Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough?

According to The New York Times' Supreme Court reporter Linda Greenhouse, Chief Justice John Roberts has released his annual report on the federal judiciary, the central theme of which is that judges are just not paid enough.

Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. made judicial pay the sole topic of his second annual report, issued on Sunday, declaring that the failure by Congress to raise federal judges' salaries in recent years has become a "constitutional crisis" that puts the future of the federal courts in jeopardy.

He noted that judges had fallen well behind the American labor force as a whole in keeping up with inflation over the past 25 years, with judges' pay having declined by 23.9 percent since 1969, adjusted for inflation, while the national average for all wages rose by 17.8 percent.

[...]

Federal judges rarely left the bench in the past but are now leaving at an increasing rate, 38 in the past six years, including 17 in the last two years. "Inadequate compensation directly threatens the viability of life tenure," the chief justice said.

[...]

By statute, federal district judges receive the same salaries as members of Congress, now $165,200 a year. Judges on the federal appeals courts receive $175,100; associate justices of the Supreme Court, $203,000; and the chief justice $212,100. The linkage of district judges' and Congressional salaries means that judges pay the price when members of Congress discern that it would be politically unpopular to raise their own pay.

Life must be tough for Chief Justice Roberts. Although his income alone places his household among the top 3 percent, close to 5 times the median household income in the country, he is only making about one-fifth of what he did in private practice -- a significant decrease in pay to accept his current position.

Snark aside, Roberts' report raises an important question: What is the right amount to pay our public servants? There is no question that the incomes offered by government need to be sufficient to draw talented and able officials. But what is less clear is if the federal government needs to pay salaries anywhere near those provided in the private sector.

The fact is the power and prestige offered by these positions should be incentive enough to take them. Members of Congress earn as much as the lowest level federal judges and there are literally thousands of people around the country -- many of whom are highly talented, highly educated and highly trained in their respecitve fields -- lining up to try to make it to Capitol Hill. If a federal judge like Michael Luttig, who left the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals in May to accept a position at Boeing, there are no doubt many qualified potential jurists in the region -- whether they be lower level federal judges, judges at the state level, law school professors, lawyers in private practice, legislators -- who would jump at the opportunity to replace him.

I am certainly not arguing that we debase the federal judiciary by underfunding positions to the degree that suitable candidates are not interested in accepting positions or that able judges feel required to leave the judiciary after a relatively short tenure. At the same time, we must acknowledge that being a federal judge offers intangible benefits, such as the power to interpret law and the ability to play a role in leading the country, that are not offered outside of government. And those who are more interested in earning money than receiving these ancillary benefits -- and not to mention having the opportunity to serve their community -- might not, in fact, make for the best federal judges.



Display:


Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

The right amount is $1 per year less than Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and Thomas will remain on the bench for.
Joe
Joe
by joetalarico on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:37:06 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

I know you're kidding, but this is spot-on.  Perhaps this trend will provide a future Democratic president with an opportunity to replace some of the Wingnuts appointed to the federal judiciary in recent years with decent jurists.


by JTL on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

My thoughts exactly, JTL. Especially since love of money seems stronger on the other side of the aisle.


Gore 2008
by Mark Centz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:15:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Do you know the average debt load for someone coming out of law school? I can tell you that it is for a lot of people in excess of over 100k, and that is not including undergraduate costs.

I am not sure about federal judges or other employees, but for federal lawyers the amount they are willing to pay entry level lawyers is so low that with debt loads it makes it impossible to take on such positions. The rate for entry level lawyers is G12 or G13- I believe- which translates into close to or around 40 k a year.

My point in telling you all of this- circumstances matter. it's easy to be snide, but as someone presently seeing my choiced constrained by the cost of my educational debt (without ever spending a dime presently on other expenses such as family, housing, etc in an expensive market) I can see why 165 while impressive sounding, when compared to costs and expenses  for lawyers is not. I am not, by the way, including the rather expensive proposition of bar membership etc.

There are some schools that provide loan forgivenance, but not all, and not at enough to justify taking a federal job over say corp law firm X that represents' big corporation x in say net neutrality.

Pricing people out of taking more socially concious jobs may not be your goal. I am not even sure how true this issue is for others. But the notion that you can merely look at salary to understand these issue seems to me to be a lfawed analysis much a long the lines of the discusiont eh other day about "copyleft."


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:42:02 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

No one gets appointed to the federal bench out of law school.  Candidates for federal judgeships have had many years, if not decades, to pay off their student loans and build up their personal wealth.  Moreover, no one is "drafted" into a judgeship.  Lawyers who'd rather maximize their income are free to do so.  I rather doubt that, even amongst lawyers, the most talented are motivated exclusively by pecuniary interests.


by JTL on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

read what I said carefully , and tell me if you aren't cherrypicking to make the obvious bias of the diarist right. The point isn't whether jurists are out of lawschool, it's a larger discussion of income. I addded to that discussion a more accurate discussion of  income versus expenses. And the diarist is also wrong -i tdoes matter about whether one has to attract candidates from better opportunities int he private sector, but I didn;'t bring it up.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

The previous poster clearly read what you wrote. You did not pay him/her the same courtesy.

The issues of compensation are indeed crucial for young people beginning their legal careers. But the country should frankly have little or no sympathy for older jurists who can't make ends meet on several hundred thousand dollars a year. Public service is supposed to be an honor as well as a sacrifice, and if anyone should understand this, it's the men and women called upon to serve as federal judges.


by epenthesis on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 01:56:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 2)

You don't go from law school to the federal bench.  To get onto the bench you would have already likely been successful in private practice and already made a salary at least ten times higher than the one federal judges make.

Basically I agree with Jonathan that we shouldn't underfund the bench too badly, but there's no need to even attempt to pay judges what they would make in the private sector.  After all paying  a million dollars a year would be highly unnecessary and expensive.

Judges have much more reason to leave their practice than for pay, especially federal judges.  Frankly anyone that wouldn't be a judge unless they got a lavish salary probably wouldn't be the best person for the job anyway.

As someone going through law school I don't have any plans to ever be a judge, but if I was ever appointed to the federal bench I don't know how on earth i'd be able to decline it, even if it was still paying $165,000 20 years from now.


by blueryan on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

you know- you ae the third person who read into my post what you wanted to read. point to me where i say that the judiary is full of people who are coming straight of law school. was that even my point?


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Maybe that's because you opened your post with:
"Do you know the average debt load for someone coming out of law school? I can tell you that it is for a lot of people in excess of over 100k, and that is not including undergraduate costs."
This leads me and any other logical person to conclude that you think this is an important factor to consider when determining judicial salaries.  By the way you're exaggerating grossly.  The only way 3 years of law school would cost that much would be if you went to an ivy league school or got no grants/scholarships.  Speaking for myself my legal education will end up costing around 35k.  Combined with my undergrad that's not exactly cheap, but lets not exaggerate here...

by blueryan on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:22:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

or maybe its because you are so stuck on the emotionall and didn't read what I said in additon to that, or that in other posts I made additional points. my post didn't lead you to conclude anything - your emotions did. it's not up to me to get you to read what I write. If you decide to post half ass rather than with my clearly stated provisos that I am making a broader point that the diarist missed , and that many of you have subsequently taken up - namely how do we attract talent.

i will post more to refute your additional arguments becaue on that you are just factually wrong. but first i wont to find the links.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:44:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

Or maybe your post wasn't nearly as enlightening or informative as you think...


by blueryan on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:55:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

riiiight- so now its that i am not 'informative." or maybe I am talking to idealogues who like the right are more about belief than reality. i think after both this post and the data i post which refutes the whole 'it only cost an average of 35 k" claim, you are just factually embarassing yourself.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Maybe you are an example of how overpaid our lawyers are. You are able to make a living despite the fact that you can't even get your point across properly on these forums. You have lost your cool on previous occasions when we mere mortals are able to understand your  logic. Maybe you are not as good as you think you are at expressing your views.


by Pravin on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

how much do I make a year? how much is my debt? what are my other expenses? what is the average income of lawyers? when you can tell me all of that, then your post will be something more than ignorance masked as analysis.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

So what are the answers.


by Pravin on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

perhaps you will start from there. the median salary of lawyers is 50k. Often what is missed in all this is that lawyers have a lot of debt, and we are talking 165 for example as upper pay after years of work- my friend for example working for the EPA was being paid 40 k a year. Our school didn't provide law forgivenance for govt employment.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not According to the BLS! (none / 0)

the median salary of lawyers is 50k.
The Bureua of Labor Statistics says lists 55k as the "Median salaries of lawyers 9 months after graduation, 2004" for "all graduates."

As for all lawyers:

In May 2004, the median annual earnings of all lawyers were $94,930. The middle half of the occupation earned between $64,620 and $143,620.
Now, I'm not saying it's a piece of cake for young lawyers just out of law school.  I'd be strongly supportive of debt forgiveness or other significant changes to enable a lot more people to go into government or public interest law.

But this has nothing to do with folks at the top of the profession. Zilch. Zeppo. Nada.

We're talking apple pie and orange liqueur here.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:10:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not According to the BLS! (none / 0)

you seem to want to play a game of 'got you" here is the rest of what it says so that anyone who is curious can know:

9 months after graduation, 2004
Type of work    Salary
All graduates

$55,000

Type of work

Private practice

80,000
Business/industry

60,000
Judicial clerkship and government

44,700
Academe

40,000

Source: National Association of Law Placement   
Salaries of experienced attorneys vary widely according to the type, size, and location of their employer. Lawyers who own their own practices usually earn less than those who are partners in law firms. Lawyers starting their own practice may need to work part time in other occupations to supplement their income until their practice is well established.

Most salaried lawyers are provided health and life insurance, and contributions are made to retirement plans on their behalf. Lawyers who practice independently are covered only if they arrange and pay for such benefits themselves.

on the stats you got they dont talk about the lift time of the lawyer- what increases if any can be expected. 55 k assumes that they will significantly increase from that point on (or at least thats your assumption that you want people to make). yet even the source you provide us doesn't say that.

you also do not deal with the fact we do live in a market based economy. look at the numbers for the judiary. notice anything?  yep lower than the median for private sector by a lot. because if you look at what an entry level associate in a big law firm makes at entry level- approx 130 k, not including their bonus or benefits, and one factors in the reality that those in the judiary could have choosent that path way,  but for other factors, then you are engaging in a shellgame.

I can continue to breakdown your argument but its clear you are motivated by idealogy in this discussion (because if  you were  motivated by more- the honest poster would have included those facts about the judiary) so I won't continue with the discussision.

for the record, only 10 percent of lawyers earn the top bracket of  income coming out. your numbers are just too manipulative by halk so I will leave it to others to play this idealogical game with you.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:41:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Remind me never to hire you as a lawyer. Law school debt is  only clearly relevant to  the topic - proper pay for federal judges - if candidates judges are under such debt. Therefore, you were either suggesting that or you were off-topic. If you see some other link, you have to expressly make an argument, and "lawyers are not as rich as people think" is whining not an argument. But instead of clarifying yourself or convincing anybody, you attack everyone else as stupid. I hope you won't be defending any death penalty cases.


by bento on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Um, I'm 36 years old.  I've been practicing for 10 years.  I am an experience corporate litigator and I hope that in the very near future I might be considered someone who would make an excellent Federal Judge.  Not that I expect a nomination, but I'm on the career path anyway (disqualifying partisan hackery on the Internet aside).

I will still be paying law school debt for another 15 years.  Am I supposed to wait until I have paid that off before I seek to serve my country?


by DrFrankLives on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 03:17:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Here is some info:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:zcc_ t9PQRUcJ:www.law.com/jsp/law/careercente r/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp%3Fid%3D1138 701909390+average+law+school+debt&hl =en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

average debt is 77 k for private, and 50 for public, and with the additional cost of under grad one gets the 100 to 150.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Col legeAndFamily/MoneyInYour20s/HowToBlitzY ourCollegeDebts.aspx

20 k is the average

I place the numbers higher because I realize that these numbers are lower than the reality for a lot of people coming out. Average means they are averaging folks like my friend who lived with her family who had money and paid for her education. But conservatively you are looking at 97k to 70 k if you decide to ignore that. I also don't discuss the different debt structure allowed for law school which is often going to be private debt providers which charge higher interest rates, and not as good terms. Ie, you can't defer such debt or obtain payment plans over the course of 30 years like some debt.

Note also the key finding at the end of this article:

"DEBT INFLUENCES JOB CHOICE

The effect of burdensome student loans on the legal profession is a subject that NALP currently is grappling with, said executive director James Leipold. His group is planning a summit next year with other legal organizations that will explore the ramifications to the legal community of ballooning law school costs and debt. Anecdotally, however, he said that more graduates are entering big-firm practices with the "deliberately stated goal" of paying down debt and then leaving.

Higher default rates are another anticipated outcome from the rising debt. Jeffrey Hanson, director of borrower education services at Access Group, said that "borrowers are stressed, but they're still paying their bills." However, they are defraying big purchases, such as homes, to pay their debt, he said.
The U.S. Department of Education reported in September that default rates for all federal student loans hit an all-time low at 4.5 percent in 2003, the latest year for which the information is available.

Access Group tracks the default rate for private loans, which students generally obtain after they have borrowed the maximum amount through federal loans. The default rate for private loans that pay for professional and graduate degrees runs higher than federal loans. In 2005, it totaled 8 percent, down from 8.5 percent in 2004 and 8.6 percent in 2003.
The decline, Hanson said, may be the result of more stringent lending criteria than more borrowers paying back their loans. And as interest rates inch up, default rates follow suit, he said. In addition, some observers are predicting that more students will rely on private loans if the U.S. House of Representatives passes a bill that would slash $12.7 billion from federal financial aid. (The Senate previously approved the bill.)

Perhaps more of a concern about default rates is that fewer law graduates are passing the bar, which delays or even precludes their ability to repay their loans.

Nova Southeastern's Harbaugh is troubled by the impact on debt load because of the 64 percent pass rate for first-time test takers in 2004. The pass rate in 1995 was 78 percent. "It's the lurking issue," he said."


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

your cost of going to law school is not, underline, is not representative. the person exagerating or minimizing is you. I know very few people who are going to law school who aren't lucky enough to have parents paying for it who are coming out with 35 k debt. unless you want  a class based legal system, or want one where talent is forced to pick big law, then your post has zero to do with the systemic point that I made.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

"Do you know the average debt load for someone coming out of law school?"

Oh, boo hoo hoo.  While I ordinarily enjoy your comments, how is this different than your last post where you suggest 'demonizing insurance companies'?  Demonizing lawyers is just as much fun and just as relevant.  I don't dispute that the public sector does not generally pay as much as the private sector, but you have terrific benefits in gov't. work that you don't get in the private sector.  Gov't workers have better medical, better dental, better retirement, better vacation and holidays, etc...  $165,000 IS a lot of money.  The prestige is immense.  So, no, I don't have any sympathy for Justice Roberts and his supposed problem.  

To summarize, i'm perfectly willing to demonize lawyers.  After all, I am one too.


by weinerdog43 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

If you can't see the difference between a lawyer who can't afford to work in a non profit or public sector setting various a private corporation preying off of us do to healthcare needs- then I can't help you figure that out with that.  if you want to understand the difference the NY Times posted an article today or in the last few days about the average cost of healchare in the US rougly 6k versus  other countries like canada (roughly half ) with outcomes better in other countries. The cost is almost all associated with corp interests- ie, vast corp bureacracy designed to deny healthcare to Americans, vast cost of marketing for copycat drugs with only slight molecular differences etc.

Here, we are discussing whether 165 is an innappripriate amount. For this particular job- sure- one can pretend thats the discussion, but its broader- which is what I was getting at. That 165 is a lot if you dont have 150 k (now adding in debt from undergrad) a mortgage for a house, kids to raise and educate yourself, etc. Indeed, on NPR (you know that great conservative bastion) one expert talking about the cost of education pointed out a legal degree is one fo the few degrees not worth the cost.

By the way, I am not whining- I am explaining economic reality. WHen you whine that the system isn't working- figure out why and figure out what the solutiosn are. The difference here in other words is that in the one case- there are reasons for the costs and in the other there are not. The solution could just as easily be to reduce the cost of a legal education. But I dont see any of you suggesting that.  I see you engaging in faux argument about how I am whining.

Don't let your bias blind you


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

"Don't let your bias blind you"

What the hell are you talking about?  Listen, if you want to be a lawyer, you're going to have to develop a tougher skin.  It's time for you to admit your 1st post was poorly phrased, and poorly argued.  

People don't like insurance companies and they don't like lawyers either.  


by weinerdog43 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

you are funny. I've been practicing law for 7 years. I am admited in two of the toughest states to get admitted to. i've practiced both non profit and practice areas of laws. the things i am saying are expereince. i also above post actual stats which are really conservative which indicate that I am right. when you post some factual data showing me that I am wrong, I will be happy to "develop a thicker skin" rather than point out that you don't have a leg to stand on beyond your feelings on the subject.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Perfectly managible (3.00 / 2)

amount of debt, and close to what you collect if you get a graduate degree.

Deal with it...just like the rest of us do.

If you want to get rich, than select another line of work...but that's the problem, isn't it?

Whenever someone compares the losses of the public sector to the private sector, it is couched in the mindset that you have to be able to earn great heaping wads of cash...

To which I say, that's what the private sector is for...

And please, let no one start with the "all the talented people will go to the private sector" canard...

All the talented people who want to get rich go to the private sector...let them get their priorities straight.

Sorry, but $165,000 a year is not a sacrifice...and to Chief Justice Roberts I say:

You are correct, now resign from the court and go into private practice.


by Nazgul35 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would even go so far as to suggest (none / 0)

that every public official can't earn more than twice the medium income of the people they serve (ie. Feds = US, state = state)...

Gives them an incentive to increase wages for everyone, instead of funneling money to the super rich...


by Nazgul35 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would even go so far as to suggest (none / 0)

good luck with that and what the resultant product of service will be like.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perfectly managible (none / 0)

we are dealing with it. we work in the private sector, but then I suspect you bitch about that too. rather than seeking solutions- as I have said above- ie,  debt forgivenance for example- many of you are about pure emotions about class masquerading as discussions about the point I raised.  My point by the way- is how to attract talent- and the last time I checked "deal with it" isn't a way to attract talent.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:45:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Too bad... (none / 0)

Until you stop equating "skill" with large salaries...you are going to continue to have this problem.

I want dedicated people who care about things other than salary...

And perhaps you should ask yourself how you believe that $165,000...hell, $60,000 dollars a year is not sustainable.

Perhaps you should look at some lifestyle changes...or stay in the private sector.


by Nazgul35 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 05:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

There are many government programs that will forgive student loans in exchange for service back to the community.

If there is nothing wrong with borrowing from the government for schooling, what's wrong with giving back to the community for loan forgiveness?

The answer, of course, is that most of the hotshot young lawyers are in too big a rush to start pulling in the really big money and don't want to hold up their careers long enough to serve anyone but themselves, so they won'tdo the community service that would wipe out their loans. So, excuse me if I don't think your student loan theory holds water.


by roooth on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

false. there are not. such programs are dependant on law schools not the government, and often they aren't wide enough to cover employment by the federal government. some schools do cover it- ie, nyu will cover it and maybe columbia, but my school didn't, and schools such as 2nd or 3rd tier law schools may not.  there are multiple ways the issue I raise could be dealt with. but often people rely on false information or understandign regarding the practice of law. my friend works on this very issue in terms of attracting lawyers to do non profit work. everything i am writing as i point out above is factually correct. many of you however are relying on generalities put out by law schools to attract an already overly glutted legal market so that they can continue to attract ill informed students. there are things that can be done to change all of this, but instead becaue many of you dont even want to adit there is a problem because we are talking about attorneys and we all k now attorneys are wealthy then there is no problem. the reality is far different from what we all know.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

165 is low, if you're trying to match (none / 0)

If you're comparing federal pay to private practice, it's not even close.  The market rate for first year associates at top firms is $145k per year, plus a bonus, which was about 30k for first years this year at most firms.  So someone who graduated in law school in 2005 made about $175k this year at those firms.  That base pay goes up by ten or twenty thousand each year and the bonus goes up by about 5 or 10 k lately.  And that's not just in NYC -- most top firms in top cities have to pay that to attract the top law students.  Average profits per partner (it's about ten years out of law school, typically, to make partner) are well above $1.5 million for the types of firms that employ the lawyers who fit the profile of federal judges (e.g. graduates of leading law schools with significant federal litigation and appellate experience).  [A number of federal judges also come from the US Attorneys' office, which pays less but in some districts (SDNY) is more selective as far as experience and grades than the firms].

That's not to say I agree with the Chief Justice that this is a crisis.  It's only a crisis if you're recruiting people at the beginning of their high earning years -- 35-45 year olds -- and want to keep them for their entire careers.  If you are appointing judges who have been partners in private practice for 10 or 20 years already, then it should not be as much of a concern as they should have more than enough saved to pay for their kids' education and for their retirement.  

Of course, the recent Republican model is to appoint young ideological lawyers from the Federalist Society in the hopes of keeping them on the bench for a few decades.  If that model changed, then I don't think the salary disparity would matter much.  That's not to say that there are no advantages to appointing younger judges -- continuity over the years, familiarity with technology, diversity (law schools now are more diverse than 20 years ago).  

But to me, even as a relatively young lawyer (albeit one who has paid off his six-figure law school loans), the honor of serving my country would outweigh the financial hit -- and there is no shortage of lawyers for whom this is the case.  Look at how many of the top grads take a year or two away from private practice to clerk -- making 100k per year less than their classmates for that short time (though clerkships can lead to better prospects in private practice down the road).

Although some judges do go back into private practice, it is difficult for me to believe that there is an epidemic of lawyers turning down the President when he calls to offer a spot on the federal bench.  


by Flatiron Dante on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 03:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You are right about the age (none / 0)

Consider the tactic of republicans appointing young people to life time jobs for the purpose of controlling the courts...

Hell, I say cut their pay in half and let Thomas, Roberts, Scalia and Alito find alternative revenue sources.


by Nazgul35 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 05:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are right about the age (none / 0)

alternative revenue sources = another job


by Nazgul35 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 05:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

"But what is less clear is if the federal government needs to pay salaries anywhere near those provided in the private sector."

Actually it is clear that government needs to provide much more competitive salaries.  The Republicans have been starving the judiciary of funding in order to try and keep the best and brightest off the bench.

Same with US civil servant lawyers in Justice Dept., SEC, EPA etc.

Good on Roberts, a right wing Republican, for coming out for the pay increase.

In 1969, federal judges earned substantially more than the dean and the senior professors at the Harvard Law School, Roberts said. ``Today, federal judges are paid substantially less -- about half -- what the deans and senior law professors at top schools are paid,'' he said.

During the same period, the average U.S. worker's wage, when adjusted for inflation, has risen by about 18 percent. By contrast, the pay for a federal judge has declined by about 24 percent adjusted for inflation, creating a gap of 42 percent, he said.

Federal judges, who have lifetime appointments, ``do not expect to receive salaries commensurate with what they could easily earn in the private sector,'' Roberts said. Indeed, judges in many cities know that attorneys fresh out of law school will earn more than they do, he wrote.

But judges should not have to accept salaries that ``fall further and further behind the cost of living. . . . The time is ripe for our nation's judges to receive a substantial salary increase,'' he said.


by BrionLutz on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:49:50 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

Actually it's been the right leaning judges most offended by the pay.  So far Scalia and Roberts have been the only two justices to call for a raise.  In fact, there were rumors years ago that Scalia would leave the bench if the pay of Justices didn't increase.  Too bad that didn't materialize.


by blueryan on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Scalia and Roberts are not alone. (none / 0)

Breyer, Clinton appointee, also called for one in 2002.

These figures, taken together, show that real federal judicial pay has significantly declined. And they show that judicial salaries are far lower than those earned elsewhere in the profession. But government service has never been highly compensated. And present judicial salaries, about $150,000 for a district judge, while disproportionately low within the legal profession, are nonetheless still higher than the salaries that most Americans receive. Why, one might ask, should judges be paid yet more?

I believe that the answer to this question has nothing to do with what judges might "deserve" or "merit." In this world, I can find no pay scale that measures an individual's "just desserts." Many American workers are paid far less than what they, in moral terms, might deserve. Rather, the answer to the question must have, and does have, everything to do with the nature of the institution and the value of a strong, well functioning, truly independent judicial system for all Americans.

Consider the decline in real judicial pay. To permit that kind of pay decrease - particularly when during the same period the pay of the average American has increased and when key costs, such as those of higher education, have skyrocketed--creates major financial insecurity among judges. As the Chief Justice has pointed out, it means resignations. It creates perceptibly unfair comparative pay scales within the judicial branch itself, as pay compression, along with local-cost allowances creates pay for some higher officers (judges) in some places that is lower than the pay for some lower officials (such as United States Attorneys, Federal Public Defenders, Circuit Executives, and Court Clerks). (9)

http://www.uscourts.gov/Press_Releases/b reyer.html

I doubt that he is alone among the center- and left-leaning judges on the court in believing that a properly compensated judiciary is necessary to the proper function of the judiciary itself.


by Drew on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

I'm not sure where you get your information, but the Federal Judges Conference has repeatedly called for delinking the salary from that of Congress. so that political cowardice does not hurt our judiciary even more than it already has.  Judicial pay is a real issue for all judges.  

State judges, too.


by DrFrankLives on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 03:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 3)

It's enough to tempt those high paying corporate lawyers (and that's exactly what the vast majority of federal judges are...corporate lawyers) into lusting after federal judgeships.  Roberts and Alito didn't exactly rule in favor of workers rights.

Fuck em.  Like the rest of us if they don't like the pay tell em stop whining and get another job.

That's what they tell us when we go to court.


by jd2 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:11:10 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

its not only high paying corp lawyers- i really wish you people knew what you were talking about. It's also enough to temped lawyers who may not want to be in corp america but have no choice because of associated expenses. this whole diary strikes me yet again as americans thinking they can get something for nothing. just like you have to pay teachers better than 50 k in nyc to attract talent the same is true here.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

I am not aware that we have a problem with being able to attract talented judges because of salary.

I am aware that we have a big and growing problem with inegalitarian income distribution in the United States.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Anybody can make these comparisons. Ballplayers do it all the time. Someone else said a judge should make more than the owner of a car dealership. WHO SAYS?

We need more judges who might empathize with the little guy and fewer Ivy League Federalists. As far as I'm concerned any lawyer who is smart enough to get through Law School and has been seasoned by 10-15 years as an attorney has the qualifications needed for appointment as a judge. He doesn't need to have gone to Harvard.

by sTiVo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:14:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

what you are aware is irrelevant.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 10:33:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

to be clear- your point would be relevant if judges were not being paid way below market for their services compared to what they could make in the private sector, and if we believed that talent could be retained by your idealogy rather than the practical realities. here's the reality- a) the money we are talking about is still below market by a lot b) yes what people make does matter c) the inequity you refer to irrelevant to the discussion - being knee jerk to even bring it up is what I find so offensive about you and several other posters. If this were some CEO making 400 times what his employees make fine, but where you are talking about a salary without knowing things like location, costs, the market for a person in the career, retenton of talent, etc this is all going beyond trying to bring back fairness into trying to make everyone the same- and the discussion becomes disturbing on that level. fairness isn't trying to make sure that everyone makes the same money- its making sure that the range is not of the realm. 200 k if you live in many areas in this country isn't rich- it can be upper middle class to middle middle class


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 10:42:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Who appointed you to be in charge of relevance? Comparison of salaries to the private sector IS one way of looking at it, but it's not the only way.

The fact is I care a hell of a lot more that CEO salaries are, in proportion to ordinary worker salaries an order of magnitude greater now than 30 years ago - than I care if a Federal judge can't afford a second home.

I care a hell of a lot more that state governments are laying off workers who perform needed services than I care how fast lawyers pay off their student debt.

These are matters of opinion. Anybody can play the game of comparing your salary to someone else's and "prove" that yours "should" be higher than it is. But it's meaningless.

by sTiVo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

I am not going to comment on what you say in your post because of how you started. start with not being so childish next time and then we may have a conversationr ather than talking passed each ohter. have a good day.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Comparison of salaries to the private sector IS one way of looking at it, but it's not the only way.

The fact is I care a hell of a lot more that CEO salaries are, in proportion to ordinary worker salaries an order of magnitude greater now than 30 years ago - than I care if a Federal judge can't afford a second home.

I care a hell of a lot more that state governments are laying off workers who perform needed services than I care how fast lawyers pay off their student debt.

These are matters of opinion. Anybody can play the game of comparing your salary to someone else's and "prove" that yours "should" be higher than it is. But it's meaningless.


by sTiVo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 09:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

It's four times what the average American makes.


by antiHyde on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:17:00 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

what are the expenses involved?


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Mortgage, commuting, food, school expenses. I don't understand your question. What expenses are involved in being a federal judge? I probably have more as a mechanic. Work clothes (or do they have to pay for those robes?) Tools (do judges have to buy their own law books?)

If $400K is enough to pay a President, $165K should be enough to pay a judge. If they want more, let them chase ambulances, or file class action suits for trivia.

Also, I'd rather have a judge whose tuition was paid for by a merit scholarship, than a mediocre student one who borrowed money to pay.


by antiHyde on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

Let him quit. I'm serious. As inegalitarianism continues to grow in this country, arguing for keeping pace with private industry only insures that judges will more and more think like high priced corporate lawyers and CEOs.
by sTiVo on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:39:04 PM EST

Nail on the Head (none / 0)

IMO this is precisely the point. Keeping pace with private industry would result in judges that think like high priced corporate lawyers - because that's where they would come from: the corporate (read Republican) world.

It fits the same GOP "moaning point" about why the nation's college campuses are "liberal bastions" - supposedly because no highly educated individuals ( except the radical libruls, natch) would accept a "lowly, low paying" teaching gig at a college or university.

Theoretically, a competitive salary would put such positions in play with a wider audience, which then would include career corporate (corporatist ?) lawyers. And then those conservative lawyers wouldn't have to choose between personal enrichment (which currently keeps some of them out of the running) versus serving the movement. They could have both.


by res on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

$165,000 a year is enough to attract perfectly well-qualified candidates for federal judgeships - a fact that can be checked by asking any lawyer.  
And if right-wing judges think they should get more, then boo-hoo.  Let them quit.  The comparison with Congressional representatives is just right.  What district in Congress is unable to attract qualified applicants because the pay is too low?  
As a matter of fact, keeping salaries low for high-level public officials - legislative, executive or judicial - is probably a good idea to weed out the ones that think they should live like kings.  
The acceptable level of pay should be pegged to the cost of maintaining a household, meeting health care needs and educating children. Period. Sorry if Scalia thinks his pay should cover golfing vacations with the mighty - that's not what I have in mind for my public servants.  
by Lois2001 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:06:52 PM EST

Did Rush take over this blog? (none / 0)

No, wait, it's simply the latest episode of "Let's Recycle Right-Wing Rhetoric Because It's Convenient" on MyDD.

The fact is the power and prestige offered by these positions should be incentive enough to take them.

I know I feel better knowing that our federal judiciary is populated by people who sought the job because for the power and prestige it affords, don't you?  Megalomaniacs and egomaniacs and make the best judges, don't you think?

If the United States wants the best legal minds in its judiciary, it should pay a rate competitive with the private practice.  Otherwise, the United States can expect to find not the best legal minds, but mediocre ones, or worse - corrupt megalomaniacs in the judiciary for money (after they retire to comfy positions as corporate advisors, of course), for power, or for both.


by Drew on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:17:21 PM EST

This Is Nuts! (3.00 / 1)

I already commented several times over at DKos. There are literally millions of Americans who work at underpaid jobs because they believe in the nobility of public service.

They're called teachers.

The notion that we need to pay judges more to attract the best talent is so thoroughly wrong-headed, it's hard to know where to start.  But I'll give it a stab:

(1) The skills needed to be a good judge do not necessarily have anything to do with being a high-priced lawyer. At the district court level, you are supposed to apply the law, period. Your job is not to be inventive, you will only get overturned on appeal.  The things to worry about are matters of how much weight a judge gives to conflicting evidence or arguments.  And these are matters of judgement that have much more to do with what's known as "judicial temperament" than they have to do with any lawyering skill.

Think of it this way.  The analogy isn't perfect, but it's instructive:  There's a very long history of athletes going into coaching.  Even before superstars started making more money than God, there have only rarely been cases where superstar athletes have made great coaches.  To the contrary, great coaches have generally come from the ranks of mediocre to good, but not great players, from those who had to work very hard to get as far as they did, and who also had to study other players very intently along the way.

(2) We don't want the best corporate lawyers money can buy.  There was a time--back when Democrats were elected President much more often than they have been lately--when it was well understood that Republicans appointed corproate lawyers to the bench, while Democrats looked to a wider field. Today, that wider field is wider than ever, with more different specializations in public interest law than were dreamed of back when LBJ was appointing judges.

Although there are superstars who make very good livings, the large majority of such lawyers routinely make significantly less than they would if they were working in corporate law.  They've already decided that their whole life's work revolves around something being more important than money.  These are ideal candidate for judgeships in every sense: Their interest in the law is broadly-conceived, not narrowly defined by the interests of corporate law.  Their ethos places the public good over private gain, and making money.  And they are committed political liberals.

Keeping salaries "low" (in the 97th percentile for male lawyers, 99th for females), maintains a situation where such lawyers find the bench more attractive than their conservative corporate law counterparts.  We would have to be certifiably insane to change the rules, to make the bench even more attracting to greedy conservative lawyers.

(3) Judgeships are supposed to confer honor.  Honor cannot be bought, unless you put it up for sale.  The federal government has a monopoloy on federal judgeships.  It's not like some hotshot lawyer can up and say, "You're not offering enough.  I'll go be a federal judge for Microsoft."  It doesn't work that way.  It's the only game in town.  And I would argue that lawyers who complain about the pay are, quite simply, lacking in judicial temperament, and shouldn't be on the bench in the first place.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:19:23 PM EST

Then we shouldn't raise teacher pay. (none / 0)

Because a teacher shouldn't become a teacher for the money, but for the honor of being a teacher.

Let's apply that standard to every honorable profession: if you want to pursue it, you have to take a vow of poverty first.


by Drew on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

$165K Vow of Poverty? I'll Take It! (none / 0)

I wasn't making an argument for lifetime poverty wages.  I was making an argument against the mindless application of market logic uber alles.

Furthermore, the main part of my argument regarded the wrong-headedness of thinking that what we want in judges corresponds to what corporate lawyers are paid for.  Logically, this was an argument for setting judicial pay scales independently of corporate law pay scales.  In fact, many fine public interest lawyers might well make more as a federal judge than they have in their deliberately-chosen less-lucrative field of law.

The only argument specifically related to the one you attribute to me concerned that of judgeships as a specific honor, and the traditional way that has been structured is as a post that lawyers ascend to after years in practice at bar.  Even here, I was not arguing that honor was a rationale for accepting lower pay.  (Remember those modestly-paid public interest lawyers?)  I was arguing it as a rationale against  whiny overpaid corporate lawyers.  The difference may seem subtle to you--perhaps so subtle as to be meaningless.  In which it is probable that you should not be a judge.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I probably shouldn't be a judge (none / 0)

Because I don't suffer bullshit like yours quietly.

I wasn't making an argument for lifetime poverty wages.

Actually, you were, in 2: you argue that we should keep wages low so as not to attract corporate lawyers.  Thus an argument for poverty wages, or at least wages that are lower than those of corporate lawyers.

Fact is, your entire argument is based on the idea that you can get a good judge cheap, and in fact, that you get better judge the less you pay.  That's bullshit, and you know it, no matter how much you want to twist it.


by Drew on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 01:29:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Nuts! (none / 0)

"The notion that we need to pay judges more to attract the best talent is so thoroughly wrong-headed, it's hard to know where to start."

Probably why you couldn't start to make a logical case against it ;),

Always odd to see so called "progressive left" folks agreeing with the reactionary right wing in their plan to starve government of funding as a means to lower government competence and deprive government of the best and the brightest.

"There are literally millions of Americans who work at underpaid jobs because they believe in the nobility of public service. They're called teachers."

So work to raise teachers pay vs. beggaring thy neighbor.  Asking govt workers, including teachers, to be human sacrifices to some warped sense of "nobility of public service" is wrong.


by BrionLutz on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Confused As Per Usual (none / 0)

I wasn't arguing it was right that teachers are underpaid.  I come from a family of teachers (mostly college) and I definitely don't think it's right. I was simply pointing out that Mr. Roberts was engaged in rather strained special pleading, that's all.  In plain English, I was saying, "Wait your fucking turn, buddy."

OTOH, I think that the salaries of federal judges are quite reasonable.

They are prestige posts, and the pay is in the 97th percentile for men, 99th percentile for women.

Using them as a benchmark for any sort of broader discussion of public service compensation is so clearly ludicrous as to require no further comment.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused As Per Usual (none / 0)

"I was simply pointing out that Mr. Roberts was engaged in rather strained special pleading, that's all."

But Robert's cogent argument was not strained at all but spot on correct as he clearly laid out the facts and figures on why US Federal judges are underpaid and why that is a real threat the independence of the judiciary.

"In plain English, I was saying, "Wait your fucking turn, buddy."

You are really saying that to those denied justice in our system due to the right wing assault on the judiciary by cutting its funding and threatening its role as the third and independent branch of US government.

As far as your claim that one reform is held hostage to another, that is totally bogus.  Cutting US oil use can't wait for health care reform which can't wait for campaign finance reform which can't wait for teacher pay increases which can't wait for judicial pay increases.


by BrionLutz on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Give Me $165K To Study It, And I'll Get Back 2U! (none / 0)

Anything less, and I just can't afford to comment.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused As Per Usual (none / 0)

I think an important point is being missed.  It is not so much attracting District Court or Supreme Court judges which are prestigious positions and for which you will always have qualified candidates.  The issue is that the judiciary is also made up of "so-called middle management jobs" such as Claims Courts Judges, Admin Law Judges, law clerks at all levels whose salaries are constrained by those at the top.  These are not all prestigious positions but are important so when you start constraining salaries at the top you also impact this level.  

The question is - Are we paying sufficient levels at all positions to attract qualified people who want to make the judiciary a career or are we paying so little that we are attracting the bottom of most law school classes for all but the most prestigious judicial jobs?  I am not sure but I do believe it worth an analysis.


by John Mills on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 10:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused As Per Usual (none / 0)

I agree with a lot of what you just said, but I actually do think that EVENTUALLY lowered salaries are going to have a corrosive impact on the judiciaries ability to attract and retain Article III Judges as well.  165K is, again, a great salary relative to what most people make.  But most folks don't make career decisions based upon what MOST people make.  They make such decisions by looking at the options available to folks like them; with their education, experience, etc.  It strikes me that we create poor incentives when one can make significantly more money not only in private practice but also in academia than one can make as a Judge.  

And for all the folks harping on the "poor job" the judiciary has done since Republican nominations began to predominate, I would suggest two things:  (1) lets work hard to win more elections; and (2) even most GOP appointees follow the law and are fair in 85%+ of their decisions.  Even on the S. Crt there are still more 9-0 or 8-1 (whar can I say, Thomas ruins my argument) decisions than there are 5-4.  


by HSTruman on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:29:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused As Per Usual (none / 0)

Exactly right about the options available to you not what "most people make."  Lawyers go through 7 years of post high school education and then half to pass the bar to be licensed.  I am not for paying judges private sector salaries but we do need to have an honest assessment about whether or not we have a salary structure that attracts qualified civil servants at all levels, not just the top.

I thought Kos and Jerome made a great point in their book that there is an expectation/belief among liberals that if you desire a good salary that allows you to own a home, drive a decent car and save for your kids education you have somehow sold out.  I worked the first 8 years of my career on Capitol Hill and at some point you get tired of the low salary, long hours and driving the beater car and renting.  Obviously that is not the life you live at $165K but I'd like to know what lower level judges, magistrates and law clerks make because that is really where these discussions have the biggest impact.

Also, I think this discussion about how we pay judges, members of Congress, etc too much is just another way of trashing civil servants because obviously they are not smart enough or good enough to just their salary.  


by John Mills on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:50:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused As Per Usual (none / 0)

meant "justify their salaries."


by John Mills on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Nuts! (3.00 / 1)

For what it's worth, I think you may be mistaken in one of your assumptions.  In my experience, corporate lawyers who have already made huge amounts of money do/will find accepting such a salary cut during their prime earning years far more convenient than the sub-class of lawyers you're referencing.  Also, the comparison that Roberts makes is primarily to law school faculty rather than those truly working in the private sector.  Are you really against paying Judges a salary more comparable to law school faculty?  


by HSTruman on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough?/ Yes (none / 0)

$165,000, from your young perspective, may sound like a bunch of coin.

But factor in the responsibilty involved, the pure work of the job and the fact that many of these people work in extremely high cost areas....like San Francico, Los Angeles, San Diego, New York City, Washington DC and more....and $165K to support a family, put away for retirement and work your ass off....ain't much. In some areas it's a ton...but it doesn't change their marketplace value.

It's simply a matter of fairness. In the private marketplace that same level of skill would multiply their income by many times. And that's the point.

If you want attract the Best and Brightest...don't ask them to work for less than they can earn in the private sector. Perhaps they would take some cut in pay...but we can't ask them to work at one-quarter of the pay they could earn at a large practice.

Sorry. Even where I live $165K before taxes, if there's a family involved and you own your own home, isn't truly great money. It's good but not great.

Yeah I'd like it this coming year since I went broke on Candidates that didn't pay their bills this last year...much less the two years before when I volunteered..as you well know, Jonathan.

But I'm single and don't have children dependent on me. Even where you went to school..imagine how much it would cost to buy a home there...and then add more money for Orange County.

If we want the best Judges, the best minds in Congress, the best people working at appointed and other positions in government...not all of them are going to be young idealists.

The only things anyone has to offer the marketplace in this world is their time and expertise.

And we have to value both...because they will have to balance their public service and their responsibility to themselves and their family if offered the Federal Bench.

If we want the best...we have to pay for it.

I don't want the bargain basement attorney anymore than I want the bargain basement Doctor. Just a thought.


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:19:46 PM EST

Oh Please! (none / 0)

$165K to support a family, put away for retirement and work your ass off....ain't much.
Yet, somehow hundreds of millions of people manage!

Say... maybe if they're smart enough to manage, they're smart enough to be federal judges, too?  Ya think?

What gets me about this argument is its strong resemblance to Swiss cheese.

Sorry. Even where I live $165K before taxes, if there's a family involved and you own your own home, isn't truly great money. It's good but not great.

$165,000 puts you in the top 3% of men, top 1% of women income earners.  And that's without counting any income from salted-away investments.  And without even thinking about a working spouse.  Good, but not great?  "His whole family was poor.  Even the maid and the butler."

As for these being high-cost places to live. Using a cost of living calculator, $165k in NYC ~ $91k in Riverside, CA or Sarasota, FL. ~ $85k in Columbus, OH.

$165k in LA ~ $129k in Riverside, CA or Sarasota, FL. ~ $121k in Columbus, OH.

$165k in SF ~ $96k in Riverside, CA or Sarasota, FL. ~ $90k in Columbus, OH.

$165k in San Diego ~ $125k in Riverside, CA or Sarasota, FL. ~ $118k in Columbus, OH.

My God!  We'll have to sell the second submarine!


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Please! (none / 0)


165K obviously represents a better salary than the vast majority of families earn.  I don't think anyone is disputing that fact.  But how does that "prove"  that a raise isn't appropriate?  I agree with you that teachers should be paid more, along with any number of other underappreciated professions.  But again, why does that mean that paying more competative salaries to Judges -- so that they are more in line with law professors, not law firm partners -- isn't ALSO a bad idea?

I think you're an insightful guy, so I'm honestly trying to understand your reasoning here.  


by HSTruman on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read The BLS! (none / 0)

Bureau of Labor Statistics on Judges, Magistrates, and Other Judicial Workers:

Judges, magistrate judges, and magistrates had median annual earnings of $93,070 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $54,140 and $124,400. The top 10 percent earned more than $141,750, while the bottom 10 percent earned less than $29,920. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of judges, magistrate judges, and magistrates in May 2004 were $111,810 in State government and $65,800 in local government. Administrative law judges, adjudicators, and hearing officers earned a median of $68,930, and arbitrators, mediators, and conciliators earned a median of $54,760.

In the Federal court system, the Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court earned $208,100 in 2005, and the Associate Justices earned $199,200. Federal court of appeals judges earned $171,800 a year, while district court judges had salaries of $162,100, as did judges in the Court of Federal Claims and the Court of International Trade. Federal judges with limited jurisdiction, such as magistrates and bankruptcy court judges, had salaries of $149,132.

According to a 2004 survey by the National Center for State Courts, salaries of chief justices of State high courts averaged $130,461 and ranged from $95,000 to $191,483. Annual salaries of associate justices of the State highest courts averaged $126,159 and ranged from $95,000 to $175,575. Salaries of State intermediate appellate court judges averaged $122,682 and ranged from $94,212 to $164,604. Salaries of State judges of general jurisdiction trial courts averaged $113,504 and ranged from $88,164 to $158,100.

Most salaried judges are provided health, life, and dental insurance; pension plans; judicial immunity protection; expense accounts; vacation, holiday, and sick leave; and contributions to retirement plans made on their behalf. In many States, judicial compensation committees, which make recommendations on the amount of salary increases, determine judicial salaries. States without commissions have statutes that regulate judicial salaries, link judicial salaries to the increases in pay for Federal judges, or adjust annual pay according to the change in the Consumer Price Index, calculated by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Over the past approximately 30 years, the vast majority of income gains have gone to the top 5% of income earners, while the bottom 80% have been virtually flat.  So any big push to further increase the that disparity leaves me completely unmoved.  So, sue me.  This is nothing but a proposal to increase the salary race within the top 1-3%.  This can only have a deleterious effect on the economy as a whole, further exacerbating the yawning gap between the haves and have nots.

Tell you what.  Here's my counter-proposal:  Anyone nominated to the federal bench has to spend 90 days living on the street, homeless.  No shelters.  On the street.

Before their confirmation hearings.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read The BLS! (none / 0)

what would the same judge earn in the private sector?


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read The BLS! (none / 0)

I don't know why you think this:

Most salaried judges are provided health, life, and dental insurance; pension plans; judicial immunity protection; expense accounts; vacation, holiday, and sick leave; and contributions to retirement plans made on their behalf.

Is important.  Public school teachers are provided all of those: health, life, and dental insurance; pension plans; vacation, holiday, and sick leave; and contributions to retirement plans made on their behalf.

But perhaps they, too, should be forced to live on the street for ninety days before they're hired, so they learn not to complain.

And this:

Over the past approximately 30 years, the vast majority of income gains have gone to the top 5% of income earners, while the bottom 80% have been virtually flat.  So any big push to further increase the that disparity leaves me completely unmoved.  So, sue me.  This is nothing but a proposal to increase the salary race within the top 1-3%.

Is ridiculously reductive.  The existence of the wealth gap does not justify the blanket denial of raises to anyone in the top 5%.  That's especially true when those who would receive the raise are as valuable as judges, and when there is no guarantee that the denial of the raise will do anything good for anyone earning less than the top 5%.


by Drew on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 01:55:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What's Important (none / 0)

Apparently the site's infested with all manner of folks who think that money buys better justice from the bench.

I should have known better than to try to argue with anyone who wouldn't split their sides with laughter at such a ridiculous proposition.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's Important (none / 0)

apparently this site is infested with people who confuse economic fairness or progressive with socialism. we can all come up for names for what each other are saying.  the label for your argument is that we all regardless of what we do should be making the same. that to be a judge doesn't have a value because of some idealogical bullshit about justice that you have written above. you dont have any reason to believe it is factually how market works. it is just based on what you want to be true. we are talking about retention of talent of actual judges, not the theorectical ones in your head. in many major metro areas 165k is considered middle class to upper middle class, it doesn't put anyone any where near CEO type salaries, and that is what make this conversation so disingenious. when you can't win on the merits,- as drew has described- or me with some of yoru other points. i have found you extremely manipualtive in this discussion


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 10:53:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You'd prefer a site (none / 0)

That was infested with those who believe that the promise of a lower salary will attract the best candidates, of course.

May I suggest Free Republic?


by Drew on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Please! (none / 0)

Of course it's better than the average guy!

They aren't doing an average job!


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:13:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, Substantially BELOW Average (none / 0)

The federal judiciary has been one of the most regressive forces in our society over the past 30 years.  I'd say the job they've done is very far below average.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, Substantially BELOW Average (none / 0)

and it has also been one of the most important in terms of civil rights in the last 50. But then of course you continue to bring up red herrings. whether or not you agree with their decisions doesn't change the fact that they serve an extremely important function. newsflash- most liberal and progressive judges aren't going to want to take a vow of poverty either just because you have an agenda beyond attracting and retaining judges- because funny I thought this was what hte conversationw as about- not all this idealogical stuff you have brought up


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 10:57:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Please! (none / 0)

Wrong. Your calc's are off and miss the entire point.


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:11:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Point Is (none / 0)

Your whole argument's absurd.

More money doesn't buy better justice.

It buys it's way AROUND justice, sure.

But that's a whole different thing, entirely.

Precisely the opposite thing, in fact.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:22:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Point Is (none / 0)

It buys better judges, you idiot.  Unless you want nothing but independently wealthy political idealogues on the judiciary, just like we have in the Senate.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Jan 03, 2007 at 10:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough?/ Yes (3.00 / 1)

Where does it end?

Let me see. We can't possibly have judges making less than a mere ballplayer like A-Rod, can we?

"Progressive inegalitarians" = oxymorons

Let me tell you something about doctors' and their salaries. Twenty years ago I worked in industry. Lost part of my finger in an industrial accident. Couldn't possibly go to the company doctor. Had to get my own high-priced specialist. Oh, and he was good. I knew he must be good because he had a gold plaque with his name on the hospital wall listing him as a 500K-1M donor.

He almost cost me thousands of dollars in my Workers Comp settlement because he was too f'ing lazy to look at my finger, relying instead on an XRay that had been taken before the surgery. I had to put my fist in front of his face to get him to look at the finger instead of the XRay.

Meanwhile, I was surprised to learn that the company's doctor was actually a progressive of some sort. Lots of them went into industrial medicine in those days? He was the only guy who treated me decently in the whole ordeal.

by sTiVo on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough?/ Yes (none / 0)

You've had a bad experience.

That doesn't indict all Doctors. Not all Doctors or Attorneys or Accountants or any other profession is bad because they have their own bad guys.

Generally you get what you pay for...if you know how to choose the professional.

And again this misses the point. Value is the point...

I don't give a damn what an 'average' guy makes...

I don't want AVERAGE guys in Congress or on the Bench. I want ABOVE AVERAGE...simply SUPERIOR people in those positions. And unless they are wealthy BEFORE they get elected or appointed salaries are a real issue.


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough?/ Yes (none / 0)

Sorry, but the qualitities that get a lawyer a seven-figure salary are not necessarily the qualities I want in a judge. I don't want "rainmakers" as federal judges. I don't want the guys who kept Enron afloat for all those years on the Federal bench. On the other hand, some Legal Aid guy with a degree from a third rate institution might have a fine legal mind and make a great judge - or not. Salary doesn't have any great correlation to the qualities I want on the Federal bench. $165K is substantially more than I make (even though I'm in the top 10%), and it ought to be enough. Anyone for whom it's not enough is someone I DON'T want on the Federal bench.
by sTiVo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:02:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough?/ Yes (none / 0)

the fact you think a lot of attorneys are out there making seven figures suggest to me you are so discconnected from the reality of the legal practice that its hopeless conversation. whats sad if you are so far gone that yo udont even realize one can google lawyer salary and prove your comments false in an instant.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 10:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 3)

I think Roberts actually makes a fairly progressive point.

When we pay public servants far less than what they'll make in the private sector, it eliminates from the potential pool of said servants a large swath of people.  Not all, mind you.  And there are other reasons for being a public servant.  But it does matter that being one of the most brilliant jurists in the country can get you either a lucrative career or medium-level lawyer pay.  One tenet of the original Progressive movement in the late 1800s and early 1900s was that public servants were trained to be the best in their fields and to serve beyond competence.  Here in WI, we have this crazy "Wisconsin Idea," that among other things, includes the notion that public servants are among the most respected in their communities on a number of levels - for the act of serving the public good.  That may have broken down over the years, but we should demand as progressives that all public servants are the best and the brightest.  And the reality today is that paying them well below what their "market worth" is is not going to attract that crop for the most part.  It might with some, but not on the level we need to have a government that truly serves the public interest through the capabilities of those who administer that nebulous concept of "government."

This of course is not in a vaccum.  The income inequality in America is definitely a more pressing issue along the same lines of compensation.  Let's hope Congress addresses that well before the pay of our judiciary.  


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:39:00 PM EST

What Makes You Think They're The Best??? (1.00 / 1)

Corporate lawyers aren't paid for their wisdom, compassion, fairmindedness, or even plain old-fashioned judicial temperament.  They're paid for being sharks.

Why do you think that makes them "the best" at being federal judges???

Do you honestly think that the folks the Federalist Society has been cranking out over the past 6 years are "the best"???

Or, more to the point, where do you get your drugs???


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes You Think They're The Best??? (none / 0)

Where do you get your drugs?

Great intelligent conversation....


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Avoid The Hard Questions.... (none / 0)

I can see you're perfectly qualified to make big bucks in corporate law.

And perfectly unqualified to be a federal judge.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Avoid The Hard Questions.... (none / 0)

Absolutely wrong on #1 and correct on #2.

Not all attorneys can be judges no matter how good they are as attorneys. First they need courtroom experience which a majority of corporate and private attorneys do not have in abundance. Most never see a courtroom.

Most attorneys are busy doing contracts and a dozen other subspecialites.

That's Trial Attorneys are a specialist group. They have their own professional associations and are the elite of the Attorney world.

It is from the Trial Attorney world I would hope we are choosing our judges who start at the bottom of the rung and work their way to a Federal Judgeship on merit.

While this isn't the way it's worked for that last 6 years, with a Dem Congress I have some hope that we will go back to the old ways.

And yes a private citizen is absolutely unqualified. You are correct on that account.

The concept applies throughout the US government apparatus. We should be recruiting simply the best and brightest not just idealists or recent graduates who are building a resume.

That can be done.

Our efforts at pure science for example can only be done by the most forward thinking, outside the box people in the world.

We need that in medicene, energy independence with a National 20 year committment of 20 Billion a year or so, new social programs structures better designed to achieve their desired results and on and on...

This topic isn't about Judges. It's about a philosophy of meritorious selection and engagement. Without it we stand to move very slowly in very positive directions.

The country cannot effectively withstand slow progress. Like the Aollo program, we can make huge strides in all these areas if we make the national, financial and meritorious selections.


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:43:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Avoid The Hard Questions.... (none / 0)

One of the reason why i consider myself a moderate is this idealogical way in which the left and right have discussions. Your arguments are strong, and so are the other arguments but they don't matter because it's not about what's best. it's about whats best to reinforce an idealogical perspective.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 01:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Avoid The Hard Questions.... (none / 0)

Hopefully this is a 'reality based' perspective not an ideological one. It's meant that way.

I look to the desired result.

Then I consider the most effective, albeit long-term, way to achieve it while remaining true to Democratic base beliefs.

I hope this isn't ideological.


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Avoid The Hard Questions.... (none / 0)

Actually, if I didn't make it clear - i was not referring to you, but those arguing against your position. Your arguments actually ae based on how 90 percent of people think.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (3.00 / 1)

Part of Roberts's job is to look out for the interests of the entire federal judiciary.

His argument is more about district court judges than his own pay, and a look at the article cited explains a lot.

Look, we get what we pay for in this capitalist system, whether you like it or not.

Where we spend our money says a lot about our values. We should spend more on the justice system, less on prisons, more on teachers, more on diplomats, less on weapons, more on congressmen, less on consultant contractors.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:52:07 PM EST

Can I Get Some Of Whatever You're Smoking??? (none / 0)

Like the Federalist Society has been packing our courts with the finest judicial minds ever seen.

Right.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:37:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Well said.


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (none / 0)

Much more important than raising pay for judges and other senior-level bureaucrats is raising pay for the mid-level managers and specialists especially (but not limited to) those working in science and technology fields.

In order to raise pay for those peole, it may require raising pay for the guys at the top.


by bi66er on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:28:36 PM EST

Re: asdf (none / 0)

Another comment that recognizes economic reality for professionals.


...just a red meat eatin' Democratic Dawg at PolCampaign
by BigDog on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:27:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (none / 0)

I agree w ith this as well.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Give 'em raises, but not now... (none / 0)

To me, this isn't an issue  of the GOP trying to keep the best and brightest off the federal benches, as someone stated above. It's a move to get the left leaning judges to retire or move to private firms.  In 2000, facing a somewhat unfriendly federal bench despite 12 years of Reagan and Bush 1, the strategy would  be to starve the then group to replace them with rightwing judges.  Seems to be working.  Now hold off on the raises until 2010, when hopefully their is a Dem Pres and Dem Congress.  For the next two years, you don't approve the uber-rightists, then with appointment control you entice new, left leaners.  You don't start off with higher salaries in 08 because you have to encourage some of the Reaganites to retire early...


How is John McCain different than John Edwards?
by The lurking ecologist on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:32:48 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

No its not enough
The populist argument here seems obvious but its a bit of a strawman.
Someone with the education and training-and probably the career path to make it to being a judge is someone for whom 3-500Kis the expected income. Liberals do not want people who are so wealthy they dont care what their income is but if you keep pay to what the sales manager of a successful Honda dealership can make,then you are going to get conservatives morewilling to serve and take a lower pay level then they might otherwise make.
Don't skimp.Businesses pay what they need to get what they need.The public square deserves no less.
by clarkdemocrats on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:38:51 PM EST

I'm with the starve the beast camp (none / 0)

Continue the freeze, and recapture the judiciary as the wingers drop off the teat. Let 'em go shill in their think tanks, that's what they're good at.


by lambert on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:53:53 PM EST

Re: I'm with the starve the beast camp (none / 0)

Which explains why right wing incompetents like Clarence Thomas are Supreme Court justices. We currently have a Republican president still padding the judiciary with underpaid, unqualified incompetent ideologues.

And you want to accelerate the process.

No thanks.


by BrionLutz on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm with the starve the beast camp (none / 0)

BrionLutz - On another thread you've identified yourself as a deficit hawk. Please square that with your position here.
by sTiVo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 08:01:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm with the starve the beast camp (none / 0)

<<BL: Which explains why right wing incompetents like Clarence Thomas are Supreme Court justices. We currently have a Republican president still padding the judiciary with underpaid, unqualified incompetent ideologues.>>

"you've identified yourself as a deficit hawk. Please square that with your position here."

Sure...taxes equal spending plus $100B per year to pay down the debt.


by BrionLutz on Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 09:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe we should pay the Prez $100M (none / 0)

Since some of the pay increase proponents are discounting the non  monetary benefits a federal judgeship offers, why not make the Presidential salary 100M to attract the best of the best?

Of course, I am not serious.

I don't buy this debt built up during college bullshit. Liberal arts majors who choose to go to pretigious progams without enough scholarships build up debt in college and some of them end up in low paying jobs. Engineers and scientists who are some of the besst choose to take less pay and stay in academia and sacrifice money equivalent to the 35 to 75K debt accumulated by some lawyers. If you cannot pay off the debt by the time you become a federal judge, maybe the profession is not for you. And when you manage to pay off the debt by that time, 165,000 is pretty damn good money. Don't forget the networking opportunities the children of these judges get. There are lot more benefits than the 165000.


by Pravin on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:58:59 PM EST

Re: Maybe we should pay the Prez $100M (3.00 / 1)

Fair points, but the trick is that you discourage people from pursuing those positions who haven't been able to pay off their debt load.  Also, the majority of the class I graduated with had debt in excess of 120K, not 70-75K.  Finally, 165 is great in a lot of places.  Doesn't go quite as far in NY, DC, SanFran, etc.


by HSTruman on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I support cost of living pay allowances (none / 0)

I agree with the SF and  NYC comment. I assumed there was some allowance for cost of living when assigning wages. To what extent, I don't know.


by Pravin on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:40:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I support cost of living pay allowances (3.00 / 1)

there is but not by much. another friend who went to work for a government agency in another position got a bump up but it was still way way way below market. what i have a problem here with is this idea that if you are going into public service that somehow you should 'suck it up' and everyone has it tough. like that is any response to the situation. i feel thats the same attitude i heard when the unions in nyc were striking and people  said 'well but i dont get that so why should i care?" it was class envey under a false assumption that others were making out better than someone else. this isn't about paying some CEO 400 times what an employee makes. it's about paying people still below what they would make inthe private sector but aknowledging, the costs of things like education, the sacrifice for the public good they are making,e tc. its also to reflect some of the other arguments. i feel that liberals too often do what conserevatives due- which is resort to knee jerk positions because it seems right rather than actually checking. for example the discussions i had above where people who didn't know the debt load on average of law students gradudating assumed it wasn't as bad or that htey could get loan forgivance although its a school by school basis and even thats not assured because the policies can and do change. the point that i was trying to make above,a nd that others are trying to make is we cant and shouldn't ignore the complexity here.


by bruh21 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's Not Enough (3.00 / 2)

The reason it's not enough is precisely because we don't want all Federal Judges to be former corporate law partners.  Roberts and other attorneys who have been in private practice and made $1 million+ for a few years can afford to take a big salary cut and still put their kids through college without a problem.  Guess who can't as readily make that sacrifice?  The attorney who has worked in the public sector from the time they come out of law school till they hit 40, when a judgeship might actually be a possibility.  

Also, it's worth noting that NOBODY is seriously advocating salaries that come close to matching what's paid in the private sector.  The comparison is to tenured faculty at law schools.  It strikes me that Judges, who have a tremendous impact on real people's every day lives, ought to make as much as a Professor at one of the top law schools.  Why exactly is that controversial again?  Similarly, why is it controversial to argue that the real wage that Judges earn in 2006 ought to match what their real wages were in 1969?  If someone can explain that to me, I'd honestly be interested to hear your perspective.

Disclaimer -- I've had the privilege to work for two extremely hard working federal judges who I know were severely underpaid.  


by HSTruman on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:00:43 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

I think public servants, are for the most part, under paid.  I am not for paying them like the private sector but there shouldn't be such a large desparity that we drive away dedicated public servants after a few years of govt service so they can live a more comfortable life.  We also need to get away from constantly trashing people who do government work as many are hard working and do a good job.  

It is not just about attracting top people to the top positions which is generally easy due to the prestige it is about ensuring that the people below them are high quality.  The only way to do that is to ensure that the pay is enough to encourage good people to stay and make it a career.  That's not easy when a good middle management govt employee can leave their position and get 30, 40, 50% more to do the same thing in the private sector.

It's a delicate balance but I think it is probably worth looking at whether or not we pay public servants at all levels properly.


by John Mills on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:02:02 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

No, they aren't paid enough.  We should be attracting high quality individuals.

Should a Supreme Court Justice be paid $5 million/year?  No.  But $300-400K is not out of line.  $250k for a Disctrict Court judge?  I have no problem with that.

Like Congresspersons, justices likely will maintian a second home (although not to work with constituents, obviously).  Moreover, they should be travelling to conferences, schools, etc. and shouldn't have to worry about expenses.

What ends up happening is that we enter into a vicious cycle:  We refuse to pay enough to attract people to gov't service.  Then the people we do attract do a crappy job (or are corrupt).  Then we refuse to pay more because "they don't deserve it."


by space on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:30:44 PM EST

Here's Another Perspective (none / 0)

There are times when conservatives are going to be appointing judges, like it or not.  If there is too much of a gap between a judicial salary (including perks) and what a well-qualified lawyer makes, then what happens is that the pool of candidates which Republicans would be willing to nominate ends up consisting disproportionately of people who are willing to take a pay cut for ideological reasons and those who are incompetent enough that they can't get a higher paying job than a government job.  (I'm not saying that government workers are incompetents, just that people with Republican values tend to prefer higher paying corporate sector jobs if they have an option.)

In other words, if the salary gap between private sector legal jobs and the federal judiciary is too wide, then when Republicans hold the White House (and it is impossible for Democrats to hold the presidency forever), Republican appointments will tend toward people who are ideological and/or incompetents.

I may not like a guy like John Roberts and I would prefer that Republicans never ever get a chance to nominate Supreme Court Justices, but I would much rather that Republican appointments resemble John Roberts than Clarence Thomas.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:42:22 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? Market $$ (none / 0)

I think its a matter of the labor market prices. Santa Clara County, CA (pop. approx 1.6 million), pays its County Counsel $141,000 a year. Some of the smaller municipalities pay even more.
And yes, there are geographic considerations/ impacts.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama
by Predictor on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:59:13 PM EST

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

I am a financial advisor.  Given their responsability the answer is very simple.  165,000/year is no where near enough.  


by Awfergu on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 10:22:07 AM EST

Your couldn't be more wrong on this one (none / 0)

Ask yourself this question:

Is it appropriate for a United States District Judge to make less than a first year attorney appearing in his courtroom?

The answer should be no.  If you have another answer, you're nuts.


by DrFrankLives on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 03:12:34 PM EST

There's a new sheriff in town (none / 0)

It's called the Democratic party. And no, it's not your father's Democratic party, though it may be your grandfather's. Populist themes are back in fashion. The middle class has taken it on the chin far too often.

One of its most important tasks is to do something to reduce the vast inegalitarianism that has grown up in this country the last twenty-five years.

We have to stop playing by Wall Street rules. We have to measure talent by measuring talent, not by salary.

And by the way, just wondering, how many of you guys who say we just have to boost these salaries (a refrain we never heard until Roberts said it) also call yourself deficit hawks? Government is strapped everywhere. Government workers of all types face layoffs. Elected officials stiff-arm unions all over the country - and many of these are Democrats. How many of you have called for salary increases for them?

And then we have to listen to this stuff? Where are your priorities?

by sTiVo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 07:25:11 PM EST

Re: There's a new sheriff in town (none / 0)

"a refrain we never heard until Ropberts said it"

Actually, it has been part of every Chief Justice's Message for the last two decades.  And the Federal Judicial Conference has repeatedly weighed in.  My old boass was the head of that Conference, and he was a longtime Democrat, who started out on a tobacco farm in the 1930s. He sees the need to delink salaries from Congressional pay, and the issue is VERY real.

Sometimes life is not a freshman political theory bullshit session.


by DrFrankLives on Wed Jan 03, 2007 at 10:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is $165,000 a Year Not Enough? (none / 0)

Perhaps there is another way to think about this, Roberts feels salaries should be comparable to those paid by top law schools. Tuition at top schools has increased tremendously since 69 and this tuition increase has underwritten the salary increases I assume.

So if we stick with the law school pay scale parallel, where is the corresponding tuition-type government revenue hike to come from? There is a nice argument for a tax increase for the top five pecent in my opinion. Roberts wants it!! Sorry, got off track. Back to my question:

Is Robert's case for a comparable wage to retain talent that otherwise would become faculity, not so much go off into private practice?

If so, how have the wages for private practice affected law school salaries, did law shcool salaries go up to attracted top legal talent from the corporate sector or did salaries increase to attract top academic legal faculity who might otherwise have become judges?

I realize I am not staying with the ongoing discussion,  but I ould like to butter understand his argument's frame(s) of reference.


ozma
by ozma on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 09:32:53 PM EST


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