The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem

I'd like to take a moment to address one point on the latest St. Anselm (.pdf) New Hampshire poll that I didn't mention in my write up last night: Ron Paul.

According to the survey, Paul is polling at 7 percent among likely Granite State Republican voters, a statistic that is somewhat noteworthy in and of itself (particularly given that Fred Thompson is polling below him at 5 percent). But the number becomes even more meaningful in consideration that Paul is refusing to rule out a third party bid.

During an MSNBC interview Wednesday, Rep. Ron Paul was asked if he would run for president as a third-party candidate. Paul replied, "No, I don't plan to run in a third party. That's not my goal. But if we have a candidate that loves the war and loves the neocon position of promoting--" Interviewer Norah O'Donnell cut Paul off at that point, and did not return to the topic during the rest of the interview.

Could Ron Paul have a real effect upon a general election as a third party candidate? I don't recall having seen polling specifically listing him as a third party candidate against named Republicans and Democrats, so I can't be entirely sure. But given that polling indicates that a significant portion of the Republican base is at least somewhat against the Iraq War and that Stephen Colbert pulls in double-digit support as a third party candidate, most of which coming from the GOP candidate, there is reason to believe that a lot of folks on the right might be willing to stomach voting for a third party candidate in the 2008 general election.



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Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

"Loves the neocon position?" Could that be a veiled threat at a Giuliani nomination, as Giuliani's fopo advisors are almost all neocons like Podhoertz?

I don't know how much Paul would split the GOP vote as a third party candidate. I feel more like he'd bring in non-voters and coalesce third party voters. He'd certainly pull off a few GOP voters, but I think we'd lose some anti-Patriot Act folks, too.


Ever heard of a Blue Moose Democrat?
by Nathan Empsall on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:22:01 PM EST

A third-party Paul (2.00 / 1)

Could take 3-4% (or more) from the GOP nominee, while simultaneously keeping the Democratic nominee honest on Iraq.

Sounds like a win-win for progressives.


by tparty on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:27:48 PM EST

Re: A third-party Paul (2.00 / 1)

If the Democratic nominee is Hawkary Clinton and she is still talking about "all options on the table" with Iran, Paul would pull at least as many Dem votes for whom warmongering is more unacceptable than whatever whacky domestic policy he has that he'll never get past a Dem Congress in a million years anyway.  In a Clinton-Guiliani-Paul race with Clinton threatening Iran with more war, I'll vote Paul.

It would be great to see Guiliani get the GOP nomination and then have Paul and the Libertarians split off because of Giuliani's warmongering and have Dobson and his theocrats split off because of Rudy's pro-gay pro-abortion stances.  The whole Republican coalition could be shattered.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 08:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Take a brief(very very very brief) stop by Redstate(then shower) and you will see how much they hate Ron Paul and his supporters(they call them moRons).


by msstaley on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:39:54 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Funny you should say that.  I go by RedState and lurk 2-4 times per week and feel I should have a hazmat suit on just to be reading.


by InigoMontoya on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 06:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

I read Red State almost every day.  I was banned from posting after 3 posts, though.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 08:26:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Where would his money come from?  He could do some damage if he could fund his own campaign (like Ross Perot).  I agree with tparty --> small percentage, not unlike Nader.  Hopefully could tip the balance.

As far as taking some Dem-leaning libertarians, I don't think it will be a problem.  My intuition is that these folks will not show up to the polls at all without a candidate they believe in.  These libertarians/potential Paul-voters are not so Dem-leaning that they would show up to the polls to vote for Hillary or Obama or Edwards in a two-candidate general.


by Dr Octagon on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:40:18 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

I think he'd be much more of a threat to Republican candidates than Nader was to Democratic candidates in the past. There has been a significant backlash against the "neoconservative" agenda of the Bush administration, especially among the Old Guard (epitomized by William F. Buckley) and conservative youth (tend to be more libertarian). I'd say he would capture ~%5.

On a side note, for comprehensive non-partisan campaign coverage and candidate profiles (including an actively updated section on Ron Paul) please check out a cool NEW site by Harvard students: http://www.votegopher.com which NYT's chief political correspondent called "unusually extensive" for a site of its type.


by alsherban on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:41:58 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Huckabee & Paul have the most interesting candidacies of the Republicans. Huckabee in Iowa and Paul in NH could place in the top three.  That's going to give them momentum. The best case scenario is a long Republican brokered convention with Paul being forced out of the hall.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:47:55 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

We can't talk though. If Paul gets run out of town like that, it's almost as certain that Nader will make good on is threats for a challenge to Hillary.


by risenmessiah on Fri Oct 26, 2007 at 02:47:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Republicans have a long history with the John Birch Society. I don't see why they wouldn't embrace a Bircher now. Paul would definitely siphon some votes off from a gay-lovin' "collectivist" from New York City.


by hwc on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:51:33 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Don't be too sure he will not take many independent, anti-war and fiscally conservative Dems. And there are many of those in Blue states such as NY & CA. Ron Paul is the ONLY candidate with an unequivocal stand on the Iraq occupation and the cause of the hatred in the Middle East. He's raised $7 million in the last quarter.

Stephen Colbert, IMO, is polling that segment of the population. A third party candidate is a very viable option in todays political climate where the beltway Repubs are tied to the Bush-Cheney hip and will do nothing to stop the meat-grinder in Iraq and the beltway Dems in Congress are actively supporting through their actions the shredding of the Constitution (FISA, AG investigations, contempt, etc) and although they talk a big game are voting to fund the occupation at ever higher levels of funding.

I think a 3rd party candidate will draw from a different demographic this time. Independents that are tired of the beltway elite who only work for their corporate paymasters and who want a candidate with a definite stance towards preserving the Bill of Rights by keeping the national security intelligence apparatus out oof our homes, email and phones and will also get our troops out of the Iraq quagmire with clear and definite timeline.


by ab initio on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 05:52:07 PM EST

Paul could be a problem for Democrats (2.00 / 1)

The far lefters with green streaks could ignore his anti-gay, anti-union, anti-Dept. of Education views and run off to vote for him simply because of his stance on the war.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 06:01:53 PM EST

Re: Paul could be a problem for Democrats (none / 0)

And you say it like it's a bad thing?

The President has precedence over Congress historically in areas of foreign policy, for better or for worse. Congress will end up going with the executive on Iraq and Iran measures, by and large, which is where Ron Paul is "good," while preventing him from doing much damage domestically.

So if ending the war is the foremost issue in a Democrat's mind and the Democratic candidate doesn't look like he or she will, it's totally reasonable for that Democrat to vote for Paul. I don't think any of the frontrunners currently look worse than Paul on the war, but we'll have to wait until general election time to see how far to the Right the nominee runs before making a decision.


by Zephyrus on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 06:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Paul could be a problem for Democrats (none / 0)

anti-gay, anti-union, anti-Dept. of Education views are a bad thing for sure ... especially when spewed by a probabletoe tapper.


by dpANDREWS on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 11:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (2.00 / 2)

Norah O'Donnell is a nasty fucking neocon corporate whore.  She's been in bed with the Bush regime since DAY ONE.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 06:25:47 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)


This is a false Diary.
I saw the MSNBC interview and you can see it on YouTube.com.  Paul never once implied he would run as a 3rd-Party candidate.

Conversly, Ron Paul has said many times that he has no intention of running as a 3rd-Party and has said that it is impossible because 3rd-party candidates can't get on the ballots and are banned from the General Election debates.

What part of the word no is unclear here?



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 06:30:25 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

The part beginning "But ..."


by BingoL on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 07:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Saying you that can't ever support a pro-War GOP Nominee is not the same as running as a 3rd-Party (which Paul has denied).



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 08:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Oh, you're absolutely correct, except--


by BingoL on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 09:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

The quote in this diary is 100% accurate.  Click here and go to the 3:20 mark if you don't believe me.

What's funny about DerekLarsson is that I cannot ever recall anyone else managing to support every single fringe candidate, all at the same time.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 07:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)


The quote is accurate, but your interpretation of this quote is totally false.

Ron Paul has said that he will not endorse or vote for any GOP nominee or candidate that is pro-War, pro-Occupation, pro-Bombing-Iran, etc.

But he has also said very clearly that he himself has no interest in himself being a 3rd-Party candidate.

So, to create a Diary that portrays Paul's statements about not endorsing any pro-War people as punching a ticket for a 3rd-Party is false and has no merit.

Paul isn't a 3rd-Party candidate.
He is, however, polling at 7% in the latest New Hampshire poll (Thompson is at 5%) and gaining ground.





For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 08:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (2.00 / 1)

I don't think there will be any question it would hurt the GOP more. Democrats that are praising him right (which actually aren't that many) now are doing it basically for Iraq war and Consitutional issues. They don't know how horrific he is on healthcare, education, unions, civil rights, women's rights, and so on. He is an extreme right wing economic conservative. That will appeal mostly to Libertarian Republicans.


by Christopher Lib on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 06:39:27 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (2.00 / 1)

Interviewer Norah O'Donnell cut Paul off at that point, and did not return to the topic during the rest of the interview.

    Folks, I can't stress this enough--the NoronBot 2K7 is hard-wired to interrupt any serious train of thought upon detection with a harsh cackle which mimics human laughter. It's a feature, not a bug, incorprated from the earlier prototype of the Chris Matthews 2K.


by Ron Thompson on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 06:55:51 PM EST

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Well actually, she asked him who he was referring to.  He didn't really say, he just referred in general to the neocon advisors who got us into the present war.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 07:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Republicans' Ron Paul Problem (none / 0)

Ron Paul could have a tremendous impact on the race as a third party candidate, assuming he doesn't win the Republican nomination.  He already has more volunteers in local Meetup groups than all of the other candidates combined -- now over 60,000 in over 1,000 groups.

You can't just look at his poll numbers now and expect them to remain unchanged 12 months from now.  His campaign has been growing in a steady upward trend since March in every metric:  polling, fundraising, volunteers, web traffic, YouTube views, etc.  He started out at 0-1% everywhere and is starting to hit 5-7% in some polls now, with very low name recognition.

12 months from now, he could well be in the 15-20% range.  I think he would draw pretty equally from both parties, and very well among independents.  He already is.

If the two major parties nominated Giuliani and Clinton, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Ron Paul would at least make anti-war, pro-civil liberties voters consider him seriously.


by Lex on Thu Oct 25, 2007 at 07:45:51 PM EST


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