Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass

General John Shalikashvili, former joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman, said in an op-ed this week that change is needed on our Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass (DADT) policy for gay servicemembers. (While the oft-dropped "Don't Pursue" has always been part of the policy, seems as if Defense Department added the bit on harassment in 2000.) DADT is a Washington creation, a compromise made by the whole city. In 1992, at the White House, Clinton wanted to issue an executive order opening the military to gay soldiers. Across the river, the Pentagon objected. Up on Capitol Hill, the Senate got a moratorium on any policy change and commenced to hold a series of hearings. When through the months, a "don't ask, don't tell" consensus emerged, a battered Clinton claimed it as his new plan. Congress passed the compromise into law, Clinton signed it, and the Defense Department implemented it as policy for U.S. armed servicemembers throughout the world.

The relevant section of the law, 10 U.S.C § 654, reads in part:

The presence in the armed forces of persons who demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability.

Perhaps natural for policy made in the way this one was, in practice it's confusing stuff. Testifying before Congress at the time, even then Defense Secretary Les Aspin wasn't sure whether or not a declaration like "I am a homosexual" would result in a military separation.

In many ways, the policy today is nobody's child. No one really wants to claim it as their own. As it stands, power to change it rests with Congress, who can pass new law to guide DOD regulations. The process of getting Congress to pass such a law would be greatly eased by getting DOD buy-in. And for its part, DOD has long argued that its hands are tied by Congress. (The statement of one Undersecretary of Defense is fairly typical of the Pentagon's public stand on the matter: "The Department's position is to administer the law in a manner that is both fair and consistent.")

Every so often, we get a bit of information on the policy's impact. In a time where U.S. efforts around the world are hampered by the lack of critical language speakers, we're dismissing linguists -- between 1998 and 2003, 26 Arabic and Farsi speakers had been removed. Gay soldiers have served honorably and oftentimes quiet about their sexuality are nonetheless cast aside. The Washington Post has a fantastic story on Cathleen Glover. The military trained her in Arabic at the Defense Language Institute. She thought she'd serve quietly and keep her sexuality under wraps. No one would ask and she just wouldn't tell. Great plan, but it turned out to be difficult to hide who she was day-in-and-day-out. Glover was discharged and when the Post caught up with her, cleaning pools in the DC area. (I was reading back over a post on my personal blog on the topic. I commented last January on the dismissal of both these linguists and a score of medical professionals: "The Defense Department has managed to rid the world of one evil -- the highly-trained-and-mission-critical-but- queer military specialist." If I may, heh.)

There's been debate over how much money the policy has cost us, how much the military has spent to implement it. The Government Accountability Office pegged the recruitment and training costs for the some 9,500 troops separated since 1994 at $190 million. A University of California commission said GAO was lowballing it and that it was more like $363 million.

Much of what we do know about what the policy has wrought has come from the persistence of one lawmaker, northeastern Massachusetts Representative Marty Meehan. Meehan has been calling for and end to DADT for years now. H.R. 1059, a bill he introduced in the 109th Congress, would have mandated that the military "may not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation against any member of the armed forces or against any person seeking to become a member of the armed forces." Meehan will likely introduce the measure again this year.

Say Meehan gains traction, Congress takes action, and DADT becomes a campaign issue in 2008. Candidates will face a different world than Clinton did when he announced his intentions in 1992. In his op-ed, Shalikashvili cited a Zogby survey of soldiers just back from Iraq and Afghanistan that indicates a high level of comfortability with gay colleagues. The Pew Center found in March of last year that 60% of Americans support allowing "gays to serve openly." But to pick on one potential presidential '08er, John McCain ain't one of those Americans. He has reportedly called the policy "very effective." (Not to be confused with the statement by a Servicemembers Legal Defense Network spokesperson that DADT is "a very effective weapon of vengeance.")

With the brand-new 110th Congress, what are the prospects for changing DADT? Unclear this early in the game. But Meehan, for one, is a member of House Armed Services, the committee of jurisdiction. Armed Services will meet at 2pm on Wednesday (the 10th) to organize for this congress, and if Meehan is given chairmanship of the new Oversight and Investigations committee as expected, he'll have a nice perch from which to call hearings and push for legislation. Complicating things a bit-- the new committee Chairman, Democrat Ike Skelton of Missouri, reportedly supports Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass as it stands.



Display:


Reverse wedge issue - why go there? (none / 0)

Clearly we're in Schiavo bill territory - that was ravingly unconstitutional, this isn't going to pass this Congress.

And, like Schiavo it's a wedge bill; but, unlike Schiavo, it hurts the party promoting it, not the opposing party!

The Meehan bill got 122 cosponsors, which is better than Conyers' healthcare bill HR 676, but not exactly drawing any sort of line in the sand.

The last thing Pelosi would want to do is wilfully to go for high-visibility, media-hogging legislation which gives the GOP loads of opportunities to peel off her mods, and spread alarm and despondency generally in the ranks of Dem MCs.

My guess would be - has there been recent polling? - that taking up something like the Meehan bill would lose the Dems net support.

In particular, it would give some voters (say, in Schweitzer Country, ideologically) sick of the GOP but unsure of the Dems a reason to hold back.

The General seems to be endorsing a cautious approach from the military viewpoint; politically, I'd be even more cautious.

[The Pew numbers on the SD abortion bill (too harsh even for Bush) I'd forgotten: 34% supported - including 28% of Dems, and 12% of Dem liberals.

Jesus wept!]`


by skeptic06 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 02:40:40 PM EST

Durable link for general's op-ed (none / 0)

is this.


by skeptic06 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 02:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Durable link for general's op-ed (3.00 / 2)

a response with actual polling data of what the public thinks:

http://pewresearch.org/datatrends/?Numbe rID=206

60 percent of public okay with gays serving in military

http://www.newyorkblade.com/2007/1-5/new s/national/thumbs.cfm

Gen. Shalikashvili cited a joint poll by the Palm Center and Zogby International that found 73 percent of service members who served in Iraq and Afghanistan were personally comfortable interacting with gays and lesbians. The poll also showed that 26 percent favor repeal, 32 percent are neutral and 37 percent favor keeping the ban, though these numbers were not referenced in the op-ed.?

Annenberg study:

http://www.sldn.org/templates/press/reco rd.html?record=1674

67 percent of public support gays in military.

The idea that this is a politically hot potato beyond being with the right is certainly easy to make even if its not factually true.

Also, more problematic are two issues: a) that is is the efficient thing to do to continue this policy when the military is having a hard tim recruiting much less retaining soldiers; and b) is this the morally right thing to do (it was hard to integrate African Americans, but it was the right thing to do).

When you get back with information that isn't about being afraid of what the right will do - let me know. Thanks.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 02:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Durable link for general's op-ed (none / 0)

The key to this issue is getting some support from the current military establishment.  I have no idea if that support is there or not.

Having the support of the former Joint Chiefs chairman is a great start.  But what you really need is a couple of current generals who will testify to Congress, go in front of the cameras and say "this wouldn't pose a problem for us."

In my view, the Democrats don't have enough political capital to overcome strident opposition from the military on this issue.  That's why some behind-the-scenes politicking is necessary.  If the military feels like their opinion doesn't count, they're going to get their back up just like they did with Clinton, and it will get ugly.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 03:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Durable link for general's op-ed (none / 0)

when you say military establishment- I assume you mean the generals, and not the average soldier, because according to the polling data, the average solider doesn't care, And my guess, considering we are in the middle of two wars with not enough troops and multipe tours of duties, the average soldier would welcome anyone willing to go into the line of fire so that they can come back home more often. yes, we would have to convince, I would guess, military high ranking generals of some stature to come aboard, BUT, the idea that the solution is to ignore it as a way of doing it seems a bad choice. People keep talking about this a big political football, but for who? Do the numbers that I present demonstrate that this is a political hot potato, or is it more accurate to say that many of you are still stuck in 1993? I don't ask this to be pissy, but instead to make an observation- namely I note that on so many  issues, whether its healthcare or this issue, there are so many on the so-called left who have  no idea where the American public is. That when presented with data, you go back to falling back on belief. Now, is that you ? I am not sure because there is a bit of whetehr you mean how we should fight versus whether we should fight. if how, then sure, I agree. if whether, then no, the polling data doesn't indicate we shouldn't fight.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 03:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Durable link for general's op-ed (none / 0)

Hypothetically, if we blow forward with this regardless of what the military thinks, there's going to be pushback from the military establishment.

I don't think this polling data has much relationship to what would happen in such a scenario.  The Democrats don't want to set themselves in opposition to the military, during a time of war.  I don't think it would go well.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 05:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Durable link for general's op-ed (none / 0)

who is the military you are referring to?


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 05:42:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Durable link for general's op-ed (none / 0)

and you are right- this is about what you think, not what the data says. you can't refute the data so you ignore it. that's what makes me realize that this isn't about the arguments or positions or issue, it's about you.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 05:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Durable link for general's op-ed (none / 0)

I am saying the data would look entirely different if the Democrats were pushing for one policy and the military brass was pushing in the exact opposite direction.

This is simply not an issue that is "hot" right now for the people being surveyed.  You can't assume they'll all continue to "not care" as people start talking about whether this impacts military readiness, and the like.

I'm not at all against raising this issue as long as we can secure the cooperation of some key voices in the military.  If those voices are going to come out in opposition, then I simply don't agree that your data tell us with certainty where the public will come out.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 11:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What are you proposing for the 110th? (none / 0)

We know that a repeal bill is not going to be enacted this Congress.

So, if Pelosi gives such a bill floor time, it'll be for the symbolism - for the politics.

The question is, what will a symbolic bill achieve for the Dems?

The public's #1 issue is Iraq; the salience of DADT is - what, exactly? The GOP will use Pelosi is a SF liberal, just like we said - but they can also use - the Dems are wasting time on non-essentials.

(Hypocritical, natch. But this politics we're talking about.)

Plus - the General says there's no rush. Plus - on the numbers you quote, the Iraq/Afghanistan vets polled were 37/26% in favor of the ban.

It's up to those championing such a high risk/low reward course of action to show how the Dem leadership's getting behind a repeal bill in the 110th stacks up politically.

And, as for integration of the armed forces - in the US's biggest war (to date), they weren't. And, so far as I'm aware, the question did not seriously arise.

The nation had other priorities at the time.

For 08 and the 111th, let's talk again. Hill favors repeal, I think; the others, I don't know about. But, if the Dems score a trifecta and the veto threat disappears, a repeal bill would be practical politics.

Which it isn't in the 110th.


by skeptic06 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 03:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you proposing for the 110th? (none / 0)

the post says only 37 percent are in favor. the 63 percent of the rest don't care. On that alone you lost me because it was clearly a dishonest manipulation by you of the data. See you later.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 04:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What (none / 0)

actaully i decided to answer youl

the poll says only 37 percent are in favor of the ban. the 63 percent of the rest don't care or want it rescinded. last I check, no one slaps don't care with keep the ban. On that alone you lost me because it was clearly a dishonest manipulation by you of the data.

I didn't know we were using standards like requiring that it has to be the biggest war to date in order for the use analogies such as African American integration. When you manipulate it like that, then sure, it still doesn't make sense, but at least it sounds like you are going on something more than a preconceived determination spun as argument.

See, I am quoting a general - who are using besides yourself to backup your position? Let me know when its a position that is based on actual numbers rather than spinning them.

You aslo don't explain why what 67 percent of the American public wants isn't a factor in a civil controlled military.

Timetables are one thing. No action is another. You assume there will be a 'right time'  With most of the public against the Iraqi war, you still have some democrats such as Obama, even as we won an election in part based on our positon on Iraq, still arguing positions such as funding escalation, that are counter to what the American public wants because their circle of reality isn't the American public, it's DC. I would argue that same reality, of the DC reality, versus public, is reflected in your post. More problematically it assumes the DC reality will ever take a risk and actually reflect the public reality. Based on what? I mean HRC is still advocating flag burning amendments. Why was that an issue- 1988? At this rate she will finally get up to gays in military in 2030 or so.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 04:12:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What (none / 0)

the poll says only 37 percent are in favor of the ban. the 63 percent of the rest don't care or want it rescinded. last I check, no one slaps don't care with keep the ban. On that alone you lost me because it was clearly a dishonest manipulation by you of the data

There, I'm afraid you have lost me!

The NY Blade piece you quoted gave an 11 point margin in favor of the ban. It's in your own quote!

Shalikashvili in the op-ed says (emphasis mine)

But if America is ready for a military policy of nondiscrimination based on sexual orientation, the timing of the change should be carefully considered. As the 110th Congress opens for business, some of its most urgent priorities, like developing a more effective strategy in Iraq, share widespread support that spans political affiliations. Addressing such issues could help heal the divisions that cleave our country. Fighting early in this Congress to lift the ban on openly gay service members is not likely to add to that healing, and it risks alienating people whose support is needed to get this country on the right track.

He's saying, don't rush it.

Which is rather my opinion, too!


by skeptic06 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 04:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What (none / 0)

this is what my quote says:

"The poll also showed that 26 percent favor repeal, 32 percent are neutral"

Your logic escapes me.

How do you from these numbers get a majority favoring keeping the ban unless you decide to add the 32 neutral to the 37 keep the ban. No one thinks "oh, I am neutral, but I am really against."  Most do think, well, I am neutral so why should I care if they are here or not. I have several friends like this. There response to those who want to create a ban is why should I care? not, oh they want a ban so now although I am neutral I care. We are in essense talking about issues of leadership, not morale, not what the troops want. Your manipulative frames are cute, but wrong.

Even your frame pretending that this is merely a matter of gays pushing this is a false position. The military has lost  thousands of personnel since the ban. That's the number I have heard. If you are going to really tell me that a lost of thousands of troops who are effective (including arabic traslator which are in scarce supply) isn't a big deal to overall ability to be ready for fighting then do so, but realize that you are doing so while the military is also having to lower its standards in other areas including letting real criminals into t he military because they can find no one else.

If they are neutral that counts in the lift ban simply because the motivation for the ban was a majority of the troops would lose morale. If people are neutral that means they aren't motivated by morale or any other issues.  

The poll clearly favors getting rid of the ban if there were any amount of leadership by the supposed leaders on this issue.

But your opinion  on dont rush is something more. It's a long the  lines of they will do it after 2008- if that is the case- who are they? Obama , HRC who? Speaking in theorecticals is nice. And as your name implies coming up with shit just to be contrary is easy, but actually backing it up requires something more than you are providing me here based on data, logic and normal human behavior,


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 05:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm struggling here (none / 0)

But let me offer this:

In polling, it's usual surely where two alternatives are put, to express the result as being the percentages in favor of each alternative. Don't knows, don't cares and others aren't counted either way.

But even if 100% opposed the ban, that is no justification for a quixotic, high-risk, futile sally in the 110th.

Suite et fin.


by skeptic06 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 06:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm struggling here (none / 0)

at the end you point out the real problem you say 110, but let us be honest, you wil never see a reason for this to be a high priority, that is the modifier that has saliency with me about where some of you are. i had this discussion with armstrong who claims now is not the right time too. if it were 2008, and i though thte democrats were more than what I am seeing now, then sure. but that's a big fucking if. and your assurance given the fact you dont think of this as important at all does nothing to add to the weight of actual polling data other than to convince me to trust the data more than your opinion.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 06:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reverse wedge issue - why go there? (none / 0)

I don't agree with your summation. You're just advocating moral cowardice.

Firstly, though I'm not entirely sure how a SD attempt to ban abortion is relevant to a debate on gays in the military, SD Democrats, even SD liberals, are not necessarily the same thing as liberals elsewhere. And even if they were, would that be a reason to roll over on the issue of choice? What are you, David Broder?

Yes, there is a case that some people might view it as Democratic support and acceptance of gays. Some of those people might even be potential Democratic voters otherwise, and it might be that electoral math would mean that we couldn't just write off even such blatant examples of despicable mouth-breathing homophobes.

But still, if prejudices aren't challenged, they aren't going to be beaten. Some people believe it's enough to win under the name Democrats, but I suspect most of us would rather that the party also stand for something. I think it'd be better to pick up votes in red America not by caving in on social issues but by changing peoples minds.

Especially since this is such a fantastically simple argument to win. Are gays not real Americans? Are they not moral enough to kill a man for their country? Do the bullets they shoot not fly straight? It would take little more than a cursory familiarity with the work of Leonidas, Bill Hicks and Chris Morris to make attack ads that would simply make opponents of repealing DADT look like absurd fools, always assuming that Stewart or Colbert didn't do it for you.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 03:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reverse wedge issue - why go there? (3.00 / 1)

Moral cowardice? Please! We're talking politics here.

Plus - discretion here is very much the better part of valor. No Pickett's Charges, please.

(The SD abortion poll was off topic, as denoted by the square brackets. That could have been clearer.)

Fine statements urging futile action were one thing when the Dems were in the minority: since they were in no position to take said futile action, no harm was done.

Now, at last, the Dems control Congress. If they make a success of it, that will feed into an 08 campaign which could well result in a Dem trifecta.

That's what they're building towards in the 110th.

Pursuing a foredoomed sally against DADT would be at best simple self-indulgence.

If it got in the way of an 08 trifecta, with all the reforms that that would make possible, self-indulgence would be much too gentle a word for it.


by skeptic06 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 04:15:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reverse wedge issue - why go there? (none / 0)

Best to take care of it now, then.  If we take care of this in the next 6 months, nobody will remember it by Election day.  Also, it takes a lot of hot air to make an issue into a wedge, and I don't think a refusal to "support [some of] our troops" because they're gay is a ratings-getter for non-Fox media outlets.  The population's sick of being diced up by cynics anyway, if Republicans try to capitalize on hatred again, everyone will remember Schiavo, remember their disgust.


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 04:10:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the point (none / 0)

The Dems can't take care of it in the 110th.

The only thing they can do is to ballyhoo a bill that's bound to bog down in the Senate, not even getting to Bush's veto pen.

The only point of such an operation is that voters will remember it on Election Day.

And if you're willing to bet on our frame beating theirs in the media - I'd say you were ill advised.


by skeptic06 on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 05:56:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DADT polling (none / 0)

i thought recent polling showed a majority of Americans favor repealing DADT and allowing open service from LGBT individuals.

the recent poll of service members show a significant change in attitudes from just 13 years ago
http://www.zogby.com/templates/printnews .cfm?id=1222

that said, i would rather see this done by executive order by the POTUS (as WJC should have done, Sam Nunn notwithstanding) than have it hashed out in Congress.  


by chiefscribe on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 02:54:37 PM EST

Re: DADT polling (none / 0)

this can't be done by executive order since as i understand its a law not a regulation. as such, it can only be changed by statute- or am I mistakent?


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 03:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DADT polling (none / 0)

DADT is a statute.  As far as I know you are correct.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 05:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (none / 0)

Cannon Fodder.  Let's give the gays and lesbians the right to serve their country and die in Iraq.  No thanks.

It seems that the military needs "a few good men".  They use citizenship as a recruiting tool.  They have raised the age for enlistment.  Lowered the educational standards for enlistment.  Blah Blah Blah.......

The stretched thin military may give in on the DADT and Don't persue.......... gotta keep the troops in combat.

It seems to me that if I were a soldier heading for Iraq for the third time, I'd walk up to my commander and say, "I'm queer", then go home to my wife and kids.

Cannon Fodder is all they want.....


by LeeHarris48060 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 04:12:44 PM EST

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (none / 0)

Nancy is correct, we need more high ranking military buy in to a DADT repeal for it to work politically.    It not that we don't have public support for it, but that it would take a lot of resources to fight this battle with the right.  The argument needs to be over military needs not for social equality reasons.

Don't get me wrong, I have a number of gay friends serving and suffering under DADT.  They make up fake bedrooms and live in constant fear of being found out.  This policy is unworkable.  It will change, it is just a matter of when.


by juls on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 04:24:30 PM EST

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (none / 0)

This is fascinating. So, the ball has now moved from we got to convince the public or the rank and file of the military to we got to convince the generals. It's fascinating because it moves the argument from where it was when the ban was started to require yet higher requirement than was stated for why the ban should exist. Essentially a small oligarchy of military personnel who are suppose to be subject to civili control are now expected to dictate, under your argument, what the civil control thinks, and more importantly, they can do so even while their position is factually not based on the present reality of the military. What separates this argument from Iraq or faith based analysis, I am not sure. But, I am sure your gay friends (because that was important to know) can come on line to provide some logical analysis that will show me how your argument makes any sense. Essentially- if you are going to throw gays under the bus- don't pretend you are doing it for any reason other than that.  We don't need care or need to know how many gay friends you have because its completely irrelevant.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 05:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (none / 0)

We need to figure out how much of a priority we want to make removing DADT.  If we are going to move ahead pushing a bill this year based on polling that will take a lot of resources.  If we can get more former generals and if we are lucky, current brass supporting the legislation, it will make passage easier.  You seem to be talking about getting this done in the next year or two.  Nancy, in this post, is talking about making it an issue in 2008 and passage later.  I think that is much more feasible and a better use of our political power.

Yes, I am for throwing my friends under the bus, just as much as I am for throwing myself under the bus for full marriage equality.  Because, quite frankly, issues like ending the war, health care reform etc are more important.  I am pragmatic like that.  Full GLBT equality is inevitable, it is just a matter of when and how.


by juls on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 06:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (none / 0)

the problem is your assumption at the end. nothing is evitable except death and taxes.  and i am okay with 2008, if it were 2008, not 2012, 2016, when we are all are dead and buried. see, death and tax. peace.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 06:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (none / 0)

incidentally- this same game of move the ball is what happens with all minorities looking for rights. its what happened with african americans. thats why my grandmother always says that the civil right movement happened because people got tired of hearing  someday because they realized someday meant never. its easy enough to pretend that people will one day find moral courage when it is 'safe' but the problem of course is that no time is ever 'safe.' in 2008 the new president will have his or her agenda to protect and this won't be a big oen on it. there will be excuses then too. then by 2012 they will worry about being re elected so it will be put on gthe backburner. this is how politics really works. there is always a reason to say no. yes happens when people stop accepting no as an answer. the idea that there is some perfect moment when this will occur is just false to the nature of politics. for god sake, you still have hrc aas of last year trying to argue in favor of flag burning 2 decades after the American people ceased as a majority to see it as a important issue, and yet she was still doing it because was DC logic. What I am reading here by you and others is DC logic, not the American public l ogic.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 05:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell (none / 0)

At some point, we're simply going to have to realize that basic human rights and civil rights cannot be subjected to majority votes.  Nor can they be subjected to the frantic bleatings of a bunch of fanatics who think their fairy tales entitle them to extra consideration in the public sphere.


by libdevil on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 06:26:13 PM EST

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (3.00 / 1)

Escalation is asking for 5 new brigades in Iraq, each brigade being about 3,000 troops (though brigades can be as large at 5,000). So the 9,500 gay members of the Armed Services are basically the equivalent of 2-3 brigades.
www.adamconner7.com
by Adam Conner on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 12:24:58 AM EST

Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Har (3.00 / 1)

I'm gay, and I have gay friends (ok, a gay friend) currently serving in Iraq, and I support the repeal of DADT, and I probably have about the same timeline in mind as most other people.  (Within six months after the inauguration of the 2010elections congress would be ok.  Later than that and I'm disappointed.)

What I want to talk about is the presidential angle.  

McCain can be for DADT and it sits reasonably well for him politically as a "compromise."  He's not hating on gay people, but he ain't liberating them either.  His base will accept that (they won't demand anything stronger at least), and many moderates, especially the right-leaning ones he wants to win, will accept it too.  

So DADT doesn't really work as a wedge against McCain, unless the momemtum for change becomes so strong that he looks like a reactionary.  I don't think that will happen in the next two years.

We could maybe use it as a wedge to keep left-leaning moderates from liking him, but honestly, left-leaning indies who are flirting with McCain aren't going to leave him over his failure to reform DADT.  

Now, the Democrat could conceivably be hurt by an embrace of DADT reform.  I'm not pleased to write that, but I do think it's true.  I think the Democrat can be for reform, but I think running hard on it, and trying to wedge McCain with it, would send an undesirable message to certain voters about the Democrat's most central priorities.  We do need to do well among the working class in Ohio Iowa Colorado Nevada, and while a DADT reform position is no dealbreaker, making that a central campaign plank would be a bad idea.  We need the economics and the no stupid costly wars to be front and center there.

Based on this, I don't think DADT reform will be a big campaign issue in the presidential.  It could be part of the message the Democrat sends to the base to excite them, but I don't think either side wants it as a campaign issue in the fight for the "center."  I think it doesn't function well as a wedge issue for either side.  Someone like Hillary will lose points with useless centrist voters if she talks her position up too much, and McCain would either lose face with the MSM if he tilts too far right on this one, or suffer a revolt of his base if he moves too far left.  I suppose if we could provoke him into making one of those two mistakes it'd be hilarious, but I doubt we can and the issue isn't quite clear cut enough in any direction (the anti-gay position is just status quo, and the pro-gay position isn't quite mainstreamed yet).  Given that McCain probably isn't going to stumble over this one, I doubt that the Democrat will even take the mildly risky step of introducing it as an issue.

It's a little more fun being a wedge issue when you're not guaranteeing your own party's defeat.  The thought of McCain undone by a gay issue is thrilling.  Unfortunately, I'm not seeing it here.

Thanks Nancy, I really enjoyed this post.  I like this style.

Incidentally, I'm curious about Ike Skelton's opposution.  There's so many flavors that can take.  Mildly inclined against, deeply opposed, "opposed" for the sake of constituents, "opposed" as a matter of cocktail party politics...


by texas dem on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 05:03:20 AM EST


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