Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision

Unfortunately, this was a political inevitability.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday came out against granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, after weeks of pressure in the presidential race to take a position on a now-failed ID plan from her home state governor. [...]

"I support Governor Spitzer's decision today to withdraw his proposal," Clinton said in a statement. "As president, I will not support driver's licenses for undocumented people and will press for comprehensive immigration reform that deals with all of the issues around illegal immigration including border security and fixing our broken system."

Clinton's statement echoes that of Gov. Eliot Spitzer when he announced earlier today that he was withdrawing his plan to give driver's licenses to the undocumented:

...what I have learned here is that, while there are times when states should be laboratories, immigration is not one of them. It's too complex and too macro a challenge to be solved by a patchwork of state policies. But the reality of 14 million undocumented immigrants nationwide and one million in New York isn't going away. So my challenge to the federal government is this: fix it. Fix the problem so the states won't face the local impact.

And, as gladiatorstail reminds us in the diaries, it even echoes Senator Clinton's own words from the MSNBC debate:

So what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is to fill the vacuum. I believe we need to get back to comprehensive immigration reform because no state, no matter how well intentioned, can fill this gap. There needs to be federal action on immigration reform.

But with the fear-mongering from the right on immigration, a pro-drivers license for undocumented position is now politically untenable and this call for a sort of amorphous "comprehensive immigration reform" has become the Democrats' safe goto position. Spitzer, who prefers boldness to safety, calls for it after a brave if clumsy fight for real reform at the state level, which has already exacted a political cost to him. According to a new SurveyUSA poll, since issuing the executive order directing the state to grant undocumented immigrants driver's licenses in September, his approve/disapprove numbers have plummeted from 49/43 to 36/56 today, a 26% net drop in approval. Even his approval among Democrats has dropped into the red, to 41/49.

Clinton's action today was an effort to prevent any similar erosion of her own support that might result from outright support for such a measure (which she appeared on the verge of expressing a couple of times during and after the debate.) But there is some evidence that it may have already begun to take a small toll.

Since the now infamous debate during which Hillary Clinton was seen, at best, equivocating on the issue of whether the undocumented should be granted driver's licenses, we've seen her lead over Barack Obama in New Hampshire drop and there have been some signs, albeit inconclusive, that her national numbers may have softened. But while it's not clear whether these developments were due to the fact that she appeared to waffle on the issue or that she did not come right out and oppose the driver's license proposal or neither, the new Quinnipiac Ohio poll contains some warning signs for Senator Clinton in this crucial bellwether state. For one thing, since Quinnipiac's October Ohio poll, her support in the primary has dropped 5 points from 47 to 42, as has her lead over Rudy Giuliani, which has gone from 46-40 to 44-43; in addition, her approval/disapproval rating has gone from 49/42 to 44/44. Now, here again, the cause of this drop is inconclusive, but this result from the poll is telling:

If a Presidential candidate favors providing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants are you more likely to vote for that candidate, less likely to vote for that candidate, or doesn't it make a difference?

More likely              3%      
Less likely              55  
Doesn't make diff   37

Now, while finally stating unequivocally that she opposes driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants is wise, Clinton is well aware that it is likely to be anything but painless. Barack Obama has already issued a statement calling her out and you know her rivals for the Democratic nomination are readying their barbs for tomorrow night's debate. But ultimately, as Marc Ambinder puts it:

From the standpoint of politics, Clinton has apparently decided that the lumps she'll take today -- that she massaged her position, changed her position -- a Chris Dodd spokesman called it "flipflopping cubed" -- are much less damaging the lumps she'd take in the general election if she did not set a marker of opposition.



Display:


Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

It was a politically smart move.

She should get out of it without too many lumps now or too many problems in the general.

Most of the Repubs have also been all over the map on the immigration issue.


by Bush Bites on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:29:49 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Politically smart move?.......I think not, she is on tape both supporting it and not supporting it.  Can you say "I voted for it before I voted against?"  John Kerry the 2nd and a sure loser in the general.   Obama will stand strong and defeat her in the primary and win the general.  Hillarys flipflop just reminds voters of her flipflop on the Iraq war.  A politician with no principles.


by allmiview on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I didn't think the flip-flop would be a problem in the general because most of the top Repubs have flip-flopped on the issue too.

Obviously, throwing out hypocritical charges has never bothered the Repubs before, so I guess I could be wrong on that.

It's politically courageous of Obama to hold to this position, but I guess I don't have same faith in the voters as you.

Hate to say it, but I think immigration might become the "gay marriage" of 2008.


by Bush Bites on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Obama's senior adviser David Axelrod views the shift as pure political chutzpah and a sign her $50 million campaign is running off the rails.

"She decided the kitchen was too hot, so she got out," said Axelrod. "It was a stunning reversal by her and it underscores her unreliability, that her position will change from week to week ... It's amazing to me that the gears of this vaunted political machine are really starting to show."


by allmiview on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

" she is on tape both supporting it and not supporting it."

No, she is not on tape.  At best you have a blurb of what some unnamed campaign helper "when pressed" may or may not have told the New York Times when it comes to "being for the issue," and even if that quote were truly from a Clinton campaign hand, there you have a case of it looking to be a specific NY city based answer rather than a federal program.  


by georgep on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:47:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Smart move or not, I will believe that illegal immigration as an issue worked if the GOP took back the Senate in 2008 and Mitch McConnell was installed as the Senate Majority leader. Otherwise, dont come to me with polls showing how immigration is effective as a wedge issue. I would have believed that immigration is a wedge issue in Virginia if the people had voted for a GOP majority in the VA Senate.


by Boilermaker on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 08:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But Obama calling her out by (none / 0)

claiming he still supports the plan even while Spitzer does not is not likely to help him with independents in NH.


by bookgrl on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:34:41 PM EST

Re: But Obama calling her out by (none / 0)

Yeah, this will be a tough one for him to carry, especially since Hillary's people already seem to be making hay out of it.


by Bush Bites on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Obama calling her out by (none / 0)

they will, but just wait because Edwards and Obama WILL TEAR HER APART on this issue; we need to see how Hillary reacts, that will show if she is ready for Mitt and Rudy.


by American1989 on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Obama calling her out by (none / 0)

I don't think this will be a problem, because the fact is that Clinton's position has been consistent (she supported Spitzer's goals, without ever actually supporting the program -- now she supports Spitzer's decision to not issue licenses, but never says she actually opposes them) -- and just as consistently misrepresented by the media...and the other candidates.

So, if Hillary is smart, the first time she is asked about this tomorrow, she will point out that Tim Russert misrepresented what she had said in his question (and cite the Nashua paper that Russert cited, which has said she was taken out of context), and was given 30 seconds to explain her position on a complex issue....and then was jumped on by the media and her opponents because she was doing well in the polls.

And if pressed, she should just point out that states don't have the power (nor the financial wherewithall) to enforce immigration laws, but its the states that bear the burden of Bush and the GOP to deal with the issue....and Governors like Eliot Spitzer and other governors are stuck with the problem of millions of people living in the shadows in their states, including potentially hundreds of thousands of drivers who are unlicensed and uninsured.  That creates a public safety risk, and a financial burden on the people of New York -- and she supported Spitzer's goal of addressing the problem.

....and if she continues to be pressed, she should go on the attack, and have evidence of every other candidate taking equivocal positions at the ready....


by plukasiak on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Obama calling her out by (none / 0)

If she actually said what you say she should say some people's heads might actually explode.  But the question wouldn't be set up for this type of answer.  The question will be, putting aside Spitzer's plan and Spitzer's problems, do you support giving illegals drivers licenses?  If she answers that with a long drawn out answer of what she meant when she said various things, hopefully someone will bring a rope ladder on stage to help her climb out.


by Piuma on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:55:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Obama calling her out by (none / 0)

The answer to that is obviously no.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Obama calling her out by (none / 0)

So that means unlicensed, undocumented persons will be driving without insurance?

Won't that mean an increase in the "uninsured insurance" premium?

Why does the Congress have such a hard time obeying the Constitution? Doesn't Art. 1 §8, Clause 4 specifically state:

"The Congress shall have power

"4. To establish an uniform rule of naturalization..."? http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/art1.h tm

What has Hillary and the rest of Congress been doing about establishing a uniform rule of naturalization?

Is it the "uniform rule" that gives them problems?

Is it because Cubans are legal upon setting foot on US soil and Mexicans aren't? That's hardly an example of a "uniform rule."

Has anyone ever suggested that Congress obey the law?

In Federalist Paper No. 32, cannabis-advocate Alexander Hamilton wrote:

"if each State had power to prescribe a DISTINCT RULE, there could not be a UNIFORM RULE." http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federa l/fed32.htm

There's the rationale for Congress to establish a uniform rule for naturalization. What more do they need?


by Hempy on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I have no idea how this can help Obama based on your own logic...


by prisonbreak on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:35:25 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (2.00 / 1)

big issues in this campaign: iraq; health care; decline of the dollar; torture; iran; etc etc.

not important: a state level proposal to allow low level driving identification cards to the undocumented.

in classic swift boat fashion, this diary buys into a right-wing frame. the way to fight back is to say, no! the issue is iraq. not to say ...er...er...er...sorry sorry sorry. that's the john kerry way.


by CalDem on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:36:27 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I'm really amazed at the number of people who run screaming in fear from this issue, as if millions of Americans will really cast their vote based on the issue of driver's licenses.

Perhaps people have forgotten that prior to the 2006 election, Republicans ran ads all over the country accusing Democrats of wanting to give Social Security benefits to illegal immigrants.  Gee, how'd that election turn out?

Folks, they play this card all the time!  That doesn't mean it's a voting issue for most people.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:08:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (2.00 / 1)

If a Presidential candidate favors providing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants

If I were called w/ this survey question, I would not be able to answer. Does answering yes mean:

- as federal policy for all states

or

- leave it up to the states instead of pursuing a bill to make it a matter of federal policy to disallow the practice?


by dblhelix on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:38:32 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (2.00 / 1)

"Comprehensive immigration reform" may be an amorphous term, but I think we all understand the broad outlines of what's involved.

First, real enforcement of the laws, including securing the border and worksite enforcement.

Second, a path to citizenship for those already here who wish to take it.

The devil is in the details, but does anyone disagree that the ultimate political solution is going to have to look something like this?

It's going to be rough, but it's far, far better than a regime where governors and mayors are forced to muddle through with stopgap measures because they have no resources to enable real enforcement or anything else.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:53:31 PM EST

Which makes me wonder also (none / 0)

If Obama is going to hold on to his position? He was pretty unequivical.


by okamichan13 on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:54:19 PM EST

Re: Which makes me wonder also (none / 0)

of course he is


by allmiview on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which makes me wonder also (none / 0)

and this will kill the democrats; i was very mad when hillary was for it as well


by American1989 on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which makes me wonder also (none / 0)

He is not going to lose California because he wants hundreds of thousands of unlicensed people to be able to get licenses and insurance.  


by Piuma on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:11:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which makes me wonder also (none / 0)

Of course he is, it's the right decision.  He's absolutely right, it's a matter of safety and practicality.  I've been in a minor accident with an undocumented worker and it puts you in a terrible position - he could lose his job, he could be deported, these are not issues that I should have to deal with, the government should.  So you end up settling things on a cash basis instead of going through insurance because they can't get insurance.  It's a mess, and the terrorist argument is a complete red herring.  Fake driver licenses and IDs are about the easiest thing in the world to get - if any underage kid who wants to drink can get one, surely any terrorist can figure it out.  Dodd and Clinton and Edwards are wrong on this - taking the wrong position once again out of fear of losing the election.  Good for Obama.


by Piuma on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which makes me wonder also (none / 0)

These is exactly the type of thinking which put us into the position of losing the White House and Congress.  Time to stand up.


by Piuma on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then We'll Now See (none / 0)

What Obama is made of and we'll see if he'll come out against Spitzer's withdrawal of the plan.


by Edgar08 on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I think it was important for her to backpedal, because it WILL KILL the Democratic nominee!!!

She needs to come out and apologize tomorrow and say that it was a mistake and she did not knew the details from the start and has learned more and realizes that it was a mistake and get over it!

As for a flip-flop, if it is against Mitt, it won't happen. With Rudy, anything can happen.


by American1989 on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:00:41 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Bull.  It will not kill the Democrat nominee unless that nominee runs out of fear and let's the Repubs put us on the backpeddle until we once again prove we stand for nothing.


by Piuma on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:05:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Still Supports It (none / 0)

And would say Spitzer was wrong to withdraw his plan if he really did support it.

Right?

It's smart politics to hide behind an attack and never give an answer yourself.


by Edgar08 on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:20:09 PM EST

Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (2.00 / 1)

Obama has two choices:

a) Flip flop for political expediency and give up his "new kind of holier than thou politics".

b) Stick to his unequivocal position supporting drivers licenses for illegal Mexicans who are stealing American jobs and get beat up the side of his head with a political baseball bat

His choice.


by hwc on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:24:13 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (2.00 / 1)

youve got to admire Hillary she is one cynical woman. and her supporters are equally as disgusting.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Hillary didn't paint Obama into a corner. She just handed him the brush.

He is now stuck with a position that 77% of the American electorate hates with a red hot passion. He'd be better off coming out against Jesus than coming out in favor of drivers licenses for "illegal Mexicans who steal American jobs". He's on the wrong side of wedge issue and won't get to a state where there is a Latino/a vote in sight unless he gets past lily white Iowa and New Hampshire.


by hwc on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

and Hillary is caught being a lying triangulating  phoney which is the type of person nobody likes.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

It's a safety issue and you want to portray it like a race issue.  A drivers license doesn't get you a job, but it can get you insurance.


by Piuma on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

yadda yadda yadda.

Explain B.O.'s position to the lily white yahoo bubba voters in Iowa.


by hwc on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

wow!


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:58:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

What does white have to do with wanting everyone on the road to have passed a drivers test and have insurance?  I don't think the people in Iowa are bubbas, but every Tom, Dick, and Bubba surely has the expectation that everyone driving has passed a proficiency test and can understand the reasoning behind the expectation.


by Piuma on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:59:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unbelievable (2.00 / 2)

I'd rather be on the "wrong side of a wedge issue" than just plain wrong.


by Ryan Anderson on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unbelievable (none / 0)

What is shocking is some people actually thinking that the "right" political move is to run in fear of this type of argument.  I really hope this turns into a full blown affair in the debate because this plays right into the strength Obama's JJ speech.


by Piuma on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:03:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

shocked my hwc comments (none / 0)

I cant believe this guy is playing the racial card through this driver license issue.

Ive never seen a democrat talks that way..HWC is blantantly saying that Hillary is basicly going to go the anti-immigrant route.


by Prodigy on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:19:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

That's positively silly to say 77% of the electorate  hates the position with a red hot passion.  That number has nothing to do with intensity.

The number of people who cast their votes primarily on immigration issues, to say nothing of the sub-issue of driver's licenses, is obviously far less than 77%.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:02:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

We shall see.

I think I've been around politics long enough to know a red hot wedge issue when I see one.

I believe that 59% of the Bubba Democrats in Iowa are opposed to giving drivers licences to illegal immigrants.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:46:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Clinton is now to the (none / 0)

right of George Bush, who allowed illegals to have real driver's licenses in Texas.

Is there no end to the rationalizations we have to believe from Hillary?


by fladem on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is now to the (none / 0)

Many Democrats are to Bush's right on immigration.  In case you hadn't noticed, Bush has center-left views on immigration.

Be that as it may, the trivial issue of driver's licenses is far from the sum and substance of anyone's position on the overall issue of immigration.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:03:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is now to the (none / 0)

So is Edwards, even more so, since he categorically was against DL's right after the debate, considers this a simple "Yes/No" question with no room to actually look at a given issue at hand and decide on a case-by-case basis.

And I suppose Dodd is a hopeless right-winger as well.  


by georgep on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:00:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

We need a candidate with courage to take un-popular positions rather than a flip floper who has no core values. Who is to say that in a week or so, that she will change her position again.

My problem with Hillary is that I have no idea where she stands on the issues because she constantly changes her positions according to the political winds.


by BDM on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:53:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

We need a candidate with courage to take un-popular positions rather than a flip floper who has no core values.

We'll see how that works out for B.O. in lily white Iowa when he starts getting pummelled with questions about his support for giving drivers licenses to "illegal Mexicans who take American jobs".

Clinton tried to show him how to finesse the issue. But, he smacked her around for it. So now she's pulled the issue out from under him, leaving him alone in being exposed to an angry electorate. He's gonna wake up some day and realize the value of finessing lose/lose issues.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:00:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

wow!


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:06:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

hwc,

I think Clinton made the made the right call on this, and I often agree with your analyses, but it pains me to see you using Lou Dobbs-type nativist language like this.  Let's not go overboard


by markjay on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

It's not how I view the issue. I'm in favor of "amnesty". But, I can read the polls. I'm just framing the issue the way the overwhelming majority of American voters (Democratic and Republican) view the issue of drivers licenses for illegal immigrants.

Clinton is going to pummel Obama with two issues:

a) his support of drivers licenses for illegals
b) his support of a one trillion dollar Social Security tax increase.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:10:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

OK, I see your point.  Thanks for the reply.


by markjay on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

You're right about that.  But that's after Iowa, right?  Otherwise she better start soon.  And the one will make her sound like a Democrat and the other will make her sound like a Republican.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:45:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

She's already started talking about opposing one trillion dollar tax increases in her stump speech. She'll work drivers licenses for illegals in by this time tomorrow.

Here's tonight's AP headline:

"Clinton Says No to Licenses for Illegals"

B.O. better think quickly. Wolf Blitzer has already said that he'll raise the issue in tomorrow's debate. Obama has to be ready to flip flop, hedge, or take his beating.

He's been picking the wrong battles. There is no good that can come from the immigration issue for any politician in 2008. Repeatedly bringing it up was just stupid.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

Here is his answer:

"This party - the party of Jefferson and Jackson; of Roosevelt and Kennedy - has always made the biggest difference in the lives of the American people when we led, not by polls, but by principle; not by calculation, but by conviction; when we summoned the entire nation to a common purpose - a higher purpose.  And I run for the Presidency of the United States of America because that's the party America needs us to be right now. "


by Piuma on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:54:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

Good luck selling "the higher purpose" of giving drivers licenses to "illegal immigrants who are breaking the law and taking American jobs".


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:08:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: illegal Mexicans stealing American jobs? (none / 0)

He's done this before in Illinois.  He knows what he's doing on this issue.  Good luck, she'll end up sounding like Tancredo if she's not careful.  Bad look.  The convention is a way off yet.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You took the words (none / 0)

write out of my mouth. Can the nativism, please.


by bookgrl on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Flip Flop (none / 0)

This hurts Hillary all the more on character issues.


by rosebowl on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:26:25 PM EST

Re: Flip Flop (none / 0)

she has no charachter issues because she has no charachter.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

David Axelrod is full of crap.  He's a lousy strategist.  He launched what he believed was a rockstar candidate a few months ago and the rockstar is still trailing considerably behind Hillary.  So now they are playing dirty.  How utterly predictable.  I look forward to Hillary wiping the floor with Obama.  It's all about timing.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:27:06 PM EST

Has anyone tested (none / 0)

to see how popular "jumping off a bridge" is among Iowa Democrats?


by Ryan Anderson on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:30:13 PM EST

Poll Driven Politics (none / 0)

Clinton joins Dodd and Edwards is letting the polls guide their judgment.


Bill Richardson: "Get out now. Get all our troops out now. It is the only right and responsible choice."
by Stephen Cassidy on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:00:50 AM EST

Re: Poll Driven Politics (none / 0)

All politics is political.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:02:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poll Driven Politics (none / 0)

Except Edwards repeatedly calls for an end to cautious, poll driven politics.  


Bill Richardson: "Get out now. Get all our troops out now. It is the only right and responsible choice."
by Stephen Cassidy on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 10:12:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poll Driven Politics (none / 0)

How so? Edwards said at the debate and after, and still, that he favors letting states do this if they decide to in the context of federal immigration reform.

Since 8 states already make workers with paperwork issues to be eligible for driver's licenses. Would Clinton act as President to block them from continuing to do so?


by desmoulins on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

This diary should probably be updated to include the Clinton campaign's latest response to her rival's attacks on her driver license decision:

Clinton spokesman Phil Singer: "It's unfortunate that the other campaigns are employing hot rhetoric.  However, there are basic differences: Sen. Clinton would not give driver's licenses to undocumented people, Senator Obama would and nobody seems to know what Senator Edwards believes on the issue."
http://thepage.time.com/clinton-camps-re sponse-to-attacks-on-drivers-license-sta nce/


by ademption on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:00:54 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

It won't leave a mark on Edwards.  
His answer was clear on This Week with George Stephanopolous.  
He said he did NOT support the Spitizer plan.
Her campaign trying to shoot back at Edwards shows desperation.
Ignoring that his answer is already on tape is not wise.
They tried to put out an edited tape that cut short his answer.  
The addition came out in hours.
In fact, that is what got them into so much trouble.  
They producted the video, the Politics of Pile On,
Edwards responded quickly with the Politics of Parsing.
Edwards has a great response team that is creative and perceptive.
She should be careful how she attacks Edwards, he WILL respond.
I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:53:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Of course she won't give them to undocumented people because they then would have a document, and we can't have that. I mean if they did then we may actually start the process of doing meaningful immigration reform, the first step of which is beginning to get a handle on exactly how many people we are dealing with.  But then that might lead to a situation where there might actually be sanctions and restrictions to companies hiring undocumented workers and Clinton's friends wouldn't like that at all.


by Piuma on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:08:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Okay, to get serious for a moment, the "first step" to solving the immigration problem almost certainly should not be a hodgepodge of stopgap measures at the state level.

Spitzer's idea, while it might be good policy in a perfect world, is nonetheless a distraction from the overriding goal of achieving a comprehensive solution on the federal level.  Let's not get too upset that it's not going to happen.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Right. It's a govenor's perogative, and Obama should say that. But he should also reiterated his support of governors trying to tackles the problem in the absence of a federal solution. He need not push Spitzers plan back on Spitzer, but he needs to stand up for the position as a legit option for govenors to employ if they see fit.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:14:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

That was exactly the point Hillary made at the debate, though.  I liked her long answer better than his short answer.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:16:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Exactly.  Her answer was 100% the right one at the debate.   Instead of realizing that it was exactly the correct answer, Edwards and Obama got infected with the Russert bug and wanted to play gotcha, thereby cartoonizing what was an excellent answer disigeniously as "parsing."   They either did not understand the it for the correct "outside of Russert-gotcha realm" answer it was, in which case their overall judgement and, frankly, ability to comprehend had to come into question, or they just wanted to play into a base "let's play the gotcha game," which then made it cheesy.

Russert was really an ass for making this the big issue it has become, as if state-level gutwrenching immigration decisions like that should receive a one-size fits-all treatment and be federalized in the first place.  On my way home from a client today I tuned into Limbaugh, and the jerk actually prides himself for being the person who got the issue out there via his radio show the afternoon of the debate with a "gotcha" question Limbaugh posed at for Hillary about the Spitzer plan.  That question was then picked up almost verbatim by Russert for that evening's debate.  


by georgep on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

The crazy thing is that Clinton provided those two fools cover to finesse an issue that no Democrat should touch with a ten foot pole.

Instead of taking her cue, they went after her. Fine. She just pulled the rug out from under them and left Barack Obama "standing on principle" on in issue that 77% of America disagrees with...a position that is pure radioactive. Now, Hillary is going to beat him up the side of the head with the "clear differences" between them on the issue of illegal immigration. By the time Clinton is done with him, Obama is going to be Mr. Amnesty.

The Georgetown Social Club spent the day wondering why Clinton released her statement. They'll figure it out sooner or later. She released it today to push Obama into a very bad corner for tomorrow night's debate, especially considering there isn't any Latino/a vote in Iowa or New Hampshire.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 04:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Hillary would be a fool to alienate large portions of the Democratic base by getting demagogic on the issue of illegal immigration, and she's not a fool.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 09:28:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Is that true?  Considering how progressives have been trying to build a case against Russert, you'd think we could work in the fact that he apparently gets his questions straight from Rush!  I wonder if Holden's friend Bob knows about Rush's boasting.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 09:29:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

He's going to argue the position he used in Illinois.  He knows this issue.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

He ran against Alan frickin' Keyes in Illinois.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:53:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

And beat him.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:50:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I know. We should just sick Mad Dog Edwards on the evil corporations who hire illegals. He's been "fighting them his whole life". It's perfect for him.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:36:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Are you even old enough to vote?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:42:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I'm old enough to know that the only way to stem the flow of illegal immigration is to harshly penalize companies that hire them. Of course, attacking the business community is political suicide, but that doesn't seem to phase Mad Dog Edwards.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:55:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

So Clinton was for it before she was against it.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:10:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Of course she wouldn't "give" licenses to anyone....president's don't do that as it implicates a police power reserved to the states.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A Roller Coaster Ride (none / 0)

I am getting whiplash from the Clinton campaign's machinations on this one.  

I remember being here at MyDD after the now infamous Philadelphia 2007 debate, and everyone was saying that Clinton was unclear, or holding two opposite positions simultaneously, on this issue.  Her poll numbers in NH (the only place where large numbers of voters were actually watching this MSNBC debate) promptly dropped. They did not like what they saw of Hillary Clinton (an off night?), and they did not like the victim card being played afterward.

That night, here at MyDD, Hillary supporters were telling us that Hillary was actually against it (how they reached that conclusion from the mixup, I do not know), and that Obama was politically foolish for saying he was for it.  

Then, as promised to the world, the Clinton campaign tried to clarify her position in a press release the next day:  Hillary WAS supportive of the effort.  The press got angry: once again, she was obfuscating.  Was she in favor of the plan?  Or against the plan?  Her aides responded, and gave the press what they wanted.  Yes, yes, Hillary Clinton WAS in favor of Spitzer's plan.

At that point in time, it became clear that contrary to what her supporters here were saying the night before, Hillary WAS in favor of giving drivers' licenses. Okay, fair enough. After a night of twisting in the wind, she had explicitly and unequivocally jumped into the boat with Obama, the same boat that her supporters were criticizing the night before!  Okay.

Now, today, we learn that Hillary has decided to jump OUT of the boat, the same one she had just jumped into, leaving Obama to do what?  Sink?  

Look, if Hillary  becomes our nominee, this jumping in and out of the boat, this flip-flopping, is going to hurt us. The 527's are putting the footage together as we speak.  Let's hope they have a small budget.  :(  


by Demo37 on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:55:09 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

She seems to have been thinking entirely about Iowa when she made this decision and forgotten Nevada. For the most politically active unions, SEIU and Culinary, whose endorsements she has been trying to win, immigrants' rights is a major issue. Its one of the issues that the Clinton campaign had been using to try to keep them from endorsing Edwards. Now she's just shot that to tell.

Secondly, this issue was a major factor in the Nevada Governor's race last fall. But what hurt the Democrat so badly wasn't her position (or more precisely the Republican misrepresnetation of her position); it was the impression (false, but widely held) that she had changed her position.

I am quite sure this is going to come up in tomorrow's debate, and its once again not going to be pretty for Clinton.


by desmoulins on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:58:07 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

"...there are basic differences: Sen. Clinton would not give driver's licenses to undocumented people, Senator Obama would..."

Now that there are clear differences, Clinton will just emphasize those differences and let the voters decide.


by hwc on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 01:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

exept on Oct 31 Hillary would give them DL's (none / 0)

October 31 statement from the campaign
"Senator Clinton supports governors like Governor Spitzer who believe they need such a measure to deal with the crisis caused by this administration's failure to pass comprehensive immigration reform."

a little inconvienient truth HWC ----spin that away, so when says that new "position" was she lying then or is she lying now or has she had a major philisophical conversion.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:32:58 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

here's a link to the NY times peice on Hillary's 10/31 position of DL's

"A Day Later, Clinton Embraces Spitzer's License Effort." New York Times. 10/31.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:50:04 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/ 10/31/a-day-later-clinton-embraces-spitz ers-license-effort/


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 02:50:32 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

It is painful, but she has to.  I think the erosion has to do more with the driver's license issue than anything Obama or Edwards has been saying about her- most Americans are dead set against it- this would hurt her in the general- at work today, a guy was reading headlines and then came to Hillary saying she was now against it- he started whooping and cheering and then let a huge rant against the idea and others joined in- people just HATE the idea- they get furious thinking something like that might happen- personally I am for it but the bile this brings out in others is amazing.  I don't think most people care if she has waffled about it as long as she ends up against it. For them, the issue of it is what is important- not that she might have changed her mind on it.  I don't see why so many despise the illegals- but they do.


by reasonwarrior on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 06:03:31 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

well, I think that the opposition to drivers licenses falls into two camps....

1) people who are also vehemently opposed to Telecom Immunity

2) bigots

i mean, 77% of Americans don't hate immigrants; a large chunk of that group simply opposes the idea of state government sanctioning federal "criminals".   The whole drivers license thing is completely counter-intuitive, and the first reaction of most people to any proposal in which illegal behavior is deliberately ignored is to reject it.


by plukasiak on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 08:09:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Clinton pressured Spitzer to change is position due to the political pressure on her campaign. In my view, it's not a negative for Clinton, in that sense, since it shows that she took the lead in getting Spitzer to drop his plans. Of course the CW around here and at DailyKos won't acknowledge that Clinton actually behaved as a principled leader on the issue. The Hillary Haters like to say they live in a "reality-based" community; but they're no more 'reality-based' than redstate, judging from the breathtakingly credulous commentary. It's depressing to watch the downward trajectory of progressives who are in actuality, just as hypocritical as the Republicon Party.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 08:21:47 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I doubt it, since politically in New York Spitzer is still stronger than she is.  

If Spitzer woke up tomorrow and said "Hillary should never darken the door of the White House ever again", it would dramatically affect her campaign but not so much Spitzer.  If Hillary said "Spitzer is a poopiehead" (or whatever) it wouldn't have much affect.

The state apparatus is a curious machine in New York, but it isn't Hillary's machine.  She is a cog of the moment.  Our political culture still reflects Tammany Hall.  We have a strange relationship with our Governors.


by NicholasWalter on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 10:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

The GOP can do all its dance in NY using immigration as a wedge, but they will loose big in 2008 in NY. And by the way, the latest ARG Polls indicate that the race is closer to the NYT poll rather than the Strategic Vision Poll.

http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/

I think that the Southern Strategy elements in the GOP of which SV Polls are a part want Obama as the nominee to use the race baiting as the wedge issue. They will dig up every white woman that Obama has dated to scare the racist southern voters and racist voters elsewhere such as Ohio and Colorado. They will also try to appeal to Bob Jones University kinds most of whom believe that the birth of Obama was a mistake because he is a product of interracial relationship. Michelle Obama is wrong. The blacks are not waking up, they are wide awake and they see the future with the Obama candidacy. 60% of the blacks support Clinton over Obama. That was not the case twenty years ago when 70% of the blacks backed Jesse Jackson. As one black person here in VA told me bluntly, "Obama may be deluded, but we are not!!"


by Boilermaker on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 10:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

Of course the GOP will lose big here.  I wouldn't argue that they won't.  I'm simply talking about the political ramifications of the driver-license issue in New York, which affects Spitzer less than Hillary.  Spitzer isn't up for re-election until 2010.  Hillary is running now.


by NicholasWalter on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:46:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

I dont know how much ramifications it would have. The GOP will make it an issue and it may affect it at the margins. Nationally, I will believe that immigration is an issue when Gilmore starts closing the gap with Mark Warner, Shaheen trails in NH and Coleman takes a commanding lead in MN. If illegal immigration is really an issue we would not be talking about the Dems gaining at least four to five seats in the Senate. It is an issue in some areas, but nationally it is a wash.


by Boilermaker on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

When these poll numbers turn around, I will believe illegal immigration is a major issue, heck I will even believe that people want to stop all immigration...

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/11/po lls_gop_in_bad_shape_for_2008_senate_rac es.php


by Boilermaker on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 12:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Driver's License Decision (none / 0)

The problem with Hillary's latest "I'm against it" is that like a spineless creature from the deep, she waited for Spitzer to finally listen to the people of New York and withdraw his plan.  

Spitzer is the one with courage, taking his lumps on a plan that New Yorkers were 70+% against.  

Hillary waited for him to withdraw his plan and now, all of a sudden, she's against it.

I don't call that leadership.


by NicholasWalter on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 10:04:18 AM EST


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