Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008

Gallup has an interesting new poll out. Althoguh I rarely report on 2008 polls, I will report on this one, because it has a real twist. Rather than conducting either a trial heat or favorable / unfavorable battery, they instead asked the following question:
Next, I'm going to read you a list of people who may run for the Democratic nomination for president in 2008. For each, please tell me if you would find that person to be an acceptable nominee for president from the Democratic Party, or not. First, [RANDOM ORDER].
For Democrats, here were the results:

June 26-29, 496 Democrats or Democratic Leaners
(Candidate: Acceptable / Unacceptable)
Edwards: 71 / 25
Clinton: 69 / 29
Gore: 68 / 31
Kerry: 59 / 40
Biden: 44 / 37
Clark: 42 / 49
Dean: 40 / 54
Richardson: 36 / 38
Daschle: 35 / 50
Feingold: 29 / 41
Warner: 29 / 42
Kucinich: 21 / 51
Vilsack: 19 / 47

One thing to note about this poll is that when people have never heard of someone, they seem to break toward "unacceptable" on that person. For example, according to Pew, in April Russ Feingold only has a 28% name ID nationwide. However, 70% of the people responding to this poll seem to have an opinion of whether or not he would be an acceptable choice. The same problem seems to be affecting Warner and Vilsack. Pew only found a 27% name ID for Warner, yet 71% of the people responding to this poll bothered to venture an opinion anyway. For some odd reason, if someone has never heard of someone, they don't want that someone to be President. Strange, that. Doesn't anyone trust strangers these days?

Given that, who are these numbers really bad for? Wesley Clark, John Kerry and Howard Dean (not that Dean was considering running). All three have pretty high name recognition (69% for Dean, 74% for Clark, and 99% for Kerry). All three also have high "unacceptable" ratings: 40% for Kerry, 49% for Clark and 54% for Dean. I should note that the last name ID taken for Clark was during the 2004 primary season, so it is very possible his name ID has slipped quite a bit, and he too is suffering from the same problem facing Vilsack, Warner and Feingold.

Who are these numbers good for? Edwards, Clinton and Gore, but especially Edwards. The guy has a much lower name recognition than either Gore or Clinton, yet higher acceptable ratings. It still blows my mind that more people don't take him seriously in 2008. He could really run the table--and I say that as a supporter of someone else.

June 26-29, 441 Republicans and Republican leaners
Giuliani: 73 / 25
Rice: 68 / 29
McCain: 55 / 41
Gingrich: 45 / 50
Jeb Bush: 44 / 52
Frist: 38 /44
Allen: 36 / 35
Cheney: 34 / 61
Pataki: 33 / 51
Romney: 31 / 42
Huckabee: 17 / 40
Brownback: 14 / 43

The Republican side is far, far more stratified. Two potential candidates, Guiliani and Rice, are viewed as far more acceptable than the other high name ID potentials. McCain is at 41% unacceptable. Gingrich is at 50% unacceptable. Jeb Bush is at 52% unacceptable. Cheney is laughably at 61% unacceptable. Even Republicans hate that guy. Of course, Rice isn't running, and what these numbers really do is reaffirm my longstanding belief that McCain has no chance to win the Republican nomination, Guiliani maintains a real, though long, chance.

Looking at these numbers on the Republican side reminds me of a time last summer when I was stumped over who would become the Repulican nominee. Could we really be so lucky that Republicans would nominate Frist, and thus we waltz to victory carrying 40 states? Just then, a smart friend of mine reminded me of the real danger on the Republican side: Mike Huckabee. Man, that guy wouldn't have the baggage that nearly every national Republican spokesperson has now. He also doesn't have the overt racism and neo-fascism of Geroge Allen. He doesn't have the dead-cat charisma of Bill Frist (the guy who finally makes Bob Dole seem warm and exciting). Huckabee would be a serious threat. Keep your eyes peeled, and start your oppo work on that guy.



Display:


Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Edwards? Clinton? Gore? Kerry? Biden? These are the only ones viewed more favorably than unfavorably?

Looks like the Dem nominee won't be getting any kind words or support from me in 08.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:07:06 PM EST

I'm starting to think the GOP will nominate Rudy (none / 0)

First of all, great numbers for Edwards. I thought he was easily best suited among our group to knock out an incumbent in '04, but he didn't seem to have the instincts to build early toward the nomination, something Warner is doing now. It was incredibly frustrating as an Edwards supporter to have him locked in single digit obscurity throughout 2007, and until Iowa. For '08 I prefer Warner with Edwards second.

On the dark side I'm increasingly concerned about Rudy. I know all about the issues and the personal baggage but check out eight very recent statewide preference polls by Strategic Vision. I'm pasting only the top two choices but these are among a full field. Rudy leads McCain in every state but Michigan, normally by significant margin and with healthy plurality. Obviously his numbers will skew high in New York and New Jersey, but look at the strength in the South and Pacific Northwest.

In our case we doubt Hillary's standing will hold due to rejection on electability terms, but for Republicans it's more a case of no clear frontrunner who fits the standard dosage requirements of the base. They may be forced to default to electability which could mean Rudy. He certainly would change the regional dynamic, forcing us to contest New York and putting states like New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Maine in jeopardy.

Of course, these numbers could also be name recognition combined with weakness of McCain, more than any love for Rudy. Like Chris, I'm more and more convinced McCain will be rejected.

http://www.strategicvision.biz/political /results.htm

"Who would you support for the Republican nomination in 2008? (Republicans only)"

Wisconsin:
Rudy Giuliani 38%
John McCain 30%

Pennsylvania:
Rudy Giuliani 39%
John McCain 28%

Michigan:
John McCain 39%
Rudy Giuliani 22%

Georgia:
Rudy Giuliani 27%
John McCain 22%

Florida:
Rudy Giuliani 39%
John McCain 28%

Washington:
Rudy Giuliani 35%
John McCain 28%

New Jersey:
Rudy Giuliani 47%
John McCain 30%

New York:
Rudy Giuliani 49%
John McCain 12%


by jagakid on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:17:52 PM EST

I don't see any way at all (none / 0)

that the GOP nominates Rudy.  Pro abortion.  Pro Gay rights.   If they do, there will be a third party challenge consisting of evangelicals.  


by Delaware Dem on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see any way at all (none / 0)

Here, here.  Joe Schmoe Republican - even stalwart party loyalists - might have a favorable impression of Rudy, but the red meat base won't want anything to do with him.  If he looks like the front-runner, McCain, Allen and others will tear him to shreds and let the wacko base pick up the pieces at the polls.

He is too much of a RINO to pass party muster; heck, he might be banned from the GOP ticket in places like Texas where they have obnoxious platform plank requirements.


by Phoenix Rising on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No Rudy, no way (none / 0)

The 9/11 halo will fall quickly on the gay rights and pro-choice issues.  The fact he forcibly moved his wife out of the mayor's mansion and his mistress in won't help either.  Nor will the ties to Kerik.

Huckabee's the guy, I think.  He's just conservative enough without seeming totally insane.  Plus, he has sort of a good common touch---he lost all that weight (struggling with one's weight---is there anything more American?).  His recent decision to "pardon" Keith Richards for a traffic ticket he received also strikes the right note---it seems like he's someone who cuts through the usual government BS.  


Saxby Chambliss
by bosdcla14 on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:22:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Rudy, no way (none / 0)

Exactly!  That truly astounding bit of Gracie Mansion theatre may have been overshadowed by a few hours of looking like Da Man on 9/11, but if Guiliani runs in '08, it'll all come back up, and it'll sink him with the fundies.  End of story.

Condi's not running, and it's a wise choice on her part.  She's not exactly fundie-proof either, and her record as national security advisor was abysmal; she just sucked up to her husb...erm, Bush, and told him what he wanted to hear.  And she's such a success as Sec of State that we basically don't have a foreign policy to speak of, right now.

The GOP doesn't have a good candidate, is all.

Still, they'll nominate someone, and I just hope it's not McCain, even if the fundies detest him, because the press will still be wearing out their kneepads for him.


by RT on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm starting to think the GOP will nominate Ru (none / 0)

Giuliani has the same kind of thin support that Lieberman had in the run up to 2004 - high name recognition, low recognition of policies and record. As soon as Giuliani gets in a competitive field he's going to get torpedoed, if not from the GOP front runner then from a proxy (like Gephardt was a proxy of Kerry against Dean). Giuliani would also require the GOP to completely change their GOTV outreach programs with evangelical churches. Giuliani is not going to win the nomination.

One wildcard would be Olympia Snowe - I can see some Arnold Vinick magic happening that would completely shuffle the electoral map. She's got 80% approval ratings with Maine Democrats and might put all of New England and NY in play for the GOP. If the GOP completely implodes over the economy and foreign policy don't count her out.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A month ago I gave Rudy little chance (none / 0)

But I post on a couple of balanced political sites and the right wing posters have been relentlessly championing Rudy. One of them is very sharp and has gotten many political predictions correct the past few years. He's been insistent for a year that Rudy will be the nominee. Only recently after seeing those state polls did I stop rejecting it.

Which frontrunner is going to torpedo him? There is no clear GOP frontrunner, if you believe McCain will slip in the polls. That may already be happening. It's a bizarre Republican year, as Chris said. More like one of our fields with fragility at the top so opportunities elsewhere.

Another thing about Rudy: he would allow the Republicans to scream 9/11 thoughout the fall campaign. Don't understate how eager they are to do that.


by jagakid on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 11:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A month ago I gave Rudy little chance (none / 0)

Romney would likely go after him, also Allen and Huckabee.


by Mimikatz on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 11:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A month ago I gave Rudy little chance (none / 0)

I agree with that. Especially Allen and Huckabee. Romney has some problems with an ideal resume himself, so I'm not sure he could go on full piranha mode.

But attacking isn't the issue. This is the type of question the base of the party will have to decide regardless of a single spoken word. Do we sacrifice on a couple of issues, or potentially a couple of points in the popular vote? If someone with ideal resume/issues was available, Rudy would have no chance. The only one in that category is Jeb, and GW essentially ruined him for 2008.

My problem is I don't know how the other side thinks. It's fairly easy to look at our primary candidates and estimate a starting point level of support, and which direction that will probably go. The other way I rely on others and they're telling me Rudy.


by jagakid on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mixed bag (none / 0)


  Nice to see Edwards and Gore doing so well, but Hillary's WAY too high on this poll, and Biden's strong showing, I hope, is just a function of his talk-show visibility. And I don't understand the negativity towards Clark and Dean. What would a Democrat -- a real Democrat, not some DLC stiff -- have against either of those two?

 I'm hoping Feingold's low standing is more name ID than anything.

 We got work to do.


by Master Jack on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:27:34 PM EST

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

I consider myself a "real" Democrat...so I'll try to answer your question.

I think when it comes to Dean, I probably would have thought about it and answered "Unfavorable" because I really want him to stay where he is as Chairman of the DNC. I think the leadership he's providing there is simply priceless and I don't want to see him change places or I feel we may start to lose again. As for Clark...he seems okay to me, but there's just something about him that I've never fully trusted. Don't get me wrong, he's smart and I seem to agree with him on many issues, but there's this little voice in the back of my mind that isn't 100% there with him.

I really like Edwards, Gore, and Feingold. Those are my three faves for 2008. I'm thrilled to see at least 2 of them doing really well on this poll. I agree with you on Hillary. I'd like her "Unfavorable" to be MUCH higher.


by Elise on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

So the answer of the "real democrats" is that Clark activates a "little voice in the back of your mind"? That he can`t be fully trusted because of it?

I need a better answer, Clark is a fine southern democrat in uniform, he may not be the better option, but he`s a good call though.


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

Well, I guess I'm a little uncomfortable with the fact that he's never been a politician. Sure, he's got military experience and that provides him with certain qualifications, and I trust his military experience and judgement. It's the other stuff that I don't know about...he doesn't have a "record" on reproductive rights, or gay marriage, or education, or health care, etc. etc. I know what he SAYS he'll do about those things, but I don't have anything to back it up except his word. I guess I'm not sure if I'm willing to give support to a candidate like that for President...for a lower office, maybe. But President is a big thing to just take someone's word on.

Does that make sense?

That's why I've never been fully comfortable with him. Don't get me wrong...I met him at YearlyKos and I liked him in person and everything. I thought he was an okay speaker, etc.

Just a comparison, when I hear Edwards or Gore or Feingold speaking, or I hear about an event they did, or I get an email from one of them, I get excited...I feel that little spark of passion about them. I don't get that with Clark.


by Elise on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:56:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

Are you afraid that if he were in Congress and had a vote, he would do an about face?  Can't think why.

In 2004 he joined with other former generals in a brief to the Court supporting affirmative action.

And here's most of a very telling statement Clark made in 2002 before the House Armed Services Committee concerning what we should do about Iraq.  He wasn't running then.  Bear in mind that he, like the rest of us, had been informed by the government of the dangerous weapons in Iraq.  His statement is entirely consistent with the foreign policy we'd all like to see and indicates a clearer, calmer head than others at the time.

.....

Saddam has been pursuing nuclear weapons for over twenty years.  According to all estimates made available he does not now have these weapons.  The best public assessment is that if he were to acquire fissionable material he might field some type of weapon within two years.  If he has to enrich the uranium ore itself, then a period of perhaps five years might be required.  But what makes the situation relatively more dangerous today is that the UN weapons inspectors, who provided some assistance in impeding his development programs, have been absent from Iraq for over four years.  And the sanctions regime, designed to restrict his access to weapons materials and the resources needed to procure them, has continuously eroded.  At some point, it may become possible for Saddam to acquire the fissionable materials or uranium ore that he needs.  And therefore, Iraq is not a problem that can be indefinitely postponed.

In addition, Saddam Hussein's current retention of chemical and biological weapons and their respective delivery systems violates the UN resolutions themselves, which carry the weight of international law.  

Our President has emphasized the urgency of eliminating these weapons and weapons programs.   I strongly support his efforts to encourage the United Nations to act on this problem.  And in taking this to the United Nations, the President's clear determination to act if the United Nations can't provides strong leverage undergirding further diplomatic efforts.

But the problem of Iraq is only an element of the broader security challenges facing our country.  We have an unfinished, world-wide war against Al Qaeda, a war that has to be won in conjunction with friends and allies, and that ultimately be won by persuasion as much as by force, when we turn off the Al Qaeda recruiting machine.  Some three thousand deaths on September 11th testify to the real danger from Al Qaeda, and as all acknowledge, Al Qaeda has not yet been defeated. Thus far, substantial evidence has not been made available to link Saddam's regime to the Al Qaeda network.  And while such linkages may emerge, winning the war against Al Qaeda may well require different actions than ending the weapons programs in Iraq.

The critical issue facing the Unites States now is how to force action against Saddam Hussein and his weapons programs without detracting from our focus on Al Qaeda or efforts to deal with other immediate, mid and long-term security problems.  In this regard, I would offer the following considerations:

   - The United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be further strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing US determination to act if the United Nations will  not.  The use of force must remain a US option under active consideration. The resolution need not at this point authorize the use of force, but simply agree on the intent to authorize the use of force, if other measures fail.  The more focused the resolution on Iraq and the problem of weapons of mass destruction, the greater its utility in the United Nations.  The more nearly unanimous the resolution, the greater its impact in the diplomatic efforts underway.

- The President and his national security team must deploy imagination, leverage, and patience in crafting UN engagement.  In the near term, time is on our side, and we should endeavor to use the UN if at all possible.  This may require a period of time for inspections or even the development of a more intrusive inspection program, if necessary backed by force.  This is foremost an effort to gain world-wide legitimacy for US concerns and possible later action, but it may also impede Saddam's weapons programs and further constrain his freedom of action.  Yes, there is a risk that inspections would fail to provide the evidence of his weapons programs, but the difficulties of dealing with this outcome are more than offset by opportunity to gain allies and support in the campaign against Saddam.

If efforts to resolve the problem by using the United Nations fail, either initially or ultimately, the US should form the broadest possible coalition, including its NATO allies and the North Atlantic Council if possible, to bring force to bear.

Force should not be used until the personnel and organizations to be involved in post-conflict Iraq are identified and readied to assume their responsibilities. This includes requirements for  humanitarian assistance, police and judicial capabilities, emergency medical and reconstruction assistance, and preparations for a transitional governing body and eventual elections, perhaps including a new constitution.   Ideally, international and multinational organizations will participate in the readying of such post-conflict  operations, including the UN, NATO, and other regional and Islamic organizations.

Force should be used as the last resort; after all diplomatic means have been exhausted, unless information indicates that further delay would present an immediate risk to the assembled forces and organizations.  This action should not be categorized as "preemptive."  

Once initiated, any military operation should aim for the most rapid accomplishment of its operational aims and prompt turnover to follow-on organizations and agencies.

If we proceed as outlined above, we may be able to minimize the disruption to the ongoing campaign against Al Qaeda, reduce the impact on friendly governments in the region, and even contribute to the resolution of other regional issues such as the Arab-Israeli conflict, Iranian efforts to develop nuclear capabilities, and Saudi funding for terrorism.  But there are no guarantees.  The war is unpredictable and could be difficult and costly.  And what is at risk in the aftermath is an open-ended American ground commitment in Iraq and an even deeper sense of humiliation in the Arab world, which could intensify our problems in the region and elsewhere.

I look forward to answering questions and helping the Committee assess the costs and risks of the alternatives before us.


by catherineD on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:19:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

I think people get too caught up in biographies and position statements.  I actually supported Clark in 2004 based on those purposes, but he turned out to be a total dud of a politician, his campaign was completely lackluster and his message was pretty weak.  I've seen him speak more recently (on video, granted, not in real person) and he doesn't seem to have really improved: he's still very wonkish (perhaps he's insecure about his own inexperience on domestic issues and feels the need to present himself as an expert) and not very memorable or remarkable.  Maybe he'd be a strong VP choice, but a presidential candidate really has to be capable of communicating a message that is larger than the sum of his policy proposals.


by Ryan Anderson on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:57:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

I agree with you two: the lack of political experience is the solid argument I was looking for, and I visualize him as a VP too.

I just want that anybody rule him out yet, considering our options, he`s not that bad.

Thanks for the further explanation.


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:26:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

Okay...I agree. Honestly, I'd be most comfortable with him as Sec. of State or Sec. of Defense...but VP would be okay.

I really am concerned about that lack of pol. experience though...it would make him more reliant on others (which could lead to mistakes or puppet-like circumstances), and it could also lead to surprises...I'm okay with surprises from some folks at various levels of govt., but not from a President.

Also...Norm Coleman used to be a Dem...so did Lieberman...neither seems to be anymore. So, sure, people change.


by Elise on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:31:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

I was with you all the way, Elise. I completely agree with every word you said, including your top 3 (though Gore doesn't seem likely at this point). As for Clark, I'd also say Sec. of Defense if I had my choice. 'Relying on others' in that post would have saved a lot of lives in the last few years.


Tim Wolfe
by bruorton on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:51:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

I like Clark a lot, and think he would be a good president. I also think his vision of America's foreign policy most closely matches my own.

That said, the reason I don't think I can support him in the primary is that he has no political experience. He's never moved a bill through a legislature. He's never had to work closely with people who disagree with him, and find compromises and persuasion. The most successful Democratic presidents (the most successful presidents, period, actually) are the ones who can use Congress to get things done. The next Democrat president is going going to face a media and an opposition party even more hostile than Clinton did, and they'll need a Clinton calibre political mind to do that. Wes Clark does not have that mind.


by Gpack3 on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

Dean is unacceptable because the media was successful painting him as a far-left, latte-sipping, emotionally unstable nutjob.  


by Winston Smith on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

Actually, it was Lieberman, Kerry, Gopheart and other DCDems who painted him that way.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mixed bag (none / 0)

The fact that Clark is not a politician and that he is a military leader are huge plusses for him in my book.

I hate the fact that we are engaged in Iraq.  It had nothing to do with terrorism and WMD, and everything to do with fleecing the American taxpayer to give money to weapons makers, construction companies, and oil companies.  That being said, we ARE involved in a war, and we still will be during at least the beginning of the next Presidential term.

I like many Democratic candidates for their domestic policy abilities and records, but for foreign policy; and specifically to lead us out of an active war I strongly feel we need a leader with real military experience.

I'd vote for Clark or even McCain over any of the favorite Democrats with no military experience.  We temporarily need some military leadership to get us out of the ugly morass Bush and his looters have got us stuck in.


by snolan on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 10:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It is 2006. (none / 0)

And whenever I see people panicking about the frontrunners of both parties two years or more out from a wide open Presidential election, I am reminded of elections past.  

In 1990, did anyone think Bill Clinton would be the Democratic nominee, yet alone the next President of the United States?  No, Mario Cuomo was.  

In 1986, did anyone think that of Mike Dukakis?  No, Gary Hart was going to be the next President.

In 2002, I did not think John Kerry had a chance to be the nominee.  It was going to be either Gore, Dean or Clark.  


by Delaware Dem on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:35:33 PM EST

Re: It is 2006. (none / 0)

Actually, in 2002 LongJohn was the presumptive nominee while Dean wasn't even a blip. Then Kerry had to go vote for war and begin his career as a weather vane. As for Edwards, nobody took a freshman senator seriously (with just 4 years at that time) -- and it's amazing that anybody does now even after he couldn't  deliver his own state for Kerry.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is 2006. (none / 0)

Actually, I believe it was Lieberman (gasp) who was the bigshot at the time.


by KainIIIC on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is 2006. (none / 0)

Who thought, in 2002, that Clark was going to be the nominee?  He wasn't even known to be a Democrat at the time.


by Ryan Anderson on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:51:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Wow.  61% of Republicans find Cheney unacceptable.  That makes my day.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:43:40 PM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

I noticed Evan Bayh was not on the list of Democrats.  What gives?  He is the best shot the Democrats have of winning in 2008.  


by ditka on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:55:44 PM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

From 2001 to 2005, Bayh served as Chairman of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), the longest term of any DLC chair (previous DLC Chairmen included Bill Clinton and Joe Lieberman). He is also a member of the Senate Centrist Coalition and helped establish the New Democrat Coalition. Bayh serves on the Board of Directors of the National Endowment for Democracy.

Does that answer your question sufficiently?

As for the last statement in your post, ha ha! We don't know what the world looks like in 2008. That kind of absolute statement is simply not reasonable at this point, for anyone. Also, it's always too soon to say 'we must go with a Republican-lite'.


by lightyearsfromhome on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:45:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

That's got to be the funniest thing I've heard all week.

phat


by phatass on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

I'd be a huge Edwards supporter if I could find a way to believe that he's really slipped the grip of the DLC.  As it is he's my personal frontrunner.  I wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton under any circumstances.  


by eRobin on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:56:41 PM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (3.00 / 1)

Why Edwards? I'm genuinely curious. Seemed to be an empty suit with a dumb slogan (two americas) and a wire-hanger smile to me. I mean, yeah, he can smile (or perhaps 'grimace electorally'), and he's a fine man with reasonable instincts, but surely we can do better.

For one example, think about the best political slogans in history: 'Are you better off than you were four years ago?' 'It's Morning Again in America', 'Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow' 'Building a bridge to the 21st century'. All positive messages.


by lightyearsfromhome on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

'Are you better off than you were four years ago?'

This does not fit as a positive message...


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:36:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

"political slogans in history"

Those are all recent slogans, but I'd hardly call them the best in history (with the exception of "Morning in America").  What about "Happy Days are Here Again" or "A return to normalcy"?


by Ryan Anderson on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:48:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Heh. "A return to normalcy" could sure make a come-back in '08.
 
Tim Wolfe
by bruorton on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:58:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

During the 2000 race, I thought Bush was a lightweight.  He had no significant record to run on, and his campaign was vacuous.  I never heard any substance from any campaign speech.  (In contrast to Gore or even Dole and daddy Bush.)  I thought it was a cynical political ploy, to have no record, run on no issues.. how could this campaign ever be challenged or criticized?  

I also thought that Bush was stupid but harmless.  Never again will I see this tactic as anything but dangerous.  Edwards wants to grow up to be president someday, he needs to establish a political resume and actual accomplishments other than using his personal fortune to buy a one term senate seat.

Nominating Edwards is endorsing the Bush tactic.  Be nobody but a pretty face or name.  Have no record, promise everything to everyone, and slide into the white house.  Fuck that.  


by Winston Smith on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:17:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

I don't understand all the hubub over Edwards, either. He served one term in the Senate, and as mentioned above, failed to deliver his own state in '04. He seems to me a political lightweight.

I'm also no fan of Mark Warner. I am troubled by his (to me, at least) fuzzy positions on abortion and gay rights. I wouldn't like to see a Pennsylvania US Senate race duplicated on the national stage: a hardcore conservative Republican versus a conservative Democrat.

Feingold in '08!


by pennquaker08 on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 11:14:08 PM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (3.00 / 1)

Kerry failed to deliver North Carolina.  Not Edwards.  

Warner is pro-choice, no waivering on that.  As for gay-rights, he ain't going to come guns ablazing, but he did try to enact a hate crime bill protecting gays.  

By the way, if you're looking for a candidate that is going to go all out on gay rights, you're going to be looking for awhile.  Feingold ain't winning doggy-doodle.

 


by Eric11 on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 12:46:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Kerry failed to deliver North Carolina.  Not Edwards.

Nominees, P or VP,  HAVE to deliver their home states -- or lose the whole enchilada. And Edwards wouldn't deliver NC if he were the presidential nominee either.

If anybody could trace the numbers and find ANY state where Edwards being on the ticket helped Kerry I'd like to see it.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:15:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

"Nominees, P or VP,  HAVE to deliver their home states -- or lose the whole enchilada"

That's ridiculous.  Was Lloyd Bentsen supposed to win the Dems Texas?  Was Jack Kemp really supposed to take Maryland?

VPs aren't historically chosen on the basis of whether or not they reside in a battleground state, although that's always the buzz the follows the Veepstakes every four years.  Although I agree that, in my opinion, Edwards wasn't a very strong choice in '04, I also agree with the sentiment that it's ridiculous to deride him simply because a ticket that he wasn't even leading failed to pick up a state that hasn't voted for a Democratic president since Carter.


by Ryan Anderson on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:45:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

I think the problem really is that (and I can be correct on this matter) he pushed on that state (NC) even when was clear he won`t win there, and for that mistake, Kerry`s campaign didn`t give more fight on other states like Missouri. States we could win.


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

The Kerry campaign ran ads in NC for the month of July and stopped targetting the state altogether in August, after polls showed it firmly out of reach.  Considering how little was put into the state, and the fact that the Kerry campaign still (infamously) had millions in its warchest after the election was over, I don't think it's fair to blame NC for the pullout from MO.


by Ryan Anderson on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

FWIW, Gore lost Tennessee. And only came within one vote of winning the presidency.


by Joseph Reed on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

A VP candidate is worth maybe 3-3.5 points in his home state. That's it. Especially a high populus state. There was no way in hell Edwards was going to flip a state that's basically 9-12 points red at the presidential level. If you look at the 2000 and 2004 numbers in terms of the dosage index, Edwards was worth precisely the 3+ points.

Kerry's problem was a lack of a high profile viable Democratic VP choice from Ohio. He would be president today if we had a prominent gov or senator, a John Glenn minus 20 or 25 years. Now you've got Strickland and potentially Brown so that might pay dividends down the road, under the easy assumption Ohio remains a pivotal state.

I agree Edwards wouldn't win North Carolina atop the ticket. That's one of the reasons I prefer Warner and the juicy, electoral college flipping 13 votes.


by jagakid on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:32:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards was chosen (3.00 / 0)

for party unity, not his ability to deliver NC.


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:50:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards was chosen (3.00 / 1)

Damn straight.


Tim Wolfe
by bruorton on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Edwards and Clark are my first choices. I am speculating that Clark is still not well known despite his running in '04. The other possibility might be his military background. But his positions are quite progressive. He has even made the statement we will need to go to a single payer Canadian style health care system.


by cmpnwtr on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 11:55:14 PM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

I'm wondering if there's a good way to incorporate the name recognition number so that by just scanning the results you get the complete picture

One possibility is multiply the positive and negative by the name recognition percent; then add a third number to represent unknown/no opinion, which would be 100 minus the sum of positive and negative

So, if a candidate is 73/21, but name recognition is 60%, then display 44/13/43
Meaning 44 positive, 13 negative and 43 unknown

The 'unknown' then becomes akin to swing voters a candidate is trying to reach

I don't know if this the best way, maybe someone can improve on it

We would need name recognition numbers for all these candidates to calculate the new integrated display ... the Gallup poll page linked doesn't appear to have those


by jimpol on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 12:35:30 AM EST

The Huckabee/Arkansas problem (none / 0)


Dems also have trouble with Huckabee because they can't critique his governance of Arkansas-- i.e. where Arkansas ranks in education, etc.

As the famous SNL debate parody had it in 1992:

CLINTON: We've moved from 50th to 49th in prevention of rickets.  And watch out Mississippi, we're closing on 48th.

Any critique of Huckabee is also going to reflect on Clinton, or more likely, give Huckabee cause to say "didn't that guy leave me a mess."  

He IS a danger.


Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 12:46:22 AM EST

Re: The Huckabee/Arkansas problem (none / 0)

"President Huckabee" just SOUND possible.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Huckabee/Arkansas problem (none / 0)

"President Huckabee" just DOESN'T sound possible.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Huckabee/Arkansas problem (none / 0)

After "The Bubba President" and Dubya (aka Alfred E. Neumann), do you think the nation would go for "Triple-wide Huckabee" in the White House?

He is a threat, but I'm not sure what kind.


by Phoenix Rising on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:17:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I Heart Huckabees (none / 0)

While it's true that Mike Huckabee would be able to use the "Clinton defense"...that will probably be unnecessary because the national GOP will want to run not on a domestic agenda but on an international one of "stay the course". (Crazy though it may sound.)

Missing is C-dog Hagel who I think would be a nightmare candidate for nearly all the Democrats and I think Hagel wins the nomination if the GOP base is convinced the economy is going in the right direction (for them) whilst Iraq is a mess (again in their eyes)

If Iraq is going great, and the economy is great: Allen or similiar inflatable man wins.

If Iraq is going great and the economy reeks...that's Giuliani's cue.

If both are seemingly in the shitter..the Party will let Romney spend his own money to lose to pretty much any Democrat outside of George Galloway.


by risenmessiah on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 06:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards (none / 0)

I was not a huge Edwards supporter in 2004, but I saw him speak recently, and I really liked what he had to say.  One of the lines I remember best was:

The current battle for the soul of the Democratic Party is the battle for the future of America.

He doesn't strike me as particularly DLC-ish. He seemed quite the opposite, in fact.

He's very much in favor of universal health care, for example, and says everyone should quit using euphemisms for it. He was very positive and inspirational. And funny and warm.


by Jenny Greenleaf on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:15:26 AM EST

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

Did Edwards support universal healthcare, or do anything substantive to advance universal healthcare that one time he was actually in government?


by Winston Smith on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

You hit the Edwards problem on the head.  He is a great speaker but there is very little policy substance or accomplishments there.  I know he would have had a tough re-election but I always thought the right move for him was to sit out 2004 Pres race, get re-elected to the Senate and plan for 2008.  Having run as the losing VP candidate doesn't help him.  Name me the last losing VP candidate from either party to be nominated or elected.  I can think of lots who ran but not one who won.


by John Mills on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:54:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Franklin Roosevelt (3.00 / 1)

He was James Cox's running mate in 1920.


by Crazy Vaclav on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:48:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Franklin Roosevelt (none / 0)

So, are we hoping Edwards to be our next FDR?


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 04:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

The current battle for the soul of the Democratic Party is the battle for the future of America.

Sure. But which side of it is Edwards on?

And unfortunately for him, populist talk is cheap -- and his Senate record is against him in that regard.....

For example.

Look deeper and you'll find that, like Hillary and other NeoDems, John's fingerprints all over the most odius aspects of the Bush agenda.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:25:13 AM EST

Your example doesn't say much (none / 0)

I mean, we're talking about a bill that Barbara Mikulski voted for, too.

How much of the Senate is to the left of Mikulski?  Not much.


by RT on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:10:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your example doesn't say much (none / 0)

If Jesus himself voted for a corporate sponsered bill which hurt ordinary people I'd condemn him for it.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HRC: 37%, Gore: 16%, JRE: 12% in the same poll (none / 0)

The poll also gave the following number for a hypotherical primary matchup

2006 Jun 1-4

Democratic
registered voters


All Democrats

%

%

Hillary Rodham Clinton

36

37

Al Gore

16

16

John Edwards

12

12

John Kerry

11

11

Wesley Clark

4

4

Joe Biden

4

4

Russ Feingold

3

3

Mark Warner

2

2

Tom Daschle

*

1

Tom Vilsack

--

--

 

 

Other

3

3

None

2

3

All/any

*

*

No opinion

5

5

* Less than 0.5%

ps: hope you enjoyed meeting Al Gore, Chris.
by NuevoLiberal on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:40:24 AM EST

Re: HRC: 37%, Gore: 16%, JRE: 12% in the same poll (none / 0)

I only dislike one thing of Gore: when is he going to tell us he`s positive about his participation in the next race?
He must face the field soon or later he`s going to seem as a head uncapable of make tough decisions.
What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:52:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HRC: 37%, Gore: 16%, JRE: 12% in the same poll (none / 0)

Gore is focussing on global warming currently. Once that ball gets rolling, he could possibly step in. Among all prospects, he is probably the only one that can enter the race at a later point and still surge to the top swiftly, given his high stature and experience.


by NuevoLiberal on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 12:03:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HRC: 37%, Gore: 16%, JRE: 12% in the same poll (none / 0)

Count me as one of those who thinks Gore will not ultimately run. But a poll like this still points to his being something of a kingmaker -- assuming he won't endorse HRC, whoever he did endorse would likely be the one to go the distance against her.

If he just decides to stay out of the primary altogether this time, then who do his supporters go to? Just a guess, but I'd speculate Edwards, Feingold, and anyone who makes the environment/global warming a campaign issue.


Tim Wolfe
by bruorton on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The GOP is screwed (none / 0)

McCain is routinely dismissed as unelectable on RedState.  Guiliani is too liberal to win the support of the conservative Christians.  


by Winston Smith on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:51:12 AM EST

Re: The GOP is screwed (none / 0)

Arrrgh.

But understand the Republicans don't have as much regionalism anymore to cause primaries surprises. McCain isn't not going to win, Giuliani can win if the economy (to the GOP) appears to be in the toilet.

Republican voters are reactionary. If they perceive the economy to be bad/good or if they perceive Iraq to be bad/good...it will switch who is the nominee. And probably no candidate can win under different circumstances.


by risenmessiah on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 06:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

I have to say that I do agree with Mr. Bowers here regarding Mr. Huckabee. I wasn't exactly sure what to think about the field (in fact, I was almost thinking Romney would have the best shot, despite himself), but, when I saw Huckabee on several talk shows, I had but only one thought: "Damn, this guy is good. We might be f--ked." For all intents and purposes, and despite it seeming a little too obvious and contrived, he really is the Republican Clinton. And I almost bet it will come to haunt us.


by Joseph Reed on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:59:18 AM EST

Huckabee will have to go the winger alter (none / 0)

Huckabee is good.  This is mostly the propduct of a system of voter approval in Arkansas that force their leaders into permanent campaigns.

Eventually, Huckabee is going to have to sell some of his credibility if he wants the nomination.

First off, because many of the wingers are pushing for a LONGER war.  Ask Newt, who is not really a winger, but sure seems to have great instincts about the next turn ahead.

Second, Huckabee is prone to being a smartass.  Consider his joke a few months ago about robbing convenience stores to fund his campaign.

Granted, it was a funny joke and well delivered, but GOP primary voters don't like hints of instability or flippancy.

Third, GOP insurgent campaigns are almost non-existent.  If I hadn't seen it occur locally in Pennsylvania this year, I'd say it was impossible.

The Republicans have a very bad tendancy to settle on presumptive nominees.  This gives a lot of power to McCain and Guiliani.

Huckabee needs to find a home with anti-Guiliani and anti-McCain people.  That basically means he will settle in with the religious/business alliance that took Bush into office.

The problem with that formula is that Americans are getting weary of McJesus, Inc.  

Plus, the business wing of McJesus, Inc. is slipping off to moderate Democrats in the hopes that those Dems can work some Clinton magic.

The point about Huckabee?

He's going to have a hard time finding a brand within the GOP.

Republicans likle a reliable brand, even if it is a total lie.  "Compassionate Conservative", "Straight Talk" and "America's Mayor" click with these people.

Huckabee needs to find a brand that he can sell to GOP primary voters.


by jcjcjc on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:48:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who are they going to anoint this time? (none / 0)

Like you say, "The Republicans have a very bad tendancy to settle on presumptive nominees."

They really aren't keen on democracy.  The GOP insiders like anointing a winner ahead of time, then turning the primary process into a ratification of their choice.

I remember in 1999 when we woke up from the haze of the Clinton impeachment, and suddenly discovered that GWB had a shitload of money in his war chest, and was the official frontrunner from that moment on.

So I wonder, who are they going to anoint this time?

Looks like it'll be McCain or Allen.


by RT on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 01:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who are they going to anoint this time? (none / 0)

Sorry for responding so late after posting.  Vacation.
R
I think Allen is dead in the water.  I'd give every nickel I make between now and November 2008 to make Allen the GOP nominee because he would make Bob Dole look like Austin Powers!

Allen is dreadful.  Even as dreadful as GOPers are, I think they see how dreadfully boring and stupid and vile Allen is.

McCain worries me, because I think Democrats have let McCain define himself for way too long as a moderate when in point of fact he is a hard-right, old-school conservative whose "moderate" values are really things everyone decent accepts, such as campaign finance reform.

If the Democrats have the balls, they can drub McCain.  But, they have to stop conceding to the lie that McCain is a moderate.

Additionally, they have to tie Bush around McCain's neck.

Remind people of what Rove did in South Carolina in 2000, and ask why McCain would cuddle up to some bastard like Bush after what Bush's people pulled in 2000.

I tell ya now, Huckabee is the only GOPer who is genuinely scary.


by jcjcjc on Sat Jul 29, 2006 at 10:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Laugh all you want at Bayh.  He can move the Democrats back to the center where they can win big (just like Tony Blair did with the Labour Party in 1997).  
 
by ditka on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:14:25 AM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Dude. Tony Blair is currently unpopular in the UK (even in his own party). Labour has been governing because of a total Conservative implosion.

You might want to look for a better analogy to explain why we should validate the Right's new "Middle."


Tim Wolfe
by bruorton on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:30:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

There is another problem. I think that a Clinton type of dem is a world better than a republican, but if is doable, I would go with a real democrat: liberal, progressive as much as he can.

Maybe the time is set for a Feingold (or even a Clark, or a Gore, for that matter, if he cleares his mind, or yes Edwards) maybe is not, but that`s the reason we have primaries in the party, to find out if we can hope for a real deal or just hope for a GOPless government.

Blair is a little better than Thatcher, but the lack of liberty and the war in Irak were the cost to pay.

Finally, if it has to be a centrist, I think Warner is far better than Bayh.


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 04:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

You have a real lack of knowledge about the UK in the 1990s and the rise of Blair.  The Major government was very unpopular in 1992, but the Labour party put up Neil Kinnock (Joe Biden's favorite speech writer) who was a traditional Labour MP (he lost to Thatcher in 1987) and still lost of Major.  Why?  The voters thought they were too left wing and could not be trusted on tax and spending issues.  Right before the election Labour MPs said they needed "one more heave".  The idea being that if they just ginned up enough Labour votes they could win without ever having to move to the center.  Sound familiar?  Kind of like Joe Trippi?  Well after the election there was a power struggle and the more moderate voices of Tony Blair and New Labour won.  The first thing they did was say they were a break from Labour's past and different from the Conservatives (a third way if you will).  Many old Labour people, like George Galloway, said this would be a diseaster for Labour.  

Well how did it turn out for New Labour?  In 1997 Blair and New Labour (running in the center) won landslide majorities in Parliament, and they were reelected with huge majorities in 2001, were reelected in 2005 and will still probably win in the next election (with Gordon Brown running the show).  In that time they have been the longest serving and most successful Labour government ever.  Through their centrist policies Blair's government has succeeded in reducing poverty, cutting unemployment, increasing investments in education, combating global warming, having policies that keep interest rates low, and raising the levels of home ownership in England.  

God, it would be terrible if Bayh were elected and had that kind of a track record.  Who would want that?  It would be so much better to follow some loser like Edwards, Clark, or Feingold into one more heave and have another electoral loss.


by ditka on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:53:19 AM EST

Interest Group Politics (none / 0)

Actually the biggest thing Blair did was break the "interest group" hold on the Labour Party.  Sound familiar?  This is a key suggestion for the Dems in Crashing the Gate.  

The Dems have seen the problems with relying on interests groups to set the party policies with races like Chris Shays where a number of key liberal interest groups are endorsing Shays because he is good on their issues.  The party's priorities don't always conincide with the interest groups.  It is the right of the interest groups to endorse whomever they want but if they are going to endorse pols of both parties they should NOT be in the "room" when the party sets its priorities.  It is that simple!


by John Mills on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 10:03:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Better would be a government like the PSOE in Spain: troops out of Irak, gay marriage, equal representation man-woman in the cabinet, peace process with ETA, critics to Israel for the abuse of power against palestinians and lebaneses, and all of this without any lost of economic impulse, this is the real deal, no DINOs here.


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

And how did he break that "interest group" hold?  He moved the party to the center.  He didn't just say I am breaking away but keep the same policies as the interest groups.  He advocated new, more centrist policies.  That is a big difference.  


by ditka on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 10:12:33 AM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

He also had party rules changed that removed certain interest groups from party decision making committees/functions.  That was one of the reasons he was able to reposition the party.


by John Mills on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:42:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards (3.00 / 1)

Knocking Edwards for no "accomplishments" is so ... Democratic Party of us.  People don't vote for laundry lists for Prez: check the current occupant.  If they "like" you more than the other guy, you win.  Edwards-Clark is a winner for us, barring McCain.  And Chris, you are whistling past the graveyard on Mr. Straight Talk.  The GOP ALWAYS goes with whoever's turn it is ... and once they realize their only hope is McCain, he will get the nod, and we are dead.  Rudy would simply be unacceptable to the God-squad goobers; McCain can fake it enough.


by tuffie on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 10:47:35 AM EST

Re: Edwards Has No Gravitas (none / 0)

"Knocking Edwards for no "accomplishments" is so ... Democratic Party of us."

There is some truth to this but it is also very rare for a one term former Senator with no major accomplishments to get elected President.  There is a reason Govs generally win Presidential elections and part of it is their management experience and the ability to build a record of accomplishment.  

George W. Bush had one of the thinist resumes ever for a person elected President and he is the first President in my memory who has actually been called "incompetent."  Lots of people disliked Reagan and Bush I's policies but they weren't called incompetent.

I think that after 8 years of Bush people are going to be looking for some gravitas in their next President and frankly Edwards, as much I like his policy stands and charisma, doesn't have it.  McCain does which is why he worries me.


by John Mills on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

I hope weenieboy Edwards does us all a favor and fades away.  He was a horrible candidate in 2004 and hasn't demonstrated anything new to indicate he's in the big league (remember the poor showing during the Cheney debate and his asinine handling of the gay Mary question).  ALSO, we can't have any of the bozos who voted FOR the war on the national ticket in 2008.  Let's leave this lemon out.


by flamingmoderate on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 02:03:10 PM EST

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (none / 0)

Here is a good point. Edwards vote for the war, there are other guys without that handicap.


What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
by santos on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Acceptable / Unacceptable in 2008 (3.00 / 1)

I was perplexed by Edwards' selection as a running mate and bemused by his evidently sincere interest in pursuing the presidency afterwards, but the last year or so I take him more seriously. He's reached out to unions, a neglected core constituency. He's talking about poverty in America, a core Democratic concern. And when he campaigns for himself he sets a good example to other 2008 hopefuls, and campaigns also for local candidates in the states he visits.  I've warmed to Edwards a lot.  

I'm uneasy about Clark's one-sided background, and I am surely not the only Democrat who does not see a military uniform as a reassuring emblem for a Democratic presidential contender. The last military man who got really close to the Presidency was Alexander Haig, who tended to forget that there even was Constitutional law governing presidential succession. I think General Clark could give a civilian contender the same boost General Powell gave George W. Bush, as a prominent member of the Shadow Cabinet forming around a winning candidate. I'd be thrilled to see him in the Cabinet at State, at Defense, or starting to repair the damage Bolton has done at the United Nations (a Cabinet-level appointment).

Someone upthread says, talking about how difficult it is to evaluate candidates at early points in the cycle,

I also thought that Bush was stupid but harmless.

That gives me pause, because it's my current view of Huckabee. He strikes me as a dim-witted chucklehead who could only be in contention because the GOP is floundering for possibilities and he's term-limited. I don't really think he comes into contention if George Allen retains his senate seat; but if Allen is beaten in 2006 he becomes a less attractive Presidential contender and his supporters may look around for someone like Huckabee.

Very likely a lot will change. Some names will drop off and some names will be added. Bayh probably should have been polled among these, because he has the third-largest warchest (according to something I read the other day) and his limitless ambition is well-known.  I don't want him, but it would be good to have some measure of how many might find him "acceptable."

Does anyone else find it mortifying that it is the 21st century now, but there are only two women in the list, and one of them's not running?  


by Christopher Walker on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:50:05 PM EST


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