Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary

The Rudy Giuliani campaign must be getting a bit desperate. In an attempt to convince voters that Giuliani is more electable than the other leading Republican candidates, the campaign has put out a series of maps (available via The Politico) purporting to show what states would and would not be on the map in potential matchups against Hillary Clinton. According to these maps, the breakdown of electoral votes in matchups against Clinton looks like this:

GOP NomGOPDemSwing
Giuliani21018310
Thompson178248112
McCain178190170
Romney159274105

Here's the breakdown of the map Giuliani's strategists apparently see -- or more precisely want the Beltway establishment to believe they see -- in a head-to-head between their candidate and Clinton:

There is so much laughable about this map that it's almost difficult to know where to begin. With the exception of Massachusetts and Vermont (and apparently DC), Giuliani believes that every other state that went blue for both John Kerry and Al Gore -- and, heck, the six states other than Massachusetts that have voted for every Democratic nominee dating back to 1988 -- will be on the map for him, and that, what's more, a number of the states that have been quite competitive in recent elections will be off the table for the Democrats should he become the GOP nominee.

Let me start with that first point, looking in particular to four Southern states that will most certainly be in play in 2008 whether or not Giulani is the Republican nominee (and perhaps are in fact more likely to be in play for the Democrats given the potential that his candidacy would depress the White Evangelical vote in the region). To begin, I haven't seen much polling on West Virginia as of late, but I'd imagine that it could be in play in an election between Clinton and Giuliani (at least more so, one would imagine, than Louisiana).

But more to the point, both the broader trends and specific polling indicate that not only would Arkansas, Virginia and Florida be in play for the Democrats should Giuliani match up against Clinton next fall, the Democrats would in fact have an advantage in these states. Look at SurveyUSA polling out of Virginia from September, polling that shows the Democrats leading eight of nine matchups polled. In a head-to-head between Giuliani and Clinton, the Democrat leads 50 percent to 44 percent -- not much of a signal that this state would be out of reach for the Democrats. Or gander at polling conducted by Rasmussen Reports in Arkansas back in mid-August, polling that shows Clinton trouncing Giuliani 55 percent to 37 percent -- not too dissimilar a margin as the one by which Democrat Mike Beebe won the open-seat race for Governor in the state last fall. Or look also at polling Rasmussen conducted in Florida, also in mid-August. Not only does Clinton lead Giuliani by 5 points in the state, 49 percent to 44 percent, she performs better over Giuliani in the state than she does in other states he deems to be more competitive, like Colorado, Ohio and New Hampshire. (I might add that Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, and even Montana are other "red" states that could potentially be in play in a Giuliani/Clinton race -- certainly more than, say, Rhode Island, which Kerry won by 21 points in 2004.)

Not only are some of the states Giuliani deems out of reach for the Clinton most certainly not out of reach, a number of the states Giuliani claims to be in play most certainly are not. To take one quick example, two recent non-partisan surveys out of New York peg Clinton's lead over Giuliani in the state at between 20 and 25 points -- not much of a contest if you ask me.

Taken as a whole, these maps indicate that (1) the Giuliani campaign is delusional (which isn't terribly surprising) and (2) that the Giuliani campaign is getting worried about their candidate's chances (which is somewhat surprising) and as such are trying to oversell his electability. Not very confidence inspiring stuff.



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Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

This is a much better electoral map:

http://www.270towin.com/


by MAL Contends on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:05:40 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (2.00 / 2)

I saw NY as purple on that map, and I started laughing from there...


I don't care who's the nominee. I'm voting Democratic.
by JWR on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:08:23 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

Exactly.  I never realized that trailing Clinton by 12 pts in NY meant the state was going purple.  Mr. 9/11 can't make his shared home state competitive, yet the only states Clinton is carrying in this map are VT and MA.  This is terrific comic relief.


by John Mills on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Delusional (2.00 / 1)

Let them believe this map. I will laugh in their faces when Clinton wins the general against Giualini. (should they get the nomination)

Giuliani is desperate and the two things he is running on, strength on national security and the ability to beat Clinton is fading away.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:08:36 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Be fair.  It's not just MA and VT that he concedes.  That's only 15 and he concedes 18.  Obviously, he's given up on DC as well...


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:08:52 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

Deluded Americans, thought there were only three: Tom Tancredo who really thinks he has a shot; Barrack Obama, the most deluded and of course Steven Laffey who challenged Chaffee last year in RI and seriously believes in his book that he had a shot of winning the Senate seat for GOP. But, I am afraid Gulliani is the most deluded of them all!!


by Boilermaker on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

I'm sorry the last poll i saw out of ark Clinton was beating him by 10 points


by orin76 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:33:54 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

The polls I've seen show Clinton beating him in Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, Virginia, Ohio, New Mexico, Iowa and New Hampshire, with him tied in Florida and winning Colorado and Arizona.  This race has all the makings of a landslide, no matter who we nominate...


by frankies on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

National polls more reliable than state polls (none / 0)

I've seen many threads like this lately, breaking down electoral votes using state polls. IMO, that's flawed.

National polls are much more reliable and sensible than state polls. Take a consensus of the national polls and then apply the partisan index to see how each state is likely to fall, with sensible application that some states have changed since '04, i.e. Ohio and Virginia more Democratic.

Giuliani would alter the dynamic in some states. And it's true the partisan index may be more volatile in '08, since Democrats should have a big generic edge nationally, but it could tilt differently state to state due to the unusual nature of the matchup, a non-traditional GOP nominee vs. a female Democrat.

IMO, '08 is significantly more difficult to handicap in that regard. In '00 and '04 you had a standard GOP nominee and typical Democrat, with the nation at 50/50 unbendable intensity. That's far fewer variables than will be in play in '08, if it's Hillary vs. Rudy. But I still greatly prefer the national polls and historical relationship to state margins, than scattergun state polls that often make zero sense, particularly this far out.  Let's put it this way, I would know how to wager on many of those state polls. In many cases the true odds would not match the margin, or even the supposed leader.

The focus should always be on national polling. Those numbers are accurate and the dominoes fall logically. Just give me the national poll lead post-conventions '08.


by Gary Kilbride on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:40:22 PM EST

Re: National polls more reliable than state polls (none / 0)

Apparently the Giuliani campaign created that map. That alone means it is flawed.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wasn't referring to this specific map (none / 0)

Obviously it's preposterous.

IMO, the concept of embracing state polling to allocate electoral votes and likely outcomes is flawed. I realize it's a fun thing to do, and with so many permutations it can be much more varied than looking at standalone national polls.

But overall I think it's crap. It's not much different than taking polls apart by saying they include too many Rs or not enough Hispanics, etc. Yeah, you may bingo once in a while but in the vast majority of cases the polling consensus will be the most accurate representation and you're better off accepting that and using time/energy expenditure elsewhere.

Keep It Simple Stupid. National polls in presidential races are increasingly accurate and the national popular vote margin pinpoints the electoral result.


by Gary Kilbride on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National polls more reliable than state polls (none / 0)

The bottom line is that, based on the 06 elections, I would surmise that Dems start 08 with the advantage in all of Kerry's states, plus OH, IA, CO, and NM (the IN results in 06 were shocking, too, but I hesitate to move on that since they haven't voted Dem since LBJ...).  That's a pretty healthy margin to start with.  Given that other red states, including FL, VA, NV, and AR, will be competitive while the blue states they contested last time (PA, MN, NH) will not, it's definitely an uphill battle for the GOP already.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

If Giuliani says Louisiana is a swing state, Clinton must be way ahead there.

This map is crap.


by Namtrix on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 08:44:58 PM EST

HAHAHAHA!!! (none / 0)

What a fucking JOKE!

WA, OR, CA?  HAHAHAHA!!!  

Oh yea... we are 'swingers' here in WA!


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:35:58 PM EST

One other thing (none / 0)

maybe this is the righties way of getting the candidate they most want.

Doesn't it make you wonder why they righties are always talking about Hillary? How many swift boat ads do they have waiting in the wings?


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:37:42 PM EST

Re: One other thing (none / 0)

should have said...

"The democratic candidate they most want to run against."


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: swiftboating (2.00 / 1)

Umm, do you honestly think that there's any Democratic candidate that won't be swiftboated?  If so, I have some magic beans I'd like to sell you, along with a bridge and some land in Florida.

Indeed, one thing you have to concede about Hillary:  she's shown that she can take a punch and she's shown that she can give a punch.


by InigoMontoya on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: swiftboating (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.  Also, she is the most vetted of all the Dem candidates.  Exactly what is there in her background that hasn't come out in the past 16 yrs of right wing attacks?  I can't imagine there is much less that hasn't been thrown out before.


by John Mills on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: swiftboating (none / 0)

Oops.  Meant to say much left.


by John Mills on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: swiftboating (none / 0)

actually. I don't think karl rove and his crew have hit her hard yet.

Hillary is a 'Clinton'. The neo-cons hate the Clintons.

If she is "the chosen one" then we will see.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

all democrats will be attacked but hillary... (none / 0)

offers a target rich environment.  she alone elicits intense passions that will drive conservatives, regardless of who the gop nominates.  no one will unite the republican party like hillary.

edwards, richardson or obama would likewise be attacked -- but who would care?  republicans won't be able to raise buckets of doe to attack them, nor would attacking them trigger republicans' base emotion.  there's a reason why grover says:


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 06:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

You know this is a poorly done map, because Clinton would swipe Arkansas.  Something Giulliani has solidly in his column.  His strategists are delusional.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:27:48 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

Illinois purple?  Haahaaahaaaahaaaahaaaa!


by mlr701 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:34:10 PM EST

My thoughts exactly (none / 0)

Especially if Clinton or Obama run against him. SO not purple.


by kovie on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My thoughts exactly (none / 0)

Maryland purple? Hahaahaaahaaaa!


by Baltimore on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My thoughts exactly (none / 0)

Illinois purple - he actually thinks he stands a chance in Illinois? What the hell has he been smoking?

I can't see how anyone with half a brain can take this map seriously. But hey, his target audience is a bunch of republicans.


by bushsucks on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 12:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (2.00 / 2)

I don't know what you guys are talking about, this is a GREAT map. Just imagine if Giuliani actually ran a campaign on this basis. He would spread his money across all these "swing" states, and would actually spend time campaigning in CA and NY.


by thesleepthief on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 10:58:54 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (2.00 / 1)

I love that the Romney map gives Clinton the win.  I guess Rudy's most afraid of Romney in the primary, so he's gets painted as having the worst chances.


by wmlawman09 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:03:29 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

I don't know about that.  Regardless of Rudy's delusions, Romney actually does the worst of all Republicans in the head-to-heads with all of the Dems.  If Romney is nominated, he has ZERO chance.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

Perhaps Louisiana is a battleground to the Giuliani campaign because it has 9 electoral votes.

We all know Rudy's 2 favorite numbers.


I'm proud to be a Hillary Clinton supporter!
by takingbackamerica on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:17:00 PM EST

9 and 11, perhaps? (none / 0)

Don't forget 41...


by kovie on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

Gee wonder why he conceded Mass.


by NYMARJ on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:52:07 PM EST

Once you suspend the laws of reality and logic (2.00 / 1)

it's amazing what great things you can accomplish within the recesses of your febrile imagination...like, oh, such glorious accomplishments in the sands of the mideast, tax cuts that pay for themselves, and real estate bubbles that never end...

Oh, Rudy, you are now and will forever be the mayor of your own insanity.

Say hi to Judy from us--love that ring tone!


by kovie on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 11:56:56 PM EST

Re: Name Recognition? (none / 0)

Anyone have data on name recognition between Clinton and Guliani? I know it sounds preposterous to political junkies like us, but I'd bet a lot of people have forgotten who Guliani is, at least until they're reminded that he was NYC mayor in 2001 (9/11 was 6 years ago, and what has he done since then?). Most polls this far away from the election are usually heavily biased toward whoever has the highest name recognition.

I certainly don't think Guliani's map is anything more than his wet dream about how he'd like the election to play out, but I'd caution that Clinton's perceived strength in a lot of southern states (e.g. Tenn, Kentucky, etc.) may be due more to her higher name recognition than actual support.

Loon

P.S. Before the flames start, I'm not a Hillary basher; I think she's a great candidate. I just don't put much stock in state polls this early...


by loon on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:55:53 AM EST

Re: Name Recognition? (none / 0)

You made a fair statement.  After all, its a LONG General Election campaign... we saw Kerry and Gore trade places with Bush several times.  SO a LOT could happen.  At this point though, I don't think even a terrorist attack OR finding Bin Laden would save the GOP.  Too bad we have screwed up our advantage royally and not tied the GOP to the war well enough... what could have been a 10-15 year albatross around their necks is now nothing but wasted opportunity.  Our leaders are still a bit stupid.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

I don't support Hillary, but to even SUGGEST that Arkansas is out of play IF she wins the nom is laughable.  The ONLY way its out of play is if Thompson or Huckabee win the nom and even then, I have my doubts that it can't be won.  

So THIS is the kind of shit we'd see under a Guiliani Presidency...


by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:47:25 AM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

Every delusion deserves derision!!


by Boilermaker on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 10:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

Why don't we just skip this whole election nonsense and crown Rudy Emperor For Life now?


by rebop on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:07:36 AM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

I like to have what Rudy is smoking. I don't believe that Southern States- Arkansas,Florida,Virginia,West Virginia,North Carolina,Kentucky,Tennessee are red states. I dont believe that North Eastern States. Rhode Island,New York,and Maryland are purple states. Hillary has an advantage in RI,NY,and MD. California and Illinios are blue States. Hillary starts out with 140 ev Guiliania starts out with 125 ev. Guiliani has an advantage in Louisiana,Tennessee,Kentucky,North Carolina, 168 ev. Hillary has an advantage in Maine,Connecticut,New Jersey,Delaware,Washington,and Hawaii. 183ev. Lets suppose we give Guiliani - Remaining Southern States. Arkansas,Florida,Virginia and West Virginia. (219)ev. Lets suppose we give Hillary the remaining North Eastern States. New Hampshire and Pennsylvania. 208 ev. I will give Hillary- Michigan,Wisconsin,Minnesota,Iowa,New Mexico and Oregon. (264ev). I will give Guiliani- Arizona,Colorado,and Missouri. (249ev). Ohio and Nevada are the real battleground states
by nkpolitics on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 11:54:22 AM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

I think he's a "fool" but thought that about Bush and he still managed to win so no matter how ridiculous Rudy seems, and I think he is about stupid as it gets, I will not under-estimate him.


by reasonwarrior on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:13:23 PM EST

Re: Delusional Rudy Thinks He'd Cream Hillary (none / 0)

This is my favorite post, ever.


by AaronE on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 02:21:11 PM EST


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