Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Strategy

One of the reasons there is so much angst over what Obama said about Democrats and religion today is that, in Peter Daou's formulation, Obama's comments lend tri-partisan support (Democrats, Republicans and the media) to a narrative that Democrats are hostile toward people of faith. This tri-partisan support will result in a "closing of the triangle" against Democrats where it become conventional wisdom that Democrats are hostile to people of faith. This has been how the DLC has managed to reify ever anti-Democratic narrative it likes within the national discourse. So thanks Senator Obama, for reifying this Republican-driven talking point about Democrats. Now almost everyone will think that Democrats are hostile to people of faith. Well done. Your mentor, Joe Lieberman, would be proud.

Being someone who is preoccupied with electoral strategy, I want to focus on how this narrative is perhaps even more dangerous to progressives than the rather simple "Democrats are hostile to faith" narrative it engenders. In a national environment where both parties must focus their electoral strategy on courting the most conservative and pro-Republican voter in the country, we end up with a Congress that is only responsive to the most conservative, pro-Republican voters in the country. In the electoral strategy Obama reifies with his comments, progressive don't matter. Moderates don't matter. Swing voters don't matter. Independents and Democrats don't matter. Many Republicans don't even matter. The only people who matter are the most conservative people in the country. A Congress that is only responsive and responsible to those voters will, no matter who is in charge of Congress, end up producing the most right-wing legislation imaginable.

As an electoral strategist I respect, Tom Schaller, wrote to me in an email today:
Imagine for a second that, after the 2000 election in which his candidate finished second, the main media narrative was that Karl Rove needed to figure out a way to reach out to, say, unmarried, professional, college-educated women of color living in cities and suburbs of blue states. He'd have been laughed out of his party and DC.

Yet somehow, conversely, the prevailing narrative that people like Obama are ratifying is that if Democrats don't bow and scrape to white, evangelical, married, non-college educated white males in the south and rural communities---well, then they're tactically stupid, myopic, and out-of-touch. (And, because women, seculars, urban-surburbanites, college grads, and minorities are an increasing share of the electorate with each passing cycle, the "jessica alba vote" is at least a growth market, whereas the bubbas are a shrinking market.)

Rove loses an election, surveys the situation, and concludes that the GOP left 4 million evangelicals off the table and they need to find and mobilize them. We lose four years later and conclude that, um, we need to talk to evangelicals. In other words, they lose and turn to their base, but we lose and turn to...THEIR base! Am I losing my mind or is this about as absurdly upside-down ass-backwards as possible?
Obama has not only helped close the triangle on the notion that Democrats are hostile to religion, he has closed the triangle on who Democrats should appeal to in order to win elections. This danger of this is that in a nation where the only voters who matter to both parties are conservative evangelicals, then the only legislation we will ever get will be of the sort that appeals to conservative evangelicals. This will be the case no matter which party is in charge of Congress. Thus, closing the triangle on electoral strategy in this manner completely obliterates progressivism itself.

This is how the "all powerful conservative base" narrative after the 2004 election was not a success for Democrats. Whatever impact it had on making Republicans seem extreme (which I am sure has helped to drop their support among Independents below 30%), when this narrative is reified by Democrats it helps create a permanent conservative governing structure in America no matter which party is in charge. All of the recent media about the rise of the progressive movement, specifically in relation to the Connecticut Senate primary and the netroots, had gone a long way toward convincing Democrats and the media that in order to govern, it is necessary to pay attention to progressives. This is the sort of narrative that will help produce progressive legislation. However, when Democrats start wallowing in post-2004 Republican talking points like Obama did today, we wipe all of that good work away. We will never get progressive legislation in this country unless politicians think they have to be responsive to the progressive movement.

It is particularly frustrating and disgusting that Senator Obama, whose candidacy succeeded largely because it was supported by the nascent progressive movement in Illinois back in 2004, does not believe he has to be responsive to the people who helped put him in office in the first place. I was in Illinois during the 2004 primary when Obama was still single digits in polls. I saw the progressive movement, including the local Chicago netroots, rally behind him. I read that his strategy was to court African-Americans and white liberals. However, now he has tossed many of those progressives aside. I guess that is what happens when soon-to-be ex-Senator Lieberman becomes your mentor. Hopefully, after August 8th, Obama can start taking lessons on how to be a progressive from someone else besides Lieberman.



Display:


Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (none / 0)

Am I missing something? Why is Senator Obama #1 on the MyDD hit parade? Isn't there a midterm coming up? Are the Republicans all on vacation? What gives? Did I miss the memo?


Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:39:02 PM EST

Winning 70% of the vote wasn't enough for Obama (3.00 / 4)

I think he wants to win Alan Keyes's vote too.

What Obama is really doing here is classic triangulation. He is saying all those OTHER Democrats don't respect religion but I do. This is the kind of triangulation that kept Bill Clinton in office for a 2nd term while creating an enduring Republican majority in the Congress, and then handed them the Presidency in 2000. It creates media narratives that absolutely kill our chances.

Thanks so much Barack for putting yourself above your Party. Lieberman WOULD be proud. Maybe he could work for you after he loses his Senate seat.


"We are building a political movement - not one that wields the power of lobbyists and corporate interests, but the power of millions... who seek change." -Dean
by Jim in Chicago on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:41:57 PM EST

Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)


MR. RUSSERT: So the majority of the Democratic Senate is out of touch with the American people?

SEN. FEINGOLD: Yes, it is at this point. Those who vote against bringing the troops home don't get it. They're not out there enough. They're not listening to the people. Frankly, they're not even looking at the polls. I saw two or three polls, Tim, in the last week that showed that a majority of the American people favor a timetable. So it is to our--you know, we lost in 2000, we lost in 2002, we lost in 2004. Why don't we try something different, like listening to the American people?

Yes, Obama, Feingold, Bayh, Lieberman, all need back off and work to unify instead.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:42:09 PM EST

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (3.00 / 1)

No, for Feingold defended progressive legislation, not regressive policy and a regressive incorporation of religious tropes in political discourse.  Feingold is alerting his colleagues of a desire for change, while Obama is steering the party toward the stagnant right while reiterating and thereby reifying Republican tropes.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

There is nothing particularly "progressive" about timetables and withdrawal (as there was in the matter of invading in the first place). It's a part tactical, and part ethical question.

In fact, Feingold was clueless (or wrong) in my opinion on Iraq:


MR. RUSSERT: ...Are you concerned, as is Senator Clinton, that if we pulled out of Iraq completely by the end of next year, and it did tip into total chaos and become a haven for terrorists or for al-Qaeda, it would be a major threat to the United States?

  SEN. FEINGOLD: Sure. If all those things happen. But, Tim, that's what's going on right now. This parade of horribles about things that might happen? What's happening right now in Iraq is chaos. I've been there twice-two years in a row with Senator McCain and on one occasion with Senator Clinton. What's happening right now is chaotic. What's happening right now is that terrorists are using Iraq as a training ground. So this idea that if we leave, things will get worse, is not clear. What we know is that what's happening now is really awful and is depleting America's strength.

If it is "not clear" how things may pan out once we leave, wouldn't it be irresponsible to leave? Not a statesmanly response there by Feingold.

I have a better answer: put a plan out there to train enough troops to at least make Iraqis capable of defending themselves (and not collapse), and leave.

----

I am not going to defend Obama's casting of his opinion, but it is elitist to deem that all references to God in public discourse are regressive.

I am generally for "church and state separation", but I also oppose hard and fast Marxist-style exclusion of all religious discourse from the town square.

It turns out that religion plays a big role in many people's lives (not so much in mine), and hence, IMO, people should be free to discuss either general non-denominational religious principles, try to find the common denominator of ideals among various religions. And of course, be able to fully and freely practice a religion of their choice in private (or stay atheist/agnostic, if they prefer).

Healthy dialogue makes social institutions better, not suppression thereof.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (3.00 / 0)

but I also oppose hard and fast Marxist-style exclusion of all religious discourse from the town square.

You'd have a point if there was anybody who really wanted to do that (aside the few kooks you can always find for any crazy position). It's a straw man.


by fwiffo on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

I have seen quite a few, very respected names at DKos at all, that prescribe austere exclusion of religious discourse in all things political or public.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

Unless you understand Marxism, I recommend you refrain from using that appellation.

Thanks.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

I think I understand Marxism at the conceptual level (but not at a well-read level)

My reference was not Marxism per se, but to the communist Soviet Union, where the practice and discourse of religion was shunned from the public sphere.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

And apologists for the former Soviet Union regularly post at DailyKos?  


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

No, I have read many people at DKos argue for strictly prohibiting anything religious in the public sphere (i.e. otuside of homes and places of worship).

Marxism obviously played a role in the communist experiments around the world.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

There are profound differences between secular democracies and Communist societies.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

which secular democracy shunned religious discourse from the public sphere completely and by dictum?


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:26:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (3.00 / 1)

I do not believe we are utilizing the same vocabulary.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:28:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

sec·u·lar adj.: Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body

This works for me.

Secular Democracy: A democracy not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body

The above doesn't preclude talking about religion (while giving no special privilege for any particular religion or the other).


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

but it is not predicated on religious principles, and you will notice the e.u. and east asia find our political discourse very bizarre, as we constantly invoke christian terms.  and notice that countries such as france are much more religious, much more catholic, than the united states.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:50:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (3.00 / 1)

Even that represents the greatest extreme that you'll see, and it doesn't come close to what was going on in the Soviet Union. If your religious behavior got in any sort of conflict with the state, they threw you in a gulag. If you were lucky.

You've basically violated the Red corallary to Godwin's law, so you'd probably best take a step back and realize what sort of comparison you're actually making.


by fwiffo on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (3.00 / 1)

No. Like Dean, Feingold is trying to get Democrats to DISTINGUISH themselves from Republicans. Obama is saying we should be more like the other party, which ostentatiously pretends to care about the concerns of religious people (while doing things that would make Jesus retch).


"We are building a political movement - not one that wields the power of lobbyists and corporate interests, but the power of millions... who seek change." -Dean
by Jim in Chicago on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

On the issue of religious discourse, if Obama thinks that Democrats should not run from the religion, and it turns out to be akin to what Republicans do (actually, Republicans don't enbrace religion, they just demagogue it for their benefit; Capitalism/Greedism needs to foster religious and other such groups to win elections; that's their little secret).

I remind the readers of Obama's Audicity of Hope.

My general read is that Obama is trying to preach a message of unification. If he is doing it sincerely (not purely driven with an eye towards 2008), and he is also working to make Congressional Democrats vote more consistently progressive (as he is; Obama ranks 6th in Progressivepunch.org ratings, where as Feingold ranks 19th) behind the scenes, I would support an approach.

I am in fact a strong critic of triangulation tactics (please see here for an example of the kind of pro-active approach I'd like to see Democrats take), but I don't yet see that Obama was trying to do that in his speech (full text).

I find that the things that Feingold has been saying since he started taking a 2008 run more seriously to be divisive and not helpful.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

Perhaps you view it as divisive, as you neglect to consider the two very different directions Obama and Feingold hope to move the party.  


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

The only problem with that argument (where you seem to imply that he is trying to move the party it towards a more liberal/progressive direction) is that, Obama's voting record (6th) is apparently more progressive (although it is much shorter) than Feingold's (19th). Link again.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:35:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

That is one score card, and this does not account for public appearances, advocacy, floor speeches, etc.

In fact, I find the scorecard misleading.

Feingold is obviously much more progressive than Obama.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please explain in detail (none / 0)

why you find progressivepunch.org "misleading".

Something better than: "X is obviously much more progressive han Y".


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please explain in detail (none / 0)

they do not measure every vote in the Senate, only specific votes.  this does not consider many factors, such as the following: whether or not Wisconsin received appropriations; how other progressives in the Senate voted on a specific nomination or peice of legislation; whether or not their was a problematic clause in such a bill; the sources of the organization's funding; the candidates a specific organization desires to tout; public appearances; any amendments a Senator has offered to weaken an egregiously conservative bill; failed resolutions a Senator may have proposed that has stimulated public debate; the role of a Senator in primaries; and the votes on specific amendments.  Shall I continue?


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please explain in detail (none / 0)

You may continue, but only if you name one progressive scoring system out there that is free of ALL of your complaints.

I find them to be the most thorough and most detailed treatment of progressiveness scoring out there, with full details on many bills.

I invite the reader to explore their site in detail here (you can click down to specific politician's pages, their category rankings, all the way down to specific votes).


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please explain in detail (3.00 / 0)

I've explained before why I think Progressive Punch's methodology is flawed, and I'll state it again, from their website:

"After going through a number of steps and gyrations, we came up with a list of six hard-core progressive United States Senators (6% of that body) and 36 hard-core progressive United States Representatives (about 8-9% of that body). The algorithm that we've used to come up with these progressive scores is that we take ANY VOTE in which a majority of those progressives--so in the House say, if there were no absences, it would be 19 of the 36--voted in contradistinction to a majority of the Republican caucus then that vote then qualifies for the database. The same process is used in the Senate"

So, if 4 out of 6 "hardcore progressives" favor chewing Trident after eating, that's the Progressive position! (Yes, I know, the majority of Republicans would also have to oppose it, just making a little attempt at a funny.)

You are right, though, there is no better scorecard system out there; they are all flawed and, frankly, arbitrary. I'd never use the rating a politician got from any organization to justify supporting them.

Anyhow, I just needed to delurk for this; I don't like Progressive Punch's methodology, and am quite tired of seeing people use it as a measure of progressiveness. Politics isn't baseball, you can't look at a scorecard and see if Feingold or Clinton or Obama got more hits.

BTW: Can anyone tell me who the "hardcore progressives" are? I can't recall every seeing them listed on the site...is it just the top six senators on the list?  


by Paul Simon Democrat on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 08:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In other words, (none / 0)

settle disputes and disagreements in private (and primaries), but present a unified front in public and general election. That's the meaning behind having a party in the first place.

One more instance where Feingold tried to benefit at the expense of the party was when:

1. he announced his censure motion (which had no real consequences) on a sunday talk show, without telling anyone in the party leadership

2. two days later, he critiqued the Democrats as being "Cowards" for not merrily and eagerly jumping on the censure bandwagon.

Lest the reader get me wrong, I like Feingold.

I used to like him a lot more (in fact, I used to consider him one of my favorite senators about this time last year, as I posted right here at myDD) before he started posturing as in the above, in order to improve his 2008 chances (and to curry "netroots"' favor, IMO).


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In other words, (none / 0)

You misunderstood Bowers's diary.  I recommend you reread it.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I stopped reading once I saw Bowers' (none / 0)

"Your mentor, Joe Lieberman, would be proud." snark on Obama.

Mind you, I was utterly disappointed when Obama endorsed Lieberman. But calling Lieberman Obama's mentor is beyond pale.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I stopped reading once I saw Bowers' (none / 0)

On a related note, please see this comment of mine: Lieberman's War-Mongering: more evidence at DKos.

I don't like Lieberman's trumpeting of the Neocon/PNAC agenda, I support Lamont strongly, I didn't like Obama endorsing Lieberman, but calling the latter his mentor is too much.

OTOH, should Obama support Lieberman-I over Lamont-D, that would be another matter (whichever Democratic politician that does that can kiss my support for them goodbye :)).


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I stopped reading once I saw Bowers' (3.00 / 0)

Every incoming senator is paired with a mentor who has been in office a while.  This isn't some rhetorical trick of Bowers'.  Lieberman is actually Obama's mentor.


by kilb on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I stopped reading once I saw Bowers' (none / 0)

From David Sirota's article-"Mr Obama Goes to Washington"

But remember, according to the New York Times it is Lieberman--one of the most conservative, prowar Democrats in Washington--who is "Obama's mentor in the Senate as part of a program in which freshman senators are paired with incumbents."

I theenk joo queet reading a leetle too early, no?

so.


by El Gato Negro on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I stopped reading once I saw Bowers' (none / 0)

OK, noted. Chris' snark is not too out of place.

I will respond to Chris' post after reading Obama's full speech, and not the excerpts that came in AP and other places. I urge you to read the same as well. Thanks.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (3.00 / 1)

The old zombie response that somehow the triangle means you can't criticizew Demcorats ever no matter what. The salient different is that you cannot criticize democrats in the same manner that Republicans criticize them. Dig up for me where Republicans are citicizing Demcorats who not supporting troop withdrawal, then then tell me what Feingold is doing the same as what Obama is doing.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:01:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (none / 0)

The salient different is that you cannot criticize democrats in the same manner that Republicans criticize them.

"Same manner" criterion is your postulation, Chris.

I argue that what Feingold did on censure was a bad thing for the Democratic party, especially given that censure is just a gesture ("formal rebuke") with no real consequence:


 "I'm amazed at Democrats ... cowering with this president's numbers so low," Feingold said.
Link

I'll post of some thoughts on specifically what Obama said once read his long speech and reflect upon it. But here is the link to the full text of Obama's speech for readers' convenience:


Obama: On Faith and Politics. And Alan Keyes.

Sen. Barack Obama this morning talks about religion and says Democrats need to better acknowledge the power of faith.

Here's his speech.

Remarks of Senator Barack Obama

Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Washington, DC

Wednesday, June 28th, 2006

Read the speech here

I found one mention where I think he should have worded it differently:


Conservative leaders, from Falwell and Robertson to Karl Rove and Ralph Reed, have been all too happy to exploit this gap, consistently reminding evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design.

I would have said: "consistently and falsely telling evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church"


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The difference is... (3.00 / 1)

Obama is attacking a straw man borrowed from the Republicans.

Feingold is attacking the disconnect and timidity of the Democratic leadership, a disconnect and timidity that is well documented.


by Kumar on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The difference is... (none / 0)

Please see my response to Jim in Chicago above. Thanks.


by NuevoLiberal on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't Feingold done something similar? (3.00 / 0)

At least Feingold is reaching out to one longtime Democratic constituency that the party itself appear s to be running away from. And Obama's speech is just another sign of that.


Terrance Heath
Washington, DC
http://www.republicoft.com
by TerranceDC on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 07:34:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (3.00 / 0)

It's not just what he said, but the way he apparently said it. It would be fine to just say "We want to reach out to people who mistakenly voted for Republicans in the past." I can't imagine what was on his mind if he implied that Democrats are less religious. What the hell is going on here?


by blues on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:55:16 PM EST

Pluralism (3.00 / 1)

Obama is fond of pluralism.  But pluralism is arguably a neoconservative postmodern reaction against the progressive narratives of development, change and an endless forward movement that found the Enlightenment in its many manifestations.  Pluralism is also a symptom of the grand leveling of all phenomena that has resulted in the prodigious expansion of commodity culture into all spheres of life.  It has also dimantled boundaries separating key categories such as art and kitsch, literature and kitsch and politics and religion, enabling a cynical anything goes policy.  What is needed at this crucial moment is a defense of the narratives founding progressive politics, not a liquidation of them.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 01:55:31 PM EST

Re: Pluralism (none / 0)

Excellent, excellent point.  Maybe you can post a diary expanding on this paragraph?  Love the last sentence.


by djinn on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 05:03:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The splinter in your neighbor's eye... (none / 0)

I have to be honest, you guys are unreal. At the mere mention of the word "God" you start frothing at the mouth and writing things like "Obama is dead to me." You are no better than the Religious Right that you decry when you try to hold up a narrow ideal of progressivism that is based on the exclusion of faith in the public circle. People are drawn to progressive causes for a number of reasons. If someone reads the Gospels and decides to become part of the progressive movement BECAUSE of their faith in God are you going to tell them to go to Hell and take their religious beliefs and shove them?

The Religious Right is founded on BAD theology. Their is a spiritual longing in America, and frankly, many religious folks who vote Republican are waiting for the Democrats to embrace spirituality. Have you ever talked to someone whose views are 90% in line with the progressive movement but vote Republican because the Democrats are hostile to religious faith? I know I have. Perhaps it would be wise to talk to people who believe in God, instead of stereotpying them all as Religious Right nutjobs.

Obama's speech provides a good opportunity to take a look at the stereotype that Democrats are hostile to faith and take a look inward and ask if perhaps you are part of this hostility. Judging by the responses to these posts, he has been 1000000% correct in stating that Democrats are hostile to faith. You all criticize the Right for hating liberals, but then you turn around and direct your rage toward anything religious.

How can be you so mindful of the splinter in your neighbor's eye when you ignore the board in your own?  


by manonfire on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:14:13 PM EST

Re: The splinter in your neighbor's eye... (none / 0)

You missed the point of Bowers's diary.  I recommend you reread it.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The splinter in your neighbor's eye... (none / 0)

At the mere mention of the word "God" you start frothing at the mouth and writing things like "Obama is dead to me."

The problem is not mentioning God so much as how the issue was allegedly framed.  The AP reporter framed his speech as bashing Democrats and saying we're a bunch of intolerant moral failures.  People are violently opposed to Liebermanesque triangulations, hanging us out to dry for political gain.

Now, as I mention below, I do not at all believe that's what Obama was saying.  The AP reporter spun it how HE wanted it spun -- it's pretty gross.

But you, manonfire, have in turn misinterpreted the anger here, or the majority of it.  Please read the posts again...


by sakitume on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is never either/or (none / 0)

Obama didn't say that the only people that Dems should reach out to are religious people.  He said Dems should recognize that there are many people in this country to whom religion is important, and it is a mistake to say that religious values have no place in the public square.  In part this is because about half of these folks are wither Democrats or open to voting for Democrats.

Obama was raised by his Kansas grandparents.  He surely also recognizes the importance of Black churches in the civil rights movement.  And the  there are the religious groups that formed the core of the peace movement, and Catholic social justice adherents.  All of these are part of the progressive tradition.  It is a mistake to equate religion exclusively with white southern Baptists, as many people do.  Moreover, there are not so many voters out there who are favorable to the Dems that we can afford to deliberately alienate any of them.

I understand the point of Matt and Chris' posts was to slam Obama for criticizing Dems and for reinforcing the image that Dems are hostile to religion.  But Matt and Chris have just ctiticized another Dem and reinforced it themselves, by belittling Obama's address to a religious-based group.

Aren't there some Republicans we could bash instead today?  I think having Lieberman as the Designated Hittee is good enough.


by Mimikatz on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is never either/or (3.00 / 0)

that's exactly why this is a shellgame. It's not about faith. it's about the christo-conservative version of faith.


by bruh21 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (3.00 / 1)

Are you SURE that Obama says what the AP reporter says he says?  Because when you read the entire address and get the proper context, I don't see a Liebermanesque bashing of Democrats.

I think y'all have been snookered by lazy reporting.  You should remember to not trust anyone from the AP!  The quotes are accurate but taken out of context.

Obama's point is not that we Democrats have no sense of morality but because we don't speak them loudly and clearly, in part because we -- religious and secular Democrats alike -- have been taught that it's somehow inappropriate or are otherwise uncomfortable with that sort of language.  He's saying we shouldn't avoid the discussion.

I think Obama's incorrect on several points -- it is madness to reason with Rapture-besotted fundamentalists, for example -- but he does challenge "those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible."  I leave you with this passage, which naturally the AP didn't see fit to mention, let alone print.

Even if we did have only Christians within our borders, who's Christianity would we teach in the schools? James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Levitacus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage so radical that it's doubtful that our Defense Department would survive its application?

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

This may be difficult for those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice.


by sakitume on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:18:24 PM EST

Dean was always held responsible (3.00 / 0)

for the way the press twisted his words: "Even if he was right, he should have known better than to say..." was a constant refrain of the 2004 campaign. Why should as saavy a politician as Obama be held to a lower standard? I think he knew how his speech was likely to be reported.


"We are building a political movement - not one that wields the power of lobbyists and corporate interests, but the power of millions... who seek change." -Dean
by Jim in Chicago on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:37:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (3.00 / 1)

Hey, all that's fine.  But did his speech really have to include these paragraphs, in which he positions himself in contrast to the omnipresent "some"?

Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, some liberals dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith.

Such strategies of avoidance may work for progressives when the opponent is Alan Keyes. But over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people, and join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.
[Long justification of the importance of religion]

More fundamentally, the discomfort of some progressives with any hint of religion has often prevented us from effectively addressing issues in moral terms. Some of the problem here is rhetorical - if we scrub language of all religious content, we forfeit the imagery and terminology through which millions of Americans understand both their personal morality and social justice. Imagine Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address without reference to "the judgments of the Lord," or King's I Have a Dream speech without reference to "all of God's children." Their summoning of a higher truth helped inspire what had seemed impossible and move the nation to embrace a common destiny.

[...]

But what I am suggesting is this - secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglas, Abraham Lincoln, Williams Jennings Bryant, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King - indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history - were not only motivated by faith, but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause. To say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity; our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Moreover, if we progressives shed some of these biases, we might recognize the overlapping values that both religious and secular people share when it comes to the moral and material direction of our country. We might recognize that the call to sacrifice on behalf of the next generation, the need to think in terms of "thou" and not just "I," resonates in religious congregations across the country. And we might realize that we have the ability to reach out to the evangelical community and engage millions of religious Americans in the larger project of America's renewal.

[...]

Who in any leadership position is doing this?  Why can he not name names?  Notice how he can name names when it comes to the people he likes.

Instead, he just calls out "some", and disparages the weaknesses of that "some", which is a classic strawman rhetorical tactic.  Obama is triangulating, pulling a Sistah-Souljah on some imaginary group that really doesn't have any power.


by paperwight on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:43:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (none / 0)

I'm with sakitume, nuevoliberal and, to some extent, mononfire on this one.  

From what I read, it seems that Obama's speech was fundamentally constructive, but misreported.  Maybe he should have been more "politically savvy," but when does "politically savvy" become just another version of "over-managed" and "over-controlled" and afraid to speak some truth, because the Republican noise machine combined with the MSM will distort reality and what's said?    

I don't know the answer to that in general or in this particular case, but I do think its a gray area that's worth noting but doesn't merit the claims of mortal political sin I'm picking up in this thread.    

Chris says:

"In the electoral strategy Obama reifies with his comments, progressive don't matter. Moderates don't matter. Swing voters don't matter. Independents and Democrats don't matter. Many Republicans don't even matter. The only people who matter are the most conservative people in the country."

That's not what I hear Obama saying. Not even close, at least based on the actual quotes in the story and sakitume's excerpts.


by mitchipd on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Closes Daou's (none / 0)

Well, I'd trust Daou more if he hadn't just signed on to work for Hillary Clinton. Leaving that aside, in partial defense of Obama and Dean and the other Dems who want so badly to appeal to "people of faith," (Hey guess what, "people of faith want the troops come home!), I think the goal is a good one, since most people are "people of faith," but the way you talk about faith is to simply talk about faith, preferably in a natural way. You don't go on nutjob Pat Robertson's show. You certainly don't go on nutjob Pat Roberton's show and say, "The truth is, we have an enormous amount in common with the Christian community, and particularly with the evangelical Christian community." Amount in common? Shit, most Demoncrats are Christian, and hundreds of thousands of Dems--including the the patriarch of the party, Jimmy Cater-are evangelical. It's like Ken Melhman trying to reach out to blacks by speaking at a Nation of Islam rally.


by david mizner on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 02:50:02 PM EST

Stop Destroying Obama (none / 0)

I've heard Democrats from John Kerry to Joe Biden to Hillary Clinton to Tom Harkin to Ted Kennedy talk about how Democrats need to get back in touch with faith voters. I agree that Obama should not have said this because it does help drive a narrative, but the constant attacks on MyDD are getting ridiculous. There have been far too many attacks on Obama on this site in the last couple of months, when there are other Democrats, and Republicans, who we should be focusing on, who need attacking.


by ahf8 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:11:36 PM EST

Re: Stop Destroying Obama (none / 0)

this diary was in support of him.


by bruh21 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Destroying Obama (none / 0)

sorry wrong diary


by bruh21 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Destroying Obama (none / 0)

But the diary is very important.  Perhaps you should reread it if you believe it is frivolous.


by illinois062006 on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (none / 0)

In the electoral strategy Obama reifies with his comments, progressive don't matter. Moderates don't matter. Swing voters don't matter. Independents and Democrats don't matter. Many Republicans don't even matter. The only people who matter are the most conservative people in the country.

Sounds like Florida and the Miami Cubans.


With Democrats Lieberman goes for the jugular. With Republicans he goes for the lips.
by Sitkah on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:39:05 PM EST

Re: Obama (none / 0)

Except that the above statement ("the only people who matter are the most conservative") is completely wrong.  Obama was addressing a non-denominational, non-partisan group of moderate to liberal Christians who view fighting poverty as a moral cause. It was these people (and yes, of course, Democrats in general) whom he was encouraging to voice their moral vision.

Again, if you look at the speech solely through the AP's eyes -- if you read just the inflammatory headline -- it seems that's what Obama was saying.  But nobody should believe the AP these days.

We've been Pickler'd!


by sakitume on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (3.00 / 1)

FWIW, the Post article badly misrepresents Obama's speech.  Obama is making a speech in general about the role religion plays in the public life, but he does not ever say anything like "Democrats should be courting the evangelical vote".  

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2006/06/ obama_on_faith_and_politics_an.html

The Post is setting us against each other.  I withdraw many of my earlier comments:  Obama is not trying to grab the center by stepping our the heads of atheists.  I still think he says some improper things, but he also says very useful and accurate things, like


"Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all."


by RickD on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 03:48:19 PM EST

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (none / 0)

Quick correction -- this is an AP article, although the Post may have written the headline.  Otherwise, agree completely.


by sakitume on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 04:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Comments (3.00 / 1)

I can appreciate the senator's comments (not just the clips the AP reported).  Living in Alabama, politics and religion are, unfortunately, often inseparable.  When discussing politics with my conservative friends, the talk is often turned to religion.  Especially in the south, most people determine their politics through their faith.  I'm not saying it's a good thing and I hope it changes, but that's the way it is - at least here.

Unfortunately just repeating the separation of church and state doesn't work.  With most in the south, I fear that political vies will be changed through religious views.

I think Senator Obama is ecouraging us to fight for real faith.  The kind that drives civil rights movements and fights for social justice.  I think he realizes the right has perverted religion and twisted it.  And we must be willing to fight for it in order to change it.


by ANewHope on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 05:56:27 PM EST

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (3.00 / 1)

Chris, interesting post on the Obama speech. I regret I only saw it now, this late in your string. The speech - as delivered and not spun by the MSM - was very solid. I have re-read it looking for the points you have critiqued - like a proposal from Senator Obama that we should "bow and scrape" for votes among evangelicals. I couldn't find it because he didn't say it. In fact, the speech is a refreshing return to first principles as proposed by John Halpin and Ruy Texeira in a recent piece in the American Prospect. Rather than waiting for our opponents to define us, Democrats should state clearly what it is we stand for. Another refreshing effort on this was the statement written and signed by 55 Catholic House Democrats. There was little the right could say to the House statement, left to say either that they used the wrong words or they didn't really mean what they said. I suspect there will be even less than can say about Senator Obama's speech. Their old standbys don't seem to hold water anymore as clearly shown in this recent Pew survey which showed that traditional Republican hot-button issues rank behind issues such as poverty and foreign policy in terms of relative importance to most Americans. The bottom line from Senator Obama and the House Democrats: Democrats are people of faith, but people of faith with "A hope that we can live with one another in a way that reconciles the beliefs of each with the good of all."
by Denis McDonough on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 06:43:53 PM EST

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (3.00 / 3)

Pray tell, then - about whom is Obama speaking in this sentence?

"Secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering the public square."

Who ever might those naughty "secularists" be!

Sorry, but this type of thinking reinforces the idea that somehow there is a dirty band of fundamentalist secularists operating out there, who want to impose their godlessness on America. No such group exists, of course, but by pretending it does, Obama helps reinforce the myth that this nasty bunch exists.


by DavidNYC on Wed Jun 28, 2006 at 09:44:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (none / 0)

I think it's helpful to distinguish between the strategy of making the right-wing fundamentalist base all-powerful; and making the white red-rural populist vote a top priority.

The former leads to the issues you cite.
The latter need not be a problem for progressives, because progressive policies can also be populist policies, and the progressive-populist alliance is a viable electoral winner.

Part of speaking to the populist red-rural base does indeed involve celebrating core values, and being publically proud of one's religious or spiritual or simply fundamental values.
So in that sense, yes, reach out to people who  feel and hear things in a particular way.

Pandering to extremist insertion of specific religious tenets into the private lives of Americans is another matter.


by jimpol on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 11:03:32 AM EST

Obama is a Man of Faith - let's celebrate him (none / 0)

I'm a first-time poster who linked through Kurtz's Media Notes column in the Washington Post.

I must first stay that taking criticism is rarely easy - I'm not that good at it myself.  But Obama has a real point, one that's reinforced far too often by netroots posts such as this one.

I searched the MyDD archives for religion.  A quick scan of the first 30 results turned up an overwhelming majority of posts that did nothing more than critique the GOP for casting the Democrats as anti-religion.

Where are the people of faith who support the Democrats?  Where are the blogs from people who have been moved to great works by their faith?  

I'll tell you where they are.  They don't want to touch organizations like this with a 10-foot pole.  They're disillusioned by the fact that when Obama speaks up about his faith and how it's helped him become the great man who he is, all we hear from the left is how he's targeting evangelicals.

I am a Christian democrat.  I am not an evangelical.  I admire Obama for who he is.  As progressives, we'd well served to examine ourselves for hostility towards religion by focusing on the Falwell/Robertson types who corrupt it.  Currently, we can't seem to get past immediately sniping at those who suggest that we, as a group, could do more to encourage confident expressions of faith.


by Alamo on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 02:12:26 PM EST

Re: Chris Bowers Closes Daou's Triangle (none / 0)

My problem here is that Bowers is doing far more to reinforce this negative stereotype of Democrats than Obama is:

"In the electoral strategy Obama reifies with his comments, progressive don't matter. Moderates don't matter. Swing voters don't matter. Independents and Democrats don't matter."

All because Obama "said the party must compete for the support of evangelicals and other churchgoing Americans"?

There is nothing there to suggest that Obama doesn't mean evangelical and churchgoing progressives, moderates, swing voters, Independents and Democrats.  The stereotype Chris is reinforcing is that evangelicals and church going Americans must by nature be conservative, and pro-Republican, does far more to "close the triangle" against the Democratic Party than anything Obama has said here.

I agree with some of what Obama has said and disagree with some of it.  I think he is right that "Not every mention of God in public is a breach" and that "Having voluntary student prayer groups using school property to meet should not be a threat".  I think he is wrong that "It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase `under God'."  I suspect many school children are far more perceptive than he gives them credit for.  I have no doubt though that this is what he believes.

Mainly, though I think he is right about the need for Democrats to engage in dialog.  He is right here:
"we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse. ... In other words, if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons will continue to hold sway"
and here:
"I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people and join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy."

And frankly, the left has not done enough to engage in this debate.  Instead of waiting for the right to advocate religious proselytization, such as mentions of God or displays of the Ten Commandments, Democrats should be urging that more be done to teach the core fundamental moral values which are at the heart of all major modern religious traditions; the basic universal humanism that is essential to the survival of any civil society.

We should lament the lack of such core moral values in our increasingly corrupt institutions, and insist that is all of our best interests that we do a better job of teaching our future generations of leaders these essential values, in a non-religious, non-sectarian way.  And we might find that many evangelical and church going liberals and moderates might agree that this is more important than the pulic promotion of any particular religious customs or traditions.  We might then perhaps even persuade Mr. Obama.


by acerimusdux on Sat Jul 01, 2006 at 09:45:23 AM EST

Re: Obama Closes Daou's Triangle On Electoral Stra (none / 0)

j1 j2 j3 j4 j5 j6 j7 j8 j9 j10 j11 j12 j13 j14 j15 j16


by tino on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 09:50:07 AM EST


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