The Gender Card

OK, I'll bite...

So did Hillary Clinton play the gender card? And if so does it matter? I've got to agree with Ezra that anyone who claims she "played the gender card," with all that that phrase connotes, during her appearance at Wellesley College yesterday doth protest a bit too much.

Clinton, speaking to her alma mater, said, "In so many ways, this all-women's college prepared me to compete in the all-boys club of presidential politics." That's the only invocation of gender since the debate. And to me, it sounds like nothing more interesting than alumni puffery. She didn't say the "boys" were beating up on her for being a woman. She didn't say the questions were unfair or the attacks sexist. She just said that her alma mater helped prepare her to enter this world. That's not making this about gender. It's mentioning gender, and pumping up her college.

And as far as calling the election an "all-boys club" goes, that seems unambiguously true. In a nation that's more than 50 percent female, where women made up 54 percent of the electorate in 2004, exactly one out of the 17 candidates currently vying for the presidency is female. But what we're upset about is that Hillary Clinton mentioned that fact? The men doth protest too much, methinks...

But that's not to say that she hasn't played it at all. Look at the "Politics of Pile On" fund-raising ask the Clinton campaign sent out yesterday.

On that stage in Philadelphia, we saw six against one. Candidates who had pledged the politics of hope practiced the politics of pile on instead. Her opponents tried a whole host of attacks on Hillary.

She is one strong woman. She came through it well. But Hillary's going to need your help.

Between this e-mail and the video that they released to go with it, there does seem to be a definite effort to use the debate and the imagery of 6 men going after one woman in order to evoke sympathy for Clinton among women. As Carla Marinucci said on Hardball last night:

That is smart, because every woman listening and watching that debate, by the way, has seen this movie before.  Whether it`s in the board room, the news room, the class room, or sitting around the dining room table with your brothers, a woman against a whole team of guys.

Look, this doesn`t mean she gets a pass just because she`s wearing a skirt.  She`s got to be a strong candidate on every level.  But I think that this is a smart strategy for her.

Of course, it's a risky strategy too, as it casts men as the villain and risks alienating male voters. But as Chris Cillizza pointed out on Hardball, that's a risk they're willing to take because using this to increase support among women is a winner in the Democratic primary in which 60% of voters are women. If they need to win some men back, they'll cross that general election bridge when they come to it.

But Cillizza made another good point last night, which was that the very fact that we're talking about the whole gender card issue is an indication of the extent to which the Clinton camp has actually won the post-debate PR war. They wanted to change the topic away from her double talk and away from drivers licenses for illegal immigrants. Mission accomplished.

John Edwards, for his part, is doing his darnedest to change it back.



Display:


Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

You're absolutely wrong. There's no double talk in drivers' license issue. Clinton stands by her position at a news conference.

Silly stuff...


by prisonbreak on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:37:47 PM EST

Which position? n/t (2.00 / 1)


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes AND No is not a position. (2.00 / 1)

cFrom NBC/NJ's Tricia Miller
Cheraw, SC -- Campaigning here this morning, Edwards decried "the politics of double-speak" he said was displayed in Tuesday night's debate in Philadelphia.

"Now I have a really simple rule," he said. "When you get asked a yes-or-no question, you can't answer it yes-and-no. That doesn't work, and we saw some of that the other night."
"What I heard was Sen. Clinton saying she wanted to be for change, but defending a broken system in Washington," he continued. "Saying that she wanted to end the war, but she would keep combat troops in Iraq who would continue combat missions in Iraq. Saying that she would stand up to George Bush on the issue of going to war in Iran, but voting for a resolution in the Senate that enabled George Bush to do exactly what he wanted to do. Saying that she didn't want to change anything about Social Security in public, but then in private saying she might be for raising the cap on the Social Security tax. See, my view is, we need to say the same thing all the time."

The Edwards campaign released a video -- entitled the "Politics of Parsing" -- hitting Clinton on the same point.



by TomP on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes AND No is not a position. (none / 0)

Bill Richardson is right.  A "holier-than-thou" posture.  Bizarre.  I've seen Edwards several times hedge on a simple YES and NO question in previous debates, so what he says in that statement amounts to fudging the truth.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes AND No is not a position. (2.00 / 1)

Just because Clizzia thinks the post-debate is about the gender card does not mean it is so.  Heck, he thought Clinton did okay during the debate. His political antenna are not that great.  Unless I have missed something --- everyone is talking about the driver's license issue not the poor me the men are mean to me bit.  I did not see the Comedy Channel talk about it.  Heck, the whole gender card did not even enter the conversation until today.


by True Independent on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes AND No is not a position. (none / 0)

John Edwards decries everything -- instead of telling us what he will do he seems to be annoyed at what everyone else does.  If the Senate is so bad why didn't he stick around and fix it?  Whenever 6 men gang up on one woman it looks bad.  Especially when the 6 men are losing to the one woman.  


by changingroom on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:05:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes AND No is not a position. (none / 0)

Edwards is becoming pathetic.  He is so desperate for an issue.  After the debate he and all the other candidates agreed with Hillary on the Driver's License issue.


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 02:35:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (1.87 / 8)

Clinton Aids admit to using gender as a distraction from double talking

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2007/1 1/02/playing_the_gender_card_is_part_of_ clinton_strategy.html

Aides to Sen. Hillary Clinton told the Associated Press that there is "a clear and long-planned strategy to fend off attacks by accusing her male rivals of gathering against her. The idea is to change the subject while making Clinton a sympathetic figure, especially among female voters who often feel outnumbered and bullied on the job."


by jsamuel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:39:57 PM EST

you need video evidence (2.00 / 1)

these days ,


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

I don't know if that is true or false, but it comes from an AP piece that is anti-Hillary to an absurd degree.  I mean, it reads like a diary on this site.

Personally, I find it really hard to believe that that quote represents an accurate paraphrase, since it's a ridiculously negative piece of strategy for an aide to dish about their own campaign.

However, I know this much: we cannot afford another election where the Republican nominee runs a tight ship and our own candidate's campaign leaks like a sieve with all sorts of self-destructive information.  If that's really an accurate representation of what someone said to the press, there's some smack that has to be laid down.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

We lost because of triangulation- the centralizing force of Clinton's strategy this time. If you want to argue about what we can't afford- t ry the underlying forces that lead to the decline of the party and its nominees throughout the 1990s and earlier part of this decade.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Would you not say that 6 men on one woman is a bit much?  Would they have attacked her if she was not in the lead?  There is a reason why they have been careful about doing it until now -- it gets women's backs up and it doesn't work.  New Rasmussen Poll which came out about the Debate shows Hillary gained 5 points on Obama while he lost 7 points.  


by changingroom on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

She is a woman -- I think we all noticed that.  


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 02:36:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (1.81 / 11)

Check this out...

Aides to Sen. Hillary Clinton told the Associated Press that there is "a clear and long-planned strategy to fend off attacks by accusing her male rivals of gathering against her. The idea is to change the subject while making Clinton a sympathetic figure, especially among female voters who often feel outnumbered and bullied on the job."

This is shameful in my opinion, and if she's expecting my sympathy, as a woman, for falsely playing the role of victim, she has sadly miscalculated.


by sirius on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:40:39 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (1.20 / 5)

Nobody is playing for your sympathy. Nobody is trying to curry favor of a Hillary hater. You're overestimating your power. lol.


by prisonbreak on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Hello????? Hillary is the first woman to run for the Presidency and you think its odd that her campaign has a strategy to fend off attacks like the 6 guys tried at the Debate?  Don't you think Obama has a strategy to fend off remarks about his being the first serious African American Candidate to run for the Presidency?  


by changingroom on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 1)

actually it reminds of the days when I used to be a single woman in a meeting at work... the jokes, comments, insinuations etc....

What it does, regardless of the consequences on any candidate, serve as a chapter/moment of how things are done/were done in a "men/boys only club"

That debate will be used as a lesson in future politics..  

And if you were to put up  a series of comments, add inn moments like Edwards "i do not like that jacket"  in  a previous moment...it says a lot...

 


by pate on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:40:46 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 1)

This is what people don't get.  They think somehow women are only worked up because Hillary went and played the "gender card" after the debate.  They don't get that what took place on that stage was an unmistakably familiar dynamic to any woman who's tried to go it alone in a man's world.

And of course they weren't targeting Hillary because she's a woman.  That's not the point.  The point is that a lot of women can empathize with the scenario.

Obama mentioned that he didn't play the "race card" when he was attacked during a previous debate.  Well, there certainly is a narrative familiar to any black person who's worked in an all-white environment, but it's a different narrative.  If he had tried to imply that he was only criticized because he was black, most black people would have gone "huh?"


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

She will turn off as many women as she will gain. If you haven't noticed, we are beyond the 1960s and 70s where it was simple enough to raise the spectator and women would fall into line. If anything, the most offensive part to all of this is the set of assumptions that all of you are making about women.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:59:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 1)

"She will turn off as many women as she will gain."

You are speculating with no shred of any proof whatsoever.  Looks like mere wishful thinking to me.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:09:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Actually the shred of proof is actually bothering to know and talk to women who aren't vested partisans such as those who inhabit this site.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:10:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 1)

"the shred of proof is actually bothering to know and talk to women" -

 This is getting interesting.  You are actually making your point, which has not proof attached to it, is all SERIOUSNESS based on anecdotal evidence of you "knowing and talking to" women in your area, circle of acquaintances, friends etc.   THAT is your proof?

 To call this "thin" would be an insult to "thin."  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

should have read:

...which has no proof attached to it, in all SERIOUSNESS...


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

I am making  my point about as well as you. Namely that you are basing a lot of a set of assumitipns- ie, your argument depends on all women thinking a like- or else you wouldn't assume clinton would draw them to her with her use of gender. My counter is that is bogus because all women don't think alike. I will  leave it to others to figure out which of us actually in our estimation respects women versus treat them like just their gender.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

We have a lot of data points available to us which show us where the woman vote goes at the moment.  Shown are candidate preferences parsed by gender, then crosstabbed by party affiliation.  We have a pretty good idea that AS OF TODAY there are more women FOR Clinton than are against her.  In fact, there is a strong preference for her, both when you look at numbers amongst Democrats and an overall sample (Democrats, Independents, Republicans.)    Those are current numbers, and there are plenty of polls to give us a relatively true picture.   That means in no way that things could not change in the future, of course.

Now, given the data points we have seen, don't you agree that those have a much stronger position of being right and showing us a relatively good picture of where women are at the moment (as for candidate preferences) than your, mine, Oprah's, my wife's, Steve's wife's personal circle of friends, acquaintances, colleagues at work or school, etc.?  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

New Rasmussen Poll just out says different.  Hillary picked up 5% Obama lost 7% and Edwards gained 2%.  


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 02:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

If you understand this issue in generation terms, what she is doing is shooting herself in the foot amongst alot of non partisans. My friends who work their asses off to get to where they are, don't take well to the "I am defenseless woman" argument. I have one friend who really, really gets pissed when she sees this even when it comes to things like coworkers pretending t hey can't figure something out and having the guy do it for them. Sure it may play well with the older set but with her- this shit will just piss her off. Almost every woman I know below 40 doesn't like this type of personality that clinton is now using- and these are career womens with kids, etc. so you can think its wishful thinking or once again lkke the other things you dismiss and then use (remember your claim that favorables don't matter until of course you thought it was an advantage), you can admit that this is more complicated than just assign identity and expecting women to fall into line.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Well, if you think Hillary is trying to portray herself as a defenseless woman, go nuts with that argument, I guess.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Steve- as I have said a million times at this point, you ability  to discern anything that's not literal approaches zero. Too often, your arguments have no sense of context, implied actions,e tc. Of course, she will never say what you wrote. But then that's a silly argument on its face in politics. Bush never said Saddam was behind 9/11. Yet his followers believe that he did because of his effective implication of that point. By your estimation- because he never said it directly- then it never was something he intended his followers to believe.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:23:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

It's as though I didn't even use the word "portray."  In your mind, you replaced the point I made with the nonsensical claim "Hillary never explicitly said she was a defenseless woman," and then ably rebutted it.  I find it very difficult to have a discussion with you because so seldom do you respond to my actual point.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

a now is where you become legalistic. i am addressing the underlying logic and assumptions of your statements. if you are confused it's because we are talking on two different levels. you are focused on your word choice, and I am looking at your core set of assumptions.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Since you enjoy making up the "underlying logic and assumptions" of my statements, please feel free to make up the rest of the debate and declare yourself the winner.  It's silly for me to keep posting when you never address what I say.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

how exactly am i making up things steve. so far all you have given me is claiming that i dont get your argument. what about your argument don't i get? what's silly is for you to claim someone doesn't understand you when in fact what started this was your response to me. and let's be clear- there are really only two choices here- either one believes clinton is using gender or not. that's the subject of the diary. if you aren't talking about that- then you are right- i dont know what you are saying, but what i am then sure of is that it would have nothing to do with what i posted or this diary.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Sigh.   Maybe it really IS your inability to see the other's point of view that is creating these tangles?  I remember several such exchanges I had with you in the past, and it is frustrating to not get anywhere with you in terms of an understanding that while opinions differ there is not always a right or wrong answer, just opinions that differ.  It is no biggie when they do differ.  They just do.  Indeed, that is part of the fun of it, to discuss things with people who don't necessarily are right there with you on everything.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

no one is buying this george but feel free to continue to spin. at this point it only reinforces the point.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

"spin" what?  I am seeing how you choose to engage with multiple posters.  I was just commenting on that and was giving friendly advice.  Where is that "spin"?  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Bruh you don't like Hillary -- you won't like Hillary no matter what she says or does.  However, unlike you I see women under 40 whose homes are in foreclosure -- they worked hard and played by the rules and now they have to declare bankruptcy.  I see women who have to give up healthcare for themselves because they cannot afford healthcare for their sick kid otherwise.  People want to be heard -- for the last several years these people were invisible to Bush and now they have had enough. They would vote for a Gorilla if it had empathy.  


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 02:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

More than half this country is women.  More women vote then men.  More women handle the money and find that lately there isn't enough to get by.  They are sick of a macho cowboy who is afraid of horses.  We elect our presidents based on the last president and this one is a real pip.  Just this week he vetoed the expansion of children's healthcare and when he said the word children he practically hissed it. This doesn't sit well with women but it doesn't sit well with men either.  Hillary talks about the bread and butter issues that families care about.  Once again Republicans want to have a wedge issue because they don't care about the real issues people are facing.  This time its not working.


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 02:45:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Here is a cyber enema. Because you are so completely full of shit!


If it's good enough for Joey it's good enough for Hillary! Like two peas in a pod.
by Hillary Lieberman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

So she can't play with the big boy's and if they even question her double talk she has to complain thatr they are picking on me because I am a women.

I thought she was tough. These past couple of days shows to me that she is a wimp.


by BDM on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 3)

Edward's comment in the debate, "I'm not sure about that jacket", was a joke made in answer to the question, "what do you not like about the candidate to your left?.."  Her jacket was pretty, and I thought it was very clear that he was making a little joke. Some bloggers have twisted around the context in which he made the remark in an effort to make Edwards look bad.


by bettync on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

I didn't find that offensive either.  I would be surprised to learn that Hillary found it inappropriate.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

She smiled, and it wasn't a smirk or pained smile, either.  So, no way did she take offense to that little ribbing.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:07:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

If anyone wants to see how this country has changed toward women in the work place they need only to watch the Mary Tyler Moore Show to see what the workplace was like in the early 70's and perhaps it hasn't changed all that much. Sorry but 6 men on one woman still looks like a gang bang to me.  If Hillary becomes President the next woman running will not have to go through this. Why are we so damn backward in this country?  We all know how two macho guys have run this country into the ground -- lets try a woman for a change.


by changingroom on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:21:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

And also show that classic Edwards combing his hair as a side to his saying "not like the jacket", he is showing what is acceptable in his arena vs. women doing the same....

Obama comes out OK in this but Edwards looks crazy.....


by pate on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:43:27 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

I am not a fan of Obama but he did come off better than Edwards on thisl


by changingroom on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No offense, but accusing the first (2.00 / 1)

woman front-runner in a presidential primary of "playing the gender card" is just plain stupid.  It would be like if Hillary accused Obama of "playing the race card" after his gospel tour in SC.  It's offensive.

I do love how white men(not you Todd, this was a pretty good post)like to talk about the "gender card" and the "race card".  It's the absolute height of irony.


by bookgrl on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:47:49 PM EST

Re: No offense, but accusing the first (none / 0)

yes, because that's never happened. Black candidate using race inappropriately to carry favor in a race. Make your arguments, but let's not use one that is on its face false. And if you care to claim its just your opinion, I got multiple facts to demonstrate how your opinion is just plain factually false.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:02:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No offense, but accusing the first (none / 0)

I'm unhappy with a lot of the feminizing rhetoric I've seen since the debate, suggesting that Hillary was "crying" and such.  I mean, even her detractors can acknowledge that Hillary is a tough customer.  I don't think they realize how bad that kind of talk comes across.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No offense, but accusing the first (none / 0)

And when they called Edwards a whiner - or called Obama names was that also due to race or gender?


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No offense, but accusing the first (none / 0)

As usual, you're great at putting arguments in my mouth and then answering them.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No offense, but accusing the first (none / 0)

No Steve- I am great at looking at the wider implications of your argument. If you are going to make a claim that somehow the language here has special meaning- then yes, I am going to look at  the wider context to ask if that is indeed true.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Her campaign admits it (2.00 / 1)

if you don't like it, talk to them.


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No they don't. (2.00 / 1)

Some unnamed "advisor" is making this claim.  


by bookgrl on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

what advisor in politics would ever go one record, and if they weren't an advisor, this is something that is easily verifiable by the reporter. is your basic point each time- that you don't believe what you are being told?


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

Given that the NY Times called Plame betrayer and Cheney Chief of Staff Lewis Libby a "former Hill staffer" I don't think you can draw any conclusions from what famously anti-Hillary reporter Ron Fournier calls an "adviser" in the AP, nor can you put much stock in his reporting when he doesn't even quote these supposed "advisers". These people could easily be former Clinton administration advisers who now work for Obama.


by souvarine on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

Can you give some background on Fournier's reporting on the Clintons?  I mean, when I read that today, it sounded like a guy with an axe to grind, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions.

Here are some quotes from the "article" that everyone is taking as gospel truth regarding Hillary's campaign strategy:

Clinton's rivals for the Democratic nomination seized on her refusal to give straight answers about Social Security, immigration, her White House-era documents and other important issues. They hope to further the perception that she is slippery and overly political.

Rather than rebut her rivals' charges or confront the issues with facts and details, Clinton accused her rivals of ganging up on her.

And this isn't her first rodeo. Remember, it was Clinton who defined and defied the "vast right-wing conspiracy," and who lashed out -- or piled on -- critics of her health care reform efforts in the early 1990s.

She has an alternative to the risky piling-on defense. Clinton could undercut her rivals' criticism by simply coming clean on more issues.

This would probably fit right in as a diary here at MyDD, but for an article - purporting to inform us what Hillary's aides said about her strategy - it's laughably non-objective.

I can only assume, when people quote the Hill piece as gospel, they don't realize it's not a quote, but an unattributed paraphrase contained within a blatantly anti-Hillary column.  I take this guy's word for it like I take Judith Miller's word on Iraq.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:45:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

Every Fournier piece I've seen since I started following the election closely in February has been strongly negative towards Hillary Clinton.

I believe I've read them all since I have the AP newswire as the home page in my browser.


by hwc on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (2.00 / 1)

Since the tagline on the article says he's been reporting on the Clintons for 20 years I assumed there was some dark history.  I mean, he sounds like he just got off work at the American Spectator.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:01:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

I don't have chapter and verse on him, I read a blog post on him a bit ago I'm trying to dig up. He followed the Clintons for the AP since 1990, to be fair he was not fooled by the Whitewater smear and Bill Clinton has praised him in the past. He does not appear to be particularly fair to Hillary Clinton.


by souvarine on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

If you search for his name on this page you'll find a classic of the genre.

I don't particularly need to know the guy's history but I was just curious if you had something.  I mean, today's piece pretty much speaks for itself.  If it hadn't been excerpted in the Hill as though it were a straight AP article, I don't know who would take it seriously.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

It is an AP piece, which carries some weight (lots of circulation,) even if it ends up amounting to a biased hit-piece.   I guess this is a good test of the allmighty power of the MSM, since they have really pulled out all the stops on this one.  

Tarheel better not claim that the media is all gung-ho pro-Clinton 24/7 while giving Edwards the shaft ever again.  That dog won't hunt after this week.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

Any article that questions Clinton's answers which appear critical mean's that they are Clinton hater's.

That is what Georgep and HWC ALWAY'S SAY. sHE CAN DO NO WRONG SHE WALKS ON WATER,

Try being objective for once. I know you have a lot of emotional energy invested in her candidacy.

You would have more credibility if you at times would admit some of her mistakes.


by BDM on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:46:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

How about if you read the AP piece for yourself and tell me if you think it sounds fair and objective to you.  Just click here.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:55:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

Honestly, BDM, I have found you to be one of the least objective posters on this entire site.  Over time your assurances that Clinton was going to crater on the strength of a couple book releases, something she said, something that was said in a debate, have become quite legendary.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:09:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

People who like Hillary are objective I have to wonder why Republicans need to destroy her.  I guess it could be because she will slow the destruction of the middle class which they have worked so hard to achieve.  Peace, Prosperity and a balanced budget--O My God can't have that!  Lets have a new wedge issue.  She's a woman--she might not go along with WW3 -- stop her now. The tune has been played time and time again whenever Republicans run for office.  Been there done that.


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 03:10:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

so your thesis is that he or she hates clinton?


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

I have no idea how he feels about Hillary Clinton. Anonymous sources should always be suspect and are often self-serving and deliberately misleading about their loyalties. Ron Fournier's "On Deadline" column in the AP is opinion, not reportage, and in this column he is clearly on a mission to attack Hillary Clinton. Given all of that I doubt he is accurately reporting the plans of the Hillary Clinton campaign.


by souvarine on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they don't. (none / 0)

I am inclined to agree except this is corraborate my other circumstantial evidence suggesting that what he says in the article is true. You would have a better position were this the only strain. The kind of position wherein one will wait for the candidate to admit this sort of thing or have an open statement isn't going to happen. Not at least in politics.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No offense, but accusing the first (none / 0)

Book -- too right -- its like they look for a candidate thats different and then they wait for that one word so they can play the race or gender card against them.  Why are there no white Jerry Falwell cards?


by changingroom on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Her own campaign admits she played it (2.00 / 7)

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2007/1 1/02/playing_the_gender_card_is_part_of_ clinton_strategy.html

Aides to Sen. Hillary Clinton told the Associated Press that there is "a clear and long-planned strategy to fend off attacks by accusing her male rivals of gathering against her. The idea is to change the subject while making Clinton a sympathetic figure, especially among female voters who often feel outnumbered and bullied on the job."

AP has more:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071101/ap_p o/on_deadline_clinton_1


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:53:05 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 3)

She referred to the females there as "women" and she referred to her male competitors for the Presidential nomination as "boys." It doesn't get much clearer than this.


If it's good enough for Joey it's good enough for Hillary! Like two peas in a pod.
by Hillary Lieberman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:22:38 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 1)

Maybe we mean two different things when we say "gender card."  I mean, considering her campaign theme is "let's make history," it's hardly a new development that she's trying to use her gender as an asset in the campaign.

To me, the "gender card" means that you're suggesting "they're only picking on me because I'm a girl."  I don't see that going on here.  Everyone knows she gets attacked because she's the front-runner.  Oh, and every front-runner complains about being piled on.

Now, as for the kitchen comment, of course that was a gender reference.  To be honest, I thought it was deliciously knife-twisting.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

This would be an example of  the set of assumptions that you make that I am referring to above.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:30:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

She is using being a woman to get elected?  Gosh I didn't know she was a woman--I am shocked shocked shocked.  I hate to say this but you are laughable.  


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 03:15:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Quite frankly you don't have the capacity to understand what I wrote. Try reading it again without your Hillary blinders on. The point is obvious to anyone.


If it's good enough for Joey it's good enough for Hillary! Like two peas in a pod.
by Hillary Lieberman on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 07:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

60% of the voters in this country are women. The fact that Hillary is a woman when the current cowboy President is at 24% cannot be overlooked. It also doesn't hurt her that she is a Clinton.  When Bill Clinton left office 70% of Iranians had a positive view of the USA.  That number is down to 15% now.  When we had a Clinton in office we had 4% unemployment, consumer confidence was at record highs.  We were a nation at peace. While the current President is now talking about WW3 does it surprise you that people want a woman President who will says she will listen to experts and do everything in her power to avoid war?  Diplomacy is cheaper and longer lasting than bombs. In 10 years if we continue the war in Iraq we will have spent 2 Trillion for this oil war while experts predict the world's oil supply will run out in 20 years. Makes no sense to me.

I am for Hillary because when your house is on fire you call a fire fighter.  Her Foreign Policy team would be ready on day one to put this fire out. The seasoned professionals that she can call on can and will do the job. The reason that WW3 has been avoided for so long is that NOBODY WINS.      


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 12:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

If Hillary was truly against more war she would have apologized for her vote to start the war with Iraq and actually admit that she made a frickin mistake. And she would state explicitly that she would get ALL of our troops out of Iraq during her first year as President regardless of the circumstances. I repeat: ALL of our troops out of Iraq within the first year of her Administration. If she would make this vow alone and actually mean it without caveats I would support her candidacy.


If it's good enough for Joey it's good enough for Hillary! Like two peas in a pod.
by Hillary Lieberman on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 01:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Perhaps you don't know who co-sponsored the Bill which got us into war with Iraq--John Edwards. Hillary said that knowing what she knows now she would never have voted yes on that bill. Thats good enough for me.  

If Hillary is the nominee would you vote Republican?  They want more wars and say they will attack any country which attacks Israel which has not been our Foreign Policy until now.  The Middle East is a tinder box and the Republicans want to light the match because of this idiotic messianic ideology.  The Republican candidates also want to privatize all healthcare.  That means that all 300 Million Americans would have to find their own health insurance without any guarantee that they will be able to buy insurance with pre-existing conditions. In other words, no more employer based healthcare.  

So before you start attacking someone that could be the nominee of the Democratic Party think what the Republicans are offering --  I will vote for any Democrat who wins the nomination.


by changingroom on Sun Nov 04, 2007 at 01:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

I don't need to be lectured by you or anyone else about who I should vote for. I get a little sick hearing shit like this where if you don't support Clinton you must support the Republicans.


If it's good enough for Joey it's good enough for Hillary! Like two peas in a pod.
by Hillary Lieberman on Sun Nov 04, 2007 at 09:10:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Perhaps you think what I wrote was a lecture because you have considered the same things yourself. Every single Republican Candidate supports more wars and every single Republican Candidate supports the privatization of all healthcare in this country.  I join with the 70% of Americans who believe this country is headed in the wrong direction.  


by changingroom on Sun Nov 04, 2007 at 01:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

The interesting thing here is with all these "attacks" and "pile on" my mother now wants Clinton's to win and to "kick their asses."

So, on one hand we could have a positive effect. On the other, not so much. Time will tell.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:56:51 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

This really turned my wife of and she was leaning towards Clinton and is now un-decided.


by BDM on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Either you are lying now or you were lying a little while back.  When you had a particularly angry comment aimed at Clinton (something she said that incensed you to no end) you stated that you AND nobody in your family would ever vote for Clinton.    Please don't try the "My wife loved her before and now she hates her" routine.  Coming from you it is as hilarious as it is transparent.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:12:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Thats wonderful -- God bless her.


by changingroom on Sun Nov 04, 2007 at 01:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 3)

The gender card has been played -- perhaps not by the other candidates -- but by the media and in a certain type of attack on her -- the use of gendered words like "shrill" and "cackle" come immediately to mind.

Gender is a strong undercurrent in this nomination fight; and so is race.

Opponents and their surrogates sometimes are subtle, sometimes not, but it is there.

And the proponents use both gender and race as positives -- also sometimes subtly, sometimes not so much. Clinton's story about 90 year old women coming up to her to say "I was born before women got the vote, and I hope I live long enough to see a woman president" is a fairly clear use of gender. It certainly appeals to me, as a woman.

And I don't like to see a group of men, including the moderators ganging up on a solo woman. There are lots of negative associations brought up by that image. So if I were a male candidate, I'd think long and hard about pushing this narrative too far. You risk the chance of alienating some women on a subliminal level. We are after all, in some degree, captives of our history - no matter what the surface text.

I find this debate over the debate interesting from a sociological point of view, and I'm curious to see how it will play out in the next few months.

One thing is certain, whoever wins the nomination is going to have to fight like hell against every dirty trick in the book. So one of Hillary's jobs if she wants to win the presidency is to be able to successfully navigate this treacherous territory.


by Coral on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:01:50 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Coral -- right--there is blowback when something like this is taken too far.  I remember when the Democratic Senators were asking hard questions at the Clarence Thomas nomination.  He said this is like a High Tech lynching. And he became our Supreme Ct. Justice.  Outside of the media and a few professional Clinton haters the rest of the country has a natural empathy with the underdog. Russert and Matthews shouldn't take this too far or they risk exactly what they fear A Clinton Presidency.


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 03:24:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

I agree with salient point made earlier.  To paraphrase: Of course HRC wasn't attack on account of being a woman, but women may identify with situation.  To paraphrase again: she's pulling heartstrings.

Which is fine, I think.  Equally fine, and the only responsible reply, is drawing attention to the tactic.  

That said, my personal prediction is that that's too complicated a leap for the MSM to bother documenting or explaining.  They're much more comfortable with the gut than the brain.  

Edwards's ad and HRC's will duke it out.  Victory Edwards, but only by a nose.


by infinitejest on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:09:59 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (2.00 / 1)

Of course, Clinton's campaign strategy includes appealing to women voters. They are 60% of the primary electorate and 54% of the general election voters. Electing the first woman President is a big deal on an emotional and symbolic level (forget "issues", we are talking a "Morning in America" emotional level). Clinton would be a fool not to capitalize on her natural base. As Mark Penn said, "When was the last time you had a majority of the electorate never having elected one of their own?"

What we are seeing is not Hillary suddenly playing the "gender card", but the guys in the race realizing that Clinton's strong support among women puts them in a deep electoral hole. Obama is desperately trying to neutralize "gender" as an issue in the election, so he's trying to somehow make it wrong for Clinton to appeal to women voters. He's playing the reverse gender-card.

Is Clinton using her gender an advantage fair to the guys in the race? Maybe not. But, I didn't hear the guys complaining about fairness when they nominated nothing but men for the first 230 years of the American Presidency. I didn't hear them complaining about fairness when they prohibited women from even voting until just 80 years ago.

BTW, here's a "gender" quote from Hillary's speech at Wellesley yesterday. Mull this one over and get back to me on how Hillary Clinton shouldn't play the gender card:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/02/us/pol itics/02clinton.html?_r=2&ref=politi cs&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Mrs. Clinton described her four undergraduate years here in the late 1960s as among the most "exhilarating and formative" of her life, but added that "when I came to Wellesley, I never in a million years could have imagined I would one day return as a candidate for the presidency of the United States." She emphasized that "back then, women weren't always taken seriously."

Mrs. Clinton recounted how she had been admitted to both Harvard and Yale Law Schools and was at a Harvard cocktail reception for prospective students when she was introduced to a famous law school professor.

"One of my friends said, `Professor So-and-So, this is Hillary Rodham, she's trying to decide between us and our nearest competitor,'" Mrs. Clinton said. "And he looked down at me, and he said: `Well, first, we don't have a nearest competitor. And secondly, we don't need any more women.'"

There were loud gasps from the audience.



by hwc on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:11:27 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Well, your first sentence is true...you bit.  It's ridiculous, 6 men didn't pile on 1 woman, it was 6 people who didn't vote for the Iran bill piled on the one who did.  


by Piuma on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 06:54:42 PM EST

Re: The Gender Card (none / 0)

Obama was absent the day the Kyl-Lieberman bill was voted on perhaps because earlier in the year he co-sponsored a bill which would have given Bush the right to attack Iran.  Edwards was not in the Senate but when he was he co-sponsored a bill which enabled Bush to attack Iraq.  Kucinich doesn't need to attack anyone because he is a happy man.

Obama tried having his wife attack Hillary and so did Edwards but the polls have not moved in 8 months.  They are desperate men who can't believe that Hillary is beating them by 30 points. So now the truth comes out -- she is a woman.    


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 03:40:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

After hearing the traditional media coin and then spread their, "Hillary stumbled" meme all freaking week I finally saw the full clip of what Senator Clinton actually said.  It was thoughtful, nuanced, and I agreed with her.

Her argument consisted of several related points--1) 'Spitzer and I represent New York and [after 9/11] we need to know who is in our state in order to keep people safe.' 2) 'We wouldn't even be having this conversation if Republicans in Congress hadn't blocked comprehensive immigration reform.' and 3) 'This isn't perfect but I understand what Spitzer is trying to do and it might be the best we can do right now.'  

For all those people who have clamored for a more thoughtful debate of the issues--Senator Clinton's response was thoughtful.  And instead, Timmy Russert and the blowhards in the traditional media collapsed this into the "Hillary stumbled" meme--independent of the facts.

If Obama, Edwards, and Dodd would focus their energies on criticizing Republicans instead of repeating Republican talking points we'd be a lot better off.


http://www.rfkactionfront.com
by RFK Action Front on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:30:28 PM EST

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

Well, sure she is consistent if you only cover half of what she said. The argument you say she gave is an explanation why it makes sense to do it.  And yet when Dodd said to her "You said it makes sense", she vehemently objects that's what she said. Go look at the tape.


by Piuma on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

Yes, because she gave an answer that was thoughtful and detailed, and he tried to boil it down into a yes-or-no.  I also hate when people do that to me.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

Indeed.  Many serious policy questions like this either can't or shouldn't be boiled down to a simple yes or no.  There are nuances, and we should all be smart enough to understand that.  To pretend that you don't is simply disingenuous.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 10:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

Here's the part that you and Dodd are missing. Clinton never said that it made sense to do it. She said that Spitzer's plan made sense.

Lots of ideas make sense, but aren't ideas that Presidential candidates commit to doing. Here's an example: gay marriage makes sense, but I don't see Presidential candidates rushing to commit to implementing gay marriage.

Single-payer government health care "makes sense". It's a valid idea. Clinton has said that it is an idea that makes sense. However, she is not endorsing or proposing single payer government health insurance.

Now, I will grant you that having a President with the policy chops to outline the proposals on all sides of an issue has become a bit of foreign concept. However, I think you will find that Clinton's ability to present various arguments on policy issues is one of the reasons that her many issues-oriented supporters intend to vote for her.


by hwc on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 08:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

For 7 years Americans have gotten used to yes and no answers provided by a President who thinks he never has to explain anything.  Now they better get used to a woman with a brain who thinks things out and knows that not all problems can't be fixed with one word answers.  New Rassmussen Poll taken just 2 days after the debate shows that Hillary has gone up 5% and Obama has lost 7%. The American people have spoken. The gang bang was a flop. Tsk Tsk Tim Russert.


by changingroom on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

I'm really uncomfortable with your "gang bang" phrase. I think it's entirely inappropriate, and it's not what happened.  Edwards, Obama and the others didn't attack her during the debate because she's a woman (as your phrase implies), they attacked her because they're all at least 10 points behind her.  I think it's an ultimately self defeating strategy, but it wasn't a "gang bang".


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 10:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

Denny this is what it looks like to women who have faced this kind of thing whenever they are up against men for a promotion. In politics perception is reality.  I agree that Edwards and Obama are losing big time so they needed to shake up the race however, instead of attacking the real enemies, the Republicans and the Bush Administration, they attack the leading candidate of our party, with the aid of the Media of course, who is terrified that another Clinton will become President and fix another Bush's mess. This was not a debate about ideas it was GOTCHA. If Senators Obama and Edwards want to win the nomination they need to give people a reason to vote for THEM two new polls taken after the debate show that they have not made their case.


by changingroom on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 12:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

Well that's not what she said and even if it was, the thoughtful answer would be to say what she would do, not that Spitzer makes sense but she wouldn't do it. Dodd was clear, he gave the reasons why he's opposed.  Obama was clear, he gave the reasons why he is for it.  Clinton said both.

It's time we had someone who articulated what realistically makes sense and goes about to implement it.  I disagree with many of your examples.  Gay marriage does not make sense as government policy because marriage has religious connotations and government's role is separate.  That is why civil unions make sense as policy and the definition of marriage should be left to individuals and/or religious institutions.  Single-payer doesn't make sense as policy because at this time it is most likely a losing proposition at a time where we desperately need reform immediately.  Having policy chops means analyzing all sides and coming to a conclusion of what makes sense considering what we can accomplish and then accomplishing that.  Hillary merely analyzes both sides and tries to float in between both so she can never be caught taking the wrong side.  She votes for War and says it is for diplomacy.  That doesn't make sense.


by Piuma on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:56:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC created their own meme to fuel horse race (none / 0)

She then came out on Wednesday and supported Spitzer's plan to give driver's license to ill-legal aliens.

This will bite her in the ass in the GE. THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE IS COMING TO THE FOREFRONT AND IS a wedge issue that will be used by the republicans.

Clinton just lost VA on her support for driver licenses to un-documented or ill-legal aliens.
This is a huge issue in Prince William and Loudon county in VA. tHIS IS THE FASTEST GROWING AREA IN VA. Both Kaine and Webb won these area's for the first time for any democrat. Only Warner could win the state without winning these two counties, because he is popular in the rural counties of VA.

I live in northern VA.


by BDM on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 12:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]