of unity messaging for the DEMS in the next few weeks.  That is the best approach for him....

A unifying message without too many attacks and he may just stand a chance.

Otherwise his continuing, vitriolic attacks will just be another series of mistakes he has made since 2002...!!!!

He hrdly praises anybody....(just some unions)..  People don't like to be told they are stupid and dishonest etc..

He has in fact told all the federal govt and even some local ones that they are all corrupt!


by pate on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:04:23 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)

He is in as much trouble as Kerry was in late November '03 expect about 15 points better off.


by conspiracy on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:21:18 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)

Except


by conspiracy on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 02:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTD, I think you're way off base here (2.00 / 1)

I am going to write a diary in response to your arguments over the next couple of days. I don't have time right now to hit all of the important points, and I haven't even started writing my front-page post for Edwards today.

Short version: I think you are incorrect about the reasons Gephardt lost in Iowa, and I think you are incorrect about the message Iowans are getting from Edwards. Caucus-goers have gotten three direct-mail pieces from Edwards in the last month, all positive. Thousands of undecided Democrats got an 80-page policy book from the Edwards campaign over the past weekend. Iowans are also now seeing positive tv ads by Edwards.

On the blogs it seems like all Edwards is doing is attacking Hillary, but that is far from the sole message Iowans are getting from Edwards lately.

Frankly, I am much more worried about Biden and Richardson gaining and becoming viable in a significant number of precincts than I am worried about Obama rising because Edwards is perceived as too negative.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:37:06 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)

What's weird is that on the Rasmussen daily, Edwards was adding support about two weeks ago- he was going up to 16, 17, and even 18 percent one day- I'm a realist and he was sustaining that so it told me he was picking up support- it was consecutive so it seemed he had to be- but then a couple of days BEFORE the debate, he started dropping again and he's now back to the pre-pickup so somehow he lost the little support he had gained.  It couldn't have been the debate because it started happening before the debate aired.  I can see no scenario where he can win at this point.  His disastrous debate performance was like a 'gift from heaven' to us Hillary supporters not because we were worried he might win but because it seemed he was finally getting his comeuppance.


by reasonwarrior on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 08:04:35 PM EST

Re: Why Edwards Is In Trouble In Iowa (none / 0)

The bottom-line of Iowa right now is that the contest is fluid enough that either one of the top three can win.

Edwards decided to attack Hillary in the press (which is fundamentally different from running negative attack TV ads, I'd argue) for three reasons: 1)Obama wasn't doing it and someone needed to start blunting Hillary's momentum; 2)to win press attention by shaking up the coverage status-quo which was writing him out of the baseline narrative; 3) to compete for anti-Hillary voters disappointed with Obama

As I said before, delivering criticism of a rival through the press is less about winning over voters and more influencing the press. The average voter in Iowa is picking up on less of this than they would be if Edwards were running hard negative ads against Hillary.

Nothing Edwards has done so far will compare to the nuclear exchange between the Hillary and Obama camps in the next four weeks. And it will come. Obama 100% absolutely cannot allow Hillary to win the Iowa caucuses. The same goes in reverse for Clinton's campaign. Both can tolerate an Edwards victory. Ultimately, if pushed to the wall, one will attempt the throw the #1 spot in the caucuses to Edwards if it will prevent the other from winning.


by blueflorida on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 01:31:32 PM EST

I totally agree (none / 0)

I predict an assault by Clinton surrogates on Obama's electability.

Also, I suspect that behind the scenes the Clinton and Obama precinct captains will be instructed to do whatever they can to deprive the main rival of delegates.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 02:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.