MyDD :: Should pregnant women ...?

Should pregnant women ...?

by Natasha Chart, Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 10:58:50 PM EST

So asks a headline in the New York Times, but some similar question is always a perennial favorite. Should pregnant women eat more, eat less, eat something else, have maybe a drink a day as the British do or none as American society would have it, do some kind of exercise or another, lift anything, do too many stairs, or yadda, yadda, yadda.

A woman gets pregnant and she stops being an individual adult in many people's eyes.

Strangers pester her with advice out of the blue. People may feel free to reach out and touch her stomach like it's become public property. If she's doing something that doesn't meet with the standards of whomever happens to be watching, she's may be publicly reprimanded in ways that other adults would never be. Experiments have demonstrated that pregnant women are perceived almost universally to be less competent at whatever they're doing, perhaps the root cause of all this 'benevolent' micromanagement and invasion of personal space.

So society is always there with the helpful admonishment, because she's become accountable to everyone. Somehow.

Then she'll have her baby, and the questions change, with criticisms and suggestions becoming less paternalistic and more withering. For example, the baby had better not inconvenience anyone by crying, or she's clearly a bad mom. Adults out in public oughtn't to have to put up with crying babies. Ever. That's for their mom to put up with by herself. At home. Because chicks really dig having the company of no one besides an infant whose vocabulary consists of burps and earsplitting wails. If dad puts up with it though, he's a hero.

The baby had better not inconvenience anyone else by being hungry, either. Because if mom breastfeeds, well, that's just disgusting. And no one should have to see it. Ewww. Even if it prevents the infant making very loud noises that no one really wants to listen to. She should only do that at home. By herself. Or maybe with other mothers, who are also at home. Why can't she bottlefeed, already? Or pump? Or, if she does bottlefeed, why doesn't she care about her baby enough to breastfeed?

The public asks a lot of very sharp questions of women who take on the responsibility of having a child, and also makes sure to ask them not to bother anyone else while they're doing it. But maybe society should be asking other questions about pregnant women and new mothers. Like, maybe, these: Should pregnant women be at greater risk for being murdered? Should pregnant women, or mothers and young children, get better access to healthcare and nutritious food? Should pregnant women and female-headed households be disproportionately likely to live in poverty? Should society penalize moms in the workplace? Should society re-evaluate a control fetish over women's bodies that often forces them to choose between normal human desires and realizing their independent potential?

Motherhood isn't a hobby. It isn't a luxury. It isn't abnormal, freakish, or unsightly. It isn't easy. None of that's news, or it shouldn't be. But it's treated at various times as though it's all those things. Treated that way, talked about that way, with lectures and patronizing finger wags. If it's talked about at all.

Want more women to vote? It could help if these issues weren't swept away as unsightly.

For L and D, two mothers that are among the most competent people I know.

Tags: pregnancy, women, motherhood, discrimination (all tags)

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Re: Should pregnant women ...? (2.00 / 1)

All very true--except the bit about dad's being a hero. If a dad is the primary caregiver, he's a zero, not a hero. Talk about freakish abnormal, he gets point in the abstract, but many, many, many people (including a great many mothers) find that pretty unacceptable.

And just -try- dragging a kid screaming for Mommy out of a mall. You get security on your ass, and are lucky not to be arrested.

None of that is meant to minimize the overwhelming discrimination targeting pregnant women and mothers, though. And in fact, I think the myth of easy parenting--the Disnification of parenting, it's so wonderful and rewards every single moment--really spells trouble.

by BingoL on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:43:08 PM EST

depends on who you hang out with (none / 0)

In attachment parenting circles, men who are primary caregivers are not "zeroes" and are respected. But I take your point about mainstream society's messages about fathers who take care of their kids full-time.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:25:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Or the other side of the coin (2.00 / 1)

My wife and I are equal caregivers, and are both very active in the community. Sometimes we both have events at the same time and no babysitter, so one of us takes our daughter with us.

With my wife, people just assume that she should be taking care of the kid.

With me, people (mostly women) say it is so cute that I am babysitting. These are people who have known me for more than a decade and watched me with my daughter for more than three years and they STILL THINK AND SAY IT.

Well, I don't babysit my own damned kid. She's my responsibility and I am simply being her father. But since I am a man, it's assumed I have a subservient and minimal role in caregiving.

by nathan on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 07:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dads as caregivers (2.00 / 1)

I think David Neiwert said everything about being a full-time dad that needs to be said. But guys are generally assumed to be only temporarily putting up with the hassles associated with having young children, because they're supposed to have more important things to do. It's a hobby for layabouts, don't you know.

It's very cool that there are men out there who are taking parenting on in greater numbers, though. That's probably the only way it will ever be recognized as a real job, and for men in general to respect it as such instead of simultaneously idealizing and denigrating it.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dads as caregivers (none / 0)

Thanks for the link. He really nails it, except for: "It's impossible, I think, to put into words the immensity of the rewards that come with it ... "

I'm really uncomfortable with this sort of mythologizing. "The immensity of the awards" are indescribable? Really?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

by BingoL on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:18:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree, I think. (none / 0)

As a father myself, there are zero tangible rewards that come from parenting. However, I find that at the same time... there are immense unmeasurable rewards that allow you to overlook the fact that your kids give you literally nothing (and I do mean "literally" not "figuratively").

Invest in nature

by NCDem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:21:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Or maybe I'm doing something wrong? (none / 0)

My 2 year old hasn't bought me dinner yet, and I have bought every single one of hers for the past two years. Also, she hasn't given me a birthday present, or a Christmas present, and I've given her tons.

Invest in nature

by NCDem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:23:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe it -is- just me. (2.00 / 0)

I don't find it that rewarding. My -love- for the kid is beyond description, but the rewards? They're pretty describable. Somewhere between 'eh' and 'neat-o!'

I object to this for a few reasons. One, because I think many people are like me, but there's a taboo against admitting that child-rearing is just a job, and not a particularly rewarding one. Most who don't experience the ineffable psychological rewards of parenting are hesitant to say so, because it sounds like we're saying we don't utterly love our kids, which isn't true. But there's no real opposing mythology in our culture, so having kids almost always seems morally better, and more rewarding, than not.

And, of course, this is almost exclusively about women, not men. The group of parents who raise kids in my town is the 'Mommy' group, even if a daddy happens to be a member. And the mommies get doubly screwed by this mythology; how can they complain about raising a child (or two, or three) when it's such a wonderfully rewarding experience? They should be glowingly thankful, every day, for this indescribably rewarded job. So STFU, mommies.

If child-rearing is the highest of all activities, reward-wise, then one of the deepest roots of feminism is based in ingratitude and ugliness. On the other hand, if child-rearing is largely a thankless job, exhausting and demeaning and largely -absent- any psychic rewards, then the first wave (second wave? I get my waves confused) of feminism was completely justified.

You can't really say, 'Oh, raising a kid is the most rewarding activity imaginable', and also say, 'I support women's right to choose work over family'--not with the subtext that those women are deluded idiots. 'I support the rights of college students to choose unnecessary root canals over foot massages.'

by BingoL on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough (none / 0)

I think other's have addressed the unfortunate gender dynamic, but yes, there are people who don't find it all it's cracked up to be. And you're right, there should be space for someone to say, 'you know, this just isn't completely fulfilling for me.'

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree, I think. (none / 0)

My three year old gives me hugs, hand-drawn pictures of my family, kisses and squeals of laughter.

I get a lot.

by nathan on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:57:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes... (2.00 / 2)

But if I gave you those things, you'd get a restraining order issued, and therefore those things are of little to no "literal" value... and I reiterate my use of the word "literal".

My two-year old gives me those things, and tells me, "Daddy, I pooped. Get it off me."

"Why don't you use the potty?"

"I DON'T WANT TO!!! GET IT OFF ME!!!!"

Despite all that, I still love her. Why? Because of some strange biological brain-trauma that clearly occurs when one has offspring. (I mean, seriously, my daughter's hand-drawn family images are nothing but a bunch of squiggles. She absolutely sucks as an artist, yet I hang them in my office.)

Invest in nature

by NCDem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes... (none / 0)

I dunno. If I liked you it'd be OK if you gave me those things!

Ah, potty training. What fun. :-)

by nathan on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 05:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great diary. (none / 0)

My sister had a horrible time, real complications, trying to breastfeed her first baby, and decided it was best to forgo it with the second. People were openly hostile to her(sadly, particularly other women).

by bookgrl on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:15:58 AM EST

I am sorry to hear that (2.00 / 1)

Many women have trouble breastfeeding in the early weeks. I did too. I was fortunate to have a lot of support from La Leche League and lactation consultants, so we were able to work through the problems (extreme pain, poor latch, baby not gaining weight, infected sore on one side, etc.). I understand why many women do quit.

Although people should not judge your sister, perhaps some thought they were trying to encourage her to give it a shot with the second baby, and not to assume that everything would go wrong again. I know of many people who were not able to breastfeed their first baby but had a successful breastfeeding relationship with the second.

In fairness, many people who only have experience with bottle-feeding are "openly hostile" to breastfeeding mothers (especially women who nurse in public places). That is also wrong.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:24:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh boy. Good mothers know what works (none / 0)

for them and what doesn't. She didn't need coaching, she needed respect for her decision. I said "real complications". I'm not going to go into detail, but this wasn't going to work.

Why would you add this is? "In fairness, many people who only have experience with bottle-feeding are "openly hostile" to breastfeeding mothers (especially women who nurse in public places). That is also wrong." This had nothing to do with my comment.

by bookgrl on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:31:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sorry, I think you misunderstood (none / 0)

what I was trying to say.

No matter how you parent your child, there will be some people who are hostile to your choices. If you don't breastfeed, a certain group will be hostile, and if you do breastfeed (or breastfeed "too long"), a different group will be hostile.

If you don't let your baby cry, some people will be hostile, and if you do let your baby cry, different people will be hostile.

If you never leave your baby with a sitter, some people will be hostile, and if you make heavy use of baby-sitters, different people will be hostile.

I am not defending anyone who passes judgment on another person's parenting. I guess in your original comment I thought you were implying that breastfeeding mothers were particularly judgmental. So maybe I misunderstood you.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:39:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clearly you misunderstood me, though (none / 0)

I can hardly see how. NOTHING I SAID SHOULD HAVE LEAD TO SUCH A MISUNDERSTANDING. And, frankly, your attitude seems to be, oh well, people are hostile to mothers either way, so big deal. I disagree immensely. I think mothers should be respected for their decisions.

by bookgrl on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

reading comprehension is not your strong suit (none / 0)

if you read what I wrote to mean that mothers should NOT be respected for their decisions.

I was not saying that it's no big deal for people to be hostile. I specifically said it was wrong for people to be judgmental about someone else's parenting.

I am a co-leader of a parenting support group and moderator of an e-mail loop associated with that group. I am very aware of how that kind of criticism affects mothers, especially when friends or family members are the ones being critical about the parenting.

My advice is for people to make informed decisions in their parenting and feel confident enough about them not to let the hostility bother you.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:47:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to reread what you (none / 0)

said.

"My advice is for people to make informed decisions in their parenting and feel confident enough about them not to let the hostility bother you." Who said she wasn't confident? I was simply relating her experience.

by bookgrl on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:49:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

By the way, my sister has never, (none / 0)

NOT ONCE, been openly hostile, or in any other way hostile, to a breastfeeding mother, so do explain why it's jim dandy for anyone to be openly hostile to her and her decision for what was best for her and her child.

by bookgrl on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

where did I say (none / 0)

that it was "jim dandy" for others to be openly hostile to your sister?

I specifically said that it was wrong for others to be judgmental of her, and that I understand why many women quit breastfeeding. I know many women who have had similar experiences.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You go through this litany (none / 0)

of other circumstances in which others will be hostile to ones decisions. You state "In fairness, many people who only have experience with bottle-feeding are "openly hostile" to breastfeeding mothers". Where's the fairness? It ead to me that you think such hostilities, because they are to be expected, should also be tolerated. I completey disagree.

by bookgrl on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, expected, but no, not tolerated (none / 0)

For the record, no, it is not ok to be hostile or judgmental about someone else's parenting, as long as we're not talking about an abuse situation.

Yes, I have learned to expect that some people will be critical of certain aspects of my parenting or anyone's parenting. I have probably attended about 150 different meetings of various mothers' support groups, and I hear these kinds of stories again and again. Feeding, sleeping, discipline, schooling--whatever you do, count on someone to tell you why you are doing it all wrong.

I don't think this kind of hostility is ok. It can be very hurtful, especially for new moms.

In my experience, I've found it's easier to ignore hostile looks or comments than to get outraged every time someone says something inappropriate about my parenting.

My sister tends to stew over obnoxious comments from other people about how she parents her daughter, but I advise her and my friends just to expect a few of those and shrug them off when they happen.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I was just relating my sister's (none / 0)

experience. She hasn't stewed over anything. I saw it first hand, and I related it because i found it relevant to the diary. Really, what's your problem? Here's my original post:

Great diary. (none / 0)
My sister had a horrible time, real complications, trying to breastfeed her first baby, and decided it was best to forgo it with the second. People were openly hostile to her(sadly, particularly other women).

Seems to me the decent response to my comment would have be something along the lines of "Gee, that's unfortunate".

by bookgrl on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, both of you (2.00 / 0)

FWIW, it doesn't sound like either of you were trying to make your comments come off a criticisms of other parenting styles and you both made points that stand on their own.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:08:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

getting advice from strangers (none / 0)

It is true, when you're pregnant you suddenly start getting all kinds of advice. I found some of the advice useful. I just ignored what was not useful or didn't feel right for me.

Some of the advice was so good for my quality of life that I do tend to pass it on, even to pregnant women I don't know well.

I am sorry if anyone is offended, but I wish people had told me early on in my first pregnancy that if I tried to stay extra-hydrated I would get fewer headaches, or that I would feel less fatigued if I ate 90 to 100 grams of protein every day.

I didn't learn those things until I switched to a midwife halfway through the pregnancy.

Many women don't get this kind of very basic advice from their OB-GYNs. I don't think it's so terrible to pass along tips to pregnant women if it will improve their health and/or make them feel better.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:31:05 AM EST

Re: getting advice from strangers (none / 0)

There's a fine line for everything. I think we could probably agree that advice crosses over into orders and reprimands far more often for pregnant women and mothers. I'm sure you know how to pass on advice in a genuinely helpful and supportive way, but it probably wouldn't be terrible if more people who wanted to be helpful paused to think twice about what they were going to say and how it might come across.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:05:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am sure that is true (none / 0)

and a lot of the time I do wait until a friend asks me for advice. But some things I try to mention ASAP, like the hydration thing. I had so many headaches during my first pregnancy before I learned about that.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

taking fish oil is better than eating fish (none / 0)

Some brands of fish oil are third-party certified to be free of mercury and other heavy metals. My midwife recommended that I take fish oil during and after pregnancy rather than eat lots of fish.

I also found that taking fish oil while breastfeeding cleared up my baby's eczema, without having to use heavy creams or prescription drugs.

I pass along this tip to pregnant women I know, as well as to women who mention that their babies are struggling with eczema. I don't know if anyone has been offended by this. Many people have thanked me for the advice and said they never heard that before.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:34:43 AM EST

all-time best blog post on nursing in public (none / 0)

is here:

http://mamamojo.wordpress.com/2007/09/12 breastfeeding-in-public-warning-offensi ve-content

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:43 AM EST

Natasha, here's another angle to consider (none / 0)

I understand what you are saying about the subtext of some articles about what pregnant women "should" do, and I totally agree that the media ignore many huge problems faced by pregnant women.

However, when I got pregnant I wanted to read absolutely everything I could about pregnancy and birth. I was interested in all of those articles about what kinds of foods would be healthy or unhealthy for me, for instance.

That's not to say that I slavishly did everything I read about in the paper, but I did want to read about the latest research on healthy lifestyles for pregnant women.

It never occurred to me to be offended that the authors and editors of those pieces were treating me like I was no longer an adult.

I have friends who also became voracious readers on this subject after they got pregnant.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:51:10 AM EST

About that other angle (none / 0)

That's fair. People need to share information about health issues and I read a heck of a lot about anything I discuss with my doctor or consider for my own health, and I've never had a kid. But it's the tone it often takes, particularly when other people get hold of it beyond the initial articles written. I think you know what I mean.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 08:50:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (2.00 / 1)

Actually I'm pretty sure parenting is rather unsightly. It also sucks.

Which is why I appreciate my parents all the more... ...and never ever want to live with them again.

by MNPundit on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:13:43 AM EST

well, I enjoy parenting (none / 0)

but you're right, people do tend to appreciate our parents more when we have more of an adult perspective on them.

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, I enjoy parenting (none / 0)

Expectant Mothers must always be accorded the respect and ability to make to choose their own path. Personally, Natasha I find this whole "tips for that" and "solutions for your credit" phenomena on Yahoo and the like to be annoying. Popular media needs to stop babysitting adults. Expectant Mothers included.

by Todd Bennett on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 06:03:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't know that this is just about pregnant wome (none / 0)

Should we eat eggs? Should we not eat eggs? Cholesterol? Good fat? Bad fat? Don't smoke (I agree). Put that beer down. You drink whole milk?

I agree that it is more prevalent for pregnant women and that there is a sexist component that relates more to women, but it carries into parenthood for both parents, too. Tuna has mercury, so keep it away from your kid! You gave her chocolate milk? Too many sweets. Beef is bad. Beef is good.

This whole culture is obsessed with breaking down everything we eat and put in our bodies and determining the percentage benefit/detriment is has for us.

by nathan on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 08:02:58 AM EST

Attitude and frequency (2.00 / 1)

The obsession, imo, stems from the fact that it's pretty obvious that our food is poisoning us. And then there's the obsession with impossible beauty standards, where being skinny is assumed to be the height of ambition.

Women get a lot more of this type of advice than men, pregnant women a lot more than most other women. And it isn't just about the food. That's sort of a stand-in for a range of issues.

What does society ask of, or more usually tell, pregnant women and mothers vs. what it asks of itself in relation to them?

I realize, as you'll see if you click on the "responsibility" link in the post, that the idea of us all being in this together has been systematically attacked in respect to the majority of people. But rarely is it so in evidence, and so harmful, as it is with the expectations placed on mothers at a time when they're facing a whole range of new challenges.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 08:58:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attitude and frequency (2.00 / 2)

Good point.

This is not at all to minimize your point or to suggest that expectant fathers are in the same boat -- 'cause we aren't -- but it is amazing how little information there is out there for an expectant father on how to care for a baby or even help your pregnant wife (at least wife in my situation). Seriously, thank goodness we had a great OB because without her I would have had to rely on the filmstrips they showed in high school to understand anything my wife was going through.

Usually the only advice you can find on helping make it easier on your partner is in comedic opinion pieces by Paul Reiser and the like that boil down to, "Be patient and get them whatever they ask for." That's nice for a butler, but not so great for someone who wants to actually be there and work through things.

As for taking care of kids, every website is for mommies, every magazine uses the feminine pronoun, every book on the first year talks about the mother for 723 pages and the father for nine. You watch TV shows on kids and you only see women hosting or guesting, all the talk is about mothering and little on fathering.

You begin to feel a little left out, and alone in this. I had to pick up a lot of the early slack because my daughter refused to breast feed and my wife had postpartum depression. There was no help for any of that from a father or husband's perspective, and that made it all the harder on my wife because she felt even more isolated. I took about a month off from work, and it took a lot of time for my wife and I to figure out how to pull off equal parenting -- three years later we're still working on it!

And it continues even years later. When my mother in law calls at 8 p.m. and I answer the phone she asks if my wife is putting my daughter to bed, assuming three years in that I don't do that (we do it together). Mothers at parks gather in groups and either ignore the fathers or talk to us like we are kids ourselves. As I noted above, when alone in public with the kid I get asked if I am babysitting. Clerks in kids clothing stores ask if my wife is around.

It sucks with the attitude and frequency that women get pressured with all these marching orders, and I agree.

It also sucks that the attitude facing fathers are often belittling and assume that the only reason we are parenting is because the mother was not available, and that there is a torrent of advice for mothers and only a trickle for fathers.

This is NOT to minimize or question anything said about how expectant and existent mothers are treated. It's just because I wanted to whine about my own frustrations. :-)

by nathan on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:51:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you make a lot of good points (none / 0)

and it's sadly true that fathers are not welcome at many parenting support groups. I don't know if you have a local chapter of Attachment Parenting International, but that is one group that welcomes fathers at meetings and understands that a dad taking care of kids is not "baby-sitting."

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by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:01:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bravo. (2.00 / 1)

Luckily we live in a community that is liberal enough to put up with the occasional screaming baby and my wife breastfeeding her in public. But, you make a point in a way that I hadn't thought of before. When the baby is in utero, it is "everyone's business", like with diet and care. But, once the baby comes out, it becomes a nuisance to those people.

Except liberals I hope.

Pro-birth vs. Pro-life.

BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics

by Robert P on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:56:12 AM EST

Re: Bravo. (none / 0)

WOW I REALLY LIKE THAT

PRO BITH VERSUS PRO LIFE

WOW !!! THAT IS GREAT!!! Did you think of that?
I am part of a group that tries to help women have the baby, not rail on and on about legislation that should really just be about public health.

I work to make abortions rare. This is WAY cool.

by Trey Rentz on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

This post is way over-the-top. First of all, articles are run all the time with headlines like "Should You Drink More Wine?" or "Should You Quit Eating Transfats?" or whatever. It's not pregnant-woman-specific at all. The premise of these headlines is that most people want to be healthy, in which case they "should" do what's best for their health. If there are more articles about pregnant women along these lines, it's probably because pregnant women are really, really concerned about being healthy for the good of their babies, and so want to read about these things. That's not a normative claim, it's an empirical one, and there's nothing wrong with it.

I think to use these articles as evidence that "A woman gets pregnant and she stops being an individual adult in many people's eyes" is silly.

Second, I will happily join the crowd that doesn't like to be around crying babies. But does that mean I think people are "bad moms," or even that I don't realize that this is something we all have to accept about living in society? No. Does it mean I think moms shouldn't go out in public with their babies? Of course not. I've never even heard anyone who thinks that. Where are you getting this stuff? It's really not that surprising (or important) that when a baby is wailing in a public place, people don't just love that.

by snaktime on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:29:14 AM EST

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

Again with the moms. Crying babies in public are not just the responsibility of the mom, but also the dad. As a dad, I prefer to see this kind of thing written as talking about parents, not mom.

I don't put up with my daughter crying in a restaurant or store. When she does I tell her that if she continues we're going outside, count to five in my head and then if she is still crying we go outside. When she was a baby I just picked her up and went.

The change of scene and the comfort of being held was usually enough when she was a baby, and the change of scene and quiet time (it's like a time out) with her Dad calms her down now. Then we go back in and finish eating or shopping.

It is incredibly discourteous to the rest of the world to have a screaming baby at the table and see the parents just ignoring the kid. It's easy to ignore your own kid because you are so used to the noise, but the rest of the patrons in the store/restaurant aren't used to your kid and didn't come out to hear it.

Yes, kids freak out and cry and scream sometimes, and that is perfectly natural. But that doesn't mean the parents shouldn't do what they can to minimize the impact on the other people around them.

by nathan on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

You miss the larger point about the way this advice and information is specifically communicated to women by the people that they meet out in the world. I'm not calling for an end to articles talking about scientific studies of dietary guidelines. I read a fair number of them myself. It's an issue of degree and tone.

Nor am I using these articles as basis for a claim that women lose a lot of their individuality when they become mothers. I'm basing that claim on the persistent personal reports and objective examples of how pregnant women and mothers are treated that differ from how they were treated before their first pregnancy. You think I just pulled this out of thin air? No. I actually, you know, talk to a lot of women. And read female writers. And read about gender and pregnancy and parenthood discrimination.

As to crying babies: Yeah, you've never heard anyone say that they don't think babies should be brought out in public. But have you ever seen someone give a parent, usually a mother, a nasty look when their baby starts crying? You think that doesn't perhaps communicate something? Or that it's considered 'unprofessional' to bring babies to any sort of business function, meeting, etc.? Business society is the power social circle, and if you have a baby in tow, you had better leave it behind. Nobody really has to say very much for that to be understood.

When you exclude babies, who unfortunately cry sometimes, from being present at a significant range of adult activities, you exclude their primary caregivers from those activities. A society that's built on a model of adult interaction as public and acceptable, and child-adult interaction as private and a nuisance, and in which women are by default the primary caregivers, is inherently gender-biased.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

for what it's worth (none / 0)

I have brought my babies to board and committee meetings and many other places that some might assume to be for grown-ups only. Even now, when my kids are too old to sit on my lap through a board meeting, I sometimes bring my toddler to lunch "meetings," depending on the restaurant.

This is easy for me because my board and other commitments are voluntary, so I don't have to worry about pissing off the boss or looking unprofessional by bringing a baby along. Also, I was always quick to leave the room if my baby became a distraction.

But I didn't have a problem with people not being supportive on this--if anything, fellow board or committee members were disappointed when my babies "aged out" of coming to meetings with me.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We need more like that (none / 0)

Sounds like a community 'best practice' suitable for replication.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 03:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (2.00 / 0)

i've got to say, while i am in total awe of the demands made on parents with small children, i think there are places that simply aren't baby-friendly. recently, i was at a grant-seminar of an arts foundation. this function was mandatory for all artists seeking funding. One of the artists arrived with her baby in tow (1 yr give or take). Now, i love children and especially babies, but i've got to say that it bothered me to have this kid crawling and running around at my feet while i was trying to learn the vital information in this meeting that's necessary for my livelihood.

That might sound selfish, but at the same time, do you think that the mother actually took in as much information from the meeting as she would have if she wasn't constantly keeping an eye out for disaster in the (thoroughly non-childproofed) conference room? In fact, she had to leave early as, after more than an hour, her baby (understandably) got fed up with the constant droning on about fiscal sponsors and started to pitch a fit. With all this said, i think rather than wage the fight that babies should be allowed everywhere and let's childproof the world and all that, wouldn't we be serving new parents better to establish truly universal and affordable childcare that would allow them continue functioning in the "adult" sectors of their lives?

In many contries in Europe, quality childcare is sponsored by the state and is available for literally cents a day. Maternity leave also frequently lasts for three or four years (rather than a ridiculous few weeks), and new parents receive in-home visits from professionals who help them adjust to the new demands of parenthood. Now that's what i call family values!

by bluedavid on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 04:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

ps. I don't mind breast feeding in public at all. On that one, I'm in total agreement. People opposed to that are prudes and need to grow up.

by snaktime on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:30:54 AM EST

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

This from a person whose name is snaktime! oy vey. The things we see at myDD.

Well as a male I just wanted to say that I could care less about nursing in public, its cool.

I mean I radar in on certain aspects of women's anatomy but in all seriousness with a cute little baby in tow the equation changes somehow.

by Trey Rentz on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:36:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

I sort of feel like this whole thread has missed the point of this research as I understand it - but then maybe I misunderstood the Diary's point.

Mercury in fish is a problem because of industrial pollution and especially coal fired power plants. Mercury is a very serious toxin, especially so for mothers and children.

My gut is that this latest round of research is using a somewhat legitimate concern about maternal nutrition to undermine the effort to stop pollution at the source rather than try and find supplements or the odd species of expensive fish not yet polluted.

The research is helpful, and as a new parent, the reading and info is both critical and ridiculously endless.

But whether you think information in a report or a casual bystander is bad manners, or part of some basic discrimination and patriarchy still oppressing 52% of society, the other point should not be missed: THE POWER COMPANIES ARE KILLING US AND OUR CHILDREN WITH THEIR POLLUTION.

Wow. I shouted online after keeping my cool for so long. Why? Because sometimes it is so hard to remember the really big stuff when you are trying to parse out who insulted who and who's reading and comprehension skills are better and who is the better mother/progressive/thinker/blogger etc.

Bottom line, we can fix the mercury problem in fish, and if we all attacked that problem we wouldn't have to worry about all the latest research on this. We might also take a bite out of global warming along the way.

Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra

by Orlando on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:34:28 AM EST

Wow I totally agree here (none / 0)

I think the author of this post gets a very important truth. And it also happens to be one that helps me to be an independent, and to unify with my very evangelical, very orthodox and very catholic, and very republican friends.

This is such a simple truth, but such an important one.

Good post!!

by Trey Rentz on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:34:59 AM EST

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (2.00 / 1)

This is a 21st Century Tale of unbelievable legislative meddling in women's lives.

In Virginiia this past session, the House of Delegates voted 75 to 25 (that's right 75 yes to 25 no--3/4 of our House have lost it) to make "causing" a woman's own miscarriage a felony, punishable by five years in prison. Women in Virginia were only saved from these crazies by the state Senate. "Cause" was very general and vague, but indicated anything at all which led to miscarriage. This included drugs or other means. With such a vague definition, women who had a medical miscarriage (the medical establishment has long erroneously and politically labeled such a "spontaneous abortion"), were rendered crime suspects.

Aside from the dubious effort to back-handedly criminalize abortion, the radical-wrong legislature label women criminals for any lost pregnancy. With one out of five pregnancies ending in abortion and with a large proportion of women who lose at least one pregnancy, there is a huge potential for rounding up women ala "The Handmaid's Tale." But I am not making this up.

The effort to control women, their bodies, their private actions, their eating habits, exercise, work and more is a real step backwards.

Ann Coulter recently quipped that women should be denied the vote because then Dems would never win again. This attempted action by the Virginia legislature was so much more efficient (sarcasm) because it not only rendered women felons (who can no longer vote), but locked them away in our run-away prison-industrial complex, which supports so many Republicans with its donations.

Note also that a couple years ago, a former DFA blogger, Maura Kerney (who's now at MyLeftNutmeg) took on the Del Cosgrove on Nighline. It seems that Cosgrove wanted to make anyone who miscarried have to file a police report within 12 hours. Blogger routed Cosgrove, who pitifully whined about the unwanted attention his radical effort had wrought.

Born Questioning

by KathyinBlacksburg on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:45:17 AM EST

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

BTW, here's a somewhat strange find on the subject of the seafood article. Has anyone seen the story over at DU (Democratic Underground) showing that apparently, Mark's Penn's PR firm is involved with the group which fronted this "research"?

You'll recall that Mark Penn is the PR person Hillary Clinton has employed for her presidential run.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis cuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address =389x1993136

Born Questioning

by KathyinBlacksburg on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:11:50 AM EST

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

Here's the link concerning the firm behind the seafoood news blitz.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2 0601101&sid=axA77zz5n5sA&refer=j apan

Born Questioning

by KathyinBlacksburg on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:14:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

Yes. The same group of folks who are fronting the coalition for clean and safe energy, an effort by the nuclear industry to promote itself and seed 30 plus new nuke plants around the country.

http://www.cleansafeenergy.org/

These people are the worst aspect of American politics.

Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra

by Orlando on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

As a currently pregnant woman, I just want to point out that you couldn't possibly understand if you have never been pregnant the frequency of unsolicited advice you receive. I know most of it is well meaning, but it does really start to wear. Pregnant women are already pretty stressed out by the enormous responsibility of housing a little fetus, and all the advice just adds to the stress. I was particularly stressed out about advice about eating. I lost a fair amount of weight right at the end of the first trimester/start of the second, and had a huge drop in appetite. It was really scary. I finally got myself eating enough calories, only to have everyone pestering me about whether I was eating "enough protein", "enough calcium", "too many carbs". It did not help. I have found it very weird how unlike a lot of other big things I have gone through in life, just how visible pregnancy is, how exposed you are to everyone's eyes and judgment.

For those of you who are eager to give advice (like the woman upthread with her advice on hydration) what I find the most comfortable way to hear advice is not "You should do this", but just as you telling a story about your own pregnancy. "For me one of the hardest things about being pregnant was the headaches. I finally solved that problem by drinking water." That way the pregnant woman can take it or leave it without feeling like she is being told what to do by yet another person. I think it is especially stressful to get so much advice in the first pregnancy because you don't yet have a ton of confidence in the decisions you are making, so it can be very undermining when people keep saying "you should be doing this".

by mila on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:50:06 AM EST

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (none / 0)

I have no doubt that pregnant woman are inundated with unsolicited advice, and the stranger-touching-the-belly thing is totally creepy. I just don't think there's a larger political point in these phenomena. People are nosy toward pregnant women. They get excited about someone having a baby and want to help or touch or whatever. Inappropriate? Yes. Evidence of patriarchy? I really don't think so.

by snaktime on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Inappropriate liberties (none / 0)

The appropriateness of behavior depends on two factors: intimacy and status. This is made explicit in languages that have formal and informal pronouns depending on age or status.

When people take 'inappropriate' liberties with strangers, they're expressing a lack of respect that they wouldn't dare show towards someone they considered a non-intimate peer or a superior. The process of becoming intimate with someone is a process of allowing greater liberties with personal space, and mutually dropping the need for certain outward shows of respect (formal language, maintaining physical distance) because the sentiment so formalized becomes understood and assumed. When someone of greater status takes liberties that don't cross the line into harassment, it's supposed to come across as affable, because they're the party to the relationship that can risk lowering the barriers to closer communication.

Acting as though you have the right to take liberties with someone's personal space in the abscence of intimacy can only be a sign of disrespect. It isn't okay to touch other people's bodies without permission. It's a disrespect shown particularly to women, particularly when they're more vulnerable than usual, and that manifests itself most publicly in this instance. But at root, it's not different in kind from the public attitude that a drunk woman's body is more available for sex without her consent.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, I agree (none / 0)

and I do tend to phrase things in terms of what helped me when I was pregnant. Like, I was a lot less fatigued after I started eating 90-100 grams of protein a day. Or if a woman complains about being itchy, I mention that acupuncture during pregnancy took care of that problem.

I didn't have to deal with strangers touching my belly, but I know lots of women get that all the time. It is so weird!

Congratulations on your pregnancy, by the way.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

by desmoinesdem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great job (none / 0)

Because chicks really dig having the company of no one besides an infant whose vocabulary consists of burps and earsplitting wails. If dad puts up with it though, he's a hero.

Excellent work on slamming fathers, Natasha. Let's see--we want men to be more involved in the lives of their children, but when they are, we're going to be snide and sarcastic about their participation. Newsflash--most men don't want any recognition for their role in taking care of their kids. Yeah, it's hard, and time-consuming, and sometimes frustrating, but we knew it was there when we decided with our wives and partners to have kids.

Every father I know with young kids takes part in their kids' lives and contributes to the household in the mundane and necessary ways that women have traditionally been burdened with--making meals, doing laundry, helping with homework, going to doctor's appointments during work hours, etc. Not a one of them wants any recognition for it, and in fact they would probably say "recognition for what?" if the question were put to them.

But neither do they deserve your sarcastic b.s., either.

If you are trying to build support for policies that are more favorable for parenting in this country, such as paid leave, you have a really bizarre way of going about it.

by rayspace on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:44:34 PM EST

Re: Great job (none / 0)

Natasha didn't "slam" fathers, dipshit.

Invest in nature

by NCDem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:57:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great job (none / 0)

Read it again. She's pretty clear that fathers seek praise for whatever they do for their children, while women toil away while enduring criticism and worse. No doubt the role of mothers in taking care of children (often while having to also work outside the home) is devalued and underappreciated. But it doesn't get better for them by going after fathers who try to do their parts. The reality of modern family life is complicated, and to revert to stereotypes of the dad-who-can't-change-a-diaper moves us backward, not forward.

by rayspace on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For Pete's sake (none / 0)

I didn't mean that they seek praise for it, I said they get praise for it. That's what privilege is. That's what it means. It means you get things you either didn't earn, or get things more easily when you try for them. In this case, it means that people think that dads are heroes for doing what women are expected to do as a matter of course.

I am not responsible for the fact that people think that way and if you think that I approve of it, then you weren't paying attention.

And yeah, I posted that link to David Neiwert's piece on being a stay at home dad way up high in the comments because I don't value that at all. FCOL. This is about society's attitudes towards parenting, which you would perhaps have gathered from what could only have been the deep, smouldering sarcasm of saying that women exclusively really like being alone a lot with only a crying baby for company. Read. Just read.

by Natasha Chart on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 03:55:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For Pete's sake (none / 0)

What "people" think that fathers are heroes? I mean, I personally keep my shiny metal for dishwashing right next to my ribbon for doing the kids' laundry, and my citation for changing diapers goes right where everyone can see it, but not all fathers get that same recognition.

Of course I was paying attention. You're simply not willing to admit to what your words imply.

Society gives no credit to either gender for parenting. Women bear the brunt of both parenting and criticism for whatever goes wrong with their children, but it doesn't make that better to demean what fathers are trying to do.

by rayspace on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 04:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For Pete's sake (none / 0)

In an article I assign for my introductory sociology classes, Judith Lorber suggests that when we smile approvingly at fathers who are "changing the role of fathers," we are "doing gender." We reward fathers for doing what in our culture is exceptional. "We" means men and women both. In this way, we reinforce the gender role expectations of our culture. But in this formulation the motivations of the individual father are absent. The focus here is on the reaction of others in the society. Fathers have sharply increased their participation in childcare, and their participation in housework somewhat. The somewhat is probably accounted for by the fact that while married fathers and married mothers are approaching "gender equality" in terms of total hours worked, for fathers, more of it is paid work. This points up the enduring structural inequalities that result in unequal pay for equal work. But see, it's easier to decry dads who are "heroes" than to talk about those. If we don't get better at telling stories about social structure, then the right will win every time, and true "family values" will lose.

by macpanther on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should pregnant women ...? (2.00 / 0)

OK...having read all the comments etc., i've still got to say something that may not be very popular. The reason pregnant women and parents get more outside attention than a solitary adult is because they are responsible for someone's welfare in addition to their own. Children are basically at the mercy of their parent's parenting skills. They are helpless to change the situation into which they are born. That's why society takes such an interest in their welfare (and why bush is such an asshole for screwing schip, incidentally).

Nothing is more harrowing than watching bad parenting in action. I remember as a child scratching wounds into my palms one sunday at church as i heard a kid about my age getting the hell beat out of him in the lobby just behind me. How many times have i been sitting on the train and heard a young mother say to her child "i'm gonna fuck you up when we get home" (usually for some minor transgression)? How many times have i seen pregnant women drinking or smoking, or out smoking weed or doing drugs? Is it really the right thing to do to keep your mouth closed?

I fight with myself about this all the time. Usually, my silence carries the day, as i figure my advice would fall on deaf ears. I just make my mean sour face and try to look as disapproving as possible. That doesn't mean it makes me feel any better.

Now, I can understand pregnant women who are uncomfortable getting constant advice about how they should act, etc., and especially if it's for something that seems slight or trivial. However, it might be annoying, but in most cases it's because people care about them and their child. In fact, I believe if every pregnant woman and new parent had someone who cared enough about them to offer advice, a lot of children would have it much easier.

by bluedavid on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 04:45:15 PM EST

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